Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive887

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User:Drmargi yet again[edit]

NO ACTION
Things were said, feelings were hurt... We will hope that this is the end of this. If not, parties are welcome to return to ANI with new evidence at a later date. (non-admin closure) --IJBall (talk) 00:09, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

drmargi has a serious issue with WP:NPA and insults. It all started when with a currently closed ANI report made by User:Unframboise. Like any user, some would add input on the situation, and I did. Although, this user's behavior is far from appropriate and tolerant. On their talk page, they insulted the user Unframboise for being from the UK and has no acknowledgement on American entertainment here here. I brought this issue up on my comment from the ANI report, citing that it does not matter where you're from to edit on Wikipedia for whatever. I even asked them that I am from Canada, does this apply to me as well? I thoroughly explained that the user followed every guideline from WP:SOURCES and WP:Verify. I told them that you don't need to be American to participate on American-based articles from media to people to law and so on. However, they have continued to insult the users involved in the report and/or the discussion of the talk page from the ANI report. This is their message. They called the users petulant, adolescents, and accused me of making the ANI report about myself. This threw me off guard as I did not think a person with over 25k edits would violate WP:NPA. I became offended, since their personal attacks were getting out of hand. I warned them on their talk page per WP:NPA. I explained that their insults were unnecessary and uncivil. I again told them that it does not matter what your age is, the number of edits you have, the years of experience, your current status on Wikipedia or where you're from to edit on Wikipedia. I recommended them to learn to calm down when users are complaining about them. One is more than capable to say otherwise other than insults. I gave them one warning before I reported. However, they removed the warning and insulted me once again per their edit summary: "How infantile can you be? A bit of Extra-Strength "Teen Spirit" Troll Be Gone handles those without the maturity to know what they're talking about." by calling me infantile and so on. Then after noticing them of the ANI report, they claimed it as childish here. This behavior is seriously unacceptable, especially when handling ANI reports. This user clearly shows signs of not being able to be calm and handle reports properly. I am at a loss on what to do after trying to reason with them and show them that insulting users is not the right path, but they have continued to do so. Callmemirela (Talk) 03:33, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Comment I concur with Callmemirela's assessment of Drmargi's personal attacks and insults. Even after a cool down period, her comments to and about other editors seem to be getting worse rather than better. Frankly, I would expect better behavior from someone who has been a Wikipedia editor for more than 8 years and advertises on their user page as having a doctorate in psychology. They've been reminded very recently that making such cutting remarks in talk pages and in edit summaries rather than discussing civilly on talk pages is preferable [1]. As the report above documents, they have not heeded that advice. I have no desire to see Drmargi blocked or sanctioned, but I would like to see her be nicer to editors. Curt and cold is one thing. She's just rude and mean spirited way too frequently, in my opinion. -- WV 03:47, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm not seeing any real evidence here. I looked at the Drmargi and I'm not seeing him insult anyone for being from the UK.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 05:33, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
It's no exactly an insult, but rather what comes after that. Drmargi used the argument that Umfranboise is from the UK to claim they have no acknowledgement of American entertainment here. Is there a rule against English editors to edit on American articles? No. Callmemirela (Talk) 09:36, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
I've never seen any evidence of Drmargi insulting me, so I don't understand the claim that she has. From what I can gather, this is an ongoing issue arising from the attempts by some editors to change content at CSI: Cyber based on some pretty weak sources. Drmargi has asked repeatedly for other editors to let the issue go (it was supposedly resolved) but it just continues. --AussieLegend () 09:26, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
Here: "But you can't discuss when three petulant adolescents are throwing insults at one another, two of whom are unwilling to abide by a litany of editing, civility and discussion practices, and the third of whom is just in it to win at any cost. (Leaving aside the fourth adolescent who decided to make it all about her on ANI.)" You were apart of the discussion and there were four users (including myself) adding input on the report... Looking back, I suppose this is about the article and not the ANI report? Nonetheless, it still contains insults. I would have known if this was for the ANI report or the article if the user would just compromise instead of calling me infantile, claiming that I don't know what I am talking about and whatnot. Callmemirela (Talk) 09:36, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
I didn't participate in the discussion at Talk:CSI: Cyber. My only contribution to the page was adding {{reflist talk}} to fix the position of some references.[2] My contributions at the ANI discussions were almost as minimal,[3][4] so I doubt it was me that was being referred to. --AussieLegend () 13:59, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
I meant the discussion on the ANI report about Drmargi made by Unframboise, not the discussion on the talk page. Regardless, I don't know who the insults were directed at, but it had targets. I'll remove that section of my report, but I stand on the insults. Callmemirela (Talk) 14:14, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
No, Callmemirela, you misunderstand the UK statement. They are indicating that the Editor they are talking about knows nothing about American Entertainment. The Possible reason for this lack of knowledge is because the person is from the UK. They aren't suggesting that English folks can't edit an American article. Your English language comprehension seems to be a little lacking. You are picking up on things that aren't there. The other comments don't seem to be actionable either. I would recommend that you drop this. There is no exemption for reporters.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 10:35, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
The UK comment is rather offensive. It doesn't matter where you're from to edit on Wikipedia. Just because you're from the UK it doesn't mean you shouldn't edit on American articles or you don't know anything about American entertainment and so on. I'm from Canada, does it apply to me as well? That's what pisses me off with that comment. Quite frankly, I am not dropping this because Drmargi is rather rude and uncivil with people. Calling people adolescents, petulants, selfish, childish? There are more ways to communicate with people rather than using insults. If anyone is capable to communicate properly, so could have Drmargi. This is why I brought it here. I could only imagine their insults getting worse or never stops as the years go on (personal opinion). Drmargi could have easily set the situation straight and told me otherwise. The user refused and insulted me. Again, WP:NPA. Callmemirela (Talk) 13:41, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
Once again, Deadline.com is not a "weak" source. Beyond that, I agree that other editors should let this go, and disengage for a while. If any patterns of behavior continue, they are free to return to ANI with the evidence at a later date. --IJBall (talk) 16:35, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree with Callmemirela, after looking through the editors last 50 edits everyone of them are basically made to "pick fights" with others users. --BabbaQ (talk) 06:50, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
I find User:Drmargi's statement about adolescent extremely offensive and think that Wikipedia is no place for such comments. Whatismore, she has previously threatened me on my talk page that I will get a warning if I continue to act like I do, so shouldn't this be a two-way street? Shouldn't she be forced to follow the same rules and be sanctioned in the same way when she fails to? The worst thing is, that she is obviously aware of her inappropriate behaviour, since she keeps pointing users to WP:NPA and WP:CIV. Is she allowed to say/do whatever she wants just because she is a Senior Editor?
And personally, I find the connection between a country of residence (UK) and "country of the article" (USA) offensive, too. Sources we were all citing are Internet sources, available worldwide to everyone, why should someone who is physically closer to the source have more knowledge about its reliability? I mean, is it more qualified to judge Hollywood Reporter someone from Tijuana (because he's closer) or someone from New York (because he's in the same country)? Irrelevant if you ask me...
Also, about her involvement in discussions about articles' edits. She tends to revert changes and point the users to the Talk page, where she states she does not agree with the edit and the disappears, with that she fails to comply with WP:BRD and with WP:CON and ultimately, she is taking advantage of WP:STATUSQUO because the article can't be edited until consensus has been achieved, and it can't be achieved if one side of the discussions is not even involved in it. Maticsg1 (talk) 09:51, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox[edit]

Discussion closed until SandyGeorgia returns from hiatus to contribute. In the meantime, the contentious material has already been deleted. There's nothing else to do here until SandyGeorgia returns to contribute to the discussion. --Jayron32 03:33, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In December 2013, User:Petrarchan47 and myself were involved in a dispute on medical cannabis with User:SandyGeorgia. Unbeknownst to me, SandyGeorgia began keeping a list of negative (and biased) material about the both of us in her sandbox page. Per WP:POLEMIC, "statements attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons" and "material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws" should be removed if not used in a timely manner. "Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if they will not be imminently used, and the same once no longer needed."

