Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive876

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User:Coffee[edit]

More than enough has been said here. If you are not happy with the result, or non-result, please take it to arbitration. Once a thread gets to sufficient length, un-involved editors are deterred from giving it a thorough review, and the conversation inevitably deteriorates, creating needless bad will among editors. Jehochman Talk 19:54, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In the last 24 hours I've seen a lot of worrying blocks coming in from Coffee. The block on User:Giano concerns me greatly in particular as I know Giano, and he's one of our most respected users and he's really not the type to be involved in petty sock puppetry. Coffee has blocked Giano here claiming harassment of another user. Reasons and diffs not given. Several hours later, the ip 86.130.84.147, registered to Tamworth, St Helens, near Birmingham, made a series of reverts to Giano's talk page, which led Coffee to lock Giano's talk page with this summary, where he seems to imply that Giano is using his ip address to edit his talk page and engaging in sock puppetry. The offending person's ip is registered to Tamworth, St Helens, near Birmingham, which if you look through his contributions you'll see that he used some offensive terms on Knowledgekid's talk page like "the nigger is learning" , so in effect it looks to me as if Coffee believes Giano guilty of such comments and is the same person. Now I'm pretty sure Giano lives a good 100 miles from where the ip is registered and that it couldn't possibly be him. It does look to me as if User:Coffee believes this IP to be Giano and should have done a checkuser and confirmed the identity of somebody before resorting to extreme measures. I ask for a decent admin here to compare the ip which Coffee obviously assumes is Giano to the ip behind Giano's account and to prove Giano's innocence in the matter. In doing so I expect Coffee to be sanctioned for (wrongly) taking offensive action without proof and to apologise to Giano for wrongly accusing him for these actions, subsequent to his blocking.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Minor correction: Actually, the racist comment was on the IP's talk page and occurred after it was blocked. I just noticed this because I was the person who reverted that edit. So while the edit may very well have been referring to Knowledgekid87, I cannot be certain. That is all I really have to say. Dustin (talk) 19:53, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I have notified User:Coffee about this thread. Is there any reason you didn't? Reyk YO! 11:02, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I linked his name to summon him...♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Please see the box at the top of this page, where it says in big red text: "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} to do so." If a link is acceptable we need to update that. I hope it's not, since notifications are known to be less than 100% reliable, even when you remember to sign in the same edit. ―Mandruss  13:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
If admins can't even notify users of discussions, what hope do the rest of us have in following the process? Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 13:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it does amuse me that. I could name 101 and a half things admins and others must do here but don't..♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • If User:Coffee is accusing this IP of being Giano, I agree that it's a ludicrous accusation. Even Giano's harshest critics wouldn't believe that he'd make comments like "the nigger is learning" or "hey knowledgetwat you got what you deserved. As regards Coffee's initial block, as I read it it was for this comment, in which case it seems a very odd ground for blocking. – iridescent 11:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • In providing that diff did you bother actually reading that diff? Giano wasn't blocked for sockpuppetry. Giano's page was protected allowing only autoconfimed users. This is not an indication that or accusation that Giano has been involved with sockpuppetry. Giano as the block log shows, was blocked for 1 day for personal attacks, and then for a further day for their behavior on the talk page. Why don't you get caught up with what's going on before you bring it here?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 11:12, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, Giano was blocked for "harassment of another user", but if you look at the summary here later on, it looks as if Coffee believes Giano to be the ip causing the disruption. There's no evidence of sockpuppetry. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Geolocation of IPs within the UK is effectively useless; within the largest ISPs like BT (this one) and TalkTalk, a user can "move" hundreds of miles when their address is automatically changed. Apparently I'm in Sheffield today; yesterday I was apparently in Cambridge. So it's false to think that the user of 46.208.59.195 is anywhere near Tamworth, and it's false to infer that any given BT address is, or isn't, someone based on geographic proximity. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 11:16, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I always drive a few hundred miles down to Kent to make my sockpuppet insults. But then I'm one of our least respected users. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, I think Dr Blofeld must have got the reason for the block wrong: there was no accusation that Giano was using an IP. Just for information: Coffee removed Giano's talkpage access and I have restored it, with a fairly elaborate rationale and some comments about Coffee's recent admin actions.[4] No need to repeat it all here. Bishonen | talk 11:52, 28 February 2015 (UTC).

In fairness the ip was actually blocked about 3 hours later after Giano, but it's this summary here in which he calls the ip a "sockpuppet" which I assumed Coffee believed was Giano. If "sockpuppetry" was not the chief reason for the block, I still see no real evidence that he was continually harassing anybody last night, and I think that preventing him from editing even his talk page was a bit much. Whatever the case, I do think Coffee is rather trigger happy with the block button and needs to take more care with issuing them. Blocking four or five editors in quick succession seems a bit overboard to me, and I believe that Coffee should have left some of them to another admin to decide.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:00, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

  • I am familiar with Giano's long history. (1) He has never engaged in sock puppetry. (2) He has never made racist remarks. Given that the block is based on faulty conclusions, and I have looked but not found any diffs that show blockable harassment, I am of a mind to reverse this block as an obvious error. Given that Coffee is offline for the last four hours and the block duration does not leave that much time for discussion, I think it should be undone in about 15 minutes if there are no objections from uninvolved editors. Jehochman Talk 12:45, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • SupportChed :  ?  13:00, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Yesterday I told Coffee I was considering opening a review of his unblock because there's been a lot of drama concerning that user and the next thing I knew Coffee blocked Giano for responding to a post I made. If that's the reason Giano got blocked, it's about the most ludicrous block I've yet to see. Victoria (tk) 13:12, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock. This edit summary seems wholly without foundation, and the block seems like a draconian overreaction to a possible misunderstanding. I think Jehochman's assessment has it just about right. Squinge (talk) 13:20, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
    As per below, I must add that I understood the page was protected for the given reason and that the block was not for socking, but I see no evidence of "Persistent sock puppetry" on the talk page. It just seemed like further overreaction making a bad situation even worse. Squinge (talk) 15:12, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock for the reasons I set out below. --RexxS (talk) 13:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock - Giano is not a long term disruptive editor at all. Hafspajen (talk) 16:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Indifferent on unblock, but if unblocked, Giano should be warned in the strongest of terms for their recent incivility and personal attacks. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:14, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unblock per my comment below. –Davey2010Talk 21:41, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Proposal[edit]

