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TBAN for Korvex from biblical archeology[edit]

Indefinitely site-banned by the community for the many user conduct issues identified in this thread. This editor has not demonstrated that he is able or willing to follow policies and guidelines or that he is here to build an encyclopedia. Neutralitytalk 18:18, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Korvex is a pure WP:SPA for biblical archeology topics, who brings a strong POV of Biblical maximalism to Wikipedia (the view that the narratives in the Bible are actual history).

Per their edit count they have 364 edits since they opened their account in October 2016. ~200 of them are to article Talk and ~90 are to articles themselves.

Korvex almost exclusively cites things by Bryant G. Wooddrama boards published on the website of Associates for Biblical Research (ABR) where Wood is research director. ABR describes itself as a ministry and links to the "The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy" in its "about" page.

Others have added bad content cited to ABR as well. For instance an IP added content here sourced to this page at the ABR website, which has a video explaining why their work is essential -- namely "This (uncertainty) has led scholars to reject the historicity of the account of the capture of Ai, the Conquest in general, the Exodus by implication, and ultimately, the Gospel of God's Son." (clears throat)

Sample edits:

  • first edit was to The Exodus, added content arguing for historicity of the event, citing 2 postings by Wood at the ABR website. That edit was reverted.
  • second edit was to Book of Exodus, removing the word "myth", changing BCE to BC (oy), adding content that makes the argument that the whole Torah must be very old because of a very old tiny scroll with a few verses found on it, adding some OR cited to some bible verses. It was reverted.

You are getting the picture. The rest is more of the same.

This posting is prompted by Korvex's recent fixing on Ai (Canaan), a city discussed in the bible as being conquered by Joshua, which scholars/archeologists have not been able to find any definitive RW site for. Korvex's hero Bryant Wood believes that Ai is current day Khirbet el-Maqatir; hardly anybody else thinks so, but Korvex wants to give significant WEIGHT to that (like this (reverted by Guy here; restored in part by Korvex here (mentioning Wood in the edit note); reverted here by me.

Korvex showed up a month later and added another Wood ref here out of an edited book, trying to argue that this was independent of ABR. I reverted, Korvex restored, I removed again.

We rejected that source, as edited book chapters are often not solid scholarly works and after a lot of drama on Talk we encouraged him to go RSN, which he did, and where the source was shot down.

Korvex showed up again 2 days ago and did this, reverted by Doug Weller here, restored by Korvex here, reverted by User:Drmies here, restored by Korvex here, reverted by me here.

All though this Korvex has been BLUDGEONing the heck out of the talk page (talk page revision stats here; just their contribs here) not to mention leaving notes on my user Talk page like this (about a bogus edit war warning from another misguided editor).

