Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive897

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Admin needs to be overturned[edit]

OP blocked for continued disruption. Closing this thread as there must be something related to WOP on one of the noticeboards today. —SpacemanSpiff 08:25, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Admin User:Ricky81682 needs to be overturned immediately. He's totally out of control. This is Malik Shabazz round 2. He's issuing crazy topic bans and blocking new editors without stopping. Look at the editor who tried to help here. A block, deletion of their sandbox and nothing but attacks. Stop him immediately. A level 1 Desysop is needed right now before he goes overboard. - 166.170.47.240 (talk) 08:12, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

  • So first things first, assuming this is blocked user since this is your first post. So this is block evasion which just means a boomerang is coming. Secondly, Ricky explained himself quite well on his talk page as to the name block. Level 1 desysop is only for emergency cases. This doesn't qualify. Not even close. --Stabila711 (talk) 08:21, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disruptive editing at Knanaya[edit]

An anonymous editor, or group of related editors, have been disrupting the Knanaya article for over a week. Various IPs have hit the page recently, the ranges are often similar, though sometimes they claim to be different people who just agree about everything. The most recent one is 117.248.62.156 (talk · contribs · WHOIS); other recent IPs include 117.202.53.102 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 117.215.199.145 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), and 61.3.43.83 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Their edits are too full of problems to explain fully here; I laid out some of the bigger issues here. In general, it appears they don't like what some of the reliable sources have to say, and want to replace them with their own poorly cited, uncited, or falsely cited material. The article was semi-protected for a week, and they reverted to their version almost immediately after it expired. Dealing with this may require a range block, and/or further semi-protection.--Cúchullain t/c 14:53, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

You might want to request full protection then. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 00:01, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism by FreeatlastChitchat[edit]

Hello Mods/Admins,

FreeatlastChitchat, who is already under investigation for 2 cases here, and another 'meat puppet' case at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Faizan has been vandalizing the Ghulam Ahmed Pervez page. He deleted most of the content on the page, which was sourced from: ["Introduction - Biography of G.A.P, taken from "The Life in the Hereafter (Translation of Jahan e Farda by Ejaz Rasool)"" (PDF). Tolue-Islam-Trust.] This page is classed as starter page, most of the information on that wiki comes from a few sources. However, everything there is sourced, but the user FreeatlastChitchat claimed that he deleted everything because it was "unsourced", which is simply inaccurate. I have already informed said user that I will be reporting his actions here, and he responded by saying: "let the reporting begin", signaling a confrontational attitude. He has already tried reverting my revert, and I reverted it again, this is turning into an edit war.... I've also consulted Human3015 on his talk page, as I noticed he has warned this user before. I sought his advice regarding this matter as this is my first escalation report on a user regarding vandalism. Thank you Code16 (talk) 20:34, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

(non admin observation) I have yet to look at the edits, but one thing concerns me is WP:CANVASS. You have discussed this and pinged an editor here that has never edited the article or posted to its talk page. AlbinoFerret 20:45, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
After looking at the edit,[1] and his revert [2]. None of the claims he removed were referenced in the article. This appears to be a content dispute and your reverting of unsourced material to a biography of a living person raises concerns. You should have placed the citations in the material when you replaced it. AlbinoFerret 20:49, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
Sourcing is present but turns us to an equally (or more) serious policy. On the talk-page, User:Code16 mentions the source...it's the <ref> in the first sentence. The content is WP:COPYVIO from it. I responded on the talk-page noting that, and with a warning of a block coming if he doesn't follow our copyvio policy. DMacks (talk) 20:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
@ DMacks I've replied on the Talk page as well: I understand the concern of copyright and I will rework the copy and summarize the text without "copying verbatim". At present, recent edits have completely removed most of the page with stubs (even partial sentences) remaining, it will take me some time to fix. Once it is fixed, if the same user deletes sourced material again (keep in mind, his original claim that the material was unsourced was still not true) I will raise another flag here. Thank you. Code16 (talk) 23:53, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
Code16 While it may be sourced, I recommend placing a reference to all the claims that have been deleted, even if the same source is used multiple times. A source at the top or the bottom of the article will lead editors to question if the rest is sourced and removing unsourced material is a good faith edit most of the time. AlbinoFerret 00:16, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Another IDLI

When I first saw that there were no citations etc I thought that this was unreferenced material and I removed it. This was my bad I should have checked the source at the very start but it never occured to me that this may be the source of the material mention after it. . The second time he inserted the text I read the source but found out that the entire section I removed was almost 100% complete copy vio. There are almost no other sources except one(i.e the copyvio one) so I removed it again. I could have done a rewrite but history can be used for rewrites so as this was grounds for immediate deletion I deleted it. I'm not sure what I can do here. Perhaps I should have apologized to this guy, as 'Almost everything' he creates is mentioning Tolou-e-Islam and Pervez, but I did leave a msg on TP of article. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 02:57, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

@ AlbinoFerret Will do, and I'll also insert additional sources. Code16 (talk) 10:43, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Problems with User:Curly Turkey[edit]

Parties have come to an informal resolution between themselves. Cebr1979 has agreed to not post on Curly Turkey's talk page and Curly Turkey has accepted the offer. At this time, I do not see any further need for administrative action so I am going to close this discussion. (non-admin closure) --Stabila711 (talk) 07:11, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

For the past few days, Curly Turkey has been bombarding conversations here on wikipedia with unrelated, unfounded and false personal attacks towards myself (including bringing up how many times I was blocked -which he's wrong on and I proved it to him on his talk page, though he deleted it- and senseless name-calling):

I have done nothing to warrant being called a troll.

He has repeatedly called me out on what pages I choose to edit and even said I "have no interest" or "stake in" editing these (like as if he knows me or something or I need to clear my editing with him in advance):

When I moved one of my comments (and explained why), I was goaded in an edit summary as apparently "running away from him" and, when I questioned him about it on his talk page, all I got were more false comments about the number of times I've been blocked (which I finally just had to laugh off and leave be... which is when the swear words started). I've tried to avoid him, even going so far as to say I was removing myself from the consensus talk he was also apart of but, that got me nowhere because, instead, he just started a different conversation about me on someone else's talk page.

Then, today, he edited the Baxter Stockman page which, as I pointed out to him on his talk page after he began edit warring, I find odd given his recent comments about "driveby editing" on pages an editor "otherwise has no stake in" and "has not previously made edits to." He even went so far as to say my edit is something worth being "barfed at."

This, to me, shows a potential plan on his part to begin wikihounding (especially since the Baxter Stockman page is one of the pages he listed here in his list of pages I've edited that he doesn't like). I've had it and I don't know what to do.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:43, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

  • Cebr's been bombarding my talk page with comment after comment, even after I made it clear he was not welcome there. Cebr made contentious edits to Baxter Stockman while in the middle of an RfC about those very edits that has yet to close. After seeing that, I did some light copyediting to that article—nothing even remotely contentious, and I did not edit in the area under discussion at the RfC. Cebr has made it clear in the RfC that he will "just going to keep on doing what [he decide[s] to do"] regardless of consensus and is not willing to carry a conversation with me that does not involve ad hominems. Aside from the contentious edits, he's pushing as many buttons as he can. Cebr is a disruption and is distracting from people getting actual work done on the encyclopaedia. He has also failed to notify User:Argento_Surfer that he is talking about him at ANI. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:35, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Just to be clear, I've never been told to stay away from Curly Turkey's talk page nor am I talking about any other editor but him.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:43, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
While I agree Cebr's "Lol" messages are entirely unhelpful to any conversation, I believe the situation could have been handled better by both sides. Curley Turkey is a long-time veteran who I haven't worked with as of yet, so the user has obviously done something right to keep contributing. I understand any frustration the user had and I believe a warning to both sides is suitable for now. Of course, I'll need to look into this more because I feel some parts of the story are being left out. Now please let's get along and move on if that is what admins want.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:37, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Excellent point made below. I'm not the only one who's made "Lol" comments.Cebr1979 (talk) 08:39, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Everything involving Curly Turkey in this report (as I've listed here) has been unhelpful. After so long, one can simply "Lol" it off. My recommendation for the future would be "looking into this more" before offering a (non-)resolution.Cebr1979 (talk) 02:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Careful, Cebr1979—someone might actually examine the evidence, and then where would you be? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:57, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Uhmm... that's exactly what I want to have happen (and exactly what I just advised TheGracefulSlick to do before making recommendations).Cebr1979 (talk) 02:59, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
(Non-administrator comment) @Cebr1979: after reviewing the evidence you presented, and looking through your contributions, block log, and talk page history, I'm staunchly in agreement with Curly Turkey that you are a troll making disruptive edits. I would advise you to cut it out before you get blocked for a fourth time. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 03:22, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
I've never been blocked a third time and there is nothing in my edit history to denote me as an internet troll (and, especially, not any sort of "staunch" anything). If you're gonna look at contributions, block log, and talk page history, you should look at his too (though, I am going to point out that we are only talking about the issues from the last few days).Cebr1979 (talk) 03:28, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
@Cebr1979: I've never had the pleasure of working with Curly Turkey, but I've extensively seen his work in my main field of editing. He has been editing for years and has more edits than you and me combined. Even if I went drudging through his dirt, it would not change my opinion of your behavior. And the WP:IDHT is either more trollery or a WP:CIR issue because a) your block log clearly records three entries and b) you removed all three notifications from your talk page. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 03:42, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
My block log notes TWO blocks. One of them was edited mid-block. And, by admission, you're one-sided and should refrain from this report. Lastly, I'm allowed to remove block notifications from my talk page. I'm allowed to remove anything from my talk page. Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines says so. Deleting messages is actually considered an indicator of the messages having been read. Cebr1979 (talk) 03:44, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Not at all, but how about we turn this "report" around and focus more on your trollery and disruptive editing? ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 03:48, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Sure, how about your evidence of my being a troll? But I'm not going to accept you bringing up any old issues from the past that have already been dealt with.Cebr1979 (talk) 03:58, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Since Cebr asked me to look over the "evidence", my new resolution is to immediately boomerang this report as I've found the user is a total troll. Initially, I was sympathetic because I know how feuds can cause us to act carelessly, but I've also found I hold exceptions when dealing with trolls. Curly Turkey, I apologize for not taking a firm stance in your favor as I now see you are not at any fault.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:53, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
  • "...unfounded and false personal attacks towards myself (including bringing up how many times I was blocked" Somebody needs to review what a personal attack is defined as.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:58, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Somebody needs to read the whole sentence I wrote.Cebr1979 (talk) 06:19, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Boomerang for User:Cebr1979[edit]

