Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive992

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Spam etc. on Tote betting article[edit]

IP blocked by Oshwah (non-admin closure) . Kpgjhpjm 17:46, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There has been lots of spam, unreferenced and off-topic content being added, by one or more people.

Most recently by the IP (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), and also by Embers18 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log).

It doesn't look like they're going to stop. Hevernon (talk) 15:08, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I configured pending changes for 6 months; if they continue now I will block them.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:13, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
I've blocked the IP, as their edits didn't stop after the protection was applied. Ymblanter, if you feel that my block duration was too short, feel free to modify it without my approval - just ping me and let me know what you changed it to (if you do so). ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 15:42, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, no, I am perfectly fine with the duration of the block.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:34, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Signal transmited, signal received. Mayimbú (talk · contribs) appears to be genuinely new at the enwiki experience, and has stated a willingness to learn from this. No further action needed at this time. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:55, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

After making exactly 10 edits and achieving auto-confirmed status, User:Mayimbú decided to add Zoë Quinn's original name to her article (which has been discussed on the talk page several times and prohibited as a form of harassment against Quinn). (Quinn's article is semi-protected.) As if that wasn't suspicious enough, the 10 previous edits that Mayimbú made were mostly trivial maintenance tasks that only experienced editors would know about, such as adding thumbtime parameters to video transclusions and replacing dead links with archived links. In other words, exactly the sort of simple, non-controversial edits an experienced editor would make if they were just trying to get a sock-puppet account auto-confirmed, but didn't want to exert much thought or effort. And as icing on the cake, one of their first 10 edits was to Encyclopedia Dramatica. Kaldari (talk) 07:38, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

It would also be nice if an admin could delete the edit to Zoë Quinn. Thanks. Kaldari (talk) 07:42, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Done that bit. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:47, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Hi! Im the author of the edit in question. I had originally planned to make an edit request on the Talk Page but it was also locked. I was not familiar with the rule that stated it was prohibited posting her original name when i made the edit (I've only read that it cannot be put as "Birth Name" so i put it as "former name", as indicated not only in the Boston Globe source, but also in the Washington Post and Medium source (where it was stated that she used that name during the legal proceedings and changed it legally to Zoe in August 25). So don't get the wrong idea, I started in wikipedia as an user in Commons in February 2017, I did the editing without any bad intentions. If I had known that rule before, I wouldn't have made it. PS: Another thing i did in the edit was changing the {{cite news}} that cited a Tweet for the more convenient {{cite tweet}} and fixing the "Heart Machine" citation. --Mayimbú (talk) 00:06, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Hi Mayimbú. No worries, and thank you for adding to this discussion and for explaining your thoughts behind this matter. We always try to assume good faith by default here and I appreciate you for understanding. On articles that are the subject of a contentious topic or have been the center of contentious editing in the past, you'll see a notification of this on the article's talk page (specifically, what to look for is the notice about the Arbitration Committee and the authorization of uninvolved administrators to impose discretionary sanctions). When you see this notice, you'll just need to be extra careful and make sure that any edits you plan to make to these pages aren't or weren't the subject of discussion that came to a consensus in opposition to having the particular change applied. You've only made a handful of edits to the project, and we fully expect new and unestablished editors to make these kinds of mistakes. Worry not; it's a normal part of learning and it's okay to make honest mistakes here. Just take the feedback you receive to heart, learn from those mistakes, and apply them going forward :-). If you haven't done so already, I highly recommend that you go through and complete Wikipedia's new user tutorial. It will provide you with many helpful walkthroughs, guides, interactive lessons, and other information that will be helpful to you. Most users who take this advice and do so tell me later that it was significantly helpful :-). ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 01:17, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jytdog (yet again) and Yakult[edit]

An IBan sanction has been enacted by administrator Ivanvector in the subthread below. (non-admin closure) Softlavender (talk) 13:30, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"This is a pile of dogshit on the sidewalk. If people want to write a real article on this, please do so. But I bet not a single one of the !voters here will clean up this dogshit. Nope, you will give your !vote and leave the shit here for other people to step in." is simply not acceptable editing behaviour.

This is yet another example of Jytdog as Saviour of Wikipedia against all other editors. This week he's taken against Yakult. I don't know if you can even buy this in the US, but it's huge in Europe and massive in its original Japan. But Jytdog wants rid of it.