Korvex is becoming a time sink. They are not WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia, but are a SPA Advocate for biblical historicity in biblical archeology, and are doing the typical things like bringing poor sources, edit warring to try to keep them, and battering the talk page. Am asking the community to consider a TBAN from biblical archeology.Jytdog (talk) 00:39, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Biblical archaeology is far from something I know a great deal about, but I will note that Korvex does seem to be editing with a strong POV. For instance, they changed the fact that Richard Dawkins is separated from his wife to their being divorced, when the source says, quite specifically, that they're separated. He also used a citation from an open access journal, the Journal of Hebrew Scriptures, to make a point, without identifying the source, just the author and title of the paper. (An open access journal, of course, would not be acceptable as an RS for anything except the existence of the journal and whatever editorial comments they may make, not for the material published by the journal.) Whether he did that out of ignorance or to hide the source, I don't know. Numerous other edits of his which seemed dicey to me have been reverted by other editors. I think folks who know something about their subject matter should take a closer look at Korvex's editing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:00, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Jytdog makes many obvious errors. Jytdog apparently believes that the "only person" I cite is my "hero" Bryant Wood, but the enormity of this error is great. I've cited countless scholars in my Wiki history in conversations and edits, including 1) George Mendenhall, 2) Christopher Theis, 3) Joshua Berman, 4) Koert Van Bekkum, etc, etc, etc. Jytdog thinking that Wood is the only guy I cite is simply false.
Jytdog then states that my only edits have to do with advancing my narrative on biblical archaeology -- an obvious error. I've made edits that have nothing to do with proving biblical archaeology, including 1) William F. Albright's page (fixing sentences) 2) Eilat Mazar's page and expanding her discoveries 3) Finkelstein's book Bible Unearthed 4) encyclopedia list of online encyclopedias 6) page of Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy 7) Yaki Yerushalayim page, etc, etc, etc. Jytdog also makes another funny error when he states I try to source virtually everything Wood has published, but the only work I have ever referred to from Wood is his work on Khirbet el-Maqatir. It is true though, that the majority of my work on Wikipedia has to do with the religion and political state of Israel, as well as Israeli archaeologists. Jytdog's only research seems to be limited to the talk page of Ai (Canaan). Jytdog also makes another grand error when he says no one asides from Wood considers the identification of Ai as Khirbet el-Maqatir, but that's an error for a different page to discuss.
It should be obvious that Jytdog's accusations come from his personal vendetta against me. His post advocating for my ban is full of mockery, and has many personal attacks (that I'm a "sinking time ship"). Jytdog has an obvious personal vendetta, where he believes a few selectively chosen edits of mine being reverted constitutes a ban.
As for Beyond My Ken, someone who is obviously neutral because he posts his comment in a calm tone and tries to judge the situation accordingly, makes good points. I did in fact seem to make an error with the open source journal JHS, and as for Dawkins' page, whether or not the source says "divorce" or "separated", Dawkins was in fact divorced with his third wife. If the source fails to reflect that, we need to get a new source that makes it clear to the reader of Wikipedia that Dawkins wasn't just "separated", a rather ambiguous term, but did in fact get divorced from Lalla Ward. See this for example: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3694202/Britain-s-highest-profile-atheist-Richard-Dawkins-announces-end-24-year-marriage-Dr-actress-Lalla-Ward.html Korvex (talk) 01:14, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
That's not how it works. If a source says something, we report it. If you don't agree with it, you find a different reliable source and then debate it. You don't change it and then try to find a source to fit the claim. Also DM has been determined not to be a reliable source. Try again. --Tarage (talk) 01:40, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Why is Journal of Hebrew Scriptures a problem?
And why is, "(An open access journal, of course, would not be acceptable as an RS for anything except the existence of the journal and whatever editorial comments they may make, not for the material published by the journal."? You appear to be conflating open access journal with predatory open access journal. Why? Andy Dingley (talk) 23:17, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • They are the academic equivalent of a blog, with no guarantee of accuracy or fact checking, despite the claim to be "peer reviewed". Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:02, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Andy Dingley (talk) 09:33, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I don't have extensive experience with this editor, but my brief interaction has been unpleasant: I think this editor adheres to fringe scholarship and it seems to me that they try to favor those fringey viewpoints in article space. They also seem to lack a basic understanding of how the editing process here works (note their latest revert and their comment, on Ai (Canaan) and Talk:Ai (Canaan)). Finally OH MY GOD the amount of verbiage they put on these talk pages is enough to drive one insane--and I find such verbosity typical of POV warriors and other tendentious editors/hobbyists/fringe inhabitants. So sure, I support a topic ban. Drmies (talk) 02:19, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
    • PS If Korvex would only refrain from edit warring (it may be that they just don't really understand how that BRD thing works, or consensus, or whatever) they'd be in a lot less trouble. If they figure that out, or make certain promises, I might reconsider. Drmies (talk) 02:56, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • In line with what the other editors here have said, Korvex's editing history has created a large amount of work for other editors. Most of Korvex's edits are not to wikipedia pages themselves, but to talk pages, where (in most cases) the result is a long and unproductive disagreement, with Korvex on one side and every other editor on the other. I have several times been one of the "other editors" in the long, drawn-out "Korvex contra mundum sessions." Korvex is focused either exclusively or almost exclusively on topics related to religion, and in general edits in an attempt to move the articles further in line with a maximalist (i.e. religiously conservative) position. In general, discussions between Korvex and other editors do not reach a resolution, and are filled with long, tedious, and consistently disrespectful posts by Korvex, in which Korvex frequently (I assume accidentally) misrepresents the contents of various cited sources and misrepresents the meaning of Wikipedia policy pages. Korvex probably has the ability to contribute to Wikipedia constructively outside of fields related to the historicity of the Bible, but given that their editing history is one long campaign of POV-pushing, often with a tone that appears to be uncivil filibustering, a TBAN would be appropriate. Otherwise, Korvex is likely to prove disruptive in the future and distract from the goal of building an encyclopaedia. If they continue editing in the present manner, other editors will be faced with the choice of either (1) repeatedly having long fruitless discussions with an angry editor, or (2) simply giving up and allowing biased editing to avoid drama. Alephb (talk) 02:41, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
To clarify, I support a TBAN for religion (best) but if that's determined to be too broad, I would support a TBAN for biblical history, biblical historicity, biblical studies, and/or biblical archaeology. Alephb (talk) 11:11, 16 March 2017 (UTC) PS: and/or ancient Egypt and the near East, broadly constructed. That would work too. Alephb (talk) 11:12, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Strong support for TBAN Removing neutral dating and adding christocentric dating in an article on Judaism would be enough in itself to warrant a ban, even without all the other stuff. IMO, we have far too much tolerance for both civil and uncivil POV-pushers in this particular area. He doesn't like me naming him, but everyone probably knows who I'm talking about when I say we had a massively disruptive POV-pusher operating in this area for far longer than he should have been, with the admin corps apparently afraid to do much about him until he started calling evolutionists and secularists Nazis. (In case anyone doesn't know, ask Bishonen.) As far as I am concerned, the sooner problems involving the early books of the Hebrew Bible and their relationship to archeology, geology, biology and history are discovered and dealt with, the better. Hijiri 88 (やや) 03:39, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
BTW, I think the ban should be from ancient Egypt and the Near East, broadly construed. The TBAN parameters as proposed by Jytdog are far too narrow, and actually wouldn't cover a significant amount of the disruptive behaviour described. Richard Dawkins' marital status is so far removed from the rest that I think the only way it could be covered is with a TBAN from "religion", if that's seen as necessary, but most of the other stuff appears to fall within "ancient Egypt and the Near East", though not necessarily biblical archeology. Bickering over the definition of the word "myth", for instance, has nothing whatsoever to do with archeology, and he was doing it on an article about an ancient text, which would not necessarily fall within the proposed parameters either. Ditto for the christocentric dating in an article on a Jewish topic, in contravention of WP:ERA (which has nothing whatsoever to do with archeology, and he could easily keep doing it under the proposed ban). That, plus I'm not a fan of the term "biblical archeology" to begin with -- it's dated terminology that cedes too much ground to users with the same POV as Korvex: as Christine Hayes says And it was explicitly referred to as biblical archaeology — an interesting name, because it suggests that the archaeologists were out there searching for evidence that would verify the details of the biblical text. We're doing biblical archaeology; archeology in support of the biblical text. [...] Increasingly, practitioners of what was now being termed Palestinian archaeology, or Ancient Near Eastern archaeology, or archaeology of the Levant, rather than biblical archaeology — some of these archaeologists grew disinterested in pointing out the correlations between the archaeological data and the biblical stories or in trying to explain away any discrepancies in order to keep the biblical text intact. Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:12, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
@JzG: @Alephb: @Drmies: @Jytdog: Per my post above and Doug Weller's below, the original proposed TBAN parameter (in the thread title) doesn't appear to be broad/clear enough. Could you clarify what topic (Near Eastern [biblical] archeology; biblical history; ancient Egypt and the Near East; religion) you think Korvex should be banned from? Hijiri 88 (やや) 09:44, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Consider the other side These "long and unproductive" debates have only happened with me on three single pages so far as I'm concerned. 1) Exodus 2) Ai (Canaan) 3) Book of Deuteronomy. In my initial post, I've shown 6 pages where I have made edits with either zero debate on the talk page or at most, 2 short responses, which shows the good majority of my edits have gone smoothly. I can show much more than 6, of course. Regarding my "bickering" over the word myth, that is actually a serious issue where Aleph insists on literally labeling the position of Wikipedia as the first five biblical books as fiction. This to me is unacceptable, an error, and of COURSE I have responded to it. It's hard to imagine I'd be banned from all discussion on religion because of drawn-out discussion on three pages (seriously) that have almost all ended. Lastly, if Tarage can direct me to a place where Daily Mail was deduced as unreliable, by Wikipedia standards, I would accept that. But again, producing a ban because of drawn out discussion on three pages (where two of it has entirely ceased for some time) seems rather unnecessary. Someone said I should be banned "just" for switching BCE to BC, but that was literally my first or second edit in the entirety of my Wikipedia account where I had just started editing and did not know about WP:ERA. I'd also accept from refraining edits in those 3 pages where I'm prone to engaging in debates for the next month or so, if that makes a difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Korvex (talkcontribs) 05:11, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
For anyone trying to follow along, the reference to "Aleph" in the paragraph above is about this edit by Korvex [1], which I reverted [2]. This has spawned the latest exchange here, which went on while this ANI was already in progress: Talk:Mosaic authorship#Charter myth and recent undid edit. Alephb (talk) 05:28, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Korvex, if you push a fringe theory or make antisemitic, offensive, or non-NPOV edits, it doesn't matter how often other users have challenged you and you have fought back, resulting in "long and unproductive debates". Twice should be enough, but even by your own admission it has happened on three separate pages. If you are not a POV-pushing SPA, that should be the easiest thing in the world for you to prove; yet you have to resort to counting the number of articles on which you have gotten in massive blowouts with other editors -- what does this say? Hijiri 88 (やや) 05:46, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Korvex, here´s the Daily Mail thing you wanted: [3]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:51, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I've had the opportunity to interact with Korvex on one of the pages in question. I'm sure some of you are waiting for me to waffle about how he's not that bad, and a stern warning should be enough. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint, but based on what I've seen I must strongly Support a TBAN from articles on biblical history or ancient Egypt and the near East. I crossed the line of "give them another chance" when I saw them say "The exodus happened, end of discussion." And if you think that's bad (and you have any knowledge of the subject), take a look at the logic they used to arrive at that conclusion. It makes my brain itch to know that someone actually thought that was a compelling argument. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 05:22, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
To MjolnirPants: It seems as if my ban on 'religion' is inevitable, but I have without question established my case for the exodus. You were unable to refute my contentions, and using our personal debate to ban me seems unproductive. You have 1) Tried to explain the Book of Exodus' vast knowledge on the geography and customs of Egypt with "maps" 2) Spent an unfortunate amount of time trying to defend the claim that nomadic migrations leave remains, after being conclusively shown to be false 3) Called Petrovich a "fringe scholar" until of course I brought up his actual credentials and 4) Conflated the abandonment of Avaris during the reign of Ahmose I with the abandonment of Avaris in the reign of Amenhotep II. So, you were indeed wrong about that, but again, this conversation had nothing to do with any actual edits -- I specifically stated my debate with you was to show your claims were wrong and that I also had no intention of adding the content I espoused into the Wiki page. You were simply incorrect about the historicity of the Exodus with me, as I was incorrect about the validity of Murdock's quote or whatnot on that mythicism page. I have offered you an opportunity to defend your responses on my Talk Page, but you were unable to because of points 1-4 that I mentioned here. And for the third time, using a personal conversation with someone to ban them from edits is not the way to do things (but again, the ban looks inevitable as of now). If you want to ever claim that I was speaking any factual errors in our personal conversation, you're going to have to bring the evidence to my Talk Page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Korvex (talkcontribs) 14:46, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Take a look at the above: Aside from disruptive formatting and a really frequent problem with signing their posts, the POV problems are made obvious by this apparently willful inability to distinguish between a refusal to engage and an failure to rebut. Note also that they continue to insist upon the historicity of the Exodus, not just in terms of their own belief but in terms of fact, a statement which is flatly at odds with the overwhelming scholarly consensus.
Korvex: In case you don't get it, understand that I'm not going to engage with anyone who claims they've proven me wrong by claiming I'm wrong. Every single point of fact we've discussed has been supported by citations to evidence by myself and by bald assertions by you. You have, not once in the entire brief discussion we had, provided a single shred of evidence to support any of the assertions that you claim have proven me wrong. Indeed, I see below where you continue to make wildly unsupported claims right here in this very discussion. If you think I'm going to waste any more time trying to prove you wrong when you clearly believe that it's impossible for you to be wrong, you're sadly mistaken. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:58, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
To Mjolnir:, you're taking this too personally. Sit back for a second. All my claims have in fact been supported by references. I gave you quotations from world-renowned scholars like Richard Hess. I've given you references to excavations by scholars like Manfred Bietak. Why does this disappear from your memory immediately after I post it? It seems you are not very open to evidence that may challenge your view on the exodus. You gave very few citations, if any. You gave some citations to some nomadic settlements, but as I repeatedly pointed out, we were discussing nomadic migrations, not nomadic settlements. You state that the overwhelming scholarly consensus is against me. Something tells me you only read minimalist literature, Mjolnir. Grand scholars like Richard Hess, James Hoffmeir, Eugene Merrill, Kenneth Kitchen would dismiss exodus ahistoricity on any day of the week. This "consensus" seems to exist only in minimalistic imagination, I plead with you not to take up the minimalist agenda as this is very self-detrimental. Again, I have provided overwhelming evidence for my positions. I am getting tired of being constantly insulted by you, being told I am making "bald assertions" and that discussion with me is a "waste of time". All the evidence is on my side. You say that you simply are not willing to respond to me, not that you actually cannot respond to me. This is rather strange, considering you posted 3 hefty responses to me earlier, and then stopped when the evidence became too overwhelming to rebut. You have called people like Petrovich "fringe scholars" in order to maintain your hypothesis. These claims are indefensible. You will not be able to defeat me regarding exodus historicity. We likely will not converse again after this, so I will give you the last word. You can either attempt to defend the historical veracity of your claims, or you can resort to name-calling again. Go ahead.Korvex (talk) 17:20, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
To Mjolnir:, you're taking this too personally. Sit back for a second. All my claims have in fact been supported by references. I rest my case. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:57, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
In light of MP's ("MPs'"?) comments in another discussion further up this page, the above should be taken pretty seriously. I'm sure some of you are waiting for me to waffle about how he's not that bad, and a stern warning should be enough is right. MP is one of the most patient, forgiving users I have seen editing in this area, so his coming down as he is here is noteworthy. Hijiri 88 (やや) 05:50, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
MP's would be the correct choice. MPs would be something completely different. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:47, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
To MjolnirPants: Your most recent personal attacks against me are getting out of hand. You state I am "trivial to disprove" despite the fact that you were wrong on everything in our personal discussion. You are crossing the line when it comes to respect and not even backing up your statements with any evidence, I am attempting to take all your attacks against me without insulting you however you seem to think that my limiting time on Wikipedia warrants you replace your fruitless arguments in our previous discussions by attacking my character. This is absolutely not the way to have a coherent debate, you must treat your opponent with respect regardless of whether or not you have faired successfully in a debate with them. You also make an innumerable number of errors regarding your latest personal attacks on Petrovich as well. I have told you Petrovich has a PhD in syro-Palestinian Archaeology and is a professor of ancient Egypt at Wilfred Laurier University. Yet you attack him. I have shown that the book has been peer reviewed, and apparently the fact that he needed a Kickstarter to raise money to be able to find his research (Petrovich is nothing near rich) apparently disqualified that. Furthermore, fringe hypotheses are not presented at ASOR, obviously Despite all this you attack Petrovich personally. You ignore the endorsement of his book from grand scholars like Eugene Merrill and other scholars like Sarah Doherty, and conclude not only is it fringe but you warrant personal attacks against him. Your behaviour reflects that when you cannot substantively address someone, whether it is me or a scholar, you attack them. Coincidentally, Petrovich's book speaks exactly about a priori rejection of a thesis that does not affirm to ones presuppositions. When you become a professor of Ancient Egypt at Wilfrid Laurier University (funny how a supposedly fringe scholar is a professor in one of the best universities in Canada), maybe your a priori dismissal can be considered. My session on Wikipedia is nearing its end, I am happy that the large majority of my edits on numerous pages have been accepted and have mixed ideas about this coming to an end.
And this is a perfect example why a siteban is necessary. Despite your continued insistence, Petrovich's book is NOT peer reviewed. You don't seem to understand what peer review means when it comes to scholarly papers or publications. Secondly, fringe hypotheses are indeed presented at the ASOR annual meeting. They will let just about anyone who is paying ASOR member, including students, to do presentations at the annual meeting. Here's their rules: http://www.asor.org/am/2017/rules.html which no way confer any scholarly reliability to the participants. The chairs just have to find it interesting enough to present and they have a TON of slots to fill. Finally, Eugene Merrill is not a "Grand Scholar" in any way. He's a Biblical literalist who only publishes in Biblical literalist theology journals. Really only one to be frank. The one published by the seminary he was a part of. He's as fringe as fringe gets. Biblical inerrancy is fringe. That's why they have to make their own journals because their "evidence" for inerrancy would never pass the peer review of actual scholarly journals. Capeo (talk) 13:50, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
To Capeo: Capeo, what analysis do you speak from? EUGENE H Merill being fringe? Two of his works have been cited over a hundred times, many others with a large amount as well. Definitely a renowned Old Testament scholar by every thing I've seen about him and the influence of his academic work. Wikipedia actually has a page on him (that you did not consult) noting he is distinguished professor at Dallas Theological Seminary (a major academic institution with other leading scholars in New and Old Testament scholarship as professors like Darrel Bock and Daniel freaking Wallace). He's definitely a literalist, but so are so many other leading scholars in Old Testament scholarship that this couldn't possibly qualify as fringe. In my opinion, the top New Testament scholar in the world is N.T. Wright (search up the citations to his works and try not to explode) -- a literalist by almost any definition. So of course, a work with Merrill's name on it is by definition one that cannot be dismissed, even if found to be incorrect a year later, although I'm not aware of any scholars to have ever been correct on everything.Korvex (talk) 23:11, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
I didn't want to get involved in the Petrovich stuff any more, but I am tired of being told that he is a Professor at Wilfrid Laurier. Yes, he manages to get called this in the media, but he isn't one. His academic.edu site[4] calls him an adjunct teaching Ancient Egypt(something I've told Korvex before), and the University doesn't call him professor. See this and scroll down to HI299E: ANCIENT EGYPT (WINTER) where is is given no title. But at HI121: ANCIENT HISTORY IN A GLOBAL CONTEXT (WINTER) you'll see a real professor with the title. And the course he is teaching is not a standard part of the curriculum. Note its number if HI299E, and "Courses carrying special numbers (HI299, HI346, HI496) are established when a faculty member has an interest in pursuing a topic of study that is not part of our regular course offerings." Doug Weller talk 14:11, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for that insight, Doug, I don't think I would've picked up on that. I also have to say, yourself and other editors involved on the talkpages of the articles in question have shown a level of patience that goes above and beyond what I could ever do. That Exodus talkpage in particular is an example of bludgeoning on a level rarely seen. No editors should have to put up with such endless repetition of OR, SYNTH and baseless refuted claims lacking RS. It's that talkpage in particular that has me convinced that a TBAN is insufficient. Korvex doesn't seem interested in trying to understand even the most basic sourcing policies and guidelines. Capeo (talk) 15:10, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Support a topic ban. This kind of user causes burnout because they are here to mould the encyclopaedia to fit their own worldview, and they don't permit of the possibility that their worldview is wrong. Guy (Help!) 08:38, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Support a TBAN from articles on biblical history or ancient Egypt and the near East. and given his edits at Dawkins, religion. One of the issues I've had with him is misrepresenting sources. His Dawkins edits are a good example of that. First he changes "separated" to "divorced" with an edit summary "Separation is an ambiguous term and fails to reflect it was an actual divorce)". This despite the fact that the source makes no mention of divorce. He even misrepresents himself. On being accused of pushing Wood he replied that he cites other sources, such as Koert van Bekkum. Now van Bekkum seems to be a reliable source and indeed Korvex did use him, but he used him to add " "However,scholars are not entirely certain that Et-Tell is the location of Ai. Koert van Bekkum says that there is scholarly discussion on the location of several biblical cities, including Ai,[1] citing Bryant G. Wood who has recently come to identify Ai with Khirbet el-Maqatir." The paragraph already mentioned Wood, stating that " Bryant G. Wood's identification has been accepted by some[12] although rejected by others." so this simply added another mention of Wood. Not only that, the mention of Wood was in a footnote which said "For literature concerning Ai and the related discussion about the identification of Bethel with el-Bireh in stead of with Beitin (172.148), see D. Livingston, ‘Further Considerations on the Location of Bethel and El-Bireh’, PEQ 126 (1994), 154-9; B.G. Wood, ‘Khirbet el-Maqatir’, IEJ 50 (2000), 123-30; 249-54; for Tel el-Umeiri and Tel Jalul as candidates for Heshbon, see S.H. Horn, ‘Heshbon’, IDBS, 410; Idem, Hesban in the Bible and in Archaeology, Berrien Springs, MI 1982, 10-1; R.D. Ibach, ‘An Intensive Survey at Jalul’, Andrews University Seminary Studies 16 (1978), 215-22; Geraty, ‘Heshbon’, 626." And given that the article was about the city of Ai, the failure to mention what van Bekkum actually said about Ai, "Et-Tell, identified by most scholars with the city of Ai, was not settled between the Early Bronze and Iron Age I." but only use a footnote mentioning Wood seemed to me, in this context, to misrepresent the source. He certainly only used it in order to get another mention fo Wood into the article, making his statement "Jytdog thinking that Wood is the only guy I cite is simply false." looking a bit - well, a bit something. He then at the talk page accused me of suggesting he was lying, something I didn't do. Which is another big problem, his continual personalisation of discussions and attacks on other editors during talk page discussions. These range from accusing User:Tgeorgescu 2 months ago of lying[5] to more recent accusations of slander[6] and another attack on Tgeorgescu[7]. He also accused User:Zero0000 of pov pushihng and misrepresenting our policies and guidelines at Talk:Ai (Canaan)#Bryant Wood and the Associates for Biblical Research.
I could provide more detail about misrepresentation, use of poor sources, WP:UNDUE, personal attacks etc but unless asked I don't want to waste even more time here. They're mentioned or discussed on the talk pages anyway. Doug Weller talk 09:10, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment The above was advice, but seen his subsequent edits, it seems that he does not comprehend what the problem is about. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:54, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Strong support for an indefinite topic ban for this persistent POV-pusher, from biblical archeology — or from biblical history and ancient Egypt and the near East and religion — indeed from any areas that otherwise gain consensus here. I'd ban him on my own responsibility if the subject was under discretionary sanctions, but since it's not, I hope the community will take care of it. The time and energy of constructive editors is Wikipedia's main resource, and is not to be squandered like that. (I know, I'm like a grammophone with that, but it's true.) As JzG says above, this kind of user causes burnout. Bishonen | talk 10:51, 16 March 2017 (UTC). Adding: After reading the further comments below, I'll support an indefinite block, too. Bishonen | talk 21:37, 16 March 2017 (UTC).
@Bishonen: I hope you don't mind, but I corrected what looked like a really obvious misprint in the above comment. I guess "bibliographical archeology" is a thing (digging up ancient books like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag Hammadi Codices and the Dunhuang Manuscripts?), but I was 100% certain that wasn't what you meant to write. ;-) Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:10, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Support TBAN. Just at Talk:The Exodus he has written close to 20,000 words and shows no sign of slowing down. Moreover, his argumentation is rife with illogic, sophism and misrepresentation of sources. He believes what he believes and arguing against him is useless. He needs to be disappeared from any topic connected to religion and the bible, which includes archaeology of the Middle East and the history of languages. Zerotalk 12:16, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Zero. That I show "no sign of slowing down" is, I find to be not correct, as all my conversations on the Talk Page of the Exodus have finished. As for the history of languages, I understand religions, but history of languages? Are you referring to Doug's book again, in which the thesis of it has been peer-reviewed and presented to the American Schools of Oriental Research, as well as confirmed by grand scholars like Eugene Merrill? You seem to be trying to take this ban thing from religion and trying to extend over topics that you have not conformed with your personal disagreements with me, and are attempting to extend it over topics that I have made not a single attempt to edit for. Korvex (talk) 14:46, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • It looks as if the ban is inevitable with so many people against me. I have already admitted that I have had drawn-out conversations (that have all ended by the timing of this post) on three different pages, and perhaps that warrants the ban. But I will in fact defend myself from accusations of actual errors and illogical content that I wanted to add in the edit, as I considered my edits to be true, and therefore wanted to add them into Wikipedia (for examples, Dawkins did in fact get divorced from Lalla, but because the sources used the synonymous word 'separated' in this event, this edit of mine was blocked, and is now considered evidence I'm a POV-pusher). This is not the place to defend my edits, so if anyone thinks I have made factual errors regarding the truth of what I actually wanted to add in Wikipedia can discuss that with me on my talk page. Anyways, I do have a point of view (everybody does), and maybe I have indeed taken it too far twice or thrice. I will accept the verdict of the admins on this issue.Korvex (talk) 14:46, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
    • Korvex, my question to you is whether this criticism (and I know it's not easy to handle so much of it, sorry) makes any sense to you. Specifically, do you see how the totality of your edits seem to evidence a POV, and how that particular POV is considered fringe? or at least not neutral? or, maybe, less neutral than the non-biblical archeological perspectives? Drmies (talk) 15:31, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
      • For me the problem with the Dawkins edits are not so much that you are for some reason now looking at atheists and atheism (given your post at Talk:Atheism) but that you are still misrepresenting sources. We do not decide for ourself what a source "really means" (you didn't say those words but you implied them). This type of use of sources is a constant problem with you. And your reply to Zero about Douglas Petrovich's book is another. You keep making exaggerated statements. His "thesis" has not been peer-reviewed in any way that I recognise, his book has so far not received a review so far as I know other than this one and you haven't produced one, and his thesis, that Hebrew is the basis of the world's oldest alphabet[8][9] is definitely not widely accepted. Doug Weller talk 15:51, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Drmies, yes, I understand and admit that 2-3 of my edits did in fact POV push. I fully admit this and if I receive a ban, I accept the ban I will be given. I can do nothing my past actions except for admit my mistakes. As for Petrovich, I don't know what this has to do with discussion on my ban but I will respond. Regarding Petrovich as not having his work peer-reviewed, this is incorrect -- Petrovich's publishers have peer-reviewed it. I even found some of his discussion with supporters of the funding of his book to be published that this is correct. It has also been presented to the American Schools of Oriental Research - see pages 105-106 - which is significant and definitely makes it "reliable", because the prestige of the ASOR is not easily equaled by most journals. Doug, you also point out the book only has one 'review' -- but it has already spurred discussion from people who accept it (Eugene Merrill, Sarah Doherty, I think that new chronology guy David Rohl also accepts it, Carr) and from those who do not accept it (Christopher Rollston, Thomas Shneider). Some of these names are pretty big, Doug. If you actually take a look at the current debate existing on the subject, you'll see that the evidence is heavily stacked in favor of Petrovich's side -- I have read all the positive and negative discussion. The proto-consonantal script has names only attested to in the Hebrew language (like Ahisemech), for example. Lastly, I don't know if express.co.uk is considered reliable by Wikipedia, but I found an article there that uses the phrase "their 24-year marriage is at an end" to describe what happened between Dawkins and Lalla. I will not use it to try to make an edit considered the current situation I'm in, but if express.co.uk is considered a reliable source, I will happily send the source to the editor who wants to add it in to Dawkins' page.Korvex (talk) 16:23, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Korvex, the problem with your edits and behavior to date, as my OP lays out, is that you have abused your editing privileges to use Wikipedia as a WP:SOAPBOX, to promote your view that the Bible presents history. Every one of your edits to religious-related article is about that one POV. This is not OK in WP -- WP:SOAPBOX is fundamental WP policy. This is what many WP:SPA accounts do, and they end up wasting everyone's time with endless wrangles on Talk pages. You are not here to build an encyclopedia, you are here to advocate for a specific point of view. That is the problem. Yes as you noted, everybody has a point of view but we ask everyone to set that aside when they log in, and edit neutrally. (This is discussed in the NPOV policy at WP:YESPOV) People who cannot do that, get topic banned. Please read those three wikilinks already in this post, along with the essays WP:ADVOCACY and WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:Civil POV pushing. You have been doing all those things. Drmies is hopeful that you can have the self-insight to see this and the follow-on hope that having seen it, you might be able to rectify it. So far you are not seeing the problem, nor acknowledging the problem, and I realize that I didn't link to any of those in my OP, hence my providing them here. Please do read them and reflect on them, and then read what people have written here again, and then reply here again. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 17:45, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
The fact that Korvex is using this forum to try and rehash the entire Petrovich controversy is exactly why this TBAN is appropriate. There have already been long discussions in which a number of editors have discussed why they dismiss Petrovich as not being WP:RELIABLE. Korvex wrote long angry essays, misrepresenting the situation repeatedly, and got nowhere in convincing anyone else to accept the reliability of Petrovich's book that he himself hadn't even seen yet and which has never been reviewed in any scholarly outlet. The fact that he would use this discussion of his behavior to begin beating that dead horse again is a perfect illustration of how he operates and continues to show no sign of moving in a more productive direction. He has said nothing new here that he hasn't already said, at much greater length and with a harsher tone, on the talk pages already discussed above. Alephb (talk) 19:11, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
To Alephb: I request you scroll up, considering I was absolutely not the one who brought up Petrovich. I quite literally said Petrovich had nothing to do with this discussion before responding. Again, I did not bring this up. I have admitted to the POV pushing already. Couldn't be bothered going through contribs to find the date and time, but this was obviously Korvex (talk · contribs). Hijiri 88 (やや) 06:22, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Does it look to anyone else like Korvex is now deliberately trolling this ANI thread? I "Ctrl+F"ed Petrovich's name, and unless someone else strategically misspelled it, Korvex was indeed the first to bring him up here. And even if that was not the case, mentioning Petrovich's name isn't even the problem; it's the continued arguing over it (which again, only Korvex has been doing). Hijiri 88 (やや) 06:22, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Proposed site ban[edit]