I've seen trolling blocked instantly, and I'm surprised that this went on as long as it did. This just goes to show that this user is unwilling to change or take advice. Per WP:IDHT, WP:CIR, WP:TROLL and anything else this user's recent conduct falls under, I'm asking for them to be blocked for a period of no less than 48 hours for their recent behavior, or the next time their trollery crops up (probably soon). ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 04:39, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

  • Support - as proposer. EDIT: support indefinite block. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 04:44, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Huh? I did take his advice and haven't come back here until just now when you pinged me. Plus, you still haven't shown any trolling on my part so what right do you have to ask for a block at all?Cebr1979 (talk) 04:42, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
      • @Cebr1979: you literally handed me all the evidence I need on a silver platter. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 04:44, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
        • No, I really didn't. That Graceful guy said to drop it and I did. I'm hoping I won't be pinged again.Cebr1979 (talk) 04:47, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support indefinite block or one-way IBAN for Cebr1979. Curly Turkey is an intelligent, learned and diligent editor who gives freely of his time to fix problems on Wikipedia that most are too complacent to deal with. I know from experience how hard it can be to shake trolls like this, and how annoying it can b when they claim you are the troll, and just keep coming back. Block Cebr1979, and if the blocking/closing admin has time to through my edit history to figure out who I'm talking about (hint: their username is not dissimilar to Cebr1979)maybe have a look at that too. I can't open a new ANI thread for a while after the fustercluck Beyond My Ken, AlbinoFerret and my IBAN partner caused several sections up. But, most importantly for the present discussion, a block or a one-way IBAN. Hijiri 88 (やや) 05:31, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Considering the off-topic personal remark he has made about me and the evidence of wiki-stalking against me in this very thread I think a one-way IBAN for Curly Turkey is not enough. Cebr1979 is a troll who does trollish things to any user he finds remotely problematic, and is a drain on the community's patience. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:13, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Where are you getting wiki-stalking from (and off-topic personal remarks are exactly what this whole thing is about but... no one seems to be paying any attention to that)?Cebr1979 (talk) 13:25, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Sorry for not providing the diff. This quote was taken from a comment I made in an entirely unrelated discussion. You found it because as soon as I started posting in this thread about your behaviour, you clicked on my edit history and started looking around for "dirt" on me. This is wiki-stalking, and is almost guaranteed to make anyone to whom you do it want to see you blocked. The diff you continue to cite (hence the above RPA template) was me discussing another user who doesn't like me, showing up every time I post on ANI and requesting that I be site-banned; the user had not actually looked at any of the diffs under discussion in that thread, but was doing so solely out of personal resentment of me. I on the other hand have no prior personal resentment of you -- my only interaction with you has been in this thread, and your continued stalking/harassment/disruption/trolling in this very thread has made me very much want to see an end to this discussion. Good night. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Stop editing my comments! I never clicked your edit history, I couldn't care less! I read this page over and your comment was right here. I'll also point out, I didn't click anyone else's edit history either. I don't have any "dirt" on the guy with the Chinese letters for a name, Guy Macon, or the Graceful guy. I only read this page and saw your comment (which I've now said multiple times).Cebr1979 (talk) 14:03, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
You read every single post on ANI? Or did you Ctrl+F for my name? Or did you click on my edit history? The first option is completely ridiculous -- you'd need to be the fastest, best reader in history to read that much, that closely, while at the same time posting in this thread. The latter two options both imply wiki-stalking, of a user with whom up to that point you had had no argument. Hijiri 88 (やや) 23:42, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
I think you need to get over yourself. I most certainly do not have any interest in following you around or whatever.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:34, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
And STOP REINSERTING THE OFF-TOPIC PERSONAL REMARKS! Take a damn hint and give it a break. Hijiri 88 (やや) 23:42, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Stop editing my comments. I've told you that numerous times now.Cebr1979 (talk) 00:34, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Removal of irrelevant, off-topic personal attacks is pretty common. Why do you think the RPA template exists? You on the other hand altered Sturmgewehr88's post in order to refactor this whole discussion in your favour. Hijiri 88 (やや) 01:37, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
I also think Cebr1979's multiple, highly-disruptive attempts to shut down this discussion when it started turning against him are probably grounds for an immediate, temporary block to prevent further disruption while this discussion of his behaviour takes place -- is there an admin who does that kind of thing? I seem to recall Nyttend did on a thread I was involved in some years ago, but there were special circumstances there. Hijiri 88 (やや) 12:41, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Also (forgot to comment on this earlier): trolling someone to the point of driving them to use foul language, and then requesting they get blocked for using foul language is the lowest of the low. All users who attempt to game the system in such a manner should be immediately removed from the project. I've had my fair share of trouble with this in the past/present (again, admins, feel free to tell me I'm wrong about this...). Hijiri 88 (やや) 12:55, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Nyttend responded to you below. And just like he responded to you, I was responding to Curly Turkey... And I posted that in my initial report. At this point, you're going around in circles.Cebr1979 (talk) 13:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Oh goddamnit, just give it a break already! I admit you might have had an edit conflict with my post to the effect that I would drop the talk of your deliberately disrupting this conversation, but the moment you saw the edit conflict you should have read my comment and decided not to post yours, rather than just pushing it through anyway. You realize how hypocritical it is to say "I was asked to drop it, and I did", while at the same time continuing to force a talking point about another user who actually dropped an issue he may have been wrong about, don't you? Your continuing to troll this issue is, if anything, an indicator that I was wrong ... in my initial assumption that you were just making a good-faith mistake by trying to unilaterally close this discussion. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:20, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
I don't even get what you're trying to say?Cebr1979 (talk) 13:42, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - Again apologies to Curley for not being more precise the first time round. Such users who have been around for so long should not have to deal with troublesome trolls. A 48 hour block would be a little too light to me since we all know a troll doesn't just go away. Unless Cebr is willing to genuinely apologize and show actual improvement, I don't see why anyone should have to waste any more time with this. A block of at least a month would be more appropriate if an indefinite is not on the table.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 06:29, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
    • I just don't get you guys, you told me to drop it and I have.Cebr1979 (talk) 06:32, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
@TheGracefulSlick: The fact that within eight hours or so of me getting involved here, he was already trolling/stalking me as well makes me think an indef, not subject to appeal for at least six months, is the best way to go. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:23, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
I have never stalked you. OMG, I can't believe how insane this has gotten!Cebr1979 (talk) 13:27, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
You clicked on my edit history, rooted around for edits in unrelated topics that you could use as dirt against me, and slung it at me almost immediately: how is this not stalking? (Full disclosure: I added the above diff after Cebr1979 posted the above claim that he didn't know what I was talking about, so technically his initial post did not look as ridiculous as it does now. One of about a dozen edit conflicts I had with this user in the course of thirty minutes. I'm having LittleBenW flashbacks.) Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:59, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
I never clicked your edit history, I couldn't care less! I read this page over and your comment was right here. I'll also point out, I didn't click anyone else's edit history either. I don't have any "dirt" on the guy with the Chinese letters for a name, Guy Macon, or the Graceful guy. I only read this page and saw your comment (which I've now said multiple times).Cebr1979 (talk) 14:18, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Please stop repeating the exact same comments in multiple places. It makes it look like you are not carefully reading and responding to others' comments, which is highly disrespectful. Hijiri 88 (やや) 23:42, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
The time to change your behavior was when you got all of those warnings and blocks,[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29] not when it looks like ANI may apply an indefinite block. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:29, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Ya... I'm not going back two years. I was told to drop this and I did. The rest of you need to do the same.Cebr1979 (talk) 09:36, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Unless, of course, you want me to compile every warning Curly Turkey has ever gotten? That would be time consuming and, as far as I'm concerned, ridiculous. Like I said, you guys wanted this dropped... so drop it. I did.Cebr1979 (talk) 09:38, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
@Cebr1979: Woah, hold on there, buddy. You know how many ANI reports I have filed that I would have liked to "non-admin close" the moment I realized they weren't going my way? Non-admins are allowed close ANI discussions, but only when they are uninvolved. You lost your "uninvolved" status when you started this thread, and now it is turning against you you want to close it? What if the moment after you filed the initial complaint Curly Turkey had done that? Given that, at this point, a highly likely result of this thread is you being blocked, I don't think anyone would accept a non-admin closure anyway, since non-admins don't have the authority to issue blocks. Hijiri 88 (やや) 12:36, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
It had nothing to do with what was or wasn't "going my way." It had everything to do with me being told a long time ago (before you even got involved) that I should drop this... so I did. Ever since I dropped it, people keep coming back to it (including the one who told me to drop it). I thought the blue box was the way close it as dropped. If it's not, so be it. Thanks for letting me know. P.S. There has still been no evidence of me being a troll presented and, considering you state above that, "two users who were quite open about their !votes being based on their pre-existent opinions of me rather than any actual evidence relevant to THIS situation", I'm sorta thinking you should follow your own advice and quit with the block talk.Cebr1979 (talk) 12:50, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Don't bring up entirely unrelated material that indicates you are following me, even though (as you say) I was not even involved with you until a few hours ago. This is yet another reason why I think you should be blocked. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:09, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Do not edit my comments and your comment that I read is posted right here on this page so I read it. That's not stalking.Cebr1979 (talk) 13:38, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Why do you think the RPA template exists? If someone else removes a personal attack you made against them, the proper thing to do is apologize, not repeat it, deny you did it in the first place, and then revert the initial removal. I have templated both instances again; I will drop it for now, but don't do it again. Good night. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
It's not a personal attack, it's you hiding your hypocrisy. Quit editing my comments!Cebr1979 (talk) 14:06, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
No hypocrisy. I said that users who have not read the relevant discussion should not be allowed show up out of the blue and spitefully request that such-and-such a user be blocked based on unrelated prior disputes. You and I have had no unrelated prior disputes. I looked at the evidence here, and said you should be IBANned or blocked. Insisting that someone's arguments should not be counted because in your opinion they have engaged in what you dubiously call "hypocrisy" is a personal attack, because it is the very definition of Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. You then trolled through my edit history to dig up dirt on me and inserted it into this discussion in order to intimidate me over and over and over again. It most certainly is a personal attack to insert off-topic personal commentary on a particular user when you could be addressing their arguments. Hijiri 88 (やや) 23:42, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
[triple edit conflict] Hijiri88, I'm only seeing one attempt by Cebr to close this discussion; it took place over several minutes and several edits because Cebr wasn't sure how to do it from a technical perspective. Unless he repeats, there's no reason to block or otherwise sanction him for this incident. Nyttend (talk) 12:53, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, User:Nyttend.Cebr1979 (talk) 12:58, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
You're welcome, and don't do it again, especially as it looks more and more likely that you'll be blocked following discussion here. Nyttend (talk) 13:02, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Nyttend: (Sorry for the edit conflict.) If you read (pronounce like the colour) the above discussion the way I way did, it would look very much like Guy Macon telling him that he's not allowed to close a discussion just because it stopped going his way, and he attempted to close it after said. But given Cebr1979's above response, I guess I have to assume that it was just ignorance of the policy on his part. (Given the evidence presented above that this user has IDHT issues, it seems equally likely that it's a ruse, but I won't hold it against him as long he drops it now.)
Cebr1979: Understood. I will drop the issue of your attempting to close the thread (please don't call it "the blue box", by the way) as long as you stop it now.
Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:04, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Well... good night, all! I dropped this a long time ago, not sure why the rest of you won't (especially since I dropped it at some of your recommendations). Anywho, I'm off to bed and, even when I wake up, I'm not coming back to this (supposed to be) dropped topic.Cebr1979 (talk) 13:13, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Cebr, hunting down unrelated edits by the users who think your behaviour here warranted sanctions, and quoting them as evidence that said users should be the ones facing sanctions, is an indication that you have not dropped this: you are just trying to save yourself for the time being so you can move on to your next target. Give it a break already. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:26, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
At this point, I don't even understand what you're talking about???Cebr1979 (talk) 13:29, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Just give it a break. Good night. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

