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Loganmac[edit]

Loganmac (talk · contribs) is one of several accounts of a decent age who has since become solely a single purpose account to attempt to skew the Gamergate controversy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) article into one in the favor of the "gamergate" crowd. In his most recent actions, he has decided to screencap a thread on the article's talk page and then post about it to his Twitter and on Reddit in an attempt to discredit the thread's author and Wikipedia's ability to cover the subject of the article. Bosstopher, the author of the thread, requested that Loganmac post corrections regarding his opinion which Loganmac has misinterpreted and Loganmac has refused basically citing first amendment rights. It is clear that Loganmac is no longer here to write an encyclopedia but further an off-site conflict, as the last substantial edit he made that was unrelated to this dispute was in 2011. If anyone is to be able to write a neutrally written article on this subject, it has to be without these wannabe Upton Sinclairs in the mix souring the collegiate atmosphere.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

  • "We cannot punish editors for off-wiki activities" is something I hear fairly regularly. Be that as it may, having this user, essentially an SPA, participate in the GamerGate matter is of no use, and I agree: NOTHERE. Drmies (talk) 18:28, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
    • On a side note does this mean there's no rule against me going onto the reddit thread/twitter and explaining how I'm being misrepresented? Bosstopher (talk) 18:31, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
      • Correct. It's probably not a good idea, but there's no rule against it. 199.47.73.100 (talk) 18:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
        • Why would it be a bad idea? Bosstopher (talk) 18:48, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
          • Well now Ryulong has told me "learn to fucking read" on twitter https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/516651395512950785. It's twitter, he can tell me whatever he wants, I really don't care. The screencap was my own free opinion on an unrelated site. I really don't get why he got so angry about me tweeting that. And I'm not a single purpose account, I'm most active in the Spanish wikipedia, and I had another account in the 3 years "abscence" on the English wiki of which I've forgotten my password, since this account is linked to my email I looked up the password in my email. Remember that we're not accountable to what we do outside Wikipedia, just as noone was held accountable for doxxing Titanium Dragon and a trans minor editor on Wikipediocracy. Also Ryulong should know I didn't cite "first amendment rights", since I'm not from the US, which for some reason he thought I was by default Loganmac (talk) 19:00, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
            • Whilst he could have phrased it more politely, Ryulong is indeed correct about your inability to parse a section of text. No-one there is trying to "get rid" of Kain as a source, they're saying he's over-represented in the article, which given the number of times he's referenced is a pretty reasonable point. Black Kite (talk) 19:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
            • Well clearly you couldn't read what Bosstopher had to say, Loganmac. And this is the second time I've heard someone say "I have an account on another project where I'm more active" in this debate. What account do you use there because I'm sure you can be allowed to rename your local account to match that one so they're linked. And this is entirely unrelated to whatever the fuck Titanium Dragon did. Your presence on this website is now disruptive, now that you've decided to take your concerns of it to other websites rather than attempting to discuss it here.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:09, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
          • Because nothing productive will come of descending into their gutter. Conspiratorial minded folks just aren't going to listen to your reasonable explanations. It's hard to leave bulllshit charges unanswered, but you won't be correcting the record there, you will just open yourself up for more abuse. Trust me, people have been making shit up about me for years on JFK assassination websites because of my work here, and once you get past the annoyance, you will find it all completely meaningless. You can and should, however, confront Loganmac here for his inappropriate actions. Gamaliel (talk) 20:50, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
So what you're essentially saying here is "I don't like this guy's constant reiteration of his opinion, so I'll just shut him up 'cuz he hurt muh feels off wiki". M'kay. Censorship in a nutshell. 72.78.145.144 (talk) 18:58, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
This isn't Reddit so don't throw your comments in ahead of other people's. And no. Loganmac has been disrupting the project by bringing an off-site conflict onto the site and is harassing people by doing things offsite. This isn't censorship either. This is banning someone for being a drain on the community's resources because they are solely here to stir up shit, which is the exact same reason bans of this nature are being meted out at 4chan, Reddit, and other areas. This isn't a first amendment right. The world at large has the privilege of being allowed to edit Wikipedia and in this case, Loganmac has abused that privilege by harassing people through off-site channels.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:09, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
How have I've been disrupting it? When the article wasn't blocked I didn't erase all mentions of misogyny and harassment since you're right the press has made it the focal point. I tried helping reword the leading when the article was just getting started. Also, again with the first amendment, I'm not from the US, I don't have any idea what it covers nor do I care. And I didn't harass anyone. I presented a screencap and that's it, why do you put forward that reddit link? How do you know it's me? That for me seems more like your definition of harassment Loganmac (talk) 19:31, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
You didn't have to present the screencap in the first place in the places where there's guaranteed replies. And because the Reddit link contains the same screencap from the Twitter account and it was posted by a "Logan Mac".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:34, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Why shouldn't I, I'm not allowed to critisize Wikipedia outside wikipedia? Also I wonder how did you come to find that reddit post, did you google my username?Loganmac (talk) 19:36, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
I found your reddit post and twitter post, because I am an avid reader of both the #GamerGate hashtag and [to a lesser extent] KotakuinAction. My grievance is not that you are criticizing Wikipedia outside Wikipedia, it is that your posts are lies, you know your posts are lies, but you still wont apologize or issue an amendment. As it stands I'm not sure this warrants a ban, but you've made a factual error and need to correct it. Don't be such a fuddy duddy. Bosstopher (talk) 20:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Ryulong, you should not stoop to the level of Logan and pursue disputes outside of Wikipedia. KonveyorBelt 19:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
    But is pursuing a Wikipedia dispute off of Wikipedia making 3 left turns to turn right?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:23, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
    I just spent about 5 minutes puzzling over the meaning of this comment -- I'm pretty sure this is a snarky way to say that "two wrongs make a right". A trout for both Ryulong and Logan, and let's end this petty back-and-forth. Shii (tock) 01:05, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
    All I've done is make one comment to him on Twitter and say he should be censured for having the gall to take an off-wiki dispute, bring it on wiki, and then take part of the dispute that happens on wiki back off-wiki again.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:47, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Logan should apologize to Bosstopher for misrepresenting that editor's comments, which were rather even-handed towards Kain, but beyond that I feel this is premature. We are not talking about an SPA because Logan has contributed to other articles well before getting involved in this article. He has actually not made many edits to the articles and said edits are not particularly objectionable.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 20:38, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Perhaps not in the strictest technical sense a single-purpose account, but that's quite a gap in the editing history, from Feb2011-Sept2014, suddenly showing up again to dive into gamergate. This account is singularly focused on GG right now. Tarc (talk) 00:13, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
There are so many inactive accounts that have come back to Wikipedia for the express purpose of diving head first into the Gamergate debate because the semi-protection ensures that no newly made accounts can do shit. There's a user who had a 6 year old account with 1 edit on it, made 9 more edits two weeks ago, and then began heavily editing the article. There are way too many people who have these kinds of accounts and have begun editing after years of inactivity just to make sure that their side of the debate is covered on the page, which means they want to throw out any source that they believe has some vague bias against them and only institute sources that are heavily biased in their favor, because to them that's a neutral press.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:47, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
That shows an amazing amount of patience. Has there ever been discussion of automatically disabling registered accounts that have been inactive for, say, a year or more? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:15, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
I don't think it's really patience as much as it is "Oh look I already registered here, better use it to my advantage to further this external dispute." And I don't think anything has really been said. I think I've only seen talk of it for admins who've up and vanished.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:35, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Knowing that they still allow IP's to edit, this is probably futile... but what would be the process to initiate and/or revive such a discussion? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:44, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm puzzled as to why would anyone would bring up the single-purpose account essay as a reason why someone should be banned. Is there anything in the links that Ryulong has reported of Loganmac conduct that contravenes policy? Diego (talk) 11:45, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Being a single purpose account is often a symptom of other problematic behaviors that are not desired on Wikipedia. Such as not being here to build an encyclopedia.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:19, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps, but you should treat the disease, not the symptoms. If the only "crime" is being a single-purpose account, this is not against the rules and therefore should not be the basis of a request to block a fellow editor (and certainly not merely because of content disagreements). WP:ANYONE is allowed to edit here, even if we don't like you. Diego (talk) 22:02, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Yet there is a limit to how much we allow such behavior to continue all of the time.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:04, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the links you have provided happened within a few hours, three days ago. And it doesn't help that you keep reacting to them; you could simply WP:DENY recognition and let things cool down. Diego (talk) 11:39, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Please close[edit]

Unless you have specific rule violations that Logan haa been committing, there doesn't appear to be a case to ban him. SPA or NOTHERE aren't a basis to vote to ban someone from the wiki, just because you disagree with their opinions. We have to assume good faith. 72.89.93.231 (talk) 01:27, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, NOTHERE is a reason people are banned.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:02, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
A non-policy information page based on subjective judgement of someone else's behavior? No, the reasons for banning someone are in the policies linked from there. Breaching WP:NOTSOCIALNETWORK, WP:DISRUPTIVE, Wikipedia:BATTLE, Wikipedia:NPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:DR an the other policies mentioned there are the basis why people are banned, not a mere perception that they're "NOTHERE"; you'd need to show that Loganmac has irredeemably acted against several of those and convince others that it's bad enough to merit the capital punishment. You've breached some of those yourself, so you shouldn't bee too eager to have others banned - your own behavior has been put under scrutiny as well. Diego (talk) 09:01, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
WP:BATTLE ahs been breached considering he's only been contributing to a single article and using off-site means to pursue support for his cause on site.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:13, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Fetx2002[edit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oh_Se-keun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Sun-hyung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-kyu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Min-goo_(basketball)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Floquenbeam

I'd like to ask you to interrupt access of the user Fetx2002 who continues to change the official profile to a bit different one to wiki. U-tima (talk) 08:11, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

From previous experience with these two, U-tima is abusing multiple accounts and I've blocked the account (and all the socks, I think) from editing. Fetx2002 is edit warring too (and, IMHO, is wrong about the underlying formatting issue), but I don't have the heart to block someone for edit warring when they're reverting someone freely edit warring with socks. Instead, I've protected the 2 pages for a week, in the (vain?) hope they start using the talk page. If the person behind U-tima shows up at the talk page and discusses this, I'd be inclined to not block the new account. Also, I'll let Fetc2002 know this thread is even here. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:20, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Requesting block.[edit]