That much is reasonable. But the edit warring and attacks on other editors since are not. This is typical Jytdog and it needs to stop. [1] [2] User_talk:Jytdog#Incivility. In particular, and classic Jytdog, they fall back on MEDRS as an excuse to impose whatever they want (and it's always their subjective WP:OR opinion, not anything sourced) against any source of consensus. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:33, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Umm... How are these diffs[3] [4] personal attacks? Tornado chaser (talk) 23:37, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
They're edit-warring and attacks on other editors (and their opinions, which we respect, per consensus). Jytdog has a substantial track record of both this, and of hiding behind MEDRS on utterly irelevant topics (metallurgy?) because he's an unassailable editor "defending" WP against fake medical claims. Yet he's the biggest bully and fraud of the lot. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:40, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
Andy Dingley I suggest you retract your personal comments about Jytdog, otherwise you look a little hypocritical. Tornado chaser (talk) 23:45, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
Would that be the statement, "He's the biggest bully and fraud of the lot."? Can I use a large <font> tag to make the point? Andy Dingley (talk) 23:47, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
That is the statement I am referring to, but it would think it unwise to use the font tag. Tornado chaser (talk) 23:50, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Jytdog was being less than civil, I'll give you that, but you appear to be assuming bad faith and making personal attacks. {{u|zchrykng}} {T|C} 23:59, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
This is just the latest installment of a long series of behaviour, wherein only Jytdog is a good enough editor to save Wikipedia from the barbarian horde. See User talk:Cullen328#AfD thing. He abuses other editors at an AfD, claims that no-one either will, or is fit to, "save" an article, goes for a fair bit of WP:REICHSTAG about how terrible this "spam" article is and how it must be speedied (but just take a look at the size of Yakult as a company and product). Then when other editors do start to show an interest in working on it, they're abused, reverted, berated at their own talk: pages and templated like a newbie. Such that then only Jytdog gets to edit the article (lesser editors will just be reverted on sight) and then finally there's a victory parade and round of applause from his fans, because only Jytdog was able to save Gotham. No. This is a collegiate project, and Jytdog needs to learn how to work with others. And that starts by leaving out the scatological abuse. Andy Dingley (talk) 07:00, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Agree The incivility from this editor should be obvious from the long list of complaints on his talk page. He had been warned to stop swearing and promised not to continue, yet it continues unabated. --David Tornheim (talk) 23:56, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Andy is all sweaty and exercised, but scurrying to that page to edit badly and leaving such silly notes on the talk page don't help create high quality content. It was rather just WP:POINTY (perfectly so - actually restoring bad and badly sourced, policy-violating content, to make a point).
Ever since that reprap thing Andy has let themselves get all worked up over me periodically, as they acknowledged here (and as anyone can see in that thread).
I'd like folks to consider a one-way IBAN, as mentioned the last time Andy was blocked for their pursuit of me. Jytdog (talk) 00:04, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Jytdog is occasionally over-enthusiastic but he works hard to improve the encyclopedia and is almost always correct. Anyone who works to reduce the promotion of dubious products (or the promotion of products with dubious claims) gets attacked by the promoters and their enablers, as seen here. Of course Yakult won't be deleted and of course those (like me) who point that out won't help to clean up the article. No one is without sin. I support a one-way interaction ban to prevent Andy Dingley from pursuing Jytdog. Johnuniq (talk) 00:11, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
    • Yes I was venting, and shouldn't have, as i noted here. I shouldn't have written that. fwiw, and it may cause yet more trouble, i have struck it Jytdog (talk) 00:21, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • The point here is that it is not an excuse for you to behave like this, and then strike it, as if that excuses it. You do this all the time. Your wolf-call has worn thin. You are perpetually abusive to other editors, and then you excuse this by reverting later. No. This has to stop. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:27, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry but where is the justification in such hostile behavior and antagonistic retoric by Jytdog? Are we saying that "working hard" means that an editor don't have to be civil? Then I would like to know what level of editing can excuse such a behavior? How is it this behavior acceptable from anyone? be it an IP or a 15 year veteran? Oh and an "IBAN" for reporting bad behavior?  MPJ-DK  00:23, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • I also have concerns about Jytdog regarding WP:civility and WP:AGF, that are completely unrelated to Andy dingly's issues, and can provide diffs if needed, but this kind of standing by personal attacks[5] makes andy's complaint look hypocritical, it seems we have 2 uncivil editors making incivility accusations against eachother. Tornado chaser (talk) 00:44, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Totally agree that it is on both sides, whatever happens should not just be a one sided thing.  MPJ-DK  01:26, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Drop this and move on I happen to be one of the editors subjected to Jytdog's profane tirade, which he wisely struck out. I list over 110 articles on my userpage where I have saved articles at AfD by expanding and improving them. In this case, I provided four sources indicating that the topic is notable but had neither the time nor the interest to improve this article. I am not required to improve every single article that I recommend keeping at AfD. On the other hand, Jytdog does excellent work in the field of quackery and pseudoscience. Jytdog, please re-read the ArbCom admonitions from 2015, and realize that this type of outburst can lose you allies. Please do a better job of controlling yourself going forward. Andy Dingley, you also ought to control yourself better because your complaint here looks more vindictive than well reasoned. And yes, Yakult is sold in the United States too. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 01:28, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • I am curious as to why repeated incivility is tolerated? Would my edit history also allow me to be uncivil? And "striking it" does not make it go away, a change in behavior makes it go away.  MPJ-DK  01:34, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • That is superficially a great question. But investigating actual issues shows that describing content (not contributors) as bad-word is often due to an underlying problem related to promotional content with extravagant and undue claims, with very polite enablers who work hard to make sure the underlying problem remains. It would be great if Jytdog were like Mother Theresa, but such a person would probably not want to battle promotional content with extravagant and undue claims. Wikipedia needs such editors more than it needs superficial civility. Johnuniq (talk) 02:11, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • So again, what is the criteria one has to meet where outright hostility is okay? I see too many excuses made for "hard working editors" all of the time here. Would you accept such a behavior from a rookie editor? How about from a vet who should know better by now.  MPJ-DK  02:27, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way IBan of Andy Dingley towards Jytdog. His stalking, policing, and hounding of Jytdog has got to stop. It has exhausted the community's time, patience, and good-faith. Softlavender (talk) 01:49, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