  • Coffee's rationale for extending Giano's block "Questioning users sanity is once again in violation of our policies" (from the block log at 00:13), was based on this comment from Giano: "can we just have the example (diff) of this dreadful transgression. Purely for the amusement of our more sane editors". Frankly that comment - particularly from someone who's just been blocked - was a long way short of the alleged "questioning users [sic] sanity". I'm afraid that the degree of competence needed from an admin just isn't being displayed by Coffee's recent performance since he returned from his break. I therefore propose that the community takes this opportunity to set some limits on this admin's behaviour:
I propose that the community bans Coffee from using the block tool indefinitely. --RexxS (talk) 13:25, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose I admit Coffee can sometimes seem like they have their finger on the trigger more than the average admin, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. If it wasn't for Coffee's diligently scouring ANI fusterclucks and closing appropriately -- even if it means a potentially controversial block -- User:Juzumaru might still be trolling me in machine-translated Japanese every few months despite never contributing to Wikipedia. One bad block -- if it even is that; I haven't looked into it -- doesn't change that. If consensus is against that one block, then unblock them. If this happened repeatedly, then repercussions might be called for, but this looks more like someone saw one potentially problematic block, noticed the admin blocked several other accounts in a short time frame, and put 2 and 2 together to get 5. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:46, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
"finger on the trigger more than the average admin" -is never a good thing either is it?♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:56, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
@User:Dr. Blofeld: I dunno. You try wading through this TLDR fustercluck and tell me if any one of the following applies:
  1. even if Coffee had not had blocking privileges, another admin would have come along and taken the proper action before the thread was archived and I was forced back to square one;
  2. Coffee made the wrong call, Juzumaru was not the obviously NOTHERE troll he appeared to all involved to be, and so the latter should be unblocked immediately and receive an apology from both Coffee and myself;
  3. Juzumaru was a NOTHERE troll, but my ANI thread had been poorly formatted (or it was my own damn fault Juzumaru filled it up with article content spam and made it unreadable for passing admins) and so the thread should have been archived with no result and I should have been forced to endure his trolling until some kindly admin came along and blocked him out of the goodness of their hearts;
  4. same as 3 but I would not have to wait for an admin with a heart of gold, because reposting ANI threads on the same topic immediately after they were archived without result is a great idea and will totally warm the admin corps to cause and get the result I'm asking for.
Note that I'm not saying trigger-happy admins are a good thing in general, but your above post implies they can never be a good thing. I can't see how that could be right given the Juzumaru fustercluck I linked above. If indeed 2 was the case and Juzumaru was a good-faith Wikipedian who was victimized by a spiteful admin, he could have appealed the block and it would have almost certainly passed. Note that I myself once fell victim to an admin who carelessly made the good-faith mistake of blindly trusting a block-request placed on that admin's talk page by a particularly spiteful troll (the admin soon apologized, so it's water under the bridge) so don't think I'm in favour of admins not being expected to at least apologize when they make the wrong call. But other admins have got away with worse in the past, and as far as I'm concerned those admins have contributed less to Wikipedia in terms of the number of NOTHERE trolls they have caught.
Hijiri 88 (やや) 16:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Trigger happy admins can never be a good thing, Hijiri 88. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:06, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
@User:Anthonyhcole: Are you going to appeal Juzumaru's block, then? The "trigger-happy" admin Coffee took the initiative of blocking that troll per WP:NOTHERE and you are now seriously arguing that that is a bad thing? Hijiri 88 (やや) 17:45, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
And a stopped clock is right twice a day. Generally, though, I like my clocks to have a bit more rigor. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:53, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
@User:Anthonyhcole: Bad blocks can always be undone, and my understanding is that any admin has the power to unilaterally overturn a block that was unilaterally imposed by another admin. Now, blocking newbies who made good-faith mistakes is a violation of WP:BITE, and i's a problem since those users are less likely to come back after their blocks expire, or to appeal their blocks if they are indefinite, and we might lose good potential editors that way. But folks like Giano need to have thicker skin than that. There seems, though, to be something of a trend among those arguing for repercussions against Coffee that "he unilaterally blocked experienced Wikipedia editors and good content contributors, therefore he must be punished".
But, unlike making a bad block here and there, allowing bad users to go free because ANI threads were poorly formatted (the subject wasn't "sexy" enough to immediately attract the attention of a large number of editors, leaving the accused user to derail the whole thread by turning it into an article content fustercluck...), is very worrisome. Juzumaru was not the first, nor the last to cause me this kind of trouble, and I can't imagine I'm alone in this matter. I not long ago had to promise that if the most recent example of this is not dealt with by the current ANI thread, I would wait a few days before taking it back here: but why on earth should I -- or any other good faith Wikipedia editor -- be forced to endure any more of this abuse after already filing a perfectly good ANI report and spending a good deal of time diligently writing up a fair summary of the events and providing all the diffs, just because some admins (and non-admin observers) were too lazy to read and see whether my story checked out? Why can't there be more admins like Coffee, who actually read through difficult ANI discussions and work out solutions rather than just hoping problems go away by themselves once the threads get archived???
Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:40, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure about indefinitely, but I do think that Coffee's blocking rights should be stripped from him for a given duration, like a month or so until he can learn to really take more care with issuing them and to avoid further blocking editors who dispute his initial blocks. As he said to Eric, blocking him for a longer duration might change his behaviour. If Coffee really believes that then perhaps a removal of Coffee's blocking rights for a given period instead of permanently might work. Then if he does this again in the future I think even a stripping of adminship would be appropriate.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:32, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Strong Support: He needs to be desysopped for gross dishonesty. If he wants to set himself up as a second-rate Machiavelli; he needs to sharpen up. Quite what he thought he was doing last night is baffling. Trying to silence all opposition and free speech regarding the so called militant women editors and their hangers-on is not the way to win his or their battle. Giano (talk) 13:39, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Indefinite doesn't mean infinite, as we're often reminded. I would like to see Coffee kept away from making blocks until he has demonstrated the maturity and judgement suited to the responsibility of that function. I have no quarrel with his other admin actions, and because of the hassle and slowness of taking an admin to ArbCom for desysopping, I believe the community could show its will in this case and circumscribe his actions for now. --RexxS (talk) 13:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Well Rexx, Hijiri88 does imply that Coffee has a history of trigger happy blocks, so I'd have to agree with you until he can really change his problematic behaviour. It's a lot safer for the community that way. If he's willing to change then it can be readdressed at a later date.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:59, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment This ANI appears to have been filed because Coffee applied reasonable administrative action to Eric Corbett and Giano. Administrators are wp:not perfect, but I see no evidence here that supports misconduct on Coffee's part. People say Lightbreather incites too much drama, and at times I tend to agree, but honestly, that seems minimal in comparison to the drama incited by the WP:ENTITLED when an administrator has the courage to adhere to WP:Equality. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 14:25, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, gotta disagree. There's a situation going on and not everyone is aware, but it has nothing at all to do with WP:ENTITLED or WP:Equality. Coffee's judgement yesterday was flawed and that's concerning to see in an admin. But to make this particular situation an issue about Eric and Giano is incorrect. I've not ever agreed with Rexxs about a single thing: in this instance I do. Victoria (tk) 14:38, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
If you do not think WP:ENTITLED applies here, ask yourself, if an editor who had been here 6 months was blocked in a similar manner for similar conduct, would we have all this fuss? I've had no interaction with Giano that I can recall, but just from the minimal exposure I've had to him recently in relation to the recent Eric Corbett issue, a block for incivility doesn't exactly seem surprising. Recently, I noticed Giano appeared to call Slim Virgin a sexually confused transvestite. [5], and referenced GorillaWarfare's "plaintive, pathetic bleating" [6]. I think this sort of public discussion of fellow editors is less than civil and doesn't do the project much good. It seems like high school bullying and taunts honestly. I am grateful that Coffee appears to have the courage to apply administrative action to long term users, in a manner similar to new users. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 15:14, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • multiple (edit conflict) I'd rather see how Coffee deals with the situation once he returns. I think there were some impulsive and poor administrative actions taken in a short period of time yesterday, and I fully understand Giano's point of view here. Still, if someone is willing to listen to advice, I wouldn't be in favor of "indefinite" (and I do understand that indefinite =/= infinite). — Ched :  ?  14:43, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Per the history indicated in a separate section below, I suggest Coffee voluntarily resign the tools. This is not just an issue of the last few days. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:32, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
    • Clarification: I am assuming that voluntary resignation in this case would be "under a cloud" and that they would not be reinstated without a new RFA. Barring that, I support either desysopping or banning from blocking, but I don't think six months is long enough. I am concerned that this admin doesn't react well to pressure. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Support community ban from using the block tools (blocking and of course also unblocking) for at least six months. Besides Coffee's recent flurry of ill-considered admin actions which people have been describing (including me), this overreaction to criticism of his unblock of Rationalobserver also concerns me: "As I'm getting lit up to some degree for accepting your unblock request... I wanted to formally warn you that if any (and I mean any) type of disruptive behavior comes from you again, you will be blocked by me personally for 6 months". Any type? By me personally? With the current awareness of Coffee's heavy-handed interpretation of "disruption", I really don't think RO should be left with this Damokles sword hanging over her head every time she edits. I mean, a six-month block, come on! Coffee needs to be relieved of access to the banhammer, if only to stop him from following through on that promise. (Which was presumably made to placate the people who dislike his unblock of RO, but it doesn't have that effect on me. One draconian block doesn't negate another.) SandyGeorgia, I'm dubious about your suggestion that it's better Coffee voluntarily resign the tools. That would mean he can pick them up again at any time, unless the 'crats find he resigned them under a cloud (which would indeed be the case, but) both crats and arbcom are historically very reluctant to admit it. On this issue, they tend more to "why can't we all just get along". Bishonen | talk 15:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC).
Damocles, surely? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:51, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
The Latin spelling over the transliterated Greek? Just as you like. Bishonen | talk 16:50, 28 February 2015 (UTC).
  • I support banning Coffee from blocking, unblocking, threatening to block and declining unblock requests indefinitely, with permission to request the lifting of the ban after 12 months. (Added duration 16:59, 28 February 2015 (UTC).) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:45, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't think that is a strong enough solution: he is incompetent and fails to understand policy and correct use of the tools. Consequently, he should be deprived of them completely. As far as I'm concerned, desysopping is the only possible acceptable result.Giano (talk) 15:50, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Don't contradict Bishonen, Giano. No good ever comes from that. That said, it's not either/or. If you can demonstrate incompetence in some other area of admin behaviour - deleting things, closing discussions, editing templates ... whatever it is they do - then I'll definitely support a desysop request to ArbCom. I've been waiting for years to see this community snip off an admin's block tool without going cap in hand to ArbCom. We need to start directly imposing discipline on them. And, as it presently stands, this is an appropriate case for that. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support ban from using block tools and, if possible, investigating the possibility of possible administrative recall and/or ArbCom review of whether Coffee has the community's trust to be an admin, although my first choice would be that Coffee submit himself for a voluntary confirmation RfA or resign the use of the tools voluntarily for a second RfA. I am in no way a fan or supporter of RO, but the unambiguous threat in that comment, along with the recent displays of what seem to my eyes to be extremely poor judgment in general, to my eyes indicate that perhaps this individual's judgment deserves much more serious consideration than it may to date have received. John Carter (talk) 15:53, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose per Hijiri88, BoboMeowCat and Squinge. Coffee seems to be one of the more independent-minded admins around here, and does a good job of keeping drama and tendentiousness from impeding the creation of the encyclopedia. There also seems to be confusion as to whether a UT page was protected or access denied, which in turn tends demonstrate that there was a high level of drama to squelch. if there is a formal admin review process, that would obviously be the way to proceed.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 16:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
    We can decide this here and now. We don't need a special "formal admin review process". This ANI process is good enough to restrict an editor's behaviour, so it's good enough to restrict an admin's. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
There's no confusion. It is indisputable that Coffee protected of Giano's talk page; it is indisputable that Coffee removed Giano's talk page access. It's normal to ask a user before protecting their talk page, but that's not a problematic admin action. However, removing Giano's talk page access in the circumstances was completely ill-judged; particularly when compounded with a doubling of the block as a response to Giano's request to supply a diff showing why he was blocked in the first place. --RexxS (talk) 16:34, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Desysop (or block ban) – He has a history of poor blocks and incivility. This is just the caster sugar on top of a Victoria sandwich. Plenty of these transgressions are described below. He is not fit for administrative duty. Strip him of his rank. If he demonstrates that he is able act in the manner that an administrator should, his tools can be returned after an RfA. RGloucester 16:20, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose per Ubikwit, Hijiri88 and my above comment. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 16:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment. I'd never even heard of Coffee until recently. Having looked at their contribution history and long periods of inactivity, I understand why. I'm not prepared to take a position without doing considerably more investigation, but I have noticed that many of Coffee's comments have been at a minimum heavy-handed, particularly in the context of blocked users. I'm a pretty blunt speaker, but even I was taken aback by Coffee's language and what appears to me to be disproportionate reactions to particular situations.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:34, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

  • I commented on the block review raised by RGloucester a couple of sections down about what I saw as a poor block by Coffee, so my opinion might be coloured by that but he does seem heavy handed with the admin tools. I also have concerns about his closure of these 3 AFDs that were overturned by deletion review in the last few days - Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2015 February 19. However I would like to see his response to the criticisms raised here before any action is taken. Davewild (talk) 16:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support desysop (first choice), or ban from using block tools (per Bishonen). Coffee has repeatedly demonstrated that (s)he has neither the temperament nor the competence to be entrusted with admin powers. In a way it's fortunate that (s)he blundered into this relatively high-profile territory, otherwise the behavior might not have come under such close scrutiny. Writegeist (talk) 18:30, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per Bishonen, Anthonyhcole, and John Carter. This is a series of ill-considered, heavy-handed admin actions, and this should be a perfectly fine place to deal with it. Begoontalk 18:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support community ban of Coffee from using the block tool for at least six months. As an editor with 9 years of no blocks, I depend on a couple of things. First, when an admin tells me "don't do X again" I stop doing X. Even if I am sure that X is allowed and the admin is dead wrong, I stop doing X until our disagreement about policy is resolved. The other side of the coin is that I depend on the admins giving me a clear warning and allowing me to voluntarily stop doing X. A trigger-happy admin destroys that trust. I am also deeply concerned by this comment: "Just so everyone's aware: I will not abide by any topical restrictions laid on my account here. As, I do not feel that the community at ANI has been shown the facts properly. So, if you want to go further down this road, your only avenue is ArbCom."[7] I feel that abiding by community decisions is one of Wikipedia's core values. If a community decision against me was bad enough, I might leave, but I would never, ever refuse to abide by it. And neither should Coffee. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:50, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose It is very clear from this thread that people are jumping on the bandwagon after reading some comments by others without doing their own homework. I recommend arbcom if you don't mind a venue that requires evidence. This is the standard revenge for daring to hold Giano to the standards of the community. While I can tolerate his regular stream of spiteful comments I cannot abide by the community throwing another person under the bus to defend Giano. Chillum 18:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I genuinely resent that. That's not what I'm doing at all. This is a cowboy admin, and we'll tell him/her to put away the block button if we like. If Coffee doesn't like it, he/she can appeal to arbcom. If he/she chooses to ignore the community's behavioural restrictions, we'll block him/her. --Anthonyhcole (talk ·

