Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive890

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Unexplained / POV removal of content by User:Packerfansam[edit]

User:Packerfansam has been around for a long time and has accumulated tens of thousands of edits, many focusing on Wisconsin legislative and / or political articles. He has created more than 3300 articles – many of them very short biographies, but a lot by even that measure. With this depth of experience (and a clean block log) it’s perplexing that in the past few days following a several-month editing hiatus, he has begun to remove substantial chunks of content from a variety of articles, accompanied by vague (and sometimes misleading) edit summaries. In many of the cases, the excised material relates to Jews, Muslims, African-Americans or LGBT matters, raising NPOV concerns.

Michigan – removed a religious affiliation table, and all narrative references to Jews, Muslims
New York City – removed textual references to the Stonewall Inn, Jews, LBGT demographics, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism
Gabriel Riesser – removed description of subject’s Jewish ancestry and its consequences for the subject
Hamburg – removed references to Muslims, Jews
Kansas – removed references to Mormons, Jews, Muslims and other less-represented religions in the state

I raised concerns about this on the editor’s Talk page, first in brief narrative fashion, followed by templates when the edits continued without response. See link. Since then the unexplained and apparently POV edits have continued:

John Johnson – dab page – removed link to John Johnson (Latter Day Saints), "early Latter Day Saint and owner of the John Johnson Farm, a historical site in Mormonism"
Republican Party (United States) – removed entire section on LGBT issues as well as other references to gays; also a description of Jews as voting mostly Democratic.

I am bringing the matter here because the edits are, to my eyes, troubling, and need attention; and the editor is unresponsive. Furthermore the editor has a long and apparently productive history here, and these excisions are not so plainly “vandalism” or disruption that they’re suitable for AIV if they continue.

Thanks in advance for any comments and / or assistance. JohnInDC (talk) 10:54, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

The edit summary shortened, simplified and removed possible redundant content is not reflective of the edits which are often completely removing all mention of specific groups of people. How can content be redundant if you remove all of it that concerns gays or Jews? These edits definitely are imposing a strange POV where some people are just erased from the public record. Liz Read! Talk! 12:04, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
He's trying to purge Wikipedia of any evidence for the existence of people who aren't Christian and Republican. In May, he even removed references to the Democratic Party from over 100 articles (and was reverted).[1][2][3] I would support an indefinite block for deceptive editing. KateWishing (talk) 13:13, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support indef block - even though he has a long history and a clean block record, this editor appears to either have become very extreme of late or decided he's WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia anymore. These edits account for vandalism in my opinion and given the particular topics of his dislike, I don't see the editor cheerfully avoiding them in the future. МандичкаYO 😜 13:33, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
In addition, he's not responsive at his talk page, the last time he responded there seems to be to thank someone over 5 years ago. As for the recent edits, the edit summaries clearly misrepresent the edits, and his removal of content has become clearly disruptive. Despite his constructive edits, these edits suggest WP:NOTHERE. Doug Weller (talk) 13:34, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
JohnInDC was concerned about the wrong citations Packerfansam had added to several Wisconsin Legislators article very recently. I had been looking at Packerfansam's Wisconsin Legislators articles to see if a category, etc., needs to be added. I did add the correct Wisconsin Blue Books citation to the articles that JohnInDC was concerned about. And I was concerned about about Packerfansam removing the political affliations of several Wisconsin Legislators articles with no reasons given. I hope this helps-Thank youRFD (talk) 15:31, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Is it possible this account is compromised ? Considering his long history of productive edits, then this sudden shift ... maybe it's something to look at ? KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 15:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
I had the same thought but in the main, the edit interests seem to have been pretty stable. I guess in the final analysis it doesn't matter - the edits are unacceptable no matter who's responsible. (It is mystifying though.) JohnInDC (talk) 15:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Note that he stopped editing in August of last year, and when he returned 24 April, this is when the problems began. The possibility of a compromised account is real, as is a CIR issue. He has never been one to communicate, I didn't see any talk in his contribs. Dennis Brown - 02:36, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
A CIR issue may still be at hand. Medication, life events, all kinds of things can change a person's competency, either temporarily or permanently. Dennis Brown - 15:33, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
First things, despite the assumption, I'm a 'she'. Second, to answer people's suspicions, I have numerous health issues that have escalated in recent times. I don't feel it's necessary to go into specifics, but is it possible they can effect my judgment? Sure. That, along with other issues in my life can explain gaps between logging in, such as the last couple days. Now, I think along with some of the other issues being discussed, my not logging in for two days is being exaggerated. It was not because of these accusations, I didn't received a notice of this until I just logged in for this session. Sometimes health and other life issues take my attention. The extended length between updates last year involves family issues that, again, I don't think it's necessary to be specific about. If, during these times, I was hacked and I haven't realized it, my apologies. I have recently changed my password, maybe that would help to stop other possible issues. Now, the concerns about the links to the Wisconsin Blue Book tend to can be tough I understand. Google Books reverts you back to the original page you were on prior. If you were looking as something on page 1 and later decide to post a link for page 2, it decides to take you back to 1. Some of the re-categorizing is simply because it doesn't seem like the article necessarily belongs there, such as with Category:Mayors of places in Wisconsin, where there were some subjects whose job titles didn't match the criteria. Thanks to those who have offered their support. Packerfansam (talk) 20:04, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for your response here, and good luck with your health issues. Can you please offer an explanation, for example, for this edit [4] to Precursor (religion), where you removed sourced materiel regarding non-Christian religions. This type of POV edit, with no (in this case) or misleading (in other cases) is the heart of my concern, and perhaps others. Was it judgement impairment due to illness, as you suggested some of the unaddressed issues might be? Or, are you asserting that your account was WP:COMPROMISED? The key is to understand (a) which other edits your account may have made, like that, with no or misleading edit summaries, that still need to be fixed, and (b) can you offer an assurance that such editing will not happen again. An acknowledgement of why it really happened will help other editors have confidence in your continued participation. Otherwise, why should you not be topic-banned from editing articles about religion and politics? JoeSperrazza (talk) 21:04, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
@Packerfansam: could you please address some of the issues such as Joe's question above?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 21:09, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, let me first address that if anything I did seemed to be misleading or deceptive in articles, I deeply apologize. It seems to me, among other things, if you have a certain location (city, state, etc.) where the residents are overwhelmingly affiliated with a certain group or denomination, it bloats the article and makes it excessively long if you go into detail about other groups that make up a microscopic (sometimes like 0.15% or less) portion of the population and the culture. Thanks Packerfansam (talk) 21:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
As for being compromised, I can't answer definitely without carefully combing through and trying to remember things, but it's happened with me on other sites in the past so it's possible. Packerfansam (talk) 21:25, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm unpersuaded. That reasoning would maybe explain removing mention of Jews in Kansas (though it's 2%, not .015%) but it certainly is hard to square with editing out Jews in New York City or mention of the "largest gay and bisexual community in the United States" that is found there. That's just one counterexample - there are several others cited above, and below as well. JohnInDC (talk) 22:00, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
First, let me point out that it was 0.15 not .015, there is a difference. In regards to NYC, there was a section about the city's many, many landmarks and none of the others were mentioned by name, except for I think it was Greenwich, as if it were special or more noteworthy than the others. Without getting into what's right or wrong even, it seems strange to me that one should be especially singled out and recognized apart from the others. Packerfansam (talk) 03:50, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Pardon, but that is an inadequate if not disingenuous explanation for this [5] edit to NYC, where, as you did with many other edits, you removed all mention of non-Christian religions:

Christianity is the most prevalently practiced religion in New York, followed by Judaism, with approximately 1.1 million Jews (יהודי) in New York City,[1][2] over half living in Brooklyn.[3] Islam ranks third in New York City, with official estimates ranging between 600,000 and 1,000,000 observers and including 10% of the city's public schoolchildren,[4] followed by Hinduism, Buddhism, and a variety of other religions, as well as atheism or self-identifying with no organized religious affiliation.