This is a mess... Wow. And still everyone involved has admitted they haven't even looked into what happened on THIS issue, they've only gone through *my* block log and other such things of the past. Only *mine* and only of the past. Like I said... Wow. Also, still no evidence of me being a troll which is what this whole block thing is over so... OMG. Wow.Cebr1979 (talk) 14:22, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Please do not assume that I failed to look at the edit histories of the other editors involved in this. I am nothing if not thorough, and I have examined "what happened" very thoroughly indeed. As usual when I look at editor's histories, I found a few things I could fault some of them on, but your history stood out as being extremely disruptive and stands out for your annoying habit of deleting legitimate warnings with comments like "lol".[30][31][32][33][34] Again, you need to change your behavior in response to the multiple warning you have received, not laugh them off
Your behavior on Wikipedia is not acceptable. Your only realistic chance to avoid an indefinite block at this point is to convince us that you understand what you did wrong and convince ANI that you will not repeat the behavior in the future. Blaming everyone else as if we don't know how to recognize a disruptive editor when we see one is just an example of the law of holes at work. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "other editors," there is only one other editor involved. In any case, I've already done what you said by dropping it way back the first time I was told to. Cebr1979 (talk) 19:20, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

All of those examples you just brought up are old and have been dealt with. I got my block and served my time. I'm not discussing that old stuff with you just because you weren't around at that time. That's all over with.Cebr1979 (talk) 19:25, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Cebr1979 when I told you to drop the report, I meant to take the appropriate steps to do so. Which means apologize, say what you did wrong, and how you need to improve. You continue to do the complete opposite. I assumed since you have been involved in quite a few of your own blocks, you would know by now how to try to amend some of the damage. I guess I was wrong.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 23:02, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Cebr1979 has reinserted the same off-topic personal commentary on me at least five times (search the code for this section for "RPA" or "8964". Also, in case no one has noticed, these posts are somewhat disturbing. Who is Diannaa, and what is their relation to this dispute? Going through the whole ANI page looking for a random admin's username (when we have a list for that kind of thing) and then asking them on their talk page for advice on getting a discussion closed once it has started turning against you seems super-weird, right? Or is it just me who thinks that? Additionally, his stating several hours after he had been told he was not allowed to close it himself that "oh, I wasn't allowed..." seems somewhat dubious. Hijiri 88 (やや) 23:42, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Re: "I don't know what you mean by 'other editors,' there is only one other editor involved", Before commenting on this case, I looked into the behavior of Curly Turkey, Hijiri88, Sturmgewehr88, TheGracefulSlick and Nyttend -- the other editors who have commented in this ANI thread. Of course some of those names I know well and it just took a moment to convince myself that, as expected, they are third parties not involved in your content dispute, but I had to check just to make sure. Everyone deserves a fair hearing on ANI, and everyone is subject to a boomerang if it turns out that they were involved and a part of the problem.

Clearly you do not understand what you did wrong and thus we have no reason to believe that you will not repeat the behavior in the future. Nor have I seen a shred of evidence that your previous warnings and blocks helped you to understand what you did wrong or avoid further misbehavior. Just as clearly, my words are not reaching you, so this will be my last comment on this matter.

Support indefinite block of Cebr1979, with the understanding that Cebr1979 will be able to get the block lifted if he can convince the uninvolved admin who reviews his appeal that he understands what he did wrong and convinces that admin that he is committed to avoiding such behavior in the future. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:02, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Again: you don't have any merit for that. Everything you have brought up is old and already been dealt with (you went back two years). That's all long since over with. I'm sure if if I went back two years, I could find lots of stuff on other people (maybe even you) but, I'm not about to do that. And you shouldn't have either.Cebr1979 (talk) 02:18, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose indef block of either party. That's a totally unreasonable reaction to a pair of editors being WP:JERKs to each other. And it is clearly mutual, not a one-way problem with Cebr1979. Curly Turkey has a habit of inflammatory straw man posts (I was considering raising an ANI thread about this behavior pattern myself, as its use at WT:MOS has been both uncivil and disruptive, despite numerous requests to stop distorting other's views and putting words in their mouths). Support a mutual interaction ban of some period, e.g. 3 months, and let the tigers show their stripes. Both of these editors exhibit anti-collaborative problems. One does not get a free pass and the other a permanent ban simply because one's been around longer; see WP:VESTED, and two years is both plenty of time to demonstrate that one is not a troll as well as too far back to go digging for dirt to make a case against someone here, and you all know better. An indef block as a WP:BOOMERANG result is absurd; the point of BOOMERANG is to discourage wiki-litigious parties from wasting all our time with vexatious, unclean-hands complaints, not to execute them on the spot.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  03:40, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
SMcCandlish, it may be two users being jerks to each other, but we need to ask (1) who started it, (2) who was trying throughout to stop it, (3) who shows no signs of improving, and (4) who has been hounding other, uninvolved members of the community just for commenting here. Someone (I'm pretty sure it was you) made a lot below of going back two years and counting the block warnings, but we need to consider the sheer mass of those warnings. It comes out to more than one a month by my count. That's more even than me and I edit articles on Japanese history, poetry and religion! ;-) Hijiri 88 (やや) 08:19, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
I didn't start it, I was trying to stop it, I've shown signs of improving, and you have not been hounded. You need to stop with that. Me reading one comment you made on this page is not hounding you. You haven't been victimised in any way shape or form.Cebr1979 (talk) 08:48, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)@Hijiri88: Hmm. 1) Doesn't seem relevant and usually is not a consideration here, especially if the party B has unclean hands and keeps escalating right along with party A. 2) Clearly, neither of them; Cebr's diffs show that CT was just as dismissive and hostile, and in fact behaved that way in response to Cebr asking him to stop calling him names (instead he just called him a troll again, but last I looked a request to cease name-calling is not trolling). 3) Clearly, both. Neither of these editors appear to take disagreement much less criticism well, and keep trying to get the last word, and to deny any wrongdoing. 4) That, I have not been looking into. Cebr is not hounding me, though CT is blatantly, shamelessly lying, four times back-to-back, about my posts here, so you can guess what my initial opinion is. And I'm not a fan of Cebr; I really hate that nuke-everything-off-my-talk-page stuff he does (it interferes with easy tracking user behavior and interaction issues enough, I'm wondering if user page policy should't be changed!), and I don't like his flippant attitude. But of the two editors in question, Cebr's has been the less disruptive in the WT:MOS thread in question. He's been staying on-topic more, and more involved in trying to find consensus, while CT has done very little by try to make everyone who disagrees with him look stupid by making up bullshit about what they said. I don't contribs-stalk either of them, so I can't speak as to their other edits. I've had both negative and positive interactions with both before, and I agree and disagree with both of them on various things. Both have been here several years, and both of them know better that to engage in a multi-page, mutual baiting war.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  09:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
  • SMcCandlish was considering ANI (on Cebr's talk page) at a time when he totally misunderstood the discussion—for which he shortly after admitted and apologized for but now seems to retracting it so he can make the same accusations (note the lack of diffs to prove it). Not even Cebr accused me of such a thing, and nobody else backed SMcCandlish up on it. Please, someone wade through that discussion and demosntrate all the alleged "strawmen" I put up. Curly Turkey can't be allowed to get away with this. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:55, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
That's actually a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I what I actually retracted and apologized (conditionally) for [35] was possibly misconstruing one of your own arguments, and I suggested you do likewise, but you never did. I even documented why the argument was so easily misconstruable.[36] It certainly is not the case that I "totally misunderstood the discussion". You've simply lied about this, as you did about many other statements by others on that page. If you'd really like a diff farm of all your blatant mis-castings of other's statements in that MOS discussion, used by you to try to denigrate them and to "WP:WIN" the argument with FUD, I'll be happy to provide such a list, and you will not look good in it. Be careful what you wish for. (Compiling the list won't take long; just search the thread or the recent page history there for me objecting and mentioning "straw man" and anyone can find a lot of them in seconds.)  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  05:46, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Since Curly Turkey is actually demanding proof of his straw-manning, I'm in the process of gathering the diffs, but have to go pick up someone at the airport who has arrived almost an hour early, so I'll get to it when I return. Have found 4 instances already and there are at least 3 others to diff.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  06:20, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Update: Posted in separate subthread below, with a suggesting that CT be warned.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  09:05, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