  • Based on my interactions with Korvex at Talk:The Exodus and here, I'm also going to have to propose and support an indefinite site ban. Korvex repeatedly makes statements of fact which are trivial to disprove, doesn't bother to provide sources for the vast majority of their claims, generally provides poor sources when they do, misinterprets those few acceptable sources they use, laces their comments with hyperbole, and continuously makes bad faith accusations against any and all who disagree with them. Those problems might be most apparent in one particular topic, but they are problems which have the potential to affect any article they work on. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:05, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • After looking into this a bit more I have to agree with MP above that a site ban is what's needed though I'd support a very broad TBAN as well. On the Ai page Korvex showed no understanding of BRD or consensus and somehow thought because they disagreed with an edit, and brought it to the talk page, that somehow gave them impunity to repeatedly revert against consensus. That talk page and the responses above also display that they have no grasp of what an RS is and resort to OR and SYNTH continuously. Just in the response to Drmies above there is a complete lack of understanding of what constitutes a scholarly RS. Petrovich had to resort to a Kickstarter campaign to get his book published and in no way shape or form do publishers do scholarly peer review. The OR about reading some discussion somewhere about it is meaningless. Korvex then links to the program for the ASOR annual meeting, not either of the actual journals ASOR publishes, but a program. Giving a presentation (among hundreds) at the ASOR annual meeting in no way confers reliability to the presenter or indicates that their views represent the scholarly consensus. Having other fringe pushing scholars (with no sources to back that up BTW) support a fringe view in no way confers reliability either. Petrovich has articles on Creation Ministries International's website claiming proof of Biblical inerrancy. His views are extremely fringe. That Korvex doesn't see that gives me little hope they will every understand WP sourcing requirements. Capeo (talk) 19:36, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Support site ban - I really don't think a topic ban, even if it covers multiple subjects, if going to be sufficient. My observation is that this editor appears to be incapable of editing in the manner that Wikipedia requires, and will do so in whatever topic he moves on to. His problem -- as is true with many FRINGErs and POV-pushers -- is in his mindset, and no topic ban is going to change that. For the benefit of the closer, my support for a site ban should be considered to be inclusive of support for topic bans for all the subjects noted here, should the site ban not become the consensus choice. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:26, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Support site ban mainly based on behaviour in this thread. Accuse other Wikipedians of "personal attacks" for pointing out that this or that scholar holds a fringe view is simply unacceptable. I also think that, if he ever wants to come back and appeal the site ban, he should still be subject to the topic ban, so consider me a support for both separately. Would that it were this easy to deal with all users who falsely and repeatedly claim All my claims have in fact been supported by references. at ANI. I guess some topics aren't as sexy as so-called biblical archeology. Hijiri 88 (やや) 07:01, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Support site ban - moved to this from my original topic ban support after seeing the further discussions - this should be inclusive of the topic bans. He continually ignores other editors and repeats the same arguments no matter what others have said, and as others have said above this behavior would simply spread to other areas if he remains as an editor. Doug Weller talk 14:15, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Strong support for TBAN or site ban-This is an obvious and blatant POV pusher who is not here to build an encyclopedia but to fight for the truth. Editors such as this drive away others who are more productive by wearing patience to the bone, imo it is ridiculous how long such editors are tolerated in these areas, no wonder actual scholars do not spend time on WP, who wants to deal with such timesinks over and over?Smeat75 (talk) 14:18, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Support site ban - for the reasons I previously stated in my support of a TBAN. At the time, I did not know the site ban was an option, so I supported the TBAN. Because of Korvex's history and his behavior here, I think a site ban would be an even better option, allowing us to focus on building an encyclopedia again, instead of having to repeatedly clear up the half-dozen misrepresentations / personal attacks per paragraph, multiplied across seemingly unending discussions, that we have seen so far from Korvex. Alephb (talk) 15:55, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I don't object Jytdog (talk) 18:17, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Support site ban mainly based on Korvex' inability/unwillingness to understand what is required in order for a source to be considered reliable. For instance, what is and isn't a "peer review" was explained in this discussion in early February and yet Korvex claims that he has "shown that (Petrovich's) book has been peer reviewed", basing his definition of a "peer review" on the same premise that was shown to be faulty in the previous discussion. I can't help thinking that Korvex doesn't want to hear about some rather central concepts, such as verifiability and consensus discussions, not to mention civility - and that is not something that can easily be confined by a topic ban. I have not ran across Korvex before, but have devoted some time to reading back on previous discussions, in particular the ones from the past few months, and so my opinion is based on that. --bonadea contributions talk 23:01, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nergaal is edit warring[edit]

