Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive880

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Legal threats at Quora[edit]

User indeffed; sock put back in the drawer (all by JodyB). (non-admin closure) Erpert blah, blah, blah... 00:45, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Erantan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), a new account that appears to have edited as (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), is making legal and other threats against User:Steven Walling to file securities fraud complaints,[1], ruin Steven's career[2] regarding weird claims about collusion between Wikimedia and Quora to manipulate stock prices or some other crazy talk.[3] For what it's worth, they think I'm an alter ego of Steven Walling. I'm going to remove my warnings and notice to this user for WP:DFTT / DFTK reasons. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:02, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Blocked indef for making legal threats. Any administrator is free to remove or change the block without further consult with me. JodyB talk 20:12, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Just idle curiosity, but why would they want to do that, JodyB? Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 20:40, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
You mean why would the person make these threats? Steven Walling • talk 21:37, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
@User:Steven Walling, no I just wondered why anyone would want to change the block after legal threats made. Thanks though! (BTW you don't seem too worried that your career is on the line....! lol)Fortuna

Imperatrix Mundi 22:16, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah avoiding COI controversy is why I haven't edited the Quora article at all since I was hired there. Apparently that wasn't enough for this person. Steven Walling • talk 22:58, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Now socking. --NeilN talk to me 21:18, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Sock blocked, article semi'd. --NeilN talk to me 21:24, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

@User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi Because he could retract his statement and make changes that allow him to return. It just prevents someone from waiting around if I am offline. JodyB talk 22:52, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mass changes to Jewish educational Categories tonight[edit]

Please see [4]. This user, who has just explained at his user talk page that s/he doesn't know what a rabbinic seminary is, has made mass changes tonight to a host of Jewish religious education Categories, with no discussion and no edit summaries. He or she has also deliberately emptied Categories in order to nominate them for speedy deletion for being empty. I have attempted to engage, but will now pull back as a) I don't wish to use my admin tools when I've disagreed with another user and b) I need to go to bed. I'd love to think that they're a good faith editor, contributing destructively, but honestly, the effects are so wide-ranging effects they may as well be a vandal. --Dweller (talk) 21:34, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

2015 Checkuser and Oversight appointments: Candidates appointed[edit]

Following community consultation and voting. the Arbitration Committee is pleased to appoint the following users to the Functionary team.

  • The following users are appointed as Oversighters:

The Committee would like to thank the community and all the candidates for bringing this process to a successful conclusion.

For the Arbitration Committee;

Courcelles (talk) 03:05, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Discuss this


*Block applied (though now expired), along with page protection thanks to Materialscientist and Ged UK, and frankly I have better things to do than go back-and-forth all day with someone trying and failing to have multiple personality disorder through multiple IPV6 socks. Nate (chatter) 02:07, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Admins, take note; refactoring of this case continues by the IP; I guess they don't realize every new refactoring builds the sock history. Nate (chatter) 13:03, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • And now fully resolved; Elockid gave a 6m rangeblock to the IPV6 range used. Nate (chatter) 14:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can I have a block on this obvious TheREALCableGuy (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) sock, please? They have been persistently harassing me on my talk page for the last hour claiming they aren't an account of TRCG which I reverted sock contribs of and now just sent password resets for here and my Instagram account in an attempt to 'hack' me. Nate (chatter) 04:43, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not TheREALCableGuy, I've never used that account name before and never created any accounts here! Plus what makes you think I'm gonna hack you. Stop telling lies about him and me now! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C5E4:A50:A1F7:C870:8659:603F (talk) 12:06, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes, because you need to hop new IP's when the one mentioned above is blocked for 12 hours...right. Anyways...was blocked for twelve hours, as seen above, a new IPV6 responded this way, and this can probably be closed since the worst issue, their spamming of my talk page, is done for a couple days at least thanks to RFP. Nate (chatter) 16:14, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I am not, I'm not him. I'm not TheREALCableGuy, I'm just a fan of him who misses him! You're delusional. What is wrong with you? And that IP was not spamming you, he/she was telling you off! 2602:306:C5E4:A50:24C4:3350:69E0:D300 (talk) 18:25, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Legal Threat at Paris Violence[edit]

*Block applied. Amortias (T)(C) 17:34, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
  • User has clarified that they didn't intend to make any legal threat against Wikipedia. They were referring to the accusations mentioned in the article. The article content they commented on was indeed in clear violation of BLP and has been removed. The user has been unblocked by me. While this incident was an understandable miscommunication and no one's at fault, let's all remember that even if someone does make a legal threat, they still may have legitimate concerns that should be addressed. It appears we got too caught up on the perceived legal threat and didn't pay enough attention to the blatant BLP vio in the article. Swarm we ♥ our hive 17:46, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Orlik8 Made a legal threat here Weegeerunner (talk) 04:56, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Indef'ed by User:Orangemike. DMacks (talk) 06:00, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Issue with User:Verdy P[edit]

No action taken. Appears more to be a content issue then a conduct issue, some of the replies have got a bit fraught, although the best plan here is for both people to drop it. Mdann52 (talk) 08:42, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

verdy p (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Please review the user Verdy P and the way he responds to users on Wikipedia, as can be seen on his Talk page. I originally inquired why a page title was changed, in addition to some of its content. He did provide a valid reason for the former, but had no valid points for why he changed the content and made it more incorrect. I tried to explain this to him, but he instead chose to insist that he is correct, despite being proven wrong with facts, and continued to respond with arrogance, and then rudeness. As you can see in his latest reply on the issue, he proceeds to use inflammatory words and declares that he will delete any further replies from me, which he did.

I don't think this is the attitude that regular Wikipedia editors should be displaying; it also should not be tolerated because he can easily just continue with these questionable edits and dismiss everyone who tries to correct him. (talk) 15:32, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

@ You must notify users when you start a discussion about them on this noticeboard. I have taken care of that for you. Ivanvector (talk) 15:39, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Agreed. His response was heavy handed and haughty KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 16:03, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Please clarify—which response was heavy handed and haughty? Johnuniq (talk) 00:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
I've said repeatedly to him that I had already replied to the answer, but he insists in discussing about things I'm not interested. I have said him to stop this discussion and discuss it somewhere else.
He continues... I've just stoped this discussion going nowhere, my talk page is not the appropriate place for that. What can I do? verdy_p (talk) 18:04, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
You are not interested in the subject, and yet you keep insisting that whatever information you put into the article is valid, even with lack of proof? (talk) 15:41, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I saw some of the discussion (User talk:Verdy p has been on my watchlist since April 2013 when Verdy p provided some very helpful advice). The IP is completely misguided—we are volunteers and expecting people to argue indefinitely on their user talk page is very unreasonable. Verdy gave several detailed explanations (the section is now 1950 words), and the fact the IP does not like the replies does not entitle them to waste even more volunteer time at ANI. In general, if an editor thinks a page title is not correct and they not sure how to discuss that, they should ask at WP:HELPDESK. Harassing someone on their talk page is not helpful. Johnuniq (talk) 00:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Because you are volunteers, it gives you the permission to respond to people with arrogance and call them names? Because that is what he had been doing in all of his replies. It seems to me that you did not read the entire discussion, nor did you try to understand the details of why the discussion had been prolonged. Verdy had made some changes to the content of an article, which were incorrect changes. Despite my many attempts to explain to him why those changes are incorrect, using facts and clear evidence, he continued to insist that I am the one who is wrong (again, with invalid arguments); so you are saying that I should simply agree to whatever he says, even when he's wrong. Sorry, but being a volunteer does not entitle you to treat others with a lack of respect; it does not make your words and assumptions the absolute truth and it certainly does not label others who try to fix your errors as harassers. Also, the argument would not have extended "indefinitely" had Verdy at least tried to carefully read my replies and humbly accept that he was mistaken; not wanting to admit his mistake was a bigger priority to him. (talk) 01:08, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Nothing the IP has done is harassment. You've unfortunately shown a lack of neutrality here (which is understandable, given that it's your friend). Furthermore, in addition to the harassment claim, you told the IP that he was "wasting time here at ANI." You seem to have exactly the same civility and superiority complex-toward IPs issues Verdy has. I hope that's only because you're heated about your friend being brought up here at ANI. --DawnDusk (talk) 03:28, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Repeatedly posting to a user's talk page is a minor form of harassment. Johnuniq (talk) 06:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
No it is not a form of harassment when those repeated posts are replies to the user. If I had been posting a bunch of additions without any replies and simply filling up the talk page with provoking messages, then yes, that would be harassment. Don't tell me that users aren't allowed to post replies in an attempt to correct someone, claiming that such would be a form of harassment. If it's in the clause for you volunteers to have the right to be stubborn and unwilling to accept when you're wrong, then I'm sorry for the "harassment". (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: The moment I saw Verdy's message that included "IP accounts like yours have very low trust among Wikipedia users, they are frequently reverted," it became clear to me that we have a WP:CIVILITY issue as well as a lack of understanding of WP:IPs are human too. Verdy has certainly tipped his hand about his bad faith towards the IP that makes anyone trying to argue that he isn't being a WP:JERK and needs to take a step back here simply wrong. If the IP can produce his sources that show 1. The North American release is the only official one. and 2. It's referred to as "C: The Contra Adventure" by the game's own manual, then he's entirely in the right. However, even if he is wrong, Verdy has handled this quite poorly. Side note: other damning comments include " like you stupidely continue to do here" and "if you want trust you DO need a personal account". --DawnDusk (talk) 03:25, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
I was going to provide sources, but you're right, his talk page isn't the place to list them. I have plenty of sources that confirm what I posted; but even if I did try to provide them at the right page, as Verdy stated, he doesn't care about the game. That, I find rather contradictory for someone who claims they are correct on a matter that pertains to the game itself. (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Your reading is incorrect, and Verdy is a helpful editor, not my "friend". The advice given to the IP is completely correct—anyone caring about their privacy would make an account (see MediaWiki:Anoneditwarning which is displayed to the IP every time they click edit—Verdy's advice is merely echoing that official statement, with the extra and correct observation about reactions from many editors—whether those reactions are justified or not). Please don't conflate direct language with civility. The issue of the article title is not a matter to be settled on Verdy's talk page, as Verdy explained to the IP; also see my above reference to WP:HELPDESK. Johnuniq (talk) 06:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
No, but correcting him when he's wrong is a matter to be settled because otherwise, that kind of attitude will follow him with further edits he makes on Wikipedia. Please don't tell me that you would condone such conduct. That has been the biggest issue with him. (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
On my talk page I have all the rights to give a personal opinion even if you think it is wrong, you cannot insist on changing it. My talk page is not a WP project.
As I said, I gave my opinion, you gave yours. All stops there when I've said I don't want to invest more time in additional topics that were not even the reason of his initial question.
Everyone has the right to have an opinion and give it on his personal page. It is not needed to force people to change their mind: this is abusive against my own freedom.
When we talk on WP, it is only to try convincing others people to join some **common** project, or agree together with some changes to do in an article or community project or when there are some concerted decisions to take by reaching some form of consensus (but there's nothing to do on my talk page where no public consensus is reachable).
How would have you reacted if I had asked you a question about Lie's algebra (or some other topic you're not interested in) and each time you gave some reply or opinion, I insisted multiple times during several days trying to convince you it was really important?
How do you react when you see your mailbox filled with notifications or ads for products you've never bought and don't want to buy but the notifier still repeats its alerts several times a day? You just put the mails to garbage. Yes this is named "harassment" if, after instructed the notifier to stop sending his post on the same topic continues (and in the email world, this is generally considered as "spam". verdy_p (talk) 06:56, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
You have every right to express your opinion on your Talk page. What is not permitted, I hope, is putting your opinion into the article and then insisting that you are correct about it, which is exactly what you did. You do have the freedom to believe what you want; but when you choose to ignore plain facts and stick with your own opinion on something when it is evidently false, you are simply deluded. You can have an opinion on things such as preference or taste; don't tell me that facts are opinion-based, tailored to each individual. Otherwise, this entire site would be useless.
As for how I would have reacted about the Lie's Algebra topic: unlike you, I would at least admit that I know little about the subject and therefore I am likely wrong about it. What did you do? You added false information about a subject for which you admittedly know little and have little interest about. Then, you continue to insist you are correct, as if you know the facts; again, for a subject for which you admittedly know little about and care little about.
Also, don't compare apples to oranges. You're talking about soliciting advertisements and SPAM mail that are sent to individuals unprovoked. They are sent in mass quantities regardless of your actions and/or interactions with them. What I did was address why you put incorrect information into the article's content (again, as I already said, I understood why the article title had to be changed). Instead of agreeing you made a mistake, you insisted that your edits to the article were not wrong. Then you instructed me to stop responding to you and be ok with you continuing to make similar edits to other articles with opinion-based information. (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree; you're right that this conversation absolutely should not have taken place on Verdy's talkpage. That is the fault of the IP, who wouldn't know better. That being said, Verdy still handled it awfully. His first response, rather than telling the IP to go to the right page, was to engage him with a lengthy reply (which already showed him getting heated in the last sentence and didn't mention the correct venue to use). Did you honestly expect the IP not to think to reply there? It wasn't until Verdy's very last reply, where he also said he would delete any new comment the IP posted (which is totally his right to do per user talkpage policy) that he directed him to the right page. By this time, Verdy had already been extremely rude and, as others have said, heavy-handed and haughty. And no, I honestly wouldn't say I'm "conflating direct language with civility". Check out the Avoiding Incivility section of WP:CIVILITY. He was intense, unprofessional, name-called, and became condescending - those are right there in that section. Furthermore, it doesn't matter that his "advice" about creating an account was correct. It had absolutely no place in the discussion, it wasn't brought up by the IP at all, and Verdy was clearly using the fact that he was an IP to condescend to him. Second, no, it isn't true that IPs aren't to be trusted, should be discredited in discourse, or "need" accounts. Like I said, I'm quite the fan of WP:IPs are human too as well as the plenty of other WP policies about it. The bottom line is that Verdy were going to respond in the uncivil manner that he did (as well as bringing up the user's IP status as a jerky point out of nowhere multiple times), he shouldn't have engaged the IP at all. The best thing he could have done was direct him to the article's talk page right away. You're making it sound like he did and, as you said, "explained it to the IP." He didn't (until the very end, as I said). --DawnDusk (talk) 07:10, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Sad to say, I might not have been able to master the patience for so much tedious explanation as Verdy p did when the IP wouldn't take no for an answer. The only problem wrt courtesy on Verdy's page that I can see is that they were a bit short with BracketBot.[5] (That's supposed to be a joke.) IP, I'm afraid you expect too much time expenditure of our volunteers. @ DawnDusk: Golly, I recommend the parable of The Mote and the Beam to you, with your attack Johnuniq's integrity here. "You've unfortunately shown a lack of neutrality here (which is understandable, given that it's your friend)", "given that he's your friend". Twice, you say it, and it's made up out of whole cloth. You're a fine one to talk about assuming bad faith. Am I to assume the IP is your friend? (To be clear, I don't suppose so for a moment.) Don't make such charges lightly, please. Bishonen | talk 10:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC).
Yes, Verdy is not at all out of line for his inflammatory responses. Instead, it is the fault of the IP user (me) for even having a problem with that. Because Verdy is a volunteer, right? (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • You're right. That was a mistake on my part and an indicator of my bad judgment. With that - I've said my piece. I will depart from this thread. I apologize to User:Johnuniq sincerely. DawnDusk (talk) 10:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Even if I was cited many times above, I do not understand the general spirit in most of what is written above, with many people making personal judgements without even knowing me or asking me.
The fact is that I tried to help for several days the same IP editor, I tried to explain various things, but as he had already agreed why his initial question was fully answered (why the page was renamed), he continued to post messages for several days speaking about things unrelated to his initial question, trying to convince me about somthing I'm not interested in.
I was finally upset because I had instructed him not to continue his discussion in my talk page. I gave my opinion, he gave his own but this does not matter, I don't want to continue on this game topic (I was only concerned on why the page was renamed many months ago when I was interested in having the "C:" interwiki prefix being allocated to Commons).
Several times also I instructed him to sign his posted messages, and he didn't (but he criticized me immediately when trying to answer the first time to the many topics he started initially (he did not undestand why I splitted his message in several parts, when commenting them separately (in indended paragraphs all signed separately and not mixed at all with his own words). I just wanted to act fast, my talk page is not a wikipedia article and I don't want to take too much time.
Yes finally I was a bit rude but only in one word (after repeated attempts to have him stop his discussion).
For the rest I was helpful and very patient for several days. I had stopped the discussion on my talk page (this is my right jsut like everyone else in Wikimedia that no longer wants to discuss or being notified multiple times each day about topics they are not interested in), but as he refused that, I had to be more expeditive (I don't think it was "inflammatory" given the time I had already given for several days for a topic I was not interested in). I could have not replied anything and would not have given any help to him, but he still does not want to recognize that I was helpful and does not consider the time I already gave to him only.
But I don't know which WP policy I would have violated that merits a notification or action from administrators here, just for my own talk page (which was not the appropriate place to talk about the article) after all the time I gave voluntarily. Please, next time use the article talk page, or use the standard forums. I have been helpful enough about most of your questions but if you disagree the WP forums are there to discuss them: there are plenty of WP projects you can join (but I do not participate to the WP games portals or projects).
And was it really "haughty" to explain him that IP users are frequently not given any trust in many pages for their edits? Was is haughty to suggest him to create a regular account (and explaining him why it would be a protection for him)?
And sorry but I don't understand the qualifier "handed" that was given about me above. Remember that English is not my native tongue. I did not find any appropriate definition with a context that could explain it, so I think the word was badly chosen or very informal. There has been other personal comments above that I do not consider being in line with WP policies, from people with whom I had not discussed before (in a time I can remember): how do you think they can make such personal judgements? All comments about my supposed "friendship" with people I don't know or that I have not discussed before are out of topic.
Thanks. verdy_p (talk) 06:56, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Please ignore ANI—if an editor with more than a month's experience posts something needing your response I will let you know on your talk. I hang out here and so am familiar with the fact that anyone can edit also means anything can be asserted at ANI. Trying to refute every mistaken claim is pointless—the best response here is silence to let the thread fade away. The IP will never be satisfied, and the simplest is to just revert any further comments they make on your talk—do not put any explanation in your edit summary, just remove comments with summary "remove"; the reason for that is to not give the IP something to argue about (if you put an explanation in your comment, they might think it is reasonable that they should reply). If the IP persists, I will find someone to fix the problem. The IP should take the advice given and pursue the question of the article title at the article talk page or WP:HELPDESK. Johnuniq (talk) 11:38, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
And yet again, you completely ignore the issue at hand and assume the favor is on the side of Verdy_P, Johnuniq. I repeat yet again, the issue is not with the article title, but with how Verdy refuses to accept evidence for why he is incorrect and how he responds so condescendingly. As for me never being satisfied? All Verdy had to do was swallow his pride and simply accept that he did not know all of the facts on the article at hand. One little thing seems to be asking too much from him, according to you; again, probably because both of you are volunteers on this site and you guys must look out for each other, no matter your position. (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Note: By interleaving replies in User:Verdy p's post,[6], as well as top-posting above Johnuniq, has made Verdy's coherent post incomprehensible; you can't tell which bits are whose. This may work in e-mail, but is strongly deprecated on talkpages. In justice to Verdy, I've removed the IP's responses from inside Verdy's and paste them here below, moving up Johnuniq's much earlier response. I'm sorry if it's not clear which bit exactly the IP is responding to, but it was the best I could do. If you can improve on my arrangement,, with due consideration for others, then please do. Bishonen | talk 14:35, 30 March 2015 (UTC).
Enough with claiming that you were being helpful by saying that your information is not incorrect just because you say so, even despite evidence otherwise. I don't remotely perceive how you think that is being helpful. (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
You were not helping me "for several days" by insisting that your edits were correct. Even in the face of evidence, you decided that you were still correct; which I find funny because you keep repeating that you're not interested in the subject. (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
In addition to changing the page title (which I accepted was justified), you changed content in the article itself, which was based on your incorrect opinion. That, I also had a problem with (which I explicitly stated); you instead kept insisting that your information is valid. You even added a false, shallow citation note to the claim you put into the article. (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
No, but what has been haughty from you is how authoritatively you insist that I am wrong, even when what you provide as arguments is so thin. (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
You instructed me several times? There's another lie from Verdy_P. He asked me once, and I signed my edits promptly since that one. (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
No, but using words like "stupidely" is not informal at all, right? It is not making a judgement on someone who's trying to explain something to you about a subject you admit you don't care about. Does being a "volunteer" automatically make your word and your wikipedia edits superior to all non-volunteers', regardless of their validity? (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

For the record, I've placed the evidence on the talk page of The Contra Adventure. It's there in plain sight. Also, don't mind my irate wording; since Verdy is not at all at fault for replying with such crass, I figure I would be allowed. Unless, of course, that's one of the special privileges of you volunteers. (talk) 17:29, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. I said I wouldn't post anymore, and although it was wrong of me to charge John with bias due to friendship, he IS being incredibly short-sighted (completely ignored the evidence that I laid, in addition to the IP's own, and instead is just dismissing this with handwaves because he disagrees). DawnDusk (talk) 04:04, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
What you are missing is that Verdy provided a polite and detailed response including some important technical information. Please stop and examine the following line, then click the link.
[[C: The Contra Adventure]]C: The Contra Adventure (check the URL where this goes)
Verdy could have ignored the IP's question, but instead explained that the issue was discussed a long time ago, and that "C:" cannot now be used. Johnuniq (talk) 04:35, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
And once again, YOU decide to ignore the point of this issue and continue to assume it pertains to the page's title; a subject which, you're right, has been discussed a long time ago and that I had already come to agree with. Here I am repeating the issue at hand for the umpteenth time (probably due to you either deliberately ignoring my replies in favor of a fellow "volunteer" that you admittedly follow in his work, thus making your own look very biased, ignorant and unintelligent; or because this is your level of reading comprehension); the issue pertains to Verdy's arrogance and stubborn, counter-productive attitude towards his page content changes. I wrote that besides the page title, he also changed content in the article and made it seem like what he wrote were facts. The latter is what I had a problem with and instead of accepting his mistake, he continued to insist that I'm the one who's wrong. Me trying to explain this to him constitutes stupidity in his book and a waste of his time. He must really feel above others when he can't even accept his own mistakes. (talk) 20:18, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Also, don't tell me that Verdy was being polite when he said things like "You should care about it.", "And I absolutely do not care at all about your preception of "quality" when you don't care about Wikipedia usages and don't want to learn.", "and other people on Wikipedia have not disputed the fact like you "stupidely" continue to do here". I didn't realize that being demanding, arrogant, condescending and vulgar fit the criteria of being polite; it must be a new policy for volunteers.
Wikipedia isn't a resource of information to which ALL readers are strictly obligated to edit or contribute, let alone create accounts for. I'm not (or at least was not) the only one who falls into the category of readers as far as Wikipedia goes. As such, we are not really familiar with editing regulations that Verdy values and stresses so much over content accuracy/validity. You may not believe it, but it actually damages Wikipedia's credibility when it becomes riddled with inaccurate information, the likes of what Verdy has added into the game's article.
I think it's phenomenal when many of you volunteers spend more time and effort in getting each other's back than understanding the issue at hand. Cringe-worthy to think that Wikipedia is maintained by people like this, but not at all surprising with respect to a significant public perception of it. (talk) 20:31, 31 March 2015 (UTC) (talk) 20:22, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Good to see this is going on ignored and many of these volunteers have no valid arguments to dispute my complaints. The fact that there's no progress shows how much freedom some privileged users have on this site. Hey, how's Verdy doing, what with adding inaccurate information to pages and insulting anybody who disagrees with him? Hard at work in shaping up the site, it must be. (talk) 03:13, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Personal attacks alleged (restored from archive, needs close)[edit]

No consensus for a topic ban on QuackGuru, AlbinoFerret has decided to take a 6 month break from the area, and discretionary sanctions have been authorised by the community for use in this area. Mdann52 (talk) 10:59, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Retitled to "Personal attacks alleged" from non-neutral "Personal attacks by QuackGuru". See wp:talknew. --doncram 13:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC))

QuackGuru has engaged in personal attacks. In violation of AGF and misrepresenting me and my edits. Contrary to warning diff he continues to post links to a closed WP:AN/I section that was closed no consensus in an effort to discredit me. The attacks are not on point, but personal, not directed to the topic, but me. This has no place on the talk pages of WP articles.

  • His latest including a link to the closed WP:AN/I section in the edits comments. diff diff
  • Previous linking of the section closed WP:AN/I in edit comments. diff
  • He even uses a user page to hold the information so he can easily paste it. diff
  • He has placed the link in comments on an admin's user page, and the edit is a pure attack.diff
  • He has placed the link in the comments and the attack on a request for page protection that I made. diff

Edit March 10, 2015 (added 5 more diff's below)

  • So not to get lost in the long discussion. QuackGuru on this page made another more serious harassing post towards me on my disability here. This is an ongoing pattern.
  • Another link to the section in comments to discredit me diff
  • Another link to the section in comments to discredit me diff
  • Another link to the section in comments to discredit me diff
  • Links to the old AN/I section and misrepresents the nature of it to discredit me. diff (note: 4 difs added by AlbinoFerret in this dif and this dif today Jytdog (talk) 17:30, 10 March 2015 (UTC))

This has to stop, There are serious violations of WP:EQ including misrepresenting, AGF, and making the discussion on the other editor and not the topic and WP:HARASS for the persistently trying to discredit me over old and resolved WP:AN/I sections. Asking him to stop has done no good. Smearing another editor should not be done. AlbinoFerret 03:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

So the first dif is "User:AlbinoFerret claims "You have not discussed one edit in the 19k characters you inserted."[7] But I did discuss sources User:AlbinoFerret deleted.[8] The response was "Reliability does not guarantee inclusion."[9] That is not a specific objection for excluding relevant information. User:AlbinoFerret is not here to improve this page IMO. how is deleting numerous reliable sources improving this page? QuackGuru (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2015 (UTC)"
I am not seeing anything ANI worthy there. Sorry Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
@QuackGuru, thanks for pointing out I had the wrong diff. I have struck out the wrong one and placed the correct one. AlbinoFerret 03:37, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
That discussion already happened in the WP:AN/I QuackGuru keeps linking to and is now 5 months old. It is a content disagreement, and this focus of this section isnt on content, but the persistent personal attacks by QuackGuru. The noticeboard is only one place out of many, and it was the noticeboard for page protection, not a place to level personal attacks or discuss editors. AlbinoFerret 03:34, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Can someone please point out the personal attack? I do not immediately see the insult being directed. I think we are nearing 150 days of daily edit warring at this article so I recognize the tension. Blue Raspberry (talk) 04:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
I'd agree BR, I don't see WP:NPA here. I do see unhelpful behaviour, not unidirectionally, including WP:IDHT, WP:Battleground and WP:NOTHERE. I fully understand AF's furstration at QG's massive undiscussed edits on a controversial topic, usually I find with reasonable content in them but lots of dross that doesn't add to the article as well. I also understand QG's frustration with AF undoing what is a large amount of work. But QG is persistently trying to discredit AF over old and resolved ANI threads. I don't know what can be done to reduce the tension at the e-cigarette family of Articles but I think some form of sanctions need to be handed out to those making it harder for productive collaboration to happen. SPACKlick (talk) 08:21, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
I think sanctions might be the way to go here since there are multiple problem editors. Many editors left and unwatched the article as it became toxic. Considering how often e-cigs have come up at WP:RSN where decent medical sources always seemed to be challenged by the same group of editors, I'm concerned there may be significant POVs running the discussion. The more problematic POV seems to be being critical specifically of sources that are critical of e-cigs. There are behavior issues tied to how editors are dealing with content, so it doesn't seem like it's easily addressed here at ANI where people will say it's just a content dispute and ignore the behavior problems within it. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:03, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
@Bluerasberry While it is not classically defined WP:NPA it is WP:HARASS and the two are very close. AlbinoFerret 14:11, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
  • QuackGuru, it would be better to please keep this diff collection on your own computer, not Wikipedia. Thank you. Otherwise, I don't see harassment here, and certainly not personal attacks. I agree with Doc James there's nothing for admins to do. Bishonen | talk 16:37, 5 March 2015 (UTC).
Bishonen So, its ok to smear another editor by bringing up old AN/I sections, even those that were closed with no consensus of wrongdoing. Even on article talk pages and others in an attempt to discredit and smear another editor? AlbinoFerret 18:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Bringing up what you have stated before is not a smear. Possibly a topic ban of User:AlbinoFerret would improve things. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
I do think you may be right, that at least a temporary (perhaps 3 month) TBAN from electronic cigarette articles would be good for AlbinoFerret's equilibrium. This is an issue where advocates are running well ahead of the evidence, and this is necessarily a source of friction and controversy. The Wikipedia articles are a classic case of WP:TRUTH. Guy (Help!) 20:33, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
I'd agree with considering a temp TBAN. I had a discussion with AF on my talk page awhile back [11] about them being too locked-in to the topic and not being able to step back. Looking at the current situation I do think it would be helpful to both AF and the topic if they had a break. The previous ANI on AF specifically said there was no consensus at the time on an action, but that is very different from saying there wasn't a behavior problem. I think AF definitely has the potential to approach things more evenly (this conversation did give me some hope), but they really need to step out of their single topic and get experience in less contentious topics since their posting history looks like a WP:SPA right now.Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:59, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
I am not a WP:SPA, I edit other pages and have other interests. AlbinoFerret 21:39, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
@Doc James, The whole other section was a smear campaign, started by you. All based on content disputes. Had it resulted in a finding against me, perhaps it could be used here. But it didnt, and talk pages of articles are not the place to try and bring up dirt on another editor. AlbinoFerret 21:59, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Some of what Albino says is valid, in that this is the proper forum for bringing the list of diffs - not article Talk pages or admin Talk pages. Deploying the list in that way is harassment-y and I think QG should be warned to address behavior issues in appropriate venues going forward. However I don't agree with anything else Albino has written. (particularly his claim that it was not valid to link to the ANI section concerning a topic ban against him; we all know that many ANIs lose focus and become sprawling, uncloseable messes, as that one did. There was plenty of solid feedback on Albino's behavior in that ANI, however, and linking to it is OK.) Jytdog (talk) 21:06, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
  • it appears that QuackGuru has not taken down the page tracking Albino's behavior yet, despite being advised to do so by an admin, which is not good. QG, it is fine to build such a list but you have to deploy it and then get rid of it. You may have not been ready to use it but your hand is forced now. So - either just delete it, or post it here with a request for admin or community action against Albino, and then delete it. But either way, it should go. Jytdog (talk) 20:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Bishonen, I put a hat on it for now. Is this good enough for now or do you still prefer I blank the page. I'm not done with it. This will go to arbcom if admins don't do anything soon. QuackGuru (talk) 21:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Quackguru see WP:POLEMIC - it is OK to compile a list of behaviors in your userspace but you must use it timely. That is why i said that your hand has been forced, and you have to use it and lose it, or just lose it. It seems like you have enough there to request the community to topic-ban, and this is the place to do that. The last one could have potentially succeeded but it was lost in that totally sprawling ANI. But i will get out of the way and let bish answer. Jytdog (talk) 21:10, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Quackguru, for you to blank it yourself would be an acceptable compromise, from where I stand, between the hat and putting a speedy tag on it. Blanking isn't a problem, is it? The material would still be at your fingertips via the history. Bishonen | talk 22:31, 5 March 2015 (UTC).
A short time ago I did blank the page. QuackGuru (talk) 22:34, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed Block for QuackGuru[edit]