contribs · email) 19:04, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Me too, not to mention insulting to us as individuals, same goes for Rational observer's comments below. If I'd not been genuinely concerned with the behaviour of Coffee in the way that he blocked multiple editors last night and the backlash I'd not have come here just to defend Giano/Eric for the sake of it. It certainly looked initially as if Coffee was making some unfounded accusations, and I've since seen a fair bit of evidence of genuine misconduct, even in recent days with other users. As somebody said I think it's a good thing that this has happened with a higher profile editor as it's identified an admin who operates in a problematic way, but unfortunately it was at Eric and Giano's expense...♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support desysop. I was instructed to wait for Coffee's side of the story. I did so, and it was nothing but an attempt to divert discussion to the actions of others, minimization of his/her errors, and general defiance of any accountability. They committed at least one blatant violation of a clear, simple, and important block policy, not the kind of thing that one does by mistake. I feel these are not traits we need handling admin tools and responsibilities, backlogs or no backlogs. I have no involvement with, or knowledge of, any of the parties here involved, so it would be very difficult to accuse me of ulterior motives. ―Mandruss  18:57, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Okay for those of you voting for desysop, the community has repeatedly rejected the idea of community desysops. It is the domain of arbcom, not ANI. Chillum 19:02, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
No, that is not part of the process of ANI. If people want to take this to ArbCom, then do it. But this is a complete waste of time. And frankly, it's absurd to try and desysop here for virtually nothing. I'm not voting -Oppose- because there is no vote. Close this and move on. Dave Dial (talk) 19:14, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Even if the blocks and unblock were mistakes, which I don't think they were, many admins have made similar or worse mistakes without losing the bit within a couple of days. This is an overreaction to a stressful couple of days that is, predictably, fueled by a certain group of editors who rarely if ever break rank. I hope that whoever closes this "proposal" has the foresight to notice that the same people who want Coffee desysopped are those who always defend Giano and his circle of friends. I think Wikipedia should stand for more than popularity contests between rival factions of editors. We all have the same goal, and it's long past overdue that we start to put our egos and differences aside for the sake of Wikipedia. This is what happens to admins or anybody else who crosses this particular group of editors, and I think it's paramount to the future vitality of this project that the community reject these types of efforts to silence and intimidate anyone who does not fall in line, because each time this tactic works we move further away from a truly community-run website and closer to an anarchy run by random spheres of influence that do not have the best interests of the community as a whole in mind. Rationalobserver (talk) 19:09, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
    May I ask, in the context of what you promised as part of a successful unblock request, you wrote: "If you unblock me I promise to not repeat the negative and disruptive behaviors that got me blocked." here, why you are making this comment, making allegations about a group of people that is likely to inflame things here? Previously, you also admitted a mistake, apologized here, and later reneged on that promise, and here you are, apparently beginning to do it again! Can you explain this?  DDStretch  (talk) 06:15, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support ecx3 a ban on use of block button, or unblocking, or threatening blocks for 12 months, per Anthonyhcole. A long absence followed by a frenzy of activity including highly controversial, poorly documented, and very possibly bad blocks and unblocks cries out for application of the brakes. Not sure if this rises to the level of a case to desysop at ArbCom, but it is highly troubling. Carrite (talk) 19:12, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Okay THIS does rise to the level of sanctionable administrative abuse, in my opinion. Carrite (talk) 19:18, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose per Ubikwit, Hijiri88, and BoboMeowCat. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:16, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support a temporary injunction on use of block tools but honestly if they are making bad block decisions why not just RFA and be done about it? Or a recall, why go to arbitration, if coffee is confident they still have community support let them go that route. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:20, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, yes, resignation and a new RFA, if desired, would be honourable, and I'd support that course of action too. Hell, I might even support the RFA, depending how it panned out. Just continuing as though nothing happened here, though? No, not an option. Begoontalk 19:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
User:Begoon shit now I can only be right one more time today ;). I thought it was reasonable and think that sweeping it under the rug is bad. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose; this is ludicrous. Ironholds (talk) 19:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Oh, I dunno. An oppose without any rationale is weak, granted - but I think you're probably being a little too hard on yourself there. Begoontalk 20:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support I've got a headache. Jaguar 21:04, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose This is the wrong forum. It is effectively a de-sysop and that should be done by Arbcom. Edison (talk) 21:31, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - I would go far as to say he should be Desysopped but unfortunately we can't!, The block was IMHO utterly pointless but there we go. –Davey2010Talk 21:39, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose: This should go to Arbcom for a proper review. It seems to me that Coffee is being targeted for blocking Eric Corbett (justifiedly, pursuant to an AE discussion) and Giano (an action of potentially dubious merit). Users saying that we should just avoid drama by getting rid of admins who attempt to enforce sanctions against certain editors with large followings, instead of expecting such editors to tone down their own drama, are (I suspect wilfully) trying to undermine the system which sanctions their chums. BethNaught (talk) 21:44, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose because a) this isn't the venue to decide this and b) like Chillum, I have a sense that Coffee is being thrown under the bus as revenge for blocking Giano. Ca2james (talk) 21:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose But just because I'm strongly opposed to the idea of restricting an admin's tool use. If an admin betrays the trust they have been given by the community to the extent that they need aspects of their power cut away and restricted, then they may as well not be an admin at all. Either keep Coffee as a regular admin with full tool usage or desysop them. Bosstopher (talk) 22:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose there are certainly undesirable aspects in Coffee's handling of this situation, but there wouldn't be nearly as much of a backlash if it wasn't Giano who was the recipient of the block. While I firmly side with Giano and Eric Corbett in opposition to Lightbreather, RationalObserver, KnowledgeKid and the like, it is undeniable that Giano and Eric Corbett both get away with far more than the average Wikipedian. Even if Giano was subjected to a bad block, his behavior here has been very vindictive and spiteful. If Coffee is sanctioned because of this situation, it will just make the other admins more hesitant to deal with future problems caused by Giano. On a final note, while I don't support such action in this case, I do think that the community should be allowed to restrict an admin's tool usage without going to ArbCom. Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 22:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose I saw the diff and this was a good block. If anything, we need more admins like Coffee to step up to the plate like this. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:21, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Desysop Following a different admin decision by this user which seemed irrational, I looked at their user pages. These state
  1. "My other lines of work include the United States Air Force where I worked ... before being placed on medical status."
  2. "This user has Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder."
Our article on PTSD states that it has "commonly associated behavioral symptoms such as anxiety, ruminations, irritability, aggression, suicidality, and impulsivity."
After I read this, I did not wish to engage with them further as I was uncertain how to approach them and so walked away from the matter. Taking their own words at face value, it seems that they are not fit for duty and so they should be suspended as an admin here. Andrew D. (talk) 23:11, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Are you trying to compete with RGloucester for the most ridiculous comment of the day? Chillum 23:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm familiar with the disorder, and don't think for a moment it disqualifies a person from adminship. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:30, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support After the account sharing scandal (when he was still known as User:Chet B Long) he was eventually given the tools back but it is becoming clear that he is still prone to immature, impulsive, reckless and cowboy behaviour. Keri (talk) 00:17, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose I feel that Coffee is doing what is best to prevent disruption on Wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Not enough actual evidence. Too many personal attacks and old grudges. I think we need admins willing to make tough or controversial actions, and Coffee does so. I don't always agree with him, but this pile-on is completely unwarranted. If there's evidence, take it to Arbcom. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:26, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Coffee's unblock has caused an enormous amount of disruption. The hurt experienced by some editors only rubs salt in the wounds and further divides this community. Coffee has made no attempt to understand, but defends is actions as normal. No attempt at consensus, even with a blocking admin. EChastain (talk) 03:17, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I am opposed to any sanctions being imposed on Coffee. I am sorry to be on the other side of the fence to some editors whom I know personally and regard as some of my closest Wikipedia friends, but in my opinion this entire issue, which has taken nearly three hours of reading including following all the links, etc, and three large mugs of coffee, is fast becoming drama for the sake of drama which unfortunately is the kind of entertainment we don’t really need, unless it is the completely implausible comment at the end by SPECIFICO. As to Coffee’s alleged misuse of tools and/or admin judgement/powers, I have no reason to believe he was acting in other than good faith. That rules out 'cowboy' behaviour, even if this, which doesn't demonstrate a pattern was a bit OTT, and that’s the hinge here: was he deliberately abusing the trust invested in him by the community at his RfA? The answer has to be ‘No’. Should he be desysoped, T-banned, tool-banned, blocked? Again, IMO, the answer is ‘No’. Should this ANI serve as sufficient warning in and of itself? Yes. Should Coffee consider voluntarily refraining from use of his block button for a while? Yes.
While comments by Chillum are consistent throughout the discussion, especially his words here. this comment by Ironholds holds more than a mere modicum of truth.
As regards desysoping, can this ANI reach such a verdict? No, because there are no codes of conduct and participation here such as there are at Arbcom, per Chillum [8]; we still have no official policy for community desysoping, and Arbcom is the only venue where kangaroo and mob kustice is not possible. If the community cannot see its way clear here to give this a rest now, then Arbcom is the next step. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:43, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment. Kudpung and Chillum are absolutely right. Anyone who looks squarely at how things actually unfold on Wikipedia knows that the terms under which admins operate is wholly controlled by the admins themselves. No admin has ever been desopped for something as trivial as abusing content builders. They are desopped only if they tread on the powers of other admins. C'mon, move on. There is a backlog of content builders yet to be administered. --Epipelagic (talk) 04:24, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support as a temporary solution until a formal desysop procedure (Arbcom?) is handled by someone who has the time and effort. EoRdE6(Come Talk to Me!) 06:36, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose- just to cancel Andrew Davidson's support, which I consider to be nothing more than a spiteful and irrelevant personal attack. Reyk YO! 10:28, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Strongest Possible Oppose Coffee is one of the few admins not in the thrall of the Cult of Corbett, and has the courage to stand up to editors like Eric, Giano, and a parade of others who believe the rules don't apply to them, and who make this environment so hostile to women editors (not wimmin, not militant feminists, just women, most of whom don't dare stand their ground for fear of being branded with these and other comparable labels and/or harassed by men to frightened of them to afford them a minimum of respect.) --Drmargi (talk) 19:35, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Please put this canard to rest[edit]

In the possibly vain hope of getting people to read all the words, after vainly trying to argue by e-mail, I'm giving this its own section. Squinge, Blofeld, Giano himself and some others have all misunderstood this diff. It gives Coffee's reason for protecting Giano's page. Protecting it. Not for removing G's talkpage access, that's a completely separate action. "Persistent sock-puppetry" is one of the standard reasons offered in a drop-down menu when an admin protects a page, and Coffee chose it because it was appropriate. There had been persistent sock-puppetry on the page (well, if two instances is persistent, but still), by a disruptive IP who had also done a lot of far more vicious stuff, such as this. There was no question of Coffee assuming it was Giano's IP. None. I think Coffee has been acting like a cowboy admin, and I've told him so, but accusing Giano of socking and/or racism is something he has not done. All right? Is it possible to put this canard to rest, before it flies even further? Please, everybody, and please, Giano, stop perpetuating it. And I'm glad to see Giano has been unblocked. Bishonen | talk 14:06, 28 February 2015 (UTC).

  • I am also very glad to see Giano has been unblocked. Shouldn't Coffee's reversal of another Admin's two week block without any discussion with the blocking Admin not also be questioned? SagaciousPhil - Chat 14:21, 28 February 2015 (UTC)  
Support Sagaciousphil. Coffee's reversal of Ddstretch's two week block of Rationalobserver without any discussion and without looking at the history of the user's behaviour should be questioned.[9] EChastain (talk) 16:08, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not convinced Bishonen, but even if he wasn't accusing Giano of sockpuppetry and indirectly of racism, then there's a clear problem with the way he handled it. The concerning thing to me is that even the editor who strong opposes removing Coffee's blocking rights states that he has a history of trigger happy blocking. If he doesn't learn his lesson from this, then he's going to keep doing it and potentially we'll lose a lot of editors. I don't think a removal of blocking rights for a month would be unreasonable here.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

  • I understood that it was protected for the given reason, but I see no evidence of "Persistent sock puppetry". It just seemed like further overreaction making a bad situation even worse. But I should have made myself clearer, and have now done so above. Squinge (talk) 15:13, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
File:Bishzilla attacks.JPGEverybody listen to Bishonen OR ELSE!!! File:Dealer the Labrador Retriever and a redhead duck.jpg ... or be put to rest like this canard]]
— Preceding unsigned comment added by MONGO (talkcontribs)
  • For once, I do not agree with Bishonen, at the very least Coffee was deliberatly muddying the water regarding the sockpuppetry allegation. I certainly believe I have been accused of that and extreme racism, and so do many others viewing the diff. Unfortunatly, mud sticks and I'm not having some incompetent admin throwing filthy mud at me. Giano (talk) 15:38, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Coffee deliberately refused to explain the reason for blocking me [10] because it was unjustifiable. He then takes away talk page access Wwith no explanation) presumably for one of these two edits [11] [12]. This is not acceptable; he needs to be desysopped before he harms the project further. Giano (talk) 15:33, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Finally some pictures at ANI. Was missing that. Life is so dull without pictures on pages. Hafspajen (talk) 16:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
The Bishzilla picture was salvaged from the remains of a camera...we found no trace of the camera person.--MONGO 16:19, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I've refactored the images per longstanding ANI practice. NE Ent 21:21, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Query past Coffee admin action[edit]

I am not an admin, and may need to be "informed", but I was unaware that it was ever appropriate for a blocking admin to also deny an unblock request. Is it? I observed an incident a year ago, involving a contentious and difficult AFD where one party who had responded to talk page warnings and ceased disruption was blocked by Coffee days later, who then denied the unblock request her/himself, while another party who appeared to be equally disruptive was allowed to continue. I queried Coffee here, where s/he stood by the decision. Can a blocking admin also deny an unblock request, or should that not be an uninvolved admin? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:57, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