  • Oppose SMcCandlish makes a lot of sense. Nothing here rises to the level for indef bans or blocks. An IBAN for a limited time sounds about right. AlbinoFerret 04:01, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
This from AlbinoFerret, the genius of perspective and proportion who believes I should be indefinitely SBANned for having the audacity to post a coupla times on Talk:Soka Gakkai and fix some refs on Kokuchukai and Nichiren. And the thorougjly-demonstrated, blatant, ceaseless CIR/IDHT/TROLL actions of Cebr1979 over two years don't merit any kind of block or ban? Cebr1979, this is what rational people call "hypocrisy". Hijiri 88 (やや) 08:19, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I do have to point out that I made it clear I wanted Cebr to stay off my talk page and deleted four of his contentious trolling comments in a row: [37][38]"lol""I was just wondering..."—yet he continued commenting on my talk page. This is not the behaviour of someone who acts in good faith—this harassment is trolling, or commenting to invoke a negative response rather than to communicate or contribute to developing a consensus. As the other commenters who posted above have remarked (after examining the evidence, I have to emphasize), Cebr has not demonstrated a willinglness to alter his disruptive behaviour, nor has my behaviour been shown to be disruptive (despite diff-less accusations from SMcCandlish, an involved party who has launched similar contentious accusations against other contributors he disagrees with in the RfC). Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:16, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Curly Turkey: I have pointed out that I asked you three times to stop bringing up unrelated blocks in a consensus talk and you didn't. Cebr1979 (talk) 08:42, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Huh? I brought it up once, long before you made your comments on my talk page. That you asked me three times says nothing more than that you couldn't drop the stick long after I already had. Your comments were harassment. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:09, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Um, no, I haven't "accused" anyone else of engaging in straw man disruption at all in that discussion, only you, because it's only you doing it, again and again and again. But since you're asking twice now for diffs everyone can see of you doing it, I'll start building that list. Seems like a rather self-destructive demand on your part (not unlike much of Cebr1979's behavior in this ANI thread, I might add; cf. my comment "it is clearly mutual, not a one-way problem", above), but not my problem, I guess.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  05:51, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
I haven't "accused" anyone else of engaging in straw man: where did I say you did? I'm of course referring to your accusations of bad faith on Darkfrog24's part—that's what "similar" means. Slow down and read what people wrote, SMcCandlish—then you won't make ridiculous statements like this, which you've already admitted was 180° the opposite of the truth. You've also yet to demonstrate a single strawman—because there are none. So let's see those diffs and how you spin 'em. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:06, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Yet another lie by you; I specifically stated it was not an accusation of bad faith, but observation of an judgement error.[39] All you're doing is digging your own hole, after others have been trying to dig one for Cebr1979. Would you like a bigger shovel?  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  06:20, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
It was still 100% unfounded, irrelevant to topic at hand and pretty darn rude. SmC, you have a problem understanding what people actually mean when they post things. You need to ask more questions and make more suggestions instead of jumping to conclusions. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:29, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Well, let's just hope you're not going to frame my comments as accusing people of prohibiting animate pronouns in in-universe writing. You've already tried that, and have already admitted you were wrong about that. In other words: as you've already acknowledged that the entire conversation from first word to last was framed in the context of out-of-universe writing, recontextualizing my comments: Here you are accusing me of lying, (I fully expect this to be on your "evidence" list) and then admitting less than an hour later the argument actually was strictly about out-of-universe writing all along. You're not going to pull this again, are you? That would be the height of dishonesty. Any attempt to paint me as having accused anyone ever of trying to prohibit animate pronouns in in-universe prose will be a flat-out lie. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:34, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Another obvious member of the list is the falsity that anyone has accused anyone of trying to force "it" onto a sentence like "Superman is famous for its strength and its ability to fly." This is a logical conclusion from the prohibition on personal pronouns in out-of-universe writing meant to demonstrate where even the supporters of the prohibition would admit that inanimate pronouns would be unacceptable. Nobody claimed that the prohibitioners proposed that such a sentence should be enforced (good luck finding a diff to prove anyone asserted any such thing—nor is it originally my argument, as you are well aware). That you disagree with the premise of the argument does not make it a straw man—the argument itself is sound, and you recognize it by suggesting to recast to avoid both the animate pronouns (which you oppose) and the inanimate (obviously unacceptable). Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:30, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
And you've already suggested rebooting the RfC to be clearer about it, which I've agreed with as a good plan. We don't have any dispute on these points. Why would I raise any question at all about anything to do with pronouns and your position on them? ANI is for behavioral matters, not content matters. Speaking of which, you're also misrepresenting diffs again; that's three times in the same ANI thread. In the first one I was not "accusing [you] of lying"; I said clearly "Curly Turkey's 'The question is whether MoS should prohibit the use of personal pronouns...' is a misstatement of the debate, another in a long string of straw man arguments CT has been clouding this discussion with." Not the same thing. This is important since its you engaging in a straw man in order to attempt to evade evidence of engaging in an earlier straw man. All you're doing is proving my point with diffs I hadn't even thought to include. In the second diff, you putting words in someone else mouth again [40]; the two diffs are not connected in any way, and what I really said in that one was "For once I agree with CT." (and nothing further), in response to your observation that the discussion was not really about in-universe context after all, in turn in response to someone who thought it was. (We've come to final agreement that the thread has been confused on this point and should be rebooted, remember?). So, by all means, keep doing my work for me. At this point, we should probably open a separate subthread just about this problem of your seemingly habitual misstatements of what others have posted. I can't believe you're actually trying to use diffs to prove you're not doing it when all they do is prove you're doing it.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  06:56, 27 August 2015 (UTC) Updated: 07:21, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
"We" agreed to reboot the discussion because you had derailed it so badly with accusations such as "To him this debate is only about "banning" the use of "we" and the like in fiction"—despite my having stated explicitly and repeatedly that the discussion was strictly about the opposite and the discussion was framed as such from first word to last (the inciting edit was an out-of-universe one, as you have acknowledged). Because you had done so much damage to the discussion it had become nigh unreadable, and you've admitted how badly you've misrepresented the basis of the discussion. Notice I'm stopping just short of calling you a liar, despite your comments being demonstrably the opposite of the truth and the huge disruption they've caused. Perhaps you should step back and consider whether the diffs you are assembling are actually strawmen rather than merely statements you disagree with. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:44, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
It certainly is not the case that I "totally misunderstood the discussion". You've simply lied about this: wow, you went there. Fact: you misunderstood the discussion as badly as anyone possibly could. Fact: you have admitted now that the discussion was strictly about out-of-universe writing and have agreed to reboot it to make that more explicitnot, I must emphasize, to reframe the discussion. The discussion was always about out-of-universe writing, you did in fact "totally misunderstood" it, and are now resorting to lying about it. Honestly, in the context of that discussion you've been a far worse disruption that Cebr ever was. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:52, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
You need to stop telling other people what they "admitted"; you've misused that word about a dozen times in this discussion to mischaracterize others' statements. I "admitted" no such thing, and it was not true. A large portion of the discussion in question has been mired since day one in confusion as to the scope and nature of what (if anything) MOS should address regarding personal pronouns for fictional characters, both in-universe and out-of-universe. I certainly had nothing to do with that commingling of topics, as I arrived at the discussion quite late (at least three counter proposals were already floated by the time I even commented the first time, and these confusions were all already manifest, as was the personal dispute you and Cebr1979 had imported to WP:MOS from WT:COMICS). What I did do (besides provide a fourth and later sixth variant proposal) was concede that you later in the discussion appeared to be more clearly distinguishing the in- and out-of-universe use cases (though failing to recognize that the discussion in question had moved on well past that question and into a discussion of MOS advising to rewrite to avoid confusing use of pronouns with regard to fictional characters, generally speaking). I also clearly documented, in a series of diffs posted in the very thread, why your position on the matter appeared to be confused and was confusing. I've already diffed that above, too. So you're just engaging in circular rehash now, as well as for the fourth time in the same ANI thread engaging in a straw man about what I posted. I think I'll just rest my case here and let everyone else at ANI deal with your WP:GAMING. I have way better things to do that entertain your circular proof by verbosity. Which is remarkably, remarkably similar to very the same "trolling" you accuse Cebr1979 of.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  08:44, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
I "admitted" no such thing, and it was not true.: So go on the record, SMcCandlish—do you or do you not admit you were wrong? Because you were wrong. (I'm not expecting a straight answer.) Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
A large portion of the discussion in question has been mired since day one in confusion as to the scope and nature of what: no, the commenters (including Cebr) before your arrival almost unanimously understood we were talking about out-of-universe writing. You mired it, particularly with statements claiming the exact opposite. The problem is you.
I'm sure I'm not the only one here to facepalm at you of all people brigning up proof by verbosity. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Oppose indef block - I'm going to focus on the subject of this ANI thread, which is Cebr1979's history and the information that is relevant to such. It's obvious that his behavior has been disruptive, consistent, and that it has continued despite many attempts by others to get him to understand and stop. However, I think we're jumping the gun by proposing an indefinite block. SMcCandlish made some great points that I agree with, and I think that we should make a more practical decision rather than this one. Instead, (if it were up to me to suggest something) Cebr1979's should be put on a Final Warning basis for some time; if this behavior continues or happens again during this time, a 14-day (or longer) block can be imposed by an uninvolved admin. Subsequent incidents will result in longer blocks. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 05:46, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Seems reasonable enough.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  06:02, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm fine with that.Cebr1979 (talk) 06:22, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm suprised so many reasonable users are against a block for Cebr. Even if you are one who opposes an indef block, it should not just drop any sort of punishment. A block of at least two weeks should be in place to make a point trolling is not accepted and give Cebr an opportunity to learn from this. Otherwise, it encourages Cebr to push the limits further until yet another ANI will be presented here shortly.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 06:24, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
That's still you going off Curly Turkey having done no wrong, though (and also using a crystal ball method of deciding how the future will play out). I've said I'm fine with Oshwah & SMcCandlish's proposals. Coming back for more is pretty undue.Cebr1979 (talk) 06:44, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Blocks are not punitive WP:BLOCKNOTPUNITIVE, the "it should not just drop any sort of punishment" sure sounds like a punishment is proposed. . AlbinoFerret 06:31, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Correct, and if we were to block Cebr1979 for "trolling" just because he responds aggressively and flippantly at ANI, and retorts unhelpfully to criticism with comments like "LOL", Curly Turkey would be in the same basket for comments like this [41]. How is "*snigger*" any different at all from "LOL" other than spelling? It means precisely the same thing and is intended in precisely the same dismissive "I laugh in your face" way. I repeat: "a pair of editors being WP:JERKs to each other. And it is clearly mutual, not a one-way problem with Cebr1979". It's best to simply separate them for a while so they go do something else other than bait each other. This comment by CT is particularly uncalled for and misleading: "Can someone do something about Cebr's trolling? He's contributed nothing to the discussion" [42]. Cebr1979's participation in the thread has in fact been constructive; it's just that its arguing for an option that CT doesn't like. This one's even worse: [43]; Cebr1979 objected to being labelled a troll in this discussion, and asked CT to stop name-calling, but CT's sole response was "You need to stop trolling." Blatantly uncivil. I don't think either of them should be blocked, because this is a conversation from several days ago; nothing preventative would happen by a block, only punitive. But they both need to stop antagonizing each other and disrupting WT:MOS in the process, which I why I suggested a mutual, time-limited interaction ban. PS: I'm not particular defender of Cebr1979, and have posted critical messages on his talk page only to have them deleted dismissively. Last I looked, though, annoying people a little wasn't a blocking offense.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  07:09, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
AlbinoFerret is absolutely correct - blocks are not punitive, but instated to prevent further disruption to Wikipedia. This policy is what I took into account when proposing that we instead implement a final warning basis for Cebr1979. If, after this discussion (and for x number of days), Cebr1979 continues this behavior again, he will be blocked from editing Wikipedia (starting with a block to be no shorter than two weeks, then grow in length for any subsequent conduct observed). ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 11:05, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
If Cebr1979 had written "lol" in a response to Curly Turkey, I would have ignored it as I ignored Curly Turkey's use of "snigger". That's just low level incivility and both of them are engaging in it. What Cebr1979 actually did was to repeatedly respond to warnings on his talk page by many different people by deleting the warning, often with "lol" in the edit summary. A rude editor laughing off a comment by another rude editor is one thing. Laughing off repeated legitimate warnings -- warnings where Cebr1979 was clearly in violation of Wikipedia policy -- is another thing altogether. BTW, my supporting an indef block for Cebr1979 says nothing about whether I do or do not support sanctions against Curly Turkey. I have not expressed a view on that one way or the other. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:43, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Can I just say that, as far as the 'Lol' edit summaries when deleting things off my talk page goes, that's something I've learned from other editors in my time here so didn't think there was anything wrong with it (though, in hindsight, I will admit, I didn't exactly feel the greatest when it happened to me so... shouldn't have continued it when dealing with others). If anyone wants evidence of that, they can check mine and Arre9's interactions (I don't know how to tag her from my phone so, will leave a message on her talk page as I know she needs to be notified that I'm talking about her here... even though I'm sure she'll support the "Support" side of things). Anyways, I am now heading out of town for the weekend and won't be back until Monday (and I don't know what time). If a decision is reached by then, I'll just have to live with it. If not, I'll follow up when I'm back.Cebr1979 (talk) 01:48, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