Situation was handled at WP:ANEW; article was protected. Nothing more to be done for the time being. Neutralitytalk 04:04, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The user Nergaal is edit warring in the artikel Cultural racism. His arguments are political and his aim is to erase the article. He also says that he is acting according to AfD from 2012. This article was made 2 years ago and was up for speedy deletion but the admin that acted on it said this: "Speedy deletion declined. This has been translated from sv-wp and is different from the article previously deleted at AfD (CSDH)".

I do not want to be in a political discussion with the user about the article, but the user refers to it as being Political Correct and me as a PC police. Dnm (talk) 00:09, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Dnm refused to reply to any of my issues raised in the talk pages. To me he seems to have a clear agenda in all his edits. Nergaal (talk) 00:16, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Now it seems the user has target me in yet another article and starting to revert me on no grounds. The motivation for the deletion of the paragraf is on the talk page but he seems not interested in talkning just reverting me.

Besides the edit warring, he is very aggressive and unfriendly on the talk page as well. Dnm (talk) 00:21, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

What are the discretionary sanctions about? El_C 00:36, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Non-admin comment - Edit warriors are generally handled at WP:AN3, though uncivil behaviour is an ANI offense. However, this may not matter if admins are willing to address it here. DarkKnight2149 00:58, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
It already is at WP:AN3, I see ([10]). DarkKnight2149 01:02, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Dnm, please avoid forum shopping. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} 02:39, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

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Massive blocks being applied by admin User:Materialscientist[edit]

Yeah, no. Blackmane (talk) 04:16, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This admin is blocking hundreds of users, often quite severely, and without even adequate documentation for the specific offence. This needs to be reigned in

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&offset=&limit=500&type=block&user=Materialscientist&page=&tagfilter=&subtype=

There is over 100 blocks already today. This was removed because I was accused of not giving benefit of the doubt at to the administrators motivation. Those motivations and if he is acting in good faith is not an issue here. What is an issue here is the behaviour of blocking huge numbers of editors without adequate reasons or explanation.

This is an ugent matter and the community must investigate this abuse of authority. 166.84.1.2 (talk) 03:18, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Can you give examples where he blocked anyone "without adequate reasons for explanation" as you indicated above? Simply adding the user's block log history doesn't count as providing adequate evidence as you need to do (especially when you make accusations such as this)... ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 03:21, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
I'd like to point out @Materialscientist: was not notified of this ANI per policy, so I have pinged them. Second if you look at the block log the IP has linked it shows the IPs and users blocked by Material were Vandalism. So I have to say Material is doing their duties. Chris "WarMachineWildThing" Talk to me 03:33, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Um, IP, that is an administrator's job. Apparently you are one of the editors he has blocked. Which one? Please see WP:UNBLOCK instead of complaining here. Softlavender (talk) 03:34, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
I have to agree with Oshwah on this. There are Twitter-like system limits on how long an edit summary can actually be, so there's not a whole lot of room for admins to get into long context-heavy explanations of why a block is being imposed — if I'm reviewing another admin's block I can't just eyeball the edit summary, but need to investigate the blocked user's edit history to determine whether the thing they were blocked for was a blockable offense or not. So no, just linking to an admin's overall block log is not prima facie evidence of wrongdoing just because you call it that. You need to show details of one or more specific incidents you have an issue with, and reasons why your issue might be valid — because of the entries in Materialscientist's block log, they've been right in every single case that I've actually bothered to review. Bearcat (talk) 03:40, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

If I am reading this correctly IP is block evading as they posted as the IP then went back and changed the signature to their user name. User is on a 48 he block. Chris "WarMachineWildThing" Talk to me 04:01, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

WarMachineWildThing, that account hasn't been blocked since 2016, and was never blocked by Materialscientist. It could be he has (a) sock account(s) that is blocked. Softlavender (talk) 04:07, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Possibly a sock account, yes, or just a general bull in china shop rampage against the idea of anybody ever being blockable on here at all. Yeah, we're pretty much done with this "complaint". Bearcat (talk) 04:10, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

On-going deletions in the criticism section of WP:Fairphone[edit]

The criticism section of the Fairphone article is "cleaned up" from time to time with different rationales (no sources, invalid sources, "bs") and without any prior discussion on the talk pages.

Examples (there are more)

Could someone protect this paragraph to force the users to have a discussion on the talk pages first? Currently the talk pages are pretty blank. Also it would be nice to know if links to a forum that is maintained by the company can be used as a source or not.

I think this is an edit war between people that are disappointed by the project's information strategies and people that want to protect it for ideological reasons. Something in the middle would be nice for WP.

Thank you.

Note/disclose: My edits are affected by the changes, but also the changes of others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.192.73.113 (talk) 18:18, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

No, we cannot protect this paragraph. That's not an "I don't want to" — with our software it's impossible to protect just part of a page. If the disruption is bad enough (I don't have the time to review it right now), the whole page can be protected. Nyttend (talk) 18:34, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
I'll chime in and say that the forum posts are not reliable sources. If the complaints in the forums are notable, someone working for an independent, reliable publication will write about them. AniMate 18:42, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Forum posts cannot be used as sources. Please read our reliable sources guideline. --NeilN talk to me 18:44, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Thank you everyone for your replies. I understand the issue of valid sources. But I think especially for current tech good sources outside of forums is hard to find. You find early reviews, but seldom long time reports, as they would be needed to show long term issues. Fairphone mentions a few of the problems from the forum in their blog. Currently the Fairphone 1 has no replaceable parts available, badly outdated software and a known design issue with its usb port. People that will buy a used FP1, will not find this information quickly. But if it's against WPs rules to use multiple users reports in an official forum as a source, I will add their own blog posts as source. The problem is, that they are framed in a way that makes it nearly impossible to use them as good source.
Please treat those as primary sources, to be used in very limited circumstances. --NeilN talk to me 05:23, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

203.248.117.231 and other IP addresses, assigned to CJ Corporation, its subsidiaries, affiliates and other related companies[edit]

On 6 March 2017 at 10:40 (UTC), IPv4 user 203.248.117.231 vandalised the Rainbow Ruby article. According to [11] and KISA Whois, that IP address is assigned to CJ Systems, a subsidiary of the CJ Group along with CJ E&M (which co-produced Rainbow Ruby).

Similarly, on the same day at 9:17 (UTC), a registered user at the Korean Wikipedia, named Dalbit27, modified the article about the same programme to only feature CJ E&M and 38°C as the production companies. If the user is working for any of CJ Group companies, this is a serious breach of Wikipedia rules.

It shows that, if there is a mention unfavourably written about them, someone at CJ can just edit it out in an ungentlemanly manner. So, anyone in the IP addresses assigned to the CJ Group, its holding company CJ Corporation, and other related companies must be blocked from editing any article related to them and its products. Registering as a new user, as well as editing such articles as a logged in user from those addresses also must be blocked. We may not be able to block them from editing outside those IP addresses and even using VPN, but we must show them something.

P.S. I would understand if that user was writing aggressively in favour of that series (like 'That characters are so adorable that the UNESCO wanted to do something with it.'), but why did the user vandalised the article instead? JSH-alive/talk/cont/mail 07:31, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

  • Probably not going to happen Essentially, this is a complaint about undeclared COI editing. "ungentlemanly manner" is irrelevant because incivility is never going to be enough to preemptively TBAN someone, let alone a bunch of people one of whom behaved in an uncivil manner. If a bunch of Rainbow Ruby SPAs show up and start editing disruptively on English Wikipedia, maybe then it'll be worth, say, imposing indefinite extended-confirmed protection on the page, but I'm not seeing any evidence of that at the moment. Hijiri 88 (やや) 07:46, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Unjustified reverting of my edits[edit]

(non-admin closure) This is obviously a content dispute and should be dealt with on article talk pages or, better yet, in a centralized place such as the talk page of WikiProject Star Trek. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:31, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've been adding full names to the articles of several Star Trek characters.

Christopher Pike (Star Trek) - Christopher Richard Pike [1]
Hikaru Sulu - Hikaru Kato Sulu [2]
Jonathan Archer - Jonathan Beckett Archer [3]
Kathryn Janeway - Kathryn M. Janeway [4]
Leonard McCoy - Dr. Leonard Horatio McCoy [5]
Robert April - Robert Timothy April [6]
Sarek - S'chn T'gai Sarek [7]
Spock - S'chn T'gai Spock [8]
William Riker - William Thomas Thelonius Riker [9]

Each time I tried to add these names, most of them kept getting reverted. The first time, Materialscientist told me that my citations were incomplete, but after I added chapter numbers and page numbers to my citations, it got reverted anyway by different users.

Titodutta told me that he thinks "the article was better before I made the change", which is not a valid reason. Later on, he told me that my edit was "unclear" and he was "unable to verify it", which makes no sense because this information can be easily verified by doing a Google Books search.