I'd like to request to be blocked for 3 months becuase I cannot willingly refrain from editing, and it's just so annoying considering I have to study for academic tests and then end up editing for 3/4 of, if not the whole day. StanTheMan87 (talk) 07:12, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

StanTheMan87: Have you considered Wikibreak Enforcer? - Purplewowies (talk) 07:52, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
WikiBreak Enforcer: "User can still view/edit as an anon through their IP Address."
Not much help for the compulsive editor, imo.
Obviously the OP would need an IP block too. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 08:00, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
An associated anonblock will cover the IP issue. @StanTheMan87: Please confirm on my talk page that you want to do this and I will action.  Philg88 talk 09:16, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Hang on a minute. Shouldn't we make sure the IP isn't shared first? Even if it's a softblock, I don't know it's appropriate to require people to register because one editor can't resist the temptation to edit. I acknowledge that technically StanTheMan87 could vandalise anonymously sufficiently to require a softblock, but I would hope they are better than that. So I'm not sure that we should start softblocking IPs on demand when the person behind it is only one user and not someone with administrative authority. (I believe we do sometimes block school IPs when someone with administrative authority says they feel it's too difficult for them to control vandalism so it'll be better if it's just blocked.) Nil Einne (talk) 13:21, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • StanTheMan87, I sympathize with your plight, and so does Bishonen who has, especially for souls like yours, wrote up User:Bishzilla/Self-requested pocketings. Good luck with your studies. If you're in one of my classes, signal such by drawing an upside-down monkey on your next homework assignment and I'll give you an extra sticker. Drmies (talk) 14:16, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Almost makes me want to re-matriculate...almost. Tiderolls 14:48, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Editor has been voluntarily blocked for three months but it seems that now the talk page is full of notices about images and copyright problems which cannot be responded to in the normal manner. As a result, this block had added a (little) bit of inconvenience for others. I hope it isn't necessary to reverse this but it's something to consider the next time this kind of request comes up. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

A plot to discredit me?[edit]

Looking to see if an editor had replied to this comment I had added to his talkpage, I just came across this discussion, which appears to me to show User:Archon 2488 and User:Lesser Cartographies conspiring to discredit me. I believe this is Archon 2488's attempt to silence me in response to my challenging him to explain why he is spending most of his time on Wikipedia converting UK-related articles to primarily use metric units of measurement rather than the British units that the original creators of the articles used, and which are in more dominant use in modern Britain and in the contemporary sources. He hasn't had the manners to respond to that message yet. Are there any policies or guidelines that can be invoked to nip this overtly bad-faith behaviour and personal attack in the bud? ProProbly (talk) 19:34, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:HARASS is fairly broad but I would suggest you don't start off with 'attempting to silence' and 'plots to discredit' when it's a dispute over the use of what units to use in articles. I know there's a relevant Manual of style section (and tons of arguments) you can point that editor to and if the revisions are disruptive and against policy, then that conduct is worth mentioning. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:50, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Ricky81682, however they've now concocted a cynical and misleading "SPI" between them, clearly designed, not as a neutral attempt to present evidence, but with cherry-picked and misrepresented content, to persuade readers to accept their false assertions. And Lesser Cartographies has canvassed likely sympathisers with this inflammatory addition to the discussion on the Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers talkpage. All clearly desperate attempts to silence my challenges of their joint enterprise to undermine the principles of MOSNUM. ProProbly (talk) 21:16, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
The proper MOS is at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Units_of_measurement which is subject to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article_titles_and_capitalisation. If there's an issue, AE enforcement can be the proper page in my view. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:55, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Given that the discussion in question took place on a publicly-visible talk page, and followed a similar discussion on my own talk page some months previously (relating to a previous SPI involving this editor, with which Lesser Cartographies was involved), I do not think this is conspiratorial behaviour. Both discussions related to the disruptive tendency of ProProbly to revert edits which were in line with the MOS; these reverts were justified by ProProbly's belief that UK articles should use what he considers "indigenous" units. This concept of "indigenous" is not part of the MOS and has not been seriously entertained by anyone but him; it seems to be just a stick for him to beat the metric system with. It is not relevant which units "the original creators of the articles used" because the appropriate choice of units is detailed at WP:UNITS, as has been explained to ProProbly on several occasions by several editors. His conduct has led to the suspicion that he is yet another sockpuppet of DeFacto, who was banned years ago for such disruptive agitation against the metric system.
It is also incorrect that I have spent "most of [my] time on Wikipedia converting UK-related articles to primarily use metric units". I have edited many articles relating by no means exclusively to the UK to ensure that they complied with the general MOS preference for metric units; in the vast majority of instances this was not controversial. In the case of US-related articles, I ensured that conversions from US customary units to metric units were provided. Where UK articles gave distances in miles, I ensured that appropriate conversions to kilometres were provided. His current dispute with me relates in part to the article on Donald Dewar, because he does not think it appropriate to give the height of the statue primarily in metres. A short discussion on WT:MOSNUM revealed that nobody shared his opinion on this, which he seems unwilling to accept. Archon 2488 (talk) 20:13, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

DeFacto sock. I'll write up the SPI on Saturday if no one beats me to it. Lesser Cartographies (talk) 20:28, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

SPI is here. Lesser Cartographies (talk) 03:24, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Fake data being added by User:Hamzahk53 (another Jagged85 in the making???)[edit]

Fairly stale. He has not edited for a while, but if he starts adding more unreferenced and fake data I will be sure to report him again. --Misconceptions2 (talk) 21:45, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Not only this this user consistently violating WP:MOSISLAM by replacing the word "Muhammad" with "Prophet Muhammad" like here: 1 he has also done other serious violations similar to what Jagged85 did

Collapsing very long list of examples
summary

First I want to say this mentions only about 5 of the 20-50 articles he edited. From his history page it looks like he has edited 20-50 articles and i dont have the time to fix it all

His main violations are as follows:

1. Adding fake references that do not mention what he wrote
2. Adding unreferenced data and in many cases the unreferenced data was added after he deleted referenced data (i.e his replacing referenced data with unreferenced data)
3. Removing references (i counted 2 occasions so far) and replacing with "citation needed" tag

This fellow seems to be trying to add a "Defensive flavour" to muhammads military campaigns by adding UNreferenced information about muhammad being persecuted and attacked first. Despite over whelming muslim sources like this clearly mentioning that thise battles/oeprations were offensive, see here for offensive defensive breakdown of muhammads battles from islamic sources.

Also for the offensive miltiary campaigns muhammad took part in, he seems to be adding the unreferenced idea that muhammad participated in those offensive military camapigns to force the opponent he attacked into a peace treaty. Even when he adds references they are fake, the references dont say what he claims they say.

--Misconceptions2 (talk) 16:05, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Adding completely fake data and claiming it is mentioned in reference

here he added:

This troop was sent 7 to 9 months after the Hijrah (migration to Madīnah). However, there are differences of opinion among the early Islamic scholars on the exact timing of this operation. Some authorities hold that it was the first caravan raid the Prophet ordered being the first military action in the history of Islam. While, the others comment that Sariyyah Baṭn Rābigh was the first operation Muḥammad ordered entrusting ‘Ubaydah ibn al-Ḥārith with its commandership.

− According to Ibn Isḥāq, "Some people say that Ḥamzah's banner was the first awarded by the Messenger of Allah to any of the Muslims. This was because he had dispatched Ḥamzah and ‘Ubaydah at the same time; this confused people."

− − Ibn Kathīr commented that Mūsā ibn ‘Uqbah quoted Ibn Shihāb al-Zuhri as saying that the Prophet had dispatched Ḥamzah before ‘Ubaydah ibn al-Ḥārith. He maintained that Ḥamzah's mission came before the expedition to al-Abwā'. And that when the Messenger of Allah returned from al-Abwā’, he dispatched ‘Ubaydah b. al-Ḥārith along with 60 Emigrants.

− − Al- Wāqidī’s opinion was: "The raid made by Ḥamzah in Ramaḍān took place in 1 AH; ‘Ubaydah's expedition came thereafter, in Shawwāl in the same year."

Ibn Isḥāq quoted from Ḥamzah’s poetry indicating that his banner was the first awarded in Islam. Ibn Isḥāq stated, "If Ḥamzah did speak this, then so it was for he only ever spoke the truth. But Allah knows best what happened. What we have heard from scholars was that ‘Ubaydah was the first.

and claimed the source is "Al-Sīrah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Kathīr, volume 2, p237" , but the source doesnt mention this.

here he added:

The Meccans would not leave Muḥammad at peace even in Madīnah. After their attempt to assassinate Muḥammad became futile, they were infuriated and sought to take vengeance after his successful escape. They were desperate in stopping him with whatever means possible.

− −

To their utmost concern, they also saw that Muḥammad was gaining control over the principal trade route to Syria & Egypt by signing non-aggression treaties and forming alliances with the neighboring tribes (Banū Ḍamrah, Banū Juhaynah) of Madīnah. In a letter to ‘Abdullah ibn Ubayy, the would-be king of Yathrib, Abū Sufyān ibn Ḥarb & Ubayy ibn Khalaf threatened him for giving refuge to the Ṣābi‘ūn (i.e. heretics) and would wage war against Madīnah unless he either killed Muḥammad or surrendered him.