  • Support Boomerang for User:Cebr1979 in full.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:59, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I think I can clear up why people oppose an indefinite block: Cebr1979's user history goes back only to 2013. From this conversation alone, it's clear that Cebr1979 thought that Slick's "drop it" meant "stop making comments in this thread" (and initially did so) and that he or she was allowed to close the request that Curly Turkey be investigated. The idea that the person who posed a request can withdraw it isn't how things work here, but it isn't unreasonable either. A lot of us forget something: Wikipedia's rules and etiquette are freaking BYZANTINE. Wikipedia has a learning curve the size of Mt. Ranier, and YES it can take more than two years to figure out how it all goes. How many places on the Internet is "lol" considered inappropriate? In how many places on the Internet is checking someone else's public user history a big deal (if that's even what Cebr1979 did)? Not that many. The idea that a relatively new user wouldn't yet have the half-intuitive sense of "What is consensus?" isn't all that out there This doesn't mean that Cebr1979 should get a pass, however. Guy Macon was good enough to look up many cases in which Cebr1979 was warned in polite terms by many different editors unrelated to each other. I personally think that any block should be non-permanent. This might be a good candidate for mentoring, possibly as a condition of unblocking. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:29, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Oppose indefinite block, in the short term. I agree with Darkfrog above that there seems to me to be sufficient reason to think that mentoring might be effective, and I would like to give that a chance first. John Carter (talk) 17:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Comment: While User:Cebr1979's most recent behavior hasn't been ideal, I do feel compelled to point out that his behavior has improved since the last time I interacted with him. Argento Surfer (talk) 19:31, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Curly Turkey's uncivil and disruptive use of repeated straw man tactics[edit]

Following on some of the above discussion, here are some (not all – I don't have all night for this) diffs from just one discussion, relating to Curly Turkey engaging in the fallacious straw man tactic of miscasting others' statements. This does not include the four (in three posts) mischaracterization and misstatement ploys CT has engaged in so far on this ANI thread above, nor have I done any digging in other discussions to see how far this behavior pattern goes, but at least 8 times in the same thread is way, way too many, especially after multiple editors have objected to his putting of words in their mouths. He also dared me to take this matter to ANI, thinking he had a counter claim. But he's already presented his "smoking gun" above; I misunderstood where he was coming from, and explained why, and retracted it with an apology. Not hard to do, but so far CT simply will not do it himself. These are in order of CT's original posts:

  1. Straw man at 02:08, 21 August 2015: [44]; my objection to it (the third; my responses were not in chronological order of Curly Turkey's own posts, but as I encountered them): [45]
    Objecting to an example doesn't make it a straw man. You may or may not have invalidated the example—there is no more to it than that. (I have more to say about the rebuttal, which missed the point entirely, but that's not for ANI.) Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:30, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
    Content discussions don't belong on ANI, so this should not be about who is or isn't wrong on the content. However, SMC's assertion that CT is guilty of repeated straw-man arguments hinges on ... well, whether or not CT is actually guilty of repeated straw-man arguments. I have looked at this, and, depending on who he was addressing by "you", it either (a) most certainly was not a straw-man -- Cebr1979 said exactly what CT accused him of saying, and Cebr1979 was wrong on the substance, and deserved to be called out on it, or (b) was probably not a straw-man -- Darkfrog24 said he agreed with Cebr1979, and in the indented example worded it so as to imply he agreed with the point in question; CT called Darkfrog24 out for this, and did not use a straw-man argument. Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:39, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
    I'd describe it as more "Curly asking me what I meant when I said something," but yes, not straw man. For the record, I didn't actually agree with Cebri. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:04, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
  2. Straw man at 04:23, 21 August 2015 :[46]; my objection to it: [47]. This was an especially shameless example, taking a fragment from a carefully qualified statement and trying to spin into a reductio ad adsurdum bearing no relation to what I actually wrote, and also put words in my mouth like accusations of "incompetence" that I never actually made; cf. Cebr1979's complaint about the same put-words-in-my-mouth tactic Curly Turkey tried to use against him as well, in diff #8, below (an objection that predates mine).
    I defy anyone but SMcCandlish or Cebr to demonstrate how this is a strawman. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:30, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
    I'm sorry, but this also isn't a straw-man. You (SMC) said something that was patently inaccurate, and CT called you out for it. Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:39, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
  3. Straw man at 06:49, 21 August 2015: [48]; my objection to it: [49]
    This is even worse than the last one. How does this fall anywhere near anything resembling a straw man? Did you paste the wrong diff? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:30, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
    CT is wrong in saying that it looks less like a straw-man than the previous one. It looks slightly more like a straw-man (CT might have been accusing Trovatore of saying it sounded like slavery). But it is obviously tongue-in-cheek, and to post on-wiki that you think it is a straw-man is actually an AGF-violation, since the only way it could be read as a bad-faith straw-man rather than a joke would be to actively assume bad faith. Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:39, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
    It was neither tongue-in-cheeck nor a strawman. It was an honest question why use of "she" would make the sentence sound like slavery where the use of the name (which the pronoun replaces) doesn't. A "straw man" involves "refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent"—no arguement was refuted, let alone one not advanced by the opponent. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
  4. Straw man at: 09:46, 21 August 2015: [50]; my objection to it: [51]
    Again, you're framing this as if the proposal ever included in-universe writing, which we've established it never did. The "never" refers exclusively to out-of-universe writing, as you are well aware. This is not a strawman but you recotextualizing my words to make them appear so. In the established context my words are true—unless you are now saying you accept "who" in out-of-universe writing. If you go on record saying you do, I will retract the comment, but a strawman it is not—it is what I have been led to believe is your position. Otherwise this and every other error you've made becomes a strawman. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:30, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
    I'm sorry, SMC, but do I need to read through the entire discussion on MOS to establish whether CT was in fact accurate in his description of your arguments? Your objection didn't address it at all, and in fact is a fairly off-topic discussion of user conduct for an MOS talk page. Could you explain which part of the above post by CT you believe was a straw-man argument? Was it a straw-man to say that the proposal was to lift a restriction rather than place it, or was the straw-man his saying that you and Cebr1979 claim "who" is never used? Because all I see on examining the above is CT making what looks like a fairly accurate break-down of who says what in the debate, and you making an off-topic personal accusation against CT. Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:39, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
  5. Straw man at 14:06, 21 August 2015: [52]; my objection to it and the disruptiveness of it: [53]
    A statement of fact, as far as I know. I have seen no editor either proposing or doing the opposite. Meanwhile, your "Except everyone else understands that it happens more than one way" lacks any sort of evidence. If there is evidence, then I was wrong (and I'll retract the statement), but being wrong is not the same as a strawman. Do you really have so poor a grasp of the concept of a strawman? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:38, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
    This is not a straw-man. It is debatably an accusation, but whether it is false or true on that point determines whether it was inappropriate for CT to make it. I'm sorry, SMC, but I'm inclined to agree with CT here: either you do not know what a straw-man is (this is the AGF option), or you are making bad-faith accusations of straw-man arguments in order to set CT up for a fall he doesn't deserve. Your response to CT was an off-topic personal accusation that didn't address the issue (you should have presented him with an example of someone going around and systematically changing "that" to "who" if you wanted to say he was wrong). Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:39, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
  6. Straw man at 22:18, 21 August 2015: [54]; my objection to it: [55]
    We've already established my statement was the plain truth and you got things horribly, horribly wrong. This is as black-and-white as it gets. Where does the "strawman" come into this? The closest thing is where you put words into my mouth with your "To him this debate is only about "banning" the use of "we" and the like in fiction"—the debate started with this very out-of-universe edit and followed with out-of-universe examples. Your statement was a jaw-dropper. Do you stand by it? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:38, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
    Sorry SMC. You would be right that CT was using a straw-man argument, if you were right on what the RFC question was. But CT knows what the RFC question was -- he wrote it, apparently -- and his description was accurate; yours was not. If you think CT's original RFC question was an inaccurate straw-man, then ... that is an issue I don't want to touch with a ten-foot pole. Sorry, I've had enough of that shit over the past year. Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:39, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
  7. Straw man at 22:22, 21 August 2015: [56]; my objection to it: [57]
    The "strawman" here is you ascribing motivations to the writer. I'm not the only one in the discussion who pointed that out to you. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:46, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
    @CT: Or was the straw-man your saying "The rest of your comment is a mess of ad hominems and bald assertions that your own evidence disproves."? I'm not going to go through it further to figure out whether you were right to say that, because my head hurts at this point (it's not your fault), but if you were wrong ... it still wouldn't be a straw-man. A false accusation at worst. Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:39, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
  8. Straw man at 02:26, 21 August 2015: [58]; Cebr1979's objection to it: [59]; my objection to it: [60]
    Yep, you brought it up, just as I predicted above. Scroll up to see my rebuttal. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:46, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
    Okay, I'm not going to go back up and see the rebuttal. I don't frankly care at this point whether this was or was not a straw-man argument. Even if it was, it is one flawed argument. It doesn't justify all the other crap SMC apparently put CT through accusing him of straw-mans left, right and center, before the above potentially-legit straw-man. Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:39, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
    There's no flaw to the argument—the rebuttal to it that SMcCandlish supports is to recast to avoid it, which is a tacit acknowlegement that the prescription is problematic (a large part of my basic point). This has been brought up by other editors in earlier discussions, which is why I revived it here. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:30, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Everyone misinterprets someone else's view occasionally (and I even did so with one of CT's, as already noted). But this is a consistent pattern of intentional, uncivil, disruptive mischaracterization as a debate tactic, to make other editors look stupid, dishonest, or trolling, and with the effect of derailing an RfC. It's extremely uncollegial, reminiscent of dirty political campaigning, not collaborative editing and consensus formation. It's also noteworthy that some of it was directed at, and objected to by, Cebr1979, whom CT continually lashes out again as "trolling". Who's trolling whom? CT not only has not retracted or apologized even once, to anyone, for any of these fabrications and distortions, he's escalated the behavior right here in this very ANI thread, as if daring the community to do anything about it. I don't think this should go unaddressed. I wasn't going to raise it as a behavioral issue to deal with right now, but CT has essentially forced this examination of his own behavior, by his escalation, further distortions' of others posts, and demands for the very diffs with which to hang him out to dry, so we might as well deal with it now. If it's as habitual as it looks, we'll just be back here to deal with it again when it arises in another discussion later.

At a minimum, Curly Turkey should be warned to stop engaging in willful falsification of others' statements, with a repeat of this pattern leading to sanctions.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  08:29, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