  1. ^ "World Jewish Population". – Judaism Online. Retrieved September 2, 2012.
  2. ^ "Jewish Community Study of New York: 2011 Comprehensive Report" (PDF). UJA-Federation of New York. Retrieved August 13, 2014.
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference BrooklynJewish was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. ^ Marc Santora and Sharon Otterman (March 4, 2015). "New York City Adds 2 Muslim Holy Days to Public School Calendar". The New York Times. Retrieved March 4, 2015.
Try again. JoeSperrazza (talk) 05:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

─────────────────────────Please let's don't go through these one by one, arguing whether ".15" or ".015" makes the edits any more defensible. A full-throated denial would be a good start - if Packerfansam doesn't want to go through her contribution history to identify the odious edits that were made by a hacker using her name, the examples here are sufficient to tell her in an instant whether she was responsible for them. Absent a straight-up denial, which we don't have, an acknowledgment or recognition that maybe, perhaps, it's problematic to remove references to, e.g., Jews in New York, Muslims in Michigan, gay marriage from the Republican Party, the Jewish ancestry and civil rights advocacy of a German lawyer, the sexual orientation of a the first gay Republican legislator in Wisconsin, or - by the IP a day ago - the sexual orientation of the Swedish Womens' Soccer team coach. And that's before we even start on the misleading edit summaries that accompanied these changes (for which she offers a conditional apology). So far I see nothing to assure us that Packerfansam recognizes these edits as problematic or that she will not make similar edits going forward. JohnInDC (talk) 11:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Continued problematic editing that is continuing to occur noted here, together with Good hand/bad hand editing noted here are both of considerable concern. JoeSperrazza (talk) 12:08, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Okay, this is what certain people seem to want to see - yes, I made updates that are causing this debacle. You can argue about my judgment and whether it's been altered. To me, in my judgment in what I recall, it seemed proper. I don't necessarily know if it was to the excess others believe it was, so I can't rule out a hack. I don't have plans to go out and make particularly controversial edits, my plan for the imminent future is to continue with legislator bios, creating and updating articles as would be appropriate with that. Packerfansam (talk), 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Response & comment - This is at best a grudging acknowledgment by Packerfansam of the problems she has caused with her POV edits and misleading summaries, not to mention (indeed not mentioned) the edit warring and sock puppetry. It isn't just "some people" who want to see an explanation and assurances, but nearly every single person who has participated in this discussion. I do not believe that Packerfansam appreciates that her edits contravened Wikipedia policy, or that that were in any way improper or disruptive. That being said I also believe that the foregoing is about all we are going to get out of her on the subject, and, as halfhearted as it is, it is something. She is, at least, speaking about it. Going forward, which I assume will take place without a block, I personally would like to see something a little more explicit about the ground rules, whether it comes from her, or from us, by rough agreement. Maybe something like, "no edits to remove content from articles re religion, sexual preference or other demographic characteristics" - I don't know. What I do know is that "no immediate plans" to make controversial edits is not reassuring, and isn't very helpful as a standard against which to measure future behavior. Thoughts and / or comments welcome. Thanks. JohnInDC (talk) 01:43, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Look, I have no idea what can offend some people. To me, for instance, creating an article about a notable politician, listing them in the proper areas for where they were born, where they lived and went to school and things like that doesn't seem like it should bother anybody. But I can't be sure what somebody could have a problem with. Can I give 100% certainty that nobody will ever have a problem with something I write ever again? No. Do I want to go through this stress again when I already have enough in my life? Also no. Packerfansam (talk) 03:15, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
If what you mean by that is that you intend henceforth to stick to creating stub articles for Wisconsin politicians, then you are much less likely to run into POV and bias problems. I would recommend including the political affiliation of the subjects, when it is in the sources, and ensuring that the sources you cite actually link to the subject of the article you are creating. I, we, are not asking you to promise you'll never offend anyone again; rather we are asking that you stop removing material from articles because something about it offends you. Thanks. Now let's see what some of the other editors have to say about this. JohnInDC (talk) 03:57, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
I found your response to be very disappointing. I had thought you "got it", and were willing to move forward, but just didn't want to explicitly own up to your mistakes. But your answers, above, make me wonder. Do you really think the issue was a vague, hard to understand "some people" being "offend"ed? Do you really think the issue was anything to do with was "creating an article about a notable politician, listing them in the proper areas for where they were born, where they lived and went to school and things like "? If so, you have a serious problem of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and or a problem with competence. Examples were laid out for you very clearly here and on your talk page. You are ignoring those details here, and have repeatedly blanked them on your talk page. As a reminder, the problems include this list and many more:
Michigan – removed a religious affiliation table, and all narrative references to Jews, Muslims
  • New York City – removed textual references to the Stonewall Inn, Jews, LBGT demographics, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism
  • Gabriel Riesser – removed description of subject’s Jewish ancestry and its consequences for the subject
  • Hamburg – removed references to Muslims, Jews
  • Kansas – removed references to Mormons, Jews, Muslims and other less-represented religions in the state
  • John Johnson – dab page – removed link to John Johnson (Latter Day Saints), "early Latter Day Saint and owner of the John Johnson Farm, a historical site in Mormonism"
  • Republican Party (United States) – removed entire section on LGBT issues as well as other references to gays; also a description of Jews as voting mostly Democratic.
  • [6][7][8] removed references to the Democratic Party from over 100 articles
  • [9] remove mention of Jews in New York City
  • [10] removal of the sexual orientation of the Swedish Womens' Soccer team coach
  • Special:Contributions/ most troublesome, was your Good hand/bad hand editing, with your logged out editing all, with 2 exceptions, being reverted by editors as being disruptive
Are you really sure you want to continue in this way? JoeSperrazza (talk) 04:16, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Time to close We do not know the full circumstances under which Packerfansam is editing. We know he has health issues and we should leave it at that. He is constructively engaging editors about issues they have, and although we may strongly disagree with some of the edits he has made, he clearly wants to edit constructively and with good faith. Could there be future problems? Sure, but we can deal with them should they arise. Let's assume good faith and encourage Packerfansam to continue editing. --I am One of Many (talk) 05:32, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. Again, it's she, either way, much appreciated. Packerfansam (talk) 05:37, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
I apologize for getting your gender wrong! --I am One of Many (talk) 05:41, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
It is not too much to ask that Packerfansam state precisely what she intends to do, or not do, going forward; or that we collectively outline our expectations of her. Her POV and misleading edits were blockable and while she is now at least discussing them, she has given no indication at all that she appreciates what the problem is (apologizing if she has been misleading; confessing to having no idea which of her edits "might offend some people", as though unpredictably thin-skinned readers were the heart of it) and I would like just a bit of clarity about what is expected of her going forward so that if, three or four weeks - or 5 months - hence, we see a new run of POV purges, someone can point back and say, "that is not what you said you would do". If she does not understand the problem, then she can't exercise meaningful judgment in avoiding it in the future. Other than that - yes, I agree, we are done here. JohnInDC (talk) 10:46, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
I think it is too much at this point. Packerfansam has edited here, without issues, for years. If there are issues in the next few weeks or months, we can deal with them. If the edits in question were due to misunderstandings and/or lapses in judgement, then moving on means she moves on to continued constructive editing. If we continue to push this thing, maybe she says "The hell with this, I don't need this in my life.", she moves on, and we lose another editor. You have accomplished what is important: She is aware of the issues, acknowledged them, stated that she wants to contribute constructively. Now, let's assume good faith and deal with issues in the future if they occur. --I am One of Many (talk) 17:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Can't seem to quit - Promises notwithstanding, Packerfansam just this morning edited Omaha, Nebraska to remove mention of synagogues in the city. Diff here. She does not seem able to help herself. She has been systematically removing references in articles to non-Christians and non-traditional sexual orientations and despite the extensive discussion here - as well as her claim that she doesn't want any more headaches - she continues to do so. She does not understand the problem, and she is manifestly unable to stop. JohnInDC (talk) 14:50, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
Agreed. It's getting ridiculous at this point. I am One of Many, I applaud your efforts to caution restraint, but I daresay that assuming good faith at this point at this point would be counterproductive and deleterious to the project. And to be honest, a bit silly. Editors are beginning to become exasperated cleaning up her POV edits, which she apparently has no intention of stopping. As of now, the editor has shown no actual remorse, has been generally avoidant and disingenuous, ignored several attempts to communicate, and is unrelenting in making their unabashedly POV edits (often coupled with misleading edit summaries). Whether they've contributed any significant content in the past is immaterial, and a point rendered moot considering the fact that this behaviour is continuing. For some time, the editor in question has been editing with an obvious political / religious agenda, and is completely unapologetic in doing so. This discussion has gone on for almost a week now, and extending them any good will is almost abetting the disruption, and appears to be only forestalling an inevitable indefinite block. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 20:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
Support Indefinite block, per above, and no efforts to alter their behaviour or even acknowledge that this is inappropriate. An unblock, of course, should be conditional on a promise to reach consensus regarding removal or wholesale alteration of material related to religion, race, and sexual orientation. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 20:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
No sign of abating - Early this morning (June 23) she removed a reference to a "figure study of a nude young woman" painted by artist Clarence Holbrook Carter as "POV". A couple of editors recently weighed in on her Talk page, urging her to steer clear of religion, so it bears repeating that she has never confined her excisions to those matters, but has swept in sexuality as well - e.g., removing references to various subjects' sexual orientation, and LGBT political issues; edit warring at University of Wisconsin–Madison to remove "Playboy" as as reference on the ground that it is not reliable or a place for respected or credible journalism. Repeated admonitions don't seem to have had much effect, but if suasion is the path to be followed, it should at least be comprehensive. JohnInDC (talk) 11:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Time to close Issues are now about content and not behavior. Behavior has been mis-characterized in above "Can't seem to quit" where the editor removed an uncited sentence as much about Christians as it was about Jews. Attempts to paint this as anti-semitic fall short. Subsequently, you removed cited material that she added in a blind revert. Uncool. The material under "No sign of abating" is unsourced and indeed has a POV because of striking which is opinion..."Carter's striking figure study...". Being unsourced she can remove it...personally, I would have just removed the adjective but her actions aren't egregious here. The other diffs are old rehash from May. It is beginning to look as if editors have an ax to grind. Defer to dispute resolution for content matters.
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 15:35, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - I disagree that it has become a kind of rolling content dispute, and I don't care for the suggestion that I've got an axe to grind. Packerfansam's editing focus and pattern (religion / sexuality / politics) beyond the creation of short articles in my view remains unchanged. And too I confess to being a bit mystified by the deference that is being shown to her given that she has failed to address any but one or two of her earlier, indefensible edits (and those, only in the most general of terms). But I do agree that this has become a huge time sink, and my own convictions notwithstanding, the issue seems to be finding no purchase here. I don't like seeing my credibility as an editor called into question, so I will let this go if that's the decision. JohnInDC (talk) 16:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
  • So she removed one reference to Christianity (that also removed more Jewish info) after this AfD began? (And again, that would be valid population info that she randomly stripped it out for no reason from an article about a major U.S. city, well after this AfD began). Yes, I see how that definitely proves she has no problems with Jews and there's no problem with behavior.... МандичкаYO 😜 14:24, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Hoaxing again at Kenny Loggins[edit]