So do you support Jytdog's comments at the AfD? Why? Because that is what this ANI filing is about. Your appearance here is unsurprising (Jytdog has many supporters, I expect the others will show up soon), but do you have anything relevant to add to this? Andy Dingley (talk) 06:52, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
No, in my mind this is about your longterm policing and hounding of Jytdog for the past 2.5 years, some of which is detailed in the bulleted list towards the bottom of this thread from March 2017: WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive950#Seeking a one way IBAN re Andy Dingley. You got a pass that time because the opening of the thread did not make the case, and it was only spelled out at the bottom of the thread. Since you are still obviously watching Jytdog to find any infraction you can report him for, and since the community has wasted too much time on your vindictive hounding of him, it's time that this were stopped. Softlavender (talk) 08:14, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
You got a pass that time – would that be the ANI posting where Jytdog conflated me with a claimed paid editor, then had to come back and edit his first posting, then strike it altogether? Again, classic Jytdog behaviour - make some sweeping accusation, then if it's challenged, withdraw it and pretend it never happened. No. He needs to stop doing that. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:57, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
No this detailed and cited pattern of targeting and stalking: [6]. -- Softlavender (talk) 10:22, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • The profanity itself can be only said to be mild incivility, being as they are not directed at people but content; the comments about other editors not helping the article are not ideal but hardly call for sanctions IMO (especially considering he's given an apology and struck it out). Meanwhile, "Yet he's the biggest bully and fraud of the lot." are undeniable strong personal attacks by Andy Dingley. And Andy seems to think that calling content WP:SYNTH- "This source does not mention Yakult. The content doesn't mention Yakult. Content here is OFFTOPIC and only here by some WP:SYN stretching" - are attacks, so is leaving a reasonably valid {{uw-nor1}} warning, apparently because "and their opinions, which we respect, per consensus"?? Apparently people can't argue against someone else's opinion on content without that being an attack? I don't know enough of the history between Andy and Jytdog to support the IBan above, however if anyone should be sanctioned it definitely should be Andy. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:01, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't know enough of the history between Andy and Jytdog to support the IBan above, however if anyone should be sanctioned it definitely should be Andy.
Well, thankyou for that argument from complete ignorance.
This is about Jytdog's behaviour at Yakult and its AfD. If you want to defrock me, then start another thread. Don't miss out Jytdog filing false SPIs against me, or me being blocked by one of his supporter admins for pointing out at ANEW that his 4RR was blockable, even on the regulars. Jytdog's history is not a glorious one, and I've had to receive plenty of it myself. He is a bully. Andy Dingley (talk) 07:20, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
You know that if WP:BOOMERANG applies it will be applied, and attempts to deflect attention from your behavior won't wash. Pointing to your own block suggests the motivation is more related to retribution than improving the encyclopedia. Just drop it. Johnuniq (talk) 07:26, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
" Pointing to your own block" – you'll find that was Jytdog. Best ask him why he thought it was relevant to bring it up here. Andy Dingley (talk) 07:38, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
I figure you're experienced enough to know about WP:BOOMERANG. My comments were solely focused on Jytdog's comments and your comments here (which are inexcusable irregardless of any history). And indeed, I've looked into the history more (searching the WP:ANI archives) and that strengthens the case that there's no real substance behind your aspersions and that per Johnuniq you appear to be bringing this for retribution. Since Dingley has continued to attack Jytdog I suggest an admin to impose a block, and I now support a one way WP:IBAN based on looking more at the history of interactions. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:33, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Agree I attended the AfD and found Jytdog's ranting about dogshit to be unacceptably unpleasant. The AfD should not have been started in the first place as there was a clear failure to consider alternatives to deletion per WP:BEFORE. The behaviour reminded me of TenPoundHammer who would likewise start impetuous AfDs and make foul-mouthed rants there. They were banned from deletion activity as a result. As Jytdog has previously been warned by arbcom, a similar sanction would be appropriate. Andy should be commended for his bravery and willingness to confront this. Andrew D. (talk) 07:28, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
@Andrew Davidson: Your repeated attempts to smear any "deletionist" editor you don't like by associating them with the one you managed to get TBANned, while said one TBANned editor has been carefully abiding by said TBAN (clean block log since 2012, unlike yourself) and apparently done nothing to merit your GRAVEDANCE-style celebration of their ban, is highly disruptive, and will no doubt lead to your being TBANned yourself sooner rather than later. The last time you did this (or, rather, the last time I caught you doing this) it involved bringing up a string of RFAs that had ended in September 2009; it's like you're trying to bait the community into trying to do something about you. Hijiri 88 (やや) 03:40, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Disagree Yes, Jytdog's comments are unacceptably unpleasant, and Jytdog should attempt to be more civil. (I've been annoyed by comments made to me in the past.) On the other hand, Jytdog is an important defender of Wikipedia articles against an unrelenting flood of attempts to add material claiming medical benefits for food products for which there is simply no reliable evidence, and there are too few such defenders. I too get exasperated by these additions in the articles I watch, so I sympathize with those whose patience wears thin, even though they are wrong to allow this to spill over into rudeness. Sanctioning Jytdog would just encourage those who keep trying to add unacceptable material. Peter coxhead (talk) 07:49, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Jytdog got a bit intemperate out of frustration (I think misguided in this case - there was no way Yakult was ever going to be deleted, and that's all an AFD is there to decide). But that can happen to the best of our contributors who can be passionate about keeping Wikipedia in the right direction. The offending comment has been struck with a recognition that it was inappropriate, and I see no need for any sanctions. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:06, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • I think Dingley needs to get over himself. Yes, the Yakult article was an advertising brochure. Still is, to a lesser degree. Yes, Jytdog was right to point it out. No, I don't think describing bad content as "dogshit" is necessarily an attack on specific people. Maybe if people weren't so quick to defend and excuse dubious quackery in articles people wouldn't get so worn down and frustrated by it. Reyk YO! 09:13, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • I don't think it is wise for Andy Dingley to focus on civility issues. I am more concerned about why an article like Yakult would be nominated for speedy deletion in the first place and AfD subsequently, and why people continues to template regulars in the heat of a dispute. Jytdog should know better; if there are evidence to suggest these two concerns are part of a pattern, then that should be the main focus. Other than that, I don't see anything else to be done here, as the offending comment has been struck and reflected as inappropriate. Alex Shih (talk) 09:44, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