He gave the source as "Ibn Sa‘d, aṭ-Ṭabaqāt 2: 9" but the source doesnt even mention this. This source in fact is a source from the dark ages (7th century) so its absolutely ridiculous that he would claim that it mentions everything he says.

here he added:

Criticism of western view

− The state of Madīnah at its incipient stage had insignificant military strength to organize any offensive attack on the Quraysh, much less at the interval of nearly every 2 months. By making the first move, it would have been irrational & unwarranted for Muhammad to deliberately provoke his fierce opponent that was much superior to him in strength and other capabilities. In fact, the vulnerability & helplessness of the Muslims at the early stage of migration was revealed in the following verse of Qur’an: (8:26)

− Therefore any claim of the commentators who narrated that the objective of the early invasions was to relieve poverty by raiding the Quraysh caravans is unsupported. It is not plausible to send only 30 riders over a caravan of 300 armored men.

this is just his opinion

Removal of referenced data and replaced with unreferenced data and opinions

here he removed REFERENCED data and replaced it with the following unreferenced data and opinions:

With the escalating military threats posed by the Quraysh of Mecca, the Prophet took the initiative of securing the protection of the Muslims by gaining as many allies as possible, especially within the vicinity and the outskirts of Madīnah. Therefore, the purpose of this expedition was solely diplomatic as well as missionary. So any account of raiding Banu Ḍamrah of Waddān is unauthenticated.

creating new articles which are POV fork of existing articles and adding unreferenced apologetic information

here he added:

This operation was organized as a series of expeditions in order to intercept the caravans of the Quraysh, wealthy merchants of Mecca who were involved in the oppression and persecution of the Muslims.

This wasnt referenced and is a POV fork of Caravan Raids#first raid here he added:

This operation was organized as a series of expeditions in order to intercept the caravans of Quraysh owned by the wealthy merchants of Mecca who were involved in the oppression & persecution of the Muslims. The purpose of the raids was to weaken the economic backbone of Mecca so that the Quraysh would lose their offensive capabilities against the Muslims and eventually be forced to make an agreement of peace.

Again no references and is a POV fork

creating new articles which are POV fork of existing articles and adding unreferenced apologetic information

here he stated:

This troop was sent 7 to 9 months after the Hijrah (migration to Madīnah). However, there are differences of opinion among the early Islamic scholars on the exact timing of this operation. Some authorities hold that it was the first caravan raid the Prophet ordered being the first military action in the history of Islam. While, the others comment that Sariyyah Baṭn Rābigh was the first operation Muḥammad ordered entrusting ‘Ubaydah ibn al-Ḥārith with its commandership.

− According to Ibn Isḥāq, "Some people say that Ḥamzah's banner was the first awarded by the Messenger of Allah to any of the Muslims. This was because he had dispatched Ḥamzah and ‘Ubaydah at the same time; this confused people."

− − Ibn Kathīr commented that Mūsā ibn ‘Uqbah quoted Ibn Shihāb al-Zuhri as saying that the Prophet had dispatched Ḥamzah before ‘Ubaydah ibn al-Ḥārith. He maintained that Ḥamzah's mission came before the expedition to al-Abwā'. And that when the Messenger of Allah returned from al-Abwā’, he dispatched ‘Ubaydah b. al-Ḥārith along with 60 Emigrants.

− − Al- Wāqidī’s opinion was: "The raid made by Ḥamzah in Ramaḍān took place in 1 AH; ‘Ubaydah's expedition came thereafter, in Shawwāl in the same year."

Ibn Isḥāq quoted from Ḥamzah’s poetry indicating that his banner was the first awarded in Islam. Ibn Isḥāq stated, "If Ḥamzah did speak this, then so it was for he only ever spoke the truth. But Allah knows best what happened. What we have heard from scholars was that ‘Ubaydah was the first.

He claims the source is "Al-Sīrah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Kathīr, volume 2, p237" (exactly the same as source he gave for other articles he created), but source doesnt even say this.

here he added more fake apologetic information:

The Meccans would not leave Muḥammad at peace even in Madīnah. After their attempt to assassinate Muḥammad became futile, they were infuriated and sought to take vengeance after his successful escape. They were desperate in stopping him with whatever means possible.

He claims the source is "Ibn Sa‘d, aṭ-Ṭabaqāt 2: 9" but the source doesnt mention this. Of course it doesnt because the source is a primary source from the dark ages.

here he stated:

After being informed of this imminent attack, the Prophet immediately dispatched a group of 30 Muhajirūn led by Ḥamza ibn ‘Abdu’l-Muṭṭalib to intercept them

Again he claims the source is "Ibn Sa‘d, aṭ-Ṭabaqāt 2: 9"

Above he mentions an "imminents attack" but the primary sources and reliable soruces in the existing article all mention it was an offensive attack and ambush that muhammad carried out and there was no "imminent attack"

He also added his personal opinions here:

Criticism of western view

The state of Madīnah at its incipient stage had insignificant military strength to organize any offensive attack on the Quraysh, much less at the interval of nearly every 2 months.

Again no reference and he just claims Muhamamd did not carry out "offensive" attacks although the reliable sources say they were.

All of this is a POV fork of Caravan Raids#Third raid.

He removes references for reference data then adds "citation needed" tag

Here he removed the following:

The purpose of the raid was to plunder this rich Quraysh caravan.

and replaced it with:

According to western scholars, the purpose of the raid was to plunder this rich Quraysh caravan

He also removed these refs Mubarakpuri, Saifur Rahman Al (2005), The sealed nectar: biography of the Noble Prophet, Darussalam Publications, p. 244, ISBN 978-9960-899-55-8</ref> and List of Battles of Muhammad .

Firstly these refs are islamic sources and he claims they are western scholars. He also claims that the purpose was not to punder, even though this islamic source mentions in many occasions throuought its book that muhaammad raided the caravans of his enemies for "booty". This is an instance where he is refusing to "call a spade a spade".

more fake data and total exaggerations

here he stated:

The leaders of Quraysh were agitated by the gradual strengthening of the Muslim alliances. In their series of attempts to wipe out the Muslims, they sent a small raiding party under the leadership of Kurz ibn Jābir al-Fihrī who decided to make a guerrilla attack in the outskirts of Madinah. [Kurz later accepted Islam and became a martyr during the Conquest of Mecca in 8 AH.]

He is claiming that a single robber wanted to wipe out the entire muslim population so muhammad ordered this attack.

This edit was made on the article Invasion of Dul Ashir, but the incident of the robber named Kurz ibn Jābir al-Fihrī who wanted to rob muhammads camels happened in the Invasion of Safwan, some months after the Invasion of Dul Ashir.

So he is claiming that an incident that happened in the future was the justification for the incident that happened in the past. WTF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

removal of references and replaced with "citation needed" tag

here he added a citation needed tag at end:

Muḥammad knew when this caravan had departed from Mecca and encamped there for about a month for this caravan to arrive at the ambush point. But the Meccan caravan had already passed some days before when the Muslims arrived.[citation needed]

but its was already referenced with " Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum (The Sealed Nectar) p 245" which he removed.

more fake references and exaggerations

here he stated:

The leaders of Quraysh were agitated by the gradual strengthening of the Muslim alliances. In their series of attempts to wipe out the Muslims, they sent a small raiding party under the leadership of Kurz ibn Jābir al-Fihrī who decided to make a guerrilla attack in the outskirts of Madinah. [Kurz later accepted Islam and became a martyr during the Conquest of Mecca in 8 AH.]

He uses the reference "Ibn Ḥajar, al-Iṣābah" which is a primary source from the dark ages and for which he gave no page number

Please add comments below

Please add comments here--Misconceptions2 (talk) 16:05, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

TLDR Amortias (T)(C) 17:55, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
So you will ignore until a cleanup tag is needed to fix all the mess he created and created in the future like the Jagged 85 cleanup tag ?--Misconceptions2 (talk) 18:00, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
It would help if you removed the text following all the here links. It would make it easier to read and people can follow the links as nessecary. Amortias (T)(C) 18:12, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I will say that although the OP appears to not have a good handle on how ANI works, and how to best formulate a complaint, it does appear that there may be many problematic edits involved here. I am somewhat surprised there isn't an active arb or DS in this topic area that can be applied (I checked, as far as I can see there isn't). Gaijin42 (talk) 18:14, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

  • There is a warning template for "intentionally adding false information", and adding fake data is of course eminently blockable. I'll have a look. Thanks Gaijin. Drmies (talk) 19:54, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Well, this is not a clearcut case of "fake data"--at least not to me. I see problems with possible POV or unverified information, and an utter lack of edit summaries and talk page edits, but these are topics I have no experience with. I see that CambridgeBayWeather has "tidied up" some of their edits, and I wonder if they have anything to offer. Drmies (talk) 20:06, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Not much to add but I would point out that they have only made two edits since 25 February. This in March, which was later removed, and this in June, which still stands. In other words this seems to be fairly stale. Also unlesan edit is really obvious vandalism I wont make administrative edits because I edit a lot in this area. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 20:24, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
The fact that he is being disruptive is clear here . He removed references for data like "Muḥammad knew when this caravan had departed from Mecca and encamped there for about a month for this caravan to arrive at the ambush point. But the Meccan caravan had already passed some days before when the Muslims arrived" and "They expected to ambush that caravan there" and then added a "citation needed tag". Removing references and adding citation needed tag is clear disruptive editing--Misconceptions2 (talk) 20:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ryulong[edit]

Appropriately addressed by Masem (see comments in the thread), and noting the environmental challenges described by Johnuniq. The content dispute at the heart of this issue is at DRN and on the article talkpage, where it should be. In this instance, the evidence and context don't lend themselves to any immediate use of admin tools. On the remainder, someone's twitter posts are unlikely to lead to any on-wiki admin action, and the doxxing allegation is not supported by the evidence presented here. Euryalus (talk) 21:56, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This user has been harassing me in and off site over the Gamergate controversy article.
After discussion with users Masem, The Devil's Advocate, Diego and others, we were agreeing Intel pulling off ads of Gamasutra had to be mentioned [1]

For some reason only half of it was in the article at the time. That there was a thing called Operation Disrespectful Nod, a boycott of sorts to advertisers

I decided to include a phrasing by Masem with proper sourcing of the Intel matter, only to get reverted in no less than 10 seconds by Ryuolong [2] He stated "check the talk page to see why it isn't included", I did, there was nothing, I asked him on his talk page. He reverted my comments. [3]

To top it off, he HIMSELF decided to add the Intel mention some minutes later, this he disagreed with no less than 5 minutes before [4] He kept including a quote by a The Verge author when no agreement nor even a MENTION of it was discussed on the talk page, so I deleted this, only to be reverted seconds later [5] At this point I realized I was being part of an edit war so I quit. But this is the least of it