We need a range block because of recent activity by the long-term hoaxer, the Kenny Loggins vandal. IPs involved today are:

Perhaps we can temporarily rangeblock 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0. Thanks in advance. Binksternet (talk) 18:08, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

And now another spate of hoaxing by 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0:A1D3:9BE1:C1A2:3BFC (talk+ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · checkuser (log)).
15 of the last 16 hoaxer IPs started with 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0, so it would be very helpful to block this range. Binksternet (talk) 01:27, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
And very quickly after that one we have this one: 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0:7132:4B62:E645:80BE (talk+ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · checkuser (log))
Still looking for an appropriate rangeblock. Binksternet (talk) 01:34, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
  • HEY. ADMINS. SOMEBODY GIVE BINKSTERNET A RANGEBLOCK PLEASE. I'd do if if I knew how to. I mean, I can, but I'd probably block a whole state. That still doesn't make me care, as long as it's not my own state, but the Foundation will probably cut my allowance. Drmies (talk) 02:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
    • @Drmies: Maybe this will help: IPv6 range calculation tool. It was recommended last time this came up here, and I bookmarked it. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:18, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
      • Thanks, but I really shouldn't be messing with any ranges... Drmies (talk) 14:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
        • The range needed to cover the four above IPs, as calculated from that tool, is 2602:306:bd7e:caa0::/64 - I have no idea if this is a sensible range to block though. Sam Walton (talk) 15:04, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
          • mw:Help:Range_blocks/IPv6 implies that this covers 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 IPs, so perhaps not appropriate. That said, that's a fraction of the total possible IPv6 IPs, so I have no idea. Sam Walton (talk) 15:07, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
            • Pinging Mr. IPv6 Jasper Deng to see if he can help out. And (canvassing) perhaps more admins could put in their two cents here? --NeilN talk to me 15:19, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
              • Just trying to bring another issue to your attention here, so not sure if it is appropriate for me to comment, but a 64 bit prefix is the minimum fully functional subnet that can be allocated. So it is probably a very good fit to block BFG (talk) 15:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
  • @Drmies and Samwalton9: 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0::/64 indeed is the range you want to block. The duration you should use for this is the same as you would use for a single AT&T IPv4 address, although this should be considered more static than a dynamic IPv4. If it's a residential Internet provider, a /64 in IPv6, i.e. having the first four digit groups in common, is easily treatable as a single IP. Do not be deterred by the number of addresses blocked, because by design very few of them will be used.--Jasper Deng (talk) 16:07, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Jasper, I appreciate the note, but I'm just not going to venture there. I wish we had a button we could push that would pull up a list of admins willing and able to make rangeblocks. I'm not one of them. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 15:58, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Just to add a technical note, while a /64 should be, and appears here to be a single user akin to an IPv4 address, the protocol is new enough that we should keep in mind the possibility that it may not always be, with either rapidly changing /64s from one user, or many users on one /64. Also, when this block expires, if we need to extend it again, linking the previous range block log may help get a quicker block. Monty845 00:07, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
I do have to emphasize that looking at WHOIS is of utmost importance with IPv6; my comment strongly depends on the ISP being residential. It most certainly does not apply to mobile or satellite ISP's.Jasper Deng (talk) 03:33, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks NeilN. No wonder I hadn't seen it--it's only been here since 2008. As far as I'm concerned, though, it should be renamed: "able to make..." Drmies (talk) 01:31, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Problematic behavior by Seattleditor - Probably COI, personal attacks, disruptive editing.[edit]

User in question indef blocked as NOTHERE by Bishonen, and suspect article was deleted at AfD. So this appears resolved. Closing. (non-admin closure) --IJBall (contribstalk) 22:59, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Seattleditor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) has been editing on Roger Libby the past few days. Their edits on the article's talk page indicate a conflict of interest and, up until now, they've mostly keep their editing to that talk page. Today, after I edited the page to reduce its SOAPy nature, they began removing maintenance templates from the page. I attempted to engage the user about it (here). They had done similarly in the past ([37]) saying it would negative effect the article subject's customers. After this, the user made this edit on my talk page accusing me deliberate malice that requires admin review and that I explained to you that as a practicing psychologist and psychotherapist, it is highly damaging to this licensed mental health professional to have his biography marked up with questions and errata.