Here is the full list of diffs of the disputed edits:

  • 05:18, 5 December 2013[5]
  • 15:11, 7 December 2013[6]
  • 23:50, 8 December 2013[7]
  • 03:22, 9 December 2013[8]
  • 21:35, 9 December 2013[9]
  • 02:11, 11 December 2013[10]
  • 18:40, 11 December 2013[11]
  • 01:16, 12 December 2013[12]
  • 03:32, 17 December 2013[13]
  • 03:35, 17 December 2013[14]
  • 03:36, 17 December 2013[15]

Petrarchan47 requested deletion of the material mentioning her at 03:01, 24 May 2015.[16] However, because this material is from December 2013 and it is now May 2015 and no action has been taken since that time, I have followed the guidance and recommendations given at WP:POLEMIC and blanked it from SandyGeorgia's sandbox.[17] I have brought this here for community review. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 23:32, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

As much as I respect Sandy I have to say this is pretty conclusive. I feel a warning would suffice in this instance, but if a block must be imposed, it shouldn't be a long one. It's unusual to have the material for so long, so perhaps an explanation should be in order as well.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm guessing she just forgot about it. As long as it remains blanked (if she needs access to it, it's in the page history) I'm happy with the outcome. I don't see any need for a block. Viriditas (talk) 00:29, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
This reminds me a lot of other things that have happened recently, I hope it is kept blanked and also hope editors know not to collect enemy lists here on Wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:36, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Time out. Unless I am misreading something, SandyGeorgia was asked to delete this material at "03:01 on 24 May 2015." That is less than two days ago. Checking Special:Contributions/SandyGeorgia reflects that she last edited on 23 May 2015, i.e., two and one-half days ago. That is not an unreasonable time for someone to be offline, and I'm not sure why this was brought here before SandyGeorgia had a chance to see the request on her talkpage and respond to it. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:38, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

(ec)I think it is typical in these cases to allow the editor to delete the material rather than having an involved party delete the contents of a user page. I'd have been more comfortable if an editor who wasn't involved in this dispute had taken action here if SandyGeorgia didn't respond to the request. Liz Read! Talk! 00:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
(ec) SandyGeorgia has not edited since May 23, the day before the request was filed on her talk page. A block is definitely not warranted. I have mixed feelings about removing the material without her consent while she is away. If the material has been there since December 2013, why the sudden urgency to remove it? -- Diannaa (talk) 00:40, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Why the sudden urgency? It's been there since December 2013, it's inaccurate, it's biased, and it makes claims about editors that aren't true. I removed it per WP:POLEMIC. Is there a sudden urgency to restore it? Viriditas (talk) 00:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Just so it's clear, I didn't recommend a block, only a warning. I think the info should stay removed. Other than that, I see no any action needed as long as this activity doesn't continue.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:57, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Viriditas, my question to you is why you, an involved party, deleted the content before you had heard a response from SandyGeorgia. If there was an immediate need to remove the material (and I'm not sure there was), you should have waited for a response to this complaint at AN/I or spoken to an uninvolved administrator. I'm sure why it had to be you who leaped in and deleted the material. Liz Read! Talk! 01:01, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I cant speak for Viriditas but seeing red would be an understandable response. This content is over 2 years old though why make a fuss over it now? In my opinion the material can be restored yes but Sandy should delete it herself if that happens. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:09, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I would appreciate an answer to my question. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:02, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't see a question. You said, "I'm not sure why this was brought here before SandyGeorgia had a chance to see the request on her talkpage and respond to it." That request on Sandy's talk page concerned Petrarchan47's request to have material about her removed from Sandy's sandbox. It has nothing to do with me. I brought this request here after having read the sandbox and noticed that it mentioned both myself and Petrarchan47. Furthermore, the diffs above aren't even relevant, accurate, or significant, and the edit summaries consist of personal attacks and derision. It appears the material was added by SandyGeorgia to her sandbox as an "enemy list" in December 2013 after being involved in a personal dispute with myself and Petrarchan47 and has no business being on Wikipedia after years without action. That's why I brought it here. I don't see why my actions should be tied to what Petrarchan47 is doing or what Sandy might or might not do in the future. In fact, I don't see any connection between either of those things. I'm my own person. Will Sandy remove it in the future? I have no idea. I removed it and brought my actions here for review. Viriditas (talk) 01:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

"Enemy list"! Looks more like she was preparing to open an RFC/u against the both of you and she forgot about it.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 01:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Preparing an RFC/u based on false claims and nonexistent diffs? I think not. Good luck trying to find one, single actionable diff from that dispute. It doesn't exist. Viriditas (talk) 01:24, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Sandy has recently stated in several places that she was planning to take a few weeks off and be out of touch. I can't help but wonder if the timing of this has something to do with the knowledge that she is not available to participate in the discussion. Formerly 98 talk|contribs|COI Statement 01:29, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I can see you are doing a great job at WP:AGF. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:30, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
This is where we discuss user behavior. We try to follow AGF, but its a legitimate issue to raise here at ANI. Formerly 98 talk|contribs|COI Statement 01:32, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I understand that, but it would help if you provide some evidence of this in the form of a diff, otherwise it is just speculative. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:33, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Agreed, it is largely speculation. Anyways, I don't see the issue here. The content was removed for just reasons. All that is needed is for Sandy to explain her motives, but that is about it. I don't see any other wrongdoing.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I guess I'd just say that since the material has already been taken down, why not wait till she is back to hold this discussion? Formerly 98 talk|contribs|COI Statement 01:44, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Because the content was there for too long and needed to be taken down. The discussion is to confirm whether it was justly done.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:46, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
At this point I would let it go, and also agree that no action should be taken. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:49, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't think you can have that discussion without Sandy's participation, so Move to close this discussion. Formerly 98 talk|contribs|COI Statement 03:28, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I have often thought that if editors don't want things to be said about them, then they should be careful not to do things that might attract comment.
I had an issue once where an editor had something written on a User page which was only a problem because it was in a place where it couldn't be replied to. Was that the problem?
Petrarchan47 Viriditas can you point to interactions between you and SandyGeorgia that indicate any attempt to get on with each other?
WP:Polemic presents: "Polemical statements unrelated to Wikipedia, or statements attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities (these are generally considered divisive and removed, and reintroducing them is often considered disruptive)". How do you think that this applies?
To me you could easily comment that you see that a content is being developed and to mention that such content should not be presented in actual contravention of WP:POLEMIC.
I have long objected that Wikipedia supports private email which can blatantly WP:canvass or simply bitch about other editors. Its also relevant to note that Wikipedia is accessed by electronic devices that typically have their own memories. Anything that SandyG has written here could fairly easily have been written somewhere else.
If you think that an editor has taken a negative view of you then an approach to take may be to remind them of positive things you have done and non-negative involvements you have had. GregKaye 03:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
no means no --Jayron32 00:52, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I disagree that this is polemic at all, secondly, this ANI request was filed on the 24th, she publicly said she's be traveling during this time ? I'd say put the page back how she left it and give her a chance to respond. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 15:49, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Clearly, "polemic" and WP:POLEMIC are not the same thing. Viriditas (talk) 18:16, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Actually, no. WP:POLEMIC actually uses Polemic as part of it's description and includes " The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner. " as part of the Wikipedia definition of WP:POLEMIC. What was removed was, in fact, a small compliation of factual evidence (diffs) which is actually permitted. I would make a motion that Viriditas self revert his removal of diffs in Sandy Georgia's sandbox and allow her to respond to what's being discussed. It's not like she's a known vandal or has a bad history at all with Wikipedia. Quite the opposite, also, as she stated she's on vacation at this point, so I wouldn't expect her to check in while she was. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 10:59, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
This is far from the first time she's compiled an enemies list. As one of the people about whom she's done it in the past, I am considering an arbitration request, but am unsure I can spare the attention from more important things. Awaiting a response before acting.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:28, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
Awaiting a response from who? Sandy is away from Wikipedia right now. Liz Read! Talk! 00:48, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Ban on Ronn Torossian to be extended to his company?[edit]

Ronn Torossian is both a notable PR person and an Wikipedia editor with a long history of sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry that saw them banned from Wikipedia. That obviously didn't stop them from editing Wikipedia. Now I can to some degree understand that Mr. Torossian is unhappy with our article about him, though it's well-sourced and legal threats are not acceptable. However, his latest spate of sockpuppets or meatpuppets also engaged in a smear campaign against Torossian's personal and professional opponents, including various competitors of his company 5W PR and the New Israel Fund, an organization Torossian criticized over their politics at that time. In fact, here is the Torossian sock (or meatpuppet) citing a Torossian-written opinion piece to add negative content to a direct competitor. And for good measure, an utterly deceptive edit summary by that same sock. Another sock edited an article on a 5W PR client without disclosing their affiliation, in violation of the terms of use. For quite some time I have tolerated Torossian's sockpuppetry since there were some genuine BLP concerns in his article. However, his criticism of that article doesn't stop there, and his company seems to routinely engage in abuse of Wikipedia for unethical purposes, in violation of both our content policies and the Terms of Use. As I said Torossian himself is banned already. I hereby propose extending that ban to all of 5W Public Relations and its employees, along the lines of Wiki-PR. That would include User:Judae1 who serves as the "good hand" account while his co-workers engage in meatpuppetry and deception; at the very least he should be topic-banned from anything related to Torossian, 5W PR and its clients, widely construed. I see no reason to tolerate 5W PR abusing Wikipedia any more than we did Wiki-PR. Huon (talk) 23:13, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