User Ryuolong has been constanly uncivil to new editors and people he calls "Gaters", he told me on social media to "learn to fucking read" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/516651395512950785
Since then I've seen his twitter account (since he mentioned me, I had no interest in looking up his name as he did with me), where he has called GamerGate supporters

"gamergate douche" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/515077120431628288
"gamergate fags" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/515077648251224066,
"toxic people" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/516529858176761856
"shitnuggets" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/517046919063814144
"priviliged white guys" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/516814925444825088
"fucking middle class straight white men" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/516811560560234496
He calls the Vivian James (the GamerGate "mascot" of sorts) drawing "nice shit avatar" https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/516528138159792128
And countless other examples

On wikipedia he called me "wannabe Upton Sinclairs" [6]

He says "And your mouth is still writing a check your ass can't cash when it comes to the stuff you're spewing" here [7] to another user

In a quasi doxxing remark to user Torga, he says "when the shit hit the fan and there was a thread on reddit calling out for people with existing accounts on Wikipedia to get the GamerGate page skewed in their favor, you answered the clarion call". This user never linked to his reddit account After discussing with Torga over if it was doxxing or not, Ryulong tells him to "put up or shut up" in yet another example of his uncivil and rude behaviour [8]

When he's not insulting people he finds ways to swear for no reason, like here he tells me "don't pull this shit" [9] Or here [10] "Would you gaters stop kvetching about Leigh Alexander and how you think she's biased? Jesus fucking Christ" in an unproductive form of arguing

Also, as you can see above after I posted a screencap criticizing Wikipedia as a site, he looked up my twitter and reddit. He posted on ANI for this in an attempt to get me topic banned, yet knowing this was ONLY offsite behaviour, he tried to state I'm a SPA He then posted on the GamerGate talk page "so basically it's time we showed LoganMac the door" [11]

It's worth noting, this is a person who already got desysopped for "inappropriate off-wiki behavior" [12] and whose uncivil behaviour has been remarked by several other users

And as I've come to find out this user has a long history of abusive behaviour which begs the question how is he even allowed to keep his account [13]

He's been warned by several other users like Titanium Dragon [14] on his uncivil remarks, just one example user PseudoSomethinghere [15] states his rudeness.

"Should Ryulong be found to be seeking any user's real life identity, he may be banned from Wikipedia." [16] Loganmac (talk) 08:34, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Loganmac is one of several dormant accounts who have come to Wikipedia for the express purpose of pushing a point of view on Gamergate controversy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), an article that is an area of contention in the video game playing community. I have been terse with him and other editors of this type due to the constant disruption that the article has come under. In addition, my behavior on a completely separate website that has nothing to do with Wikipedia (rather than several IRC channels that are loosely affiliated with Wikipedia) has no bearing on what is happening here, because I was being harassed for several days by the pro-Gamergate crowd because of what I was doing here, and I unfortunately decided to respond to them. Also, I do not see how that "real life identity" thing is of any relevance here. And I did not look up your Twitter and reddit accounts. Someone on the talk page posted links to them after he found out you were purposefully misconstruing what he said him offsite, which is the whole subject of the thread higher up on the notice board. And I did not "dox" anyone. I used the global contributions tool built into the Mediawiki software to see what other accounts Torga possessed on other projects. I have no idea if he possesses an account on Reddit. I was making a blanket statement concerning the several disruptive single purpose accounts that sprang up. This is a frivolous request and a blatant attempt to have me silenced on a topic that Loganmac wants me eliminated from and it should be shut down.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:56, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Ryulong, you need to be careful here; this thread is about you, not Loganmac. Casting aspersions on other editors will look bad on you rather than help you. You need to answer for your actions here, and you've been less than distant and calm. Please read again WP:COOL and start following it to the letter for a while, it will help everybody involved. Diego (talk) 11:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Are you new here? The behavior of editors who file complaints at ANI can and will be scrutinized just as much as the person they're complaining about. Maybe a boomerang has come back and hit the person with unclean hands. Tarc (talk) 12:47, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
What I meant is that there's an open thread above for Loganmac above, and there's where Ryulong should place his comments on the other editor's behavior. At ANI, attacks are not a good defense, and neither is "...but, but, I've been provoked" a reason for misbehaving. Diego (talk) 13:32, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
P.S. And it certainly doesn't help that Ryulong is the one who filed the thread against Loganmac to begin with. If there are merits for a boomerang, it should be other editors who push for it, not the one being subject to the ANI. This goes for Loganmac too, of course. Diego (talk) 13:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Coping with the WP:SPA activists at the Gamergate articles is beyond human endurance—Ryulong and a handful of others are trying to maintain WP:BLP and WP:DUE and WP:RS but they have to repeat every argument ten times, and then repeat them another ten times when a new enthusiast arrives. Breaches of WP:CIVIL are regrettable, but they would not occur if the community were to topic ban several of the SPAs. Johnuniq (talk) 10:10, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Ryulong is one of several users who has come to the Gamergate controversy article for the express purpose of pushing a point of view on an article that is an area of contention in the video game playing community. He has referred to users who has disagreed with him as /v/irgins on more than one occaision, and has shown some major issues with ownership of the article. Even while the article is undergoing dispute resolution, Ryulong has steadfastly refused to allow any implication that the article might have neutrality problems, reverting attempts to tag the article despite ongoing dispute resolution over this issue - dispute resolution he has characterized as a farce and refused to participate in, claiming, despite my and others repeatedly pointing out that sites including Forbes, The Telegraph, Tech Crunch, and even Taiwanese paper Digitimes noting that the point of view he advocates for is not the only one on the issue. Given that there have been issues with harassment of people reporting on this, frequently by people using similarly derogatory language, up to and including harassment of Wikipedia editors on this issue (the Wikipediocracy doxxing incident), it is a bit of an issue. He claims that it is a "minority viewpoint", despite the fact that an enormous number of editors have come by noting the issues with WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. He has some ownership issues over the article, and reacts aggressively and derisively to people who question the neutrality of the article.
He needs to participate in the DRN, which is the appropriate avenue for this discussion. Titanium Dragon (talk) 10:23, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Titanium Dragon was previously banned from the article due to the fact he could not keep within the bounds of WP:BLP. This is just him piling on due to a current content dispute with him on the page because of his insistence that the article lacks a neutral point of view or that it is giving undue weight to one side of the debate and not the other when this is not something that Wikipedia can correct due to our own policies and guidelines. I am not participating in the WP:DRN thread because it is simply an attempt at forum shopping by editors who are attempting to POV push. I am not exhibiting WP:OWN on the article. And this is just Titanium Dragon extending the content dispute into another venue. The fact that he rewrote what I initially wrote concerning Loganmac is really childish. His claim of me using "/v/irgin" is ridiculous; it's what the users of 4chan's /v/ board call themselves on their own, just like you have "/b/tards" or "/pol/acks" or "/fit/izens" for other boards. And for fucks sake, you are just repeating the same shit that was said to me constantly over the past week on Twitter when I was harassed time and time again by new gamergaters on this issue: I am not advocating any fucking point of view. Simply because I have noticed that the misogynist harassment is an aspect, as is described by multiple god damn sources on the article itself, means I am an SJW or whiteknight and do not think that the ethics concerns have any merit. That is what you are insinuating and that is a fucking bold faced lie. That is what everyone who went out of their way to find my god damn barely used Twitter account said to me. I should not have to deal with this garbage anywhere. Not on Twitter. Not on Wikipedia. If anything comes out of this discussion, it better be topic bans or site bans for the bulk of the single purpose accounts (either newly created or dormant accounts who have turned into single purpose accounts) who are insisting that Wikipedia is wrong despite the fact that so many other editors have pointed out that their insistence is incorrect but it has to be said every day because someone else comes along and makes a new thread on a topic which was discussed hours before.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:38, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Neither me nor Titanium Dragon have ever stated GamerGate has nothing to do with misogynism, my few edits on the article prove that on Wikipedia I'm neutral about it, yet Ryulong has stated several times against the journalism ethics aspect and generally diminishing its nature as just a harassment campaign orchestrated by evil sites like 4chan and reddit. Still what I'm really arguing about here is not his bias, he could be the most fervient anti-GamerGate editor, I don't care, if only he behaved in a civil manner and learned to disagree in a proper way Loganmac (talk) 11:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
I most certainly have not done anything of that sort. I acknowledge both sides of the debate, but one side can't be written about as easily as the other due to Wikipedia's policies.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
  • If, as Loganmac has already said, "It's twitter, he can tell me whatever he wants, I really don't care" and "Remember that we're not accountable to what we do outside Wikipedia", why bring all that up? Woodroar (talk) 10:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
To show that he made the effort to find me on twitter and insult me, and to show his general uncivility to GamerGate supporters, both on and off site Loganmac (talk) 11:04, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
That is a load of shit and you know it. Bosstopher posted your Tweet and your Reddit comment here. I shouldn't have said anything to you on Twitter but I did, and you already dismissed it as Woodroar points out. And I was contacted offsite by multiple Gamergate supporters and harassed for days. You can see I spent hours on Twitter when I rarely ever use it because people kept messaging me about this shit and how I'm the big bad Wikipedia editor. At least the toku fandom on /m/ is more consistent and tolerable for why they hate me.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Don't you see a pattern here man, it's not an organized campaign to harass you, look it up, Twitter has archives, KotakuInAction has archives, IRC has logs, noone decided to "harass you", they're simply looking at your actions and having an opinion. And as you say, this is not the only "fandom" you've struck a nerve of. Also as a rule of thumb, you don't have to reply to anyone on twitter, SJWs insult me there too, I just laugh it off Loganmac (talk) 11:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
I shouldn't be fucking contacted on my personal Twitter account for my behavior on Wikipedia. And one group of nerds' opinion on translating Japanese into English is a different situation.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:45, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
There's a lot of off-site chatter about this topic area, do we really care? They talk about me too in a lot of places. Don't sweat the petty things. Tarc (talk) 12:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Looks like a force 10 in pottery. When did skins get so thin... Blackmane (talk) 13:22, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Experience in the past shows me that Ryulong does tend to get worked up on topics they have a strong interest in and become short on words and edging on edit warring - what is a common urge for most when dealing with the incoming SPA/IP accounts due to off-site canvassing to "fix" the apparent bais on the article. But that said, I have cautioned them that they are being perhaps too terse and rude, presuming accounts are SPA or the like without evidence, jumping at reverting edits that other editors have discussed on the talk page, and the like. There's no immediate ANI that I can see, but there definitely needs to be caution given that continuing that type of behavior can become disruptive if not checked. --MASEM (t) 14:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The Devil's Advocate took part in canvassing on the Escapist forums here [17], be wary of (other) new editors --5.81.52.21 (talk) 14:43, 3 October 2014 (UTC)