@Alex Shih: Per my !vote in the AFD, I agree with you in principle, but the comment four comments up from your own is fairly strong evidence that "consensus to delete" is the only way to fix some articles, even on notable topics, since anytime an editor who has been marked as "a deletionist" attempts to implement any of the alternatives to deletion with or without an AFD they can apparently be subjected to a barrage of "inclusionist" disruptive edit-warring and restoration of the counter-policy content in question. I didn't bother you about the mess at Talk:Mottainai because I was pretty sure you were busy with ArbCom stuff, or the similar mess at Talk:Korean influence on Japanese culture because at the time I had no idea who you were and, while that was mostly an "October 2014 to May 2015" affair, you were largely inactive between August 2013 and June 2017, but neither of those are applicable at the moment. Hijiri 88 (やや) 03:40, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Disagree. Let's focus on the quality of Jytdog's edits, people, not the the occasional rants in edit summaries or talk discussion profanity which are as common as what one might hear in boardrooms or the Oval Office of the White House. He is a valuable tireless defender of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, invests effort in quality content and sources more than nearly all medical/food editors, and is a highly respected editor of a wide diversity of articles. Ignore the occasional discussion noise, and appreciate the unselfish extent and quality of editing on the encyclopedia project. While I feel Yakult should be retained as an article, the content as it exists now is sufficient (although it is so thin in content, reasons to consider deletion are justified), and Jytdog's edits were appropriate based on WP:NPOV and WP:V. --Zefr (talk) 15:35, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Disagree. Jytdog uses a lot of colourful language, but it's always (in my experience) about content not editors. He's struck the problematic comment at the RfC, and has apologised for venting. Andy Dingley, on the other hand, has called him a bully and a fraud in this thread, a personal attack that he has refused to strike when called to, even threatening to make it large font to emphasise the point. That seems out of line to me. GirthSummit (blether) 15:58, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • I've given Jytdog advice about this kind of thing many times, and it's long since gotten to where he has made it clear to me that he is sick and tired of hearing it from me, and for that matter, I'm sick and tired of telling it to him. There is no question that he is a very smart and productive member of the community, a net positive albeit not a pure positive. And I do think that Andy Dingley and Jytdog just need to steer clear of each other. I saw the AfD comments, and I think that they are childish, and that it's unfortunate that Wikipedia has gotten to the point where that sort of thing can be defended. We should not be editing in an environment where that sort of thing is tolerated. I wish that Jytdog would get into the habit of taking a breath before hitting the save button, but I doubt that he will. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:35, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
    • Yes, I still need to clean up my own act. I am not there yet (you however have no idea how many times I do not-save comments and tone them down before I save them: i am failing too often, still).
    • That said, about the "avoiding each other" thing. What he did at Yakult is the same thing he did the times I described here, as Softlavender recalled above. Describing this as a two way issue distorts reality. Jytdog (talk) 18:41, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for that. I appreciate it, genuinely, and I wish you well in all of this. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:49, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
 Comment: This edit from Jytdog completely removed the fact Yakult has 14g of sugar for every 100g. The "citation needed" tag could have been easily resolved. Alexis Jazz (talk) 21:22, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

One-way IBAN proposed[edit]

I've spent a while reading through this, and I read the result as follows:
  • There is clear consensus here that Andy Dingley (talk · contribs)'s behaviour toward Jytdog (talk · contribs) is toxic, and requires a preventive sanction. The strongest support is for a one-way interaction ban. I've also taken into account those suggesting Andy Dingley's actions warrant a two-way IBAN, suggesting that a one-way IBAN is improper because both parties should be sanctioned, and a few comments suggesting other sanctions such as a block, which I've interpreted as recognition of the problem. Thus, Andy Dingley is banned from interaction with Jytdog, broadly construed, per the usual conditions.
  • There is a strong additional feeling here that Jytdog's own behaviour continues to be problematic after many warnings to reform and pledges to uphold civility. However, there is not a clear consensus here that a sanction is warranted. More to the point, it's not clear from this discussion whether Jytdog's problematic behaviour is directed at Andy Dingley or is simply problematic in general. Jytdog ought to reflect on this, as I see this as the community's patience wearing thin.
-- Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:08, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I propose a one-way IBAN against Andy Dingley from mentioning or addressing Jytdog as per WP:IBAN, in view of AD's insults above and of the long-term problem. Full disclosure: I appear above in a post by AD,[7] in the nameless shape of "one of [Jytdog's] supporter admins" (nice), who blocked AD for 31 hours in 2016 for persistent harassment of Jytdog. AD says above that my block reason was that he, AD, had "point[ed] out at ANEW that his [=Jytdog's] 4RR was blockable" and gives this diff in evidence. That's not true, but presumably an honest mistake rather than deliberate misdirection. In my block notice and the block log I stated that the reason was persistent personal attacks, and provided a diff to an example from a different ANEW thread than the one AD links to (which is nothing to the purpose). Anyway. I told Andy at that time that "I noticed Jytdog talked about an IBAN, but my experience of those is very discouraging, and I believe they should only be used in the most extreme situations, where nothing else has helped. Let's see what a short block will do." It doesn't look like it did anything at all, as might no doubt have been foreseen (I was being optimistic), and two years down the road, it looks like we have an extreme situation, and nothing but an IBAN will do it. Please support or oppose below. Or, if you like, support a two-way IBAN. Bishonen | talk 17:54, 8 September 2018 (UTC).