I am requesting admin action on this. It appears that either the user is unable to handle their COI or they are NOTHERE. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 03:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

agreed, there's a dearth of sources on that article and those that are there are almost all primary sources, Seattleditor is removing the tags indicating that fact, that's not cool at all. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 17:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Moreover, their use of "we" in their post on my user talk page makes me think the COI here is strong. Their post was completely out of line. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:10, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

In Response, EvergreenFir Has Misinterpreted Both Intent and Concerns[edit]

I am a practicing journalist, one who abides by the Code of Ethics of the Society of Professional Journalists, who wrote an article about this Dr. for a Seattle area publication. There is no COI on my part. However EvergreenFir has several COIs. First, his only authored page, for a Murray A. Strauss, bios a person who is a rival of the good doctor. Most ironically, the two doctors authored a major research paper together on sex and violence (which contradicts the claim of no secondary sources, the editor's own biographical subject was a collaborator.) I mean no personal animosity or offense but the other apparent COI is in the editor's (EvergreenFir) profile where he has elected to make various statements about his own gender issues. Regardless of personal bias, it is not clear to me how a distinguished position title within an organization can be secondarily sourced. Where such attribution exists, it has been provided (such as to membership rosters on publicly accessible pages.) What is curious is why the editor does not choose to actually edit the text which has gone untouched for a great many months, and instead inject uncertainty and doubt. In fact, I had expressed my misgivings that this could do harm if the patients of this practicing sex therapist found that the same page that had been untouched for so long is suddenly pockmarked with multiple assertions of errata. When I "Talked" about that to EvergreenFir I stated that, for my part, I was open to any edits he may like to provide but I requested he did not make the doctor appear unworthy or uncredentialed in light of the concurrent sensitivities of doctor-patient relationships. I presumed he was okay with that so I removed the template(s) for that reason and that reason alone. Please be advised, I did not author the section on the countless TV and radio appearances made by Dr. Libby which EvergreenFir has since removed. The "We" in my writing simply connotes that Dr. Libby sought my help since he was aware I had helped contribute to the original content. I have no COI whereas EvergreenFir 's COI is well documented. The fact of the matter is that Dr. Roger Libby is America's premiere Sex Therapist. If that is disturbing to this editor, he is welcome to call in a colleague. Oh, he actually did that and the colleague acknowledged that the academic credentials (post-doctoral) being beyond reproach. It seems to this relative neophyte that Wikipedia needs a way to make sourcing changes, IF necessary "behind the scenes" and not in a shameful, public way that casts doubt on the credibility or authority of a biography, especially in the cases of practicing health care professionals. Seattleditor (talk) 21:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I think you might be a little confused as to how Wikipedia works. Writing an article for inclusion in a magazine kind of skirts the line of WP:NOTWEBHOST. But more importantly, if negative things about your friend can be reliably sourced, I'm afraid that isn't a violation of policy; see WP:BLP. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 00:55, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Can someone please take care of these personal attacks? How does my gender identity have anything to do with this? And if the subject of an article asked you to come and comment on their Wikipedia article, that's a WP:COI (whereas writing articles about criminologists is not)... Seattleditor if you are the author of that article, then you are Searchwriter and currently sockpuppeting... EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
  • The bio is certainly problematic as it contains just one secondary source, and most of it is unsourced. One solution is to remove anything unsourced and slowly re-build it. Seattleditor, if you're editing with two accounts, please pick one and retire the other (or link them in some way). Also, please don't make personal comments about EvergreenFir. Sarah (talk) 01:36, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
  • There's also an issue with the image, which Seattleeditor added as his own work, but the image is on Libby's website. [38] Unless Seattleeditor took that photograph, it needs a release. Sarah (talk) 01:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Regarding the image, since it appears on the banner of a copyrighted website, I've requested deletion at Commons unless the uploader can show OTRS either ownership or a license to use the image from the copyright owner. BMK (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
I whittled down the article quite a bit (diff) which was the apparent impetus for the hostility. Quite annoyed at these attacks and ridiculous claims. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:46, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Searchwriter started the Libby article at User:Searchwriter/sandbox on 20 February 2014. The image was uploaded by Seattle24x7 on 21 February 2014, and Seattleeditor says he is Seattle24x7, so the three accounts do seem to be one person. Yes, the attacks need to stop. Sarah (talk) 02:00, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
  • It seems from a brief look at Seattle24x7 and related websites that this is SEO/marketing. Perhaps it's better handled at COIN in case other articles or accounts are involved. Pinging Jytdog in case he wants to take a look. Sarah (talk) 04:50, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
I left a long message for SeattleEditor at their talk page. Too long for ANI. I'd ask that folks give him a chance to reply there. Basically I am recommending that SeattleEditor change course or that we indef him per NOTHERE. Let's see what he says. Jytdog (talk) 14:20, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
@Jytdog: Thank you for taking the time to do that. Much appreciated. I hope the user responds favorably. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 16:19, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Jytdog, ditto, thank you. Sarah (talk) 17:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Possibility of paid editing[edit]

As noted above, the Roger Libby article began in the sandbox of User:Searchwriter, as did the article Lane Powell, about a Seattle law firm. Both of the articles appear to have been intended to be promotional, and have only been rendered acceptable by stripping out large amounts of information which is unsourced or attributed only to primary sources.

The user page for Searchwriter says:

This is the User Page for the editor of, a Seattle news bureau Website. Thanks for your interest and comments. Everything we contribute to WikiPedia is fully "white-hat," attributed, and well-documented and includes citations.

The account name User talk:Seattle24x7 was username blocked in 2010. No edits exist in their contrib list, but their talk page indicates that they wrote an article on a book titled "The High Road Has Less Traffic", which was prodded as being self-published, and subsequently deleted at AfD as being non-notable.

The account User:Seattleditor was created just a few days ago, apparently for the purpose of editing the Roger Libby article. On their userpage they acknowledge that their former user name was "Seattle24x7", the name of their "Seattle-based e-zine". An examinination of the website shows quite clearly that it's a public-relations outlet: many of the articles are written by the CEOs of the companies they're about. This is clearly not a WP:RS, and not even a blog, it is, as its browser tab quite clearly states "Seattle's Internet Business Directory and Calendar".

What we have here is, I believe, paid editing on the part of Seattleeditor aka Seattle24x7 and Searchwriter. Seattleeditor is not " a practicing journalist ... who abides by the Code of Ethics of the Society of Professional Journalists", he's a PR guy for hire, who'll do up an article on your law firm or your controversial medical practise, or whatever for his own "e-zine" or for Wikipedia.