and no the bio is not well sourced. Deal with that. There is a press release, a gossip blog and a random website now used as sources and no one cares to correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk) 00:00, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Support extending ban to all who identify as editing on behalf of the company. I also support a widely construed topic ban from anything that could benefit from, be harmed by or be the subject of any public relations, including any living or recently deceased people, organizations and products, that applies to all 5W PR employees, enforceable by an indefinite block from any administrator. Wikipedia is not a place meant to be used by PR companies to further their interests. PHANTOMTECH (talk) 23:41, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
This is Ronn Torossian I am being slammed unfairly on my page so how does one deal with blatant untruths. Judae1 identified himself as best I understand. Rather unclear how you people propose to have edits handled if you refuse to acknowledge a living person being attacked without sources and links - as is now done on the page. I am commenting on the talk page which is what I am supposed to do as I understand and for that you want to ban me. IS this North Korea? Ronn Torossian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk) 23:59, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
PhantomTech, that is an incredibly broad brush, requiring admins to know everyone who might be an employee of this company (how exactly?) as well as their usernames and also anticipate any people, organization or product that could be the subject of an edit by these editors/IPs. I don't disagree with the intent of the ban, it just seems, pragmatically, unworkable and unenforceable except in the most egregious and obvious instances. Liz Read! Talk! 10:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
@Liz: I don't think it would be much more difficult than the proposed ban of all employees, but I agree that either would be difficult to enforce fully, an editor who is here with good faith could probably slip through without much difficulty but I don't think we should prevent those types of editors from editing because of the actions of their employer. As to determining which people, organizations or products could be the subject of edits by these editors, the easiest thing, though maybe not the best thing, to do would be to consider all living or recently deceased people, organizations and products as covered by the topic ban only leaving subjects open that unambiguously could not be the subject of PR, like space. Though, looking back at the responses, it does seem that one editor in particular may be unfairly affected by any sort of company wide restrictions, that, combined with your concerns, is making me doubt that my suggestion is the best solution. PHANTOMTECH (talk) 16:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm not seeing any evidence to the claim of sockpuppetry for Albertoein526. SPA perhaps, but an ill-advised orphan tag removal doesn't prove or suggest sockpuppetry, nor have you presented evidence showing that Albertoein526 works for 5W PR. Or am I missing something?It's at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Babasalichai. I'm also not seeing any evidence presented for any wrongdoing by Judae1, who has been open about his CoI on his user page since 2006. While I did not have time to examine his edits more thoroughly, xtools report does not seem to show many edits to articles where he has a conflict of interest. 5W_Public_Relations is on the list of most edited articles, but all the ones I checked were non-controversial maintenance (e.g. updating logo, updating numbers, repairing links, non-controversial minor grammar fixes). Can you please provide examples where Judae1 has edited in bad faith? ― Padenton|   23:52, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
Nvm on Albertoein, found it at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Babasalichai. Not seeing bad faith edits by Judae1 though still. Editing from same IP perhaps, but the editing behavior doesn't seem at all the same from what I looked at. ― Padenton|   00:29, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
It would also be helpful if someone could look at these BLP concerns. While "Ronn Torossian"'s concerns may not have been helped by the attitude with which he brought them up, they do seem to have some merit. For starters, I am not sure that a gawker writer is a reliable source for negative opinions of BLPs (as being used here Ronn_Torossian#Reception) and the inclusion of some criticisms in the Ronn_Torossian#Politics section bothers me, especially since the largest paragraph by far is entirely about his days as an undergraduate. At some point I wonder whether the goal here is to provide encyclopedic coverage of!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> him or to find any criticism we can that has a reliable source. Then it says "his politics created controversy for one of his clients, Birthright Israel, when it selected 5W to represent it". Looking at the source, the entirety of said "controversy" appears to be some activist and 'journalist' "started an online petition" and a rabbi who "posted a long item on his blog". ― Padenton|   00:47, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. I own a $20MM company and employ 120 people. These 20 year old stories are half truths. I never burnt a flag like they say - and of course there is no source for it, yet it remains.
Further, I won PR professional of the year and am in TV and newspaper every day for non Israel related matters. Why does things from 1995 define me? Its not why I am noteable - and there's no sources. Its simply meant to harm me 2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk) 00:54, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
I've mentioned this in the article talk page, but Gawker's reliability is misrepresented here. There was a time when it was a gossip blog, but by the time Hamilton Nolan (author of the piece) joined, its editorial approach had changed to be more like an actual news organization with its own reporting and editorial policies. Nolan specifically is someone who covered the PR industry before Gawker, so his opinions on PR executives are more informed than Mr. Torossian would have you believe. On the politics section, I don't know enough to comment either way. Mosmof (talk) 02:43, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
In 2007 when Gawker wrote that it was very much a small organization as any number of sources would advise. Its a salicious blog gossip and surely unworthy of a entrée in a BLP. Further, there's numerous unsourced comments that should be removed entirerly. One wonders why the largest section in my biography (I AM 40 years old) is from when I was 20. COme on folks. Its not what I am noteable for. RONN TOROSSIAN 165.254.85.130 (talk) 03:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
As said above " I am not sure that a gawker writer is a reliable source for negative opinions of BLPs (as being used here Ronn_Torossian#Reception) and the inclusion of some criticisms in the Ronn_Torossian#Politics section bothers me, especially since the largest paragraph by far is entirely about his days as an undergraduate. At some point I wonder whether the goal here is to provide encyclopedic coverage of him or to find any criticism we can that has a reliable source. Then it says "his politics created controversy for one of his clients, Birthright Israel, when it selected 5W to represent it". Looking at the source, the entirety of said "controversy" appears to be some activist and 'journalist' "started an online petition" and a rabbi who "posted a long item on his blog"."

PLEASE HELP AND HANDLE THAT ISSUE !!! Ronn Torossian 165.254.85.130 (talk) 03:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

@Mosmof: It doesn't really matter how 'informed' Hamilton Nolan is on PR executives. Having covered the PR field before does not mean he is an objective expert on the people in that field. And I don't know how old you think Gawker is, Gawker has always been tabloid journalism, up to and including recent years, so certainly during the period this article was written, early 2008. I have no idea what reform you think it went through between its creation in 2003 and early 2008. The very premise of Gawker has always been 'gossip blog', hence it comes in conflict with WP:NOTGOSSIP. ― Padenton|   04:17, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Sure, Gawker is still in some ways a gossip blog, but it's diversified beyond simply being a gossip site that you have to take each article for what it is - Nolan's cultural critique pieces are nothing like the early Sicha/Spires/Coen posts that simply snarked on New York media figures.
Plus, the direct source of that quote is actually Adweek, which I think is a reliable source for reporting on people in the communications industries. Mosmof (talk) 04:42, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Regarding Judae1, I at a glance didn't see much of an issue with his edits either. Since deception and disruption seem his company's default means of operation on Wikipedia, and this isn't the fist time they're caught at misrepresenting their opponents online, I thought a topic ban might suffice to keep the problems afflicting his co-workers from spilling over to Engelmayer's Wikipedia career. At a closer look, however, he's routinely violating the Terms of Use by editing articles on a 5WPR's clients without disclosing that connection, say here (see above for "client" status), here (evidence for "client" status, and that was a blatantly promotional edit, too) and here (Peebles' company is mentioned as a 5WPR client here, and by now I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the editor who edited that article immediately before Judae1, a single-purpose account, also was a 5WPR sock). Thus I see no reason to exclude Engelmayer from a ban on that company. We don't really need editors where whe have to wonder with every edit whether they're adding content in good faith or are promoting a client.
Regarding Torossian's latest claims of "no sources", that's blatantly untrue unless one thinks that paper doesn't exist. The press release he considers unreliable and complains about is, ironically, his own. I'll gladly discusss BLP issues at the article talk page, and I dare say that talk page history will show that I was quite accomodating of Torossian's point of view in the past, so much so that other editors accused me of being in league with him (and in fact he did ask me to email him, which I declined). Huon (talk) 03:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)\
It is not blatantly untrue that you cant use press releases. Nor that Gawker is a blog, nor that I never burnt a flag. I own a $20MM company and you are talking about things 20 years ago and theres not even a link - NO SOURCE - for multiple comments you are claiming. Its scandalous and liberlous. Its lies. THERE IS NO SOURCE TO SAY I BURNT A FLAG. DO YOU EVEN CHECK THESE ABSURD CLAIMS YOU ARE MAKING. THERE IS NO LINK NONE ZERO> ITS A LIE.