There is no concensus for a block of QuackGuru at this time. HiDrNick! 20:36, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

QuackGuru has a long history of blocks and banns log including a past block for personal attacks and harassment. He appears to be a WP:SPA that focuses on controversial medical articles. Past short banns and blocks have done no good. I proposed an indefinite block or alternately a one-year block. He has engaged in harassment WP:HARASS again. His actions to remove some of the harassment don't go far enough, the edit summaries are still there as well as the attacks on talk pages. AlbinoFerret 13:18, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

User:AlbinoFerret proposed the same thing before and that went nowhere fast. See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive864#Block_or_Ban. A return WP:BOOMERANG will resolve the issue at hand. QuackGuru (talk) 17:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I endorse an immediate block for QuackGuru for this edit. I note that QuackGuru regards me as WP:INVOLVED per this section of his talk page. It lists a collection of dubious statements and untrue allegations against me, and has done since December 2014 in violation of WP:POLEMIC. If QG has issues with me I request that they address them in the proper way. While I do not accept that I am INVOLVED here, I do request that another admin make the block. --John (talk) 19:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
QuackGuru has no right to comment on AlbinoFerret's private life whatsoever, let alone assume he's lying about things QuackGuru can't know anything about. I've warned him. Bishonen | talk 19:41, 6 March 2015 (UTC).
How many warnings will QG get for harassment? AlbinoFerret 13:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps the same amount of WP:ROPE you've been given to continue your obvious advocacy. BMK (talk) 15:44, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Obvious advocacy? You are incorrect. That is a baseless false charge. AlbinoFerret 15:48, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Really, a "baseless false charge"? If that is so, it is one that is accepted as true by a goodly number of very experienced editors who voted in support of a topic ban for you. Your advocacy isn't in the least covert, it is, as several have commented, easily recognizable. BMK (talk) 21:55, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't have time to count the total number of past warnings against QuackGuru, so I'll simply list the notices given recently:
I suppose one could give QuackGuru another warning and remind him not to ignore administrative advice or attack editors, as has been done many times in the past, but I don't think such an approach would be helpful to the community (or the administrators). This editor was blocked many years ago for canvassing via email and making misleading accusations, and it appears that with every successive administrative warning, his disruptive behavior continues to worsen and escalate. -A1candidate 16:06, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
In addition I think that may give light into QuackGuru's activities on electronic cigarette in the recent past. It has not gotten any better. Arguing round in circles trying to get a press release used for medical content, making 20000 character edits in private with no notice or discussion on the talk page. AlbinoFerret 16:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that QuackGuru's ownership of articles is highly detrimental to the consensus building process and I note that he had been previously warned (and blocked) for making edits without first seeking consensus but am not surprised that he continues to ignore all administrative warnings. -A1candidate 16:34, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
You folks have a nice little circle going on here, a walled garden of mutually supportive comments, mostly between SPAs with the same objective in mind. Only problem is, every comment just makes the groups' general lack of objectivity even more obvious. BMK (talk) 22:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
I am not an SPA, and I suggest you strike out that comment. -A1candidate 13:24, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Since I'm just back from a sepsis-enforced break I don't want to step in and make what would be a controversial block, especially in a situation where an uninvolved admin decided to just warn you for it, but Quack, that was unnecessary and under different circumstances (and if I'd beaten Bish here,) I probably would've blocked you. If you do something similar in the future, I probably will. You do a lot of important content work, but there's really no reason to make such a comment. Kevin Gorman (talk) 13:15, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support immediate block - This recent comment by QuackGuru was clearly targeted against an editor's personal life. The edit summary was highly inappropriate, inexplicably cruel and plain disgusting. Given that the comment was made on the administrators' noticeboard where editors should be particularly mindful of their own behavior, and that QuackGuru had been previously warned and blocked for long-standing patterns of personal harassment and disruptive editing (see block log and recent warnings), I think a much longer block might be necessary. We are not dealing with a new or inexperienced editor, but a disruptive, long-term editor (account created in 2006) who knows enough about Wikipedia's guidelines and policies but continues to ignore them ad infinitum. A1candidate 13:49, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong support per A1candidate. That comment from QG was beyond the pale. Considering his long list of blocks for the same type of behavior, I would hope such a block would be longer than a day or two. -- WV 16:21, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
    • A1 and WV please pay attention - above an admin has already said they took action for that comment. That incident is done. A1 I understand you both would love to get rid of QG b/c he fights quackery but. In any case this attempt to pile on and override an admin is as unseemly as QG's remark. Jytdog (talk) 16:58, 7 March 2015 (UTC) (amended per Winkelvi's objection below. my apologies. Jytdog (talk) 19:27, 8 March 2015 (UTC))
      • There's nothing wrong with QG fighting quackery, except that he does it while violating a series of well-established behaviorial guidelines. His attempt to enforce a topic ban on me does not give me much hope that he will ever change his behavior. -A1candidate 22:44, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
      • Jytdog, HOW CAN YOU EQUATE A SLUR with a call to sanction a slur?! It's entirely appropriate to debate whether a stronger sanction is warranted given the repugnance of what QuackGuru said; it is nauseatingly out of bounds. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 12:17, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
        • Middle 8 I'll answer although the question seems more rhetorical than actually looking for an answer. I agree the comment was out of bounds - I was the one who hatted it. I also agree it was foul. I disagree with calling what he did a "slur" as he didn't insult AF based on his disability - instead he called AF a liar. It was a low blow, stupid, personal attack based on nothing; very bad judgement on multiple levels, especially in this context. I do see whipping up hysteria over a stupid comment, and trying to use that to gain momentum for a block, in the midst of a very badly framed case, as cynical and manipulative. So yeah, as unseemly as QG's remark, on a different vector. You may recall that I voted in favor of your RfC/U, even though it too was malformed. I think QG is very vulnerable to topic or even site banning based on a very clear record of bad behavior. he functions as kind of a "beserker" on fringe topics where you have alt med or other kinds of POV-pushers opposing sound MEDRS usage, and he goes right up to the line all the time, and over it, not infrequently. Just like he does at the e-cigs articles. I don't like to edit where he is working and leave ... but when he shows up things are pretty far gone already. Anyway, if you look at how this thread started, the case against QG is even more badly formed than your RfC/U, and that one failed too. (I said so way above, before you joined the discussion here) This one does not cut it. I am baffled as to why someone hasn't framed a clear case against him already. Jytdog (talk) 19:15, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
          • Jytdog, yes, rhetorical. You see it as bad and I see it as terrible. Calling someone a liar about their disability is for sure a slur ("an insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation"), and it was gratuitous, dickish and cruel (see my comment below to Ched). We'll have to agree to disagree on the import/properness of A1C highlighting it here; my view is that it's not just about this case: given the well-known context of QG's long and checkered history, it's unacceptable, mean-spirited. In any context on WP it's an 8/10 on the NPA scale (where 9 is the N-word and 10 is falsely calling someone a pedophile). A line was crossed. One just doesn't do that to people.... especially in a situation where collegiality is expected. I agree with your other comments, and if/when a stronger case is brought, I am pretty sure that said diff will feature. I may bring it to Jimbo's attention anyway. One does not screw with someone over their disability, including accusing them of lying about it ("disability policing" is corrosive); disability is hard enough as it is. Revolting. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 20:42, 8 March 2015 (UTC) edited20:44, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
      • "I understand you both would love to get rid of QG b/c he fights quackery" Jytdog, what the "eff" are you talking about? I haven't encountered QC before seeing this AN/I (that I'm aware of) so I have no idea what kind of "quackery" he fights (I'm not even sure what that means). Your accusation is out of line, but certainly not as out of line as QC's comments about AF. He has a long block log that testifies to his history of bullying and harassment. Your comments imply he's performing a necessary service to Wikipedia that we should all be grateful for. The truth is, Wikipedia is a WP:CHOICE and would do just fine without any of us. AGF and NPA, however, is not a choice -- it is required. In my opinion, your attempts to dismiss what he said by trying to assign ulterior motives to those who are supporting a block based on those comments are disgusting to me personally. I hope we never have to connect in WP again. -- WV 17:17, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
        • Winkelvi my apologies for lumping you with A1. That was sloppy of me and I apologize. I struck above accordingly. Again, my apologies. We actually have crossed paths briefly. Jytdog (talk) 19:27, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
          • Fine, I accept the apology, Jytdog. For the record, the crossing of paths comment was in reference to QG. I appreciate you striking the comments that included me, however, I still am not okay with your defense of QG and the reasons for said defense. It seems there is a suggestion that QC's contributions should outweigh the fact he questioned and mocked someone's disability status. Not acceptable, in my view. -- WV 19:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
          • Thanks that is gracious of you. i think you are still misunderstanding my perspective - pls see my comment to middle8 above. Jytdog (talk) 20:08, 8 March 2015 (UTC) (oy, forgot a crucial "mis". additional note. i do agree that the remark was disgusting. really i do. Jytdog (talk) 03:21, 10 March 2015 (UTC))
  • Support - I completely agree with weeding out quackery, but there are enough people willing to do it without QuackGuru's uncooperative, bullying style of editing. It looks like he's had plenty warnings and chances to improve his behaviour, but he clearly has no intention of doing so.-- (talk) 02:47, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support block per John Don't block QuackGuru this time but do insta-block anyone who questions anyone's disability in the future -- making clear my priorities. !vote changed, preceding comment added, QG-specific parts of below comment struck 05:15, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Set aside the other complaints; John is right that accusing someone of lying about their disability deserves an immediate block. It's a gratuitous slur, and worse than a lot of people probably realize: "disability policing" is real and corrosive. This cuts deep in ways that perhaps only people affected by disability can fully grasp. While QuackGuru may not have been aware of "disability policing", he damn well should have known his accusation was afoul of NPA, especially with a long block log and eight years of editing. Still, o Our standards should reflect growing disability awareness. Some may dismiss my comments as cynical since I've clashed with QuackGuru, but I find this triggering and it transcends WP politics. I apologize to Bishonen (who declined John's suggestion to block) and others for suggesting below that merely warning QG shows softness and callousness, and am hatting my (largely) hot and ABF comments just below. Still, John is right and we shouldn't tolerate such attacks. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 23:36, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
collapsing excessively hot and ABF comments made in reaction to personal attack
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

*Great -- now Wikipedia is going all callous about NPA and slurs based on disability. Apparently NPA means nothing as long as the attacker is well-liked, the attackee is not, and the attack is on a relatively invisible, disadvantaged group. Quackguru just insinuated an editor was lying about having a disability. Are you people that tone-deaf?

    • If ANY editor had said what QG said about race or sexual orientation or gender, they'd be blocked or banned in a heartbeat. The only thing worse is outright stereotyping. Disability rights, as a movement, isn't taken seriously compared to other rights movements; we see this everywhere, great job Wikipedia.
    • If SOME of the other editors here had said what QG said -- especially to a "favored" editor -- they'd be at least blocked, even though QG has a longer block log than the large majority of editors whose conduct comes up for review. And should know better, has edited for over 8 years.[12]
    • WP's double standard on NPA is now de facto policy, as is the "ends justify the means" attitude. As if the antidote for "civil POV pushing" is incivility, no matter how offensive it gets.
    • Yes, I've been on the other side of content disputes with QuackGuru but this goes way deeper than that because it's about disability. I have direct experience with it (in multiple ways; it's intense, exhausting, takes away opportunities every day -- it is what it is but at least show some respect). And I've seen how damaging it is when self-appointed "disability police" challenge others' disabilities. Being disabled is hard enough without all the cluelessness and bullshit people lay on you.
    • Nauseating hypocrisy: a warning is all that's given [13] despite the magnitude of NPA violation, and in spite of the block log and years of editing. (And as usual, QG removes the warning right away [14][15].) At least User:John gets it; [16] from your comments, most of the rest of you admins don't.
  • OK, enough. The double standard is sickening, and the tone-deafness to disability just makes me numb with rage. Great job, people. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 12:17, 8 March 2015 (UTC) copy-edited 13:45, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
    Striking; my intent with hatting was to strike the whole thing, but now that I'm striking so as to be exactly clear about my intentions, I'll leave one part.01:41, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
I agree. QG partakes in low-level and/or borderline transgressions on a regular basis, then occasionally, often when he thinks he can get away with it he ups the ante and completely oversteps the mark. The fact that QG went and made that comment kind of vindicates AF's original claims that QG was personally attacking him. QG thought things were going his way and that a WP:BOOMERANG was heading towards AF so he chanced his luck with more blatant attacks. Looks like he'll probably get away with it as well. I'm not going to recommend anything is done with QG, I'll leave that up to less involved editors but I do know from experience that QG is an impossible editor to work with and that he is not interested in consensus, never has been, probably never will be. People say he fights quackery, but there are plenty of editors that fight quackery that do not have long block logs for personal attacks, harassment, disruptive editing, edit warring, etc. Unfortunately many of these editors, whom I have a reasonable degree of respect for, seem to support QG.Levelledout (talk) 14:09, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
FWIW comment. QG has been around for a long time. I think there's a huge "WP:IDHT" issue with them, but I don't think it's deliberate. Anything related to "disabilities" is a very sensitive topic, and with good reason. Yes, QG is very tendentious by nature, and it can be very exasperating. Personally I had a few very long conversations with QG long ago, and I came to one conclusion: I don't think there's an ounce of intent to hurt anyone in his efforts here. Yes, .. he tends to go through things here with blinders on - but I don't think there's any intent to do harm in him. If you told QG "you hurt my feelings", he would spend hours digging up diffs and links to prove that he didn't. QG is doing his best to help the project, but I doubt is has ever crossed his mind to NPA/attack anyone. Just IMO. — Ched :  ?  16:13, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
I too, tried to have a conversation with QG long ago. That apparently did not work out, and he eventually acknowledged the futility of such an approach by stating in the edit summary that he was "not interested" to listen. His most recent attempt to enforce a topic ban on me right after I opposed his attempt to ban AF is disingenuous, to say the least. -A1candidate 16:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
I do understand your frustrations, and I wish I had an answer for you - but I can't think of one. There's a huge resistance to anything "fringe" related on wikipedia. The project secures itself in fact. Until you can actually prove that the earth is round - it will remain flat. That's just the nature of the beast. The best I can offer is this: don't tilt at windmills, recognize brick walls when you see them - and don't beat your head on them, and take comfort in your own beliefs - even if other's don't share them. — Ched :  ?  17:07, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Appreciate your comments there Ched, I probably shouldn't have brought intent into it since its the conduct issues that ultimately matter.Levelledout (talk) 17:35, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
@ Ched - I too had the impression that QG was fundamentally benign for some time until I saw his mean side. For example, WP:DICK, mocking other editors: Mallexikon: "I think you clarified this very nicely.'; Quackguru: "I think I clarified this very nicely.". He's also held a grudge toward me that started after I co-signed an RfC on him (which was concurrently brought with a thread at AN). Since then it's been POKE and BATTLEGROUND (below) despite multiple olive branches attempts [17][18][19][20] (which he just deletes from his user talk).
  • Wikistalking: 10 petty examples [21]
  • GAME-y/KETTLE accusations: characterizing edits I made as bad when he did the same thing [22]
  • Repeated, baiting, disingenuous "questions" about COI despite an explanation right in my signature line (Middle 8 (contribsCOI)) and multiple good-faith answers: (asked | answered twice); (asked); (asked | answered).
The above is not innocent. But it doesn't matter; NPA and CIVIL are to be applied only selectively, apparently.
So, no, I don't accept that QG's slur against AlbinoFerret was anything other than an attempt to mock and discredit them. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 18:18, 8 March 2015 (UTC) (struck sentence 02:19, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes suppression of legitimate discussion regarding QG's conduct on their talk page to avoid detection is yet another issue, I have an example of that: "archive - drama over". Edit: Another, better example, of plain deletion this time: diffLevelledout (talk) 18:44, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose here (for now) and take to ArbCom instead. Given that QG's behavior is so heavily tied to other editors and their actions in the topic, his behavior would seem better evaluated at ArbCom instead along with the suite of e-cig issues. The case below this seems to be much more standalone, but QG's actions are so intertwined with other editor's actions and mired in controversial topics it would seem a more methodical look by ArbCom would be more appropriate than a knee-jerk reaction here. People end up dealing with a lot of crap when dealing with fringe or advocacy type editors, so some of that does need to be disentangled in the topic. That being said, I do think QG can go too far sometimes. We don't afford people with disabilities any special privileges over anyone else here, and talking about AF's situation is going to be tough no matter what. WP:NOTTHERAPY has been brought up in that regard, but that's really as far as any conversation about disability should have gone. Since action has already been taken with regard to QG's comment on whether AF is disabled or not, are more systemic look at behavior at the article and with users is needed to really discuss the appropriateness of a block. I don't see that here at this time. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:26, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
He has been previously banned by Arbcom for similar behavioral issues and POV-pushing patterns. The Committee concluded that there was no apparent progress in QG's approach to editing. That was back in 2011. We are now in 2015, but has anything improved after four years of leniency and good faith assumptions? -A1candidate 18:13, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Chastising QG for a lack of progress in an area where essentially no progress has been made is a little one-sided, though. If everyone that attempted to warp our articles in favor of pseudoscience was simultaneously and indefinitely banned, wouldn't that do far more good?—Kww(talk) 20:02, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
That would do far more good if you take into account QG's repeated attempts to claim that mummified tattoo marks "conform to acupuncture points". How is that not a blatant act of pseudoscience advocacy against prior consensus? -A1candidate 22:51, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Levelledout .. understood. I think perhaps given the scope of all of this, that it is beyond what Ani is tasked to do Perhaps the WP:RFAR route is the best option. — Ched :  ?  19:58, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose ArbCom action should be undertaken. There has been much contentious editing from all sides. Blocking isn't going to resolve the issues. Jim1138 (talk) 21:30, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Comment: The question of why this has not been elevated long before this... Jim1138 (talk) 22:36, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose I said it above and I will say it again here. I think a good, PAG-based (not emotion/rhetoric-based) case could be pretty easily made, with about a couple hours of work finding difs. This case, is not that case, and thinking about a closer looking at !votes above, it does not appear that there is PAG-based consensus for a block here. In my view, the notion of punting his case to arbcom is just that - punting. The same work would have to go into it then, to make the case, so why not just do it here? (Arbcom cases don't happen by magic - diffs have to be brought, etc.) So withdraw the mess above, and start a new, clean, well-formed thread, if it really matters to any of the supporters. (AlbinoFerret is the one who brought this: I believe he is the only who can withdraw it) Jytdog (talk) 03:42, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
So you agree that there is reason to block him but it needs to have a pretty bow on it. AlbinoFerret 12:12, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
AlbinoFerret your reply is of a piece with your general lack of alignment with, and understanding of, how WP works. The community doesn't take action based on emotion, and we don't edit or resolve content disputes, based on what somebody likes or doesn't like. This isn't facebook. We have policies and guidelines that express the community's consensus on things, and we strive to edit based on them, behave based on them, and resolve disputes through reasoned discussion based on them. Reasoned and discerning WP:CONSENSUS is the very heart of this place. Hand-wavy "he's a dick" complaints don't go anywhere, and don't deserve to go anywhere - they don't provide a basis for rational discussion of the issues.Jytdog (talk) 14:49, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Agree with Doc James and Jytdog. And I'm not asserting Quackguru has done nothing wrong! But yes, this is whipping up hysteria over a stupid comment. Cloudjpk (talk) 05:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
A stupid comment? It was an attack. A low blow, and it follows attempts to discredit and harass me elsewhere. I should be surprised that anyone could come up with a defence of his actions, especially the one here on this page. You and the two editors you mention want a slap on a wrist, but only for an editor who edits with you, and who's edits you agree with. Had this been a first time, perhaps but we are way past first time as shown by QuackGuru's extensive history of harassment, edit warring, and other violations. AlbinoFerret 12:12, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I can get as annoyed as the next person with QG, but this does not merit a block (at least not one more than 24 hours); a warning (if anything) would suffice. Softlavender (talk) 12:23, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support Any derogatory comments about a person's health, or accusations that a person is lying about their health, is contrary to Wikipedia policy. As such, a block of some sort is clearly warranted - though I would find a lengthy one to be draconian, a moderate one is likely in order here. Collect (talk) 12:50, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
  • (Non-administrator comment) I am heavily involved in the topic at hand having spent a long time editing the e-cigarette article pretty heavily and having clashed with QG and AF. I think in the case of both editors the battleground that e-cig has become has brought out a negative side to their WP editing, in AF it's leaning towards ADVOCACY and leaning towards SPA as it becomes more and more a focus of attention, in QG this is found in WP:OWN and IDHT. The regularity with which QG makes edits without discussion on the Talk pages of e-cig articles, even though he knows that any edit on that page is likely to be contentious, makes it clear he's not looking for consensus but the article as he sees it. I also see competence issues in many of QG's edits which could do with a bit of copy editing for structure and repetition before they go live. A topic ban, in the short term, may make things better. I certainly think the page cannot improve with QG there. But the root problem is that e-cig, and the daughter articles, are battlegrounds where a lot of people are shouting, and nobody's [well not quite nobody] listening. I don't know whether ArbCom can do something to help in this matter but while banning QG from the page will reduce the amount of problems there it won't solve the root. SPACKlick (talk) 12:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support indef block or send to ArbCom. QuackGuru continues to make personal attacks, despite being warned as recently as a few days ago. In this edit of a couple of days ago QG attacks the conduct of several editors including myself and demands that answers be provided to them. WP:PERSONAL is quite clear that this is not allowed and that article talk pages are not the place for conduct accusations and smears. However, the worst thing about QG's conduct is the that they are not interested in consensus. Building 20k edits (about 1/3 of the article size) in relative privacy and then dumping them into articles without notification let alone discussion is consistent with this. Attempting to discuss matters with QG on their user talk page generally results in them suppressing the discussion by archiving or deleting it (or parts of it that they don't like), e.g. [diff1] [diff2]. QG of course has a very long block log and has also had been sanctioned by ArbCom in the past so has been given numerous chances to improve their conduct and shows little signs of doing so. I considered whether to make this post at all given that I am a highly involved editor. However this doesn't seem to be an issue for other editors, some of which have supported QG. As I have indicated I would have no issues with ArbCom taking a look at the wider picture.Levelledout (talk) 13:57, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
    • really baffling to me. The first dif you provide is just a Talk discussion (QG arguing against the bizarre claim that MEDRS says only reviews can be used and excludes statements by major health organizations); the 2nd is fine (per TPG it is OK to delete others' comments from your own Talk page) as is the 4th (people can archive their talk pages as they wish). The Arbcom diff is old history (that should be brought up in any carefully brought case and has already been mentioned above). I really don't understand why folks are not framing a clear case showing violations of behavioral policies and guidelines. Jytdog (talk) 14:14, 11 March 2015 (UTC) (striking, should not be commenting like this. Jytdog (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC))
The case against QG is rather clear cut in my opinion Jytdog and I respectfully disagree with you. Yes the first diff is an article talk discussion, that's my point. Content is irrelevant here as is whether QG is right or wrong about any content claims he makes. QG makes conduct allegations on the article talk page such as accusing editors of disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point. Some of the language they use is just plain rude and actually borders on a breach of WP:CIVIL. Whether or not QG is technically allowed to delete individual comments from their talk page is hardly the point. Remember that they do not own their user talk page and that part of its purpose is for legitimate discussion of their conduct. I have only ever had two discussions (as far as I can recall) with QG on their talk page and on both of those occasions they have either deleted or archived the discussion or parts of it in order to prevent it from continuing. I was fully aware that the ArbCom diff had been mentioned, doesn't mean that it isn't relevant to the point I was making.Levelledout (talk) 15:34, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Summary: QuackGuru made an extremely stupid remark that he should never have made, he was roundly chastised for it repeatedly by parties from all sides, and an admin warned him not to do it again on pain of being blocked. The End.