  • Support one-way. I've seen enough in diffs here with long-term interactions being a problem. Jytdog has definitely had cautions about language and getting frustrated with editors, including cautions from me, but in my experience (including this one), that frustration usually ends up being due to other editors pursuing battleground behavior towards them and trying to use ANI, etc. to continue that.
I tend to have a fine line between suggesting one-way vs. two-way bans though. That being said, I would be pretty opposed to a two-way at this time. Most everything I've seen for this specific interaction points to Andy being the source of disruption with Jytdog either trying to avoid them when possible or getting reasonably frustrated with a hounding editor. Making it two way at this time wouldn't really be WP:PREVENTATIVE since one-way already takes care of the problem. We tend to cut hounded editors a little slack when they get frustrated, and I haven't seen anything that indicates a one-way wouldn't work for this interaction. If there is actual evidence of Jytdog trying to abuse the one-way to make potshots towards Andy (as opposed to legitimate content criticism), it can always be bumped up to two-way. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:42, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Some editors have been opposed to a one-way below, but instead want a two-way. Others have brought up how a two-way could be gamed (not entirely sure how that easily that would happen here though). Either way, it looks like we have good evidence that Andy has been pursuing Jytdog, but I haven't seen a similar level of pursuit in the Jytdog to Andy direction. Two-way interaction bans can be hypothetically gamed to keep a hounded editor from editing because their hounder made some edits to the article, so we do need to be cautious about just defaulting to two-way or superficially saying it takes two to tango.
It would seem less complicated to just do a one-way unless we have evidence Jytdog is going to be pursuing Andy problematically during a one-way. Thinking about how a two-way would functionally work, I'm just not seeing justification yet to potentially make editing tougher for Jytdog if it's a topic they would normally edit and Andy was somehow involved. A one-way means a single editor was/will be the main source of disruption in the interaction, while a two-way means both editors essentially have it out for each other and would continue to if either of them were allowed to interact at all. That's a bit higher of a bar to meet for a preventative pox on all their houses approach. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:09, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way per nom. Jtdog still has stuff to work on, but I would take someone being colorful about bad content over someone following another editor around and hoping for a gotcha, which is what it feels like it happening here. {{u|zchrykng}} {T|C} 19:16, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way Supported that above - per my comments above - there's a persistent pattern of Dingley personally attacking Jytdog which is unacceptable. Galobtter (pingó mió) 19:17, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way This pattern of behavior has gone on too long. Andy Dingley needs to leave Jytdog alone, and if Jytdog screws up, there are plenty of other editors to intervene. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 20:08, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way The behavior in this thread and the difs presented is enough to convince me that it will serve both AD and wikipedia well to stop interacting with JD. Bishonen did not clarify the length of the IBAN in the proposal, is it expected to be indef ? --DBigXray 20:16, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Sorry, yes, DBigXray. An indefinite IBAN. I was kind of assuming indefinite is the default for IBANs. Of course they can be appealed, but I don't think it's a good idea that people can simply wait for IBANs to expire. Bishonen | talk 20:19, 8 September 2018 (UTC).
  • Oppose Why does Jytdog get a free pass for our normal policies? Why did you, Bishonen, block me for a comment at ANEW pointing out that when Jytdog 4RRs he is due a block, same as anyone? Jytdog is free to post his "dogshit" comments at AfD, to persistently bully other users (go on, say he doesn't!), to pull stunts like filing fatuous SPIs, and to be the self-appointed guardian of COI, despite having a huge one of his own (and a topic ban from GMO as a result) but too secret for mere mortals to know about it. A tban which is evidently useful for blanking comments here more than it has been at keeping Jytdog away from biotech.
Jytdog's supporters allow him to run roughshod over our basic policies and other editors. This has to stop. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:31, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
This project does not need you to be Jytdog's police officer. That has to stop. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 20:37, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
So are you claiming that I'm banned from editing the Yakult article? Jytdog seems to think so. I didn't see the AfD, but afterwards when I start work on the cleanup, his immediate reaction is a direct reversion and a "Welcome to Wikipedia" template. That is why I posted to ANI, not because of the AfD comments themselves – although they're certainly inexcusable. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:46, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Reading through the Arbcom case, if you are using that to imply that a COI is why Jytdog was given a TBAN, you need to read it more carefully. I'm not seeing that stated anywhere in the decision. {{u|zchrykng}} {T|C} 20:55, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
You what, Andy Dingley? I pointed out — politely — in my post above that you had linked to an ANEW thread that was nothing to the purpose wrt my block, and I provided a link to the correct diff — the diff I gave in my block notice and in the block log — and I assumed good faith that your error was an accident — and you simply repeat your wrong link (it's not even a diff, btw) and your claim that that was what I blocked you for? You have to be kidding. Bishonen | talk 20:59, 8 September 2018 (UTC).