Please someone review it besides these obsessed editors. Ronn Torossian03:15, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Link #1: I don't really care about any off-wiki activity, nor do I see how their alleged unrelated behavior off-wiki should result in sanctions on-wiki. Also not sure what this article is saying, the only bit on Engelmayer is that an intern under his supervision had left internet comments under the names of other people (specifically including opponents). Not him.
Link #2: I'm not sure what the problem is with this one. From what I can see, it actually fixes promotional tone issues in the article.
Link #3 and 4: This edit may be an issue. I'll give you this one.
Link #5: Edit only splits refs into two columns and removes Template:BLP sources tag. Article at this revision has many sources, especially compared to what it looked like in December 2010 when the tag was added: Dec. 2010 rev.. Article has since added New York Times, The Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, Whitehouse.gov, and many other sources.
Perhaps the Zeta Interactive edit is enough for a topic ban, I don't know. I would dispute the others being used as reasoning however. ― Padenton|   04:17, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose, Support, and Suggest: On the one hand, I think Huon's proposal goes too far; on the other hand, I think it does not go far enough.
Regarding User:Judae1, he has proven himself consistently to be a valuable contributor to Wikipedia. He has adopted a strict hands-off policy regarding the article on Torossian. His edits to articles about 5W clients, while a violation of Wikipedia's conflict of interest rules, have never been blatantly promotional, but generally editorial.
So, in his case, I think that a censure or ban is uncalled for. This discussion should certainly have alerted him to the issue, and I believe that he will henceforth restrict his editing of 5W-related articles to the talk page, rather than the article itself.
As for Torossian, in his recent posts to the talk page of his article and his posts here, he has clearly identified himself with the community-banned Babasalichai. His illiterate puling makes intelligent discussion of the article content almost impossible. As someone who is community-banned, his posts should not be permitted. They should all be deleted immediately.
Finally, I want to second the opinion expressed by Padenton and repeat an apology that I made previously to Huon. When Huon started editing Torossian's article, he deleted everything related to Torossian's politics, and in general edited in a way that suggested to me that he was somehow influenced by Torossian himself. I was wrong, and recent edits to the article show that I was wrong with a vengeance: all the material on Torossian's political activities has been restored, and expanded on. So much so that I think the section on politics is excessive and unbalanced, and should be trimmed. Of course, it is almost impossible to discuss this in a rational way on the talk page as long as the Babasalichai sock (who now calls himself Torossian) keeps up his ranting. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:01, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Ravpapa as he calls himself is openly opposed to my politics. I am posting in my name and this Dungeons and Dragons style of childish games about my life is unacceptable. The simple fact remains that I am correcting what I am asserting happened in my life and its not being addressed. I never burned a flag ever - and there's not a source that says I did. Theres endless information on that page which has no sources and that should and must be addressed. And the simple fact remains that this has been discussed ad naseum on my page - and anyone not involved in politics will agree that posting endless 20 year old information from when I was 20 years old is overkill. Unfortunately if this matter isn't fixed there will have to be immediate outside action.

Wikipedia rules say remove libelous and inaccurate info immediately - which would include flag burning - and there's no source yet its not removed. One may be in their best interest to realize that. Please fix the page and reflect sources. There's not accurate ones now. 09:40, 25 May 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk)

Support company block At the help desk, 165.254.85.130 said they are Ronn Torossian- therefore it's clear block evasion. The only way to stop this sock/meat puppetry is to stop all the possible meatpuppets from editing. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:41, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
I did say who I am. What is it that was edited by me. This is my real life. While for you its dungeons and dragons. I ask that someone simply review the material. I haven't edited anything and have said who I am when commenting. Ronn Torossian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk) 11:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
As an aside, no one disputes that I own one of the 20 largest PR firms in the US, with 120 employees and $20MM in revenue. Could not I assign someone on staff to do these things? Realize there is a real world off Wikipedia. No one is addressing the simple fact that there is stuff posted which is not reflective of truth. My bio focuses on things 20 years ago. Would I be on Wikipedia bio if I didn't own a PR agency? Gimme a break. Review my competitors they all have pages that focuses on what they do. 165.254.85.130 (talk) 11:42, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Just for the record, the sockpuppet's claim that "no one disputes that I own one of the 20 largest PR firms in the US..." is not completely accurate. The Holmes report ranks 5WPR as 93rd in the world, and 51st in the United States. So at least one pretty reputable source disputes it.
Support company topic ban Particularly, I don't support banning them for Wikipedia entirely, I just support topic banning them from articles related to the ones Ronn Torossian has been editing. SilverSurfingSerpant (talk) 11:56, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Support company topic ban It is surprising that a company would do this to themselves but their behavior leaves little option. Chillum 14:26, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Support broad scope of ban, both subjects and editors. Rampant sock puppetry, blatant propaganda, legal posturing - everything Wikipedia does not need. Guy (Help!) 16:00, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Support company topic ban. If the org in question was willing to go through our guidelines and ethos then follow them – this debate would not be necessary. After going through the posts & edits (during which time, I could have been doing something more useful) I think a company topic ban is more than justified.--Aspro (talk) 16:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment Not sure where to post, but @Padenton: Torossian's political activism is not limited to his college days - if you see this talk page section, much of whose content hasn't made it to the article, Torossian's political activities attracted media attention till 2002. He graduated from SUNY Albany in 1995. In any case, if he was written about in reliable sources during his youth, it belongs here - sources don't become obsolete or unacceptable because they are 20 years old or offline, especially since what he has done afterwards hasn't attracted that much media attention. And I don't agree with his claim that he is only notable for owning a PR company, there are at least 30+ sources about his politics, and far fewer about his PR stuff. Many of these sources about his activism are English-language sources based in Israel, I can only imagine there will be many more Hebrew (and possibly Arabic) sources. Apart from a few profiles (NYT, Forward, Lifestyles Magazine) which also prominently mention his politics, the rest PR-related sources that come up are all about him being in the news because he is representing notable clients - from whom he doesn't inherit any notability. Those sources say nothing about Torossian the person - his views, beliefs, ideology, etc. - except that his PR firm represented those clients, and that he acted as spokesman for those clients. Also, his claim about his company being amongst the top 25 PR firms is false, Wikipedia (inadvertently?) [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ronn_Torossian edits (during which time, I could have been doing something more useful) I think a company topic ban is more than justified.--Aspro (talk) 16:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment Not sure where to post, but @Padenton: Torossian's political activism is not limited to his college days - if you see this talk page section, much of whose content hasn't made it to the article, Torossian's political activities attracted media attention till 2002. He graduated from SUNY Albany in 1995. In any case, if he was written about in reliable sources during his youth, it belongs here - sources don't become obsolete or unacceptable because they are 20 years old or offline, especially since what he has done afterwards hasn't attracted that much media attention. And I don't agree with his claim that he is only notable for owning a PR company, there are at least 30+ sources about his politics, and far fewer about his PR stuff. Many of these sources about his activism are English-language sources based in Israel, I can only imagine there will be many more Hebrew (and possibly Arabic) sources. Apart from a few profiles (NYT, Forward, Lifestyles Magazine) which also prominently mention his politics, the rest PR-related sources that come up are all about him being in the news because he is representing notable clients - from whom he doesn't inherit any notability. Those sources say nothing about Torossian the person - his views, beliefs, ideology, etc. - except that his PR firm represented those clients, and that he acted as spokesman for those clients. Also, his claim about his company being amongst the top 25 PR firms is false, Wikipedia (inadvertently?) abetted him in propagating this lie for years till it was removed. FireflySixtySeven (talk) 16:30, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
@FireflySixtySeven: my point is that it's largely WP:UNDUE. We could have similar extensive negative sections on a very wide number of people, yet we do not, because in many of those cases, editors felt it was WP:UNDUE. I'm not sure that it's Wikipedia's purpose to be a log of every media covered controversial decision a person has made in their entire lives. How long would the articles for Barack Obama, George W. Bush (more likely to be covered in his youth due to his father), Bill Clinton (very active in politics in college), if we listed every little thing they had done? I'm not saying Ronn Torossian has had the impact of a president of the United States, quite the opposite. The majority of his article is critical of him, and while I don't agree with how "Torossian" has been handling the dispute (from the recent posts that I've seen), his anger and impatience in this do appear to have some merit.
If these negative stories (many used in our article, though not all the sources in the politics section, are opinion articles) make up the majority of the few sources about this person, then I wonder if he truly has received significant coverage, and this becomes more of an attack page. Again, I don't agree with "Torossian"'s handling of this, but I just entered this dispute which seems to have been going on for a while. And based on my understanding of WP:BLP, some of this stuff is a bit excessive. WP:RS is not the only content guideline. WP:BLP is also a content guideline, and arguably far more important than WP:RS. WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE also applies. ― Padenton|   17:04, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Whatever else, WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE doesn't apply to someone who is known for putting himself in the spotlight (and I can present reliable sources for that, if required). It's not as if he weren't busily publishing opinion pieces to clearly lay out his political positions, though he doesn't want his own writings mentioned in his article (and he's right there, for once; I have repeatedly removed content based on his opinion pieces or on author profiles). Huon (talk) 19:58, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: At the risk of being picky and legalistic (and repetitive, even!), I wish to point out that a topic ban would not apply to the numerous sockpuppets of Babasalichai who swarm about 5WPR-related articles like flies. Those sockpuppets are community banned - their edits should be immediately reverted and their accounts should be blocked.
We are only talking about legitimate editors who have an association with 5W, and I know of only one of those - account Judae1. And, as I noted above, I think that Judah (whom I don't know personally and with whom I have no association other than having edited articles with him at Wikipedia) can be trusted to abide by the conflict of interest rules.
This in no way mitigates the pressing need to enforce the community ban on Babasalichai and his sockpuppets, including the IP that identifies himself as Ronn Torossian. All of these edits need to be reverted, and the IPs blocked from future editing of Wikipedia. --Ravpapa (talk) 16:41, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Question: should Cada mori (talk · contribs) be included in the company ban? Based on the writing style, I believe the user is not Ronn Torossian, but the user's input in Talk:Ronn Torossian basically parrots the 5W talking points and seems intended to add the impression that there's a dialog. Mosmof (talk) 14:12, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Question, how sure are we that these accounts really are Torossian and his employees, and not just impostors? Lankiveil (speak to me) 15:17, 26 May 2015 (UTC).
How sure do we need to be? What we do know is that there is a group of accounts (whether it's one person or multiple people) who have spent the past several years trying (justified or not) to remove negative content about the CEO and the company while inflating the company's standing and influence in its category (while also making similar edits to articles about the company's clients and introducing negative content to pages like Yoshiyahu Yosef Pinto. We know these accounts are disruptive, hijack discussions and unwilling to follow community policies. What more do we need to know? (FWIW, I believe some early edits have come from within the company and they're linked to blocked accounts, but I could be wrong) 15:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
You're on a witch hunt. I have no association with Ronn or his PR company. I came across the discussion and decided to participate. You have no reason to believe I am a sock, especially considering that I have a long history of edits on this site. Cada mori (talk) 19:51, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
"You have no reason to believe I am a sock, especially considering that I have a long history of edits on this site". Ahem.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 19:15, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
So? The block was reverted and it was confirmed it was only one instance. I have a solid history of contributions prior to that and the validity of the opinions expressed on the talk page should not be affected by that one incident. Cada mori (talk) 02:31, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Support Action, but not crackdown It would be impossible to fully find out every single member of this Company by really searching them out, instead, a system of surveillance on all articles related should be set up and anything suspicious should be looked into, If we find someone is putting pro Torossian accounts, we can assume that they are a employee using WP:DUCK. This should not be a crackdown, just a case of keeping a lookout. Happy_Attack_Dog (Throw Me a Bone) 18:52, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Legal threat[edit]