    The rest of this is just advocacy-driven hysteria, obvious e-cig advocates and fringe science advocates trying to take out one of their opposite numbers in a content dispute, in retaliation for the suggestion of a topic ban for one of them. (That suggestion of a topic ban, incidentally, came before QG's remark or this sub0section, which AlbinoFerret shoved in here above the topic-ban section, out of chronological order, so that people reading the thread would get to it first -- an extremely good example of the kind of WP:BATTLEFIELD tactics being carried on by the e-cig advocates. [See his edit here). No admin is going to override the original admin's warning with a block, that would be, in effect, double jeopardy, so this entire section is just useless and should be closed by an uninvolved party. BMK (talk) 20:23, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Just to clarify, not everyone who !voted "support" is a e-cig advocate or a fringe science advocate, obviously, but the campaign to ban QG and the hysteria surrounding his remark is indeed the work of those advocates. No collusion is implied concerning the actions of those advocates - I'm certain there's no need for them to discuss between themselves taking out one of their primary antagonists. AlbinoFerret started the ball rolling, and his colleagues joined in. BMK (talk) 20:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
The original complaint was made by Albino Ferret against QuackGuru alleging personal attacks. Therefore that's what was being discussed at the top of the thread and would seem the natural place to put the Proposed Block for QuackGuru. To claim that the thread not being in exact chronological order is going to affect the way that people vote is well, ridiculous. People might see one or the other first but it doesn't matter. Also, you argued particularly passionately that the proposal for AF was not driven mainly by involved editors and yet apparently QG's block proposal is an "advocacy-driven hysteria" "campaign". Strange.Levelledout (talk) 21:36, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Each of your responses in this section and the one below adds to the clear conclusion that you are not the neutral party you claim to be. BMK (talk) 22:33, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
OK well that is a baseless accusation that uses weasel words (I'm not the neutral party I claim to be because... just because). It's one way of neglecting to respond to reasoned argument of course, but not one that I appreciate or that I will be engaging with.Levelledout (talk) 23:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Any open-minded uninvolved editor will see precisely what I mean, despite your Wikilawyering. BMK (talk) 00:38, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
You need to provide evidence for serious accusations, not unsubstantiated insults. You should probably also read WP:BATTLE and WP:POINT.Levelledout (talk) 15:15, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
"Disability policing" is real, and damaging, and an issue on Wikipedia: see the unsolicited comment on my talk page from an editor concerned about that exact thing. For obvious reasons, I wish someone other than me had posted about it (or that someone other than QuackGuru had made the offensive comment). I'm done commenting in this thread on the merits of a block but "disability policing" needs to be taken seriously on WP. ... P.S. Just to make my intentions clear I've changed my !vote above to "Don't block QuackGuru this time but do insta-block anyone who questions anyone's disability in the future". [24] --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 04:55, 12 March 2015 (UTC) added P.S. 05:19, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Editors are blocked when bad behaviour needs to be prevented; editors are not blocked as punishment when there is very little chance of a problem being repeated. QG has acknowledged the error, albeit not very clearly, and there is no reason to debate the issue—if there is a repeat, QG will get a lengthy block; if there isn't, a block for a single bad comment is not warranted. The comment is not part of a series of similar issues. Johnuniq (talk) 05:57, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Hi Johnuniq -- I read WP:BLOCK specifically before commenting. In a case like this, per WP:BLOCKDETERRENT, #3 would apply: some offenses are so bad that we block automatically. (#2 could also apply when an editor has a tendency to push the envelope: they may not make this mistake again, but a block may get their attention. But #3 is the main thing.) --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 08:46, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Is that your considered opinion as an independent editor with a good understanding of Wikipedia's procedures, or as an acupuncturist who is very keen to have QG removed so you can promote your product unimpeded? Johnuniq (talk) 09:10, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Very much the former, which I think should be obvious in light of my !vote change to: "Don't block QuackGuru this time but do insta-block anyone who questions anyone's disability in the future". [25]. Look just a little bit above and you might even see that I mentioned this previously. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 11:34, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Middle 8, I'm not sure if you've seen the conversation starting after this comment by AlbinoFerret [26], but it does appear that AlbinoFerret is trying to justify their focus on e-cigs because of their disability (or extremely misunderstanding BMK's point). I'd prefer the topic of disability never even entered the conversation and focus solely on behavior here, but this kind of justification really concerns me. This is very different from questioning whether someone actually has a disability, so are you suggesting we shouldn’t question this kind of behavior I’m describing, or moreso not do what QuackGuru did specifically? This becoming a really strange situation. Kingofaces43 (talk) 13:07, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
@Kingofaces43: Not all that strange, really. The case against AlbinoFerrett as a SPA and civil-POV-pushing advocate is quite strong, and he's feeling the need to counter it with whatever he's got. So, even though he called for sanctions against QG for bringing up his physical disability, he obviously feels no compunction about using that physical disability as an explanation for the amount of editing he's done on e-cigarettes. What he seems not to understand is that by comparing oranges to oranges -- i.e. by dealing with percentages of his own edits as opposed to comparing the count of his edits against those of other editors -- that factor is eliminated, and has no bearing on the question. Whatever his physical disabilities are is irrelevant, because they exist when he edits an e-cig article and still exist when he edits an article on any other subject. So when I report that 67.07% of his article edits and 85.08% of his article talk page edits are on the subject of electronic cigarettes, there's no way in which any disability enters into those stats. BMK (talk) 16:57, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
No, I just dont like numbers and innuendo being used to discredit me. AlbinoFerret 17:24, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Hi Kingofaces43 - QuackGuru's insult/innuendo that AlbinoFerret was lying about being disabled was completely gratuitous. All AF had said was, essentially, that their post count in the e-cig area is high partly because they're disabled and thus at home and in front of the computer a lot. There was no reason to dispute this and it was dickish and invasive to do so.
Note: I think AF's volume of posting by itself doesn't require apology, so their disability is actually irrelevant in terms of examining their edits. What matters are the kind of edits and where they are made. Re the kind of edits, I've expressed concerns over AF's persistently not grokking MEDRS. Re where edits are made, BMK is correct that what is germaine to SPA and WP:ADVOCACY is not how many total posts AF has made about e-cigs, but rather what percentage such posts comprise of his total mainspace edits. ... That said, even if AF's disability is ultimately irrelevant to this inquiry, the baseless accusation that they lied is still wrong. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 19:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
P.S. Meta-comment, seed for possible essay: Disability among editors on Wikipedia needs to be addressed with common sense and respect; it should neither be used for twinkie defenses nor as a way to discredit people in any way -- including suggesting that a person is lying about it. As lie-accusations go, this is an especially bad one. When a person is simply asking for a reasonable accommodation, and not attempting to justify gross incompetence -- or is simply mentioning their disability by way of explanation of their editing style (as AF was, in above case) -- the burden they are imposing is low. Therefore it would be stupid to demand proof, and more stupid (and dickish as well) to accuse that person of lying about their disability, with no basis and with such low stakes; cf. "disability policing" (which may be one of those things, like getting called an epithet, that sounds bad but which you have to experience to know what it's really like). I hope that our norm becomes one of rejecting "disability policing" in any form. Demands of proof are bad and outright lie-accusations worse. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 19:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying, I pretty much agree with you entirely. No reason to ask of actual proof, but in cases like these I'd prefer not to even worry about disability and just chalk up relatively innocuous editing quirks as just that, and if something truly disruptive, it's disruptive. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:51, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose QuackGuru questioned a personal comment made by AlbinoFerret which he should not have done. But, in my judgement, this comment does not rise to the level of a block/ban. For the record, QG did not reveal or attempt to out AF in any way. Counsel him to use caution and move on. JodyB talk 12:41, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose block, but QG should face some admonishment for the disability-questioning comment. This is probably something that should be referred to ArbCom. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 20:03, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose as it looks like QuackGuru was fairly neutral in what he added, and all of it was well cited. I agree that that was a very offensive comment he made, but he already received an admin warning for it, so I would consider it closed. If, however, QG does continue with personal attacks, especially of that nature, I would support a block or a referral to ArbCom. Iwilsonp (talk) 23:10, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed topic ban for AlbinoFerret[edit]

User:AlbinoFerret has agreed to voluntarily walk away from the topic area for 6 months after a discussion on my talk page. [27] AlbinoFerret can still engage in legitimate dispute resolution (eg. the Arbcom request) but will otherwise be taking a break from editing anything related to e-cigarettes. I feel this is an acceptable compromise to the differing views expressed in this thread, and it will give AlbinoFerret time to gain editing experience and perspective in less controversial areas.

I have left the primary thread open for now because I'd like to let the discussion about Discretionary Sanctions run for another day before closing to make sure the community really wants that. ~Adjwilley (talk) 05:45, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:AlbinoFerret is making a lot of comments and edits to e-cig related pages. See See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive864#User:AlbinoFerret for previous behaviour issues. AlbinoFerret tried to hide Environmental impact section from a reliable source from the page. He eventually tried to delete some of the text.[28][29][30][31][32] AlbinoFerret deleted a number of reliable sources.[33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40] AlbinoFerret claims "Reliability does not guarantee inclusion."[41] But AlbinoFerret has not given a specific reason to exclude relevant information about safety. WP:COMPETENCE is not the issue IMO. AlbinoFerret has turned the e-cig pages into a WP:BATTLEGROUND. AlbinoFerret is not the only problematic editor at these pages. Some of the e-cig enthusiasts are not here to improve the e-cig pages. See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive867#E-cig_editors for background information on this. Something needs to be done to prevent this from happening over and over again. QuackGuru (talk) 21:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Those were edits in a content dispute. Some of them over 2 months old. This is not about content, but your actions on talk pages. AlbinoFerret 21:42, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
This is also about you deleting relevant content you find offensive. AlbinoFerret has a repeated pattern of trying to delete pertinent information about safety. AlbinoFerret is unable to formulate a logical reason for excluding the text. QuackGuru (talk) 21:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
That is a misstatement. There are valid reasons why the content was removed all covered under talk page sections.Here is a huge one. But this isnt a content dispute, this is a discussion of harassment that happened because you decided to smear me on talk pages. As for WP:BATTLEGROUND, I think you have done enough with building over 19000 character in edits in secret for a month, not discussing any of it on the talk pages, and then adding it, and reverting it back in. On such a contentious article, that should never have happened WP:CAUTIOUS In fact looking at the pages history, you are still planning more because of recient additions, but none of them have been brought to the talk page. AlbinoFerret 22:03, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Albino you are digging your hole deeper by making spurious complaints. per the userpage guideline WP:UPYES it is totally fine to draft article content in userspace. Jytdog (talk) 22:52, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Its not spurious, but the basis of WP, Consensus. But there is no consensus in building 19000 character edits in private, and making one 16k edit at once. There was no discussion on the addition, no post on the talk pages directing the other editors to it to look over. This has been done before on the main e-cig page. Granted there is nothing wrong with building edits on a sandbox, but a edit that is 1/3rd the size of the page should have been discussed. WP:CAUTIOUS AlbinoFerret 22:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

───────────────────────── QG, you should request some specific action that you would like the community to take - make a proposal and let folks react. You have been around long enough to know that just saying "something must be done" (passive voice) will get you no where fast. Jytdog (talk) 22:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I think an indef topic ban is most appropriate rather than a short-term topic ban. It is clear that User:AlbinoFerret is not here to improve the e-cig pages. QuackGuru (talk) 23:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Really, and what evidence exactly do you present in support of that? Other than the fact that you have disagreements with AF over content which is neither here nor there, I can't see that you've stated any whatsoever.Levelledout (talk) 23:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
  • support indef topic ban AlbinoFerret is not here and is WP:TENDENTIOUS. And this has been going on for a long time. And I see no reason to believe it will improve. Many chances have been given and few have been taken. It's time for this to stop. Cloudjpk (talk) 23:26, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support I would support a one-year topic ban. Hopefully in that time evidence will become more clear and the topic less controversial. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:38, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per Doc James. BMK (talk) 00:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support one year topic ban for Albinoferret. There are many issues here and AF is disrupting any genuine attempts to improve the articles, so much that it is bordering on WP:SPA. AF has previously done good work on other articles and I believe AF's and everyone else's time could be spent much better. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 00:15, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose This is nothing more than a content dispute. With diff's gathered over months showing a content dispute. All of which have talk page sections dealing with the content link1 link2 link3. The only thing this will accomplish is silence an active editor from the article that disagrees with some content, that press releases diff should not be used for medical content or problems with the sources. In fact one post above me, Doc James, lists a reason for banning me is that "Hopefully in that time evidence will become more clear and the topic less controversial.". AlbinoFerret 00:20, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Albino "the evidence" that Doc James is referring to, is medical evidence about risks of e-cigs. I know that a huge focus of yours, has been reducing the amount of what you call "speculation" in the article... but what is, in fact, statements about the unfolding medical consensus on risks. What he meant is that when the science is more solid and the scientific debate settles, there will be less controversy, and that in a year you should have even weaker grounds on which to be disruptive. Jytdog (talk) 00:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it is speculation. From the Chang, H. (2014). "Research gaps related to the environmental impacts of electronic cigarettes" source, the topic of the section you linked to "No studies specifically evaluated the environmental impacts of e-cigarette manufacturing; issues related to use of resources, assembly, nicotine source, tobacco cultivation and global production". Unfolding evidence? More like a lot of opinions to me, not based on anything, and the lone "review" of its kind. Because apparently it didnt review any studies as it says none exist. Its given its own section? Huge WP:WEIGHT issue here. Being the only source of its kind, what it reviewed is, basically nothing. This is a perfect example of a content dispute, and diffs 157-161 in QuackGurus post above, which are about three months old. AlbinoFerret13:07, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
I would say that the fact that you wrote the above, is a perfect example of your persistence in objecting, repeatedly and over a long period of time, to the inclusion of reasonable and well sourced content about health risks being added to the articles, by editors who are very experienced in dealing with health matters in WP. That you bring this up again, even here and now, is exactly why I support the topic ban. You know, I looked and looked, but I couldn't find a diff for this, but didn't you write somewhere that you care about this so much because your wife really needed to quit smoking and tried and tried and couldn't, and it was e-cigs that finally helped her do it? If I have that wrong, I apologize. Jytdog (talk) 15:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
I would say to that, that everyone is entitled to their opinions. But consensus is how WP is edited. Others have reasons to include this in the article, where it has stayed for the last three months or so. That does not mean I dont think its a WP:WEIGHT issue. It means that its included even though I think it has a weight issue. What you dont have is actions pointing to advocacy. You have a difference of opinion on content. AlbinoFerret 18:48, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
I think DocJames can likely speak for himself but anyway Jytdog, the "unfolding medical consensus" is basically that the short term risks are pretty low and that the long term risks should theoretically also be low. The only "speculation" is exactly how low the long-term risks are. If you are saying that in a years time it will be proven that e-cigarettes are more harmful, well that is just basically crystal-ball stuff. We shouldn't really be discussing content here, but since it seems to be being used as evidence so it seems somewhat necessary. Just demonstrates that this is a content dispute really.Levelledout (talk) 14:52, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
nope you are missing the point; this is about Albino's behavior. i won't belabor this. Jytdog (talk) 15:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support in my view the prior proposal to topic ban AlbinoFerret (which I supported) would have succeeded, except it turned into a sprawling mess and was closed out of hopelessness. This one is squarely focused. AlbinoFerret is a WP:SPA who wages an WP:ADVOCACY campaign favorable to e-cigs, and has been relentless in opposing the addition of well-sourced content about health risks. That pattern is clear from difs above and in the prior ANI. I do not intend this to be cruel, but he has said he is housebound and edits WP to keep himself sane (which I am very sympathetic toward) but still, WP:NOTTHERAPY - and especially not when, combined with advocacy, his editing is disruptive. (I had said this to him directly before.) He is the paradigm of disruptive advocacy on this article. WP is vast - let Albino edit elsewhere and not disrupt this topic any more. Jytdog (talk) 00:24, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
    • I am far from a SPA, I am a member of WikiProject Citation cleanup and also edit Bitcoin. As for WP:NOTTHERAPY, sane as in keeping active, you can only watch so many daytime talk shows or soap operas. AlbinoFerret 00:53, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
hatting personalization of the discussion. Out of bounds and distracting from focus of Albino's behavior Jytdog (talk) 19:15, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Your leaving out the part "My motivation is to help bring what is known about tobacco harm reduction to the article". Bringing out what is known about something is (through reliable sources), I hope, the goal of every WP editor. AlbinoFerret 19:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
I do get out every so often, and helping short term as a election judge is something I try to do. You would be surprised at the number of disabled people who work as election judges. I would be happy to send to an uninvolved admin a letter from Social security stating I am disabled. AlbinoFerret 19:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban per Jytdog. I don't have a strong opinion about the duration, but a year seems about right. Bishonen | talk 00:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC).
Changed my mind about the duration, per Kevin Gorman below. I support an indefinite ban with the option to appeal after a year. Bishonen | talk 13:46, 7 March 2015 (UTC).
  • Oppose The situation has to be understood in the context of the protracted, bitter content dispute that is e-cigarette articles. It has already been said several times that topic-banning AF would help. Yes it would help, it would help those editors that have been in a content dispute with AF for months on end. I think almost everybody who has supported this proposal so far is either moderately or highly involved in the said content dispute. I think that AF has raised some genuine issues here, did in fact originally raise some genuine issues on the article talk page with QG going about things in a covert way and dumping 20k edits into articles without so much as notification. QG attacked AF on the article page which according to WP:PERSONAL is not allowed. For this to be turned back round on AF is very harsh and unjust I think. It also seems to be almost entirely without substance.Levelledout (talk) 00:52, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
    • Considering that 57% of your edits (257/450 - with 233 to Talk:Electronic cigarette???) are to articles or talk pages about electronic cigarettes, it seems not impossible that you are a SPA as well, perhaps one with a COI. BMK (talk) 03:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Since when is a roughly 50/50 (haven't been bothered to check the exact amount) split between e-cig and other articles considered a single purpose account? What about editors that edit medical articles far more than I actually edit e-cig articles? Or is that perfectly OK I take it? Your COI accusation is spurious, groundless and you have no right to make it. Helps deflect some attention and blame though I suppose.Levelledout (talk) 12:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
So, you don't think that 57% of your edits going to one very specific subject – electronic cigarettes – and 43% going to a variety of other topics is an pretty good indication that you're here primarily to edit about that one subject? I would beg to differ, I think it's a damn good marker. It's not like your 57% is going to some broad area, like military history, or New York City or films, it's going to electronic cigarettes.

Like Bishonen, whose comment is just below this, I don't believe that any of my edits has been to articles on that subject (but I could be wrong, with over 150,000 edits you do lose track of a few in the course of almost 10 years), but I know advocacy when I see it ... and I've got pretty good radar for SPAs and socks as well. 16:12, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I've already told you what I think so I'll leave it at that for now. I'm not sure what you having made 150,000 edits and being on Wikipedia for 10 years has got to do with anything either.Levelledout (talk) 16:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
You "think" almost everyone who has supported the topic ban is involved in the content dispute? Please don't hazard tendentious guesses about things that could be checked with a little research. Here, I'll help you with one item: I for my part have barely heard of e-cigarettes. I'm supporting the topic ban because I can recognize advocacy, at least when it's as obvious as this. Bishonen | talk 12:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC).
I did not do an in depth analysis before I posted of course, nor can you reasonably expect me to before every post. But I do know that of the posters above QuackGuru (the proposer of the ban) and Doc James are highly involved and Cloudjpk, CFCF and Jytdog have all contributed to e-cig articles and have tended to be on the opposing side of the content dispute to Albino Ferret.Levelledout (talk) 13:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes, actually, we can expect you to do some due diligence before you make claims about other editors' motivations. BMK (talk) 16:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
As I said clearly enough for you to understand I knew with a reasonable degree of certainty that 5/7 editors were involved all along. I thought it was probably 6/7, hence "almost all" which was an approximation. Nobody was mentioned personally and it turned out to be 5/7. Big deal. Can we move on from this nonsense now please?Levelledout (talk) 21:33, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
If it's "nonsense", it your nonsense, not mine. Are all the supporting editors below also sworn enemies of AlbinoFerret? If not, doesn't that change your !vote, since it was based on the supposed involvement of the supporting editors? And since you're on the other side of the debate as an SPA, should we discount your !vote as you would like us to discount those editors above who you say are involved?

No, what was nonsense was your initial comment, which appears to me to have been disingenuous. BMK (talk) 23:44, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Despite the fact that you obviously do not accept this, I am entitled to my original opinion. I stand by it and with all due respect, do not care what you think.Levelledout (talk) 00:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
hatting discussion no longer relevant with indef blocking of sock BMK (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

comment removed per WP:EVADE

    • @InfiniteBratwurst: So, you took your 56 edits and your vast 9 weeks of Wikipedia experience and went looking into other editor's block logs in order to come here, !vote oppose, and poison some wells with the dirty little secrets you uncovered there? (How does an editor with 56 edits find out about block logs, anyway? I was here for quite a while before I heard about them.) You complain that the editors supporting the topic ban are involved in a content dispute with AF, but you don't mention that the article you have edited the most. with more than double the edits of the next-most article, is Safety of electronic cigarettes, that its talk page is the one you've edited the most, the seoncd-most being Talk:Electronic cigarette -- but I assume you'll tell us that, unlike the other editors commenting here, you are uninvolved, you are totally neutral, and your vote is in no way influenced by your personal views. Everyone else's is, of course, but not yours. BMK (talk) 03:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
      • comment removed per WP:EVADE
        • Wow!!!! 9 weeks here, less than 60 edits, and you cite an obscure essay from Meta. The closing admin should note with pride what an extremely knowledgeable newbie InfiniteBratwurst is!!!! BMK (talk) 12:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
          • comment removed per WP:EVADE
            • Oh, I think pointing out your very interesting, if short, history is quite constructive indeed. BMK (talk) 16:03, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
              • User:Beyond My Ken, InfiniteBratwurst is actually CheesyAppleFlake. See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive864#User:CheesyAppleFlake. QuackGuru (talk) 17:58, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
                • comment removed per WP:EVADE
                  • QuackGuru if there is a case to be made, please make it at WP:SPI and post here. Otherwise please don't add distraction. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 19:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
              • BMK, you've been around since 2009 (aren't you an admin, and weren't you an Arb?) At any rate why are you still this rankly clueless about commenting on content not contributors? Is NPA just deprecated? You've done this before [42] -- what is your problem? You know very well that some editors make CLEANSTART accounts and that is their business. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 12:27, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
                • @Middle8. Wrong on every count. I've had an account here since June 2005, started editing shortly before that as an IP (see this for the thumbnail of my history). I've never been an admin (perish the thought!), don't want to be an admin, will almost uncertainly never be an admin, and would be an absolutely lousy admin if someone forced me to do it. And, of course, I've never been an Arbitrator. I have no idea who you are thinking of, but it ain't me.

                  Comment on content, not contributors? Sure, in general, great concept, but this is the place where the community examines behavior, and not just the behavior of the subject of the thread. If someone pops up to comment with an editing history that looks very much like they're a SPA, or have a COI, edit with a distinct POV to push, are someone's sock, or were canvassed on- or off-Wiki to participate, those are facts that need to be brought forward, because they can (and should!) mitigate the value of that user's comment. It's completely valid to point that stuff out, and as long as people continue to take advantage of Wikipedia to promote whatever it is they're promoting, whether or not they're paid for it, I'm going to keep pointing it out. BMK (talk) 01:42, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