I suggest that the unblocked accounts be blocked unless they comply with our requirements for paid editors as outlined on WP:TOU and WP:COI. That means an admission on their user page, and on article talk page of their conflict of interest and their status as a paid editor. It also means that they cannot directly edit the articles, but must make suggestions on the talk page which other editors can implement if they agree. BMK (talk) 22:26, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Incidentally, folks should read Seattleditor's reply to Jytdog on their talk page here for an example of how not to write in a comprehensible way, how to hide the true nature of one's publication in convoluted and deceptive language, with phrases such as "pro bono" thrown in to make things look better, and how, in particular, not to answer straight-forward questions in a straight-forward manner. BMK (talk) 23:21, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Three other items:
  • A picture of Dr. Libby was previously uploaded on by user Searchwriter, and deleted for permission problems. Admins can look and see if File:Dr. Roger Libby in 2014.png is the same image that's currently in the article, which I have requested deletion of on Commons for the same reason.
  • There's no doubt that the three accounts are the same person. After User:Seattle24x7 was username blocked, User:Seattleditor refrerred to it as his previous account. On the talk page of User:Searchwriter the editor reveals his real world name, and on the "Seattle24x7" website, the person of that name is described as "founder, publisher and managing editor of Seattle24x7, the founder of SearchWrite Search Marketing, an SEO, PPC and Social Media Thought Leader, and an SPJ award winner for Seattle magazine." This accords with the information in Seattleditor's response to Jytdog;s inquiry, and also reinforces the suspicion that SEO/promotion is what's going on here -- i.e. paid editing.
  • Seattleditor's response on the Commons deletion request is informative. [39]
(Incidentally, my understanding is that my second item is not WP:outing because the user revealed the information on their talk page. If an admin feels it oversteps the bounds, please delete the item.) BMK (talk) 12:21, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
BMK FYI, in my first iterations of my note to SeattleEditor I included their name in a quote from the "about the author" section of the seattle24x7 profile of Libby, and later redacted it. I emailed oversight and asked them to oversight the pre-redaction versions. They declined, saying it was not a violation of OUTING. So we are OK on using his RW name. Jytdog (talk) 00:35, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for that info. BMK (talk) 04:34, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Propose indef per WP:NOTHERE[edit]

So SeattleEditor's reply was not what any of us wanted. They are NOTHERE and appear to be dug in so far that there is no teaching them how to be HERE at this time. Jytdog (talk) 00:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC) (add missing "no" Jytdog (talk) 04:56, 19 June 2015 (UTC))

  • Support EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:27, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per their response to Jytdog. BMK (talk) 02:37, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per their response to Jytdog and another response to me. I asked two simple yes/no questions and got more evasive, combative, non-responsive verbal spew. We don't have the time or energy to waste on this gaming of the system. — Brianhe (talk) 04:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. I support sanctions against User:Seattleditor. I wish there was a WP:POMPOUS essay, but I'll just have to be left with citing meta:Don't be a jerk (in reference to comments aimed at EGF). (Oh, and is WP:PEACOCK even allowed as an argument against an editor's comments? Well, then, that, too.)
In addition to NOTHERE cited in the title, for the record I also agree that there is a violation of WP:NPOV here that rises to WP:COI. I was hoping for @Jytdog:'s promised WP:COIN post before weighing in, but the original {{long}} comment is incorporated by reference to the reply to it, above.
I also agree that there may be a WP:SOCK issue here (I'd hope EGF will file a WP:SPI if appropriate). I'm not really sure which is worse, COI or SOCK, I feel they are both duplicitous.   —Aladdin Sane (talk) 04:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Since Jimbo probably wouldn't approve, I'll refrain from suggesting an alternate title for an essay on how to respond to such contributors... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:01, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Holding note. There is consensus for an indef block per WP:NOTHERE. Unless something else eventuates, I intend to place that block after the AfD discussion mentioned below has been decided; Seattleditor should preferably have a chance to comment in the AfD. Please feel free to continue discussing Jytdog's block proposal in this section while we wait. Bishonen | talk 22:32, 21 June 2015 (UTC).
  • So where do we stand now? I'm still very offended by the editor above referring to EGF in the masculine. I do look at that before using these pronouns. EGF hasn't declared a preferred pronoun, but has declared GQ. So, no more pronouns there for me. I disagree to a large extent to what EGF has said on the talk pages of the Caitlyn Jenner article, but not to the extent of actually going to battle about it. This editor may yet convince me that they are right and I am wrong. I'm willing to listen. (And not willing to contribute to the article to that extent; I admit ignorance.)
So what now? How do we move forward with a sanction against User:Seattleditor?
What I say is to follow P&P (Policy and procedure), cite COI, NPOV violations, SPA and potentially SP (sock puppeting). With these accusations against Seattleditor how can WP:POMPOUS prevail as an alternative narrative (it's OK to blow-hole against editors here, really?)? Impose a sanction, I'm not really clear which sanction is appropriate, but let it be clear that esteemed editors (regardless of our disagreement with them) are not to be attacked with pomposity, and not facts. This does not, and shall not, intimidate us.
Understand, those listening in, that as my understanding goes, that this ANI was originally filed based on this: User talk:EvergreenFir#We appeal to the highest authority. I think I just coughed up a lung.
We're all still waiting for Seattleditor to have EGF "disbarred" here.   —Aladdin Sane (talk) 06:39, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Roger Libby now on AfD[edit]

Literally all the sources of the article are primary sources, in the sense of being publications by Dr Libby himself — not "nearly" all, a phrase used above I suppose in honour of the current note 13. That footnote appears to cite a different author, Murray A. Straus, which may mislead the unwary, but it actually references a 1978 anthology which contains an article by Libby; i. e., that too is a primary source. Or not a source so much; it's a publication, an article, which appears in the list of Libby's publications. So, no secondary sources, and none have been offered since Evergreen Fir tagged the article three weeks ago. On the contrary, User:Seattleditor, a single purpose account, has attempted to remove the tags protesting that they're "damaging to the credibility of the doctor" and "deleterious to the patients of the doctor".[40] (That edit was made by an IP, clearly User:Seattleditor logged out accidentally, not attempting in any way to hide.) All this suggests to me that Roger Libby shouldn't be on Wikipedia. We don't do self-sourced bios, because they can't show notability. I've listed it on Articles for deletion. Seattleditor's understanding of policy does appear to be poor, and the way they answer questions quite evasive, but perhaps we might as well put off the issue of a block until the AfD is done, so that they can take part in it. Bishonen | talk 07:31, 21 June 2015 (UTC).