BLOCKED
(non-admin closure) IP was blocked by User:Chillum. Callmemirela (Talk) 03:27, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
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Please see this link. Please block that IP. I am reporting this to WMF legal. Jytdog (talk) 14:20, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

this is related to issues discussed above here. Jytdog (talk) 14:24, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
I have blocked the IP. In the spirit of WP:DOLT this complaint should be looked into. It is not clear what issue the IP was complaining about can you please clarify that? Chillum 14:25, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps we could merge this with the Ronn Torossian thread above. bobrayner (talk) 16:32, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 Done. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 17:10, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

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Ban evasion at Help Desk[edit]

NAC: Already blocked. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:32, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
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See this diff at the Help Desk: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AHelp_desk&type=revision&diff=663930967&oldid=663927691

This appears to be ban evasion. Please block 165.254.85.130 or perform a range-block. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:28, 25 May 2015 (UTC)


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Jyaku20 on 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami[edit]

Fundamentally a content dispute that does not require administrator attention. In future, all parties should avoid edit warring and attempt to resolve sourcing issues on the talk page.  Philg88 talk 06:32, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
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Jyaku20 (talk · contribs) This is a new user (less than 25 edits) who has his own interpretation of a source on the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami article. For the last several days I've been protecting the article from the original research that's been added there. An edit war ensued, but we were engaged by some bystanders and it settled down. The current version of the article has the statement that contradicts its source and its edit summary summarizes his application of original research fairly well.

The source is a Japanese newspaper called Asahi Shimbun and part of the story includes comments from seismologist Kenji Satake making comparisons with the earlier 869 Sanriku earthquake event. A few things that were added are fine, but the magnitude of the event is being overstated, as the newspaper article says magnitude 8.3, yet the editor is saying 8.6–9.0.

Dawnseeker2000 04:13, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

See the original discussion. Dustin (talk) 04:17, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Athomeinkobe came in and provided an extremely effective and welcome change to the text, though we haven't heard from Jyaku20 yet. I'm tempted to ask that this be closed as resolved, and I don't know what can come of it, but I feel like I haven't been effective at communicating with the new user. Dawnseeker2000 06:04, 28 May 2015 (UTC)


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User:Sajed Mahmud[edit]

DELETED
Page has been speedied and user warned.  Philg88 talk 09:46, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
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This user has created the mis-spelled, mis-capitalised, Catagory: jewish crimes (now at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2015_May_27#Category:jewish_crimes although not technically a category as it's spelled wrongly) - either incompetent (WP:AGF) or a deliberate re-creation of a deleted category. The same editor previously made a series of edits adding the now-deleted Category:Jewish crimes to many articles. Appears to be WP:NOTHERE. PamD 07:20, 28 May 2015 (UTC)


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*Castle&Gardens*[edit]

BLOCKED
*Castle&Gardens* blocked one week for disruptive editing by Jayron32. (non-admin closure) Liz Read! Talk! 12:23, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
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*Castle&Gardens* (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

User's edits started off with POV commentary, claiming some of which was just capitalizing proper nouns... Or rather, capitalizing random common nouns as if they were proper nouns.

When some basic guidelines and policies (including WP:NOR) were explained to them, as well as the difference between proper nouns (New York City, Bugs Bunny) and common nouns (city, rabbit), he went back and continued to capitalize random common nouns and added more original research.

After this, he went on to capitalize random common nouns at Walmer Castle, as well as adding some editorial commentary ("the castle" -> "this Historic House") and an unsourced date (in Roman numerals for some reason) -- all edits marked as minor despite new content or changes in meaning.

When I explained what proper nouns are (names not types), and why Wikipedia rarely cites primary sources like the Bible except to provide context to non-primary sources, he showed that he has looked up what a proper noun is (despite getting them completely wrong) and responded with "I used Biblical Scripture as a reference" (as if that was not the very problem that was being pointed out).

When I again explained the above issues, he claimed to have other sources (which he has yet to cite anywhere), demonstrated continued problems with proper nouns, and called me a "Cyber-Stalker," "Wiki-Police," and "friend of Julian himself"... A "friend of Julian" is "an indignant spectator of the triumph of Christianity;" i.e. a friend of Julian the Apostate -- which is akin to calling someone "godless" in a discussion as if it is at all relevant.

He then went on to capitalize more common nouns are Borley Rectory, as well as altering a quote and changing the cited name "Foyster" to the uncited name "Foster". When I asked them to not change names without checking sources, he insisted that it's the correct name (despite all the source cited, and any others I can find, saying otherwise). When I presented multiple sources, he tried to dismiss them because they were digital, and pointed to the "free encyclopedia anyone can edit" slogan as if that only justified his actions and no one else's, before restoring the problematic edits.

He has since taken to telling bald-faced lies with their edit summaries, continuing to capitalize random nouns while doing so. When confronted by this, he decided that my relationship status somehow has more relevance than his behavior, and claimed he was just following my example (a damn lie).

Finally, he claims that he doesn't "have a major edit button," so he "can only" click on the minor edit button.

I don't even think WP:CIR applies anymore, I'm convinced that *Castle&Gardens* is nothing but a common and irredeemable troll. The few edits he has that are of even questionable use come with flaws that would require rewriting to incorporate. Many of his edits are bad-faith lies. His interaction shows an initial WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude, followed by an inability to learn, and finally a desire to insult others. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:13, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

  • I blocked him for 1 week for numerous deliberately disruptive and misleading behaviors. If he continues the disruption, we can make it indefinite. --Jayron32 01:28, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

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User page defacement[edit]

Edit revdeleted by FreeRangeFrog. (non-admin closure) Liz Read! Talk! 12:26, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
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Hi my user page was defaced diff, and I was wondering whether any users associated with the IP responsible could be banned? --Jobrot (talk) 03:49, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jobrot: I've removed the revision from the page history as grossly insulting, but the IP has not edited since. If that happens again please report it. On a separate not this seems to be related to Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, which I've protected for a week. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 04:32, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for that FreeRangeFrog --Jobrot (talk) 05:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

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Content removal and edit-warring by COI editor[edit]

At International Archives of Medicine (diffs: [18], [19] and [20]). Can some admins take a look and comment, block, protect etc? See discussion I stated at talk-page, which the IP who claims to be the journals's publisher have not responded to. Abecedare (talk) 21:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I restored the material (minus the unsourced name you removed). The IP is obviously attempting to remove material they don't like. There's nothing wrong with it, and unless they engage in some discussion it shouldn't be removed. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 21:10, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Fake articles[edit]

DELETED
Pages have been speedied, thanks User:DESiegel and User:Drmies --Huldra (talk) 22:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
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I have found two fakes: Jonathan Adriano and Daniel dos Santos (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#Fake bios?). SLBedit (talk) 22:14, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