                • BTW WP:CLEANSTART may be one of the most abused Wikipedia policies around. Any user who is making a clean start should be obligated to say so when questioned with good reason about their editing, and to report to a CU of their choice the name of their previous account to be checked to be sure they aren't evading a block or are a sockpuppet of a banned editor. A clean start should never be a license for serial misbehavior, which is what I'm afraid it most probably is utilized for. BMK (talk) 02:58, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
                  I must have you confused with some other editor, sorry. Yes, an editor's history matters to an extent if counting !votes, but otherwise their comments rise or fall on the merits. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 04:25, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support Whatever good AlbinoFerret does tending the electronic cigarette articles is outweighed by the persistent puffing-up of e-cigs as safer than apple pie. Since September 2014, AF has made 2000 talk page comments at the three e-cig articles, and 250 comments here at ANI—it's time to look for other topics. Johnuniq (talk) 07:01, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Please provide the diffs where I said they are safe as apple pie or any place where I said they were completely safe. As for edit counts, anyone who looks at the logs knows I rarely make complete edits, I always correct them or add to them, on average taking 4 edits to make a comment. I have tried to preview more, but total edits show nothing. AlbinoFerret 15:52, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Send to ArbCom - This has been going on from time to time for months. This is the sort of content dispute compounded by conduct issues (tendentious editing) for which a full evidentiary hearing by ArbCom works better than letting the loudest editors at a noticeboard establish consensus. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Robert McClenon i hear you that this may end up at Arbcom but that is a step of last resort. The way this place is set up we are meant to handle what we can at lower levels. I think there is a reasonable case for a topic ban for Albino - this is not about "loudest" but rather based on a clear focus on the behavior of one user. Focus (hard to maintain here, I know) is essential. Please reconsider. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 12:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support (Disclosure: AF has supported sanctions against me in another ongoing RFc. But I have supported a topic ban for AF on this topic on several previous occasions). The problem here is that many of the editors on this article are here to advocate for electronic cigarettes rather than being here to build an encyclopedia. I think AF is basically a good guy, but it is not healthy for the encyclopedia to have editors who spend 8 or more hours a day focused on making sure that a single article projects a specific POV. I'll add that I would support a similar topic ban for any editor for whom edits to electronic cigarette articles comprise more than 60% of their total edits over the last 3 months. Its not personal, its just that this article has attracted too many editors who are there to promote a specific POV. Formerly 98 (talk) 15:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose per the reasons stated by Levelledout. This is part content dispute and part piling on by those with a particular POV. -- WV 15:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Not involved in the articles themselves or the content dispute aside from commenting on a few posts brought to WP:RSN. I wouldn't suggest any longer than a year for a ban though as it's generally better to give people a chance. The idea that this is just a content dispute so the behavior issues should be ignored is extremely disingenuous. There are also involved editors here who oppose the ban on grounds of it being a "content dispute", but behavior problems are behavior problems whether there is a content dispute or not. It's apparent there is a problem here with AF considering how much they focus on the topic. One could argue whether they fit the criteria of an WP:SPA or not with brief edits in a couple other articles, but there is definitely advocacy apparent here. Uninvolved editors here are seeing that problem, so I'd highly suggest weighing that when determining community consensus. I do agree with Robert McClenon that the topic will probably need to be considered at ArbCom at some point, but this is one user that keeps coming up and seems like it could be handled here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Very weak support There are probably enough behavioral problems amongst many editors that an arbitration case would be the best way to settle this. Otherwise, I think a topic ban is an acceptable bandaid, though I'd argue for a shorter duration, like 6 months, and revisit a more long term solution if the behavior resumes. AniMate 20:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support a topic ban of one year for Albino Ferret from discussing the subject of Electronic cigarettes on any page in the English Wikipedia. The reason is largely the one given by Bishonen (overly intense advocacy). Possibly one or more other users will need a topic ban too. Cardamon (talk) 22:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban of 3 months (preferred) or 1 year from articles on electronic cigarettes, broadly construed, but not indefinite. AF shows some signs of wanting to edit other articles, let's see some evidence of constructive contributions outside this topic area. Guy (Help!) 23:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - This is clearly a content dispute with both sides unwilling to reach a compromise. The "evidence" presented by QuackGuru isn't very strong. One could also take Bishonen's argument of WP:ADVOCACY and apply it to QuackGuru, since his recent contributions suggest that he has been engaging in a campaign unfavorable to e-cigarettes. As far as I can tell, none of the diffs violate any of Wikipedia's policies. I do see a strong case for banning QuackGuru though: This comment by QG is clearly targeted against AF's personal life, and the edit summary is not just inappropriate, but also inexplicably cruel and disgusting. -A1candidate 11:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
!vote above doesn't deal with Albino's behavior but rather attempts to focus on QG's- classic rhetorical move. This is a proposal about Albino's long term disruptive behavior as evidenced in the prior ANI (which lost focus) and additional diffs above. Jytdog (talk) 12:17, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
None of the diffs presented violate any of WP's policies, as far as I can tell. -A1candidate 13:28, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
again hatting squabble between 2 main antagonists here Jytdog (talk) 03:09, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
No, this is not clearly a content dispute as A1candidate suggests. A1candidate is repeatedly making blanket reverts of reputable organizations and reviews.[43][44] This disruption of blanket reverts by A1candidate should not be allowed to continue. A1candidate, I recommend you take a voluntary short-term topic ban from the page. A1candidate, are you going to continue make blanket reverts? QuackGuru (talk) 17:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
One might want to look at the size of the edits (18,711 characters) trying to edit in sources that were the topic of a (still ongoing) RFC. That at the time was almost 1/2 the size of the existing page. The comments on the edits were directing people to the talk pages. This wasnt blanket removal, this was a few editors (QuackGuru, CFCF, and Cloudjpk) trying to force a mammoth edit on the page during a discussion of the sources used. Looking at the history makes it all the more clear. This is purely a content dispute. Where one side wants to discuss things, and others just want to get it in. AlbinoFerret 18:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Remember the talk page discussion? I wrote "User:AlbinoFerret, you were asked "Are there issues with the sources or the summary of said sources?" So far you have not specifically explained which new sources are a concern to justify your blanket revert and there is a clear consensus for the the positions of the organisations."[45] You repeatedly deleted a number of sources including reviews without any logical reason. User:AlbinoFerret, do you agree you are going to stop making blanket reverts? QuackGuru (talk) 18:44, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
@QuackGuru, please stop making these baseless accusations against me. I'm surprised that you would want to enforce a "voluntary short-term topic ban" on me, given that I have made minimal contributions to this the article so I am not sure what that would achieve. -A1candidate 18:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • @QuackGuru, This is a constant problem, WP:IDHT. I answered you why I thought a press release was not usable. link and that sources that are WP:Tertiary should not be used for medical content. These sources (the subject of your second set of diffs) were already on a sister page, Positions of medical organizations regarding electronic cigarettes. Where they are appropriate, this isnt removing content and blocking, but a discussion on the location WP:ONUS. This is a fine point of WP, and I dont think you get. Your link to a blanket revert is part of the mammoth edit I posted on a reply ago, You made an almost 20000 character edit to a controversial page with no discussion, after planning it for almost a month in a sandbox without discussing it at any time. Again taking WP:Tertiary sources from the sister page, Positions of medical organizations regarding electronic cigarettes. Where they have never been removed. If you look in the edit comments, you will see I quoted WP:CAUTIOUS and noted that no discussions have happened. There is even a talk page section started by me on the topic. AlbinoFerret 19:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban having reviewed this whole mess over the last half hour. My only 'involvement' with e-cigarettes was thinking someone's looked hilarious at Wikimedia DC's GLAM bootcamp. As is generally the case with tbans, Albino would still be able to raise the situation before arbcom if desired. I don't think a time limit has a purpose since plenty of people just take an editing vacation until their tban expires and come back just as problematic as they were before, but AF could appeal it in the future after spending time productively contributing elsewhere on WP. Kevin Gorman (talk) 13:30, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Good point. I agree, indef with the option to appeal is better. Bishonen | talk 13:46, 7 March 2015 (UTC).
  • Could you show me a single diff (as presented by QuackGuru) that actually violated an established guideline? -A1candidate 13:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Just because two people are involved in a battle doesn't make both of them are aggressors. I do not see any single edit by AF violating a policy or guideline. -A1candidate 14:43, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose witchhunts and general attempts to silence opponenets. Someone needs to stand up to this nonsense.Two kinds of porkMakin'Bacon 16:10, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
distraction; not focused on Albino's behavior. Jytdog (talk) 16:59, 7 March 2015 (UTC) (striking, should not be commenting like this. Jytdog (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC))
How is resisting the POV-pushing by QuackGuru a form of advocacy? Please explain. -A1candidate 14:49, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban of at least a year. I am uninvolved with the topic. To the best of my recollection, I have never edited anything to do with electronic cigarettes, but I can recognize disruptive behavior in support of a POV when I see it. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 18:42, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I'm not convinced there have been any policy violations, or BF editing, or PAs that would constitute firm measures for behavioral issues. I see disagreement, and certainly hope disagreement or an opposing view doesn't warrant a block or ban these days. AtsmeConsult 23:29, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
the difs for long term behavioral issues are clear. I do understand, Atsme, why you be sympathetic to someone opposing the application of MEDRS, since you would support having positive content on the cancer-fighting powers of amygdalin in WP, using sources like naturalnews, per this. You, at least have been doing that only on Talk, and have not been editing warring over it for months now, as Albino has. Jytdog (talk) 02:43, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
The only warring originates with you Jytdog, as demonstrated by your behavior here and now with a PA against me for expressing an opinion where I'm supposed to be expressing an opinion. Unfortunately, your biotech POV is imposed on editors wherever you go. Please try to understand WP:FRINGE is a guideline, not a policy. AtsmeConsult 13:04, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support for the same reasons as the last forty-'leven times this topic-ban proposal has come up. Closing admin should pay careful attention to whether some of these !votes are from SPAs or near-SPAs and are possibly voting on subject matter as opposed to behavior. Zad68 03:17, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support, perhaps a month, then another chance on a short leash. Per this and others, does not (or will not) understand MEDRS; should by now. Not the only disruptive party but disruptive nonetheless. (Note also QuackGuru's repugnant slur against AF, where he accused AF of lying about their disability. Should be an instant block for that, lengthened by aggravating circumstances: block log, experience). Oppose> - Looks mainly like a content dispute to me, with the conduct issues on both sides -- no way can just one side of the e-cig wars could be accused of WP:OWN and WP:TE. And lest process trump content, from what I can see the dangers are being exaggerated unduly and relative to conventional cigarettes by QuackGuru et al., and AlbinoFerret and others are correct in trying to limit this POV-pushing. No, I don't like some of AlbinoFerret's exaggerations and misunderstandings of policy here (re which e.g. Jytdog has commented). But However, I see that at least two of the editors calling for a topic ban (and among the quickest to do so) are also heavily involved in the impasse/polarization in this topic area. All the kettles need to simmer down; suggest 1RR/week for all concerned or something like that. Mentorship/probation for AlbinoFerret on the stuff mentioned (especially MEDRS and WP:OPPONENT) when they come back. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 15:25, 8 March 2015 (UTC) changed !vote, added a bit 21:10, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Middle 8 this thread is focused on AlbinoFerrets' behavior. Things like this end up at Arbcom when the community fails to manage them. The most common way the community fails is that it loses focus when discussing complex issues or disputes. (you have seen that happen, as when you brought an RfC/U against Quackguru). There is no doubt that AlbinoFerret has been a key participant in the longterm battleground. Many, many diffs showing that. The community can handle disputes like this, if it focuses. If you want to start a thread on some other individual involved, please do so. But please do not distract from the issue at hand. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 16:01, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
I understand what you're saying, Jytdog. (And it's interesting how many of the editors who contributed so tenaciously to the loss of focus in the QG RfC are suddenly so able to stay focused on AF, yet lose focus when it comes to QG. One would almost think there was systemic bias afoot.) Looking at the merits: Which diffs? Going from QG's thread-starter, the two links to ANI threads are weak [46][47] Re QG's other diffs: Just because AF removes stuff QG added is not prima facie evidence of misconduct -- far from it; I see a lot of UNDUE. AF's removing the WMA however is not good. And I see a pattern of OWN in both QG and AF, worse in QG. Is that it? Where can I find a good, concise summary of the most obvious diffs? Or maybe you or someone could just paste in the five worst ones? --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 16:36, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
update: OK, although the evidence in the thread-starter first ANI is weak, I see more that you and others provided in the comments (yours: scrolling to: "Support topic ban - Albino has gone on a tear now..."). Having a look now. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 19:57, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Jytdog, your example (of AF writing about pharma companies lobbying to have e-cigs treated as medical devices) would indeed be a compelling instance of twisting a source [48] (just as Mallexikon showed QG did with GERAC, which you were one of the only editors to grok). Except: AF explains [49] (supported with diffs) that the passage they wrote was originally sourced to a different source [50] that the passage indeed summarized accurately. (I don't care for his ABF-ing and calling your characterization "twisting" of what happened, but they wouldn't be the first to run hot under pressure on a drama board.) I'll keep looking. If there's a smoking gun -- besides fighting over including WMA, which is bad, but alone not imo worth a ban either -- I'm not seeing it. I see general TE (which is at least as bad with QG); I don't see it as over the top: is this a situation like QG where those who know AF well gnash their teeth in frustration but have so far failed to build a strong case? If not, can you help, and point me to the good evidence? It's a lot to go through. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 20:16, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Thanks for considering more carefully. QG's first link above - Albino's contribs, demonstrate he is a SPA on e-cigarettes; this is not ambiguous. Per WP:SPA, SPA editors are often agenda-driven. The next link is the old ANI case, and I see you are digging through that. I'll just pick one diff from there (of what are many) namely this, where AF's edit notes was "emove older study that newer ones find answers to", but what we did, was remove a source (a review of the literature) that described the lack of good evidence for harm reduction and risks of e-cigs, dated 2013, and moving up 2 practice guidelines, one dated 2014 and the other dated 2013, which each recommend e-cigs for harm reduction. (note he left the 2013 ref... why, in his reasoning?) but in any case these are different kinds of sources (and there has been tension in project Medicine about how to WEIGHT practice guidelines vs reviews of the evidence) and they don't cancel each other out. The reasoning was bogus or incompetent, but the effect was to eliminate what AF calls "speculation" about the risks. That is the crux of his agenda in those articles. That ANI case was back in November. If you look at the next difs provided by QG, you will see that agenda being enacted in each edit. Using article-comment notation to hide the "Environmental effects" section (mostly about risks) with edit note that "it is trivia"' removing facts about risks stated in WP's voice on the basis that they must be attributed (that is how pejoratively he has come to view discussion of risks - that it is so perjorative that it must be attributed)... etc. He is a disruptive and persistent presence. Hence the topic ban. Which looks like it will succeed, so far. I think it is objectively on point. Jytdog (talk) 20:31, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
yeah the thing about lobbying was really frustrating. [[51] his original source] was an opinion piece and of course we prefer straight reporting over opinion pieces (he could have cited the opinion piece, attributing it, yes). but what we really got my goat was that the NYT reporting (the more reliable source) was unambiguous in emphasizing the victory of the e-cig lobbyists. so twisted. and adding the rhetorically self-righteous stuff about the COI of pharma with their lobbyists... when all lobbyists are nakedly self-interested. just... argh. on that whole thing. But of a piece with the pattern of relentless pro-e-cigarette editing. its the pattern. Jytdog (talk) 20:35, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
OK, AF clearly doesn't/can't/won't grok MEDRS and there is a pattern. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 20:52, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
side discussion that went sideways and has become distracting in-fighting Jytdog (talk) 03:06, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Middle_8 Am I perfect, No. Have I made mistakes, yes. Have I learned from them, I think I have. What you have here is two examples Jtydog has found. What he doesnt have is a pattern of me repeating those mistakes. The first diff is from October 2014, I had taken almost a year off from editing wikipedia, and almost 6 years since I was active. I had never editied a page with medical rules. I made a mistake and replaced a source and edited out a comment. I learned from that experience and have not done that again. As for using WP:TRIVIA In November of that year, well the reason Jtydog can find it so quick is he was the one who misused it on me first. Was it a mistake to not research its use first? Yes, have I done the same things again? No. AlbinoFerret 23:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
But there is a pattern, cf. the diffs QG has at the top, and they're not only undue weight (though I agree this has been a problem and commend you for pushing back, within reason). QG's first diff after "AlbinoFerret deleted a number of reliable sources": [52]; those are MEDRS, and you really should know that by now. Sorry, but MEDRS is one thing I don't IAR on. Take a break (short I hope) and come back, and grok MEDRS and try to take to WP:OPPONENT to heart and lung. Wishing you well. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 00:01, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Middle_8 You may want to look closely at the World Lung Federation, at the top of the page is a gold bar clearly labelling it a press release. I am not the only editor that was against using WP:Tertiary sources for medical claims. There is even a ongoing RFC on the subject. Until that edit they had only been used on the Positions of medical organizations regarding electronic cigarettes sister page, both of which were one time part of the Health section of Electronic cigarette, split off at the same time by Doc James. Up until QG's edit there was a defacto standard/agreement of only using reviews for medical claims on e-cig pages (read the first link), thats why the RFC was started. AlbinoFerret 00:30, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
There NEVER was a consensus to use only using reviews for medical claims on e-cig pages. We don't have different rules for e-cig pages. There is a long standing WP:CON to include other sources including WHO, the US Food and Drug Administration, and the World Lung Foundation. See Electronic_cigarette#Position_of_medical_organizations. Also see Electronic_cigarette#Harm_reduction for other sources such as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) that are not reviews. User:AlbinoFerret, claiming that only reviews can be used for medical claims runs against WP:MEDORG. The RfC resulted in WP:SNOW. See Talk:Safety_of_electronic_cigarettes#Positions.
You also deleted other sources including a formal policy statement. After you could not delete the reliable source you then added context that was inappropriate.[53][54][55] See Talk:Safety_of_electronic_cigarettes/Archive_1#Original_research_2. You, User:KimDabelsteinPetersen, and User:Levelledout appeared to be against using the formal policy statement written in a peer-reviewed journal for medical claims. See Talk:Electronic_cigarette/Archive_21#Policy_Statement_from_the_American_Association_for_Cancer_Research_and_the_American_Society_of_Clinical_Oncology. Your last edit to the safety page was to delete even more sources including a number of reviews. So what is your reason to make a full revert back to an old version while delete a number of sources including reviews? We want to know the WP:TRUTH. QuackGuru (talk) 02:15, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
The facts are clear as can be, if anyone looks at the article when it was copied over from the Electronic cigarette article. Before you started editing it on your own because of the activity on the main page kept us busy. You started adding non review quality sources for medical claims. You will notice that reviews and formal policy statements in peer reviewed journals (review quality) are all that existed. AlbinoFerret 02:51, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Let's review according to your diff:
See WHO:
See US Food and Drug Administration (FDA):
See The UK National Health Service
These sources are not reviews but they are reliable according to WP:MEDORG. QuackGuru (talk) 03:01, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support indefinite topic ban from e-cig related articles. Per Bishonen, I see obvious advocacy. Assuming good faith, I feel that both the articles and AF would benefit from him spending his wiki-time on other topics for the foreseeable future. --RexxS (talk) 00:57, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose action against AlbinoFerret or QuackGuru via ANI - This should go to Arbcom. Considering the e-cigarette dispute keeps popping up at ANI and has apparently gone on for so long now, and also considering there have been concerns raised regarding conduct of multiple users, this should go to arbcom where evidence can be carefully evaluated by those uninvolved. Seems binding solutions are needed at e-cegarette.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 23:38, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
This thread is focused on AlbinoFerret's behavior. We can manage this at ANI if people bring clear cases and responders focus on the question at hand. Here, it is AF's behavior. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 03:08, 10 March 2015 (UTC) (striking, should not be commenting like this. Jytdog (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC))
  • Procedural oppose There are two main culprits in this current shitstorm. If the community lacks the cojones to sanction QG, who is the main culprit, and is content to let him off with a weak "warning" (how many warnings is that now?) it is against natural justice to sanction AF. I tend to agree with the view that arbitration will be the way forward here. A lynch mob at AN/I probably won't do it on this occasion. --John (talk) 07:10, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Question: I see several people opposing a topic ban on the ground that the whole QuackGuru – AlbinoFerret thing should go to RFAR instead. Is anybody actually planning or working on an RFAR submission? John, BoboMeowCat, Robert McClenon, for instance? This question is not meant as criticism, as nobody is obliged to spend time on anything on Wikipedia beyond what they want to, and filing RFAR's is a bugger, with the diffs and so on. Just, it would be convenient to know, and may affect the outcome of this thread. Bishonen | talk 12:09, 10 March 2015 (UTC).
I have the same question, and I don't think any of the "procedural opposers" have any intention of filing on ArbCom. I do not think this issue is a QG/AF issue, but rather the immensely problematic editing history of AlbinoFerret, whose entire edit history since September 2014 is the most egregious example of relentless disruptive WP:SPA advocacy I have ever seen on Wikipedia. Softlavender (talk) 03:03, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban for at least six months to a year. His edits and endless disruptive discussions on the subject are simply far too POV and tendentious, disrupting the progress of the entire subject and the articles it encompasses. It does seem like blatant advocacy. Softlavender (talk) 12:21, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose This is a draconian solution at this point - especially since the air is rather full of smog because of misbehaviour by QG at this point. Suggest that such issues at that point be addressed to the Arbitration Committee, which will slow down everything in all likelihood. Collect (talk) 12:57, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
The diffs are all presented and the question is clear, with respect to AlbinoFerret. Please take the time to focus on AF's behavior, which is the topic of this discussion. Thanks. There is a separate (malformed) section for QG above. Jytdog (talk) 14:40, 10 March 2015 (UTC) (striking, should not be commenting like this. Jytdog (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC))
  • (Non-administrator comment) I am heavily involved in the topic at hand having spent a long time editing the e-cigarette article pretty heavily and having clashed with QG and AF. I think in the case of both editors the battleground that e-cig has become has brought out a negative side to their WP editing, in QG this is found in WP:OWN and IDHT, in AF it's more ADVOCACY and leaning towards SPA as it becomes more and more a focus of attention. The large proportion of AF's edits being on the Talk pages of e-cig articles rather than the article themselves reflects, in my eyes, his attempt to bring some form of consensus to article improvements rather than riding roughshod over the opinions and policies of WP. A topic ban, in the short term, may make things better. I certainly think AF taking a vacation from the article may be good for AF's stress levels. But the root problem is that e-cig, and the daughter articles, are battlegrounds where a lot of people are shouting, and nobody's [well not quite nobody] listening. I don't know whether ArbCom can do something to help in this matter but banning AF from the page will not reduce the amount of problems there. SPACKlick (talk) 12:33, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose per InfiniteBratwurst. I used to be involved, but haven't edited any of the articles in several months. I've been slightly active on their talk pages, though. EllenCT (talk) 19:41, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Infinitebratwurst's !vote was not based on looking at the diffs of AlbinoFerret's behavior and thinking about them in light of PAG, so that !vote should not count for the closer, and neither should this one. Jytdog (talk) 20:07, 11 March 2015 (UTC) (striking, should not be commenting like this. Jytdog (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC))
  • Note. It's been a problem previous times that this has come up that those involved in the dispute separate into obvious camps but are pretty vocal. Out of curiosity I checked the history of the users posting in this section and their edit count on whatever e-cig talk page had the highest edits (doesn't indicate time of involvement):
AlbinoFerret: 1641; QuackGuru: 630; Cloudjpk: Not available but has edited at the article a bit 141.; Doc James: 490; BMK: 0; CFCF: 151; Jytdog: 91; Bishonen: 0; Levelledout: 233; InfiniteBratwurst: 10 (relatively new w/ 77 total edits); Johnuniq: 13; Robert McClenon: 0; Formerly 98: 148; Winkelvi: 0; Kingofaces43: 3 (RFC and RSN post replies); AniMate: 0; Cardamon: 0; JzG: 0 ; A1candidate: 22; Kevin Gorman: 0; Two kinds of pork: 0; Cullen328: 0; Atsme: 0; Zad68: 203; Middle 8: 0; RexxS: 0; BoboMeowCat: 0; John: 0; Softlavender: 0; Collect: 0; EllenCT: 84.
Obviously I'm not suggesting to ignore those involved, but I always lose track of who's actually been involved in the article whenever this comes up here, at RSN, etc. Figured it might be helpful for others trying gauge the situation too. If not, just more text and numbers for the wall. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:25, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Here's the same data presented in a different way:
BMK (talk) 22:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, I wanted to try to keep it as condensed as possible, but I normally don't tinker with tables here, so I didn't think of that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:56, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Wonder why you left Cloudjpk's data out? They have 112 edits (80.576% of mainspace edits) to e-cig articles and 176 edits (100% of talk space edits) to those articles talks. In total 83.965% of Cloudjpk's edits have been to e-cigarette articles. Significantly more than even AlbinoFerret. SPACKlick (talk) 11:17, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
The edit count cool was acting really wonky when I tried to search Cloudjpk's history. It essentially said the user had no edits whatsoever yesterday, which I knew was incorrect. Today it looks like it is working now. No idea what causes that, but I've heard to tool can act funny sometimes. I've updated the info on my post and made the minor change to BMK's table as well. Kingofaces43 (talk) 12:25, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
I am involved in the articles, but not to the extent the raw numbers show. On average it takes 4 or more edits on a comment for me to get it right. I seldom make a perfect edit or comment and leave. Any view of the histories will show this. I think that numbers only tell part of the story. AlbinoFerret 22:58, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
You are not "involved" in the articles, you are ***INVOLVED*** with the articles. Articles on e-cigarettes make up the first (Electronic cigarette - 466 edits, 55.47% of your total article edits), second (Safety of electronic cigarettes - 82 edits, 9.7%} and fifth (Legal status of electronic cigarettes - 23 edits, 2.7%) in the list of articles you've edited most, making up a total of 67.97% of your article edits. The list of article talk pages you've edited has Talk:Electronic cigarette as #1, with 1641 edits, 69.35% of your talk page edits, Talk:Safety of electronic cigarettes as #2 (293, 12.38%), Talk:Legal status of electronic cigarettes as #5 (72, 3.04%), for a total of 85.08% of your talk page edits (that includes 7 other edits on the subject in archives.)

These numbers -- 67.07% of article edits and 85.08% of article talk page edits -- most certainly live in SPA territory. It's clear what subject you're here to edit, and crystal what your position is on it. That's the "obvious advocacy" that several very experienced editors have commented on, and that's why a topic ban is appropriate. BMK (talk) 01:04, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with your label as a SPA. I tend to post more to articles I'm interested in, nothing strange there. Your raw numbers tell nothing and I disagree with the spin. I would also like to point out that slightly over half of my editing is on talk pages. Discussing and trying to make the articles better. If you take into account the number of edits I make to a specific edit or comment, it isnt that large. You seem to have some attraction to this section, and seem to post an awful lot here. AlbinoFerret 01:25, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
My calculations show that AlbinoFerret has made over 2890 edits on the topic of e-cigs to talk pages (or noticeboards) since 30 September 2014—over 17 talk-page edits per day for 164 days. That is beyond enthusiasm and is unhealthy for other editors, particularly in a contentious topic. Johnuniq (talk) 01:30, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
How many of those were to the same comment or edit? How many editors you are comparing me to are disabled and sit at their computer because they cant easily leave the house? AlbinoFerret 01:31, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
@AlbinoFerret: If QuackGuru cannot, and should not, bring up your physical status in his arguments, then you, also, should not cite it as a mitigating factor -- not that it makes any difference, really. Presumably you have the same difficulties while editing an article or talk page on e-cigarettes as you do when editing an article or talk page on some other subject, so the percentages I cited above, which are not "raw numbers" -- 67.07% of article edits and 85.08% of article talk page edits on the subject of electronic cigarettes -- have nothing whatsoever to do with your physical state. Please don't bring up that red herring again. BMK (talk) 02:20, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Thats wrong, QuackGuru made harassing statements about my disability. But its a fact of life, one you obviously dont want discussed because it shows that your numbers have no basis for comparison. What you have are large numbers and innuendo. Please point me to the policy or guideline that speaks on the number of posts one is allowed to make.
They are raw numbers because they dont take into account the number of edits I make to the same comment or edit. Your comments are bordering very close on harassment if not going over the line by trying to say that my physical status has no bearing on my editing here. It is something you cant possibly have knowledge of.
Number of posts do not equal advocacy. AlbinoFerret 02:37, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Do you not understand percentages? Unless you edit e-cig articles differently than you edit all other articles, the numbers are not raw, they're relative to your overall output. BMK (talk) 04:43, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Since you ignored this, I will ask a second time. Please point me to the policy or guideline that speaks on the number of posts one is allowed to make. Number of posts do not equal advocacy WP:ADVOCACY neither do percentages. AlbinoFerret 12:36, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Actually, percentages are a good measure of advocacy (and SPA) by showing that an editor is focusing too much on one topic. Using a percentage would account for your tendency to make copy edits and simply show what area you edit the most relative to your total contributions here. There's really no arguing with those numbers. Physical disability should be playing no role in this specific conversation because it should not be making you focus so much on one topic like this. It's one thing to have a lot of time available (which we've discussed on my talk page), but it's that your time is concentrated into one area that is the problem people have repeatedly brought up here. Maybe you're not seeing that, but BMK is actually being pretty well reasoned above. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
I see that I am editing an article that is interesting to me, and that some people want me to edit other articles more. Where might I find the policy or guideline that says you must edit x number of articles? I dont think editing articles that dont intrest me is something that should be forced. When I find a subject I find interesting, I edit the article. But I think you are misapplying advocacy. Advocacy isnt posting to much to one article. AlbinoFerret 19:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Gimme a break, AlbinoFerret. A lot of my edits consist of correcting my own typos or copy editing my own comments to make my thoughts clearer. That is common. But any objective uninvolved editor can look at the totality of my edits, and they will conclude that I am a generalist editor. Then, they can look at the totality of your edits, and they will see with crystal clarity that you are here to advance a certain point of view about e-cigarettes. Please do not try to deny what is obvious to any intelligent objective person. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:53, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

No, they show I post a lot. I have been editing Bitcoin for a month and have made 216 edits to the page and talk page. About 7 a day, when I am interested in a topic, I post and discuss it and try and improve the article. I am not here to advance a specific point of view on e-cigarettes, and the number of posts doesnt prove that. (added afterwards - This no intelligent person is starting to sound like No True Scotsman argument) AlbinoFerret 02:58, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm really not interested in marginal topics like e-cigarettes and bitcoins, so I don't feel like reading this megillah. Can you show me a link where QuackGuru harassed you about your stated handicap? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:04, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Since you asked, its easly found under his topic with plenty of discussion on the topic, but you can find it here. AlbinoFerret 03:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
@Bugs: See the section above this. My synopsis: QuackGuru make a remark that he absolutely shouldn't have, was roundly criticized for it by editors from all sides, and got warned by an admin who told him if he did it again he'd be blocked. The End.

Oh, wait a minute... the e-cig and fringe science advocates seized on it as a sideshow to distract everyone from the proposed topic ban against AlbinoFerret, inserted a new section calling for QuackGuru to be blocked above the topic-ban section, out of chronological order (so innocent editors would come across it first) and have been trying their best ever since to whip up a frenzy to block QG, not only because he is one of the stalwart editors preventing fringe science from infecting WP, but because it helps keep people from focusing on the topic ban necessary to prevent AlbinoFerret from continuing his advocacy for e-cigarettes. Up there (the section above) is a sideshow, down here is the real deal. BMK (talk) 04:51, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

QuackGuru's comment was rude and condescending, and shouldn't have been said. But it's possible he's thinking back on some users we've had who claimed to be handicapped (ItsLassieTime comes to mind) and it was one of that prolific sockpuppeteer's many lies. So it's not unreasonable to have suspicions like that. But it's best to keep those suspicions to oneself until or if an appropriate time arises. However, disabled users shouldn't expect any special treatment, and in fact they probably ought not even bring up the subject. "TMI". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:02, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it's better for people to keep unsavory information like that in the closet.[sarcasm] Or, wild idea, we could afford people with disabilities reasonable accommodations (as is done in many civilized places to varying degrees) and not be dicks to them, including not engaging in "disability policing". --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 12:00, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
It's not about keeping "unsavory" information "in the closet". It's about not using one's handicap as an excuse. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:52, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
If I recall correctly, AlbinoFerret didn't bring up his disability in such a way as to suggest he should be excused for anything. If I recall correctly, QC did bring up AFs disability, and did it in a manner that was intended to discredit AF, distract, and wave a red herring like a giant flag at a sporting event. -- WV 17:59, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm not saying that, that's just an example or scenario that can happen and it's why users ought not be bragging/complaining about their handicaps. QG seems to have seen something in Ferret's comments that suggested he might not actually be handicapped, and the memories of abusive users like ItsLassieTime may have overwhelmed QG's good sense at that point. There are better ways to explore that question than QG did. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:05, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
I saw what happened when it happened. QG did it to discredit AF. What's more, AF has never "bragged" about having a disability. It doesn't matter what QG saw/thought/or had a memory of. His comments were beyond the pale and WAY out of line. -- WV 18:23, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Actually, AF has been mentioning their disability in what appears to be justification for the editing habits not too far above. [56]. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
off-topic discussion of User:QuackGuru; belongs in subsection above
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Oh, wait a minute... the e-cig and fringe science advocates seized on it as a sideshow to distract everyone from the proposed topic ban against AlbinoFerret Have you actually read the discussion above? QG is a problem editor. People seized the discussion of a problem with QG to advocate trying to fix the problem with QG, some people leapt on the one comment (That I personally think should have been a straight 48 hour block but it's now dealt with) Others are discussing his edit history and while there may be some fringe science and e-cig advocates in there, there are also editors who want to see articles present accurate sourced information in readable English rather than garbled walls of repetitive text. The original post was about QG. QG tried to use boomerang to distract from the issue of his own editing behaviour.SPACKlick (talk) 10:09, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
I've concluded that the best way to have any productive discussion of QG's conduct -- or that of any disruptive editor who is perceived as being on the "right" side of content disputes -- is for anybody perceived as being a fringe-sympathizer to refrain from calling for sanctions. (Sorry for shouting in bold itals; I didn't want BMK to feel alone in using that style ;-).) Go ahead and collect diffs and present them; just keep it as uncomplicated, neutrally-presented and red-herring free as possible, and let others decide what to do with it (and needless to say, let someone else initiate the process: this needs to be done properly and not rushed). That will pre-empt the incorrect/disingenuous/GAME-y objection that "it's just fringe-pushers who want him sanctioned".
AFAIK this has never been tried before. There are, IMO/IME, just enough objective editors on WP that some will still look at the evidence fairly and !vote accordingly. And if none do, it can be fairly assumed that it really is only fringe-pushers who want sanctions. In QG's case it has always, from the very beginning, been about 50% perceived-fringe editors and 50% perceived-neutral ones calling for sanctions.
It really is true that the louder perceived-fringers complain, the stronger QG's position becomes, and this will only get worse with time (as will QG's shenanigans as he becomes emboldened: we're already seeing this with five warnings in three months). The community really should have learned this in the past from similarly disruptive/woo-bashing editors (whom I'm not going to mention by name now because they're more or less behaving themselves). The philosophically-inclined should ponder wu wei. --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 13:34, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Just a reminder, this section is about imposing a topic ban on AlbinoFerrett due to his obvious advocacy in the 67.07% of his article edits and 85.08% of article talk page edits on the subject of electronic cigarettes. BMK (talk) 16:42, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Since you ignored this above, I will ask a third time. Please point me to the policy or guideline that speaks on the number of posts one is allowed to make. Number of posts do not equal advocacy WP:ADVOCACY neither do percentages. But since you like percentages, the edits above that QuackGuru posted to try and show a problem account for only 0.02% of my edits to e-cigarette articles.. Those edits were reasoned, discussed, and not the product of advocacy. AlbinoFerret 17:18, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban. Even assuming that AlbinoFerret's conduct is not advocacy, the edits linked above and conduct in this discussion suggest that some distance from this topic may have a healing effect on someone with a lot of energy and dedication to give to editing Wikipedia. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 20:00, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban as a clear example of persistent advocacy. Moral support for whoever has to read all the way to the end of this whole huge mess of a thread. Opabinia regalis (talk) 20:15, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban, for a month at minimum, for advocacy and so that AlbinoFerret can move on from this and contribute to the project. All the time we are wasting arguing here is time that we are not spending helping Wikipedia expand. Based on his actions and the personal attacks made over this, I don't think that AlbinoFerret can contribute in a neutral way to the E-cigarettes article, for now at least. Iwilsonp (talk) 22:54, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose (involved editor) Originally i intended not to comment, because the pile-up of involved editors was already bad. But now it seems that i have to: By !voting to topicbanning AF, on the premises presented, we are creating an environment where editors will not dare to disagree with editors like QG, no matter how wellfounded the arguments to disagree are, or how little QG actually responds to good faith objections on the talk-page. We are also sending the signal that: Do not dare to only edit areas that you are interested in, because you will get banned. Do remember that being an SPA is not against policy, being interested in a topic is also not against policy..... Because no matter how we slice and dice it, the main argument here is not that AF is breaking our editing policies, or his POV, but instead that he is not conforming to some editors view of how multifacetted you must be to pass the bar. This is not the encyclopedia that anyone can edit anymore ... it is the encyclopedia for people who conform to certain characteristics. --Kim D. Petersen 11:40, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
To clarify: I do not see policy violations to back up a ban. --Kim D. Petersen 11:42, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
hatting discussion no longer relevant with indef blocking of sock BMK (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
comment removed per WP:EVADE
You've only been here since December. How do you know anything about someone's alleged "long history" of anything? Unless you used to edit under a different ID? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:50, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
comment removed per WP:EVADE
Since you have no more than 100 edits in your two-plus months here, many of which appear to be advocating for e-cigarettes, I assume the rest of your time here has been to try to figure out how to get rid of a user who stands in your way? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:14, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
comment removed per WP:EVADE
I'll take that as an affirmative. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:22, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
comment removed per WP:EVADE
Keep telling yourself that. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:11, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
comment removed per WP:EVADE
You might check this out There is a bug in the visual editor. One of the reasons I stopped using it was because it was so buggy on my Linux distribution. If you look at the history instead of doing a date to date search, each of those edits comes up with the "Visual editor" tag on the edit comments. There is nothing between those tags, its basically a tag and another closing tag with no text. This is a AGF problem, nothing between the tags, not asking me about it anywhere, and it the result of a bug in the editor, but right away jumping to negative motives. AlbinoFerret 19:35, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Here's something interesting. If we accept for the moment, for the sake of argument, the premise that "involved" editors, from both camps, are too prejudiced to cast a !vote in a neutral fashion, then we should look more closely at the opinions of the presumably uninvolved editors, the ones who have no or very few edits to the e-cig talk page.