Loganmac are you serious ? Wikipedia can't do anything about something that happened off-wiki. We may as well close this up, since anything off-wiki is out of bounds in wiki. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 16:03, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Editor says stuff on twitter: film at 11. Protonk (talk) 18:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

There is considerable off-site chatter going on about making the Gamergate article more 'neutral,' and a lot of it centers around trash-talking contributors who are trying to keep the article free of outright policy violations and prevent it from being whitewashed by the scores of SPAs and POV pushers who are descending on it in response to that offsite canvasing. Ryulong is getting extra-special attention from the mob on twitter, for some reason, and I can't blame him for losing his patience. -- TaraInDC (talk) 20:05, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

In all fairness, there is an ongoing campaign of harassment against people who report on the subject matter, ranging from DDOSs, doxxing, to syringes being mailed to journalists reporting on GamerGate from the perspective of it being legitimate, so it is hardly surprising that people are concerned when people who come on Wikipedia and start calling users who are editing the article virgins and misogynists - the same sort of abusive language used in an attempt to silence people elsewhere. The fact that Ryulong has had action taken against him in the past as relates to threatening to (and actually) blocking users, back when he was a sysop (before he lost it as a result of his behavior), probably plays a role in the additional scrutiny directed towards him when he advocates for banning users he disagrees with. Titanium Dragon (talk) 21:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
For fucks sake, Titanium Dragon. I have not called one person a misogynist or a virgin in regards to anything that's happened. I've used "/v/irgin" (with the forward slashes) as that is what users of 4chan's /v/ call themselves. Anyone who goes to 4chan knows this and a good portion of the Gamergate social movement comes from 4chan. And the events of my arbitration case have no standing on whether or not I can tell if someone is being disruptive on an article. Stop using this against me because you should still be banned from the page and not unbanned on a stupid cop out technicality. The only people who have been accusing me of doing any sort of wrong in this situation and that I should be punished for it are you pro-Gamergate editors because I've been made out to be a scapegoat, as was evidenced from the constant harassment I'm dealing with through my Twitter account (someone messaged me within the past few hours with some garbage pro-GG link). I'm not going to stand for this garbage from you either.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can someone help with disruptive editors at Talk:Neil deGrasse Tyson?[edit]

Two editors removed from the fray, one permanently, and an AfD closed. Good call, TP. --John (talk) 23:28, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Although there have been several editors who want to use the Talk:Neil deGrasse Tyson page as a soapbox, one in particular Moynihanian has been disruptive and wholly unproductive. See for instance, diff, or diff. Several editors there have tried to collapse his rants, see diff, for instance, or diff, only to be undone, see diff. I warned him on his talk page to stay on topic diff, which he simply deleted diff and add this to the Neil deGrasse Tyson talk page. These arent the only examples. If an uninvolved admin could take a look, that would be appreciated. Please note that the Tyson talk page is listed as being under discretionary sanctions. Thanks in advance. Bonewah (talk) 17:26, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Without knowing anything about this editor. Wikichecker shows exactly 2 of his 191 edits so far have been to article space. WP:NOTHERE comes to mind. Kingsindian  17:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
There's no point in editing Wikipedia's articles. You run a site that doesn't believe in facts; that is full of propaganda and advertising; that is dominated by roving bands of Wikilawyering, Wikicensoring flashmobs; that is actively hostile to expertise of any kind; and which is banned by academic institutions worldwide for its unreliability, lack of neutrality, inconsistency, and continual bias. I am familiar with plenty of Wikipedia articles with plainly incorrect information, and that violate your own rules, and that have gaping holes. But Wikipedia doesn't want help; it wants to repel help. The ONLY proper way to deal with Wikipedia is to make sure that the "editors" and "administrators" know that, each time they're caught in the act, people are going to notice. But even that would seem to be too much for the lot of you. Moynihanian (talk) 19:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
  • NOTHERE is correctly invoked by Kingsindian. I read over various talk page discussions in The Human Stain, an article not devoid of wiki controversy, and the same sort of ranting occurs in Talk:The_Human_Stain/Archive_2. I hatted a thread/rant they started on the deGrasse Tyson talk page, and there's more material there that could/should be hatted. Though I note that this editor is not the only one with a soapbox, they're certainly the most...vocal one. Drmies (talk) 17:46, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
The user in this case has harassed me on my Talk page twice, in violation of Wikirules. Of course, because he's part of a Wikiclique, you won't enforce your own rules. It's no wonder that Wikipedia has a terrible reputation, and suffers from drastically declining participation among serious people, all while being flooded with advertising and propaganda. Have it your way, children. You know you will, anyway. Kick me out of your sandbox. Moynihanian (talk) 18:59, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
This is not harassment. No one is oppressing you. You are free to play elsewhere, in another sandbox. Drmies (talk) 19:41, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
I think my real sin is not attending Wikihigh's online pep rallies and student council meetings. Dang, no school spirit! In fact, he's even rooting for the other team! Moynihanian (talk) 19:55, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
  • In related news, I removed a "remark" by Moynihanian from the deGrasse Tyson talk page, which was reverted by Andvphil, again removed, now by Black Kite, and reinstated again: you guessed it, "censorship". In addition, Black Kite is a vandal, and I am, I think, a "moral moron"--see User_talk:Andyvphil#Overweening_Admins. What is this world coming to? Tsk tsk. Drmies (talk) 20:35, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
    • Ha ha! I'd say that when you delete an entire section as "off topic," while making your own comment in the deletion notice, therefore blocking out all comments but your own, that's about as clear as an example of Wikicensorship as it gets. Tell us, what made your comment so vital, while deeming all others "off topic?" I guess when you're part of a Wikiflashmob, you're entitled to inflated self-regard? Moynihanian (talk) 20:49, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I've blocked Moynihanian as WP:NOTHERE, Andvphil for 24 hours for disruptive edits/personal attacks that are ongoing, and I've closed TheFederalist.com AfD as keep. Can the drama level please go down now?--v/r - TP 21:07, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

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ANI "fuck" count for today;[edit]

Who gives a fuck?
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Apologies to Drmies. I highly doubt that this fucking high visibility page does not need such a fucking pointless thread. Blackmane (talk) 01:01, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
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Too much talk, too little action. Carry on. Drmies (talk) 19:50, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
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41. Sooo civilized. - theWOLFchild 19:11, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Fucking sweet. GiantSnowman 19:13, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
42... I feel like that number has some kind of meaning. – Juliancolton | Talk 19:14, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
43, you forgot the one in the section heading. Amortias (T)(C) 19:19, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
No, only 26 fucks today. 27. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 19:29, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Depends on your reading of the word today, did he mean how many fucks on the page today or how many fucks were added today. Amortias (T)(C) 19:34, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Also 46/29 Amortias (T)(C) 19:34, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
I think there is a bit too much fucking around here over the word fuck. It's like we have no fucking encyclopedia to build. I mean don't you think...fuck it, whatever. Let's spend our day counting fucks.--v/r - TP 19:44, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

───────────────────────── I'm tempted to write a Greasemonkey or Javascript plugin for this purpose to put a counter up in the corner. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:46, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I don't give a fuck. --John (talk) 19:48, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
... "yawn" ... Martinevans123 (talk) 19:49, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
How many fucks could a woodchuck fuck if a woodchuck could fuck wood.... --Mark Miller (talk) 21:55, 3 October 2014‎ (UTC)
Someone really fucked up with these 58 fucks. Does anyone else know about the 17 shits I don't give about? – Epicgenius (talk) 00:52, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Brooklyn Eagle[edit]

Discussion started on Brooklyn Eagle's talk page. A warning was delivered by the esteemed Drmies making it clear that their choice of wording left much to be desired. No blocks are likely this time. Blackmane (talk) 01:10, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Brooklyn Eagle (talk · contribs · count) started a discussion at Talk:Thomas More a year ago after a series of reverts. I told them "It is not the job of editors to philosophize about St. Thomas More" in December. They took offense to that comment.

Since then, Brooklyn Eagle made several exceptionally long-winded arguments on Talk:Thomas More about some perceived bias in the article with a few other editors including Johnbod and Tlhslobus, to no effect. Since it was apparent to me Brooklyn Eagle was not here to build an encyclopedia I chose to ignore the situation. Brooklyn Eagle went to my talk page to incite my response. I made a good-faith effort to bury the hatchet saying "In conclusion, if you felt I claimed you were writing original research, consider that rescinded." I replied on Talk: Thomas More and explained I didn't want to be part of the discussion anymore. The issue more or less dropped in January 2014.