It would help if you explained why you have concluded that they are fakes. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:18, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
No such footballers exist. The references added to the articles are also fake. SLBedit (talk) 22:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
At least the Jonathan Adriano article seriously stinks; cannot find any sources. I suspect someones wishfully thinking/hoping he was Adriana Limas boyfriend... Huldra (talk) 22:27, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Can confirm this for at least Jonathan Adriano. No mention on the official site of Go Ahead Eagles. A search for "Jonathan Adriano" AND "Go Ahead Eagles" at google gives exactly three results: 1x our article, 1x mention at tool labs & 1 false-positive (this one). Even with the rather exact specification—necessary in this case due to the sheer amount of false positives I got without—if such a person had ever been signed to or played as much as a minute for the GAE, there'd have been a mention somewhere. Could find no sources for a person with this name ever playing for several of the other clubs listed. (Didn't bother checking all of them. After four came up empty, that was more than enough proof). AddWittyNameHere (talk) 22:36, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
  • There's no Adriano with Go Ahead. Article deleted. Drmies (talk) 22:52, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Also blocked both article creators Juancronicles (talk · contribs) and Easymoneymaker (talk · contribs) who besides creating the fake articles and some vandalism, are clearly socks. Abecedare (talk) 22:59, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

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List of cities in Morocco[edit]

Page protected by KrakatoaKatie (non-admin closure) Liz Read! Talk! 12:17, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
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I am not familiar with english wp handling of incidents like following. Please see revision history of the article from that point. There is some "disput about Morocco". Maybe there is a watch list for? --Tommes talk 14:04, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism. Report to the vandalism noticeboard, or, for vandalism by IPs (which this is), request page semi-protection. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:34, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for reverting. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:34, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

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User:Roscelese and User:Stalwart111 working together[edit]

Not an issue for this noticeboard as has been pointed out. Take it to an approprate venue. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:23, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
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Queen Christina of Sweden (one of 6 so named, the only one who was head of state in her own right) and her sexuality have been a subject of controversy since the 17th century. Scolarly and unbiased writers have portrayed her as undefinable, asexual, bisexual or just a complete mystery in that regard. To my knowledge, there is no reliable and neutral source anywhere, i.e. one without a literary (book-selling) agenda, which attempts to stamp her life story with any specific sexual preference.

These 2 editors on English Wikipedia want us to call Christina a probable lesbian by using this top sentence under Gender ambiguity in our biography of the queen: "She is thought to have been a lesbian, and her affairs with women were noted during her lifetime." The problems are, (1) as an Rfc on the talk page concludes, which has been disregarded by these two editors, that only one source for the first part of the sentence ("She is thought to have been a lesbian") is not enough for us to display a generalization of that kind in our article text; and (2) that the second part of the sentence ("her affairs with women were noted during her lifetime") still is completely unsourced, tendentiously turning seems to and suggested (by a totally unknown 17th century person named "Guilliet" - ? - ), into "were noted".

One of Queen Christina's most knowledgeable and reliable academic biographers Sven Stolpe has clearly concluded that there is no basis to assert that she was or probably was a lesbian. Mentioning the accusations of homosexuality leveled against Christina by infamous liars, in writings such as "Princess Lucien Marat's scandalous and tacky La vie amoureuse de Christine de Suède, le reine androgyne", Stolpe reminds us of the risk that gossip intended to ruin a person's reputation in the 17th century can be imaginatively reversed and embraced in attempts to make a life story more interesting today, with spices no longer derogatory but rather trendily appealing and exciting to a vast majority of readers in 2015.

I have fought a losing battle so far in trying to balance the article on this detail. My latest effort, after a long break, was reversed within 7 minutes with the edit summary "drop it, dude", by one of these editors, and the talk page is a trail of tears and anxiety for me with a seemingly never ending sequence of personal slurs by the other one.

Please help me try to figure out if I'm wrong here, or what else besides WP:OWN might be going on, month after month. Thank you! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:09, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Serge, ultimately, this is a content dispute, which means it's not actionable at ANI. I'd recommend WP:DR or WP:3O for an issue like this. --IJBall (talk) 21:01, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
This is not within the scope of WP:3O because it involves more than two editors. The dispute resolution noticeboard or a Request for Comments are reasonable options. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:09, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
I think the best way to handle this is as JzG (closer of first RFC) later suggested in Talk:Christina,_Queen_of_Sweden#Re:_RFC_result, and start a new RfC with a clearer question and clearer options. I disagree with the removal of Template:Cn, as WP:Verifiability requires "All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material." The source being used so far is a textbook, a WP:TERTIARY source, and therefore far from ideal. The source does not seem to support the "and her affairs with women were noted during her lifetime" claim, in the pages provided in the preview. On the contrary, it provides one person's speculation on the topic, and immediately expresses doubt on the claim. "Was Christina a lesbian? The record is complex, but the consensus of modern biographers favors that view." Not at all a ringing endorsement of the preceding claim. Consensus here referring to majority opinion, not fact. If somehow we can view other pages of this book, or if someone has access to it, that would be nice. ― Padenton|   21:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
The claim that the cited source is a textbook isn't true; moreover, it isn't true that the source doesn't support the statement about her affairs with women being known at the time. This is a silly comment, Padenton. Serge's complaint appears to be that multiple people daring to disagree with him is evidence of some kind of conspiracy, and you shouldn't be wasting your time trying to lend it legitimacy. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 21:40, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
"All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material." That's all I'm asking. Nothing more, nothing less. SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:36, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
@Roscelese: Whether you want to call it a 'textbook' or not is splitting hairs. The point was that it's an obviously WP:TERTIARY source. "moreover, it isn't true [...]" Show me exactly where the source supports the statement about "her affairs with women being known at the time" as you claim, as I've read it twice now. ― Padenton|   21:56, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Crompton attributes her breaking off her engagement with her cousin to "the attachment she formed with a young woman named Ebba Sparre", the quote about Christina calling Sparre her "bedfellow" and saying her mind was "as beautiful as her outside" is here, the Danish envoy writes that she had "hidden the beautiful Ebba Sparre in her bed and associated with her in a special way," a few more quotes from Christina's contemporaries. I don't believe you've "read it twice now". Again, I would recommend that you stop enabling this disruptive user. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 22:08, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
As I'm sure you already known, it was quite common for women in past centuries to have intimate relationships with other women, even living together, without it being a sexual or romantic relationship. Liz Read! Talk! 22:27, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Are you suggesting that your personal analysis of the primary sources trumps Louis Crompton's? –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 01:27, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
If you had actually read the pages, you'd see that Louis Crompton says everything that Liz just said. "The Englishman was not shocked—royalty in this age often had same-sex bedmates." Bottom of page 358. The paragraph right after the sentence fragment you pasted above in fact: "The most likely explanation lies in the attachment she formed with a young woman named Ebba Sparre early in 1645." ― Padenton|   15:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Again, why do you think it's appropriate to elevate your own personal analysis of primary sources over Crompton's? He literally states that the consensus of modern biographers believes she was a lesbian and follows up with supporting details. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 16:36, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I never said I disagreed with Crompton. You are putting words in my mouth. Go read again what I said. This is not about the first half of the sentence, but the second. ― Padenton|   21:14, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
The second half which follows Crompton by stating that her sexuality was noted by her contemporaries. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 02:35, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
Except Crompton never says it. ― Padenton|   14:46, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Despite having claimed (several times) to the contrary, Serge has been unable to point these so-called "personal slurs" and this is, as has been pointed out, a content dispute. My only references to Serge, personally, were with regard to his well-established record of edit-warring, a disingenuous and invalid RFC and his refusal to discuss things before blindly reverting. With regard to content, the conflict has been whether Serge's chosen source (Stolpe) provides a better account than later biographers (Crompton, et al) who had access to additional evidence and didn't have an obvious agenda. In reality, it's a moot question anyway because the article gives an account of both views, heavily referencing Stolpe despite the obvious issues with regard to his reliability and neutrality as a source and referencing (despite Serge's attempts to remove them) Crompton and many others who, on balance of evidence, have formed their own view with regard to her sexuality. Stolpe was free to do so (through his rose-coloured, Catholic-convert, ultra-conservative, inexpert goggles) and we give an account of that. Whether Serge likes it or not, the consensus of modern biographers (ie. everyone other than Stolpe) is that she was something other than a heterosexual woman and that she had (at various points during a life punctuated by drama and bouts of deep religious devotion) relationships with both men and women including a Catholic Cardinal. The extent to which they were "relationships" as we would see them is irrelevant and our personal view as to whether or not she was straight, gay or otherwise is also irrelevant. We simply regurgitate what reliable sources say and that is exactly what has been done in the article. Stlwart111 03:34, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Worth pointing out, too, that the allegation here is that Roscelese and I are "working together". Yes, quite happily so, along with a number of other long-term editors who have contributed recently to the article and have contributed to various talk page discussions. The only individual refusing to participate in that collegial and collaborative effort is Serge, whose conduct has been the subject of some prior discussion here. A boomerang and some quiet time to reconsider his approach might be in order. Stlwart111 06:08, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm less involved with the article, but did jump in to revert Serge previously, which resulted in a thread about the Crompton source on my talk page. As far as the nature of this thread, there's no reason to think Roscelese and Stalwart111 are "working together" in any nefarious way. Based on the talk page threads, it seems Serge may take pointed disagreement personally. So this is ultimately a content dispute that should be addressed by a new RfC (the previous one was poorly conceived and closed as no consensus) or taken to DR (or maybe RS)? Speaking of RS, @Padenton: Why do you say it is clearly a tertiary source? The preface makes clear that the author drew on previous historical works as well as from original [ancient] sources. If it were only the former I suppose I'd understand? But then it's less likely Harvard would've published it. Also, even if it were a textbook, that doesn't necessarily mean it's tertiary or unreliable. The lower-level textbooks tend to be tertiary, but WP:RS says "Reputable tertiary sources, such as lower-level textbooks, almanacs, and encyclopedias, may be cited." Other textbooks are secondary and among the most reliable sources (again WP:RS "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources.") — Rhododendrites talk \\ 12:59, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
  • No opinion on the content but there does seem to be some misunderstanding regarding WP:TERTIARY above, as stated there, "tertiary" is not a way to say the source is "not ideal", a tertiary source is by policy often quite good for summarizing sources, as that's its purpose. Moreover, we often need and use tertiary sources for WP:RS/AC. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:20, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
  • comment - this is not a behavior problem that should be on ANI, but a content dispute, as many have remarked. I suggest this thread be closed so the editors involved can concentrate on content DR. Jytdog (talk) 12:32, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Str77 and Assyrian Kings[edit]