As our data source we can Use Kingofaces43 list above, and add to it the four !votes which have been posted since: Mendaliv (0 edits), Opabinia regalis (0), Iwilsonp (0) and Kim D. Petersen (780). We throw out all the high-numbered editors, which leaves us with thisL

  • Oppose - 8, including three based on procedure or venue
  • Support - 15, including one "very weak support"

So of the presumably uninvolved editors who !voted, 65% (15/23) are in favor of a topic ban for AlbinoFerret. If you want to throw out all the editors with any edits at all, that takes away 2 supports and 2 opposes (13/19) for a 68%. True, one of the supports is "very weak", but bear in mind that three of the opposes are based on procedure or venue, and not on the merits of the case. Throw those out (the "very weak" and the procedurals) and you've got 80% (12/15).

So it seems anyway you slice it, the uninvolved editors are in favor of a topic ban for AlbinoFerret.

But what about an overall state of the discussion, counting all editors whether they're involved or not? Then you've got 21 support !votes and 13 oppose !votes. That's a 62% majority in favor of a topic ban for AlbinoFerret, not all that different from the percentage of the uninvolved editors.

Of course, the closing admin -- and I really think it had better be an admin in this case -- doesn't count the votes (or, at least, doesn't just count the votes), they evaluate the strength of the various arguments as well. I'm well aware of that, so there's no need to remind me. But the count is still helpful as it gives a thumbnail representation of the state of play at this moment. BMK (talk) 11:10, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

  • InfiniteBratwurst has been indef blocked as a sockpuppet of FergusM1970. Therefore, these results change:
  • All uninvolved editors: 68% (15/22) in favor of a topic ban for AlbinoFerret
  • All editors commenting: 64% (21/33) in favor of a topic ban for AlbinoFerret
With no new recent comments, I believe it's coming to the point where an uninvolved admin should closely evaluate this sub-thread and determine whether a consensus exists for levying a topic ban concerning electronic cigarettes on AlbinoFerret, due to his obvious advocacy in favor of a pro-e-cig POV. BMK (talk) 19:07, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

There is strong support for a topic ban. Numerous editors support a topic ban for AlbinoFerret. For example, please read the comments above by User:Cloudjpk, User:Doc James, User:CFCF, User:Jytdog, User:Bishonen , User:Johnuniq, User:Formerly 98, User:Cardamon, User:JzG, User:Kevin Gorman, User:Cullen328 User:Zad68, User:RexxS, User:Softlavender, User:Mendaliv. Only a voluntary break from the topic area is against the community consensus. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Proposed topic ban for AlbinoFerret. QuackGuru (talk) 21:32, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

@QuackGuru, You've had your say. Please don't WP:Bludgeon. I took the liberty of removing the <big> tags from your comment. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:39, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Notification. I started an ArbCom discussion since this is going nowhere. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Battleground on e-cig articles. QuackGuru (talk) 23:18, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
  • QuarkGuru archived this sub-thread, but I have re-opened it. Although he started this, it is not his property, and the views of many editors, both pro- and con- have been expressed, and should be evaluated collectively by an admin. Also, QG has a conflict of interest in that he opened an arbitartion request, which is unlikely to be heard as long as these threads are open. BMK (talk) 00:49, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

KimDabelsteinPetersen opposes a topic ban for AlbinoFerret[edit]

Not helpful ~Adjwilley (talk) 04:06, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Of course KimDabelsteinPetersen opposes a topic ban for AlbinoFerret. That's because User:KimDabelsteinPetersen has also made many controversial edits to the safety of electronic cigarettes page. Let's review some of KimDabelsteinPetersen's recent edits.
Revision as of 13:05, 30 January 2015 This edit deleted text and sources from two reputable organisations. See Talk:Safety of electronic cigarettes#Positions. The sources are reliable per WP:MEDORG. See Talk:Safety of electronic cigarettes#Discussion on positions. The sources are reliable per WP:SNOW according to the current discussion.
Revision as of 13:11, 30 January 2015 This edit deleted text and sources from two reputable organisations again.
Revision as of 11:20, 26 January 2015 This edit mainly deleted text from a formal policy statement written in a peer-reviewed journal.
Revision as of 19:20, 7 February 2015 This edit mainly deleted text from a review and text from reputable organizations.
Revision as of 06:27, 25 February 2015 This edit deleted numerous sources, including deleting text and sources from a number reputable organisations and sources from reviews against WP:MEDORG and WP:MEDRS.
Revision as of 10:00, 25 February 2015 This edit deleted numerous sources, including deleting text and sources from a number reputable organisations and sources from reviews against WP:MEDORG and WP:MEDRS again.
Revision as of 22:47, 27 February 2015 This edit deleted numerous sources, including deleting text and sources from a number reputable organisations and sources from reviews against WP:MEDORG and WP:MEDRS again.
Revision as of 23:46, 27 February 2015 This edit deleted numerous sources, including deleting text and sources from a number reputable organisations and sources from reviews against WP:MEDORG and WP:MEDRS again. KimDabelsteinPetersen does not see policy violations to back up a ban. KimDabelsteinPetersen, aren't you also deleting a lot of sources against WP:MEDRS? This diff shows AlbinoFerret is making many counterproductive edits and deleting of a lot of reliable sources. KimDabelsteinPetersen is also deleting a lot of reliable sources which suggests he/she is promoting a certain favorable POV for e-cigs. Should KimDabelsteinPetersen also be topic banned? KimDabelsteinPetersen has earned a topic ban from the e-cig pages IMO. Does the community prefer a topic ban for KimDabelsteinPetersen for 6 months or one year, an indef topic ban, or just a warning or no action? QuackGuru (talk) 20:06, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Can I assume from the title, that is "KimDabelsteinPetersen opposes a topic ban for AlbinoFerret", that the intention is to punish KDP for voting the wrong way by topic banning them? There is no wrongdoing in the diffs you've provided I'm afraid, most of them appear to be reverts on the basis that ongoing talk page discussions, RFCs, have not yet concluded or principles such as WP:BRD, all valid ones of course.Levelledout (talk) 20:50, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
KimDabelsteinPetersen opposes a topic ban for AlbinoFerret because he/she is also making a number of controversial edits, including deleting numerous reliable sources that he thinks was okay to delete at the time. But it is not reasonable to continue to delete pertinent information about of the safety of e-cigarettes. Both KimDabelsteinPetersen and AlbinoFerret are the main problem editors IMO. There is also a discussion at Talk:Safety of electronic cigarettes#Removal of mammoth edit. No reasonable argument has been made to delete so many reliable sources after over a week. QuackGuru (talk) 21:29, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Kim stated her "involvement" at the very beginning of her "oppose". I don't see what's to be gained by this sub-thread. — Ched :  ?  22:14, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Community authorized discretionary sanctions for Electronic cigarette articles[edit]

While the numbers in this discussion are fairly close (19 supports to 13 opposes), I find that there is a consensus to enact community sanctions in this topic area. Both in the supports and the opposes, most editors agree that there is disruption in the e-cig topic area and that something needs to be done about it. The supporters are fairly unified in saying that sanctions are needed to contain the disruption.

The opposers are mostly focused on the fact that they don't feel community sanctions are appropriate to contain the disruption, either because they feel an ArbCom case would be better, or because they would disadvantage established editors, or because they would give admins too much latitude. Given that the vast majority of commenters here feel that there is disruption in the topic area, and that a majority of commenters are in favour of sanctions, the consensus here seems to be to enact the sanctions.

There was some concern about not accepting community sanctions without a "sunset clause". For this reason, I am altering the wording of the sanctions to allow blocks of only up to one year in length. The limit of one year was suggested in the discussion, and is also the same as in ArbCom's discretionary sanctions.

The sanctions to be imposed are as follows:

The community authorizes general sections for all articles related to electronic cigarettes, broadly construed. Any uninvolved administrator may, acting on their own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working within this topic if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Possible sanctions include, but are not limited to: page bans, topic bans, semi-protection, pending changes protection, or blocks of up to one year for any editor so warned. Sanctions issued under this authority must be logged at Wikipedia:General sanctions/Electronic cigarettes. Sanctions may be appealed to the administrator who placed them, the administrators' noticeboard, or the Arbitration Committee.
This wording means for example, that topic bans can be indefinite in length, but blocks can only be for up to one year. If there is anything I have missed in the wording of the sanctions, editors are welcome to discuss it with me on my talk page. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 13:02, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed: The community authorizes discretionary sections for all articles related to electronic cigarettes, broadly construed. Any uninvolved administrator may, acting on their own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working within this topic if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Possible sanctions include, but are not limited to: page banning, topic banning, semi-protection, pending changes protection, or blocking any editor so warned. Sanctions may be appealed to the administrator who placed them, the administrators' noticeboard, or the Arbitration Committee.

  • Support as proposer, and thanks for Hasteur for the verbage. This dispute has devolved, and would benefit from some extra attention to get it sorted out. DS should expedite this process, and, in my mind, is sorely needed. HiDrNick! 20:47, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Does Hasteur support this too? I would think so, given that he edited it for you, but I would like to check. Iwilsonp (talk) 21:47, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
No, no. Sorry, I should have been more clear. I just cribbed his wording from the Gamergate community sanctions. I didn't intend to imply his endorsement. HiDrNick! 21:51, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Well after the fact (no User Pings or talk page notices) Couple points: Make sure there's an appropriate log page to log the warnings/sanctions. Make sure there's a venue for editors to neutrally report what they percieve as violations in the sanctions without calls of ADMIN-shoping. Hasteur (talk) 16:19, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose as this is not the solution to the ongoing deletion of reliable sources. Admins don't need this to topic ban an editor anyhow. QuackGuru (talk) 20:56, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support as proposed, as E-cigs are in any case a contentious enough subject that this kind of dispute is liable to flare up between another few editors (not just QuackGuru and AlbinoFerret) in the future, and this would let an admin deal with it without this sort of mess all over ANI. Iwilsonp (talk) 21:36, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Although I suspect it will end up at WP:RFAR before it's over. — Ched :  ?  22:09, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Unfortunately this is unlikely to lead to anything substantial. There are a number of WP:SPA or near-SPA accounts involved and this would only limit the time needed to address issues, but the problem would still remain. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 22:25, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - The proposed discretionary sanctions could be avoided with an immediate block of QuackGuru for multiple counts of disruptive behavior in the above sections. If discretionary sanctions are authorized, it is likely that QG will look for a new topic area to disrupt and antagonize a new group of editors before being brought back to this noticeboard, as has happened countless times in the past. -A1candidate 22:34, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment We have proof of meat puppetry among these articles. We know that the e-cig manufacturers are unhappy with the medical community's position on the known and unknown health effects and safety of e-cig. One advocacy group has contacted my university to attack me personally. We need to make sure that we uphold high quality sources. Not sure if this will make that easier or harder since some involved are using throw away accounts / SPA. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:37, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Do you have proof that AlbinoFerret, or any of QG's perceived opponents, have engaged in meat puppetry? Most probably not. -A1candidate 22:47, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes User:FergusM1970 linked to his twitter feed which include his efforts at meat puppetry Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:15, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose not sure this will help . Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:40, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Question - I only recall discretionary sanctions being put in place by ArbCom, I can't recall a solo admin or the community doing it. Can someone provide a precedent where the community placed discretionary sanctions on a subject? (Not that the lack of precedent necessarily means it can't be done, but it would certainly make it easier to stand up, should this receive a consensus.) BMK (talk) 00:58, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Sure thing! You're looking for Wikipedia:General_sanctions#Community-authorised_sanctions. HiDrNick! 01:40, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! That was very helpful. BMK (talk) 04:36, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose per CFCF. BMK (talk) 05:54, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - After careful reconsideration of the issue, I am changing my !vote based primarily on the comment of Robert McClenon and some of the information provided by Bishonen. I still believe, though, that a topic ban for AlbinoFerret would be the best first step in guaranteeing that the e-cig articles are balanced and NPOV, which to me is the primary concern, more so than the "atmosphere" of the editing environment. BMK (talk) 23:28, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Question - if editors misbehave despite warnings, then uninvolved admins can sanction them anyway, right? -- so what does this add? Is it a way of saying "don't worry, sanction as needed, it won't be seen as controversial"? --Middle 8 (contribsCOI) 14:20, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Not exactly. For example, without discretionary sanctions (DS), administrators lack the authority to topic ban editors, and may only block editors in a limited set of circumstances outlined in the blocking policy. Once DS are authorized, administrators are given much more latitude to enforce community norms around a particular topic. Furthermore, sanctions placed under DS cannot be undone without a clear community consensus (or a motion of the Arbitration Committee), while ordinary blocks can be lifted by any uninvolved administrator. I think that about sums it up. HiDrNick! 14:36, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Middle 8, for my money the big difference discretionary sanctions make is that they allow a single uninvolved admin to topic ban an editor (on their own discretion, hence "discretionary" sanctions). Much easier than schlepping the person to ANI and trying to raise consensus for a topic ban, indeed perhaps a bit too easy in this case. I'm dubious about instituting DS here. Admins should probably be more ready to block disruptive editors in the area, something they can do without DS. (Take that as a weak oppose.) Bishonen | talk 22:07, 15 March 2015 (UTC).
  • Support - There have been too many threads about electronic cigarette, and community discretionary sanctions will work as well as ArbCom discretionary sanctions to get a few contentious editors off the article. If the community doesn't do this, the ArbCom eventually will, because this will eventually go to the ArbCom if the community doesn't impose general sanctions. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:31, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per Robert McClenon's arguments above. I still think that ANI is a fine place to bring clear, well-formed cases for anything related to these articles, but these sanctions should help calm things down. Good thinking! Jytdog (talk) 15:20, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support it can only improve the environment. All too often things are reremoved or readded without discussion, and discussions are being ignored or answered with non-arguments. And i'm not talking about a particular "side" in this. If the article is to be improved, then it will require editors to cooperate, and seek consensus, instead of acting on their own, and a strong oversight may just force editors to do so. May end up in some blocks/bans - but if that is what it takes, then that is the way forward. --Kim D. Petersen 02:01, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
How on Earth would that constitute a COI with regards to this discussion? --Kim D. Petersen 01:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
You may have a possible COI to the electronic cigarettes pages according to your User:KimDabelsteinPetersen#WP:COI statement. This is relevant to this discussion. QuackGuru (talk) 01:18, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Shall we restart? How is that relevant to this particular discussion? Or are you claiming that i have a COI with regards wanting discretionary sanctions? Are you sure you are thinking this through? --Kim D. Petersen 02:14, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
No thanks. I left a message on your talk page earlier. We can continue that discussion if you want. QuackGuru (talk) 02:20, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Weak support partially agree with KimDabelsteinPetersen. I also think that anything is likely to be better than some of stuff that has been going on at ANI recently which doesn't reflect well on any of the involved parties. However Striking my initial weak support for an oppose in light of comments from Middle 8 and Bishonen. Was never quite sure about this, but in light of those comments I agree and don't think that this would be the best way to proceed. Whilst there are probably one or two problem editors out there that no doubt need dealing with, I'm no longer convinced that ANI does not remain the better method for doing this. I also would have thought that getting the involved parties to work together would be just as important. Which would perhaps mean article restrictions in addition to editor restrictions such as a 1RR rule for instance.Levelledout (talk) 16:42, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Notification. I started an ArbCom discussion. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Battleground on e-cig articles. QuackGuru (talk) 22:34, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
(That request has since been declined.) HiDrNick! 12:45, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support E-cigarette is a battleground. It will remain so for a long time because of content disagreements and lack of discussion. The main article has been protected multiple times. When its protected very little discussion happens, and edits are stockpiled for the next round of problems. AlbinoFerret 03:35, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per AlbinoFerret. -- WV 04:22, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - Unless the tide changes, it looks as if this thread is moving towards a consensus in favor of community-imposed discretionary sanctions. I would like, however, to address the closer of this thread: please do not be tempted to think that closing this in favor of that consensus -- if that is what you find -- obviates the results of the sub-thread above concerning a topic ban for AlbinoFerret. That is, if there is a consensus in that thread for a topic ban -- and I believe there is -- it should be enacted, whether or not discretionary sanctions are approved or not in this thread. Failing to impose a topic ban if there is a consensus for one simply puts off the problem to another time, and possibly yet another repeat of this discussion. True, discretionary sactions would allow an individual admin to impose a topic ban on AlbinoFerret if the admin thought it was required, but the mere possibility of that occurring in the future should not negate a community consensus for a topic ban for AlbinoFerret here and now. BMK (talk) 05:21, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Moot, since the topic ban thread was closed first. BMK (talk) 10:06, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. The difficulties with these articles are intractable at the moment and the editing environment is uncollaborative. Community-authorised discretionary sanctions will be insufficient, because of all the AGF and second chances and other handwringing that drives away editors with good judgment and maintains our high levels of Dunning-Kruger effect across the encyclopaedia, but they're probably better than nothing.—S Marshall T/C 13:31, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Question. Where do editors report an editor who is causing problems when the community-imposed discretionary sanctions are enacted? QuackGuru (talk) 18:09, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
  • My understanding is that any admin can impose sanctions under DS, so I suppose you can either bring it to an admin of your choice, or you can post a thread on AN/I. BMK (talk) 20:46, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Maybe this question was asked before about sanctions in general. There might be some specific guidelines to follow. QuackGuru (talk) 20:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Notifications & sanctions will be logged on a subpage of Wikipedia:General_sanctions. Since any uninvolved admin can impose sanctions, you can bring it up here or ask an admin directly. HiDrNick! 23:10, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. This has been a battleground for months, and both sides are entirely convinced that they alone bear The Truth™. Add the toxic influence of WP:SPAs and a combination of vested financial interests, an intersection with pro-cannabis activism and outright craziness out there in the real world, and you have a perfect recipe for never-ending drama. Guy (Help!) 22:26, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. I don't see a way around this. we can move quickly to quality editing of the articles and put some of this bureaucracy behind us. JodyB talk 00:39, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support: The articles related to electronic cigarettes are basically a battleground. There are simply too many disputes without speedy resolution related to this topic, and disputes are not being resolved properly in this topic area. Esquivalience t 23:04, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment – I'm not sure whether sanctions will be established or not, but I've created a template page for you guys to get them up and running if it they are. The page is located at Wikipedia:General sanctions/Electronic cigarettes. If the sanctions are not approved, simply delete the page. Otherwise, fill the information as appropriate. RGloucester 23:17, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support for numerous reasons mentioned above and per AlbinoFerret.--Wuerzele (talk) 05:38, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose, because this will not get to the root of the problem, which is the number of relentless obvious WP:SPA e-cig manufacturer advocates (one of whom has already been banned from Wikipedia, period) who have infiltrated the articles and made them impossible to edit constructively without constant disruption. The most egregious of the lot is AlbinoFerret, whose entire edit history from September 30, 2014 to present speaks for itself. The problem is not the "toxicity of the atmosphere", or the fact that the SPAs have made it a "battleground", but rather the problem is the (paid) SPAs themselves, and the solution is weeding out and eliminating (via permanent topic-banning, indeffing, or community banning) the clearly paid advocates. Softlavender (talk) 10:02, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Very weak oppose per Softlavender. I do think admin attention can be good at the article, but I don't think discretionary sanctions will address the core problem here. Sanctions are good for addressing acute misbehavior that's readily identifiable such as incivility, edit warring, etc. I would be concerned sanctions just end up banning whoever slips up slightly first without addressing the real problem. What's going on here is more systemic WP:TENDENTIOUS and advocacy-like behavior that isn't readily identifiable by outside editors without taking a close look at each user's overall behavior in discussions and cannot easily be summarized in a few diffs. That being said, I am overall neutral on community discretionary sanctions, but just with the caveat that the underlying issues will likely not be addressed by the sanctions, but hopefully stem the tide at best. If the sanctions are intended as an actual solution, I think that would become a distraction. Short of an WP:RfCU type look at certain users here (I don't think ANI is structured enough for that), ArbCom seems to be the only other option to really sort things out at that level at this time. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:09, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
This has gone on long enough. This is something at least, so I'm changing to weak support. My above caveat on needing to really look at long-term behavior still needs to be considered though as an admin is going to really need to scrutinize a lot of prior posts to establish problems in the history of the articles. Kingofaces43 (talk) 14:48, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
I reflected on this a it more. The core problem of advocacy or just POV issues isn't going to to be solved admin oversight, but either the community looking closely at individual editor behavior or ArbCom doing it. Direct admin attention seems to work for acute issues which aren't the main problem here, but not the tougher to pin down behaviors. Since that appears to be the primary problem here, I don't see discretionary sanctions justifiable or addressing the real issue. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:36, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose The editors at this article are not the problem. It is the subject itself that is controversial. Having discretionary sanctions in this article would not be effective because a significant number of single purpose accounts edit at this article. Applying sanctions on an article where highly experienced Wikipedians edit as single purpose accounts is not effective in controlling controversy because the editors using them are not invested in protecting the reputations associated with those accounts or in using them long-term to build an online identity. It can be right to use WP:SPAs, and I am not critiquing the use of WP:SPAs or suggesting that anything inappropriate, like socking, is even happening here. I am only suggesting that the Wikipedia community gives a bit more weight and protection to established users with established accounts with varied history of participation, as opposed to limited use accounts managed by talented editors. Sanctions is a tool for controlling established accounts, and not for SPAs. Its use here would empower SPAs and disempower established accounts, which is not a desirable outcome in this space. Taking no action to control the e-cigarettes space is an acceptable response to the controversy. The controversy can persist in this space as it has been for months. Blue Raspberry (talk) 20:58, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - I'm not sure I'm understanding the logic of those who write that the behavior in the topic area is bad, or that the subject area is controversial and generates SPAs, but then vote to oppose discretionary sanctions which would give admins the tools necessary to deal with bad behavior (from anyone) and to reign in the e-cig advocates. This is especially odd to me because if community-imposed discretionary sanctions are not implemented here, it's more than likely that someone will request an ArbCom case, which will be opened this time because the community has failed to act, and the result of that will almost certainly be, among other actions, ArbCom-imposed discretionary sanctions. So, in the end, the probability of there being discretionary sanctions for the e-cigarette topic area seems pretty high, in my opinion. BMK (talk) 02:21, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
I guess I'll clarify, but based on where I've seen discretionary sanctions work, it seems to be when specific diffs can be pointed out as problematic. I don't think a single admin overseeing the articles would be suited for the specific behavior problems discussed here though that require a close look at long-term behavior. Looking over the definition of WP:TENDENTIOUS, how do you think an admin would identify tendentious or advocacy-like behavior compared to easier things to identify like incivility? To me, that doesn't really seem like a judgement call for an admin can easily make (I could be convinced otherwise), but rather for a comprehensive case about the editor to be examined either here or by ArbCom. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:24, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, an effective AN/I thread in a non-DS topic which will convince an admin to close it with sanctions to the subject party takes a lot of time and the input of a lot of people. An ArbCom case takes even more time, although the number of participants is typically smaller. Both of these methodologies are generally inefficient at taming a wild subject area -- in fact, ArbCom results can engender more hassles, although they tend to shift to the Arbitration Enforcement area. With discretionary sanctions in place, however, admins can more easily put a stop to misbehavior with non-draconian blocks and bans leading (if necessary) to harsher sanctions. It empowers every admin to use their best judgement under the circumstances, which means that more gets done, and gets done faster. If, as everyone seems to agree (but for different reasons) the e-cigarette subject area needs to be brought under control, discretionary sanctions are an extremely efficient tool to get that done. BMK (talk) 04:24, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Inasmuch as the Arbitration Committee has deferred to the community, at least for now, it seems this is the only reasonable way to deal with the probems. JodyB talk 02:38, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
You've already voted to support in your previous post. Why are you voting again? -A1candidate 09:28, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
You are correct, my oversight. I've stricken it above. JodyB talk 10:26, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. -A1candidate 23:24, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: And while we're discussing if sanctions should be enforced, QuackGuru is antagonizing a new group of editors at an unrelated topic area. -A1candidate 23:26, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Not relevant to this discussion. Start a new thread if you'd like. BMK (talk) 23:46, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
This is relevant because it is evidence of the complete futility of these proposed sanctions. Feel free to disagree, but don't remove or modify my comments. -A1candidate 01:04, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
This is not relevant because this thread is about providing admins the tools to deal with any editor who misbehaves in this topic area, and not about the current misbehavior (if it is that) of any specific editor. If you've still got a thing about getting QG blocked or sanctioned or whatever, even after the effort failed just above, and you think his current behavior warrants it, then start another thread, but don't try to hijack this one. BMK (talk) 01:46, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Question If this passes, do people have an opinion on how long the sanctions should last? Presumably the topic should become less controversial with time as new and reliable studies come out, but I have no idea what that timeframe is. I think "indefinite" is kind of a default for this kind of stuff, but I thought it would be good to at least ask what people think about an expiration date. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:40, 21 March 2015 (UTC) pinging User:HiDrNick 16:24, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I'd say six months would be the absolute minimum, but that a year would be more likely to be helpful in waiting for the research to catch up to the questions. BMK (talk) 01:42, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
  • This may not be necessary to have proposed sanctions. This was an overreaction to the above threads IMO. We can try one month if there is consensus for the sanctions. I think three months would be the most. QuackGuru (talk) 04:33, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
  • A year is the default in most cases, and given the duration of the dispute already I say we go with that. Guy (Help!) 09:38, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
  • So far there is no broad consensus for the community-imposed sanctions. As a compromise we can try the DS for a month. QuackGuru (talk) 18:57, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Not sure where you're getting that conclusion from. Right now, just on pure count, I see 14 supports and 8 opposes, which is 64% (63.63). In any case, if there is no consensus for community-based sanctions, as you contend, then there will be no community-based sanctions, not for a month, not for any amount of time. BMK (talk) 20:31, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose I oppose this without a sunset clause. (Note also that admins effectively have the ability to take these types of actions without DS.) All the best: Rich Farmbrough05:02, 22 March 2015 (UTC).
  • True, but most admins are loathe to hand out topic bans etc. without the support of discretionary sanctions either from the community or from ArbCom. (Incidentally, 1 year of DS is a "sunset clause", so why isn't your vote "support - 1 year"?) BMK (talk) 08:47, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support the opposing position seems to be based on the fact that sanctions probably won't fix anything but the worst I can see them doing is not being used. They certainly won't make it worse. SPACKlick (talk) 10:40, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support Community authorized discretionary sanctions will allow any uninvolved administrator to topic ban an editor who is disrupting the e-cig article(s) without first seeking consensus here at ANI. More accurately, if this passes it shows that there already is consensus at ANI for such a topic ban. And of course if an admin misuses DS we have procedures in place for dealing with that. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:59, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment based on Bluerasberry's comment and Doc James' oppose, I wonder if the best alternative might be to full protect the article for a good long while, processing new edits through consensus on the talk page. (talk) 07:20, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Electronic cigarette is already fully protected until March 30, but there's also Safety of electronic cigarettes and Legal status of electronic cigarettes to consider. Certainly these could be fully protected as well, but that puts the onus on admins to judge whether every suggested edit has consensus behind it. Surely it's better to allow free editing of these articles, and let admins sort out who is being disruptive from who is being helpful in their editing? BMK (talk) 10:08, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
(Involved editor) I would support long-term protection of at least the main article and possibly forks as an alternative to discretionary sanctions. We have recently had issues with a user managing to get full-protection removed, almost immediately making large-scale changes including 16 other edits in 2 hours. Then when protection was re-applied, immediately trying to have it removed again (in fact they successfully managed to get the expiry date moved forward to March 30th this time despite opposition from two other editors including myself). Such desperation to have protection removed clearly demonstrates an intention to do something that can't be done with protection instated, most likely grossly violate WP:CONSENSUS. So yes, I think there's a clear requirement for long-term full-protection. At the very least very close long-term monitoring by admins against consensus and edit-warring violations is required but that would not be as straightforward as protection.Levelledout (talk) 17:35, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Full protection is, generally speaking, a step to be avoided if at all possible, since it's inherently contrary to the Wikipedia ethos of free editing. It also essentially freezes the articles into their current states, as getting a consensus to add or subtract something through the protection is going to be very hard to do, and admins should not accept any suggested edit which does not have a talk page consensus behind it.