  • I agree that unblock requests should generally be handled by an admin other than the blocker. Reyk YO! 15:02, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • The very purpose of an unblock request is that uninvolved admins review the process and then decide upon the merit of the request. Therefore I don't see how the performing admin would ever be able to directly deny one unblock request for a block made by themselves. A blocking admin may raise concerns over an unblock to the reviewer but from what can be read here they're not entitled to deny any unblock requests concerning their own blocks because unblocking requests require the action of "an uninvolved administrator acting independently". So I'm afraid but this should not have been decided by Coffee. De728631 (talk) 15:13, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Coffee also stated this in an unblock request he declined. Your history severely conflicts with the bullshit you're laying out here. I don't care what the user did, or what they were purported to do, this is not acceptable. Tutelary (talk) 15:15, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Wow. OK, so some sort of addressing of Coffee's sysop status appears to be in order. The fastest way through these messes is usually for the offender to voluntarily resign the tools. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I think Bishonen's right on the "cowboy admin" actions here, even if Coffee was actually innocent of the sockpuppet accusation aspect of it. An editor above who strongly opposes the banning of Coffee from blocking editors even states that Coffee has a long history of trigger happy behaviour. If he regularly does this it needs to stop; I'd support a month ban on him blocking over this myself. Especially as it seems he's guilty of further misconduct as Tutelary identified above, It really isn't acceptable for admins to talk to people like that.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Wow is right. No canard here. ―Mandruss  15:40, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Wow. Coffee is not the main culprit here. We need to seriously look into the chronic unholy alliance between Bishonen and Gianno that has been going on for so many years and wonder why would Bishonen, as opposed to another uninvolved admin unblock Gianno in the first place. I also don't find Bishonen's multiple other accounts like Bishzilla appropriate for an admin. Time to start talking objectively about this. Time to take away admin tools from both of them. 202.69.240.218 (talk) 15:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Another admin would have done it if she hadn't of. And I think she's acted perfectly professionally, neutrally and appropriately in her response to this. In fact she was the one editor who pointed out that it was not Coffee's intention to block over sock puppetry and label Giano a racist, give her some respect ip! Bishonen could have easily gone with the tide on that one.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:13, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
FWIW IP, Bishonen did not unblock Giano. Bishonen restored Giano's talkpage privillages. GoodDay (talk) 17:18, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Bishzilla has restored this criticism, which had been removed as trolling. I think the point about my restoration of Giano's tpa should stand, for people to consider, even though it would have been nice if the person had been courageous enough to use their account to post here. And both of who is it time to take away admin tools from ? Giano and Bishzilla? They aren't admins. Me and Coffee? We are admins. As for my sockfarm, feel free to take it to arbitration, I think that would be the right venue. Bishonen | talk 16:25, 28 February 2015 (UTC).
  • I won't lie, Bishonen, I was thinking the same thing as the IP in one respect. Near as I can tell from this particular mess, restoring talk page access was the right decision. However, given your history with Giano, you honestly should never be using the admin tools where he is involved. The stuff about admins not being allowed to use alt accounts is bunk though, and I do agree with you that the IP should have made that comment from their logged-in account. Resolute 17:12, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Coffee's prior disdain for both procedure and proportion[edit]

As far as I'm concerned, Coffee is unfit for administrative duty. He has made a series of questionable administrative actions, starting with an inappropriate application of discretionary sanctions that had to be overturned by ArbCom, and an absurd indefinite block. He simply isn't being careful with his tools, despite being told to do so by ArbCom only a week or so ago. This particular exchange really rubbed me the wrong way, and it demonstrates that Coffee has no concern for accountability whatsoever. Any questioning of his actions results in incivility on his part. Is this acceptable behaviour for an administrator? I'd say not. RGloucester 16:05, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

So, RGloucester, that's 2 bad blocks, a bad unblock (Rational Observer) and he declined an unblock request regarding a block he'd imposed. Did he ever adduce any evidence to justify the indefinite block in that case you cited? Now, above, #Davewild has pointed to Coffee's closure of 3 AFDs that were overturned by deletion review in the last few days. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email)
No, he never provided any evidence of disruption that warranted a summary indefinite block. He seems to have a habit of blocking sans any presentation of tangible evidence or reasoning, even if that evidence does exist. His misapplication of DS was particularly grievous to me, given that importance of DS in resolving conflicts in disputed areas. Compromising the DS system would be a disaster for encylopaedia. As I said then, the reason I placed an emphasis on this slippage of justice on Coffee's part was because I knew it could easily slide into something bigger. That's clearly what's happened here, and it is even more clear that Coffee did not take ArbCom's words onboard. He made some conciliatory remarks, but his behaviour has not changed. I have nothing against Coffee, and had no prior interaction with him prior to the Russian editor1996 block. However, I do not think he is fit to be an administrator. Administrators need to be impeccable, or at least open to accountability. Coffee isn't. He needs some time as a regular editor, working on content and the like, before he can ever return to administrative actions in contentious areas. It is clear that he is not capable of handling such situations. RGloucester 19:28, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Any chance we can wait for Coffee to respond to this thread prior to the hanging? We really have not waited to hear his side of the story. Chillum 16:52, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely agree.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:57, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I've got a hard time seeing the block as "absurd". I might not have made it, but there are grounds for it, and, despite RGloucester's protestations, repeated intentional violations of WP:V are grounds for blocking.—Kww(talk) 16:58, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, when it comes to violating unblocking policy and using the word bullshit in response to an unblock request, there's really only one side to the story. If the burden of adminship is too stressful for an individual, we should do them and the project a favor and unburden them. ―Mandruss  17:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I have yet to encounter a situation involving more than one person with only one side to the story. If you honestly think there is only one side to the story then perhaps you have already made up your mind. How about you humor those of us who wish to be in possession of the facts before acting and let us wait for Coffee's response. Chillum 17:19, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I have to agree with Chillum here. The use of the word is objectionable, but there is always the possibility of unknown extenuating circumstances, and it would be a good idea to know if any exist before passing judgment. John Carter (talk) 17:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Absolutely. I eagerly await the rationale for policy violation and verbal abuse. ―Mandruss  17:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I suspect this will end up at RFARB with Coffee's adminship on the line, but honestly, complaining about his use of the word "bullshit" in that instance is akin to being offended about an accused bank robber being hit with a fine for jaywalking. The question in that instance is whether Coffee should have reviewed an unblock request of his own block, not a word choice. Resolute 17:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment by Coffee[edit]

This to me is incredulous. I protected Giano's page from a socking IP who was using a dynamic address to get around blocks and be disruptive, it did not in any way mean that Giano was socking. Giano was warned by me to not make personal attacks directed at other editors, and he decided to do so by calling certain admins gullible to essentially the whims of sexist editors (on Eric's talk page). This was after he had stated on my talk page "Rationalobserver you and the militant and trouble making wimmin of this project" and on Rationalobserver's talk page under the section name "Shit stirrer!": "Need I say more? If the women of Wikipedia need you to fight their corner - then they have a serous problem." He literally requested a block at my talk page, and then proceeded to test the boundaries to see if I would really do it. Eric's block has nothing to do with any of this, as that block was done in accordance with the discussion at AE. If you are willing to call all of my other actions into question now as well just because I blocked an editor with a clear following around them, I'm deeply saddened to have invested the several years I have of administrating this site. There are backlogs everywhere on the admin side, and I'm constantly trying to keep them at bay. Yet no one brings up that work... because apparently that work isn't as important as content creation. I can at least say one thing for sure: things like this definitely show why we have such a low amount of active administrators right now... and it's definitely why we have barely anyone at RFA anymore. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 17:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