Dr. K and SonOfThornhill told me that this information is non-canon, so it doesn't belong in the lead section of the article. When I asked them to show me a policy to back up their claims, I was ignored. I've checked Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and it doesn't mention the word canon at all, so there’s no reason for my changes to get reverted.

I ask that I be allowed to make these edits, since they are consistent with Wikipedia policy. --NetSpiker (talk) 00:55, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Carey, Diane. Final Frontier. Pocket Books, 1988, Hope and a Common Future
  2. ^ Asherman, Allan. Who's Who in Star Trek #2. DC Comics, 1987, page 33
  3. ^ Martin, Michael. A., Beneath the Raptor's Wing. Pocket Books, 2009, page 168
  4. ^ Graf, L.A. Caretaker. Pocket Books, 1995, Chapter 19
  5. ^ George, David. R., III. Provenance of Shadows. Pocket Books, 2006, page 532
  6. ^ Cox, Greg. Captain to Captain. Pocket Books, 2016, page 209
  7. ^ Hambly, Barbara. Ishmael. Pocket Books, 1985, Chapter 19
  8. ^ Hambly, Barbara. Ishmael. Pocket Books, 1985, Chapter 19
  9. ^ David, Peter. Q-Squared. Pocket Books, 1994, Last Stop: Chapter 4
The novels have never been considered canon in Star Trek(unlike Star Wars); different authors might use different middle/other names for characters. In my opinion the articles can certainly mention the names of the characters as given in different novels, but those novels are based on the characters as written for TV, so it is the names given in canon that should take precedence. 331dot (talk) 01:30, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
This is a content dispute. This does not belong here. ~ GB fan 01:39, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

@331dot: If different writers give different names, then both names should be listed in the opening sentence as has already been done in the article List of students at South Park Elementary: "Clyde Donovan (originally Clyde Goodman and briefly Clyde Harris)". Even in Star Trek canon, a character can be given two different names; Deanna Troi's father was called Ian Andrew Troi in one episode and Alex Troi in another. Besides, it doesn't matter what is and isn't canon since Wikipedia doesn't have a canon policy. Novels and TV episodes are equally valid.

@GB fan: I wasn't sure where this discussion belonged. Another user recommended that I come here. If it belongs somewhere else, can you please transplant it there? --NetSpiker (talk) 01:50, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Novels and TV are not equally valid because you don't have the characters in novels without the characters on TV. 331dot (talk) 01:53, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Endercase[edit]

(non-admin closure)There's no real consensus for sanctions, Endercase has accepted responsibility for what disruption they've cause, and they are getting the needed mentoring. There's nothing to gain from continuing this. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:22, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Endercase (talk · contribs)

This user is apparently WP:NOTHERE, and I don't frankly know what to do.

The account is old, but they made a tiny number of edits back before 2013, and came back about two months ago. It seems pretty likely that they were upset that a Twitter account got stealth-banned and came to Wikipedia to write up on the subject based on what was on Breitbart.com. They have spent basically all their time in the last few weeks fighting over whether Breitbart.com and other rightist fake news sites should be allowed as the sole source for factual claims and forum-shopping the same dispute to RSN, NPOVN and Jimbo's talk page (see [12]; also pinging User:JzG and User:Only in death). When said forum-shopping doesn't work out they post disruptive non-comments in multiple unrelated threads on the same noticeboards (no need for diffs; Ctrl+F their username on either of those noticeboards and it's pretty obvious; or just Ctrl+F "bold" on the currently live version of RSN).

When others disagree with them, they start posting these weird, sarcastic-looking attacks on them. (I've seen it myself[13][14] and also noted it happening to User:MjolnirPants.[15])

I'm thinking at least a TBAN from "RSN" or perhaps "right-wing news media" is in order, but at this point the user is practically begging to be blocked.

Hijiri 88 (やや) 00:13, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

  • We can now add canvassing to the list of disruptive things Endercase has got up to.[16][17][18][19] I literally wrote my entire response to DT below before it occurred to me that it was really weird for a random editor to have seen this thread and responded in good faith the way he did. I check his talk page and find that Endercase canvassed him, apparently because he's one of the very few people (the only person?) to say "I agree" and "I don't want you banned" to them. Hijiri 88 (やや) 06:25, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Please note this hidden comment with edit note "Clarifying why I pinged who I did, since I can totally see someong accusing me of assuming bad faith and hypocritical canvassing.".
If Endercase is canvassing, he sure is doing a bad job, since most of the editors didn't come here to defend him/her. It looks like a cry for help from a new user who doesn't know the rules and why he is in so much trouble. For a new user, it sure seems honest. When I asked him about mentoring, he said, "I agree I need a mentor". [20]. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:35, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
@David Tornheim: When someone adds an invisible clarification of a certain point so as to be left in the public record but not to clog up the thread, it kinda defeats the purpose when someone else comes along and adds a response to it that's longer than it, and quotes its edit summary in its entirety. I am only counting one canvassed editor who hasn't shown up yet -- do you mean that it was not votestacking since he canvassed one user who disagreed with him along with you and Nocturnalnow? That seems more like a deliberate attempt to seem like one is not votestacking, while disproportionately contacting editors on one side. Also, as I said when you quoted it below, the quote you provide was immediately followed by a clear statement of BATTLEGROUND mentality in which the users who oppose him were called a "Cabal": if you intend on mentoring Endercase, you need to stop downplaying/ignoring/denying the disruptive behaviour that needs improvement. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:56, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
The only thing I see in the diffs/link you provided is that a page-ban from RSN would be in order. He seems to be monopolizing things there and is not being very helpful (more to the contrary). Unless you provide specific diffs I don't yet see anything else actionable presented. If he is edit-warring on an article (e.g., Stealth banning), then report to WP:ANEW. Softlavender (talk) 04:48, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
@Softlavender: Given that a significant part of the problem is forum-shopping, I don't see how a narrow page ban would solve the problem. I said TBAN because, if he posts something on NPOVN or Jimbo's talk page that clearly belongs on RSN, then he could still be blocked if he were subject to a TBAN but ... well, actually if he were subject to PBAN then we could say he was wikilawyering his way around it and come right back here, but it still seems unnecessary. He also really doesn't appear to be HERE -- again, essentially all he's done since coming back is fight over Breitbart.com. (Even on Talk:Stealth banning, all his posts are essentially just him arguing for inserting material he read on Breitbart and InfoWars, or complaining about how he is not allowed directly cite them -- this (the bottom part) is a particular egregious example.) Hijiri 88 (やや) 06:03, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
That said, did you look at this diff? Or this one? These kind of remarks are not appropriate, and they are hardly atypical. Hijiri 88 (やや) 06:07, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
I looked at the three diffs and the two links you provided. The comments seem pretty standard stuff -- except for on the RSN (excess posting, excess repetition, and idiosyncratic interpretations). You haven't provided any evidence of anything else. To make a case on ANI, you need to provide probative diffs. Softlavender (talk) 06:26, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
I dont think there is enough yet. But I also think its just a matter of time. Generally their noticeboard (and I am including Jimbo's talkpage here as well) posts quickly devolve into soapboxing when people disagree. What really needs to happen is that an uninvolved editor needs to close their threads sooner rather than later when they go off target. RSN/NPOV boards are for asking specific questions about specific issues with articles, not trying to convince people of an idiosyncratic interpretation of policy. If they want to soapbox on Jimbo's page, well thats different. They can join all the others there. Or an admin can take 5 minutes to explain to them that if they want to discuss the policy, do it at the policy talkpage instead of noticeboards. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:58, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I think Endercase will read carefully what everybody says and will adjust their participation in order to get along and contribute better. I'm sure they want to contribute and just need a little more time and experience. Nocturnalnow (talk) 02:49, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Nocturnalnow was also canvassed. I don't have the time or energy to figure out why right now; unlike with DT, it didn't apparently come right below the words "I don't want you banned". Hijiri 88 (やや) 06:40, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Endercase is accomplishing nothing but the waste of time and energy by defending indefensible sources of lies and deception. When people point this out, they wiki-lawyer and whinge. That does seem to smell of NOTHERE. --Orange Mike | Talk 03:01, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Orangemike was also canvassed, but clearly it didn't go as planned. Hijiri 88 (やや) 06:40, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
  • No Action Endercase is a very new user, and the bigger problem is that the accuser (Hijiri88) has failed to assume good faith with unfair accusations such as WP:NOTHERE, WP:SPA, and suggestion the new editor is "editing Wikipedia because you are upset that your Twitter account got stealth-banned". Hijiri88 interrogates him/her about whether s/he is using multiple accounts [21][22]. (See entire discussion.). Hijiri88 also accuses the new editor of "a fallacious attempt to get users to say indirectly that Breitbart is reliable in certain circumstances". [23]. If anything the problem is the accuser. Perhaps an iBan from Hiriji88 -> Endercase is in order.
I have recently encountered Endercase at WP:RS/N here. It was obvious to me the editor is new and does not understand many of the rules we live by here, citing things like ignore the rules, like there are "no rules". Admittedly, s/he got a little defensive but cooled down when I treated him/her with respect, unlike others who were not so friendly. There is no reason to WP:BITE new users like this.
I have written about this problem at WikiProject Editor Retention here.. In fact, this particular case was on my mind as I wrote it.
Endercase did reach out to me on my talk page. --David Tornheim (talk) 05:56, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
David Tornheim was canvassed. Endercase chose to message him about this discussion for some reason, likely that he had written "I don't want you banned" several days earlier. David Tornheim is one of the only users to agree with Endercase in one of their content disputes, and to have partly benefitted from Endercase's disruptive "non-comments" I mentioned above. Hijiri 88 (やや) 06:31, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Self-collapse. This long response was written because I (Hijiri88) have a tendency to take AGF to the extreme, and didn't occur to me until after I'd written it that Dave might have been canvassed.
@David Tornheim: Umm ... what? Endercase is a very new user The account was created in 2011. It came back recently after a long absence and has done nothing but fight over our sourcing standards. s/he got a little defensive I'll say. [Points to diffs of sarcastic attacks further up] Perhaps an iBan from Hiriji88 -> Endercase is in order. Not going to happen. I asked, in a fairly polite manner, if Endercase had used any other accounts, and was met with a string of sarcastic personal attacks. Plus, one-way IBANs don't work and are rarely resorted to except perhaps in the extremest of cases, as ArbCom explicitly told me a little while back. There is no reason to WP:BITE new users like this. Again, if I thought Endercase was a new user I would have applied BITE appropriately, but the account is six years old, and is behaving very precociously on multiple noticeboards (including Jimbo's talk page). Admittedly, some of his recent behaviour[24] does make me reconsider my earlier opinion that he was socking, perhaps his main account was blocked, and he went back to his earlier account. In that case, perhaps he could be considered a newby, and if so I apologize for BITing. However, this does not excuse his continued disruption on multiple fora, after numerous users called him out and told him what he was doing wrong. Your opinion seems to be somewhat similar to OID's (I dont think there is enough yet) except that, for whatever reason, you threw in a string of random jabs at the messenger. Seriously, if a one-way IBAN (something ArbCom refused to do even after a year long hounding campaign), what would you do with all the other users, including at least two admins and one long-term user whose contact with Endercase was essentially limited to thread you link above, who said the exact same thing as me? Your comment seems to be more about your being just about the only one so far to have agreed with Endercase on something he said on RSN than about the actual issues. Which no doubt is why he canvassed you.[25] Hijiri 88 (やや) 06:25, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Stricken as redundant. Hijiri 88 (やや) 08:48, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