Both editors are warned to stop the slow edit warring which if persistent is just as blockable as 3rr. The page has now been temprarily semi'd to avoid anyone from 'forgetting' to log in - and BTW, dynamic IPs have nothing to do with it. For the rest, please take it to an appropriate noticeboard such as WP:DRN. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:39, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have been having intense difficulties persuading this user on my own to appreciate our Original Research policy and he responds by what seems to be repeated disruption to make a WP:POINT (ie removing practically every sentence there because his OR won't stand). Please see the talk section Talk:Puzur-Ashur_I#This_edit_is_typical_of_the_problem Philip Mexico (talk) 11:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm the other party in this dispute and was about to file a complaint as well. For more than a week now I have trouble with Philip Mexico due to his unwillingness to collaborate on articles.
I started working on the article Puzur-Ashur I, working in some information (some sourced, some unsourced) from the German Wikipedia. I was immediately opposed by some IP and by Philip. I had overlooked his first edit under that name and thus inadvertedly reverted it. He blanket reverted me whereas I then tried to work in his contributions as much as possible. This has always been my approach on this article and on Talk:Ila-kabkabu, whereto the dispute spilled over.
I repeatedly tried to discuss matters on the relevant talk pages, which Philip practically ignored. Thus, he was eventually blocked for his edit warring. (This can be seen on Talk:Puzur-Ashur I and Talk:Ila-kabkabu. Philipp's user talk page also shows admin User:C.Fred trying to reason with him.) After many, many backs and forth, Philip finally posted on talk pages but even then it took him a long, long time to provide sources for his preferred versions.
When he finally did provide a source, I again did my best to include it into the article. [21], whereas he insisted of inserting his previous POV.
This complaint is about behaviour but to clarify matters I will here report what the dispute is about:
  1. Philip insists that a particular section of the Assyrian King List must be titled in a certain way but not in another way, clearly due to his his opposition to a certain interpretation of this section. Both titles are translations and both are sourced to academic literature but Philip rejects one as POV-pushing. I eventually compromised to insert both version, even though this makes the wording a bit cumbersome.
  2. The main dispute is about the interpretation of the section, which I sourced to an academic work of reference. Philip first tried to remove it and then resorted to labelling it an interpretation held by "some" scholars, even though at the time it was the only sourced interpretation. He finally provided a source for another interpretation, which I then worked into the article. He still insisted on the word "some" (whereas in comments on the talk page) he insists how wide-spread it is. At the same time, Philip only wants some information from the source he provided to be included, other things he rejects.
I must be candid that neither of us has behaved in a pristine manner. We both have repeatedly reverted the other and yes, today I have for a moment violated WP:POINT: what I did is that I first tagged as unsourced anything that was not 100% sourced and then I removed it all, along with everything that was off topic or even remotely violating WP:SYNTH. The reason for this was, as I explained on Talk:Puzur-Ashur I, Philip's constant double standards when it comes to the requirement of sourcing information. Sometimes he inserts information without any source (be it positive assedrtions or negative contradictions of sourced scholarly view points), sometimes he removes sourced information for no valid reason (apparently when the source he provided went a little bit further than his view. See Talk:Puzur-Ashur_I#What_Mrs_Levy_actually_says)
Philip also shows no regard for tags placed into the article as an alternative to the constant reverting. He has repeteadly blanket reverted to his his version, removing the off topic tag I placed on one passage at Puzur-Ashur_I and never responded to the relevant section of the talk page.
Contrary to what Philip claims, this has never been about me wishing to push a certain POV. My history of Talk:Puzur-Ashur_I indicates that I shifted from a minimalist approach to one more inclusive in order to compromise with other editors (first an IP, then Philipp) and I even placed a request for more contributions - not support for my supposed POV but sourcing for any kind of view - at the Wikiproject Assyria [22], to which unfortunately no one has yet responded. This request came at the time Philip contradicted the sourced information in the article without bothering to provide a fitting source.
As for the IPs: several have also been involved (User:71.246.147.22, User:71.127.135.245). Based on this edit I suspect that these IPs (who via WHOIS point to the same location) are the same as Philip. Str1977 (talk) 11:57, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Those are indeed my two IP edits where I had forgot to log in and Verizon is constantly shifting IP numbers. Again, please see the talk section Talk:Puzur-Ashur_I#This_edit_is_typical_of_the_problem for my detailed explanation of what is going on. Philip Mexico (talk) 13:25, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
(non admin observation) Per WP:SOCK editing while logged out can happen for innocent reasons. Unless there is deception, like agreeing with yourself in a discussion, no harm no foul.AlbinoFerret 14:52, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I never assumed anything else. However, the identity should be taken into account when looking through the history of the dispute. Str1977 (talk) 14:57, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Well admins, I was hoping one of you would take a look at how ridiculously hard it's been for me over 2 weeks to get this blatant synth totally misquoting Meissner, out of Puzur-Ashur I where it does not even belong. Every single time I took it out it came back. Nobody has responded yet, so tomorrow I will make one more attempt at removing the now-tagged OR. The rest of that article is still an incohesive mess, virtually every single attempt I made over two weeks to make it more cohesive got reverted too. Philip Mexico (talk) 02:49, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

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Editor removing commas at random[edit]

SOCKS BLOCKED
Three socks indef blocked by Guy, who has generously given the user in question the option to pick one account and ask for an unblock... (non-admin closure) --IJBall (talk) 03:00, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

MitchellPritchettLSD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is deleting commas at random, with no regard for grammar.[23][24][25][26] I reverted a few, but all of his edits look pointless and should be rolled back. KateWishing (talk) 14:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

First he needs to be blocked, then they could be rolled back. This is once of those cases where it would be nice for established editors to be able to issue temporary blocks without having to wait for the admin corps to wake up. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:35, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Another obvious sock who is doing the same thing: AndersonCooper11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)[27] This is probably related to the recent Acid420 report. CheckUser for sleepers? KateWishing (talk) 14:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
At the risk of sounding like a useless admin, the ones I looked at look like good faith errors (removing Oxford commas, and the like). I'm not convinced from what I've seen that this is malicious, which is where it'd need to be before I'd consider blocking and doing a mass rollback. Has there been any attempt made to discuss this with the editor before bringing it here? Lankiveil (speak to me) 15:30, 26 May 2015 (UTC).
I don't see a problem either - I'm not a big fan of commas and the few diffs I looked at seemed to make the sentence flow more naturally. Unless there's been a conversation about the pros and cons of MOS:COMMA, I think any administrative action is premature. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
The editor is removing commas that are grammatically required, not just Oxford commas.
  • The diagnostic criteria require that symptoms become apparent in early childhood, typically before age three[28]
  • The most common form today is known as a residential garden, but the term garden has traditionally been a more general one.[29]
I'd rather not go through every one of his edits and check whether they are actively harmful or merely pointless. More importantly, the edits seem to have no purpose other than inflating sockpuppet edit count. AndersonCooper11 (talk · contribs) and MitchellPritchettLSD (talk · contribs) both deleted commas from the same number article (9).[30][31] The similarity of usernames and edit style between MitchellPritchettLSD (talk · contribs) and Acid420 (talk · contribs) is also probably not a coincidence. Three of Acid420's previous socks also targeted number articles (3, 6, 8).[32][33][34] KateWishing (talk) 16:51, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Found another WP:DUCK: CamTuckerLSD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) KateWishing (talk) 17:21, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Sounds like this is an issue for a sock puppet investigation, not AN/I. Liz Read! Talk! 17:48, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Don't pass the buck. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:30, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
It's not my call, I'm not an admin. And it seems like the primary concern now is socking, not commas. Liz Read! Talk! 21:37, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Since you realize it's not your call, you should line-out your original comment. Let the admins decide what to do. Socks are often blocked strictly from evidence posted here. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:50, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Seriously, because I suggested starting a sock puppet investigation? The admins are going to do what they they are going to do, regardless of my suggestion to the OP. Liz Read! Talk! 22:32, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
SPI's are a pain to construct and they're typically dismissed by the checkusers. If you want to go through that waste of time, go ahead and file an SPI. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:43, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
All these ducks worry me. This appears that someone is trying to make a WP:POINTed campaign and using sockpuppets to avoid scrutiny. —Farix (t | c) 20:44, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Very similar to a user removing posts at random. Don't pass the buck guys, block and move on. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:44, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with the issue being discussed. —Farix (t | c) 20:44, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I reverted MitchellPritchettLSD here and here, and immediately thought that he is trying to get WP:Autoconfirmed, which is one of the signs of WP:Sockpuppetry. I knew that he would get warned about his comma removals sooner than later. Flyer22 (talk) 03:00, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