Last month, Brooklyn Eagle showed up at my talk page again raving about my issue with their original research efforts in the previous year. I made it abundantly clear I wanted them off my talk page as I'm not arguing it any longer. They persisted. At this point, I can only assume I'm being trolled. I had intended to take this issue to WP:RFCC but the process seems to require the other editors to get re-involved when this process works just as well. Chris Troutman (talk) 01:09, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of anything else, posting "you make people's blood boil" and "grow a pair" to Chris Troutman's Talk page can in no way be viewed as acceptable behavior. Still, considering BrooklynEagle only averages 2 edits per month, I don't really see how the maximum sanction realistically possible for a first transgression of this type (what, maybe a 24 or 48 hour block?), would accomplish much. I have posted a message to the user's Talk page asking he better police his behavior in the hope that voluntary intervention might yield positive results and alleviate the issues with which CT has to deal. DocumentError (talk) 01:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
As DocumentError has suggested, their infrequency of editing makes sanctions difficult to apply. I suggest just taking the high ground and reverting and ignoring them unless something more serious appears. At this point, it's just venting. Blackmane (talk) 05:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
But it seems, at least to my admittedly biased self, that the symbolic and possible educative value of officially telling him he has been wrong is potentially immensely important and useful for both him and the rest of us. The point is that quite likely he doesn't even realize that his behavior has been inappropriate (as I assume it has, and in more ways than just those explicitly mentioned here, though that could of course be unfair bias on my part). Tlhslobus (talk) 06:21, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
I think you bring up a valid and reasonable point that merits further discussion, Tlhslobus! DocumentError (talk) 06:28, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, DocumentError. There's also the point that if he persists in offending after that, it becomes a second offense (presumably making him eligible for heavier penalties), instead of remaining forever a first offense that is only punishable by first offense penalties. Tlhslobus (talk) 06:51, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Excellent point, Tlhslobus. On second consideration and based on the reasons you've outlined, I think I agree with your approach. DocumentError (talk) 06:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, DocumentError.Tlhslobus (talk) 07:04, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for your kind validation of my suggestion, Blackmane! DocumentError (talk) 06:41, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
It's simple pragmatism, one can't do anything about someone who only stops off every now and then. However, a sufficient history of it and even a sporadic editor like Brooklyn Eagle can be dealt with through longer than normal blocks. Blackmane (talk) 13:10, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
  • A block right now would be the least useful solution for an infrequent editor, a long block needs justification on its own merits--saying "we'll block six months since they rarely show up" is not yet valid, in my opinion. If the problem is personal attacks on Chris Troutman's talk page, that's fixable: I just left them a note telling them to stay away and a future offense can be met with a block--this thread should be warrant enough for a long block. In fact, an indefinite (not infinite!) block is a possible option since, in that case, they refuse to abide by clearly established behavioral guidelines, and we can easily say "you don't come back until you address this behavior".

    Problems on the article talk page can be handled with some diplomacy as well. Off-topic content can be hatted or removed, personal attacks can be deleted: we don't need ANI to enforce that since it's covered under the regular talk page guidelines, though if such action is necessary one can always link back to this discussion. Drmies (talk) 17:15, 3 October 2014 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Personal attacks from HiLo48[edit]

Content dispute disguised as a civility complaint. For genuine repeated user problems, launch an RfC/U. For a general discussion on vested contributors, maybe one of the VP pages? WT:CIVIL? Or somewhere else. For now, I think we are done here. --John (talk) 23:41, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

HiLo48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), whose behaviour keeps coming up here...

...and whose block log speaks volumes, is at it again. After starting the thread Talk:Queensland rugby league team#POV editing by User:Gibson Flying V (which, by the way, results in the words POV editing by User:Gibson Flying V flashing up on an untold number of lists every time someone comments on it - some form of low-effort, high-yield personal attack?) where he failed to impress anyone, he started another thread at the neutral point of view noticeboard where he similarly failed to get support. Once that was archived he decided put his toes right up to the edge of the WP:3RR line at Queensland rugby league team (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and when I called him on it his response was to start the thread Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian sports#POV pushing at Queensland rugby league team by calling me an "AFL hating editor". When I called him on the blatant WP:FORUMSHOPPING and raised the topic of his incivility he responded with more ad hominem remarks to which I responded by providing a link to Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Incredibly, HiLo48 then started two more similar threads both entitled "Anti-AFL POV pushing at Queensland rugby league team" at Talk:Australian Football League[18] and at its Wikiproject's talk page[19] where his remarks about me were repeated. An uninvolved editor, Macosal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), echoed my warning about forum-shopping and posted a notice about inappropriate WP:CANVASSING on HiLo48's talk page. HiLo48's response in the face of this other user's continued civility was to abuse/attack them a few times before deleting their notice (and his abuse/attacks). HiLo48 then made this edit, which is as perfect an example of Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point as you'll ever find, basically admitting as much once I reverted it when he started another thread: Talk:Queensland rugby league team#POV wording again. Until this point I'd resolved to ignore HiLo48's personal attacks (whilst continuing the discussion) but here gave a clear warning that no more would be tolerated (with diffs and explanations of what is unacceptable), explaining that his next personal attack would result in this report. His response was 100% ad hominem and contained accusations of avoiding discussion, holding "obviously non-neutral" views and POV-pushing. So here we are. --Gibson Flying V (talk) 10:35, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

The summary of this recent diff nicely summarizes Hilo's attitude.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:49, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
I can't even be bothered reading all of that from Gibson Flying V. To make it easier for others to understand, this is a content dispute. It's all about an editor who wants to say that when two of his favourite players in his favourite sport, Rugby League, choose to play Rugby Union, that's fine, but when they choose to play Australian rules football, they are "poached". "Poached" is obviously a non-neutral word. In Australia, rugby league is pretty much in direct competition with Australian rules football for fans, so some antipathy can sometimes exist. I suggested alternatives and compromises, such as using "recruited" rather than "poached", but he won't agree. That is POV pushing, and stubbornness. I AM a person who won't give up fighting POV pushers. It's one of the biggest blights on Wikipedia. That's really all there is to this story. Now, I regard AN/I as a disaster area for justice. Editors who dislike an accused can say what they like about the accused, virtually never with any consequences, and little chance for the accused to defend himself against such nonsense. The raising of a long past block log is simply part of that, and irrelevant to the merits of this case. I won't take any further part in this discussion unless it becomes absolutely necessary. HiLo48 (talk) 11:02, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, breaking my promise already. In posting the above I had an edit conflict with ymblanter. What a surprise that he turned up! He is a perfect example of the problems with ANI that I mentioned above. He is a Putin hating POV pusher who brought me here some time ago because I was getting in the way of his POV pushing. He lost. I embarrassed him, and he has been after me ever since. (Do we actually ever do anything about badly behaved Admins?) His is not a good faith post. HiLo48 (talk) 11:09, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Um. Wow.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 11:11, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
If you're trying to prove long-term behaviour, try WP:RFC/U the panda ₯’ 11:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Nope, it's pretty much about the past week alone. There's just a lot! Sorry if it seems verbose, I've never done this before.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 11:37, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
You're providing links to archives from ages ago to try and prove currency? RFC/U. Your WP:BATTLE mentality is returning if you think otherwise the panda ₯’ 11:45, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Not to provide currency at all. But to provide context. I suspected repeat offending might mean something in cases of personal attacks.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 11:49, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Wrong. You're throwing a bunch of shit against a wall, hoping something will stick. I reviewed 3 of the links you claimed contained personal attacks and ad hominem, but found nothing of the sort. False claims of personal attacks can lead to flying sticks the panda ₯’ 11:53, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
There is no rule that is objective and not open to interpretation on what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion...Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done. Which three?.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 11:59, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • This is from 2011, apparently no action; this is from 2012, plaintiff warned and then blocked; this is from 2012, HiLo gets an ITN block; this is from 2013, "nothing actionable"; this is from 2013, with HiLo unblocked and the plaintiff topic-banned. So at best there's one with serious consequences for HiLo, but they are hardly from this past week. Drmies (talk) 14:03, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Well, Hilo48 just does not know how to behave. He is one of the users who make Wikipedia a horrible place to work, and he is doing this consistently for many years. In particular, this year he is stalking me, with the initial claim that my English is so bad he can not comprehend me, than that I am a hater of Russia, and now that I am a hater of Putin, and next time he will invent smth else which is going to have as little ground as these claims. I am convinced he is a net negative for Wikipedia, and since he shows no sign of understanding his problem - which is that he consistently assumes bad faith of the others and refuses to see any problems with his own behaviour - I believe the only long-term solution is to have him indefinitely blocked. How many people can he demotivate by his "fuck offs" and "I decide here" before he finally gets indeffed, remains to be seen.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:16, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Oh, and now he accuses me in POV pushing. He is probably sick. What he is saying about me is blatant lie.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:34, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
In case anyone missed it... the middle sentence by Ymblanter is indeed a personal attack. Check the cleanliness of thine own hands before launching mud the panda ₯’ 13:23, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Hmmm...I'm not that convinced that it is a personal attack, though it may well be an exaggeration. Sorry to disagree with you. Drmies (talk) 14:05, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
A very nice tactics: To completel ignore what is in the thread, but to stat with a boldface against someone who has not been taken to ANI. If Hilo still believes I am a POV-pushe, he should not continue throwing mud but start action against me for POV-pushing. Nobody managed so far to prove I am a POV pusher. If he believes my behavior is not acceptable, he should start a ANI thread. I do not see why he is allowed to lie all aound, and I have to shut up and listen to his lie. I tried once, which led him to believe that I accept all bullshit he has against me. And please DangerousPanda, when he called me a "fool" and I have taken it to ANI into a thread you were in, why did not you react then?--Ymblanter (talk) 13:44, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Where did I suggest that I had ignored anything in this thread? I advised that I reviewed 3 of the links provided as evidence, and found all 3 of them did not show any such NPA's. Now, returning to your own dirty hands, is there a valid reason why you're referring to me using an old, intentionally retired username? I usually find myself on your side, Ymblanter, but this bullshit tactic of your own is entirely unacceptable the panda ₯’ 15:33, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
I apologize, I was under impression that in the thread #6 cited above you used that username. Now I checked, and you used another one. I amended my comment above.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:50, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