Again, I'm not sure why opponents of discretionary sanctions are trotting out other possible solutions when it hasn't been settled whether this one will be put into effect or not. Tallying !votes once more, I see 16 supports and 9 opposes, which means that 64% of the respondents here are in favor of community-imposed discretionary sanctions. That's not a landslide by any means, but it is a healthy supermajority in favor. BMK (talk) 20:29, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Oppose discretionary sanctions. Too often cudgel for the maintenance of House Point of View... It takes two to tango and I expect the anti-e-cig advocates are every bit as tendentious as the routed pro-e-cig peeps... Carrite (talk) 17:53, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
  • And what about the third possible group, those editors who wish to keep the article neutral and supported by reliable sources in line with MEDRS? What do they do when the pros and the antis are duking it out, making it nest to impossible to edit the articles effectively? BMK (talk) 20:50, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support As written and how written (without any explicit sunset provision). Writing an explicit sunset provision only tells disruptive elements how long they have to wait before they can start being disruptive again. The language that this proposal was cribbed from was specifically designed to not have a sunset provision (i.e. indefinite in the same sense that we have indefinite blocks) because either the sanctions will fall into disuse and forgotten or a WikiHistorian will see that we still have the sanctions on the books and a simple consensus vote to revoke them can be accomplished at a later date when it's clear that the authorization has outlived it's purpose. As it stands right now the e-cig field is far too disruptive in its current state to explicitly state when the sunset will take place. I'd rather have positive action to deprecate the sanctions than positive action necessary to maintain them. Hasteur (talk) 16:31, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Vaguely worded. Elohim55 (talk) 14:12, 27 March 2015 (UTC) Sockpuppet of a blocked user. Mike VTalk 17:55, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
  • You are, of course, free to !vote whatever way you wish, for whatever reason you wish, but this:

    Proposed: The community authorizes discretionary sections for all articles related to electronic cigarettes, broadly construed. Any uninvolved administrator may, acting on their own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working within this topic if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Possible sanctions include, but are not limited to: page banning, topic banning, semi-protection, pending changes protection, or blocking any editor so warned. Sanctions may be appealed to the administrator who placed them, the administrators' noticeboard, or the Arbitration Committee.'

    is in no respect "vaguely worded." BMK (talk) 17:47, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support with or without sunset, but my preference would be without, with a later discussion to determine if they have served their purpose or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SarekOfVulcan (talkcontribs) 12:50, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Admins have enough tools to handle issues already; sanctions seem to promote additional drama more often. ScrapIronIV (talk) 16:15, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Multi purpose Support/Oppose/Neutral This !vote may be !added to whichever !tally gets this borefest off this page the soonest. By the time we've finished adding DS to anything anybody finds remotely controversial at all we may as well just make it global and have done with it. So I guess that's "oppose" really. When all you have is a hammer, hey, get a bigger hammer. Begoontalk 17:10, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose The only thing that discretionary sanctions do is give more power and discretion to administrators, ability to topic ban, and prevent their actions from being reversed. The topic bans can be issued sparingly by the community. Admins can already block disruptive editors and given the psychological effect of topic bans, I'd prefer that they be given only in community consensus. Admins already have the tools to deal with the disruption in the topic area. If admins can't block disruptive editors without discretionary sanctions, what's the point in the first place? Tutelary (talk) 19:28, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose strongly From going through the endless discussion it appears to me that there are corporate interests editing the various e-sig pages, paid employees of companies attempting to subvert Wikipedia's WP:NPV guidelines strictly for financial reasons. Imposing sanctions against legitimate editors who are attempting to curb what looks to me to be industry-paid editors are doing to various e-sig articles would be caving in to corporate interests who are pushing their money-driven agenda, and violating a serious Wikipedia guideline. Damotclese (talk) 15:26, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Note. I restored this accidentally deleted comment which was originally posted by User:Damotclese. I deleted the archived discussion since it was unarchived. QuackGuru (talk) 19:49, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - Per Robert McClenon. Mlpearc (open channel) 19:55, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
  • To those who oppose can you lay out the downsides of allowing admins more flexibility? While there has been at least one paid editing issue there are NPOV issues on both sides, competence issues on both sides, IDHT, WP:CAUTIOUS and WP:DONTLIKEIT issues on both sides. Stopping some editors from making the page incomprehensible, repetitive and biased in either direction could allow the page to be balanced and the writing improved by those editors who can do so.
Corporate interest in e-cigs isn't one sided. Traditional NRT companies have put out some shockingly bad science anti-ecig just as much as e-cig companies have spun pro-ecig results from dubious data. If I were the dictator of wikipedia I would burn all the articles to the ground and put two editors and an admin in a locked sandbox (for preference probably Doc James, KDP and S Marshall) and have them start again from the ground up. SPACKlick (talk) 09:45, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Civility Concerns re: Patroller Lukeno94 (with evidence)[edit]

NAC: Colton Cosmic is banned by the community from editing Wikipedia. BMK (talk) 08:32, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I noticed where Lukeno94 was speaking very aggressively and engaging with others in an edit war at Billy Mckay. He then went on to report one of those whom he was sparring, Khanyusufkhalil, on an inexplicable charge of vandalism (he points only to this diff:, and an entirely unexplained charge of sockpuppetry ( I am concerned particularly because Khanyusufkhalil seem to be a non-native English speaker participant, and we don't just to drive such people off with hostile insider behavior. Here are Lukeno94's quotes, which I believe to be uncivil, or at minimum, unnecessarily aggressive. Caps added:

"Lukeno94 moved page Billy McKay to Billy Mckay over redirect: reverting move - STUPID reason for moving back in the first place, Wigan Athletic profile is clearly at Mckay."

"Lukeno94 moved page Billy McKay to Billy Mckay over redirect: Stop this STUPIDITY! Wigan profile says Mckay. BBC source recently says Mckay. Official twitter page of former club - NOT Mackay's - says, well, Mackay."

"(Lukeno94) Reverted to revision 654043229 by Lukeno94 (talk): Revert disruptive editing by an editor who is, right now, bordering on INCOMPETENT - evidence clearly outweighs their RUBBISH."

"(Lukeno94) Reverted 1 edit by PellèLong (talk): POV pushing in the extreme - it's a ref for the height, not the name. TROLL elsewhere."

All from the Mckay/McKay page history on 29 March ( I don't know how violations of WP:3RR are calculated these days, but someone who does might check if Lukeno94 has done a 3RR violation. Other things of note, no-one else involved is speaking nearly as aggressively. Back to Khanyusufkhalil, I simply don't see any vandalism in his edit history ( and Lukeno94 doesn't explain his side charge of sockpuppetry at all. It's a serious charge, isn't it? Since Lukeno94 is apparently on a patroller track to adminship, perhaps now in his development would be a good time for an experienced admin to talk to him about treating people better. Colton Cosmic.

Can we have the diffs for the quotes you have mentioned, instead of us having to troll through a load of history to find them. Thanks. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 16:37, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
On Billy McKay, I would expect User:Lukeno94 to probably claim he was reverting vandalism, which, as you know, is exempt from WP:3RR. As the fella says, some actual diffs would be helpful though. You should also have notified him on his TP of your AN/I report; that has now been done for you. Cheers. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 16:42, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Guys, it is true I accidentally left out one for five minutes but the diffs are right there for you to click on. The quoted statements are all from the second link, which is the McKay/Mckay edit history for 29 March. I was preparing to notify him at his talkpage, Fortuna, but you raced over and beat me to it. Colton Cosmic.

User continues to censor Murder of Selena[edit] (talk · contribs · WHOIS) censored the sentence of a comparison of Hispanic and White American reactions to the Murder of Selena, which is sourced by several sources. The IP feels strongly against the notion of having any comments about a few members of a community that had a different opinion than that of another community; though looking at the sentence now it could have been worded differently to not have stereotyped White and Europeans as a whole. I have asked the IP directly on his talk page about the issue, he refused and undid my revert. I cannot revert or undo another of his edit so I won't violate the WP:3RR rule. Best, jona(talk) 14:13, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

This is not censorship. It is a content dispute where you and the IP disagree on what belongs in the article lead. Your use of rollback in your revert here was inappropriate. The IPs edits are not vandalism as defined at WP:VANDALISM and that should have been the only reason it was used in that instance. You need to go to the talk page and discuss the edits not just revert. -- GB fan 15:07, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
It looks like the IP was removing an unsourced POV statement, and thus was correct in doing so. And if the OP here uses rollback that way again, it should be taken away. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:38, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Can't say I agree with your first point. Remember that content in the WP:LEAD generally mostly reflects what's in the article so doesn't necessarily need to be sourced itself. Most of the content that was removed seems to be in the body of the article and sourced. The wording may or may not be problematic, it may be helpful to repeat there source and there is still legitimate debate over whether it belongs in the LEAD, but calling it unsourced seems unfair. In terms of the more general point, I concur entirely with GB fan. Unless I'm missing something, there's no discussion in the talk page about this. Nil Einne (talk) 09:44, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Could do with some admin assistance.[edit]

Nothing more to do here, creator explained what they were doing and has fixed the situation, page deleted. -- GB fan 15:13, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
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Doing my rounds on huggle when I came across an edit to User:Doruk Babalık which redirected it to User:Sapiocrat. I am not sure if this is a legitimate alternative account, one of the most blatantly obvious sock accounts I have ever seen or something else entirely. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 14:41, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

The page should be deleted under CSD U2 because User:Doruk Babalık doesn't exist. Epic Genius (talk) 14:50, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Fair enough. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 14:51, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure what any of those words mean, but my Wikipedia signature links my name to User:Sapiocrat, and displays my name. Another user tried to link to my name in response, and used my displayed name, which did not resolve to User:Sapiocrat, so I added a redirect. If this was not okay, feel free to remove it. I would appreciate some advice on how to correctly form my wikipedia signature though, so that every user who wishes to link to me can do so easily. Doruk Babalık 14:52, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
So it's simply an alternative name for your account? --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 14:54, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Sapiocrat, it may be better if you just created an alternate account named User:Doruk Babalık. Epic Genius (talk) 14:56, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Epic Genius Okay, thank you. Still getting the hang of all this. Apologies. Should I do so after the page User:Doruk Babalık gets deleted? I gather I won't get mentions of notifications that way though. I'll just change my signature. Doruk Babalık 14:59, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I'll remove the CSD request now, if you can create the account. Epic Genius (talk) 15:00, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
No worries, let it get deleted. Just changed my signature to display only my nickname. Sorry for all this trouble. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sapiocrat (talkcontribs) 15:02, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I deleted it WP:G7 and WP:U2 based on the above statement. -- GB fan 15:10, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
@User talk:Sapiocrat- just to let you know (sorry if you knew already) but under your 'preferences' page, you can change your signature with Wiki-markup whilst keeping your original username- so you can still have both if you want? Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 15:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

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Disruptive anonymous user (Portuguese) — Take Two[edit]

Abusive user continues evading blocks and disrupting Wikipedia. SLBedit (talk) 15:43, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Problems with User: Shivanshsinghrajpoot[edit]

User blocked for 60 hours for Disruptive editing by Anthony Bradbury. (non-admin closure) --IJBall (talk) 04:19, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
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Not sure where to report this. Shivanshsinghrajpoot (talk · contribs) has been disrupting articles on Indian rail (mostly by adding unsourced material in all caps, see here and here for examples), despite being told not to by Widr, Mjroots and Anthony Bradbury. The user has also made zero talkpage edits as well, although English is apparently not their native language. The user's edits, while likely done in good faith, are highly disruptive and are a chore to clean up after. It would be appreciated if someone could take a look at this user, and help sort things out. Thank you. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) may the force be with you 14:23, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

As has been said on my talk page, this is looking like a competence issue. I'd like to try and work with this editor as Indian railway stations are a valid topic, but if he ain't going to co-operate then there's not much we can do other than an indef block. Mjroots (talk) 20:34, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
It looks like the account was blocked by Anthony Bradbury. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) may the force be with you 00:39, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

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Block review[edit]

Have you stopped blocking the admins yet? Misunderstanding cleared up and Magog the Ogre unblocked. Sam Walton (talk) 10:02, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
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Resolved: Block was based on a misunderstanding and has been lifted. Fut.Perf. 06:19, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Could someone please take a look at this block of mine (of User:Magog the Ogre) for personal attacks (see User talk:Magog the Ogre#Comment at AE. I've revision deleted the attack as it seemed quite egregious (so admins only sorry, [57]). The main reason I'm asking for a review is that it's a long term user and I want to make sure others agree on the seriousness (including if someone thinks it might have been a good faith joke/metaphor etc.). If there is agreement that either the block or revdel isn't appropriate please feel free to lift/remove. (I might not be available for a few hours, but I'll try to check in). Thanks, Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 05:48, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

  • I was equally aghast when I first saw the comment in question. The circumstances (long-term user and admin, clean block log) seem to favor a redact + warning, but the (IMO) comment itself is severely insidious enough that my own kneejerk reaction would'e also been RevDel + block. Unless it's a really shitty metaphor that went waaaay over my head, I think the block is absolutely appropriate, and so will be the unblock-request-with-apologies I'm hoping we'll be able to accept soon. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  05:54, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
As per Fut.Perf's enlightening comment, I did indeed miss the reference entirely -- I wasn't familiar with this apparently common analogy for a loaded question. I still think it's kind of a shitty way to make one's point, but y'know, to each their own arguments. Apologies to Magog for jumping to conclusions but I'm actually glad to be wrong in this case. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  06:18, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Huh? What's the problem here? The "have you stopped beating your wife yet" part? People, come oooon. That's not "a really shitty metaphor"; it's obviously the well-known standard example of a loaded question, clearly being used rhetorically/sarcastically. It is plainly obvious that Magog wasn't literally accusing Zero of beating his wife; he was merely charging him with using implicit presuppositions in a misleading way in his own statement. Come on, people, everybody can see this. I've seen this precise sentence used dozens and dozens of times used in exactly this rhetorical way in Wikipedian discussions for just this purpose [58]. Completely harmless statement; very bad block. Please unblock immediately. Fut.Perf. 06:00, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Thank you FPAS for confirming the content of rev-deleted diff, we have also got a redirect called, Do you still beat your wife. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 06:07, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks Future Prefect, I've unblocked, never heard it used like that before. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 06:11, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

A comment from the guy who may or may not have finished beating his wife: Future Perfect is correct about the meaning of the expression and I understood it that way. I thought that Magog's reply was unnecessarily rude, but I can take some rudeness and would have argued against the block if I'd seen it before it was undone. I might hold the record for surviving in the Middle East part of Wikipedia (over 13 years, almost 11 as admin), from which you can infer that I don't have a thin skin.Zerotalk 09:31, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

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Thief has promised to return them when he finds where his cat has hidden them. --Mrjulesd (talk) 12:03, 1 April 2015 (UTC) (non-admin closure)
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I note that at least three, and possibly four, pieces of the logo are missing, including on this very page. I haven't been able to identify the culprits, but must insist that they be community banned (if they aren't too good of content contributors to ban, of course). Any help or advice with this matter would be appreciated. It makes the site look bad to be unable to recover the missing pieces. Pakaran 10:28, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Yawn. Flat Out let's discuss it 10:36, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I have them. I borrowed them a while back and forgot to return them. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 11:14, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Pretty bold to confess that here, Skame. That's like wearing red and standing in front of the bull wiggling your bottom. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 11:28, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
oh, I fully intend on returning them as soon as I find out where the cat has hidden them. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 11:32, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

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A Quest For Knowledge[edit]

A Quest For Knowledge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Can someone tell him to not remove people's talkpage comments just because he thinks it's a BLP violation?


I reverted his asshole move and added a citation showing the problem with Curry's lack of understanding of statistics in that regard.

jps (talk) 01:48, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Given that you issued a blanket putdown of a living person, I'd say Quest was right in removing it. BLP violations are not allowed on talk pages. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:52, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but WP:BLPTALK seems to say that it applies to unsourced or poorly sourced claims. Are you saying my source isn't good? jps (talk) 01:58, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Also, weren't you banned from ANI, Bugs? jps (talk) 01:59, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
No, he wasn't. BMK (talk) 02:08, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Shame, that. jps (talk) 02:10, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
A year or two ago, I was asked to cut back here, which I have. You, I've never heard of before, and given your gratuitous attack, I'd just as soon it had stayed that way. As to the actual issue, it was unsourced, i.e. no better than one editor's personal opinion. If he's provided a valid source, that could be different. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:40, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
@Bugs: He was "Science Apologist" (and a bunch of other names, not all of which are on this list, apparently. BMK (talk) 15:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I do recall that user ID, though I don't recall being on his enemies list. I'll just take it as an April 1 joke. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:50, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

─────────────────────────Has Wikipedia really fallen so low as to say that editors cannot add opinions about living people to talkpages unless they're positive? Even if these opinions are verifiably held by reliable sources and they are directly relevant to issues of accuracy and fact associated with claims. On the talkpage? Has BLP zealotry become the orthodox faith of this website? jps (talk) 12:48, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

It was unsourced. If you've sourced it now, you're on firmer ground. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:50, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
What BLP violation? Caden cool 02:01, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree. It's one thing to say "X is a child molester" or to post unverified blog material alleging that, and another to say "X doesn't understand Y." I see no BLP issue here. This looks more like an effort to censor discussion. Refactoring talk pages should be done with caution. Coretheapple (talk) 02:12, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Yeah, that's an unsourced negative statement about a living person, absolutely a WP:BLP violation. Don't call people assholes who are enforcing policy. Actually, don't do that at all. Ivanvector (talk) 02:21, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I couldn't disagree more. Discussion of sources would be totally crippled if people questioning sources were constantly being refactored on the basis of trumped-up BLP issues. Coretheapple (talk) 02:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I see no BLP violation here, but I can see how it could be perceived as such. Mlpearc (open channel) 03:40, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Is this one of the April Fool's threads? I think I'm pretty strict on BLP issues, and criticizing the quality of someone's scholarship is not a BLP violation. Opabinia regalis (talk) 04:48, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
It certainly is a violation, when it's done without a source. The refactoring was proper. When it was added back with a source, that was also fine. Ivanvector (talk) 12:56, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Are you serious? This is not an article. This is a talk page. jps (talk) 13:56, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Let's do a little experiment: "Tony Abbot has said stupid things." Is that a BLP violation?
Now: "Tony Abbot has said stupid things. [60]" Is that now suddenly NOT a BLP violation?
Do you see the silliness of what your position is? (Is that a BLP violation against Ivanvector since I didn't cite a source that said that "Ivanvector says silly things"?) Sheesh!
jps (talk) 14:12, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

───────────────────────── (edit conflict): Ok but While "x says silly things" is not a BLP violation. "SPACKlick is incompetent at his job", "SPACKlick is unqualified for his job" or "SPACKlick doesn't understand something he earns money claiming skill at" is closer to the mark and should be blanked if remotely controversial (guess this could count as evidence for some of my claims, I'm at my job right now arguing pedantries of policy on Wikipedia) it should be blanked pending source. SPACKlick (talk) 14:22, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

"If *remotely* controversial"? I can understand that argument for articlespace which are visible to Google and the like, but a talkpage? Seriously, what possible reasons for that are there? Is a comment on a Wikipedia talkpage in context of a broader discussion really what we should be policing in such a fashion? jps (talk) 14:31, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I'd have to agree that there's a big difference between a talk page and a wikipedia article. No doubt it was potentially offensive, but I can think of many worse things that have been said about real people on talk pages, and if we were to set out to remove even 1% of them, it would be very difficult to operate. It does look to me like the comment was removed in an attempt to win the argument by censoring the opposition.Deb (talk) 14:19, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I do think that talk pages of BLPs on occasion need to be refactored and even oversighted but only in clearcut instances. In the past I have seen situations in which BLP has been used in very much this fashion, as a cudgel, abusing and twisting the purpose of BLP. Coretheapple (talk) 14:51, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
What cudgel you blank the comment <Courtesy blanked possible BLP Violation pending source> If it's valid comment a source can be found if not it remains blanked. That way wikipedia retains no liability for accidental libel. Where's the real harm in a slightly cautious approach? SPACKlick (talk) 15:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Okay, perhaps I'm taking a very literal and blunt interpretation of the policy, but it does say that it applies everywhere on Wikipedia (which includes user pages, talk pages, drafts, etc. that are not normally reader-accessible) - it's the first sentence of the policy. Any statement about a living person that is contentious must be backed up by a reliable source wherever it appears. If someone reverted then it's contentious. I don't see how this hampers discussion at all: if someone posts a source to a talk page so that editors can discuss its meaning and proper place in the article, there shouldn't be any reason to revert, unless someone takes an unduly contentious interpretation of the source or blatantly misrepresents it. While I agree it seems that AQ4K did so under the veil of the policy in order to censor their opponent, they were technically correct. But that brings to mind wikilaywering and is disruptive in and of itself.
Also, according to how I interpret the policy, calling my position silly is not a BLP violation because you attacked my position, not me personally; it falls under WP:V but not WP:BLP. Saying that I say silly things would violate the policy, but that statement is neither contentious nor unverifiable. Ivanvector (talk) 15:21, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Not having to crystal-ball and dig through history what the editor actually said, perhaps? Avoiding subjective reasoning on border cases, which leads to bad blood and disruption, just as in this case? Yeah, egregious BLP violations should be blanked, but this one does not even come close. It would be impossible to even discuss many things if this kind of BLP zealotry is applied (and, apparently in this case, abused). The same principle as for WP:RUC should be applied: one should have no business in editing substance in other people's talk page comments, except in the worst cases. No such user (talk) 15:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Besides, if we're taking "very literal" interpretations: WP:BLPTALK says Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced and not related to making content choices should be removed (bold mine). Jps's remark was obviously aimed at making a content choice, i.e. suitability of the source. While his choice of words was slightly too blunt, making an opinion does not come close to a libel. No such user (talk) 15:32, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I accept your point regarding WP:BLPTALK and I'll consider this in the future. However, publishing a false statement intended to bring disrepute on the subject of it is basically the definition of libel. Jps didn't say "in my opinion ..." (and shouldn't), they stated "it's well understood that ...". Personally, I would not have reverted that statement, but not being familiar with the topic I would have asked for a source for that statement. Ivanvector (talk) 15:41, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
But reading the discussion, it's plain that the purpose was to make content choices. BLPTALK definitely is not to be abused but it wasn't in this instance. Coretheapple (talk) 15:47, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Immediate block request of User:Saint Kohser[edit]

Now at RFAR Spartaz Humbug! 18:49, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

If you see the userpage he is an admitted sock of a banned user TheKohs. The SPI was opened someitme yesterday but everyone has had their fingers up their bums. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 17:19, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

  • An admin, Fred Bauder, has requested that the user remain unblocked so that they may be allowed to correct the errors they've introduced. This seems a reasonable request if that is indeed what they're doing now. [61] Swarm we ♥ our hive 17:29, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • An admin can not determine to override arbcom sanctions. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 17:32, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Of course and an admin can rightfully block this user. And Fred, a veritable old god of the project, certainly understands this. However an admin can absolutely decline to use their tools if doing so benefits the encyclopedia. We're never required to use the tools as individuals, we're not a bureaucracy and our rules are flexible. I can't override Arbcom decisions, of course, but I can agree with and accede to Fred's perfectly reasonable request. Swarm we ♥ our hive 17:43, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • It seems the most sensible decision, I can't find any way of figuring out what the vandalism was otherwise. Reverting the talk page posts is a good idea though, per WP:DENY. Sam Walton (talk) 17:44, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • "A user who nonetheless chooses to do so accepts full responsibility for the consequences of the material so restored." I accept full responsibility for reverting vandalism. Sam Walton (talk) 17:48, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Ultimately we're administrators of an encyclopedia and the encyclopedia is our first priority. Again, there are rules but we're given flexibility under them. Swarm we ♥ our hive 17:51, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • We have no way of locating the vandalism the user may have engaged in. If he is wiling to revert past vandalism it is productive to give him a day or two to do so. It is inappropriate to simply revert his corrections. Each needs to be examined so that nonsense can be taken out. User:Fred Bauder Talk 18:02, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
To Arbcom we will go then.Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:08, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • WP:BOOMERANG On Hell in a Bucket. For effectively vandalising multiple articles for no good reason, other than seeking punishment of a banned editor.[63] [64] [65] [66] [67] Reverting vandalism is labelled as an obvious exception in WP:BANREVERT. Bosstopher (talk) 18:15, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
User:Fred Bauder Talk 18:17, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Who id I attack, I said holy fuck. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:35, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Uh, you blatantly attacked me in your edit summary. Blatantly. Swarm we ♥ our hive 18:47, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • All that this ANI topic and RfArb do is to draw attention to a silly, malicious publicity gimmick by a banned user who wants to publicize his paid-editing business. I'd request that this be hatted and that the arbitration be withdrawn. Coretheapple (talk) 18:46, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

User:John from Idegon leaving inappropriate Talk templates, WP:BITE[edit]

Closed for the second time. Darla Vise-Eye - consider this a formal warning for your personal attack on another editor after you overwrote my previous close.  Philg88 talk 05:17, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Warning: This is such a stupid editing dispute one would think this was an April Fools prank. I am a long-time anonymous editor who has recently created this account due to a new work situation. Recently, I made what seems to be the egregious mistake (in John's eyes) of copy-editing the Marquette, Michigan article to remove a particularly ludicrous statement ("Summers are warm, with the warmest months, July and August, each averaging 66.6 °F" - 66.6F being in no way what the average person would consider "warm"). John responded with a blind reversion and subsequent inappropriate templating (note that my edit, changing "warm" to "warmer", was correcting unsourced information, and given that the preceding paragraph details the winter climate, saying "warmER" can probably slide without a citation without running too far afoul of WP:SYNTH). I undid his reversion, and left a curtly worded talk message of my own. He then jumped to a Warning: Edit Warring twinkle-spam. His most recent contribution to my Talk page (after re-reverting my edit, this time under the auspices of bad grammar) is bordering on the incoherent. Frankly, at this point I'm at a loss for what to do, as he is clearly not even reading the article - I suspect all he sees is "red userpage newbie", and I am in no state to work with him on this increasingly-idiotic dispute. If the residents of AN/I deem "66.6F" to be "warm", then so be it. Otherwise, can someone please tell him to back off, and refrain from gunking up my Talk page with inappropriate nonsense templates? Thanks, Darla Vise-Eye (talk) 06:04, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

It seems to me, Darla Vise-Eye, that this is a routine content dispute unworthy of any administrative action. As for your assertion that it is "ludricrous" to call an average temperature of 66.6 °F as "warm", I have to disagree with you. If that's the average, it will be a bit hotter during the day and a bit cooler at night. That's not hot weather and that's not cold weather, so "warm" seems just right to me. So why call it "ludricous"? Or is this an April Fool's joke? If so, it isn't very funny. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:30, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
First, if you are not a newbie, bite does not apply. you have made no effort at discussion, and your initial message to me was a personal attack, not the first from the look of your talk page. this is not the place for a content dispute, but substituting warmer is poor grammar. summer is warmer than winter by definition. and as Cullen pointed out, yes average temps in the 60s is quite warm. I'm more than happy to stay off your talk page as long as you don't continue to make poor edits on articles I follow. if you do, I will template you. and if you continue with all the snark you've been spewing, I'm pretty sure you'll find your way back here again. it's worth noting that the OP only has one edit so far that was not reverted. John from Idegon (talk) 06:49, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
it's worth noting that the OP only has one edit so far that was not reverted. - It's worth noting that User:John from Idegon can't tell the difference between the "current" tag and a revert. The only edit of mine that has been reverted is the one detailed above. Furthermore: Go fuck yourself, John. Someone please ban me indef - I can put up with people like John making mistakes (the very fact that he's reverted me for three completely different reasons shows he's taking a shotgun approach to an article he WP:OWNs), and I can put up with people like John being snarky, but I can't deal with both. Now I'm remembering why my own edits tapered off - no surprise Wikipedia's editing traffic has been on the decline for months, what a toxic, insufferable culture. Of course all my edits have been reverted, John - you're the one who reverted them. And lmao, 66F is not at all warm. The year-round average temperature of the entire planet, including barely-inhabited shitholes like Antarctica and Greenland, is 58F. Considering the places actually inhabited by humanity, 66F is not a warm summertime temperature by any means, you brain-addled cretin. This isn't at all about content - this is about editors like John creating an absolutely frustrating and insufferably toxic editing culture because they'd rather spam a random Twinkle template than actually discuss whatever their issue is. Darla Vise-Eye (talk) 19:15, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • When I was young, the lady next door called 60ºF "tee-shirt weather", and it wasn't just because of her personal preference: everyone started wearing light clothing. We all have our own ideas of how different temperatures feel... but that's all a matter of a content dispute. This is a clear WP:BOOMERANG situation; thread should be closed, OP should be warned or temporarily blocked. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 19:30, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Mendaliv, that's because you lived in a cold climate and were acclimated to it. In a tropical environment like Hawaii, you become acclimated to the heat. As a result, 60ºF is heavy parka, gloves, wool hat, and scarf weather for us. Viriditas (talk) 00:16, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hebrew page name change[edit]

I want to change the name of he:הרטה מילר but a redirect is preventing the change. Mcljlm (talk) 09:26, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

@Mcljlm: This is for the English Wikipedia only – can I suggest he:ויקיפדיה:בקשות ממפעילים? Mdann52 (talk) 09:55, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Editor making bulk changes against consensus[edit]

Serpren (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) has for some time been making bulk changes to UK placenames. I informed him [69] on his talk page that per this consensus, it's very clear that bulk changes of this type should cease. This was in many cases mopped up by an admin (User:Redrose64), but Serpren has continued. I reverted him in a number of cases, but he has just reverted.

This consensus was designed to stop this kind of thing, i.e. editors changing UK placenames to suit their own preference, for example removing "UK" or adding it, or swapping "UK" for "England" and vice versa. There's no consensus on which format to use and it is unconstructive to keep switching between them. I have encountered several editors engaging in this practice (usually adding or removing "UK") and showing them the consensus has always stopped them, until now.