  • Bishonen, I thank you for your wise intervention.
There is a point that I wish to clarify for those listening in: "User:Seattleditor, a single purpose account" is not a reference to the Dr. Libby article. Instead, the SPA accusation, is I feel, accurate, on the basis that the user advocates for articles written at Seattle24x7. Dr. Libby's article there happens to be among those (as has been proven by others, above). The "single purpose" here, is about Seattle24x7, a PR news site (as another user put it, "CEO porn"), not about Dr. Libby himself.   —Aladdin Sane (talk) 18:26, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
  • just fyi - i received an email from a person saying he was Roger Libby. Not happy about the tags on the article and among other things wrote: "In (sic - meant "if" i believe) my many publications, academic and professional credentials and references (including the links to professional associations which are publicly accessible online) are not sufficient, I would ask you to immediately remove the page entirely as it calls into question my professional standing given your editorial staff's lack of certainty in my credentials. Under the circumstances, I consider the "public editing" of the page to be damaging to my professional sex therapy practice and my reputation. Frankly, it has me wondering what other options might exist for what I sincerely believe to be an act of defamation. It appears that on Wikipedia everyone is guilty until proven innocent." I'll also make a note of this on the AfD. I replied nicely and fwded to wmf legal. Jytdog (talk) 15:04, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
    Thank you @Jytdog:! EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:13, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Good thing Libby isn't an editor here, since "Frankly, it has me wondering what other options might exist for what I sincerely believe to be an act of defamation" is a not-so-veiled legal threat. (One that I hope he doesn't go through with, since all he'll do is throw away a lot of money, as there is obviously no "defamation" in determining that he doesn't qualify under our notablity guidelines.) Perhaps Libby will think twice next time before engaging a SEO/PR person who doesn't understand Wikipedia -- and if he could tell his professional friends that as well, all the better for us. There are a hell of a lot of doctors in the English-speaking world, but only a very tiny percentage of them qualify for a having a Wikipedia article. BMK (talk) 20:26, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Unacceptable behavior of editor[edit]


I want to inform you about unacceptable behavior of the editor Croata concerning the articles Bulgars/ Dulo clan.

During the past 3 months (since the beginning of March 2015) he was constantly removing all my edits on these articles stating that they were "vandalism", "unrelated info", "false positive edits", "fringe theories edits" or simply calling them POV. He denies the reliability of obviously excellent sources as Yury Zuev and Edwin G. Pulleyblank stating that they represent minority point of view. For example on 19 June 2015‎ he removed my edit on the article Bulgars where I have added information about the origin of Utigurs, a major Bulgar tribe, stating that the edit is "false positive" and "unrelated info". On 6 June 2015‎ I have warned him that in his version of the article Dulo clan, his conclusion "Bulgars belonged to the group of Turkic peoples" is not supported by the cited four books - nowhere on the cited pages there is such a conclusion. He ignored my warning and reverted the article 6 times after that without bothering to correct this sentence or to remove it. On the talk page of Dulo clan article I have suggested many ways how to improve the article, for example :

  • I have suggested to move the information about the historical rulers of the clan from the section "Research History" to the article's intro where this information should be placed because it is well documented
  • I have suggested to removed the information that early rulers of the clan were claiming Attilid descend from the article's intro to "Research History" or to restate it in the form that some historians think they had such a descend. It is not known if they were claiming this.
  • I have suggested to improve the article Bulgars by replacing the very first sentence "... semi-nomadic warrior tribes of Turkic extraction" with more accurate statement " The three major tribes were Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs, whose origin is still unidentified"

None of these suggestions (and many more) were accepted. The editor Croata doesn't accept any independent additions, he considers his versions of the articles to be final and set in stone. Also he tends to place disproportionate importance of the Turkic theory about the origin of Bulgars and Dulo clan and doesn't accept other theories about their origin to be added to the articles. Such a behavior is unacceptable and it does not help the readers of these articles.

PavelStaykov (talk) 01:50, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

  • I've reformatted. You didn't notify Crovata, and misspelled his name. The very top of this page clearly states you must do this. I have gone ahead and done so. Now to look at the merits.... Dennis Brown - 02:04, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
  • This is going to take longer than I have to give tonight, but the other stuff still needed doing. User:Bbb23 is familiar with Crovata, so I would draw his attention here. Looking briefly, it seems more of a content dispute, but there may be some behavioral issues by one or both, so I will leave to B and others to determine. Dennis Brown - 02:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
  • No promises, but I'll try to look at this tomorrow.--Bbb23 (talk) 04:53, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I experience technical problems and don't know if will manage to actively follow the discussion. However, I neither have time to waste discussing the same thing over and over and over again. The violation of WP:NPOV principles, lack of neutrality and knowledge of the editor PavelStaykov, and in general about the topic and dispute, you can read at his talk page, Bulgars Talk and Dulo clan Talk. The scholars Zuev and Pulleyblank were only lately introduced, not months ago, and their minor claims have no relation to Bulgars. It is related with Utigurs and their article. The Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs were not Bulgar tribes, they were different tribes who in periods were part of Bulgar confederation, but whose names etymologically clearly show Turkic origin. The articles of Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs areas badly written, and currently work on them. He never answered which "four books", and I ask him again to respond. A simple read of the Bulgars article is enough to dismiss his claims, and often personal original research (which he calls "independent"). The Turkic theory is the only theory with verified evidence, and weight per NPOV. It is generally considered and discussed, and does not dismiss other ethnogenetic and cultural influence like other theories, Indo-European or Iranian, which do not have substantial amount of sources, reliability or confirmation for such claims. Not to mention how are ideologically motivated by the Bulgarian scholars during the anti-Turkish sentiment in Bulgaria, considered by unreliable "scholars" (PavelStaykov cited a scholar who is not educated in the historiography or linguistics, but medicine) and a minority. Such a fringe theory also has an article - Kingdom of Balhara.

The editor PavelStaykov denies and called modern scholarship considerations as junk and part of "some Russian propaganda". As far the points go, 1. The list of rulers follows the list of the Nominalia of the Bulgarian khans and their names and meaning are discussed in the section 2. There is no need for this, and just for record, previously in March and April he strongly opposed the reshaping of the statement as personally considered it was Attila itself and denied scholars general consideration 3. It is generally accepted they were most prominently of Turkic extraction (with some admixture of Hunnic, Iranian and other Indo-European origin and influence).--Crovata (talk) 12:30, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

  • I'm not going to get embroiled in a content dispute about which I know next to nothing. Even if I did, the only issue here for me is conduct. I've blocked User:PavelStaykov twice for edit-warring at Dulo Clan, the first time for 48 hours and the second for one week. When I blocked him the second time, I also warned User:Crovata about his conduct. There's been no reverts at that article since June 11. There has been one addition (I assume it's brand new but didn't check) at Bulgars by PavelStaykov and one revert by Crovata on June 19. The two editors have to use some sort of dispute resolution to resolve their content issues. As for their conduct, if I see either editor revert at either article, that editor risks being blocked, and a revert back after a block may also be met with a block. Both of them should stay away from both articles.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:39, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
    • @Bbb23: The problem with the whole issue is that there's no constructive content dispute for Wikipedia, yet the fringe theories and personal POV/OR which are forced to be included in the articles which have nothing to do with - the violation of NPOV. I advise all involved to read all three linked talk pages to understand the situation. I cannot agree with the last statement, why someone who defended the articles from unconstructive edits, and rewrote the articles according modern scholarship, must stay away? Since 14 May personally rewrote the Bulgars article and done major constructive edits, and as currently is in the process of GOCE review for GAN review, and there few cites additionally for inclusion, it seeks if not edit activity at least my attention.--Crovata (talk) 16:19, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
      • If it's as clear-cut as you state, then the dispute resolution should be straightforward. In the interim, my warning stands.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:26, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
        • @Bbb23: Sincerely, I simply do not know which of the claims, articles and talk pages above should take for dispute resolution. They all were answered here, talk pages time ago, and there probably even more he seeks for. I need your advice, and personal inclusion of PavelStaykov for dispute resolution as he began those disputes. He needs to decide what claims should be brought to the dispute resolution noticeboard. I don't want any kind of disapproval from his side if missed to mention some of his claims we dispute. @PavelStaykov: Respond.--Crovata (talk) 17:09, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

First, I want to answer Crovata's accusation that I have "aversion for the term "Turks"" - this is not true. I am not obliged to share such personal information here, but I will do it. I grew up in small town in southern Bulgaria ( Haskovo ) which is of mixed population - Bulgarians and Turks. One of my best friends during my childhood was a Turk. I live in Sofia now and one of my friends is also Turk, and I value his friendship more than that of many of my Bulgarian friends. So, I don't have "aversion for the term "Turks", nor I have aversion for Turkic people or their culture. What I want is simply these 2 articles to be written in the best possible way. Also before I start the discussion, I want to make some general remarks. It is a common misbelief that Bulgars are extinct, or that they merged with Slavic people 7-10 centuries AD thus forming contemporary Bulgarians. This is not true. Even now three type of faces can clearly be seen on the streets of Bulgaria, all of them of obvious Indo-European origin, but definitely distinct. It is especially striking if someone comes from abroad. The approximate ratio is 1:1:1. I can take photos and upload them to the Bulgar's article. My explanation is that the proposed by scholars merging of Bulgars, Slavs and Thracian's continues even today - after all Bulgaria was a rural country up to 1950-1960 and marriages happened inside small rural communities. One of my friends took genetic tests and he was told that he is of Thracian origin. Personally I don't need to do this to know that I am of Slavic origin - it's enough to look at myself in the mirror.