  • We'll let the kind folks examine the evidence and decide who is disruptive and who has distorted others' comments. While we're waiting, you might want to read the straw man article.
  • Food for thought: anyone who bothers to plow through that mess of an RfC might want to pay attention to different editors' tones with each other. Masem and I totally disagree with each other, yet manage to keep things congenial. Notice how quickly things devolve to ad hominems and accusations of bad faith once Cebr and SMcCandlish arrive on the scene. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:46, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I'll go through SMcCandlish's complaints more thoroughly later, but as someone who's worked with him for a long time, let me say that SmC regularly overreacts to benign and only moderately problematic posts, treating them as if they were malicious. It's usually not that big of a deal. I was a participant in this whole discussion and my principal reaction to the interactions between SmC and Curly was "There's SmC being SmC again."
Here's a relatively benign example of SMC's level of ability to communicate with others [61]: SMC: "This fails to do X." DF24: "'Fails' suggests I was attempting to do X." SMC: "It suggests no such thing." Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:36, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
1. This isn't a straw man. It's Curly asking me what I meant when I said something. I responded with a clarification and moved on. If SmC is referring instead to the time-travel comment, I don't see that as a straw man either, just an example. Not every example that doesn't fit perfectly is a straw argument.
2. This shows Curly Turkey providing sources to back up a contested claim. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. (@SMcCandlish: Your "and my objection to it," is the same link for points 1, 2 and 3. Error?)
3. Curly T giving a perfectly benign opinion. I see this as part of the communal effort to develop proper wording for a proposed addition to the MoS.
4. Okay, it's possible to consider this a straw man argument, but it's more likely to just be a mistake. Curly claims, "SmC is saying that [animate pronouns] are never used in this way" and that is not SmC's position, but at that point in the discussion, it wasn't unreasonable to make that kind of mistake over which editor believed what. This is what I mean when I say that SmC overreacts: He's saying "blatant misrepresentation" when it's probably just a mistake. To my memory Curly did not continue to say that SmC held this position after it became clear that SmC did not.
5. I'll say here what I said on the page itself: These are just two editors who value different things. Curly is saying, "But it hasn't actually happened that way; let's base our solution on observable evidence from the past and present" and SmC is saying "But it looks like it would; let's base our plans on logical extrapolation for the future." These are just two different ways of thinking.
6. This is just Curly saying that we should invite more people. I don't see the problem here. Oh, I see. Curly is framing the issue as, "whether the MoS should prohibit personal [animate] pronouns." Yes, that's not exactly the issue, but it is how the issue got started. Here's what happened: A) Another user was changing "a character who" to "a character that" under the belief that Wikipedia prohibits using "who" (the personal/animate pronoun in question) for fictional characters because they are things and not people. B) Curly T started a RfC at WT:MoS asking, "Is it okay to use animate/personal pronouns for fictional characters?" C) The answer came back "Yes, in fact that's standard" overwhelmingly and almost immediately. So at that point, no, there was no question that anyone was going to start prohibiting using "who" for fictional characters. Qualitatively, phrasing the issue like that while attempting to recruit new participants could be considered alarmist or even WP:POINT, but if you're just talking about it like that on the discussion section of an RfC that was started because someone thought they were already prohibited, then it's not that big of a deal. Did Curly Turkey use that language to recruit new participants or frame a new RfC?
7. Here, Curly Turkey says that he/she thinks SmC is reading too much into a specific source. No issue.
8. Curly Turkey is not saying "You did say this." He's saying "Would you say this?" He's trying to point out a flaw in someone else's reasoning. This is a perfectly constructive way to work out what everyone really thinks.
Summing up: Two of these cited examples, #4 and #6, could be less than desirable under certain circumstances, but they could have been resolved with, "Actually, I mean X, not Y" and "That's fine if you're just brainstorming, but don't actually phrase the official notice like that." Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:33, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
In the previous thread (Boomerang for User:Cebr1979), I kept my focus on Cebr1979's conduct; I'm going to be fair and do the same with Curly Turkey in this thread. The topic of concern here is Curly Turkey's conduct towards other editors, and the method in which he presenting his arguments in Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style. I'll start with the obvious: Curly Turkey's interaction with Cebr1979's can also be viewed as uncivil and unnecessary ([62] [63] [64] [65], to name a few). Two wrongs do not make a right, and if you honestly feel that you're being trolled, the last thing that you want to do is feed them. However, I've looked through the diffs provided by SMcCandlish, and I do not see any blatant or purposeful attempt to Straw man arguments in an attempt to win an edge over the debate, or contribute disruptively. The discussion being held on the WP:MOS talk page involved setting fourth requirements to use certain pronouns when addressing fictional characters in Wikipedia - and it seems like he was legitimately discussing his views. If anything, I saw that he was trying to keep on topic [66]. Unless I'm missing something, or more context needs explaining, I'm not seeing anything disruptive as far as "straw man" is concerned. Could some of his tone and word usage in his arguments been better? Yes. But was he disruptive to where action is required? No. The incivility I observed was mostly in response to Cebr1979's behavior (again, two wrongs do not make a right). However, I don't feel that any action is needed regarding Curly Turkey. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 12:55, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Turkey being uncivil? Well I'll be. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 14:13, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The problem with that analysis is that very little of CT's straw-manning was directed at Cebr in particular.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  23:15, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
The problem with your analysis is that nobody agrees that I posed any straw men, yet you continue to act as if it were an accepted fact. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:26, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
There seems to be a strong feeling here that CT has a slightly shorter than average temper and therefore must be at least partly at fault here. But I have actually had harsh disputes with him in the past, and never got the feeling that he was an overall drain on the project. Within eight hours of my first interacting with Cebr1979 I had someone going through my edits and misquoting me on an unrelated thread. I'm pretty sure I've dropped my fair share of F-bombs on this site in the past, and called other editors "troll" and the like. But the result was those editors getting blocked and me being given a slap on the wrist because ... I wasn't wrong when I called them trolls. Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:45, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
As I said above, I just posted the evidence that CT demanded against himself, thrice, and would just let the community (or ANI regulars, anyway) deal with the matter; I decline to respond to the CYA scrambling by CT and his micro-entourage. I would clarify for Hijiri88 that I'm not suggesting that CT is "an overall drain on the project"; he's just presently, recalcitrantly, and perhaps habitually (need more evidence) engaging in a particular uncivil and disruptive WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, a "forget why we're having this discussion, the important thing is to make sure everyone who disagrees with me looks like an idiot or liar by twisting their words or just blatantly making up nonsense about what they said" technique, and it has to stop. I also think there's insufficient evidence that Cebr is an overall drain on the project either, especially given the nature of his participation in the WT:MOS thread at issue (which has arguably been more constructive than CT's) and the nature of the "evidence" against Cebr mostly being only in relation to CT, even illustrative of the fact that CT has been just as hostile and dismissive to Cebr as vice-versa, or where it doesn't relate to CT it's about two years too old to be relevant. I repeat that I have my own concerns about Cebr, but ANI is not a fishing expedition, nor is it a "gang up, for extraneous reasons, on whomever irritated me the other day" party.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  23:15, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
<tongue-in-cheek>Firstly, I object to the term "his entourage". I think if you went through all the prior friendly interactions between me, Sturmgewehr88 and Curly Turkey, you will find that in all incidences I was the "ringleader" and they both agreed with me. If anything, CT is a member of my entourage, not the other way round!</tongue-in-cheek>
Secondly, "drain on the project" was not meant to imply anything about your view of CT (I actually wasn't replying to you specifically -- I haven't looked at your diffs yet, and if you look at where my post was originally placed yet it was pretty obvious). "Drain on the project" was referring to something of which I highly suspect Cebr1979 of being. My point was that, unless you show CT deliberately and proactively antagonizing Cebr, all this talk of CT using strawman arguments and dropping F-bombs is pretty irrelevant to the present discussion. Engaging in passive-aggressive CIR and/or IDHT and/or TROLL (even the "polite" kind) and then posting on ANI when the other user gets frustrated and tells you to "f*** off", is itself almost always block-worthy behaviour. And when other users have told the user "yeah, y'know, effing off probably would have been a good idea, and your best bet now would probably be to eff off as politely as possible and apologize profusely for the trouble you've caused", and the user's immediate response is to unilaterally close the discussion of his own behaviour, contribs-stalk and edit-war with random ANI commenters and otherwise be deliberately antagonistic ... well, I frankly think discussions of CT's short temper as expressed in previous and/or unrelated disputes are off-topic at best. If you don't think that CT is a drain on the project, why are you presenting negative arguments about CT to justify your opposition to sanctions against Cebr1979 who has shown incredibly disruptive behaviour in this thread?
Hijiri 88 (やや) 08:41, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
SMC, I've just spent over an hour going through your diffs and trying for the life of me to figure out what you thought was a straw-man argument in each case. As far as I can see, you agree with Cebr1979 on a content issue, and disagree with CT on the same issue, and so are trying to derail an ANI discussion of the behaviour of both users. Ignoring serious user conduct issues in order to win a content dispute is frankly quite ugly. Please do not discuss content issues on ANI, and if you have any legitimate evidence of mitigating circumstances for Cebr1979's atrocious conduct, you should present it. Otherwise, let the community deal with the matter based on what evidence is presented us. Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:39, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, except a) I don't actually agree with Cebr on the content issue, and have moved away from his position to an evolving compromise draft, for seven days now; b) this is a thread about CT's behavior that has been hijacked into a thread about Cebr's behavior before I even arrived, and I'm actually returning it to the original topic; and c) the issues I raised with regard to CT are entirely behavioral, about putting words in other people's mouths and twisting their words to misrepresent and denigrate their views, and these are objections that would hold no matter what the topic is or the content of the discussion, no matter whose position I agreed with, to what extent. PS: I never said anything about anyone dropping F-bombs; you seem to be confusing me and my arguments with someone else['s].  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  16:52, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
(Edit Conflict)SMcCandlish responded with this, then went here (diff). ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 16:16, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Right. I objected to the boomerang discussion as a distraction away from CT's own behavior in the matter. Diffs relating to that behavior were demanded. I provided them.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  16:52, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
And they've been shown by three editors besides myself to be nothing of the sort. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:15, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
"Argued" and "shown" are not synonyms. Darkfrog24 and Hijiri88 add up to two, not three. Even your chief defender Darkfrog24 criticized at least two of the diffs by you and Hijiri88 one of them, while the latter indicates he simply doesn't have enough information to determine whether they were straw-man arguments or not: "do I need to read through the entire discussion on MOS to establish whether CT was in fact accurate in his description of your arguments...?" (as well as seemingly confusing my posts with those of someone else, since me mentions me going on about "F-bombs" when I never mentioned any such thing). So, no, you are not totally exonerated as if by some magic wand, especially since concerns were raised about your behavior that had nothing to do with this later side thread.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  02:40, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Even your chief defender Darkfrog24 criticized at least two of the diffs by you and Hijiri88 one of them: step out of your Reality distortion field—neither "criticized" my good faith, which is your central argument—that I've lied and acted in bad faith. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:56, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
I frankly think this entire section should be collapsed as off-topic time-wasting. I won't do it myself since I've already tried that above and the resulting edit-war shitstorm put me in a bad mood, and I don't need that. Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:42, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure what editwar you're referring to (I've been doing other things), but you don't seem to be in a position to hat a discussion you're clearly negatively involved in, to hide away arguments about the original topic because they don't suit your present interest in pursuing a boomerang side action that at this point is such a stale idea it would be 100% punitive and vindictive. The entire tripartite thread should be closed by someone uninvolved in the discussion, with warnings against both of these parties, and if a new dispute involving similar behavior patterns arises with either of them, there'll be a basis on which to act, in an actually timely manner.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  16:52, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
warnings against both of these parties: you keep talking as if the community has agreed that I am a disruptive party. They seem to agree I've acted in good faith and the "strawmen" and "lies" you've accused me of simply aren't there. As for who put words in whose mouths ... Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:01, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Actually, several have agreed you were at least partially culpable in the actual dispute in question, that with Cebr1979. The straw man stuff is a side argument, nothing but a response to your own demands for diffs (at least three of which have raised doubts about your behavior even among your backers, despite the fact that they wish to dismiss the rest of them), and has little bearing on the original issue. The fact that you are strutting triumphantly about what you imagine wrongly to be a total exoneration is a bad sign, of WP:NOTGETTINGIT, WP:WINNING, and WP:BATTLEGROUND, though I expect you'll skate this time. Like I said, WP:Let the tiger show his stripes. Either you'll learn from this, or you'll be back here soon enough clearly evidencing the same pattern of self-righteous hostility. Let's hope it's the former. 02:40, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Three editors refuted your "strawman" links—Oshwah, Darkfrog24, and Hijiri88. Not one editor besides Cebr and yourself here has agreed I have been disruptive or acted in bad faith, or have said I have done anything worse than react in a less politic fashion than ideal.
The straw man stuff is a side argument: no, it was a false accusation that you've made central to your accusations against me of "willful falsification" and lying. You have been roundly refuted by everyone who has examined the evidence. This trainwreck is your baby, and I have no confidence you will approach the reboot next week in good faith. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:43, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I shouldn't have pinged the three editors above—I'm obviously acting in bad faith again. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:44, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Hello everyone! I'm currently camping but, have gone into town where my data works and thought I'd check to see what you all had decided...

I'm surprised to see this conversation is still going on. Can I offer a resolution? At this point, I would just like this to go away one way or another! Can I offer to be blocked for a week (whether that means ya'll find an admin to officially do it or whether it means I just stay away for 7 days: whichever is fine with me)? After that, if you decide I need to be mentored or undergo an iban with Curly Turkey (or both)... so be it (though, I will have some questions regarding an iban should you decide that route). This conversation has just gone every which way from Sunday and then every other which way from there too! I don't want an indef block and, do agree I handled some things inappropriately (though I am not guilty of everything being laid out here *I have never wiki-stalked anyone*). Most likely, I won't be able to check back until Monday but... I do hope this will be seen as a good compromise and we can all just move on.Cebr1979 (talk) 23:51, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd be satisfied with an informal promise to stay off my talk page. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:43, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Screw "informal," I *formally* promise to avoid your talk page like the plague! ;-) (if this shows up as an IP, this is Cebr1979).Cebr1979 (talk) 05:01, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Well, that solves that. Unfortunately SMcCandlish won't let things die and will likely flood the proposed RfC reboot with more marathon posts bludgeoning me over my ulterior motives. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:00, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bullying behavior from Drmies on the Murders of Alison Parker and Adam Ward talk page.[edit]

Feelings expressed. Feedback given. No admin action needed. Abecedare (talk) 01:55, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

First and foremost, I realize the talk page for a current event might be heated. And for my part I would like to apologize if any of my behavior on the talk page for Murders of Alison Parker and Adam Ward incited any issues. But I believe the user Drmies has engaged in bullying behavior on this talk page with little or no reason. Case in point, Drmies called me out on a comment I made to an IP user nearly 24 hours ago for little to no reason way later on in the thread nearly 24 hours later after the discussion had waned and died on its own. Additionally, when I called Drmies out on the issue I was threatened/bullied by him when | he stated, “I'll be glad to post a template on your talk page, if you need me to.”