This thread: User:CanadaRed_reported_by_User:Jytdog_(Result:_)
The ANEW thread I linked to above: a comment at ANEW
This same thread: User:CanadaRed_reported_by_User:Jytdog_(Result:_)
"this diff" from your comment above:
This same thread: User:CanadaRed_reported_by_User:Jytdog_(Result:_)
my block notice
My talk page (not a block notice) and Hounding, in relation to this same thread again: User:CanadaRed_reported_by_User:Jytdog_(Result:_)
The actual block notice November 2016 and again,
this same thread: User:CanadaRed_reported_by_User:Jytdog_(Result:_)
"an example" from your post above
and guess what, this same thread again: User:CanadaRed_reported_by_User:Jytdog_(Result:_)
So no, I don't know what your point is. You're giving the same links as I'm giving, to the same comment at ANEW – where I point out that 4RR by Jytdog is blockable EW, and that's the same for any editor, including him. Except that evidently it isn't. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:19, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way The OP of this thread is a classic "I don't like X, so I'm gonna get X banned!!!" post. There doesn't seem to be any meat to this complaint, and that strikes me as something that needs to be cut off. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:56, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
No meat to this complaint? Jytdog is again appointing himself the sole guardian of Wikipedia and reflex-reverting anyone else who gets involved in "his" article. That's the core of the complaint here. Now tell me that's not something he does persistently. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:05, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Andy, the diffs you claimed were personal attacks are clearly nothing of the sort. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:09, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Seeing as several people have made fairly large changes to Yakult since this discussion started, and I don't think Jytdog has reverted any of them (I haven't checked the log completely), this statement is false on its face. {{u|zchrykng}} {T|C} 21:09, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
So why is Jytdog choosing to revert me specifically? Funny that. Are you suggestingMight it be that it's for reasons unrelated to the content itself? Hmmm.... Andy Dingley (talk) 21:26, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
I didn't say, imply, or suggest anything of the kind and would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. {{u|zchrykng}} {T|C} 21:31, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one way. Enough already. Guy (Help!) 21:02, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one way The insults have only been going one way. GirthSummit (blether) 21:13, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
No, that is unacceptably far from true. I've had to tolerate no end of abuse from Jytdog for years, from fake SPIs, to veiled accusations of being a paid editor, to this week the fairly petty end of being templated as a newbie. So don't say that Jytdog is blameless in this. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:24, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose punishing one while giving the other a free pass is a ridiculous double standard.  MPJ-DK  21:32, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • An interaction ban is not punishment—it is recognition of the fact that sometimes an editor can become fixated on an issue and become disruptive in their attempts to pursue the matter. In essence, no one at ANI cares who is right and who is wrong—what matters is that the pointless policing stop. Anyone else is welcome to check Jytdog's edits and report any problems. Johnuniq (talk) 00:58, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Really? Not "punishment"? right, a guy reports someone for repeated hostility and he's told not to interact with the hostile editor who is given a free pass so he can be hostile again sure as heck looks like punishment to me. And yes it's obivous most people don't care that Jytdog is repatedly hostile, that double standard is abundantly clear. Don't try to sell this as anything other than a punishment, we see the double standards, we are not idiots.  MPJ-DK  01:09, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • As for the joke comment about "welcome to report problems" - no thanks I don't need a pointless IBAN after being told that there are various excuses for incivility. That lesson has truely been cemented here. (And with that I am out, piece said, don't want to risk a "reminder" IBAN or anything).  MPJ-DK  01:12, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose: One-way IBANs are inherently flawed. Two-way or no-way. pbp 21:37, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • This claim is frequently made in community discussions such as this, but, as far as I am aware, no one has ever offered up any real evidence to support the contention. On the other hand, a perusal of WP:Editing restrictions shows a number of one-way IBans which appeared to have worked, and others which have caused the banned editor to later be indefinitely blocked, which is a success for the IBan in another way. I think perhaps use of this trope should be shelved until someone can show it to be true. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:17, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • @Beyond My Ken: As I said further down, I've actually opposed one-way IBANs (and proposed two-way IBANs in situations where I recognized that the situation was one-way disruption) in the past, primarily as a result of this near-unanimous ArbCom decision that one-way IBANs simply are not a thing. The community has imposed such restrictions a number of times, both before and since, and actually 2/7 of the active "one-way interaction ban"s currently logged at WP:RESTRICT were placed by ArbCom (one was voluntary, and the other four community-imposed). Hijiri 88 (やや) 05:31, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one way. We've been here enough times, as admins who patrol the drama boards will recall, and it's time to give it a rest. Black Kite (talk) 21:52, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way - I sympathize with complaints regarding vested contributors being allowed to ignore WP:CIVIL. Witnessing such events as a newer editor really affected me deeply, and were what motivated me to become a positive force in WP:WQA, WP:AAU, RFA reform, which directly led to me becoming an administrator. For a long time, I memorialized many of these people who had fallen victim to such behavior on my talk page, enshrining their otherwise-futile expressions of pain. So, I hear AD's accusation, because it really speaks to me directly. WP:CIVIL is important. It's a pillar of Wikipedia. But the evidence simply doesn't support the allegations. I'm not seeing it. Neither is anyone else. AD's complaint is entirely inactionable, and the continued disbelief that no one else can see the problem is unreasonable. @Purplebackpack89: your view doesn't add up. A two-way IBAN separates users who can't get along with one another. A one-way IBAN prevents one user from harassing another user who isn't at fault. Are you claiming Jytdog is in the wrong here? Swarm 21:58, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Is Jytdog in the wrong here? Do you think that his AfD comments are acceptable? Do you think that it's acceptable for him to berate other editors like that for ignoring flawed articles, but then when someone does start working on it, to simply revert and template them? No, it is not. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:13, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
You've been here long enough to know that we don't police curse words and we don't punish venting. Yes, it's uncivil, as it is to template a regular. Are those actionable offenses? Not remotely. Swarm 02:39, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per MPJ-DK and Purplebackpack89 as a double-standard. This proposal is not only condoning the use of "dog shit" to describe edits, it is punishing an editor for complaining about it. If Jytdog struck out "dogshit" because he truly believed it was wrong, then why has he not struck out his other uses of it here on this active AN/I thread, or twice here. As I pointed out above (Kingofaces43 removed), he has promised to stop cursing when admonished, but these are empty promises. --David Tornheim (talk) 22:17, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Not edits, content. It was an advert. It is vastly better now. [8]. None of those prior edits were by Andy Dingley, who has made only 2 edits in the decade I've checked. Guy (Help!) 22:28, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