───────────────────────── I have had my own run-ins with Gibson Flying V in the past and am fully aware of his BATTLEGROUND mentality, which is certainly not helping the situation; however I concur with DangerousPanda above that this should be raised at RFCU if there is such a long-term pattern of behaviour. GiantSnowman 12:39, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Good, if anyone opens an RFC/U against Hilo48 I will certify it.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:43, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
I have to say that I would too. Last week I did nothing outside of Wikipedia's suggested behaviours in regards to a textbook case of canvassing by HiLo, only to be told three times in quick succession to "Fuck off" (with varying levels of capital letters and exclamation marks) and have my motives reduced to some kind of personal grudge rather than responded to reasonably at face value. (here). I do not regard this as acceptable behaviour on Wikipedia (especially given that this was in response to a clear cut case of canvassing which HiLo seemed reluctant to accept) and this attitude genuinely did effect me as condescending, dismissive and frustrating as well as a personal attack. Over a longer term I have witnessed numerous discussions in which I personally felt that HiLo unnecessarily introduced conflict or escalated what were previously relatively civil discussions (the latter half of this discussion comes to mind).
He also seemed not overly concerned regarding any breach of Wikipedia guidelines, saying re my suggestion of canvassing "He didn't give a rats what I thought" (not in itself very civil) and rejecting numerous requests and reminders to remain civil and avoid personal attacks. Macosal (talk) 13:59, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • HiLo is not a net negative. I wish he had better manners, of course--there's a hell of a lot of fuck offs there but, as we have established often enough, "fuck off" on one's own talk page (including edit summaries) is allowed. It's not great, it's not indicative of collaborative spirit, but it's allowed, though a plethora of it does not reflect very well on the editor. And I say this having known HiLo for quite some time, and in at least one of the linked threads above to ANI archives I have criticized him for his comments. But overall I deny that he is a net negative. Yes, RfC must be the way to go if much of the reporting on this recent incident, or string of incidents, goes back to 2011--that can establish a pattern, but not the severity of an incident. Drmies (talk) 14:10, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
This seems like a content dispute disguised as a personal attacks claim. And if the OP really did say "poached", he ought not be editing the article. Eggs and wild game are "poached". Athletes are recruited, and if the offer looks superior to what they currently have, they might switch teams. The fans might be unhappy about it, but a professional will do what he thinks is in his own best interests. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:49, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
I can see what you mean, but at the same time, it seems to me that there genuinely are strong cases for HiLo having breached WP:CANVASS, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:POINT on multiple occasions all in a short space of time (see above examples), and showing little to no willingness to acknowledge or discuss this when brought to his attention (and even continuing in some of the behaviours). I understand that he felt frustrated by this discussion but that doesn't seem to justify the range and quantity of breaches. Macosal (talk) 15:01, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Accumulated frustration from such never-ending battles is why I don't edit articles much anymore. Maybe HiLo should consider vacationing from article editing also. That could mean the fanboys will win, at least this time. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:09, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Article-editing is what gives the project's usual gang of bad behavior actors cover for their actions, though. Quite a Catch-22 we're setting up here; either be a content creator and deal with massive egos & thick skin vs. being accused of "not here to build an encyclopedia", which is what they toss at the likes of you and me. Tarc (talk) 15:24, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
This is a false dichotomy, which unfortunately becomes more and more popular. I am a content creator as well, and I have more overall edits than Hilo has, and three times as many edits in the article space as he has made in the article space.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
If you're not here to create content, what's the point? Are these non-content creators self-appointed Wikipedia police? Are they judging those of us who create content? HiLo's got a record of ongoing whinging but doing nothing. I could bring up a dozen diffs in the last month, but nothing that quite compares to all the "fuck you"s I've seen on other pages he's edited. I was "surprised" that he tried to obfuscate his bad behaviour by calling it "a content dispute", clearly the original complaint relates to a serious of personal attacks. Having said that, and in agreement with HiLo himself, this venue is highly selective over what constitutes a personal attack. Given that many editors are given a free pass to tell others to "fuck off", the precedent has been set and this is a non-discussion. Non-creation pseudo-Wiki-police rule! The Rambling Man (talk) 15:43, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
I have difficulties understanding how you conclude that I am not here to create content from the fact that I have 40K edits in the article space.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:59, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Maybe the indentation works better now. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:01, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) Again, with every one of these threads, the issue should not be "should or shouldn't a person behave this way" (the discussion never goes that way anyways), but rather "Do you honestly expect any outcome from this discussion." @Ymblanter: if you do have three times the article edits of HiLo48, you must surely have been at Wikipedia long enough to recognize the futility of these discussions. Without regard for what should happen, we need to start recognizing what will happen, and just stop having these discussions altogether. If article editing is your desire, go do that; stop dropping by ANI stirring up drama against people. Whether or not HiLo deserves to be "sanctioned" for his "behavior", you should recognize he (and really many other people: it's not unique to this one) is not going to be, and stop yourselves from starting these threads in the first place. You already should know how this is going to turn out, stop trying to believe it would turn out differently, shut down the thread, and go on with your lives. --Jayron32 15:45, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
    I did not start this thread. I only started one thread against Hilo in my life, in January 2014, and I got so much shit thrown on me in that thread (which is linked above) and later that I had to unwatch the article I was editing and I was really feeling badly for weeks. This is not really an experience I would wish anybody.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:55, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • HiLo's behavior on the Chelsea Clinton talk page and a related discussion at BLPN is less than ideal as well. His refusal to listen there is considered a form of disruptive editing per WP:LISTEN. I apologize for not linking to individual comments but you really need to review the whole discussion to get the gist of it. -- Calidum 15:47, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
    • Someone there labeled him a "troll", which is usually considered a personal attack. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:55, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
      • That's true but it doesn't mean we should ignore several days of disruptivs editing by Hilo that took place before the comment was made. -- Calidum 16:01, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
        • [I screwed up an edit-conflict, second try] I was the second editor who called him such. (The first hid it under a pipe to WP:DFTT.) When HiLo48 says he's there for the "fun", and has completely given up any pretense of trying to work for consensus, and responds to serious arguments with a brief phrase and runs on to something else, then insults everyone for not noticing his "refutations", he's being uselessly, time-wastingly, disruptive. Choor monster (talk) 16:18, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, as Baseball_Bugs pointed out, it's hard to weigh-in on one side or the other of a WP:CIVIL discussion when the word "troll" is being thrown around by the accusing side; it's a charged word designed to provoke a reaction. Our editors are, in fact, human and react as such. And, I suspect, HiLo is human as well. Sounds like we all just need to move on. DocumentError (talk) 21:53, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Make the personal attacks irrelevant. Let's consider Jayron's point above. So, let's give up trying to restrict HiLo48. A better way is for everyone who considers HiLo48's behavior to be less than ideal to not be provoked when he goes over the mark. Instead, let's all be extra nice to HiLo, and respond to any provocations by staying cool without giving a flinch. Then if there is canvassing and he does not repond constructively to queries about that, take that up with the other involved editors. If HiLo has an outburts of anger, then consider that to be mostly a problem for himself (it's not good for his health). Count Iblis (talk) 17:17, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
    Yes, let's all allow HiLo48 to tell other editors to "fuck off" etc, he's clearly very proud of it as it continues to do so, like a "big boy", because clearly HiLo48 needs us to do that for his "health". You're right. We should forget what others say to him and allow him to outburst however best suits him, regardless of the collateral damage. After all, I regularly tell my colleagues to "fuck off" at work, despite their or my social and mental disabilities. Not. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:58, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
    He is not your colleague. Here on Wikipedia you don't have a boss who has assigned HiLo as your co-worker with whom you have to share your office. If HiLo doesn't communicate well, you are free to ignore him and continue to collaborate more with other people. If HiLo behaves like a 5 year old throwing tantrums when he doesn't get his way, nothing stops you from actually treating like a 5 year old child. Give him a candy and move on. Count Iblis (talk) 18:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
    Yep, you don't understand that we're working collaboratively here. If someone suddenly tells someone else to "fuck off", that's highly inappropriate. Now, as I've mentioned above, many editors here are able to do that with exemption, as they massively increase the encyclopaedic contents of Wikipedia. I'm not sure the same is true here, by any means. But yes, if I could, I'd "give him a candy". Problem is, he just keeps coming back for more and keeps the swear festival going. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:32, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
    Saying these discussions are not productive is not the same thing as saying that we should condone telling people to "fuck off" or anything else. The issue is so much not "should people be allowed to tell others to fuck off" and so much more "have we ever seen a discussion where we get mad at someone telling someone to fuck off result in anything useful being done." I don't want HiLo to tell people to fuck off, but I also don't see how discussions like this stop him from doing so. It's pointless. Being opposed to these sorts of exercises in futility is not the same as being in support of treating people badly. --Jayron32 19:48, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • And meanwhile, he's seriously wasting everyone's time on the CC discussions with hit-and-run and liar-liar and general sniping. Really, consensus has been reached, a dozen or two other articles doing the exact same thing without a peep of complaint for years have been identified, policy is absolutely clear, and it's being dragged on with the spectre of a completely pointless edit-war hovering in the background until someone drops a hammer, stick, or whatever. Totally disruptive, totally worthless. Choor monster (talk) 18:06, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I recommend that, when you want your claims to be taken seriously, claiming that "consensus has been reached" on an article that clearly still has numerous good faith editors debating an issue is not the best strategy.--Yaksar (let's chat) 20:32, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • WP:CONSENSUS has been reached. You are thinking of unanimity. The responses of the naysayers are lacking any coherence, relevance, and they dodge and weave everywhere. They are not "debating" the issue. They are not applying anything based on policy. I see no effort made at good faith in their contributions to the discussions. Choor monster (talk) 22:48, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • How is his behavior not disruptive? Of course it is, just look at this thread and the insanely long thread on BLP/N. He is wasting editors' time on stuff we shouldn't. I find it incomprehensible that some here are advocating for others to develop thick skins, instead of telling this editor to stop the bloody nonsense. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I recall being treated very badly by HiLo48 - to the point I want no contact with him and dropped off Wikipedia for a while. Just happened to spot this while looking for something else. Legacypac (talk) 21:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • HiLo48 has always seemed like a proactive, civil editor each time I've observed his interactions (we haven't actively edited together but I've watched several pages he's active on). After reading the diffs provided it seems like this is just a content dispute that maybe doesn't belong at ANI. Unless I missed something, I don't see anything remarkable in any of HiLo48's comments or edits. Please remember, ANI is the place to bring major incidents, not to kneecap one's editorial "opponents." DocumentError (talk) 21:48, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Regardless of any civility issues with HiLo48, he is completely justified in objecting to the use of the word "poaching" in reference to recruiting people from one sporting code to another. A neutral term is available, but Gibson Flying V reverts any edits. In all of the many discussions on the term, Gibson Flying V is more or less in a minority of one. It's got to the point where a topic ban comes into consideration. MaxBrowne (talk) 16:20, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
    • By saying, "Regardless of any civility issues with HiLo48..." you admit that nothing coming after that belongs in this thread. The great thing about having provided links to those discussions you mention is that I save myself the trouble and embarrassment of attempting to sway other editors by describing their outcomes here. --Gibson Flying V (talk) 23:31, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Admission that content contribution excuses incivility[edit]

"Yep, you don't understand that we're working collaboratively here. If someone suddenly tells someone else to "fuck off", that's highly inappropriate. Now, as I've mentioned above, many editors here are able to do that with exemption, as they massively increase the encyclopaedic contents of Wikipedia. I'm not sure the same is true here, by any means."