^This is worth a read, because it seems to reinforce what I said. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:48, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Update: Since I wrote the above "No Action", I suggested to Endercase that s/he seek a mentor. His/her response was "I agree I need a mentor." [26]. I would be okay with closing this with the recommendation Endercase get a mentor and Hijiri88 (and all of us experienced editors) be gentle and less accusatory to new users. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:48, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
@David Tornheim: Your reading of that long comment is somewhat optimistic: the portion you quote was immediately followed by I appear to have upset a very active Cabal of users. Anyway, how would you feel about a set-term (three months? six months? one year?) TBAN on right-wing news media and/or RSN combined with mentoring for the same period of time, subject to review on completion of said set term? If, as you say, this is not a NOTHERE case, that kind of solution being effective would be a pretty surefire way to prove your case. Conversely, anyone who is HERE and recognizes that their activities have caused disruption would have no reason not to accept such a narrow restriction with a definite end date to look forward to. Hijiri 88 (やや) 08:28, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
@Hijiri88: I spent some time on a reply on your proposed remedy (and am a bit warn out on this whole discussion). I do not think he has been disruptive, so he should not be punished with a tban. I think he is new and *confused* about what is and is not okay, and believes he is right and argues his case.
He--like probably a large portion of Trump supporters here in the U.S.--probably does not understand why editors on Wikipedia don't consider Breitbart or InfoWars to be good WP:RS. It's our job to make it clear to him that there is some consensus that establishes that. When another editor said Breitbart was no good, they provided no evidence for it, so Endercase went to RS/N to ask whether we really do ban specific sources (especially sources he thinks are good). His reaction makes perfect sense to me--exactly what a new user would do, one who doesn't understand how things work here. Obviously he didn't know about the banning of Daily Mail. I believe this problem is going to keep coming up, so we need an RfC or something like that to point to that says Breitbart (and InfoWars) are generally not good WP:RS. I would vote in favor of it, if such an RfC is held. Maybe I'll make one myself.
I have seen similar behavior over sourcing, e.g. Talk:Breitbart_News#Fake_News_being_passed_off_as_sources.
As for a remedy: Mentoring is fine, and perhaps a warning about not advancing specific sources as good WP:RS. If he stops advancing Breitbart and Infowars, I believe your main issue goes away. I think he might begrudgingly comply. We could ask him if he will do it voluntarily. --David Tornheim (talk) 11:12, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I do not think he has been disruptive Only because you are choosing to ignore all the disruption he's been causing. I think he is new and *confused* about what is and is not okay, and believes he is right and argues his case But how do you propose we deal with that? Are you offering to mentor him? If so: you say you don't think he has already been disruptive, so how would your mentoring prevent further disruption? so we need an RfC or something Maybe. But won't Endercase keep complaining with each new "formal ban" that it should be listed somewhere? If he stops advancing Breitbart and Infowars, I believe your main issue goes away. Actually, my main issue is the incivility (as I said in the commented off section above explaining why I pinged MP). I think editors who get their information about the world from Breitbart but know better than to directly cite it on Wikipedia are just as dangerous to the integrity of the project as less tactful users like Endercase, but they are obviously very difficult to root out. Actually it doesn't matter where they got their opinions: any editor who adds their opinions to articles and look for sources retroactively, rather than read sources and write what they see in the sources is a problem (ask Nishidani or Curly Turkey for the worst example in my memory of that -- I don't wanna go into detail). Endercase has actually been showing signs that even if you or some other mentor could get him to understand that citing Breitbart is out of the question, he'll just become one of those editors. And since I'm somewhat pessimistic about the Encyclopedia, I think that's the best we can hope for in a lot of cases. Content-wise. But he would still need to drop the sarcasm, ABF, canvassing... and anyone who doesn't recognize that he has been doing these things is not the right one to teach them not to. Hijiri 88 (やや) 12:44, 11 March 2017 (UTC)


  • Notice: I refer to this AN/I at the talk page of WikiProject Editor Retention here.--David Tornheim (talk) 07:12, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Note: I don't actually believe that Endercase is a new or inexperienced user, nor that we should treat them as such. New and inexperienced users do not hang out at RSN proffering advice, nor do they quote Wikipedia:Viewing and restoring deleted pages [27]. I don't know what is the appropriate action here, since Hijiri has failed to make a case by failing to provide diffs substantiating the claims in his OP (not the first time this has happened, which makes for a lot of wasted community time). I do think Endercase should at the very least be kept on a very short leash, and be banned from RSN and probably from reliable-source discussions in general. Softlavender (talk) 07:58, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
No mos. I actually kinda regret not providing more evidence specifically in the form of diffs in my OP comment. Not that it was actually necessary or appropriate. Just that I could have prevented this massive! CREEPy, wikilawyerish tangent about what kind of evidence is preferable. No one cares anymore. Everyone can see what is going on. I think the evidence I presented upfront was enough. Others disagree. Whether I am right or wrong, I apologize for my choice having led to this long distraction from the subject of this thread. Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:53, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
@Softlavender: I actually decided not to post this earlier as it might be bludgeoning to reply to you more than twice before anyone else had commented, but there is actually no obligation to provide evidence specifically in the form of diffs, and in this case diffs would not have been helpful as it would have simply multiplied the number of links that need to be clicked. Endercase posted the same comment in half a dozen RSN threads, and he was the only one to use that particular word on the page, so linking the permalink for the then-current version of RSN and saying Ctrl+F either "bold" or "Endercase" was actually better than diffs. Similarly, the claim that the user is NOTHERE cannot be demonstrated by individual cherry-picked diffs; I linked their contribs, where it is blatantly clear that all they've done for the last several weeks is argue on various fora about Breitbart and InfoWars. I provided diffs where it seemed appropriate (specific snipes at me and MP). It's really not clear what "claims in [my] OP" you want further evidence for. I guess I could have (should have?) linked this to demonstrate that more than half his mainspace and article talk edits are to the same article, which is the one he tried to cite Breitbart and InfoWars on, and his favourite single page in any namespace is RSN, where all of his comments are either weird non-comments or about rightist fake news. Hijiri 88 (やや) 08:19, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
You provided a link to RSN with instructions to search for his username, which was instructive, and as I stated above I feel he should be banned from that noticeboard and probably from all discussions of reliable sources. But you did not provide diffs substantiating any of your other claims. The three diffs you provided show nothing actionable, and they do not mention Breitbart. Do not expect other editors to search through hundreds of contributions to find the diffs you should have provided. Softlavender (talk) 08:40, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Softlavender, could you tell me where I was told that I am obliged to provide my evidence in the form of diffs? Or specify a particular claim I made that wasn't supported by evidence? I am sorry for not providing specific diff for the Breitbart claim. I assumed you would look at the talk pages of the articles in question and see that when he says "my sources" and the like, Breitbart is what is referring to. Here are some diffs where, either in the edit summary or his comment text, he specifically names Breitbart.[28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42] It also appears on his userpage under the spelling "Brietbart". It is undated, so it would be a massive timesink to find the exact diff. Currently, "Breitbart" (and "Brietbart") is only used on RSN by users responding to Endercase, but the rest of us (me, OID, Fyddlestix...) are not just putting words in his mouth: he is unambiguously referring to Breitbart, and to a lesser extent InfoWars, when he talks about "his sources" and "banned sources". Hijiri 88 (やや) 09:10, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
The very first instruction at the top of this page is "Please include diffs to help us find the problem you are reporting." And it doesn't mean 20 diffs, but enough to adequately demonstrate each point you are stating. Softlavender (talk) 11:51, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Please include. Not "you must include". It's a guideline, not a hard rule. Evidence in other forms is frequently enough, and sometimes (as in this case) preferable. Hijiri 88 (やや) 12:44, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
It's not a guideline, it's an instruction. There's nothing about the word "please" that makes the instruction conditional. It doesn't say "may" or "maybe". Nfitz (talk) 13:52, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
@Nfitz: Lots of ANI threads don't require evidence specifically in the form of diffs. The one immediately below this one didn't provide a single diff because anyone could click on the blue link and see what was being referred to. The one that led to this guy getting banned said, essentially, "Look at this person's user page -- it's Nazi propaganda" and if I recall correctly included no diffs. In this case, the only thing I didn't provide specific evidence for was "This looks to me like NOTHERE, but I'm not sure how to deal with it"; there are a bunch of ways to recognize NOTHERE, and most ANI regulars are quite familiar with at least some of them. Don't wikilawyer me into requesting that the wording of the instruction be amended to take cases like these into account and say something like Please include evidence (for example, in the form of diffs) to help us. That's WP:CREEP and really shouldn't be necessary. Hijiri 88 (やや) 14:06, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

─────────────────────────Although, I have seen cases where no diffs were required, I think much time might have been saved in the case if more diffs were provided in the filing, rather than expecting us to try and figure out exactly what Hijiri88 contends is "disruptive". I didn't understand what "CTRL+F Bold" meant, even though I use CTRL+F all the time. Providing the diffs of such a search would have saved me time. I hope Hijiri88 listens to the concerns raised here and take the message that if s/he is going to file something like this in the future, to please provide diffs and evidence.

Also, last night I started looking at the many diffs above provided to Softlavender. The claim was "either in the edit summary or his comment text, he specifically names Breitbart." Many of them came from a SECTION named Breitbart. That's not him "naming Breitbart", that's just him posting in the section containing the name Breitbart. A single link to the section saying, "here he is defending Breitbart"--if that is true--is sufficient. I feel much time could have been saved if the original filing had focused on diffs of "disruptive" behavior or behavior advocating Breitbart, InfoWars or some other right-wing site as WP:RS. It took me a while to understand that the advancement of right-wing sites was really the main concern, rather than argumentative behavior. --David Tornheim (talk) 21:51, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