@JzG: Do you honestly condone the use of the phrase "dogshit" to describe content when confronting an editor who added it? --David Tornheim (talk) 22:49, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
You didn't "add it". Please stop claiming text that was written by others as your own, as you have done far too many times throughout this thread. You showed up to the article immediately after he removed it, and re-added it, with the apparent intention of provoking an incident and opening an ANI thread. Hijiri 88 (やや) 21:13, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
I have checked the diffs. They do not mention any person. They correctly identify this article as the target of long-term promotional editing and blatant woo. Feel free to cite any example where Jytdog specifically attacks Andy Dingley or an individual identified edit or series of edits by Andy. Guy (Help!) 22:56, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Also, they weren't "confronting an editor", they were presenting evidence of that editor's terrible editing at WP:ANI. Incidentally, they added Red wine to their category "Health drinks" and it's still there (well, for the next 15 seconds or so). Whilst I wouldn't use the word "dogshit" myself, I can think of plenty of other pejoratives that would describe it. Black Kite (talk) 23:00, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
Here they did angrily confront an editor with profanity[9], it was a problematic editor, but I still think "You are the guy who leaves dog shit on the sidewalk. You are that guy". is a bit personal, and there is no reason a final warning template needs to start with "Knock it the hell off." Tornado chaser (talk) 00:04, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
@Tornado chaser: Bringing up unrelated discussions involving Jytdog comes across as just trying to smear him for the hell of it. If you took even the ten minutes to look at the context like I did, you would have noticed that Jytdog was being extremely patient with an editor who had violated an unblock condition dozens of times. BP shouldn't even be editing here at all, so talking about addressing them with "profanity" (and "shit" and "hell" are pretty mild compared with what I've seen some editors get away with) is ... not right. Hijiri 88 (やや) 00:20, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • cite any example where Jytdog specifically attacks Andy Dingley
Jytdog has been doing this for years. Look at the ANI thread on Berylliosis. He even filed an SPI on me, describing it as "It feels weird to file this", shortly after he'd stated at ANI that he wouldn't file an SPI on me as it would be ridiculuous. He even awarded me a "Moron Diploma". This weeks he's flinging generalised dogshit around, because he gets to be just as angry with it, but it's clearly not actionable at ANI if he does it more generally. So please don't say, "Jytdog doesn't attack other editors".
Also, the whole reason that this thread was posted was because he claimed of other editors not getting involved with editing an article, then when they do (or just when I do so) he summarily reverts the lot and issues a "Welcome to Wikipedia" template. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:43, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Andy, that thread, yet another example of your hounding and policing Jytdog, reflects far worse on you than on Jytdog, as the consensus reveals. Also, there is no stricture on filing an SPI. You just said "This weeks he's flinging generalised dogshit around", so apparently Jytdog is not allowed to use that term but you are? Softlavender (talk) 09:52, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
there is no stricture on filing an SPI. Yes, there is. A bogus SPI is an obvious form of harassment, which is why we require so much evidence to support them. In this particular case, there was a reasonable case (although failing at SPI) for investigating a couple of new accounts, no reason at all to hang them on my name.
I apologise if my quoting of Jytdog's phrasing has offended your sensibilities, but I don't have your talent for polite euphemism and I see no way to discuss his phrasing (and why it's a problem) other than (unfortunately) by quoting it. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:02, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Please (1) indicate the policy which states a stricture on filing an SPI; (2) provide proof that the SPI was "bogus". It was supported by Cirt, resulted in a block of Milligansuncle by JzG, and was CUed by Mike V, who closed as "Unlikely". The sentence of yours I quoted (This weeks he's flinging generalised dogshit around) was not you quoting Jytdog, it was you calling his comments "generalised dogshit". Softlavender (talk) 11:18, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
I invite those interested to read the SPI itself. It was closed by MikeV, with no provable action as it was Unrelated and Unlikely. But JzG blocked anyway, with the comment A sock of someone, it doesn't matter much who. - an interesting response to the SPI. As stated already, I don't have a problem with Jytdog opening an SPI on a number of new accounts, I do object to him filing it in my name. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:03, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
I have read it. The fact that CU was performed at all (a rather high bar for SPI to pass) is evidence that Jytdog was acting in good faith, that there was significant behavioural evidence of sockpuppetry, and that someone else agreed as much. Also, the SPI dates to April 2016! Your still holding a grudge (or pretending to still hold a grudge) against someone for a good-faith procedural action they took the better part of three years ago is a pretty clear indication that you are not acting in good faith now. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:18, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Since I was pinged, the comment of David Tornheim’s that I removed was a violation of their GMO topic ban where a lot of that ban was due to battleground behavior directed towards Jytdog and other editors. It looks like that same following around is being continued at this ANI. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:27, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way Obviously Jytdog didn't do anything sanctionable here; neutral on whether a one-way IBAN or some other sanction against Andy would be better. However, I'm wondering if we're missing the forest for the trees here: Andrew Davidson and other "keepist" editors shooting down a theoretically valid AFD with off-topic notability arguments, sometimes even specifically mentioning WP:ATD, then attempting to prevent to prevent non-deletion solutions being implemented by the AFD nom, apparently as "revenge", is a much bigger problem, IMO. This is a recurring, massive problem: see the mess Andrew Davidson caused at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Korean influence on Japanese culture for perhaps the worst historical example, where he shot down the AFD with an off-topic "notability" rationale, based on sources he clearly hadn't read, and then didn't lift a finger to hem the disruption his AFD behaviour caused once the discussion was closed. I was seriously hoping the "keepists" would prove Jytdog's statement at AFD that not a single one of the !voters here w[ould] clean up this dogshit, but this ANI thread and the statements of all the disruptive "keepists" and hounds have sadly proven him right. Also, I'm annoyed that no one notified me of this discussion, given that the notification to Jytdog was explicitly posted in a talk page section I opened specifically about the potential danger of editors coming along and mass-reverting Jytdog while citing the AFD "consensus" as an excuse.