What is the ultimate purpose of this type of moderation on the part of Drmies who is claiming I am “kind of inexperienced” when I have been active on Wikipedia since 2006 and they have been active since 2 years past that; 2008. I am not out to make enemies or get into bureaucratic nonsense; perhaps I do not quote Wiki-policy in ways that use stubs/acronyms like WP:DATELINK, but I do believe I act in good faith and make efforts to communicate in plain language that most anyone can understand in my edits and my comments.

And in the case of this article on the Murders of Alison Parker and Adam Ward I jumped in early on in it’s creation the day of the tragedy to simply add proper references and ask basic/realistic questions while a flurry of editors added/grew the new article. At this point I am fairly disengaged from the content of that page as it seems to have matured and has a life of it’s own; so then why is Drmies focusing on me and InedibleHulk as some sort of supposed “Wiki-plebes” who need to be “corrected” by his supposed “better” experience. --SpyMagician (talk) 00:45, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

I was pinged here, so I'll say I don't find Drmies' behaviour offensive. Just a difference of opinion. I'm not a co-plaintiff or anything. That's not to take away from SpyMagician's complaint, just that his feelings are his own. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:00, August 29, 2015 (UTC)
I also find nothing wrong with Drmies' behavior, even if I would have handled it differently. Incidentally I also don't like IcredibleHulk's sig, but it does not violate the signature guideline. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:07, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
@InedibleHulk: For someone who states, “…I don't find Drmies' behaviour offensive…” what exactly then do you mean by “Now and then, someoneone complains about the signature, but it's always been polite and I've always politely declined. You're the fifth.” None of this seems civil and the talk page drama is baseless. Again, if my reaction to the IP address editor was unseemly, I am sorry. But I do believe Drmies behavior—as outlined above—constitutes bullying but respect your POV. --01:10, 29 August 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SpyMagician (talkcontribs)
"Offensive" is one those million or so tricky English words. He's definitely on the other side on the argument, so he's my opponent and I'll defend my side, but there's difference between a display of power and a vulgar display of power. No headbanging needed for the former. Respect and walk stuff. Everyone knows that tune. Unlike Finnish and Italian Wikipedians, we have no article for "Fucking Hostile". Kumbaya! InedibleHulk (talk) 02:21, August 29, 2015 (UTC)
I'm familiar with this new page's subject matter, but I wasn't aware of the talk page drama. Drmies didn't say anything that specifically violated Wikipedia's rules. At most, called you out on coming across as an uncivil bully while dealing with I.P. addresses. So, an I.P. address has issues with figuring out formatting- so what? Additionally, have failed to directly talk with Drmies about your issues with his behavior before taking this to the Administrators' Noticeboard. Why are you asking question for us to answer for why he took up a certain attitude, rather than asking him directly yourself? I'd advise that you close this case of yours and at least attempt to have direct discourse beyond the article talk page. DARTHBOTTO talkcont 01:03, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
@DARTHBOTTO: If I am somehow “kind of inexperienced” in how to handle cases like this, please kindly direct me to a neutral resource that can “experience” me. --SpyMagician (talk) 01:10, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
@SpyMagician: I don't want you to feel offended by me, but you should talk with Drmies on his talk page here. I'm not defending him, so much as encouraging you not to take this issue to AN/I. You should try to solve this directly. DARTHBOTTO talkcont 01:13, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
@SpyMagician: The discussion on the talk-page got a bit heated and side-tracked into talk about signatures and relative experience, but I don't see any bullying or anything that would require admin intervention. Best to just chalk it up to the understatement alert unpleasant subject, and move on instead of dwelling on it and building it up into something larger than it was. Abecedare (talk) 01:07, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
@Abecedare: Honestly I am disengaged from this right now. I consider this my last comment here on the subject unless there is a true requirement I act here any further. Will leave here as-is and allow others who are more “experienced” than me to bureaucratically decide where this goes. --SpyMagician (talk) 01:12, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
It's not going to go the way you want it to. Drmies will not be sanctioned or even warned. This is because he is not a bully, and he is not bullying you. You've got to thicken your skin a little, especially when taking someone to this board. Doc talk 01:15, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
@Doc: FWIW, in my experience—in the real world and online—I find anyone who states one should “…thicken [their] skin a little” themselves should kick it down a notch on their side as well. It takes two to tango. --SpyMagician (talk) 01:53, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
  • @SpyMagician: I guess the question I have is, why is a somewhat snarky comment you made to the IP considered just "a comment I made to an IP user", but Drmies criticism of that "bullying"? It looks like you're asking to be treated better than you treat others. It's not bullying, it's (at worst) needless criticism. Pay attention to it, or ignore it, your choice, but why try to get it labelled "bullying"? --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:19, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
@Floquenbeam: The IP user in question 71.45.150.48 popped out of nowhere to ramble and complain about how Wikipedia is somehow engaging in a conspiracy to suppress the unwarranted claim that the actions of the shooter in that page constitute an anti-white hate crime. They have literally contributed nothing to Wikipedia other than paranoid, conspiracy laden hot-air. In contrast I have been part of Wikipedia since around 2006 and have made numerous positive contributions. So yes, I do believe I should be treated better than them. And now it’s not like I simply have disdain for IP users; far from it at all. In fact I spend some time on my own welcoming IP contributors as part of my vandalism patrol. But if an IP user shows up an basically contributes a net zero at best, I think I have a right to state, “Who are you to make claims like this when you could have edited the content yourself?” If people disagree with me, please… Educate me… But this is not the case of a long term IP user suddenly showing up and asking for something; this is an IP user who showed up in a flurry of events to say what they said. Heck, while the page in question (Murders of Alison Parker and Adam Ward) has limited protection right now, I’m pretty confident it was wide open to IP user contributions when the talk thread in question started. So that was double the reason to simply state, “Why complain? Do something!” So yes, I am asking I—and others—get treated better than some other users such as IP users who pop out of nowhere and basically vomit and point fingers. I don’t think that is unreasonable. --SpyMagician (talk) 01:33, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
<ec>You weren't being "bullied," and as a participant in that section I agree that your approach to the IP who asked the original question in that section was less than optimal, as is taking mild reproof to ANI. Acroterion (talk) 01:23, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Uninvolved Editor Opinion: I took a look at the discussion in question and I don't see any bullying on the part of Drmies. Just my 2 cents. - NeutralhomerTalk • 01:39, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Request for closure: SpyMagician has stated their intention to withdraw their grievance from AN/I and have actually posted on Drmies' wall, explaining their issue firsthand. Therefore, could be promptly close this case? DARTHBOTTO talkcont 01:34, 29 August 2015 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Special:Contributions/50.159.208.113[edit]

(non-admin closure) The IP was blocked. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} 01:12, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

should be blocked for this: [67]. 80.132.93.75 (talk) 19:09, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

 Done --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:11, 28 August 2015 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:GregJackP name-calling and racism on European colonization of Americas talk page[edit]

User has apologized, check time stamps.prokaryotes (talk) 10:50, 29 August 2015 (UTC))
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm reporting GregJackP for hurling ad hominems, including racially charged ones, against me, on Talk:European colonization of the Americas (in the "RfC: Should the word "seize" or "acquire" be used to describe the process through which colonists came to control the Americas?" section). Statements include "you cannot trust the white government", "my people vs. your people", and "loser". Request evaluation and recommendation from an administrator. Thank you. JordanGero (talk) 05:55, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

  • After reading his comments, I do not see them as directed at you. They are part of a discussion on a controversial topic. Nothing more. In addition, your failure to notify Greg about this thread is in direct violation of ANI procedures. (notification made after I posted this message) I recommend you actually talk this over with Greg instead of this premature action you have taken. --Stabila711 (talk) 06:01, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I responded to his condescending remarks in kind, and he doesn't like it. I'll go clarify "loser" to read "loser case," which, since he indicated he was an attorney I thought he would understand. Besides, Indians can't trust the white government, and I can post a long list of case law to support that statement. GregJackP Boomer! 06:07, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
You remarks came off as extremely insulting and racist, regardless of what my profession is. Saying "my people vs. your people" and "Indians can't trust the white government" are statements suited for the past century. You very well have an underlying point regarding persisting racial disparities and white privilege, but the way you phrased your statements is not ok, and neither is it ok for you to assume my racial identity and characterize me as "your people vs. my people." JordanGero (talk) 06:12, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I apologize for assuming that you were not Indian. It was not my intent to infer that you were part of a lesser race. GregJackP Boomer! 06:27, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I accept your apology, though your exact assumption was that I am Caucasian (white), and not simply that I was not an Amerindian. My race is inconsequential to the discussion, which is why I felt that you were crossing the line. JordanGero (talk) 07:13, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I don't understand why you would apologize and then do the exact same thing again- why do you persist in speaking of my race? [[68]] Even if you knew exactly what my racial identity was, what is the relevance of that? JordanGero (talk) 08:14, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
@GregJackP: Which races would you consider "lesser"? Kleuske (talk) 10:21, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
  • This case could've been discussed elsewhere but for whatever reason, it's been brought here. The complainant has challenged GregJackP about it, GregJackP has apologised, the complainant has accepted the apology, now can we all move on? CassiantoTalk 09:08, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

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User abusing multiple accounts[edit]

Wrong forum, try WP:SPI. Lankiveil (speak to me) 10:05, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have rolled back the posts made by them but I wanted to leave a record so they can be blocked whenever an admin sees this.

166.170.48.130
166.170.50.156

Any others that pop up in the meantime I will add.

Thanks! --Stabila711 (talk) 09:15, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

you must be new here. 166.176.58.155 (talk) 09:22, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
This guy. JordanGero (talk) 09:25, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Stabila711, you might do well to take into account that IPs are frequently dynamic - the mere fact that they change isn't in of itself evidence of abuse. AndyThe