@David Tornheim: I provided all the evidence I thought was necessary. Everyone here except you recognizes I mean by "disruptive", and the only reason you don't is because you are ignoring all the specific evidence presented. Softlavender also recognizes the problem, and was just being pedantic about the difference between "diffs" and "evidence, in the form of diffs where appropriate". If you sincerely think, after all of this, that my main problem is the advancement of right-wing sites when I specifically told you above, in the comment that you pointedly ignored for some reason, that [a]ctually, my main issue is the incivility. I'm still waiting for a response to the question I posed in that same comment: if you don't recognize that Endercase's behavioir has been disruptive (I do not think he has been disruptive), how would your mentoring prevent further disruption? Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:34, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Hijiri, several people have informed you that you did not provide diffs adequate to substantiate your several various claims in your OP. This has happened before with your ANI filings, and as it has now, it merely wastes everyone's time (which you are continuing to do by trying to prolong your self-justification, bickering, and wikilawyering). Now you can either take that information to heart and improve the next time you feel the need to file at ANI, or not and waste more people's time. But please stop harping on it here. Softlavender (talk) 04:43, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
You still have not identified the "several various claims" I didn't substantiate. But why on earth are we still talking about this? If you still want diffs for something I said, I'll provide them within his collapse template. This is just distracting at this point. Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:53, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
@Softlavender: A user with 328 edits is not a new user??? [43]. When I was a new user, if someone told me, "You can't use this source anywhere"--especially if I believed it was a good source, I would have looked for a general place to air a grievance about such a banning of a particular source, or banning of any source. (for the record, I don't think Breitbart is a reliable source, but I know there are people out there that think infowars and Breitbart are the only sources that have "real" news ). The way he aired it and then posted on WP:NPOV shows he didn't know that it was inappropriate to post at that notice board. He obviously didn't know about the banning of Daily Mail either or he wouldn't have asked the question. We are supposed to assume good faith, so these claims he is not a new user (or has multiple accounts) need some evidence. I provided evidence he is a new user. Is it guilty until proven innocent? --David Tornheim (talk) 08:50, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
New and inexperienced users do not hang out at RSN proffering advice, nor do they quote Wikipedia:Viewing and restoring deleted pages [44]. -- Softlavender (talk) 08:54, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
New and inexperienced users do not hang out at RSN proffering advice. Sure they do. I did the exact same thing when I had fewer than 1,000 edits under my belt, offering opinions at six different RS/N sections in a 24-hour period two years ago, until a couple of admins basically told me to butt out. I was a bit shocked, believing that Wikipedia was completely egalitarian and everyone could comment anywhere, regardless of experience, especially when I saw certain editors making so many comments in so many places.
It is a rookie mistake to be citing things like WP:BOLD and WP:IGNORE the way he did--not disruptive but naive.
As for Wikipedia:Viewing and restoring deleted pages, who knows how he learned of it--possibly he just did a search because he didn't understand why some of us were talking about deleting an inconsequential article (WER_v_REW)) that had inadequate WP:RS. Incidentally that article has nothing to do with Breitbart, Infowars or alt right ideology. He is obviously defending an inclusionist approach. I saw no evidence of disruption. He did argue with others, when experienced editors like myself argued with him. Nothing strange about that either: New editors who think they are right will argue, just like experienced editors do. I did the same thing when I started. --David Tornheim (talk) 09:59, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Well, whether he is new or not (and I don't believe he is), he is borderline trolling in my opinion, does not seem to be here to build an encyclopedia, and needs to be reined in. I think a topic ban on reliable source discussions, broadly construed, would at least be a good start. That would give him a chance to cut out the game-playing and demonstrate he can edit constructively. Otherwise, I'm not sure anyone wants to babysit him and if he fails to act maturely he probably is heading away from Wikipedia, so to speak. Softlavender (talk) 11:51, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I did the exact same thing when I had fewer than 1,000 edits under my belt That's one way of looking at it. Another would be that you had made over 400 edits, over several years, before your first edit to the Wikipedia namespace. Again, though, it doesn't matter to my argument whether Endercase is actually a new editor. BITE is an essay, and is subordinate to various policies (such as AGF). Once a newbie has rejected friendly and politely-offered advice from multiple parties and kept doubling down, apparently because of a firm belief that Breitbart and InfoWars are not unreliable sources, they should no longer be treated with kid gloves: editors who refuse to abide by consensus, either by deliberate or accidental failure to recognize the consensus, should either be given a limited sanction to allow them to demonstrate that they are at least capable of contributing constructively, or in extreme cases with a block. Incidentally that article has nothing to do with Breitbart, Infowars or alt right ideology. In other words, it represents only a tiny (even negligible) portion of his contributions so far. More than half of his mainspace and talk edits are related to the two articles he is insisting on citing Breitbart/InfoWars on. In second place is the two Arianism articles he briefly edited immediately after returning. I have not looked at the content of those edits, but one would need to be pretty ignorant of right wing ideology to think that they have nothing to do with it. (I never said "alt right"; my first interaction with Endercase was the FRC thread, about a Christian fundamentalist, anti-LGBT hate group.) Nothing else even comes close to these three. Hijiri 88 (やや) 12:44, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
FYI Arianism is nothing to do with Aryanism --79.71.0.201 (talk) 14:43, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
@79.71.0.201: I know that. Read my comment again. I specifically said that I wasn't talking about "alt right" or "Nazism". Arianism is associated with right wing politics because conservative Christians (Christian right) frequently associate various groups with whom they disagree with "Arianism", and lump secular scholarship of early Christianity in with that Da Vinci Code-based misconceptions, most of which center around the Arian controversy and the Council of Nicaea. It's super-off-topic and would potentially violate BLP if I posted it in detail, but there's one particular conservative scholar I'm thinking of; but it's definitely not limited to him. The topics of "Arianism" and "Gnosticism" can very easily be tied to the Christian right. As I said, I haven't looked at the content of Endercase's specific edits to the topic, so I am not judging the edits specifically: merely pointing out that the fact that he edited those pages is not evidence that he has been contributing positively to topics that aren't pet topics for the American right. Hijiri 88 (やや) 15:57, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Hijiri88 needs a long topic ban from American Politics for comments like "Breitbart.com and other rightist fake news sites" and "the FRC thread, about a Christian fundamentalist, anti-LGBT hate group" which suggest that Hijiri88 is incapable of cooperating with editors with different points of view. Breitbart is a real news source that meets WP:RS. A distaste for its political stances (WP:IDLI) is not grounds for disallowing it or comparing it to Infowars. Anyone who tries to enforce partisan purity on Wikipedia should be blocked as WP:NOTHERE. 71.198.247.231 (talk) 15:50, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Woah. Seriously? Why would I be TBANned from a topic I have barely edited, not once disruptively. Also, who on earth are you? Have you and I interacted before? Your IP range is unfamiliar... Hijiri 88 (やや) 16:00, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
71.198.247.231, if you wish to troll ANI and ask for bans for users in good standing, kindly log in to your account to do it. Bishonen | talk 17:44, 11 March 2017 (UTC).
@MjolnirPants: I would be inclined to agree that mentoring could solve this problem, but I have my doubts as to David's ability or willingness to address the problem. I have serious doubts about mentoring by David under these circumstances: if disruption continues as before, will David just ignore it as he has been? The "mistakes" could be forgiven as a thing of the past, and even the fact that many of them clearly weren't mistakes overlooked, if there were any evidence that it wouldn't continue. If an editor who had disagreed with Endercase, or had at least acknowledged the problem, were offering to do the mentoring it would be one thing, since (if the IDHT behaviour continued, even toward the mentor) they would likely get frustrated and report back that mentoring wasn't working. David, though, looks set to just ignore all further disruption and only offer Endercase advice on how to successfully get away with his disruptive behaviour. If someone who recognized the problem were offering to fix it ... wait, a funny thought just occurred to me ... Hijiri 88 (やや) 05:12, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
@Hijiri88:I understand your concerns, however I'm not too worried about the disruption it could cause. A failure to get the point while under mentorship would result in a fairly quick block or TBAN. Look at it in terms of a risk-reward balance: There's a substantial chance that it would result in a small amount of disruption, and a substantial chance that it would solve the problem while adding another useful editor to the project. Even if the balance is in favor of the risk, the equation points to taking the chance as the best option. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:39, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Shit. I only just saw this now. Either your ping didn't work, or I was distracted when I clicked on the notification. You actually make a fairly good point about A failure to get the point while under mentorship would result in a fairly quick block or TBAN. is right on the money, and I'm now kind of regretting all-but withdrawing my support for David doing the mentoring. I still don't think he's qualified, but allowing other users to shoot themselves in the foot is a much better idea than taking the gun off them so I can shoot myself in the foot. Put simply: I don't want to take responsibility if/when whatever happens doesn't work. There's theoretically enough support below for a TBAN (if the canvassed and hounding !votes are disregarded), so if a closer wants to go that way I think they probably could, but at this point I think a likely outcome is "Mentor, by whoever wants to take a shot at it". Hijiri 88 (やや) 07:11, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Strong warning and short leash is sufficient here. I wasn't canvassed, and am commenting because of a not very positive interaction I had with this editor at WP:RS. If Endercase is sincerely wanting to contribute, then he'll learn and change his behaviors. If not, then leash should be short. First Light (talk) 02:41, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
  • JzG and Orangemike have both voiced very strong opinions but have not !voted on the two proposals below. I am pinging them to invite them to do so. Softlavender (talk) 00:08, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
    I'm pessimistic (how much rope in enough?), but not quite enough so to obstruct either proposal. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:27, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
    Very little, in my opinion. First Light (talk) 09:54, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Proposal: Mentorship[edit]

As suggested above, I also think the mentor idea is a good one. Although in most ways I am not the most qualified, I would be willing to act as User:Endercase's mentor, as long as he doesn't expect me to be available or on Wikipedia for over an hour a day. Although it is counterintuitive for me to be his mentor, I think I can guide him into compliance and non time wasting way to edit and contribute overall without pissing people off. Nocturnalnow (talk) 16:46, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Nocturnalnow, respectfully, I do not think you are appropriate or qualified to be the mentor here. I say that glancing at your contribs and your edits on, say Marie Le Pen, and elsewhere via your former account. And also because Endercase canvassed you into this conversation. The mentor needs to be a longterm Wikipedia editor in good standing with very clear NPOV. I think a TBan from RS discussions and from mentions of Breitbart and InfoWars would be better than mentoring, but if mentoring is chosen, I personally do not think it should be you. Softlavender (talk) 23:40, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
ok, Softlavender, thank you for your respectful wording. I accept your observation in this regard and withdraw my offer of mentoring. Nocturnalnow (talk) 00:03, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Also, my support was not contingent on any specific mentor for Endercase. I was not actually offering to be an "official" sanctioned mentor, even though several editors for some reason read it that way. Someone with more experience might be more appropriate. I have given him advice and feedback when I met him at WP:RS/N, and since he wanted more, I have continued. Others with similar or more experience have given advice too: Hijiri88 and MjolnirPants. There is also the option of his seeking further help at:
If any of my advice is a problem, let me know and I will stop: There are plenty of other things I could work on.
My biggest concern so far is that he is not as willing to defer to experience as would be appropriate for a new user. I don't know of any rule that behavior is breaking or how best to address that. I don't think banning him from WP:RS/N is the appropriate solution, since (1) he has already been willing to back off of WP:RS/N (2) that specific forum is not the main issue with his behavior: It seems to me more an issue of attitude and need for more respect for experience. Wikipedia does present itself in a very egalitarian way, with many egalitarian principles and policies, but I think most of us with experience know that experience makes a big difference in how seriously what you say will be taken. Is there some policy somewhere about respect or deference for experience? I've never seen any... --David Tornheim (talk) 02:20, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment from someone not opposed to mentoring, in theory I still think mentoring from someone who thinks there has been no disruption -- indeed is still officially trying to shift the blame onto those disputing with Endercase, as David's first comment still has not been stricken -- is not going to help the situation at all. If David was willing to admit that there is a problem, or if someone else who was willing to admit there is a problem offered to do the mentoring, it would be another matter. Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:12, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Note that I'm still waiting on a response to my [Y]ou say you don't think he has already been disruptive, so how would your mentoring prevent further disruption? above. Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:24, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't think his behavior was 'disruptive'. But I also think he made a number of errors, because he is new and does not understand the rules fully, which he freely admits below. Rather than be defiant and admit no wrongdoing here, he admits he needs help and has made mistakes. That's what I would like to see personally. He wants to learn and follow the rules. I have already spent quite a lot of time on both my talk page and his giving him advice. He asks good questions. --David Tornheim (talk) 02:57, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
@David Tornheim: Sarcastic, uncivil comments and laughing at other editors in edit summaries are not "errors". If mentoring does not prevent further disruption of this sort, then mentoring alone will not solve the problem. The "mistakes" you say he has admitted to are mistakes others attempted to correct both before and since you, and he has refused to listen. He is only now admitting that he made "mistakes" because he is facing sanctions, and there's no reason to believe that if those sanctions don't pass he will not go back to not listening. You are the only one who thinks his behaviour wasn't disruptive, and it's increasingly obvious that this is because you are the only one to agree with him on the substance of one of his posts (apparently the only one you read). If you don't recognize what is wrong with his behaviour up to this point, then how can mentoring by you correct it going forward? If any other editor were offering to mentor him, or if you were willing to admit that his behaviour was disruptive, I would assume that mentoring would be a good first step, since if the behaviour continued the mentor would be the first to notice and get worn out by it, but you don't seem to even understand what he has been doing wrong. Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:56, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Sarcastic, uncivil comments and laughing at other editors in edit summaries are not "errors". Hijiri, I agree with this statement, but there is an argument to be made, here. Specifically, that it remains a possibility that a cursory reading of WP:RS, a misunderstanding in which WP:NPA is taken to be the whole of our policy on civility, and a few relatively minor misunderstandings about fallacies could explain the response to me that triggered this thread. To such a person, who felt that Breitbart met our RS guidelines, that any sort of interaction that didn't involve insults was acceptable and that (for example) dismissing an argument as "ridiculous" is an ad-hominem and that "argument" on WP is synonymous with "negotiation", one could see how such a response could be made in relatively good faith. Personally, I don't think that is the case here, as that requires a comedy of errors on a level that would virtually mandate a WP:CIR block. I think, in this case, it's generally more constructive to assume they acted in bad faith, but are capable of extending good faith. If we're wrong, we'll find out soon enough, and if we're right, we get a shiny new editor. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:42, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
@MjolnirPants: Yes, I agree with just about everything you said in the above comment, but at the time I posted the comment to which you were responding, I was of the opinion that David mentoring would be a bad idea, not that mentoring itself (as opposed to formal sanctions) was a bad idea. At the time you posted your response, I had already changed my opinion on this point, since I figured that if David's mentoring was supplemented with my own it would not be a problem. (That's why I didn't initially reply to you.) But now (after the discussion on JzG's talk page and a bit of my own research based thereon) I have gone back to thinking that, whether or not David is theoretically capable of offering advice to new editors, he probably shouldn't, given his own sketchy (and, more importantly, recent) edit history. Since my offer to do the mentoring is still on the table, I haven't gone completely back to where I was two days ago, so ... I guess take this for what it's worth? Whether Endercase would be open to me and only me doing the mentoring (and whether I have the time/energy to take on the full responsibility) remains to be seen. Hijiri 88 (やや) 06:46, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose of David Tornheim as mentor. In my view, David has serious issues of his own. Guy (Help!) 07:46, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment So ... yeah ... when I questioned JzG on the specific details behind the above comment, some interesting points came up. David Tornheim was TBANned from a discretionary sanctions area last July and within a week was blocked for violating the ban.[45][46] After being blocked, he disappeared from the Encyclopedia, before reemerging 49 days ago.[47] Essentially, David appears to have engaged in IDHT regarding his own ban and almost immediately violated it, and he has less than two months of edits to his name since that incident. This all makes his apparent refusal to accept my compromise proposal, or to strike his earlier attacks against me further up this thread, difficult to interpret as good faith "not having gotten around to it yet". I of course believe in second chances for users who were blocked and briefly left the project, and particularly for those who have been TBANned in the distant past (I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't), but should such users be mentoring younger problem accounts? David Tornheim's capacity to mentor a new editor who has been (perhaps inadvertently) causing disruption is definitely in question. I dunno: am I still "failing to assume good faith", having just noticed this background four days too late? I'm still up for mentoring, for whatever it's worth, but I'm wondering if Endercase should be explicitly told not to treat David as a mentor if he wants to avoid a TBAN. Hijiri 88 (やや) 05:40, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Note that I have no problem with David as a person, and have not reviewed his edits outside this thread (so I have no idea what I would think of him as an editor). His above unstricken personal remarks about me are not really a concern for me, and I don't think he should face any specific sanctions for not striking them and not accepting a compromise proposal whose terms (per my own stricken support for the TBAN) I have already technically met. The above comment only means that I am again beginning to question whether he is the right person to mentor Endercase. Hijiri 88 (やや) 05:50, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
David is a perfectly nice chap, but mentorship requires someone who unambiguously "gets it", and I really don't think he does. His input would IMO be more likely to lead Endercase astray. Guy (Help!) 07:29, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Proposal: Topic ban[edit]