Please advise on how to resolve this, thanks. Bretonbanquet (talk) 11:05, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I now see he actually reported me for vandalism [70] although it's not showing on that page. He did not notify me of this report and even accused me of editing "for political motivations", a clear violation of WP:AGF, let alone being utterly wrong. Bretonbanquet (talk) 11:12, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
The consensus Bretonbanquet refers to is "no consensus" as to style (therefore no mandate for bulk changes). However it does refer back to an earlier discussion and straw poll which showed a split consensus (once socks and meatpuppets were removed) between "England, UK/United Kingdom" and "England" (and similarly for Scotland, Wales, N Ireland) in geography leads. (In both discussions it was widely stated by those who usually know about these things that using both the home country and UK was redundant.) Consequently Serpren has some grounds for making their changes, though they would be well advised to stop and seek fresh consensus, since the strawpoll was a long time ago, and not well attended. All the best: Rich Farmbrough15:00, 19 March 2015 (UTC).
Yes, as you say, the straw poll is from 2006 and consensus was split. The 2014 discussion to which I linked above also found no consensus as to style and that bulk changes shouldn't be made. This is my complaint; that Serpren is not abiding by that. Nearly all of his edits are changes of this type. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:06, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

If I may add, Serpren's haste to make these changes has introduced geographic or grammatical errors into at least a couple of articles ([71] [72]). Being so eager to add their bulk changes that they fail to spot any collateral damage is a fairly good indicator that their intentions are not necessarily honourable. QueenCake (talk) 17:19, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the consensus was "Cornwall, England, UK/United Kingdom" and have been assiduously working to ensure conformity across Cornish pages. However, should the consensus be "England, UK/United Kingdom" or "England", I will happily stick with that. My profound apologies for any grammatical errors I have caused, that was certainly not my intent. Maybe an adjudication, or new consensus, could be reached? Serpren (talk) 01:54, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

You say that, but at no stage have you been applying this convention of "Cornwall, England, UK" to pages that say "Cornwall, England". You've only been changing pages which say "Cornwall, UK". Perhaps you could explain why that's the case. The consensus you're talking about is here, but as it says, "Although no-one actively changes articles that don't comply with this format unless making other substantive edits to the article, members of the Cornwall Wikiproject do ensure that where it has been used, it remains in place." In other words, and combined with the other consensus about not making bulk changes to UK placenames, don't change the placenames unless you're making other substantive edits to the article. There is no consensus to enforce this placename format across all Cornish articles, particularly as you're being somewhat selective in your choice of articles to change.
There's also the point about inappropriate use of "Cornwall, England, UK" when the sentence already mentions England or the UK, or "English" or "British". That just amounts to repetition and makes the sentence read very poorly. Bretonbanquet (talk) 10:17, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Well where I have added "England" inappropriately, you should feel free to edit it. However, I can see no refutation that the agreed consensus is the term "Cornwall, England, UK/United Kingdom" and will continue to add England where it is deserved/needed Serpren (talk) 00:15, 22 March 2015 (UTC).

I will. So you are saying that you will ignore the consensus about not making bulk changes and you admit to openly editing against that consensus. You also ignore the point in the guideline about the "Cornwall, England, UK" consensus not being enforced unless making other substantive edits to the article, and you also ignore my question as to why you do not add "UK" to articles that say "Cornwall, England" in your supposed quest to fulfil this consensus. At the risk of failing WP:AGF, that looks very much like editing with a political POV, quite apart from editing against one consensus to wrongly enforce another. Bretonbanquet (talk) 10:59, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
There are a potentially-unlimited number of beneficial edits that a user could choose to make to Wikipedia. However, Serpren has elected to spend months making the same unhelpful edit to hundreds of pages, ignoring all opposition, frequently damaging the flow of a page's prose in order to stamp "Cornwall, England, United Kingdom" repeatedly.
It would be naïve to the point of foolishness to assume good faith when a user is so devoted to deliberate disruption and announces his intentions to carry on causing further disorder. Surely a block on the editor is justified to prevent further wilful disturbance of the project. (talk) 04:39, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

───────────────────────── This single-purpose editor continues making controversial edits against consensus, at some considerable rate. He freely admits that he's going to keep doing it, regardless of what anyone says. Is any admin going to say anything at all? Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:36, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I recommend that User:Serpren be blocked for disruption unless he will agree to stop making mass changes regarding England and the UK. A 2014 discussion found "No consensus for mass changes, and bulk changes of articles should cease." It appears that Serpren intends to violate that decision by continuing to make mass changes. EdJohnston (talk) 17:52, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your input, admins – sorry I had to repost the whole thing. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:03, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
@Bretonbanquet: I didn't read the whole thing, but I am curious if we can establish one revert per 24 hours rule on England and U.K. articles, in case if that user will start to revert as well. We already have this rule in place for WikiProject Israel and WikiProject Ukraine.--Mishae (talk) 02:09, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
@Mishae: That's a good idea. Hopefully it won't come to that, but it's certainly worth considering if the problem continues. Thanks, Bretonbanquet (talk) 10:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

User:Derek R Bullamore reported for unprovoked incivility[edit]

Looks like the mastodons got hold and things went a bit over the top. I've dropped a word on User talk:Derek R Bullamore, and that should hopefully the end of it. No admin actions required for now. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:16, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I recently made some politely and helpfully intended comments on User:Derek R Bullamore's talk page regarding MOS:ALLCAPS. Instead of being at all appreciative of having this MoS issue drawn to his attention, this apparently experienced editor instead responded with gratuitously patronising comments ending with "It would be a good thing if you stuffed yourself." which is another way of saying "go fuck yourself". No editor should have to tolerate this kind of incivility in response to trying to be helpful. Afterwriting (talk) 12:52, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

"If you have also been doing all this on other articles then it would be good thing if you went back to them and corrected yourself. Thank you." seems rather patronising, and I'm not surprised you got it thrown back in your face. Squinge (talk) 13:14, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Although it "seems" patronising to you it was not. There was nothing patronising at all intended in my comments which were only intended as helpful advice. If I make any MoS mistakes then I appreciate being told so. As should all editors. Afterwriting (talk) 13:54, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Your comment was addressed to a contributor with nine years experience and 125,000 edits to his credit, and you really can't see how you were talking down to him in a condescending manner as if he was an ignorant newbie? And your first response to an unfavorable reply is to file an ANI complaint? I suggest you reflect on your own approach to interaction with others and decide whether it might be wise to withdraw your complaint. Squinge (talk) 14:09, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Just an observation: Any time you correct a fellow editor, I don't think you should expect appreciation and gratitude. I'm not saying it never happens but it's not the first reaction most people have. Liz Read! Talk! 14:30, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Patronising or not there's no call for an acceleration from "hey, could you fix this?" to "get stuffed". Ironholds (talk) 13:58, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Is an appeal to ANI as a first recourse, rather than a little introspection and a friendlier approach, really the best way to deal with this? If people think it is, then I despair. Squinge (talk) 14:28, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

April fools - Take two[edit]

No admin action requested or apparently necessary. Sam Walton (talk) 17:30, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikipedia is getting to be like the Puritans abolishing Christmas in the seventeenth century. There's a discussion on the Village Pump complaining about the term "talk page stalker" which has always been in the context of a nice furry jaguar padding through the jungle and has only offended editors when other editors stir things up. The proposal is to redirect to "talk page watcher". Seems to me to be a throwback to George Orwell and "1984". For example, at the Village pump discussion one editor has said

Hunting animals, hunting people. Yes, that's completely the same.


Yesterday, [[Category:Requests for unblock]] had a large red notice above the list of appeals saying

This list is out - of - date. Click on User talk: ... for more information

This led to the user talk page of an editor whose handle consists of two words and will be familiar to you, but as my memory is not what it was I cannot provide the name since the history of yesterday's surfing has been wiped from my browser. The talk page carried the usual banner seen by IP editors, "You have new message from another editor. Click this link to view." So I clicked the link and this message came up

You have been April fooled. See the number of people who have been fooled in previous years.

There then followed a list of years with numbers beside them (in the low hundreds) which is presumably an automated tally of the number of clicks made by unsuspecting users in the years cited. This jape is no doubt an irritant to users who have been blocked but I cannot see that the "Emperor's new clothes" prank discussed above is more blameworthy.

Every year at this time I see editors being hauled over the coals at this page being reduced to making grovelling comments on the lines of "Yes, I shouldn't have done it, I just did it for fun, I'm very sorry and I won't do it again". I don't think behaviour here is any worse than that of the media (newspapers, television). One Saturday, April 1 in the 1980s (so not 1984 therefore) the London Guardian ran a story about a Brazilian watch manufacturer which had just produced a model which gave the time and direction for prayer to Mecca anywhere in the world on any day of the year. As I happened to be free and not far from the newspaper's office in the Gray's Inn Road I went round there. The concierge telephoned the journalist in question who admitted the story was a hoax and a profuse apology was made. I don't think anything further happened.

Getting upset about this sort of thing is counterproductive. I do vandal patrol and some of the crazy vandalism that some people introduce into Wikipedia just makes me laugh. A happy and peaceful Easter to all of you. (talk) 11:15, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Have you seen Wikipedia:Rules for Fools? It lists some of the RfCs that have been started about April Fools mischief. It's always been a contentious topic. As for the "talk page stalker" discussion, I'll leave that to people who seem to care about this. But I do agree that having some perspective is important, both for the editors and the readers. Liz Read! Talk! 11:37, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Not to get to "meta" on the OP, but I find it a bit ironic that the response to people starting long threads over trivial matters that shouldn't be contentious is then starting a long thread about starting a long thread over trivial matters. If the original complaints were trivial, and didn't need the attention they got, further complaints about the complaints are doubly trivial. Just sayin'. --Jayron32 15:26, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
So, err, what's the incident that requires the notice of an administrator? —Tom Morris (talk) 16:06, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • I object to the characterization of the talk page watcher discussion as an April Fools' joke. While you may think it's funny and no big deal, I assure you the issue is a very serious matter, which multiple editors have debated in that thread which has been open since February, and it is a much more detailed proposal than a simple redirect. Ivanvector (talk) 16:15, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
You're using synthesis to impugn Liz. "Characterisation of the talk page watcher discussion as an April Fools' joke" is a product of your imagination, as is your suggestion that any of us "think it's funny and no big deal". (talk) 16:51, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Sigh. The IP has issues with my edits, occasionally portraying them out of context. The "hunting animals, hunting people" quote in the original post was a direct response to their rather farcical comparison, "I think that you and NeilN are overthinking this. All the hurt I've seen relates to the description "wikistalking" and similar. Can you provide an actual example of an editor complaining about a picture of a big cat and accompanying stalking reference? I mean, plenty of women go on safari and I can't see any of them getting upset about the hunters talking about stalking the big game" --NeilN talk to me 17:14, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
In the 1930s German schoolchildren played happily with their Jewish classmates and invited them to their homes. Then along came the Hitler Youth and the German schoolchildren started telling their former friends they were bad people and they were not allowed to talk to them. If you can't see that hunting people (genocide) is not the same as hunting animals (collecting food) there's no hope for you. You've been asked (and failed) to provide evidence that there was some demand for this before you and others started going about saying how appalling this template was and it must be deprecated. You appear to have jumped into the issue of redirecting WP:STALKING to WP:HARASSMENT and used it as a lever to create disruption in areas which were working just fine. (talk) 17:26, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Aubmn and sockpuppetry[edit]

Either sock- or meatpuppetry, used to give the impression of greater support for a view and reduce appearance of edit-warring. Blocked for two weeks. Mildly, when you return please also heed advice from other editors about using a less dramatic tone in content editing. -- Euryalus (talk) 19:52, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Aubmn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) has been busy on the article Marie Antoinette, showing some clear signs of ownership (1) as well as some dubious citation practices by adding extensive information without changing existing citations, yet claiming that the existing citations are covering the drastic changes.

At several times IPs from Lebanon has showed up at crucial points to participate in edit wars and showing support for the edits when Aubmn edits have been challenged: 1, 2, edit summary: "It is the first time I read this article since 1 year ago, it is much better completed ,with source other than Fraser, physics facts only 10 words in thousands of words"). Aubmn was [ warned about editing while being logged out, and again when it continued. Yet today a third Lebanese IP shows up at the page pretending not to be Aubmn and supporting their edit warring: 1, 2. The first edit suggesting that I go to talk page, even though I had already posted on the talk page (to which neither Aubmn or their many IP iterations has bothered replying).

This usage of IPs as edit warring tag team is clearly an abuse of WP:SOCK and as they have been warned for it in the past, perhaps it is time for some sanctions until they understand the policies regarding that issue? --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:11, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Saddhiyama (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) SAID WIKiPEDIA IS NOT RELIABLE ON MARIE ANTOINETTE TALK PAGE, REVERTED ME AND ANOTHER EDITOR THREE TIMES IN LESS THAN TWO HOURS IN SPITE THAT WE ASKED HIM ALMOST BEGGING HIM BEFORE EACH REVERT TO GO TO THE TALK PAGE FOR COMPROMISE AND CONSENSUS IN ADDITION ON MARCH 3O I SUSPECT SOCKPUPPETRY ON HIS PART BUT I CAN T ACCUSE HIM WITH CERTAINTY BECAUSE I RESPECT UNKOWN EDITORS; Saddhiayama has already broken Wikipedia rules as he removed major informations without trying to find consensus on the subject talk page although he was asked after each revert by me and other people to go to the talk page to find consensus and compromise but he persisted in his reverts, in addition he reverted me and other editors 3 times in less than 2 hours, I' m a very positive editor who was trying to communicate with a lot of people to make this article better, the talk page about size prove that although I contributed a lot to this article adding major information's and removing massive copyrights violations, I always worked with other people even giving them informations and sources about the subject. A lot of people use Wikipedia, this article is read by more than 3000 persons everyday, I 'm know working on the talk page to find a compromise. Should I believe Saddhiyama used sockpuppetry because two days ago an unknown ip made a lot of changes to be followed directly by his intervention and reverting me. What is clear Saddhiyama did not go to the talk page first and he reverted me and other editors three times. Anyway I 'm ready to work with him on common ground like I do with all editors.Aubmn (talk) 11:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
There is no "possible WP:Sockpuppeting"; he is WP:Sockpuppeting. And anyone with common sense knows it, which is also why he's been warned about it more than once. Flyer22 (talk) 12:14, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
And regarding the "possible WP:Sockpuppeting" part of my post above, I was responding to this heading; Aubmn had highjacked the thread, and I misread it as Saddhiyama's heading. Flyer22 (talk) 12:20, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Aubmn (talk · contribs), this is inappropriate; you did not start this thread, so you should stop highjacking it. There is no need whatsoever for two sections at WP:ANI addressing this matter. You are highly WP:Disruptive and should be blocked for it. In my opinion, you should be indefinitely blocked. Flyer22 (talk) 12:30, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
We don't have "possible WP:Sockpuppeting" but we do have Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets when socking is suspected but not verified. Liz Read! Talk! 12:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, Flyer22, I didn't see the edit you reverted that made the reference to possible sockpuppetry so the context of your comment was not clear. Liz Read! Talk! 12:38, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
For anyone wanting to know about Aubmn's problematic editing at the Marie Antoinette article; start with this section, and keep reading, or skimming, on from that point. WP:Copyright violations and other messes. Flyer22 (talk) 12:39, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Even though that article is on my WP:Watchlist, I got fed up with Aubmn's editing and left NebY and others to deal with him; sorry about that, NebY. Flyer22 (talk) 12:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Flyer as usual is polite and positive, she wants to block an editor who finished a major article, who is always positive and who removed thousands of copyright violations in Marie Antoinette article, today I 'm working in a consensual spirit on Napoleon(see Napoleon talk page) another major article, I 'm changing it in a massive way with the collaboration of other positive editors not like Flyer who was negative with me from the beginning although I acknowledge my mistakes because I didn 't know all the rules about copyright laws, I was positive in correcting all my mistakes and in removing thousands of copyrights violations who were in the article before my contributions.I proposed to work with Flyer only to be insulted, see MA talk page.Aubmn (talk) 12:48, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm a she, your characterization of my involvement is false (as anyone is free to investigate), and I reiterate that you should be indefinitely blocked. At least until editors are certain that you are no longer a threat to Wikipedia articles. Flyer22 (talk) 12:53, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for the he, I changed it to she, I didn 't know excuse me.Aubmn (talk) 12:56, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for that. Flyer22 (talk) 13:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Possible legal threat[edit]

User blocked for 31 hours for Edit warring by Ymblanter. Further investigations for BLP violations may be in order. (non-admin closure) --IJBall (talk) 22:58, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:David Coburn MEP is currently under investigation at WP:AN3#User:David Coburn MEP reported by User:Nomoskedasticity for edit-warring (27 reversion so far)- there currently doesn't appear to be an admin looking into the case. In addition, an edit summary here implies they may wish to take legal action. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:09, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Probably not an actual legal threat, but that is some seriously bad COI editing. Ivanvector (talk) 16:17, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Saying that an editor cannot edit "with impunity" may suggest that they may take any number of different actions, not limited to legal action. They may make a big deal about it in the press or complain about the editor at ANI or any number of other things. I don't think this is clear or specific enough to count under WP:NLT. —Tom Morris (talk) 16:21, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I wasn't sure, so thought bringing it here would be safest. Either way, could someone go to the edit warring board. They're now on 28 reversions, and I think most of he 10 people who've reverted their COI edits don't want to anymore for fear of breaking WP:3RR. Also, they've been informed multiple times about COI/removed sourced content/adding unsourced content/contacting [WP:ORTS]], and they are under investigation for sockpuppetry too. Hopefully someone will eventually block them and end this madness. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:22, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
At this point the edits must constitute mere vandalism and therefore not be subject to WP:EW? Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 16:25, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
At this point, the user has been blocked for edit warring, so that issue is resolved. There may be other ones, particularly with the username; I'm expecting the user will post something to their user talk page shortly about the block, and we'll proceed from there. —C.Fred (talk) 16:29, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
It would probably be worth looking at the article for BLP violations. From a cursory review I'm finding a few potential ones. --Kyohyi (talk) 16:32, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

American Nazi Party[edit]

IP blocked for 31 hours by Nakon. (non-admin closure) Erpert blah, blah, blah... 08:23, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can I please get a block on the IP editor User:, who thinks that the American Nazi Party was far-LEFT wing and not far RIGHT-wing? This kind of idiocy is so... idiotic that it's tantamount to vandalism. Any admin is invited to block me for edit-warring if you like, but I'm going to be up and around for a couple of hours, and I have every intention of not allowing this vandalism to remain in the article. BMK (talk) 05:38, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

User has been blocked for vandalism, no action necessary for your account. Nakon 05:44, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. BMK (talk) 05:49, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

28 successive revdels on this page on March 28?[edit]

Revdels of an errant edit can involve successive posts. (non-admin closure) Liz Read! Talk! 12:08, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can an admin please check and explain the revdels of 28 successive posts on this page on March 28 UTC? The 28 posts (from here to here) were by 10 different editors on 6 different threads. None of the 28 revdels seem to show up on the page's log [73], so this is entirely mysterious and seems to be some sort of error. It seems that most of the revdels should be reverted. Perhaps the error came after Zhanzhao requested on March 28 "can any admin help me remove permanently my last few posts where I named the social media site and the time of posting? Sorry, I'm not at my best right now and may have outed myself", but even that does not show up in the log I posted, and if that occurred, a lot of other unrelated posts by unrelated editors got zapped as well. Odd. Softlavender (talk) 05:03, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

The revisions have been suppressed and are not visible to admins. Nakon 05:05, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Then can an WP:oversighter please look into it and see what happened? Obviously there was no reason for 28 random edits in a row on different threads to all be revdelled and oversighted. There was some error here, or something that should be explained. Softlavender (talk) 05:11, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
The most likely reason was that an oversight-able edit was made and 27 subsequent edits were made to the page before it could be suppressed. Unfortunately, there's no way to excise the data from a revision, so the entire block of edits had to be suppressed. This is rare, but the Oversight team will suppress all of the edits regardless of how many interim edits have been made. Nakon 05:12, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
To elaborate on Nakon's point: if some bit of offending text was made by an editor, every revision which contained that text needs to be suppressed, regardless of which successive editors made whatever comments to whatever threads on the main page. Removing only the first edit is meaningless; if further edits preserved the offending material, those would have to be excised too. Yes, it does ruin the attribution (in the page history) of certain comments (though the comments stand and the signatures still indicate who made them). Sometimes such things need be done. --Jayron32 05:21, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
My point is that all 28 completely unrelated posts on unrelated topics by unrelated editors did not contain offending text. Why can't the two or three "offending edits" be oversighted one at a time, separate from the other 25 or 26 unrelated edits? Softlavender (talk) 05:45, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
This is not possible due to limitations in the Mediawiki software. An edit makes a copy of the previous content of the page along with the new content. Regardless of the unrelated topics, the edits still contained "bad" content which was required to be removed. Nakon 05:48, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Per Nakon, those 28 edits DID contain the offending text. Every addition you make to a page doesn't remove text. It just adds to it. So when someone (even unknowingly) saves a page with bad content, those saves still contained the bad content and had to be excised. --Jayron32 05:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
  • OK, I see what y'all are saying. You're saying that iterations of the entire project page which happened to contain the offending information somewhere inside had to be removed. Softlavender (talk) 06:00, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The intentional insertion of a falsehood on yesterday's main page[edit]

Clearly, the proposal of a desysop is not going to happen here, not least because there is no consensus for that to happen. If people think the consensus reached at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/April Fools' needs to be revisited, feel free to propose that at the relevent location. This thread has passed it's usefulness now, so closing. Mdann52 (talk) 09:19, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Yesterday's main page prominently claimed that in the year 528, "China's only cross-dressing emperor ruled for a single day." [74] From discussions at Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors [75] it has become clear that this assertion is not only unsourced, but "slightly fudging it to make the hook sexier". Or in plain English, an outright lie, intentionally added to Wikipedia (apparently by an admin, though I'm not at this point entirely sure that the was the originator of this falsehood). I can see no reason why this should be seen as in any way different from other forms of vandalism – the fact that it was done for April Fools doesn't alter anything, as far as I can see. Legitimate April fools hooks may mislead – but the linked article will make the misdirection clear. In this case, the article says nothing at all about 'cross-dressing', and accordingly our readers will have no way of knowing that the supposed 'fact' was pulled out of thin air for no legitimate purpose whatsoever. If it was indeed done by User:Howcheng, as the history seems to indicate, I would have to suggest that we should seriously consider whether someone making such a gross error of judgement should continue to hold admin tools. Deliberately misleading readers, and leaving them with no indication that they have been misled, is a fundamental breach of trust, and I can see no reason why it should be tolerated. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:20, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Having read the earlier discussion, I share your disappointment. The agreed-upon April Fools' Day twist is purposely ambiguous wording that gives readers the wrong impression (until they read the article) despite being 100% true. This claim appears to have been flat-out false, which is unfortunate and unacceptable.
However, I regard Howcheng as one of our best administrators and don't believe for a second that he had any ill intent. This seems like an isolated lapse in judgement (and nothing more) – certainly not grounds for desysopping. —David Levy 00:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Seems to be simply a misunderstanding of what the word "cross dress" means, taking it to mean "wear women's clothing" which is of course true – as long as the person cross dressing is a man. Here the intended joke seems to have been that this was the only emperor who wore women's clothing – because she was a woman.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 00:58, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
There is no legitimate definition of "cross-dressing" which includes a woman wearing a woman's clothes, so the hook was an outright lie. BMK (talk) 01:01, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
A misunderstanding of the meaning of a word is not an outright lie, no.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 01:03, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
It appears that further there was a gender/mixup involved duing which the infant empress was presented as a boy and crowned as if she were male. So I think some serious AGF is warranted here.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 01:06, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
The 'emperor' was a child less than two months old – and we know nothing about what she wore, only that she was falsely declared to be male. Furthermore, when someone says that the hook was "slightly fudging it to make the hook sexier", there is no room for a 'mixup' or misunderstanding that I can see – it is a statement that a falsehood was intentionally placed on the main page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:11, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I am sure the world actually looks that black and white to you. To me it doesn't for which I am quite thankful.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 01:13, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
When someone says that the intentionally 'fudged' something to make the page 'sexier', I take them at their word. Call that black and white thinking if you like – I call it basing my judgement on the evidence available. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:24, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
What action would you have Wikipedia take? I think you're missing the distinction between "Malicious and willful attempt to do something objectively bad" and "Good-natured fun that was slightly ill-thought-out and went a tad awry". One can acknowledge the hook was wrong and perhaps should not have been posted, and still not demand action or claim that others acted in bad faith. Not every mistake in judgement is a capital offense, and sometimes we can acknowledge the poor actions of others while also acknowledging it isn't a big deal. --Jayron32 01:37, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Even though it was wrong, it is an isolated case and I agree that it is not necessarily bad faith. In the spirit of yesterday having been April Fool's Day, I guess we were all fooled. Epic Genius (talk) 02:39, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
@Jayron32: The OP stated I would have to suggest that we should seriously consider whether someone making such a gross error of judgement should continue to hold admin tool both indicating they acknowledged it was a mistake, but to the OP it isn't a big deal. I believe the OP to be angry. I also believe the OP made the proposed action (removal of admin) clear. You have to understand, as Chbarts says below, there is a bit of a civil/human rights issue triggered here involving transgender and genderqueer folk. This mistake was (to us) along the line of talking about someone being the first black actor and then showing a picture of a man in black face. Just some perspective. Jerodlycett (talk) 03:08, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
In addition, it was deliberately transphobic, and could only serve to prove that this project is extremely unfriendly to trans people and dismissive of their issues. The refusal of the editor User:Howcheng to acknowledge this and fix the issue is an example of how trans-exclusionary this project can be at times.—chbarts (talk) 01:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Holy crap, y'all are making mountains out of molehills here. I'm happy to cop to stretching the truth a bit on the blurb, when all that we really know about the incident is that the Empress Dowager declared that her granddaughter was a boy. But now I'm going to have to do something that I didn't want to have to do and out myself as someone who is leaning transgender. I cross-dress and I identify myself as a cross-dresser. I don't see how this is offensive, when the term merely means "person who wears clothes that are typically for the opposite sex". I don't plan on transitioning to female, so what other word is applicable here? "Sissy fag"? "He-she"? So when you say this project is extremely unfriendly to trans people and dismissive of their issues you are 100% in the wrong. I am extremely sensitive to these issues because I am in that category myself. So F you and the horse you rode in on and grow a sense of humor, jackass. (Apologies to the other editors reading this, but it really gets my goat to be lectured to by someone who has no idea of the circumstances and is simply making assumptions.) howcheng {chat} 04:22, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Here's a handy tip for you: Wikipedia being an encyclopedia and all, don't stretch the frigging truth, ever. The fact that an admin would think it was allowable to do so, even in a DYK hook, is incredible to me. I don't agree that you should be desysopped, I think perhaps you should be banned from any editing involving the contents of the encyclopedia (broadly construed) for a short amount of time -- say a week or so -- but be allowed to continue to use your admin bit. And I trust that underneath your complaints above, you feel some measure of guilt and remorse for your dissembling, or I would be pushing for a desysop.
Many, many editors work very, very hard trying to make Wikipedia as accurate and factual as possible. We've got enough problems with inadequate sourcing, deliberate misinformation, advertising and promotion, point of view pushing, and sneaky vandalism, without people "stretching the truth" for a lame joke. BMK (talk) 04:32, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Point of order: It was OTD, and it's the April Fool's edition, when all the blurbs have a long history of being intentionally misleading. In 1572, did the Duke of Alba really lose his glasses? In 1999, did the Northwest Territories of Canada carve their inhabitants into two pieces? No, of course not. You've been here since 2009, so you can't honestly claim that you didn't know about the long-standing tradition of having silly and somewhat misleading content on the Main Page on April 1. OTD doesn't do this any other day of the year. If you want to complain about this practice, fine, but don't go around preaching "admins should know better" when the same sort of thing has been going on for years, predating my involvement. So I'll apologize for not being clever enough to come up with a better joke, but not for trying maintain the spirit of the April Fool's Ma Page. howcheng {chat} 05:24, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Actually, I've been here since 2005, and I don't give a shit whether it was OTD or DYK, and I don't give a shit about such a stupid "tradition" wherever it occurred. The thing I give a shit about is building a factual, accurate and useful encyclopedia that serves our readers as best it can. I suggest that the "tradition" end right here and now, and also that you take a somewhat different attitude to the extremely justified criticism you're receiving. You really don't seem to think you made any kind of error in judgment, and if that's the case, than I could well begin to agree that you're not fit to be an admin, who are people whose judgment we must trust. Stop reacting, please, and do a bit of thinking about what you did. BMK (talk) 05:52, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Hiding behind a point of order when someone has pointed out multiple times that what you did was wrong and hurtful is contrary to the spirit of building an open and inclusive project.—chbarts (talk) 05:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
(ec) I don't see anything about gender identity whatsoever here. If you're insisting that anyone who has ever dressed up as or otherwise been presented as the opposite gender (including drag queens and Shakespearean boy actors) is transgendered, you're causing a far worse problem than anything you might be trying to solve. (Hint: "cross-dresser" is only trans-exclusionary if it's applied to a transgendered person for the purposes of denying their gender identity). --Carnildo (talk) 04:30, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Furthermore I'd like to point out that Chbarts never once explained how the term "cross-dressing" is transphobic, and instead simply just repeated the assertion over and over, as if somehow we were supposed to be able to read his or her mind. I would have been perfectly happy to address your concerns, but you never bothered to tell me what they were. howcheng {chat} 05:32, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
You'll see that I have explained.—chbarts (talk) 05:34, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
It's trans-exclusionary to say that presenting someone of one gender as another involves cross-dressing when no cross-dressing actually occurred. It's equating gender identity to clothing, which is degrading and minimizing. Had there actually been cross-dressing, this wouldn't be an issue.—chbarts (talk) 05:30, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I swear you have gone out of your way to be offended here. This is a story of an 50-day-old baby girl. It does not involve her own gender identity. At that age, she has no real sense of self and is barely even holding her own head up. I apologize for being combative in my response here. It's just frustrating when you could have explained yourself hours ago, and I never would have felt the need to out my own proclivities, which involves me risking my standing in my community. But as they say, you can't put toothpaste back into the tube. Besides, gender identity for someone like me is heavily tied to clothing. howcheng {chat} 05:48, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Your personal attacks notwithstanding, do you admit that what you did was wrong, and will you at least claim you won't do it again?—chbarts (talk) 05:52, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