It's usually best not to semi-protect someone's page unless they ask you to. But if Giano really said that stuff about "wimmin", he should be re-blocked. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I am sad to say you have stepped into a hornets nest. This response you are finding incredulous is exactly what happens any time someone tries to hold Giano to the same standards we hold the rest of Wikipedia. It will not end well and I doubt reason will prevail. For some reason Giano's block log stops in Feb 2014, but it is actually much longer and a clear pattern of unenforceability is shown by it(where did the rest of his block log go?). Chillum 17:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
There's more of it under the block log of his previous ID, "GiacomoReturned".[13]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:40, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
And more under this id[14], this is the block log I remember. Chillum 17:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Oh Baseball Bugs and Chillum you've forgotten to mention that I am unique on Wikipedia for having a whole section of my block officially wiped clean - a sort of superior oversighting. Perhaps it never filtered down to those editors like the pair of you. You ought to investigate that. It concerns another Admin who nastily took my name in vain. You see if wronged and fighting for a cause, I never give up. Now go and sniff that scandal about me out, but be prepared to be eat humble pie. Giano (talk) 20:40, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Important correction: Y'all mean incredible (or "not credible"), not incredulous. Mr. Language Person (talk) 20:25, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Mr. Language Person: Touché! Coffee // have a cup // beans // 21:18, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Coffee deliberately refused to explain the reason for blocking me [15] because it was unjustifiable. He then takes away talk page access Wwith no explanation) presumably for one of these two edits [16] [17]. This is not acceptable; he needs to be desysopped before he harms the project further. If he's not going to receive a community ban from losing his tools here, then he needs to go to Admin recall or whatever the procedure is. There's no point gong to Arbcom with it because they are just encouraging of the small, militant band of professing (I expect a few of them are men) females and hangers-on who put him up to this. Giano (talk) 17:38, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
    • Your page was semi'd after you were blocked, when 86.130.84.147 (talk · contribs), who's likely somebody's sock (not yours) was trying to cause trouble for you and others. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
    • Just so everyone's aware: I will not abide by any topical restrictions laid on my account here. As, I do not feel that the community at ANI has been shown the facts properly. So, if you want to go further down this road, your only avenue is ArbCom. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 18:19, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Coffee, are you willing to explain your reversal of Ddstretch's two week block of Rationalobserver for "(Disruptive editing: and attacking messages on a variety of talk pages)" less than ten hours later without discussion with Dsstretch? Thanks, EChastain (talk) 18:21, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • EChastain: Yes. It was because I took her promise to not violate our policies again seriously. Me not discussing it with DDStretch beforehand was definitely an oversight on my part, and I've already discussed this with him. But once again, as I've said many times before: reblocks are cheap. And I will happily reblock her for 6 months if the same type of editing is seen again. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 18:31, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Coffee what I was trying to say yesterday, quite obviously unsuccessfully, is that the reason people went ape-shit is because of your actions. An entire week, more now, of time has been wasted when it looked like things might calm down. A reblock might not be as cheap as you think, and certainly the unblock has caused a whole lot of unnecessary drama. Can you see any of this? Victoria (tk) 18:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Victoria: I do see what you're laying down. And I definitely see where you're coming from, and I definitely didn't want to cause you or other editors around her more stress. But, now that she's been unblocked (and keep in mind I was a completely uninvolved admin in this situation before yesterday) I can't just re-block her when she's currently abiding by policy. So far she's been on the right track, but if she falls off of it she won't be welcome here for a while. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 18:43, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) Your rationale for extending Giano's block "Questioning users sanity is once again in violation of our policies" (from the block log at 00:13), was based on this comment from Giano: "can we just have the example (diff) of this dreadful transgression. Purely for the amusement of our more sane editors". Right or wrong? You haven't defended that action, so don't try to deflect. Explain how the removal talk page access and doubling of the block in response to Giano's request is anything other than plain wrong. To top that off with the incredible arrogance to think you are above the will of the community is astonishing. --RexxS (talk) 18:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
    • I didn't extend his block for him requesting that diff (which he linked to himself, by the way, before his block was extended), I extended his block for him questioning another users sanity. Which was once again deliberately on the line of NPA. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 18:39, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
      • Which other user's sanity did he question? Don't you understand what "personal" means in "personal attack"? for the amusement of our more sane editors isn't a personal attack; and you're just trying to justify your impetuous response to being questioned. We need better judgement from those we trust to block others. --RexxS (talk) 18:44, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
        • That was clearly directed at me. But before I answer any further questions, let me pose one to you. What exactly is your affiliation with Giano? Coffee // have a cup // beans // 18:50, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
          • Sorry, you extended someone's block for being uncivil towards the blocking admin - and you were the blocking admin? I have no affiliation with Giano. You should resign the tools. Hipocrite (talk) 22:58, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
          • You can stop trying to deflect by making it about somebody else. It's not my actions under review here, so if you've got any complaints about me, let's hear them in a thread dedicated to that. Now, if you believed that Giano's comment was aimed at you, surely that makes you the worst possible judge of extending sanctions against him? We have the INVOLVED policy precisely because admins enjoy an unfair advantage over ordinary editors in disputes. The moment you took his "more sane editors" comment as a slight at you, you should have backed away and sought uninvolved advice. That you failed to do so, and don't even seem to realise where you went wrong, is compelling support for my proposal to keep you away from the block button until you've improved your judgement. --RexxS (talk) 19:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
            • Your failure to answer my question is plenty telling of where your personal bias lies here. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 19:05, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
              • As you insist, I have no "affiliation" with Giano whatsoever, other than that we both live in the UK. I've met most of the active UK Wikimedians at one time or another, but I've never met Giano. Last week, I tidied the references on an article that he edits, but otherwise I can't remember the last time we edited the same article. Now that your smear on me is exposed for what it was, how about you answer the questions I've asked you? --RexxS (talk) 19:17, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Coffee, it is impossible to take your justifications at face value. You block two members on one side of a dispute, and unblock another. That starts off making you look bad. You blocked both of those people based on rationales that were at best weak, and at worst, completely bogus. Your warning to Giano is not a solid grounds for anything; it was on your talkpage, not theirs, and it was not worded in such a manner as to make it an unmistakeable warning. Your removal of Giano's talkpage access was undeniably bogus; not only was Giano not questioning anyone's sanity, but it was one comment, and blocked users are generally given some room to vent. Giano certainly had not overstepped that mark. Your inability to justify the block to Giano directly shows how weak your grounds were. And to top it off, you've threatened to disregard any community sanctions placed upon you. I had rejected any notion of you being desysopped before as being a bit of an overreaction... but I'm not seeing how you having the bit is anything other than a massive negative right now. If I had made such a big series of errors, I'd be giving up the bit voluntarily in your position. The one thing you did right was semi-protecting Giano's page against the troll, but you probably should've cited "IP-based trolling" rather than sockpuppetry. That being said, it's not really your fault that this one action was misinterpreted. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
    • Lukeno94: In my defense, I had no idea RO was affiliated with Giano when I made that unblock. It wasn't a deliberate move on my part. I was merely unblocking her based solely on the merits of her words to not be disruptive again. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 19:03, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
      • Furthermore, my block of Eric was more than well founded, as it was met with overwhelming support by the admins at AE. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 19:09, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
You and most other admins apparently still think it was an admirable well-thought out decision, yet you're unwilling to note that a massive amount of trouble has resulted from the course of your action which has distracted decent editors here from concentrating on articles here. What possible benefit did your action bring about to the encyclopedia? Any decision on wikipedia which results in mass time wasting and disruption discussing things which are not constructive to building wikipedia is a problem. Wikipedia would really be better off without administrators who take rash actions in response to minor comments or actions. It could simply be ignored and modified. But it's not good enough. The sanctimonious lecture and block always has to come first every time. You can't see how damaging this repeat cycle really is. Have some sense. Administrators know the reaction they're going to get from blocking Eric/Giano before they do so, and it's disruptive, more disruptive than anything either of them could say to somebody initially. There are ways to try to improve interaction with editors on here and to avoid this heavy handed sort of thing which does nothing but divide people and escalate the issue multiple times. Blocks of this kind do nothing but create ill feeling and trouble. They can be completely avoided through some rational thought to provide a solution.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:19, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Are you kidding me? The reason for this incredibly long thread is your inability to read a log entry, and yet you have the gall to claim Coffee's block is the problem? You kicked this brouhaha off, not him. And your proposed alternative is...well, nobody's allowed to block Giano or Eric, because if they do you'll complain and cause a fuss and that means they've caused the fuss and why won't everyone just leave Eric and Giano alone? That's an utterly ridiculous position to take, and if you genuinely believe that the solution to "Eric and Giano behave incredibly inappropriately because it's impossible to block them without causing drama" is "stop blocking them, it causes drama" you need to look up how action/reaction cycles work. Ironholds (talk) 21:31, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
No it isn't, it would have taken place anyway, just look at the talk pages. There is a very real problem here, and it was well under swing before I noticed what was going on Ironholds. I could ignore it, but this blocking and unblocking cycle keeps going on and on and each time a massive amount of time is wasted, regardless of whether I comment or not. You obviously think you're an intelligent chap Ironholds, so tell me, do you really think blocking Eric or Giano for a few hours really solves the real issue on here? Do you think blocking Eric for a few days is of benefit to the website or actually more damaging to wikipedia in the short term? Obviously some reform of the admin system and change in approach to this sort of thing is needed on here. Blocks of this kind really don't work and create the largest part of the problem because of the backlash and division of opinion, whether you think Eric and Giano are rude and inappropriate or not. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:19, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
No, I don't! I think both of them need to be blocked indefinitely. Would you like to propose it, if you're so keen to get this resolved? Or do you simply not see their behaviour as a problem? Ironholds (talk) 22:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I do think that Eric could avoid territory at times where there's more chance of him being blocked, yes. To avoid the backlash and timewasting which follows if for no other reason. But I see whatever they say usually as a much lesser problem than the reaction to it yes, the blocking and the aftermath. I think a lot could simply be ignored or modified by an administrator and things done more quietly. This repeat cycle of blocking and unblocking really doesn't work in the long term and is an embarrassment to the wiki system. We should all know by now that issuing short blocks to Eric and Giano is going to cause more trouble than its worth, so that's why I question why somebody like Coffee does it. I'm essentially a no bullshit kind of guy and have a pretty low level of tolerance, and I think we really need to either full accept things and ignore/modify them or completely don't accept them. If we completely don't accept them then anybody who can't edit without getting into regular conflicts will have to go, not only Eric and Giano, but myself, Cassianto, SchroCat, Gerda, most of the regulars here will have to go. Would that be practical in terms of wiki contributing? Nope. Would most of us content contributors like being indefinitely banned? Nope? So in that case there needs to be a limit on what one can do or say in a given period which is not disputable, and something which is enforced equally. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:53, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Rather than questioning why Coffee would block Giano, perhaps you should question why a block of Giano causes so much backlash. (Hint: in this case, you played a big role in starting this drama.) Should we just give Eric and Giano free reign to do and say whatever they please without consequence, because any attempt to sanction them causes drama? Rather than taking exception to the reaction to Giano's conduct, maybe you should be more concerned with Giano's amateurish and arrogrant attitude and demeanor toward anyone who dares to disagree with him. It's nice that he's a phenomenal content creator with a lot of friends, but that shouldn't be a get-out-of-jail-free card. Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 23:02, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Blofeld's list of names are members of what I call the "clique of malcontents", who hate admins and would love to put the admin in question into their trophy case. And when any one of them goes too far and gets blocked, the others storm the ANI Bastille and demand the release of the prisoner. And the answer is, Yes, they should be allowed to do whatever they want without fear of rebuke. That's an unwritten policy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:51, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Given that I can think of at least a dozen administrators on here who I either consider friends or I'm on good terms with, I think that's a rather generalized statement to make Baseball bugs. I rarely hate on people. I'm sure the others would thoroughly resent being called "the clique of malcontents". But I do see massive problems in the way admins function around regular content contributors and in cases like this I think they're a bigger problem than their worth. I think we should be continually doing a trial and error in the way that things are run to see which system is most effective and evolving. Yet there's none of this, which is why the same silliness and decadence still exists in the running of the site as years back as Lara identified. It's embarrassing that this is allowed to continue, and I'm sure many of the administrators I'm on good terms would at least acknowledge some sort of reform is needed to put a stop to it, even if they might not admit it. There is no point in issuing blocks of this kind, they do nothing but worsen the problem and time wasting. Stripping Coffee of his rights would only solve a very small part of the problem and this will continue whatever becomes of it. He's not the root cause. The answer is really a major reform in the way things are dealt with to make them evenly enforced and non disputable.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:51, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Indeed. I don't really see a problem with that. Lets be clear, here; what we are now discussing is not Coffee's block. What we are discussing if a fundamental moral divide between the two loudest groups of Wikipedians, the divide centring on whether you're the sort of person who thing a sufficient number of contributions justifies any behaviour, or whether you're the sort of person who thinks that's a load of hooey. I proudly count myself a member of the second group, and without an actual decision by the community or ArbCom as to which direction things are going in, I think this will continue to fester - as you point out, even if Giano or Eric go (and to reiterate: they should go. Far away, until they demonstrate they can actually admit any kind of fallibility) the underlying question isn't answered. Unfortunately, so far the community has demonstrated itself to be fairly schizoid on the problem and ArbCom - which exists for precisely these situations - has demonstrated itself to be incredibly cowardly, so lord knows what the outcome is going to be in the end. Ironholds (talk) 22:59, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Don't worry about a bunch of short blocks for Eric, the arbcom sanctions describe a very clear escalation in block duration to be followed. Chillum 22:56, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • That's a reasonable explanation, although I would still voice my opinion that you should've looked at the underlying issues with regards to the initial dispute - and probably consulted the blocking admin for their opinion. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I, looking back, now completely agree with that. Hindsight is always 20/20... This is why I've stated multiple times that I'll re-block RO for 6 months if she is disruptive in any way at all in the future. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 19:11, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Coffee, I understand your predicament now that you've unblocked her. My urgent suggestion is that you bring yourself up to date on all the controversy and bad blood she has caused up to now and the megabytes (or whatever they are) of discussion related to her, even before your quick unblock. Example: her posting on pages such as Casliber, Eric Corbett and many others over the "serial comma" issue, her seeking ds sanctions against Eric Corbett just days after Lightbreather succeed in hers, her harassment of Victoriaearle, forbidding her even to post on an article talk page Rationaloberver was working on, her personal attacks against Eric Corbett on her own talk page, her distructive comments on Talk:Saint Francis Receiving the Stigmata (van Eyck) (by Victoriaearle and Ceoil), resulting in Ceoil being brought to ANI. (Samples only) Please, please pay attention to this user, and if this does recur in the weeks and months ahead, ensure you will quickly block. EChastain (talk) 20:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - is nobody going to comment/take action on the points raised by myself, Victoriaearle and EChastain concerning the unblock of Rationalobserver without discussion and the points raised about the editor's subsequent comment in this AN/I thread? SagaciousPhil - Chat 21:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Reading this thread is making me sick and I have a migraine already!!! It's not f*ing about Giano and Eric. All you guys can have your little bar-room brawl but you've overlooked what caused this particular problem. Has nothing to do with content or not-content editors or women or men. Anyway, I give up on this place. Haven't a clue where to put this, but putting it under the other unanswered post. You all create your own cycles of drama without looking beyond, which is a shame. Victoria (tk) 23:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Giano's misconduct[edit]