I propose a topic ban from RS discussions, broadly construed, and from mentions or references to Breitbart and InfoWars. Softlavender (talk) 19:40, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

  • Support, as proposer. This solution is much easier and more doable than mentorship (which is time-consuming, unpredictable, and unwieldy, and rarely works with disruptive editors who already know an enormous amount about Wikipedia). It will allow Endercase to contribute productively to Wikipedia however he likes, and demonstrate that he is here to build an encyclopedia. -- Softlavender (talk) 19:40, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Support Regardless of whether mentoring happens, it's clear that nothing will be gained from the editor continuing to discuss those two sources and continuing to post on RSN. In a few months' time, once the mentor (David, if he ever gets around to explaining what he meant above) determines that the time has come, the ban can be appealed. Hijiri 88 (やや) 02:27, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
I stand by the above, especially in light of my own offer below to mentor Endercase. I think a break from RS discussions, and generally staying the hell away from citations of Breitbart and InfoWars, would do Endercase good, and would advise him thus if he accepts my offer of mentorship. Once I think (or perhaps David and I agree) that the time has come for him to contribute constructively to RS discussions, then I would support lifting the ban. Hijiri 88 (やや) 05:27, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Support withdrawn pending agreement to my proposition on David's talk page. Both David and I agree that Endercase should refrain from both the issues covered by the proposed TBAN, and if Endercase is really serious about mentoring then the result is the same wiout a formal ban.At his point I just want this mess to be over. Hijiri 88 (やや) 22:54, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Note that I am now neutral on the formal ban (assuming David Tornheim's accepts my request on his talk page), but this is based on the assumption that Endercase takes the advice of me or David or both of us, which would have about the same effect, at least in the short term, as a formal ban. I think, if mentoring works, the formal ban would be redundant for as long as it would have been necessary. I have not changed my !vote to "oppose". Hijiri 88 (やや) 09:15, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm withdrawing my withdrawal. My offer to mentor Endercase still stands, and if Endercase accepts my mentoring and listens to my advice, then the effect would be the same as a formal ban. Having a ban on one's record is not a "punishment", and David Tornheim (whose own recent history with bans is apparently somewhat checkered) is wrong to claim this. The fact that both users offering to mentor Endercase have advised him to take a self-ban on these two narrow topics means that formalizing the ban would just mean that, if Endercase (flagrantly and deliberately) refused to follow said users' advice, he would be blocked for doing so. The only effect of not formalizing the ban would be to allow Endercase to ignore the advice of his mentor(s). Note that the reason I'm re-supporting the ban proposal is to allow the closer to count my !vote as what it is rather than what it would be in ideal world. If one discounts the two canvassed !votes (both of whom seems to be under the mistaken impression that bans are meant to "punish" or "censure" users rather than prevent disruption) and the one hounding !vote, the number of "support"s significantly outnumbers that of "oppose"s, so theoretically a closer could close as consensus being to enforce a formal (narrow, perhaps temporary) ban. Hijiri 88 (やや) 07:11, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Opposed The mentoring with David Tornheim is the perfect solution, imo. Endercase has not been such a problem that they deserve being banned or censored in any way, imo. They just need a first chance.Nocturnalnow (talk) 03:11, 13 March 2017 (UTC) Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Nocturnalnow (talkcontribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. (diff)
@Nocturnalnow: Again with this "censorship"? I stand by my offer to mentor Endercase (or at least help/supplement David's mentoring), but continuing to claim that something is being "censored" is not going to help. Claims that can be sourced only to Breitbart and InfoWars are already, effectively, barred from inclusion in Wikipedia because they are almost certainly false, so any specific sanction on use of particular sources by Endercase would not censor any content he might want to add. Hijiri 88 (やや) 05:17, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Wait ... or did you mean to write "censured"? If so, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I still disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion on whether he should be censured by the community. You're not entitled to accuse others of trying to "censor" him. Hijiri 88 (やや) 05:21, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm confident he meant censured. Thanks for the kind words Nocturnalnow. --David Tornheim (talk) 08:29, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
sorry..censured is what I meant. Nocturnalnow (talk) 17:20, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
@Nocturnalnow: Okay. Stricken. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I respect your opinion, but I don't agree. "censure" implies some kind of stigma, but not being allowed contribute to an area of an online encyclopedia in which one has caused disruption is not something that should be treated this way. Several other contributors to this discussion are subject to TBANs and other restrictions, and have (presumably) contributed constructively while abiding by those terms. Sometimes bans are handed out not because the users themselves were causing disruption (deliberately or mistakenly) but because the community or ArbCom decide that a (limited!) editing restriction is the easiest and best way to solve the problem. Again, here, I must emphasize that if Endercase is subjected to a formal ban and mentoring, and a few months down the line wants to appeal the ban, I will support it appeal if I think it is right. Hijiri 88 (やや) 07:20, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Hijiri 88, I understand your reasoning, I just think that in this case we should approach the matter from the position of holding back the formal ban for application if the mentoring does not fix the entire matter, similar to a court putting someone on probation. Nocturnalnow (talk) 14:53, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
@Nocturnalnow: But again, your analogy doesn't work: A formal ban, which amounts to "If you do this bad thing again, you will be blocked from editing" is similar to probation. Mentoring means that if the solution doesn't work, a new ANI thread and an entirely new discussion of what is to be done.
He was already given the same advice (in some cases by the same people!) that he now appears to be listening to before this ANI thread was opened, and flagrantly ignored it. It makes about as much sense to assume that he is faking contrition now in order to avoid a formal ban, and will go back to being disruptive once this thread is closed, as to assume that this is just a coincidence. It would be a technical AGF violation to apply a formal ban under these circumstances, except that both users offering to mentor him are telling him not to do what the proposed ban would formally prevent him from doing anyway, so that the only difference between a formal and an informal ban is that he is not allowed ignore the former.
If this gets closed as "Hijiri88 is to mentor Endercase" or "Hijiri88 and David Tornheim are to mentor Endercase", and Endercase immediately starts ignoring my mentoring, the responsibility to report him again and request a formal ban would then be on me, which is not something I want. Much better to formally say that if Endercase flagrantly ignores the advice of his mentor(s) he will be blocked, which would allow anyone to report him if he does so.
Hijiri 88 (やや) 21:36, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Regardless of the practical effect difference between mentoring and "ban", the word "ban" has a more negative linguistic connotation, whereas "mentoring" has a more cooperative connotation. So, I think we should respect the optics of any close as well as the practical effect of it. At least that's my opinion. Nocturnalnow (talk) 23:21, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose It seems that Endercase is listening to some good advice now. If they could stay away from WP:RS and stop bringing up those same issues voluntarily, that would be better. If this becomes a problem again, then a ban could be revisited, though I'm hopeful that won't needed. First Light (talk) 13:50, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
@First Light: You are right, but the "good advice" he is listening to at the moment is largely "don't post on RSN" and "don't cite Breitbart/InfoWars". The problem, though, is that the same advice was offered before this came to ANI, and he ignored it then. It's therefore entirely possible that he is only listening now because there is a discussion of a formal ban, and will stop listening once his thread is archived. While being formally subject to mentorship and ignoring said mentorship is likely going to result in a block, it would have to be left to the mentor to report on ANI that the mentorship is not working. The mentor, here, would be either me (I'm sick of ANI and really don't want to come back here if this happens) or David (who still seems not to recognize a number of the problems here). A formal ban would mean that if he ignores the mentors' (or even each individual mentor's) advice he will be blocked and it won't need to be the mentor who does the reporting. (I need to keep emphasizing this, since I don't want this to come back and bite me in the ass: This is based on my interpretation of the banning policy as being similar to the blocking policy; bans, with the exception of site-bans imposed on NOTHERE editors, are preventative, and are not meant to say that the banned users in some way "bad people" or "unwelcome on Wikipedia". I am not sure if others agree with this personal philosophy. I thought it was widely recognized and was kinda surprised not to see it formally enshrined in WP:BAN.) Hijiri 88 (やや) 09:13, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
@Hijiri88: I share some of the same skepticism that you do, regarding pattern of behavior and the mentor issues. I just think that one more chance, short leash, etc. is best. I also think that if the bad behavior continues, someone will bring it here. It won't depend upon you. Just my opinion. First Light (talk) 10:30, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
@First Light: Meh. It seems to me like "one more chance" and "short leash" would be arguments in favour of a TBAN, and if they waste that last chance by violating the TBAN they are issued with a block. But, again, this is based on my (personal? idiosyncratic?) opinion that a limited topic ban already is a last chance (which also seems to be what User:Softlavender is talking about above with [the ban] will allow Endercase to contribute productively to Wikipedia however he likes, and demonstrate that he is here to build an encyclopedia). Hijiri 88 (やや) 10:43, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Per above.Per the points raised by other editors. DarkKnight2149 20:06, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Note Darkknight2149 says "per above", but he hasn't actually posted anything above. His only other comment in this discussion is below here, which ... well, for reasons explained here his involvement in this thread is highly questionable. I'm also not the only one who thinks this drive-by commentary is inappropriate. Hijiri 88 (やや) 21:23, 13 March 2017 (UTC) (Edited 07:11, 15 March 2017 (UTC))
I was referring to genuine points raised by others when I said "See above". Also, see