The Rambling Man [20]

This is one of those unwritten rules of Wikipedia that we're all familiar with, but I do not recall it ever being stated so plainly. Here we have an editor accused of a pattern of rudeness, culminating in a recent "fuck off" retort. "If only he wrote more Featured Articles or contributed to more Good Articles, and so on, then he could be rude "with exemption" due to his "massive" contributions. Am I the only one that sees a "rules are for thee but not for me" dichotomy here? Tarc (talk) 21:51, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
GREAT point, Tarc. It sounds like we all need to just move-on. I don't think this ANI is really accomplishing anything except to derail valuable edit time. DocumentError (talk) 21:57, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
"This is one of those unwritten rules of Wikipedia that we're all familiar" There are a lot of a legitimate "unwritten" rules I suppose, but this isn't one of them. This is simply a perception that has been propagated. But anyone, regardless of content creation, is subject to civility guidelines and crossing the line enough times or showing a pattern is likely to garner sanctions. How long those stick depends on the community. There is a general, rough consensus that prolific content creators should not just be automatically blocked unless the offense is quite severe. Discussion, however is generally closed quickly. Most of the time the discussions are more heated then enlightening and people tend to be more passionate about a sanction being imposed by the anger that is natural from being the one on the receiving end of incivility, but such reaction is why most discussions about civility enforcement go wrong. That...and a good portion of the time the issue is not as much civility but not approving of cuss words on the editor's own talk page.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:28, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
"...but this isn't one of them". Sorry, but that's either hopeless naiveté or willful avoidance. Tarc (talk) 00:41, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Over a supposed "unwritten" rule? Well....I'm not just smiling over the above...I'm giggling just a bit.;-)--Mark Miller (talk) 00:46, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Mark Miller: There is a general rough, consensus that prolific content contributors should not just be automatically blocked unless the offense is quite severe. Discussion, however is generally closed quickly.
Can you please clarify what this means and who you' re speaking for? Lightbreather (talk) 01:50, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
I am not speaking of or "for" anyone in particular. But the general consensus over a broad range of discussions on AN, ANI, WP:WER and many other locations indicates a general, rough consensus that editors with a high content count should not be blocked automatically in regards to civility complaints without community discussion, unless these are very obvious and egregious violations. The reason is that civility can be ambiguous. Of course...I could be wrong. I am not "Super Wikiman". ;-) However, I have spent a good deal of time reading through a good deal of these discussion from the past two or three years.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:09, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

By the way, this "admission" is not endorsed by me, it's a plain statement of fact, I have observed it many times here. Stating it doesn't mean I agree with it. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:48, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Nope. It's a plain statement of opinion. If you feel it is fact I would need a demonstration of this. This will most likely be added to the current arb Com case as evidence. Sorry....but you have absolutely no right to claim this as fact without proof. --Mark Miller (talk) 01:59, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm fully aware that this might be interpreted as circular reasoning, but if HiLo's behavior is not an issue for other editors, why in God's name does he keep popping up on ANI on a monthly basis for incivility issues? Someone file an RFC and get this over with.--WaltCip (talk) 15:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to answer that one. I get in the way of POV pushers, perhaps more than most other editors on Wikipedia. I do it firmly. The POV pushers hate it. They will try anything to get rid of me. This is certainly the case this time. Sometimes my firmness has been more successful than I dreamed, when the event of them bringing me here has led to them being blocked. BTW, these POV pushers have included Admins on more than one occasion. Of course, they never get blocked. HiLo48 (talk) 23:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Group censorship and harassment[edit]

Hello, people. Weekly Shōnen Jump has been the subject of group censorship and harassment over the last few days by User:SephyTheThird, User:TheFarix, User:Koavf and User:Materialscientist, and now things have gone to a point where blocks and bans are necessary. A user [21] added content but was reverted [22] with no reason. A second user also added content [23] but was reverted three times [24] [25]. This is censorship and cannot continue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sacred Soul 333 (talkcontribs) 03:02, 1 October 2014 (UTC) Sacred Soul 333 (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I'm seeing a lot of sockpuppets of User:Cow cleaner 5000 (by the way, you're probably going to be investigated for connections to Cow cleaner 5000 soon) making argumentative edits against WP:NPOV, and the article being corrected by the upstanding individuals you named. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:08, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Well the page is semi protected, would pending changes be of any more help? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:12, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Bit of a minor quibble, but I'm not sure how changes that do not mention or involve a living person qualify as harrassment. --Richard Yin (talk) 04:02, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Fake sources are still fake, regardless of how many sockpuppet accounts you create to include it, Cow cleaner 5000. Attempts to vandalize the article will simply not be tolerated. —Farix (t | c) 20:40, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Said users accused of 'censorship' and 'harassment' are preventing the magazine being classified by a vandal as a terrorist organization, which CC5000 has taken to AfD several times under that claim (and permanent move protection has had to be rendered to stop several pagemoves comparing it to ISIS and Al Qaeda). The only 'censorship' going on is the removal of idiotic content and personal rants by CC5000, and the page protection is appropriate. In fact, seeing as it's been taken to several never-to-be deleted AfD's, is there a way to permanently protect it from the process so CC5000's undoubtedly lined-up roster of auto-confirmed accounts (which is why we're here even with a bunch of tools protecting the article) can't nom it again? Nate (chatter) 04:45, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I know I shouldn't say this (it's usually wise not to get involved with sockpuppet dramas, as it puts oneself under suspicion), but come on... Nate, we've already won. We can't accomplish any more by calling them idiotic and ranting. (Them as in sockpuppetter and his/her possible read friends.) Because in the likely case we're right, it's not any use. In the unlikely case that we're wrong, and (some of) them aren't really sockpuppets at all, we'd be harrassing them with these. I mean how'd you like it if I kept endlessly denouncing you for comments made by someone else? Nerdy Community Dude talkmy edits 03:42, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Did you even delve into the page history of the article above at all, or when my comment was made? I made these comments three days ago before the OP was blocked. Sorry, but I'm not happy when someone who feels they were 'oppressed' but is instead trying to redirect from their vandalism tries to take it to ANI to get those acting on the vandalism sanctioned somehow. Sorry to be blunt, but it's stupid (and I called the content 'idiotic', not the user, who definitely knows how to game our systems if a general semi-protect is ineffective). I've been following this over the last month, and it's something that needs all the tools we have so the page isn't polluted with this nonsense CC5000 is trying to add. Anyways, all this is moot, as Sacred Soul 333 was revealed as a sock and this should be closed. Nate (chatter) 18:22, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Sorry. You were indeed 100% right I didn't see the page history.
I also shouldn't have talked the way I did. I don't even know what it is, but rereading my comment I don't sound like a friendly or very understanding person.
I think all I was bothered by was the mere fact that you explained "The only 'censorship' going on is the removal of idiotic content and personal rants by CC5000, and the page protection is appropriate." The point was already repeated... but don't worry about yourself. It's my issue this time. Nerdy Community Dude talkmy edits 04:01, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
I think the "come on" I said was needlessly snarky. But there's something more about my comment it just seemed combative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nerdy Community Dude (talkcontribs) 04:03, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Editor adding refspam[edit]

This is a spam only account with no useful contributions. Like any spam or vandalism only account it can be blocked on sight. In this case the user got a full array of warnings including a final warning and has continued since then. I have blocked the account with the reason Spam only account. Spamming after final warning. No useful contributions, not here to write an encyclopedia. Chillum 16:17, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Graemekahn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

This editor is adding references to a blog despite warnings to stop. [26] Judging from this link added here the blog posts are copy-pastes from other sources including Wikipedia articles. --NeilN talk to me 15:50, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry this is my first time using Wikipedia and was trying to find missing citations for a computer lesson. Sorry my teacher has told me wrong instructions how to do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graemekahn (talkcontribs) 15:56, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting set of articles you or your teacher has chosen. --NeilN talk to me 16:00, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't see any attempts to engage User:Graemekahn on his talk page, just a set of templated warnings followed by a report to ANI. Is that really the best you can offer by way of helping a new user who is making mistakes and doesn't know his way around? (That question is directed at User:NeilN, who raised this report, and at those who templated Graemekahn's talk page). Neatsfoot (talk) 16:03, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
    No, strike that, with my apologies - after an (edit conflict), I see that this guy has been adding links to sex-related sites, so the school teacher thing doesn't wash. Neatsfoot (talk) 16:06, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
    • I also replied to his edit requests. --NeilN talk to me 16:08, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal for a ban on User:Malusia22[edit]

Judging from how much of a nuisance he has been, and a pain for editors to deal with (as he would hide his tracks and thus make his hoaxes look clean in the eyes of administrators and other users), I would like to ask for a consensus on whether Malusia should be banned from editing. I had a bit of a hard time when I came across this lad, and judging from the harassment and gross vandalism directed at myself and User:WayKurat, I'd say the time has come for him to be booted off for good. Blake Gripling (talk) 01:33, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I've never heard of this editor, and you cited no diffs.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:51, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Malusia22 (talk · contribs) was indef'd several days ago, and there's plenty of IP weirdness on his user and talk pages. There's also Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Malusia22Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:59, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
That, and also the