  • Those diffs show only that you cannot cope with having your pompous pride pricked. Giano (talk) 17:59, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Calling another editor pompous is exactly the sort of incivility that you have received countless warnings for. If you were anyone else it would not be tolerated. Chillum 18:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Agree with Chillum they primarily show Giano's continuing in his long-demonstrated habit habit of showing absolutely no capacity for self-control. John Carter (talk) 18:14, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • You all need to learn to read diffs carefully and Coffee did not have a clear understanding of the situation. Giano's remark (admittedly not the best wording) was made after someone else got accused of socking on Coffee's page. There's a long and complicated sequence of events that needs to be clearly understood. I'm not known for going to an unknown user's page and asking for clarification about a block/unblock, nor do I post to drama boards. That I think it's necessary to do so shows that this is a situation that was terribly mishandled. I knew there would be drama. And now we have it. Better would have been to leave Ddstretch's block in place. Victoria (tk) 17:46, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Coffee, the proposal above is for you to put aside the block button for a while, not that you should put aside all the other stuff. Some have mentioned desysopping, but I don't see enough evidence here to justify that, and neither do I see much support for it. I do see significant support for you having a holiday from blocking. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Considering the CSD backlog contains a lot of editors who need to be blocked for advertising on our site/vandalism, that seems like a request that will do nothing but put more work on my fellow admins. It's not that I have some strange power hungry lust for the ability to block people, it's that I find it a very necessary tool in my toolkit. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 17:57, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree with Victoria, which is why I mentioned the unblock above - I also generally avoid all these drama boards as much as possible. I am still not seeing any explanation from Coffee as to why no discussion with the blocking admin took place? SagaciousPhil - Chat 18:00, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • It was due to a slight failure on my part... but, as I've said repeatedly: re-blocks are cheap. If she continues to edit the way she was before, I'll happily block her for 6 months (that is if the community doesn't decide to prevent me from blocking *sigh*). Coffee // have a cup // beans // 18:08, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
See, it's exactly that I have a problem with Coffee. You profess that "I'll happily block her". You really shouldn't be feeling happy about blocking people. You appear to enjoy this sort of culture where people get blocked for the slightest thing and it has to stop.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Not happy as in "yay I get to block someone", but happily as in "I will have no problem with doing so". So perhaps the wrong wording, but my point is that I will take care of it without any reservations as she has promised to abide by our policies, and if she doesn't she deserves a very long block. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 18:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Dr. Blofeld, perhaps better example (it occurred after Giano challenged if Coffee would block him on the same basis he blocked Eric): "User:Giano: I have no idea who you are, but if you make a comment like that again I will gladly fulfill your request. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 21:32, 27 February 2015 (UTC)" [18]. (The "gladly" is unnecessary and unprofessional and baiting of course, revealing an attitude problem unbecoming of admin - the need to prove one-upmanship by flexing the blocking-bat muscle [but that happens a lot on WP, is an inherent corruption you get with an independently acting admins system {making SPECIFICO's suggestion of a no-admin environment both interesting and logical enough to be worth considering since would immediately eradicate said ills if implemented; the holes that might be caused could be analyzed how to mitigate or plug - at least a better idea than the scoffing bottom-of-pyrimid insults SPECIFICO received that come from close mindedness and tenacity to hold on to a failed system.}]) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 03:02, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • If Giano and others talked about Black people, or God forbid Jewish people, in the same manner as they do 'wommin', they would be indeffed. It is absolutely unacceptable behaviour to continue to direct comments towards females in the manner that Giano and others have been. Not that I support the group in question, as I think there have been many mistakes made there. But the derogatory manner that females and feminists are being addressed is completely unacceptable. Dave Dial (talk) 18:23, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Dave Dial, I user the term "wimmin" to distinguish this very small trouble making group from the thousands of amazing women editors we have here. what would you prefer - 'Les Kaffeeklatsches'? That sounds a lot less patronizing doesn't it? Giano (talk) 18:38, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
It matters not how big or small the group you're referring to is; you're not allowed to talk about groups of people on this site in a deliberately derogatory and inflammatory manner. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 18:53, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
That principle, which you have just coined from thin air, will come as very bad news to some people if it is enforced uniformly. Carrite (talk) 19:23, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I did no such thing. See WP:WIAPA. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 19:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Exactly which part of that link do you feel applies to your innovative expansion of longstanding consensus, "These examples are not exhaustive."??? Carrite (talk) 19:38, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
"Racial, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, national, sexual, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor, or against a group of contributors." Coffee // have a cup // beans // 20:14, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a lot of insight here. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 18:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Comment Here was the one that shocked me the most:
Ah coffee, you may be able to help: I remember once when I was a boy at school, clandestinely watching a totally shocking film where nuns masturbated while a handsome priest was burn at the stake. I doubt Eric is very handsome, but tonight I am minded of that film...[19]
Can you imagine the outrage that would rain down upon my head if I said of the behavior of any man on this project, "I am minded of a film I saw where priests masturbated while a pretty nun burned at the stake"? Or "I am minded of a film where I saw white people masturbate while a black person was lynched"? Nobody saw anything offensive in Giano comparing someone whom he considers a "militant" woman to nuns masturbating while a priest burns? Lightbreather (talk) 19:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I might add, I'm not a Catholic, but I am a Christian, and I also found the comment offensive on that level. Lightbreather (talk) 19:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm sure if someone that agrees with corbett said the sky was blue you'd say that was offensive Lightbreather. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:12, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Uh, LB, it's a reference to The Devils so if you find it offensive you may want to blame Ken Russell. Capeo (talk) 05:51, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
This isn't about you two, and it's not about Giano and Eric, either. It's about 2 bad blocks, a bad unblock and a declined unblock request regarding a block Coffee him-/herself had imposed. And now, above, #Davewild has pointed to Coffee's closure of 3 AFDs that were overturned by deletion review in the last few days. Characterising this as a gender gap vs. Eric's mates dispute sidelines all the editors above, including me, who are not involved in that issue or aligned with either side. There is a problem with Coffee's judgement. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 19:21, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Anthonyhcole: I vacated those AFD closes after I realized I had remembered the BLPDEL policy wrong, and had misinterpreted the current version... a few years back it was commonplace to see no consensus default to delete closes on AFDs, and I was following what I thought to still be an established procedure. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 19:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm glad to hear that. In that case I see no justification for a full desysop, but still support a holiday from the block button (but am waiting for your responses to Jehochman's propositions below.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 19:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't agree with AHC very often about much of anything, but he is exactly right here. Carrite (talk) 19:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
No, this isn't about Giano and Eric. And it's not about the gender gap. And if you want to debate Coffee's judgement, fine. What I want to know is, are the men and women who are participating in this discussion OK with Giano comparing Rationalobserver, or any other editor - man or woman - for that matter, to someone who would masturbate while they watched someone else burn? No-one sees that as sanctionable behavior? Lightbreather (talk) 20:14, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Block Giano[edit]

Should Giano be blocked per WP:WIAPA:

Racial, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, national, sexual, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed AGAINST ANOTHER CONTRIBUTOR, OR AGAINST A GROUP OF CONTRIBUTORS. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual orientation, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse.

Three personal attacks:

  1. Pot stirring? well Rationalobserver you and the militant and trouble making wimmin of this project are the ones to recognize that. I applaud you. Why not block me too Coffee?[20]
  2. Ah coffee, you may be able to help: I remember once when I was a boy at school, clandestinely watching a totally shocking film where nuns masturbated while a handsome priest was burn at the stake. I doubt Eric is very handsome, but tonight I am minded of that film.[21]
  3. ...it's nothing to do with women editors as a whole - the whole world knows that - they are as rational as the rest of mankind; it's to do with a small group of women who have formed a group, sucked in a few gullables ... and are now playing the sexist card for their own peculiar ends.[22]
  • Support - As proposer. --Lightbreather (talk) 02:38, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
    Giano was already blocked. Do you mean a ban?--MONGO 02:47, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Wasn't the block lifted? I'll support whatever is appropriate for that kind of sustained attack, but it surely should be more than a few hours. Lightbreather (talk) 02:52, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Neutral on a Giano block frankly, I think Giano does deserve a timeout. However, Lightbreather is not the right person to make this proposal and it just reeks of spiteful vindictiveness. I'm not impressed and Support a block on Lightbreather for creating further disruption. Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 02:57, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
    • Don't count my vote then. Someone needed to step up, and no-one else has stepped up. I don't think that's a good reason to block me, but I'll take it if it's the price to pay. Lightbreather (talk) 03:08, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
      • I agree that some people need to step up and demand that Giano be held accountable for his actions, regardless of how many GAs and FAs he has contributed. However, you are heavily involved in this fiasco and it looks very unseemly for you to be the one proposing sanctions against Giano. It appears that you have an axe to grind, or else that you are trying to get an opponent silenced. Either way, it doesn't help the encyclopedia. Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 03:12, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
        • OK. You make the proposal, and I'll strike my proposal and my vote. Lightbreather (talk) 03:17, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
          • I don't think you should vote regardless of who makes the proposal, just as I wouldn't recommend that Giano participate if someone opened a thread proposing that you be blocked. Your opinion is already clear anyway and you aren't likely to sway the discussion. You have very little to gain here. Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 03:21, 1 March 2015 (UTC) I guess I should have read your comment more thoroughly. Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 03:22, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • In the interests of not escalating I think we should not block Giano for what has happened between the unblock and now, regardless of how much it is justified. It would be enough that the community does not try to behead the next person who does decide Giano has earned a block. Chillum 03:24, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Lightbreather, I need no reminders that you dislike Giano. Blocking Giano has been tried many times in the past and always does more harm than good. If you notice, Giano has already slowed his participation in this thread, and we should try to let the thread conclude, rather than extending it, and spreading more bad will. Jehochman Talk 13:30, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
    • I need no reminders that you dislike Giano. This is untrue. Prior to this discussion, I was barely aware of him. (Kind of like before the whole "cunt" debate last year, except then I was completely unaware of EC.) That's much more important than whether or not I like or dislike him, or whether anyone likes or dislikes him. I get it now. He is one of the golden boys. One of the untouchables. (Where is that essay?) One of the valued content contributors who is above the WP civility rules, and therefore, anyone who challenges their civility is the one who faces sanction. I get it that there's this double standard on Wikipedia. If you said I disliked that, I would not disagree with you.
But I do want to say this one more time, for those who are covering their eyes and putting their fingers in their ears: This valued content contributor compared a a group of women editors to nuns who masturbate while a priest burns. (Not just a priest, but a handsome priest - which gives you some idea of how these guys imagine themselves.) Lightbreather (talk) 13:46, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • @Lightbreather: Why on God's green earth do you feel the need to constantly bring "gender" into every single conversation? Give it a rest. The constant "gender thumping" is doing more harm than good. Ain't nobody here that can magically see through their monitor to verify who is who. Yes, women should be treated every bit as equally as men. You are doing more harm than good to your "cause" by deliberately trying to segregate people by gender. If you truly want to prove some sort of "women can" agenda - then go write positive articles. There are a lot of women on wiki who are embarrassed by your crusade. The whole "eggshells with hammers" crap that you're trying to sell is bullshit. Your whole "hear me roar" thing is so 1970s. If your agenda is to disrupt wikipedia, then you're doing a good job. If your agenda is to show us that women can do anything a man can do, then you need to change your approach. — Ched :  ?  13:57, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
    • If you actually study the history of who brings up gender in these discussions, you'll find it's men at least as often - if not more often - than I. The drama of recent days is a good example.
In the IBAN discussion I started a few days ago, Eric Corbett jumped in and made the comment, "Isn't it about time that these militant feminists were dealt with once and for all?" (18:46, 26 February 2015) Gender had not been brought into the discussion before that. (And the discussion wasn't about him. Please scroll down.) Just prior to his comment, Rationalobserver had started a discussion on EC's talk page that turned rather nasty. Here is the revision of that page from two minutes before EC made his "militant feminist" comment here at ANI: [23]. At that point, RO hadn't been involved in the discussion for over 18 hours, and - without defending her behavior in that discussion - she hadn't brought gender into that one either. The first person to bring gender into it was EC when he said, "That kind of behaviour clearly wasn't a one-off, but I suppose she gets away with because she claims to be a female."[24]
However, EC and G. either think everything I and some other women do is about gender, or they want others to think that. I bring up gender when it's appropriate, and I'd appreciate it if you and others stop buying into this notion that we're "militant." Do you honestly defend comparing us to nuns who masturbate while a priest burns? How would you like it if I compared Eric and his entourage to priests who masturbate while nuns burn? Or to white people who masturbate while a black person burns? If I said those things and men or white editors complained, would they be the ones to label as "militant"? Should they be expected not to complain about it? Lightbreather (talk) 14:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Wow, on second reading, there is a lot of offensive stuff in your comment. Would you mind striking some? (Also, in addition to the "militant feminist" nonsense, please don't swallow the "a lot of women are embarrassed" propaganda, either. There are some who are - notably, especially, some of EC's women defenders. There are a lot of women editors (though not nearly as many as men editors); there are some women editors who agree with me, and there are some who disagree.) Lightbreather (talk) 14:42, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
find it's men at least as often - if not more often - than I. What an absurd statement: if one assumes at least half of active editors are men (most estimates are significantly higher of course), that's saying that 61296.5 male editors combined bring up gender more often than 1 editor, and that's supposed to mean something? NE Ent 15:03, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
You didn't understand what I meant? OK. In Wikipedia talk page discussions where gender is made an issue, especially one where someone brings up feminism... Lightbreather (talk) 15:08, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Besides, I wrote, "If you actually study the history of who brings up gender in these discussions, you'll find it's men at least as often - if not more often - than I." I didn't write "All men bring up gender in discussions." Is this the part where the baiting starts? I'm taking this page off my watchlist now. Buh-bye. Lightbreather (talk) 15:12, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm not striking a damned thing. Quite frankly, I'm looking at a long term block for disruptive editing. — Ched :  ?  16:01, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Oppose - I have never heard such a load of old bollocks in all my life. Do you people have nothing other to do than smear the name of one of our best editors? Lightbreather should have been banned a long time ago; Rationalobserver, also. Coffee, I have no idea who you are, but your block was ill-thought out and you should be brought to task for being too block-happy. It smacks of someone trying to impress Jimbo and his heard of sheep who roam Eric's contributions waiting for him to fart out of place. CassiantoTalk 16:13, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Before considering arbitration[edit]