About the article Bulgars. 1. The very first sentence in its current version states that Bulgars were "tribes of Turkic extraction". This is not known for sure - may be they were, may be not. What is known for sure is that they were nomads. If they were Turks, of Turkic extraction, Iranian, or Indo-European tribes influenced by Turkic and Iranian people is still debated among scholars. Using euphemistic phrases as "Turkic extraction" is not a constructive edit, it is an obfuscation of the truth. It is much better to state that their origin is still unidentified and to enumerate different Bulgar tribes: Utigurs, Kutrigurs, Onogurs and so on. Crovata's opinion that these tribes were not Bulgars is ridiculous - just type these words in Google and read. Not to mention numerous books and textbooks where this is explained.

2. My second point is to state in the article intro that some of the Bulgar tribes participated in the union of the Huns - this is well documented. Most Roman, Greeks and Byzantines sources used the words Huns and Bulgars indiscriminately to describe the same people. Actually many scholars equate Bulgars and the (European) Huns. This can be done in the 3rd sentence of the article. This will help the reader to understand better the origin of the Bulgars. Stating that they envelop " other ethnic groups and cultural influences, such as Hunnic..." is not accurate. Huns were not ethnic group, they were conglomeration of different tribes, many of them Bulgars.

3. In the section "Etymology and origin" I want to include the identification made by Yury Zuev and Edwin G. Pulleyblank that Utigurs were Yuezhi tribe. Both scholars are renowned and the identification is undisputable. Also it is a base for research among many modern Bulgarian scholars as Pr. A. Stamatov, Dr. P. Tsvetkov, Dr. G. Voinikov and others.

4. Section "History" - the subtitle is Turkic migration. This is misleading and I would suggest to be removed. If Crovata is making such implications, probably he could explain exactly which Turkic tribes practiced artificial cranial deformation? "Further information: Turkic migration and Huns" - this is OK. The second sentence is controversial. What would mean "Interaction with the Hunnic tribes, causing the migration..." if the Bulgars were Huns themselves, to interact with whom? Also the cited source is not available online.

5. Section " History", cited source 40c, pages 127-128 - does not contain such information. Which line ?

6. Section ethnicity, the 3rd paragraph - it starts with "When the Turkic tribes began to enter into the Pontic–Caspian early as the 2nd century AD" is also misleading. It is generally considered that Turkic migration started much later and that the tribes in question are of unknown origin, they spoke language similar to proto - Turkic. May be here we could include the explanation given by Zuev that these tribes were actually Wusuns?

7. Section " Anthropology and Genetics" emphasizes too much on the origin of the Turks - paragraphs 2 and 3. What is the point here ? This article is not about the origin of the Turks.

8. Bulgars practiced Artificial Cranial Deformation and this is stated in the article, but I think the discussion here could be extended, it is well known that European Huns practiced artificial cranial deformation and they can be traced (using this) to North China.

9. I want to include research paper (by Voinikov) that modern Bulgarian language contains a lot of Tocharian words. It is published in Bulgarian language but with Google translate it can be read by everyone. (talk) 03:56, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, it may be taken into account that through IP wrote the same person as the one through PavelStaykov. The info in the intro about personal life (and previously where allegedly confirmed that Pavel Staykov is the personal name, and by education physicist) is useless and irrelevant for the whole discussion. The all 9 points were already discussed, and properly dismissed as are against the general scholarship(!), actually any relevant scholar consideration. This points are based on extreme and specially chosed sources and very minor considerations. They just confirm the lack of knowledge, will to understand, and disregard of general scholarship and evidence. The articles of Utigurs, Kutrigurs, Onogurs are currently being rewrote by me and his deny of their separate identity (which is something generally accepted!) is incredibly delusional and further discreditable. That's typical example of original research and personal POV violating NPOV. Even worse, he claims two different things, that the Utigurs point 1. were a Bulgar tribe, while in point 3. were a Yuezhi tribe. He doen't have basic knowledge about the Utigurs and Kutrigurs and how they existed in the vicinity of the Bulgars simultaneously, and participated in the battles and politics of Eastern Roman Empire. The Bulgars were not Huns, they were not equated at all, yet the name "Hun" became a general term or exonym for nomadic intruders from the East. This consideration, also in the point 4, is so wrong it's just ridiculous that it needs to be discussed. The scholar Dr. G. Voinikov revolutionary considerations (and the fringe Indo-European-Yuezhi theory) were not cited by any prominent scholar because he is an independent amateur scholar who is not at all educated in the field of linguistics or history - he finished medicine. No strange that no academic scholar cites his research. The personal POV and OR is based upon two reliable scholars (but whose considerations have nothing to do with Bulgars, but Utigurs, and claiming that the "identification is undisputable" is something generally not accepted!) and unreliable scholars. Replying to all the points for the XY time would be too long and waste of my time. @Dennis Brown:@Bbb23: Please give me advice how to properly write the dispute resolution, and for ever to end this unconstructive discussion. Should I cite every claim word by word? This 9 points deal with the article of the Bulgars, but not of the Dulo clan (where most of his activity was involved, and first comment dealt with).--Crovata (talk) 23:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
@Crovata: I didn't read the wall of text by the other party. I would forget about what the other user says. Their part in the dispute resolution is to set forth their own reasons for the content of the two articles. You, @Crovata, should decide what you disagree with (not set forth here) but what you disagree with in the two articles and explain why. @PavelStaykov: It is not a good idea to edit anywhere on Wikipedia without logging in to your account.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:29, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Bulgars were Huns, and Crovata knows this very well. Almost all serious historians accept this:

1. SANPING CHEN : "In fact contemporary European sources kept equating the Bulgars with the Huns" - page 8, line 1 [1]

2. Otto J. Maenchen-Helfen, The world of the Huns : Cassiodorus, writing his Gothic historv in the 520’s or early 530’s, and Ennodius (t 521) repeatedly calls the Bulgarians “Huns.” - page 164

Provided that what Ennodius said about the Bulgars, whom he equated with the Huns... page 199

Jordanes’ Bulgars and Huns in this chapter of the Getica are but two names of the same people. Schirren thought that Jordanes simply followed Cassiodorus, who in Varia VIII, 10, 4, likewise identified the Bulgars with the Huns. - page 432, line 5

3. Steven Runciman in his book " A history of the First Bulgarian Empire" [2] repeatedly identifies Bulgars as Huns. The first part of the book is named The children of the Huns:

the blood of the Scourge of God flows now in the valleys of the Balkans, diluted by time and the pastoral Slavs. page 4, last line