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An apparently invalid RfC that probably needs closing as null and void[edit]

Resolved by PhantomTech. Guy (Help!) 23:19, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

See Talk:A Letter Concerning Toleration#RfC: Did Locke exclude Catholics from toleration in his Letter Concerning Toleration? (and also Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#A Letter Concerning Toleration which looks set to be closed as declined, since there has been no prior discussion elsewhere). In essence we have an RfC asking Wikipedia contributors to provide their own interpretation of a primary source - material written by John Locke published in 1689 - and decide content accordingly, rather than following the multiple scholarly sources currently provided for content, which seem unanimous in reaching a conclusion already covered in the article. As I have repeatedly tried to explain to the contributor in question, User:Thepointofit, both on the article talk page, and on his talk page, this is clearly contrary to WP:RS and WP:OR policy, and accordingly wouldn't be valid even in the unlikely circumstances that the RfC went his way. Since it seems that User:Thepointofit is going to argue his (non-policy-compliant) case until the cows come home, and since it seems pointless to continue with an RfC that cannot possibly have any effect on article content, I therefore ask that an uninvolved admin take a look at the RfC, and that if they concur with my suggestion that it is null and void, close it forthwith to avoid dragging this pointless discussion out any longer. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:37, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Close it down - Essentially I agree with AtG, but see my specific argument in the RfC - as long as one of the participants in unwilling to play by our rules, the RfC is a farce, and Thepointofit should be given the choice: follow our policies, or hit the road, voluntarily or by force. BMK (talk) 04:05, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
I've closed the RfC based on both the information here and input from editors in it. PHANTOMTECH (talk) 05:07, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Strong-arm tactics by Jytdog[edit]

IP blocked - this is obviously a long-time disputant, possibly block-evading, certainly trying to evade scrutiny. Not here to contribute. Guy (Help!) 23:18, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A user, Jytdog, has been involved in a multi-editor content dispute at the High fructose corn syrup page. The events (history page, talk page) started with Jytdog making dozens of edits to the page, with the apparent aim of restructuring it; this also involved major loss of content from the Health Effects section, and a merging of the 'Health effects of high fructose corn syrup' page into the High fructose corn syrup page. At some point Jytdog ran into spirited resistance from me and another editor, Bloodofox, repeatedly removed the 'disputed tag' from the page, calling it lame (which Bloodofox kept replacing) and eventually requested page protection, which is currently in place. He opened talkpage discussion by claiming 'all hell has broken loose' (apparently his OWNish hacking and rewriting the article was a gentle breeze through the meadows) Discussion ensued, which at first seemed civil. Soon, though, Jytdog announced to everybody the account I had created long ago but hadn't used for a while (and certainly not ever on the High fructose corn syrup page, or any page connected to it). This was an uncalled-for implication that I was hiding something, or edited anonymously for some ulterior motive. Jytdog also tried to archive this entire active discussion [35]. At the same time Jytdog's separate content argument (on the same talkpage) with Bloodox was proceeding apace, and Bloodox claimed that Jytdog had 'swept under the carpet' certain issued to do with the article's content. Jytdog claimed that was an accusation of 'bad faith', shortly before... accusing my IP range of being Bloodox's sockpuppet. He then opened the thread Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bloodofox, where another user, Kingofaces43 (who was on his side all along), had posted several messages in support of him. And then (as this was still ongoing) Jytdog proceeded to post two 'proposal for edit requests' on the article talk page:

'Proposal for edit request 1 of 2[edit] Does everyone agree to revert these three diffs to restore the summary sentence in the lead about current consensus on health effects, and restore the sentence about "However, the mercury was not methylmercury, the form of mercury that is of most concern to human health." to the body? (I anticipate that the IP/Nitrobutane/bloodofox will disagree but that editor is the only one arguing for that, which is now clear.) Please do support or oppose. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 04:59, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for edit request 2 of 2[edit] Does everyone agree to revert this dif to remove links to the various specific dicarbonyl compounds and to remove the editorializing editorial comment there? (I anticipate that the IP/Nitrobutane/bloodofox will disagree but that editor is the only one arguing for that, which is now clear.) Please do support or oppose. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 05:03, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
(the second is an incomplete description of what the revert would do - it would also restore content unsupported by the citation in front of it, which I pointed out in the note)

Then Kingofaces43 proceeded to post messages in support on both proposals.

The near-identical, manipulative ("Does everyone agree...") language, the accusations of sockpuppetry (“which is now clear”) when more than one person opposes him, the removal of the 'disputed' tag as 'lame' (indeed, the idea that anyone could dispute with him is 'lame'), the strongarming of the article's content all point to potentially major power issues going on with Jytdog, and this is causing significant disruption, when he is taking out on other editors. The actions of Kingofaces43 are moreover suggestive that it is Jytdog who is engaging in sockpuppetry. 85.211.108.65 (talk) 07:10, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Primary sources and sources that fail WP:MEDRS should be removed from a mature article. We should strive to use high-quality sources rather than use poorly sourced text to argue with reviews. QuackGuru (talk) 07:14, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
"Primary sources should be removed from a mature article" is not taken from WP guidelines and has nothing to do with this thread. Jytdog enjoys a loyal group who will support him and/or derail any attempt to examine his "strong arm" style of editing; from what I have witnessed, every ANI opened against him in the past year or so becomes an example of this phenomenon. KingofAces can easily be mistaken for a Jytdog sock since they seem to agree 100% (at least at the GMO articles), but is not, to my knowledge, the same person. petrarchan47คุ 08:50, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
The real DUCK test would suggest that the OP is a sock, and an investigation is open. -Roxy the black and white dog™ (resonate) 09:07, 27 May 2015 (UTC)


QuackGuru

I don't want to hear about Wikipolicy from someone who has been blocked literally dozens of times, for weeks at a time, for tendentious/disruptive editing, harassing other users, edit-warring in someone's userspace sandbox...

and has posted here five minutes after I put the ANI template on Jytdog's userpage??

Your record in fact even shows you have a history of “canvassing via email and making misleading accusations”...
petrarchan: if what you say is true, Jytdog's history is one of continuous mass CANVASSING to intimidate the opposition with sheer numbers and, if there are several such ANIs against him, there will be many recurrent names and this is worthy of investigation (especially if characters with a history as egregious as QuackGuru are involved (see above))
85.211.108.65 (talk) 10:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

PS: Roxy the dog is also one of them it seems. On Roxy the dog's talkpage, Adjwilley has pointed out: "Continuous pointed remarks to/about other users and the repeated scornful generalizations", "pointed comments to other users", creation of a "toxic atmosphere" on the Acupuncture talkpage, the same on the Ayurveda talkpage, editwarring on the Acupuncture article... Acupuncture is the page QuackGuru keeps vandalizing, that's why he got so many bans.
Also on Roxy the dog's talkpage, Adjwilley mentioned QuackGuru as having 'battleground mentality', 'annoying style of communicating and OWNing articles'
Roxy the dog in turn calls her opponents 'hordes of advocates' and 'POV pushers' on the talkpage, and has a stark red infobox on the userpage, reading 'This user resists the POV pushing of lunatic charlatans.' And a block for 'personal attacks/harassment'... and rollback permission
I wonder if the slavish obedience of this group, who'll do his editwarring for him, and help keep his record 'clean', has anything to do with Jytdog gaining 'rollback' privileges... his brutalizing editing on the High fructose corn syrup page has included undoing the edit he doesn't like... and bulldozing the unrelated intermediate edits too, by different users
85.211.108.65 (