I recently brought an arbitration case about an admin who was involved in controversial actions. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Wifione. I'm considering whether to bring a case about this matter, and I'm pretty sure I could get the case accepted already, but I think it might not be necessary. Here are my concerns, that Coffee hopefully will address:

  1. An admin should never decline an unblock request related to their own block, except in some sort of very exceptional circumstance such as a user who obviously can't be unblocked, such as somebody who's been banned by ArbCom or the Community. Example: [25]
  2. Admins should not create the appearance of partisanship, such as by unblocking one disputant, and blocking two disputants on the other side. (If such action is necessary, deal with one users, and then get help from other admins.)
  3. Blocked users are allowed to vent on their talk pages. If they make generic insults against the blocking admin, these should generally be ignored, but if further action is required it should generally be taken by some other admin, not the one who was targeted and could appear to be acting out of anger and a desire for retaliation.
  4. User talk page access is not removed, except for severe violations. There was no such exceptional circumstance in this case.
  5. Blocking admins are required to explain the reason for a block, and best practice is to supply diffs in the block message if the blocking reason is not obvious. In this case, Coffee failed to provide diffs, and failed to explain to Giano the specific reason for the block, even when Giano challenged the block as unjustifiable.
  6. Don't use profanity when performing administrative actions or explaining them.[26][27]

Coffee, I'd like to see whether you acknowledge these issues and if you can endeavor to do a better job going forward. I request that all others give Coffee a chance to reply, and please dial down the heat. Everybody makes an occasional mistake. I want to give Coffee a chance to try to set things right. Jehochman Talk 19:16, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Jehochman: Before I fully reply to that rather reasonable request... what block are we referring to in part 1? (I clearly haven't been able to read this entire discussion yet.) Coffee // have a cup // beans // 19:19, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I see above suggestions that you declined unblock requests for blocks that you have made. Please scan the thread and answer those. Your answer might be "I didn't do that" or you might have a reason for having done that, or you might say "oops, I won't do that again." I will reread the thread too and see if I can give more specific diffs. Jehochman Talk 19:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Jehochman, you brought that Wifione case to ArbCom too early. Please don't make the same mistake this time. A great many of your fellow editors are discussing a community-imposed sanction above. LET THAT PLAY OUT. That said, I think Coffee could change a lot of minds with his/her responses to your above propositions. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 19:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Let's not go off topic. Case was accepted and resolved. I'm not going to bring this one unless community discussion fails to resolve it. Agree, Coffee can help resolve things. Jehochman Talk 19:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I am going to call bullshit with the people whining about Coffee using bullshit. I've stated as much as long as it isn't a you are a mother fucker, fucker or specific thing like that. I do not support censoring language and that includes admin. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:34, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I would like to hear from Coffee. You are not an admin, so you are welcome to swear, at least until you get blocked. Admins should not swear at ordinary users, when acting in admin capacity. Jehochman Talk 19:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Enlighten us on the admin code, maybe show us the secret handshake. Bullshit. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:39, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
As a former admin, I have to agree with Jehochman here. Particularly when admins are specifically engaged in specifically admin functions, or, basically, acting for the community and/or foundation, they are expected to conduct themselves in a way which would be considered acceptable under those conditions. Most businesses don't let the receptionist swear at some of the callers or visitors (although, having done that work for a while years ago, I know the urge can sometimes be very, very strong), but there is a basic standard of professional decorum to maintain, particularly when individuals are acting in official capacities. Now, having said that, I remember seeing some extreme cases like when individuals were facing extreme duress when answering the phone, for instance, like, oh, flooding, the building burning down, that sort of thing, where once in a while the receptionist lost his or her cool, and most businesses wouldn't necessarily make a big deal of those instances. I don't think we should be any different. And, yes, once in a while, even those businesses will let an occasional violation slip in. I'm not myself going to say exactly where I would place this one, because I'm not sure what I would have done in this matter myself. John Carter (talk) 20:09, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
@John Carter: May I ask what was the worst profanity you ever used in your admin capacity? ―Mandruss  20:21, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I rarely did anything as an admin but edit protected templates, which at the time was a specifically admin function, so I'm probably not the best person to ask. That's one of the reasons I withheld an opinion above. John Carter (talk) 20:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
There are many admins who never use profanity, regardless of the situation. I asked you because you said you weren't sure what you would have done, implying that you might have used profanity in that situation. From my limited experience with you, I found that hard to believe. ―Mandruss  20:28, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Coffee's response[edit]

Jehochman:

  1. Well in this case it would be that I was definitely unaware that I did that... unless someone can provide me with a good diff. It's something I always try to avoid doing, unless the person is an absolute obvious vandal that is just attempting to disrupt the site through their request. (Further note, now that a diff has been provided: That was a case where I felt the user was definitely WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. In a case like that I only do it if I feel that any administrative review would have the same result. However, that was a partial misstep on my part, and it's not something that I do often or will do much of [if at all] in the future.)
  2. I definitely did not intend to create an appearance of partisanship when I made these blocks/unblocks. As I said above, when I unblocked RO, I did not realize she was affiliated with Giano. Eric's block was done at he behest of the admins at AE. Giano's block was done because he was violating NPA through his attacks on RO, it wasn't known by me that they had a long standing disagreement even then; I thought Giano was being disruptive purely because of Eric's block. But I would definitely not do something just to favor one side over the other in a debate, ever, whether in the past or future. I'll make sure the appearance doesn't happen again for sure.
  3. In hindsight I should have let another admin revoke the talk page access, but I was already at a rather thin patience level at that point. Not an excuse, but I'm letting you at least understand where that move came from (besides the fact that I found the comments, personally at least, to violate NPA). In the future I'll allow another admin to review issues like that.
  4. See the previous point. (with the exception of obvious vandals, where I may do the revoke myself)
  5. This was because I thought stating below the block notice where the violation had happened would be enough, I didn't see Giano's (albeit snarky) challenge of the block until 2 hours later (as he didn't ping me). He himself had of course already provided the diff by that point. In the future though I'll gladly provide the diffs in a case where someone is disputing the block (if I haven't already, and with the exception of obvious VOAs).
  6. This is something I generally avoid, but in rare cases I do let it slip out. I've been in the profession of helping get people killed for the last 6 years, and we tend to swear a lot, so I'd say it's fairly impressive that I don't swear more on this site... but I will try to do better at it since you've requested kindly.

I hope that explains things better. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 19:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I request that everybody just give this a few days to cool down, and then decide if you feel like further steps are needed. I for one am satisfied that this was an unfortunate sequence of misunderstandings. Do try to be more reserved with the block button going forward. Don't rush, in general, and take time to look through the history of things. Jehochman Talk 20:28, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for the advice, and for being understanding. I'd also like to note that I'd be willing to open an WP:Administrator review for myself (not recall), to get suggestions from the community at large on how to better myself here (as long as people aren't just going there to skewer me over a fire). I'm always trying to improve upon my former self, and am always open to suggestions. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 20:45, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm getting very tired of you making excuses for plausible but obviously problematical admins, Jehochman. In this caase, Coffee hasn't satisfied me that this was an unfortunate sequence of misunderstandings at all. I see serious competence and character problems staring me in the face. I've just got back from dropping a friend at the airport; it's 5:30 am and I'm hosting brunch, so I'm getting some sleep now, but will be back to address this in more detail. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I find arbitration to be a pain, and only use it when absolutely necessary. If you want to take Coffee to arbitration, by all means, you are welcome to file a request. I won't oppose the acceptance of a case, but your should keep in mind that other parties will get dragged in and the ArbCom often dishes out sanctions liberally. Bishonen often points out that I assume too much good faith. She's probably right. Jehochman Talk 21:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Coffee, I am not satisfied by your answer to No. 1, which is an issue I raised. Firstly, though, I want to point out to everyone here hollering about the Giano situation that I have not touched that issue. I brought an entirely valid example of a past poor admin decision (declining an unblock request on your own block where I saw no evidence to even validate the first block to begin with, because that editor had stopped disrupting days before and as soon as I pointed him/her towards policy), and I indicated above that I had brought it to your attention, so you most certainly were or should have been aware of it. I am concerned about how you can do something of that nature and then not even remember it. That you continue to justify it indicates to me that you haven't gone back and looked at all of the evidence, including my warnings and conversations with that user, where s/he had stopped disrupting, while you let the other user off for committing even worse disruption. Something was very off in your action there, and I shut up at the time because ... well, that's another story.

If there is not some resolution on that matter, either here on ANI or by you doing something voluntarily, then I support this matter escalating to the arbs. Sorry, but admins just can't behave this way. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:18, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia: Without going into length about my current medical health (and it was something I was hoping to avoid bringing up all together), I actually have severe memory issues at the moment. I still though stand by my statement that he was not here to do anything more than promote incel, which was already determined to be unfit for inclusion on this site. However, I do think in hindsight that it would have been better to allow another admin to review that unblock request, even if I think it would have ended up the same way. Purely because it would ease the concerns of esteemed editors like yourself. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 23:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • If you are really having memory problems, you should stand down until recovered. If your memory is confused and having issues, then you should not be acting as a judge and jury here. Furthermore putting yourself through needless this stress cannot be beneficial to your situation. Giano (talk) 09:24, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Purely because it would ease the concerns of esteemed editors like yourself. So, not because it was wrong, not because of blocking policy, but only so editors like me wouldn't be concerned? I had worked through explaining policy to that editor, and s/he stopped disrupting. You blocked an editor without cause: we don't know if s/he was here only to promote incel, but they backed off as soon as I explained things, and yet you let a more disruptive editor do worse. I'm sorry; it's not right, and I was shaking my head when I saw it.