─────────────────────────@Howcheng: Stop digging your hole deeper. Stop posting for a while and go over what happened. Figure out why people are mad and disappointed at your action. Here's a hint: it doesn't really have anything to do with gender issues or whether the joke was funny or not. BMK (talk) 05:55, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

  • This must not happen again. If it can be dealt with by a civilised apology and promise to avoid the area in future, that would be great. If not, I would suggest a desysop may be in order. --John (talk) 06:12, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • What we need is more humour like this on April Fools' Day. Now that April 1st is over this thread can be closed. QuackGuru (talk) 06:24, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
    • I kind of hope this is some kind of dadaist April Fools' joke, because if it's not, it's a massive overreaction. What's next, we torture Howcheng's entire family to death for the horrible crime of extrapolating slightly on an April Fools' DYK hook to make it more interesting? Lankiveil (speak to me) 06:30, 2 April 2015 (UTC).
      • We are not primarily a humorous project. I am not a fan of behaviour like this, which crosses a line. If it is likely to be repeated, action needs to be taken to prevent such repetition. Hyperbole will not help us, and neither will trying to brush the matter under the carpet. --John (talk) 06:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
        • We get it. You are not a big fan of the traditions on Wikipedia for April Fools' fun. Why so serious? Or maybe you are joking around by being so serous. QuackGuru (talk) 06:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Insulting a whole group of people and then claiming you're just joking is not behavior we should tolerate. Worse is having what you did wrong explained to you and then refusing to acknowledge that there is, or even could be, a problem with your actions. That is something willfully bad, and it is evidence of bad faith.—chbarts (talk) 06:55, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I would like to read some more Aprils Fool's jokes. Can you point to me the other issues and evidence. QuackGuru (talk) 07:03, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Sure. :P --TMCk (talk) 07:20, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
When were you elected a spokesperson for this group of which I am a member? I certainly don't recall getting that memo. I am sorry that you perceived there to be an insult in the blurb. Even after your explanation, I still don't see it. howcheng {chat} 07:50, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Eish. I was happy to find an April Fools' item on the main page, all the more so since it took a bit of puzzling to figure out what it referred to (i.e. got me to attentively read an article I normally wouldn't have). It certainly wasn't the best trick I've seen this April 1, but it was fine for the day. I suppose there could be a discussion about whether this kind of tradition should be kept up (i.e. is Wikipedia too trusted and/or stuffy for a bit of fun by now?) – although I'd argue that treating readers as hyper-sensitive hothouse flowers sells both them and the project short. In any case, Howcheng has nothing to apologize about. Elmidae (talk) 06:55, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Anyone who wants to be humorous on Wikipedia can joke around to their heart's content on the talk pages of their friends. It should never invade article space or the front page. Never. Ever. Those who think it's fine for fun and games and "stretching the truth" to be part of the public face of the first source of information for millions and millions of people are just simply, utterly mistaken. That's not what we're about, and it should stop, now, forever. It's time to start a new tradition of taking what we do here seriously, and getting our jollies elsewhere. BMK (talk) 07:05, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

(ec) think John's point is this – people are allowed to be funny, and equally people are allowed to find the same humour unfunny or even offensive. In either case, neither view must interfere with writing an encyclopedia. The contentious hook has been and gone so I suggest we agree that mistakes happen, remind howcheng that factual accuracy has to trump humour, put this behind us and move on. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 07:08, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

It would be nice if Howcheng would actually acknowledge that, because he hasn't so far. He's "cop[ped] to stretching the truth" and apologized for "not being clever enough to come up with a better joke", but, so far as I am aware, he hasn't actually said that he had a lapse in judgment. I think that at least some significant portion of the community needs to hear that. We cannot simply assume it. BMK (talk) 07:15, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I don't see a problem. Infants are often dressed based on the gender assigned at birth and a play on words that they were cross-dressed and/or misgendered is not transphobic. The hook that the person is an infant sets the tone. It becomes obvious when the article is read. --DHeyward (talk) 07:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Poor howcheng. Only Emperor for a day and nobody even liked his frock. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:53, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I don't see how this can be reasonably called offensive or inaccurate, If the child wore clothes traditional for girls while being declared a boy that could reasonably be referred to as cross dressing. If the child wore clothes traditional for boys while being biologically a girl that could reasonably be referred to as cross dressing. It is not disputed the child was biologically a girl, it is not disputed that the child was declared a boy and it is not disputed that chinese childrens clothing was not traditionally gender neutral, therefore the child could reasonably be referred to as cross dressed. I think April Fools needs to stop, not just on wikipedia but worldwide, however it is still a tradition, and one that wikipedia engages with and this otd ambiguous "joke" is just poor humour not poor taste. SPACKlick (talk) 08:29, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Arguing about the semantics of what "cross-dressing" means is missing the point. Just accept that other people were genuinely surprised by the link, and that at least from their point of view, the hook went against the principle of least astonishment that good linking should adhere to. Or, if you prefer, WP:EASTER (yes, irony intended). Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 08:49, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I fully disagree. The semantics of cross dressing was entirely the basis of the initial complaint. OTD on April Fool's is traditionally all about violating the principle of least astonishment, however the link was cross dressing emperor and linked to the article about the emperor. That's far from an easter eggSPACKlick (talk) 09:10, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

On a related note[edit]

I think it is also worth noting that the entry which made light of the Battle of Okinawa (and to a lesser extent the Battle of Five Forks) was also in extremely poor taste. I am not a spoilsport and have no problem with DYK hooks talking about an elephant named Osama or Russian a billionaire named God. But a line must exist somewhere, and in my opinion joking about the devastation of a battle, on the anniversary of the event, takes the frivolity too far. I know Howcheng is a diligent volunteer an On this day, because I have seen his work there many times before. I am certainly not baying for blood. I just wish to put this on the record so that a similar mistake is not made in the name of humour next year. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 07:08, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I would like to note that I didn't write either of those hooks, although I did schedule them. Both blurbs have made previous appearances and if there were complaints about them in the past, they're buried in edit histories or archives. There's nothing about them on WT:Selected anniversaries/April 1 so it was reasonable to assume that it would be similar this time around. howcheng {chat} 07:17, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for the explanation. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 07:26, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Maybe could ask howcheng to apologise to all Chinese people (individually) for his faux pas. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:02, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

And not a peep about Did_you_know_nominations/Dr._Young's_Ideal_Rectal_Dilators being forcibly withdrawn. I feel cheated. EEng (talk) 23:10, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

'Competence is required' issues with User:Mishae[edit]

Blocked for one month, per discussion here and the completely unacceptable Nazi comparison. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:36, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mishae (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is a long-term Wikipedian who started editing in 2009; he's been around for long enough that he should know, broadly-speaking, what to do (and what not to do), and how to engage with other users, and the broad-strokes idea of what policy permits and prohibits and where to go if you're not sure. Despite this, Mishae is consistently incapable of engaging with other users in a productive manner, and makes endless newbie-like mistakes that drain the energies of other good-faith contributors.

In February 2015, Mishae decided there was a policy that said it was preferable to have a dead link than a link to an archived version of a page, because that's what he thought "you can cite offline sources" meant. The same month, he made an edit that altered content that he marked as minor; when a user asked him to please mark such edits as major edits, he informed them that people are actively prohibited from templating experienced users, and kept leaving them messages over and over again until the user had to ask Mishae to leave. Mishae responded by opening up a thread on my talkpage in which he explained that, as the more experienced user, he should get to be the one templating people.

Mishae has also run into nearly endless copyright problems, and again demonstrated a refusal to admit fault when they occur; in December 2014 he was told an article of his was a copyright violation and tried to justify it by saying that it wasn't a copyright violation, it was close paraphrasing of a copyrighted source. This was followed by copyright violation cautions and notes on 24 February and 1 March of this year, and preceded by a warning on 18 December. That's four distinct articles in a 3-month span, with no real learning between their creations. That's while not understanding how references work despite having, again, been editing for six years.

The final straw, however, was how Mishae has been treating User:Kingofaces43. Mishae decided to remove the Wikiproject Insect tag from a large number of pages. Kingofaces43, seeing this, did exactly what we'd ask any user to do; they politely asked Mishae to stop and opened a discussion about it on the relevant talkpage so people could discuss what the best approach here, was. And then warned Mishae again, because while the discussion was ongoing, Mishae continued making the changes. And then a third time because, with the discussion still going on, and after two warnings, Mishae continued making the edits. At which point Mishae admitted his edits were potentially disruptive, called Kingofaces43 a troll, and asked me to step in - which I promptly did to explain that the edits were problematic, with Mishae taking away from that: "thank you! I'm glad my edits aren't vandalism".

I am, at this point, completely exhausted in dealing with Mishae, which I would mind less if he wasn't also draining energy from other users attempting to engage in good faith. There is a consistent pattern here; Mishae overestimates his own knowledge, patronises other users when they correct his mistakes, denies that they are mistakes, and aggressively insists that he is right even when it's clear to everyone else in the conversation that he is wrong. This is deeply taxing, and from a newcomer would be potentially understandable, but is not tolerable in someone who has been here for over half a decade. Mishae adds value to the encyclopedia - but when he is wrong, he sucks in a lot of time and energy dealing with it, and consistently fails to learn from his failures.

  • I would like the review of this user and their contributions by other people, additional perspectives on their attitude and competency from people who have dealt with him (or who are coming to this for the first time, here), and I would like the ultimate question to be around making a competence block. This has gone on for long enough. Ironholds (talk) 23:04, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Mishae has been doing complex gnomish changes that are completely wrong-headed, as in the example of the Insects project. See User talk:Mishae#Wikiproject Insect and see if you can make heads or tails of his reasoning. Somehow, he needs to stop doing this kind of thing, but it may not be easy to persuade him. Unfortunately a competence block would be the obvious answer. EdJohnston (talk) 23:41, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Per EdJohnston, a competence block may be necessary but I'd like to see what Mishae has to say. Blackmane (talk) 23:47, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Mishae should take temporary retirement from what he is currently doing, he should learn more, and avoid these circumstances. Per Blackmane, I would also hear Mishae. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 23:58, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Mishae's editing was also questioned in the WP:PLANTS archives. He edits quite rapidly and the information added is often wrong, misleading, or hard to follow. Mishae has shown some willingness to change his behavior, but it took far too long to convince him that removing spaces and newline characters wasn't a worthwhile task and was actually disruptive (and now that I mention it, I noticed a few days ago that he was at it again, though in a less disruptive manner that left the structure intact, e.g. diff). He edited thousands of articles in that way, placing the infobox text on just a few lines which made it harder to edit them. After the AN/I discussion about this, he made little effort to retrace his steps and undo the damage. He is sometimes combative and has trouble communicating with other editors, often perceiving insults where there are none. I have seen many editors try and fail to facilitate discussions with other editors who come to his talk page to ask a question or make a suggestion -- they often burn out rather quickly. After so long and so many issues, I do not think that any amount of coaching will produce better edits or improve interactions with other editors. Mishae gets into trouble mostly when he's trying to perform a large number of gnomish edits. The only way I could see his continued participation in the project as a benefit to it would be a restriction in the number of edits he could make in one day, thus forcing him to focus on broader improvements to articles. Gnoming is certainly beneficial but not when done hastily and carelessly. I agree with other editors here that a competence block may be the only solution to prevent further disruption. Rkitko (talk) 00:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Before anything is done here I'd like to see what Mishae has to say. Caden cool 02:17, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • I see on his user page that Mishae has a box saying "This user is autistic". Not saying that's an excuse, but it could factor in his apparent inability to interact well with other people. Squinge (talk) 09:49, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
    Ah, and he also says "I'm autistic, and I have cerebral palsy as well". Squinge (talk) 09:50, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
    Let's give him the benefit of the doubt, but not too much. Autism could sometimes carry communication issues with it. Epic Genius (talk) 16:13, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • ...user boxes should not be treated as fact, that's right isn't it Caden? CassiantoTalk 21:24, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Cass where did I say that? Anyway I thought it was understood that you were not going to follow me around anymore? Caden cool 21:48, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
I shall go wherever I like and talk to whom I like. This unwritten rule of "not following you around" is understood by nobody other than you; get over yourself. CassiantoTalk 22:46, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Keep it up Cass and it wont be long before you are blocked again for personal attacks or maybe this time it will be for harassing and stalking. God knows you have a big block log already. Guess it will just get bigger at the rate you are going, right? Caden cool 23:07, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Why are you taking the moral fucking high ground with me Caden when you are saying things like this and this to BMK. It appears you are winning no friends here so run along, there's a good boy. CassiantoTalk 00:02, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

I would like to thank everyone for taking time to discuss my issue. I understand that my behavior was disruptive and I am deeply sorry. (It was partly due to my condition.) Working on the project is an important part of my life and I would like to be helpful. I think that I should cut down my gnomish edits and focus on creating quality contents (3-4 a week). I'm also able to make contributions in archiving of dead links, with which I didn't have an issues, and even was awarded for it. I understand that everyone is very busy but it would help me if I could contact someone if problems arise.--Mishae (talk) 21:16, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I'd also like you to contribute productively, but the examples you pick don't say much about your willingness to understand what the problem is here. The problem is not the edits - the problem is the attitude you take when people try to talk to you about them. And the two examples you've chosen - quality content contributions and dead links - would be more meaningful if it wasn't for the fact that the quality content contributions are described in the very first message in this thread, as creating copyright problems, and the dead link work is surfaced as an example of the attitude you take when contradicted by individual editors. This is not giving me the impression that you grok the problem, here. Ironholds (talk) 22:47, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
@Ironholds: At the very top of the thread you said that where to go if you're not sure. You know, I tried to invite user @Koavf: for a discussion on my talkpage, unfortunately he never replied. Back in 2014 I tried to ask user @Worm That Turned: (or was it @Kudpung:) for some guidance when it came to my comments, and got nothing in response. As of now Kudpung's status is busy, but when I tried to ask him back then, he was online. I also tried to reach out to @Ryan Vesey: but none of the above editors were available. As for copyright that one that I did in March 2015 was just a bot error, for which I shouldn't be blamed since it was bot reading reference posting as copyvio (I can't invent a link, can I)? As for the rest, yes I admit, it was my fault, but I asked a user for assistance and he helped me. I also would like to note that I never had an issue with a contributor about dead links. Please understand that I am trying to follow the rules and promise not to be confrontational in the future.--Mishae (talk) 23:38, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
...yes, you did. You got in a dispute with an editor because they kept adding links to an archive site you were unfamiliar with, and you decided that the policy around using offline sources meant deadlinks were preferable to archives you didn't know. If you can't remember it, it's, again, in the first message in this section. And, yes, you reach out a lot, but I note that this often comes after you have got in a dispute, with an attitude of "let me call in my older brother, he'll sort you out", and not to avoid disputes in the first place. Ironholds (talk) 03:45, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Mishae's a tough case and perhaps I shouldn't be commenting on it because I've been away so long, but I really wonder if there's something that can be done. It seems like (and seemed like back when I was more familiar with the issues) that Mishae's main problem isn't his edits. His main problem is that he responds poorly to any questioning of his edits. The question I have is does he respond at all? The big problem that he had two years ago was that he consistently made edits where all he did was remove spaces. Is this still occurring? If not, it shows that he is at least responsive in some manner. Either way, WP:COMPETENCE is still an issue. Mishae has expressed a desire to make only substantial edits for 3-4 weeks. I think something like a topic ban from any namespace other than his user space could help solve this problem. Allow him to do nothing but create articles for a while and perhaps he'll focus more on creation and less on the gnomish edits that often result in problems. from I know we don't make punitive blocks, but in situations like these I think punitive blocks can be preventative. This was certainly the case with me, I was blocked for ten days and as a result came back as a productive editor. Perhaps one or both of these options could be a helpful short term solution. Further, we should be more clear with Mishae that further problems after this will result in a longer month to year long block or a ban. Ryan Vesey 00:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
    • Hi @Ryan Vesey: I personally decided that I should focus on archiving and content creation/improvement (like major editing) rather than gnoming around (unless archiving is partly gnoming?). Perhaps WikiProject Insects was the final straw in my gnomish editing. I don't like the way that you propose topic ban, since when I did archiving I didn't got in any trouble and even was awarded. I can be trusted with my article creations but I need some guidance in creating copyvio free and grammatically good article (that's when I asked Ironholds, and got redirected to a different editor who helped me clean up copyvios). I once created a great article with @Animalparty:, and you know, I didn't have a single issue with that user. I also didn't got into any arguments with @EricEnfermero: when it came to creating Panos Kalnis article. So, as you can see, I am trying to improve gradually. Unfortunately different editors treat me differently: Some issue me a warning in such a tone that I accelerate. Is it something that I can try to work on? Yes, but I need someone to be present so that when I do get into an argument, I wont be alone. I do occasionally ask for help when conflict arises. Problem is, is that when I ask someone for assistance, I don't get it. I'm glad that you came back, and I am sorry that you see me like this. :( As a side note; I think topic bans are for vandals who engage too much into content addition/removal without consensus agreement. Correct me if I wrong though. :)--Mishae (talk) 01:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
    • As far as @Rkitko:'s diff goes, I was thanked via notification by @Benny White: for it. With that said, I think that user Rkitko should stop complaining about such minor occurrences. As a side joke, people who issue such concerns and do it often, end up being old faster than others. :) I hope that Rkitko will not hold a grudge against me for this joke.--Mishae (talk) 01:52, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
      • We had some difficulties on the Kalnis article. After I fixed some grammar and took out what I felt were a couple of non-notable/unencyclopedic assertions, you reverted and described the edit as "a complete vandalism" in the edit summary. We came to a good understanding and I didn't hold any ongoing grudge, but I am surprised that you would use the Kalnis article as an example of strong teamwork. In general, academic BLPs can be a difficult area. There is confusing terminology in that area and any of us could make a mistake, so that makes it important to remain open to feedback from other editors. EricEnfermero (Talk) 02:18, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
        • @EricEnfermero: O.K. Perhaps I supposed to have said one of the strongest. I'm glad that you don't hold a grudge, and I need to point out that the reason why I called his edits as a complete vandalism was because I saw him removing over 500 bites of content. By removing such amount he gave me a reason to believe that vandalism have occurred, but after that we had peaceful discussion and issue got resolved. So, in short, some editors are easier for me to talk to then others. Plus, its not easy to communicate with editors when some of them are away and don't even have an alternative on how to reach them. I would like to ask if its possible for someone to give me one of the editors Skypes, which will benefit this project a lot. That way, if I will have an issue with someone, I can paste a link into Skype message and notify an editor for immediate response that way, even if he will be away.--Mishae (talk) 02:34, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
          • I hope you don't mind a comment from me, Mishae, but in the current dispute you had @Ironholds: trying to help you on your talk page while the argument was hot. But you didn't listen, you just carried on insisting you were right and argued with him too. Can you see why that might argue against your idea that having someone to turn to for help could solve your problems? Squinge (talk) 11:02, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

@Mishae: For what it's worth, I haven't known Mishae to be a vandal or someone who is deliberately trying to make the encyclopedia worse. I don't know that I have the time to assist in this particular case, though. —Justin (koavf)TCM 03:04, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

            • @Ironholds: Where is the diff of this: In February 2015, Mishae decided there was a policy that said it was preferable to have a dead link than a link to an archived version of a page, because that's what he thought "you can cite offline sources" meant. I remember it differently. I remember that I removed dead link instead of archiving, but now I got more experience with it and am confident to continue my good editing. Please stop making statementsa which were one time-only and bring them up here, as I was some kind of a vandal that came to destroy this project. Even if it did happen, I do remember that there was an instance when I removed archived version probably because that archived link was dead, because I was confused, a simple nudge in the right direction did helped me. And now you are bringing it all up again.--Mishae (talk) 20:27, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Mishae, here's how you know I don't think you're a vandal:

  1. I didn't just have you blocked at AIV;
  2. I said, in the opening section you keep implying you've read, that you add value to the encyclopedia;
  3. See (1, 2).

And yes, I misremembered; you did remove the dead link over using the archive. I'm not sure how that's much of an improvement. And yes, the nudge in the right direction helped you, and yes, I am bringing it up again, because the attitude you displayed in that conversation is part of a very wide pattern that's attested to by multiple users in this discussion. If you genuinely don't think that patterns are valuable in indicating a direction forward, I...really don't know what to say to you.

If what you needed was a simple nudge, I would nudge. I have nudge; I challenge anyone here to take a look at my talkpage archive and tell me I haven't consistently been providing nudges to you. But however many I provide, there are always more things to do, and they can always be traced to the same core problems: that despite vast editing experience, you consistently misunderstand or are ignorant of the most basic policy, and see no need to inform yourself before responding in disagreements, and that your attitude with other users is competitive, hierarchical and has a chilling effect on their contributions by making it actively unpleasant for them to interact during disagreements. Ironholds (talk) 20:38, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

No, I am not saying that you called me a vandal, but users Rkitko, EdJohnston, and Blackmane brought up negative impression on me saying nothing positive. I'm not looking for encouragement, but I just feel that they feel that they are fluffy and nice and I am a monster who shouldn't be a part of this team. As for core problems, everyone have them. I could not think of a single editor who wouldn't be without core problems being present. For me its especially difficult. I know that a normal person can hide his core problems and pretend like nothing happened, but for me its harder. Having a disability is not an excuse, but living with it is not easy. Mind if I bring @LRD NO:, @RGloucester: and @Dkreisst: to this discussion? Also I had a constructive editing with user @Animalparty:: on an article called Gonzalo Giribet.--Mishae (talk) 21:15, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I was hoping to stay out of this ANI being in the thick of attempting to work with Mishae, but the situation doesn't look to be improving. Mishae is still engaging in sniping and battleground behavior [76] [77], claiming WP:DONTLIKEIT when an editor disagrees with them instead of actually addressing what the issues are [78], it's not me it's you, etc. It doesn't appear this editor can edit in a collaborative manner when they want to do something that others disagree about and resorts to lashing out instead. WP:IDHT seems prevalent when actual questions are posed as to what a specific problem is and how to address it while this editor seems to have a narrow "This is what I want" type of and how dare you think otherwise focus instead.

I made it clear at fist I didn't want to seek a block for Mishae when I warned them awhile ago now [79], but given that there's actually a lot of history of this behavior with it persisting up to now even with warnings, I'm not sure if there are really any other options at this point. Topic bans or interaction bans wouldn't seem to be the right scope either. I'll support a block if others think that's the course to go to prevent this toxic atmosphere. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

@Kingofaces43: I argue with you only because you don't hear it. I brought legitimate examples why the template should be removed, yet you continued to argue that my comments weren't relevant or can be solved the other way. Users @AshLin: and @Gug01: supported my idea, and yet you decided that it should be your way still. Moreover, he accused me of drama, and adversarial behavior, and yet how does he behave? Look at his support of a block in this discussion. To me, user Kingofaces43 is an editor who likes to support blocks on any editors that he finds undesirable. Tell me why you want this template to be present, right here, in this discussion? Because of entomologists that are blind and stupid in your opinion to find an insect they are looking for? Because that was one of your reasons. As for toxic atmosphere that was only between you and me. Maybe we just don't understand each other? Either way, you see it one way, I see it different way. I can be wrong too but not in this discussion. :)
I've heard you plenty fine, and I've been trying to work through the problems you've been bringing up, their validity, and how to address them calmly and by the book. Hearing does not mean accepting what someone argues for, but acknowledging why they brought it up and seeing how it needs to be addressed. Sometimes that's going to mean addressing the things you see as issues an entirely different way, or not seeing them as something that's a valid concern. You're still approaching this too hot-headed with the "weren't relevant" common as it seems you're still not getting it that some of the things you are bringing up aren't decisions to make at the current Wikiproject, but at the other one. We don't make decisions at one Wikiproject for another. Misinterpreting comments as some slight to you is not helping the situation. You're trying to fight your viewpoint in moreso than trying to actually work out what the actual problems. The rest of us are handling it respectfully regardless of what we think, but you are here because you are not doing that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:18, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
@Mishae: & @Kingofaces43:. My POV is neither for or against either your stands. I keep the focus on the article rather than people. Imho articles of WikiProject Beetles which are definitely relevant to the parent WikiProject Insects should have both tags as both editors tacking Coleoptera and Insects overall will be improving those articles. In the matter of species articles, I hold the opinion that adding WikiProject tags may not tangibly help the article. So its an intermediate position though I had not meant it to be a via media. I was opining having been requested by Mishae. As such, if I do have to take a side, I stand with Kingofaces43's POV as adding Insect tags may improve the chances of the article for improvement. AshLin (talk) 07:22, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
@AshLin: What a bald move! First I read your comment, and I assumed that your POV was neutral, now I am seeing you siding with him too. Why? Were you paid by him to be on his side? I'm very disappointed.--Mishae (talk) 15:28, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
@Mishae:, I'm not on his side or your side but only on the side of what is good for the encyclopaedia. Please be WP:CIVIL. There is no excuse for your accusing me of being bribed by @Kingofaces43:. Desist from personal attacks or I'll start a separate ANI on your misbehaviour. AshLin (talk) 16:13, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
I probably didn't knew it was a personal attack, sorry, but threats of separate ANI is not better for me or you. Unless you just want to punish me for every fart I make, and this is not good. I maybe overreacted, but you have no right to threaten me with another ANI, one is enough headache for me as it is.--Mishae (talk) 18:19, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps I should apologize to Kingofaces43 for my behavior, and hopefully a block wont follow. So, if its possible, please let Kingofaces43 know that I am sorry for any issues that I have caused. I will now wait patiently for decision.--Mishae (talk) 21:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
At this point I think the community really needs to weigh in. There's no doubt you're approaching this in a good faith manner, but actions done in good faith can still be disruptive. That's what this posting is primarily about, so apologizing, while helpful, isn't going to necessarily close this. We need to figure out out how to solve this problem by figuring out how to solve the persistent behavior issues to address the key point here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:18, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Question for admins. Mishae is continuing to edit war by replacing tags on a massive number of articles. What's the best way to stop this edit warring when it's clear they won't listen? They've been warned about this on their talk page that they need to get consensus for these widespread changes at the Wikiproject first (which there isn't yet). They've ignored that warning on their talk page at least three times now. Is this kind of behavior something that WP:AIV is better suited for considering the number of edits the user is making? See: [80]. I'm not sure where the best place is to address this more immediate issue while attempting to discuss general behavior or even reach a consensus at the Wikiproject. There aren't clear reverts since I just warned them to stop rather than attempting to revert all the mass changes, but would this be more appropriate at AN3? Mishae is going through a massive number of articles where I'm thinking some admin tool might be needed to restore to the previous versions rather than someone going through and clicking undo in each case. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:22, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
    • Comment User @Kingofaces43: still assumes that I am vandal. @Koavf: I'm still treating like a vandal and this editor above is even trying to convince the admins to block me even if I contribute constructively and not violating 3RR rule! I'm shocked of accusation of edit warring too, and would like to ask admins to block the above accuser to participate in this debate!--Mishae (talk) 03:52, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
To clarify, I'm not calling you edits vandalism, but disruptive the way you are doing them. I mentioned the vandalism board because they often deal with mass edits done by users. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:50, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
      • @Mishae: I'm making this comment as an entirely uninvolved editor. I hope you understand what I am going to say. The issue isn't vandalism. If people are still using that word in the past few minutes, I apologize for them. It is not evident you are intending to harm Wikipedia. Still, good-faith edits can still be unproductive. The issue here, as I see it, is that the results of your actions (rather than the intent) is highly problematic. Multiple people are telling you "slow down and stop doing XXXX" If you keep doing XXXX, that's a problem, even if you mean well. When people say "Maybe you should stop doing that because you aren't doing it right", your best course of action is to listen to them and stop doing whatever it is you were doing wrong. The issue is not vandalism, so defending yourself against that is a non-starter: you wouldn't be blocked for vandalism per se, because this isn't a vandalism issue. However, saying that doesn't mean you won't be blocked. There's other reasons to be blocked besides vandalism and 3RR. You can also be blocked for repeatedly ignoring the good faith requests of others to stop some pattern of editing and discuss before continuing. When people say "Hey there, slow down because I think you're doing it wrong", and you just ignore them, that's also not good. Please listen to these other editors when they ask you to stop doing something, and politely ask them back why they wanted you to stop. They'll explain what you did wrong, and so long as you don't do it wrong again, we'll have no further problems. The issue here is that you've been told exactly that numero