On Attila’s death, his empire crumbled. His people, who had probably been only a conglomeration of kindred tribes that he had welded together, divided again into these tribes; and each went its own way. One of these tribes was soon to be known as the Bulgars. page 5

the Bulgar branch of the Huns - page 7 line 4

The Bulgars, we know, were Huns ... - page 12, line 7

the Imperial writers use their name, the Huns’, and the Bulgars’ indiscriminately to describe the same race. - page 15, line 16

and so on. Bulgars and Huns were the same people - that's why many historian use the term Hunno-Bulgars. I don't know what game is playing Crovata, but it is not serving the main purpose of every Encyclopedia - to tell the readers the truth. His next "invention" about Utigurs and Kutrigurs - every serious book states that they were Bulgar tribes:

Hyun Jin Kim, The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe [3]

the Utigur wing of the Bulgar Huns - page 253, cit. 28

Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs were in all likelihood identical with the Bulgars - page 141, line 6

Steven Runciman :

it is impossible not to see in the Bulgars of Theophanes the bulk of the old Utigur people - page 15, line 13

Already in 1772 (Allgem. Nord. Geschichte, 358), the German historian August Schloetzer identified the Utigurs and the Kutrigurs with Bulgars, on the basis of the information provided by Greek-language late antiquity chronicles (Procopius, Agathias of Mirena, Menander, Theophylact Simocatta). Procopius of Ceasarea points out that Utigurs and Kutrigurs attacked the Goths during the fourth century.

The whole story is simple. Approximately around 2000 BC, a second wave of Indo-Europeans appear in North China. They were practicing artificial cranial deformation - the first graves with artificially deformed skulls in Tarim Basin (in North China) are from around 2000 BC. These people later were called by Chinese Yuezhi and Wusuns. With the rise of Xiongnu(Mongol-Turkic Huns) Yuezhi lost several wars against Xiongnu (between 210-160 BC - very well documented by Chinese) and move into modern day Kazahstan, around the Aral sea, in the interfluvial of Syr-Darya - Amu-Darya. Part of Wusuns stay and part of them move with Yuezhi, they were the same people after all, although they often warred between. That part of Wusuns who stayed gave rise to Ashina Turks, as Y. Zuev always pointed out - Ashina clan originated from Wusuns,[4] who were Tochars( = the general name for Indo-European people of North China). After 2 century BC graves with artificially deformed skulls disappear from Tarim Basin. They appear in Kazahstan. Burials of podboy type also appear there. With the disintegration of Xiongnu descendants, Turkic migration was initiated and Ases - Tochars (Ases- Yuezhi- Wusuns) were pushed from Kazahstan into Europe during 4 century AD and became known as European Huns. [5] Artificially deformed skulls disappear from Kazahstan and appear in Europe. European Huns can be traced back to North China by artificial circular type cranial deformation. Both Yuezhi and Bulgars did practice circular type cranial deformation.[6][7] [8] [9] [10] [11]

This theory is supported by several key facts, well established, and they must be presented in the article to the reader:

1. There is no evidence that European Huns ( and Bulgars ) were Xiongnu:

   Otto Maenchen-Helfen questioned the lack of anthropological and 
   ethnographic proximity between European Huns and Xiongnu.  
   Edward Arthur Thompson in 1948 in his monograph on the Huns denies the 
   continuity of European Huns from Xiongnu.

2. There is no convincing evidence that the language of European Huns(and Bulgars) was Turkic, only 33 personal names have survived (Pritsak), indeed, they seem to be Turkic, but to judge from this that the hole nation was Turkic is too naive.

3.There are academic sources stating the connections: Utrigurs-> Yuezhi, Vokil-> Yuezhi[12][13][14]

Edwin G. Pulleyblank and many modern Bulgarian scholars identify the Bulgar Utigurs as one of the tribes of the Yuezhi.[15][16] [17]

4. There are research papers showing that in modern Bulgarian language there are many Tocharian words. Yuezhi were Thocarian tribes and they spoke Tocharian language.[18]

5. The genetic tests show that paternal ancestry between the Bulgarians and the Central Asian Turkic-speaking populations either did not exist or was negligible.

6. There are archaeological excavations of necropolises in northern Bulgaria and strikingly similar necropolises in Kazakhstan dated from 1 century BC till 3 century AD when Yuezhi lived there. [19] [20] [21] Also on the right bank of the river Amu Darya, near the rock complexes Kara-Tyube and Chelpik was found the sign of Dulo- Upsilon "|Y|".[22]

Summing the information from these 7 points( including the data about artificial cranial deformation) - linguistic, archaeological, academic - show that:

   European Huns (and Bulgars) originate from the pre-Turkic Indo-European   
   population from northern China and particularly from the people known to
   the Chinese as Yuezhi. During their movement (from 2 BC till 4 AD) to
   Europe they were influenced by different groups of people, especially   
   Turkic and Iranian groups.   

Instead of using phrases as "Turkic extraction" and "Turkicized Sarmatians" it is much better to use the the real names of these people because they are known actually - Yuezhi and Wusuns. To what extent the language was Turkic is difficult to say - it was a mixture of Tocharian, Turkic and Iranian languages. There is a research paper explaining this: " Was the Tocharian language really Tocharian?"

About Dulo clan article. I would suggest:

1. About the article intro - to remove the phrase "Western Turks" - it is not true. Western Turks are much later phenomenon. We could restate it with " Early Turks".

2. About the article intro - to remove the statement " they were claiming Attilid descend". This is knot known - some historians think so, some( in fact most) think they were descendants of Attila.

3. To include that Dulo was the ruling dynasty of the Utigur Huns - this is true, and that Utigurs are identified by Zuev and Pulleyblank as one of the tribes of Yuezhi. The name Yuezhi means " Moon clan". This is the explanation why Turks from Turkey have Moon on their flag - they incorporated that part of Wusuns and Yuezhi who didn't move to Europe. That part became their ruling dynasty Ashina, which is Tocharian word for clear, pale blue - Yasna. That's why they call themselves "sky Turks". This is the historical truth. Bulgars and Ashina Turks have common ancestors - Tochars.

4. To remove completely the last sentence from the section origin:

" Burmov, Peter B. Golden, Gyula Németh and Panos Sophoulis concluded that claiming of Attilid descent shows the intermingling of European Huns elements with newly arrived Oğuric Turkic groups, as the number of evidence of linguistic, ethnographic and socio-political nature show that Bulgars belonged to the group of Turkic peoples."(4 books cited here)

nowhere in the cited 4 books there is such conclusion - that " Bulgars belonged to the group of Turkic peoples" - where, which line? Also, this sentence is illogical - claiming Attilid descend shows....they were Turks. Why? This is completely Crovata's own conclusion. What is the implication here - that Attila was Turk or what ?

5. To move the information for the historical rulers of the clan into articles introduction - it is well documented information and the reader will read what is sure for these rulers. This information belongs to the article's intro, not Research History.

6. To include back the information about the Martenica - there are archaeological evidences that such adorments were used in Tarim basin and central Asia and they were brought to the Balkan peninsula by the Huns(Bulgars). PavelStaykov (talk) 00:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC)


  2. ^
  3. ^
  4. ^
  5. ^, page 23
  6. ^
  7. ^
  8. ^ - p. 33
  9. ^ - p.23
  10. ^
  11. ^
  12. ^,p.42-p.46
  13. ^
  14. ^, p.62
  15. ^
  16. ^
  17. ^ Pulleyblank, 1966, p. 18