I sincerely regret your current medical health, and that you feel you had to mention it, but now that you have, your comment gives additional rise to concern that perhaps you should not, at this time, have access to the tools. I hope you will be well, but I'd like to see you give up the tools. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:30, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

If you are not feeling well, just stop using admin access until you are back to normal. Easy solution, and I hope you get better as soon as can be hoped for. Jehochman Talk 23:32, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, it should be noted that this occurred a year ago; I'm not sure how Coffee's current health factors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I remain disturbed that Coffee still hasn't addressed the issue brought up above repeatedly by me, Victoriaearle, Sagaciousphil. You reversed a two week block for disruptive editing on multiple pages without consulting the blocking admin. If you hadn't done that, all of these issues discussed here at ANI today, including all the stuff about Giano (who I don't know) wouldn't have occurred. And I think it's a critical issue. How, in less than ten hours, could you determine that Rationalobserver's "word" was more reliable than the judgment of a fellow admin without discussion or apparently any attempt to look at her history. EChastain (talk) 23:44, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
    • I've addressed this repeatedly here EChastain, both above and below this comment. I even addressed it at my talk page with DDStress, the original blocking admin. Please feel free to read those discussions, but I'm not going to repeat myself. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 23:57, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
      • ok, I'll look around for it. I wish you'd pinged me; what I saw before wasn't satisfactory. Rationalobserver is back on the drama boards (above). How long will you give her to find something else to do? EChastain (talk) 00:31, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
        • Coffee, there's nothing on your talk re DDStress, that I can find. Using Find, I come up with nothing. Where is it? (There are some rather rude comments to me from Rationalobserver on your talk.) EChastain (talk) 00:39, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
          • Try searching for Ddstretch. Bishonen | talk 00:41, 1 March 2015 (UTC).
            • Bishonen Well, there's nothing on this page. On his talk there's just the very superficial response made previously by Coffee: "DDStretch: I truly hope there's no hard feelings here, I just moved forward in the same motion that I'm used to when I made this judgment. As she promised to not continue her disruptive behavior" - which I don't consider adequate. Shows no understanding of the situation and no indication the same thing won't happen again. EChastain (talk) 00:58, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

───────────────────────── @EChastain: If you had made any effort to find it instead of huffing and puffing demands you would have found this: User_talk:Coffee#Unblock_clarification_requested.

That is where Coffee discussed this matter with DDStretch. Unless DDStretch wants to call foul there is not much more to the matter. Chillum 01:05, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Chillum, that's the same old stuff from yesterday, just a large version of what I quoted above. "The unblock had nothing to do with her being a woman, or political correctness. I was simply going through WP:RFUB as usual, and happened across her unblock request which I treated as I do all unblock requests. This was in no way a judgment against Ddstretch's administrative judgment, merely an accepted unblock request based purely on its own merits. Like I said, if the behavior that got her blocked happens again I'll be the first to re-block. Re-blocks are cheap, as they say." He's just saying he unblocks all requests without looking into it further, and there's no point in discussing it with the blocking admin, as his own judgment overrides theirs. Everyone knows that DDStretch isn't going to call foul, because only through arbcom can an admin get desopped. So the community is helpless, without the huge effort of putting together an arbcom, since admins won't monitor each other. (The reblocks are cheap comment is particularly disgusting, cheap for him maybe, but not for the community who wants to build an encyclopaedia.) EChastain (talk) 03:02, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Are you reading the same thing as me? I see two adults discussing something and walking away satisfied. You seem to be out for a pound of flesh. There is exactly one person with standing to be upset about this unblock and that is DDStretch. Chillum 03:04, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Yep Chillum, that's what I am seeing too. I'm also seeing an editor very obsessed with the unblock of another editor, so much so that it is very unbecoming. Dave Dial (talk) 03:22, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Chillum, I'm reading the same thing but I see one admin defending his actions as normal and only worrying that there's no hard feelings, and the other admin unwilling to rock the boat. I've watched the disruption caused by Rationalobserver with horror for weeks if not longer, unbelieving that someone didn't put a stop to it. Have you looked at her history? I mean, really look? I've been persuaded now to Support dessop. EChastain (talk) 03:30, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
If you want someone to put a stop to it, why don't you propose a block/ban? Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 03:33, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Now you are assigning motives to DDStretch and that is really not your place. Also please pay attention, a vote on ANI cannot desysop someone. That has been said repeatedly already. Chillum 03:33, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
I had no desire to contribute to this, but I think it may be appropriate to make what I hope is my only comment, now. I carefully considered many things before blocking Rationalobserver. It seemed to me that a block was certainly justified, given her previous history, and poor behaviour, culminating in a set of insults on Eric Corbett's talk page that seemed designed to provoke. Eric Corbett replied politely, but I suspect the desired result of the provocation was realised when Eric Corbett made the later comments, elsewhere, for which an arbitration sanction was applied.
I was surprised that I wasn't consulted prior to Rationalobserver's unblock. However, we can all make mistakes, so I could not be entirely sure that it was not me partially at fault in applying such a long block of two weeks. I still think that it was correct, and that an even longer block could have been justified, given the previous pattern of bad behaviour and the reneging on previous assurances that she had learned her lesson and wouldn't do it again. If I had been consulted, my response would have been "Too soon". Her complete and incredible about-face within one day from protesting strongly that she had done nothing wrong (when she plainly had), and then the apologetic message that it was all a mistake, that she had done wrong and that it wouldn't happen again (in fact, very similar to a previous incident in her history a week or two before these events) was not credible. It was not helped by contributions from knowledgekid87 which were reinforcing of her bad behaviour that she had, in fact and in his opinion, done nothing wrong and that she was a victim of a bunch of people. I consider that knowledgekid87 will be changing his behaviour from now on, because his reassurances about his future behaviour were convincing to me, and I reversed the block I gave him later on for personal attacks he later made of other editors while still trying to tell Rationalobserver that she was a victim of others.
I would rather the block had not been successfully appealed as soon as it was, I would sooner have liked to have been consulted about the unblock rather than not. I am apprehensive that Rationalobserver will repeat her behaviour and return to the problematic behaviour, despite the promises and assurances she (quickly) made, because she has a previous history of doing this. I consider my later discussion with Coffee resolved the matter between ourselves. I am not standing up as some kind of admin-cabal against editors when I say the above, because I believe there is much wrong with the current admin system, so much so that I am often tempted to resign my admin position (as I did, once before). I strongly refute EChastain's allegation about my motives, and ask her to withdraw them.
With respect to Rationalobserver, I have even speculated to myself that if she quickly returned to the "drama boards" and showed signs of a return to problematic behaviour, after giving an assurance that she would not, whether a new block (obviously not applied by myself) could ever be justified on account of getting her recent block overturned on "false pretenses". May be that thought is unacceptable, though.  DDStretch  (talk) 04:36, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Ok. An afterthought and another message: Both of the blocks I made (Rationalobserver, Knowledgekid87) I thought could lead to me being dragged to this board because this is a contentious area where there are many people with entrenched positions on both sides. We (as admins) can all make mistakes, just like anyone else, and I am acutely aware of that when I use the tools. However, we should all be allowed to reform, and we should be allowed to demonstrate that we have reformed. That is why I believed Knowledgekid87 and unblocked him last night (my time). That is why I am apprehensive of Rationalobserver, because of previous reneging on assurances, and why I would have liked more time than 9 or so hours before a successful unblock was granted. But she should be allowed to show she has changed her ways, and reneging once is perhaps allowed. There is, however, the question of her other troublesome behaviour. Now that all this drama is unfolding, which I find distasteful in itself, because we should all be spending our time writing content, I think she will get much closer scrutiny than might otherwise happen. I think EChastain is now ascribing motives to me on little evidence, and I refute them anyway. This is sad, because it begins to devalue her previous comments, in my opinion, because I cannot now be sure how much of those may also have been similarly biased. Just be careful, and sometimes it pays to never speak what one thinks for the sake of a moment of glory or success at the risk of a massive amount of disruption and drama.  DDStretch  (talk) 05:11, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Coffee's response, for now, is sufficient. He's received strong, good feedback from Jehochman et. al.; at this point what matter is what he does in the future, not what words are said here and now. To clarify; per WP:EHP continuing to attempt to browbeat some specific mea culpa from him is neither necessary nor productive. NE Ent 12:38, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

The way things stand right now, I'll be taking this to ArCom to have Coffee's use of the block button restricted. I'm open to persuasion, though, and in no hurry. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:37, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

block of Eric Corbett[edit]

  • I will not be letting this drop. Now that it is universally acknowledged that Coffee's blocks are unsound, we need to address the matter of the blocking of Eric Corbett who remains blocked by Coffee. The block was encouraged and manipulated by the same small group of females (what are we allowed to call them now?) as engineered the block of me. Corbett now needs to be unblocked too. Giano (talk)
  • He was blocked per this AE request, with an overwhelming consensus by the uninvolved admins there (none of which were "manipulated by [a] group of females"). So that won't be happening. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 20:56, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
For reasons you failed to grasp. Stop bleating and trying to cover your inadequacies. Who is running this show - a small, group or vengeful editors with their own private space or the general editorship? Giano (talk) 20:59, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
That comment makes no sense whatsoever, and it still fails to present a valid rationale for unblocking someone who was found to violate their topic ban by six administrators at AE. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 21:05, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm a bit concerned by the Coffee's assertions ([28] is another) that consensus by the admins justified the block, as if the views contributed by non-admins in that discussion (there were a lot of them, that might or might not have supported the block) counted for nothing. It's also not clear to me that the block was supported by overwhelming consensus of the admins. Chillum, Kudpung, Coffee, and Harej called for a block. Thryduulf suggested a warning might be enough, Jbmurray called Eric's post "an ill-advised comment", JethroBT said there was a ban violation but didn't call for a specific remedy, and Black Kite (maybe involved) said there might have been a technical violation but put responsibility for the conflict on Lightbreather. Kudpung and Coffee specifically supported the block for the purpose of deterring future such problems from Eric, a strategy that's been ineffective enough times in the past that IMHO it calls their judgment in question about weighing in on these blocks. Coffee later disclaimed that justification (showing more sense) in the diff I gave above ("Even if I don't personally think that this block will have much of an effect on the way Eric behaves in the future...") and I found this distastefully patronizing. Eric's interaction style is obviously unsatisfactory at times, but I wouldn't pretend to understand what is going on in his mind enough to advise him as if I knew something better than he did. I have no view about Coffee's overall adminship but I think it would have been best if Coffee had stood back and let someone else do this particular block, if one was to be done. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 22:04, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • No. That is an AE block, and any admin reversing that should lose the bit immediately. Dave Dial (talk) 21:03, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • (e-c) While he has blocked as per AE, I regret to say that as someone who commented there that, as I said there, at least one of the admins who declared himself "uninvolved" might well be seen by others as being perhaps involved, at least in so far as his or her social/political predilections relate to the case, and that I think as per my own comments that there seemed to me to be a misinterpretation of a comment which seems to have used a known and generally recognized, even by academia, term used to describe certain specific interest groups. In short, I think the judgment of some of the admins involved in the discussion was itself flawed. However, considering it is only a three day block, and that Eric will be taking one of the three anyway, I think a better and more likely to be productive "demand" might be to go to ARCA and request clarification whether language which is generally used even in broadly neutral academic literature as descriptions of certain groups is among the language which Eric and others in such circumstances are prohibited from using. John Carter (talk) 21:05, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • John Carter, if you're referring to this block:[29], I believe the discussion was ongoing, a majority of admins didn't support the block, and Sandstein made a "super vote" and blocked. EChastain (talk) 21:46, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Well the blocking Admin is now firmly branded as a cowboy, so I think we can review it. Giano (talk) 21:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Two things: 1. That's not remotely true, and once again that is not a valid rationale for unblocking someone who was found to have violated their topic ban. 2. Cows get branded. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 21:11, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • It is completely true. You are an unsafe pair of hands and a cowboy. Your position is untenable. Giano (talk) 21:15, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • No, I just happen to live in Texas right now. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 21:19, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I thought you probably lived somewhere like that. Giano (talk) 21:33, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Clever response. Coffee // have a cup // beans // 21:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
So Coffee, have you served in the military? Jehochman Talk 21:45, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Jehochman: I'm currently in it, as a Non-Commissioned Officer. Coffee</