Also support TBAN on XFD for Andrew Davidson (talk · contribs) per the above. I don't think it will happen at this point, but it definitely should soon. See also other recent disruption, such as deliberately disguising a cat-link to look like an article on a similar topic (in an Indian topic, an area Bishonen (talk · contribs) not long ago told him he would be TBANned from if he didn't stop his disruptive behaviour).
Hijiri 88 (やや) 00:06, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way Those of us doomed to be long-term ANI watchers know that enough is enough and the policing has to stop. Someone else will notice if Jytdog is a problem. Johnuniq (talk) 00:50, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose one-way ban. Wikipedia must be even handed. I could support a two-way ban. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:21, 9 September 2018 (UTC).
  • Oppose 1 way I Ban on principle. "I can talk to or about you, but you cannot mention my name" has never worked for me. A two way I Ban would be acceptable with the caveat that when being logged a statement is included to the effect that in the case of Jytdog, it is not a sanction but purely an administrative part of the sanction imposed on AD. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:35, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
@Ad Orientem: I'm sympathetic to your argument, but in my (EXTENSIVE) experience two-way IBANs in cases of one-way disruption (which this is) have a much more blatant history of (and potential for) being gamed than one-way IBANs on the mere point of principle that "I can talk to or about you, but you cannot mention my name" doesn't work. I would not be opposed to Jytdog being warned that "poking the bear" by discussing Andy inappropriately could result in sanctions for him, as I was warned to in the Tristan noir incident (yes, that wording in the restriction was on occasion gamed in subsequent years by assholes who were harassing me, but we don't assume that will be a significant issue off the bat; if editors inclined to hound Jytdog, like, for example, Andrew Davidson or David Tornheim, neither of whom are regular contributors to ANI, tried to game it, we should just block or otherwise sanction them). And @Jytdog: That would not be a slight against you as long as the filing admin was legit uninvolved and didn't use wording that implied you had done or would do such things. Hijiri 88 (やや) 01:55, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
That said, an alternative sanction on Andy (an XFD TBAN?) would also be acceptable, per my own !vote further up. Hijiri 88 (やや) 01:57, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • an XFD TBAN? What possible justification do you have for that? Are you aware that I hadn't even see the Yakult AfD, let alone commented on it? So why even bring up an XfD TBAN?? Either justify that, or it just looks like flinging mud for the sake of it! Andy Dingley (talk) 11:23, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
No idea; but your recent disruptive hounding/autorevert action was a clear response to the AFD. If you can think of another one-way sanction against yourself that would be more appropriate, I'd be glad to consider it. (Note that I didn't actually propose an XFD TBAN above; you appear to just be seeing what you want to see.)
Also (I just noticed this): Jytdog is already the beneficiary of a one-way IBAN against another editor who apparently hounded them.[10] Yeah, it would be nice if the community was consistent one way (no pun intended) or the other on whether one-way IBANs were a thing, but I don't think !voting based on the assumption that they shouldn't be, when they clearly are, is a good idea. (Yes, I have done this myself in the past, but subsequent events, some involving me directly but most just the result of me spontaneously noticing the existence of one-way IBANs unrelated to myself, have change my mind on this.) Hijiri 88 (やや) 02:22, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
You're unwilling to support a one-way IBAN, unless it's specifically framed as a two way IBAN in which one party is only included as a formality? In other words, you agree that AD is worthy of the sanction, but you also want to procedurally sanction Jyt, in spite the fact that he had done nothing to warrant a sanction, for no other reason than to satisfy your own personal principles? Really? If that's really the case, than you should probably reconsider your principles... Swarm 02:47, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way IBan against Andy Dingley towards Jytdog. The community has wasted too much time and energy on this feud. Andy Dingley was duly warned that this would probably be the next step at the time of his last block. It's time to enact the IBan as described, so we don't end up back here yet again, wasting more time and energy. Softlavender (talk) 03:02, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one way IBan Having read through this whole sorry saga and followed the links, there is as clear a justification for a one way IBan as I have seen. Jytdog is doing valuable work and the complained about comments were not personal attacks by any means. Andy dingley needs to stop this. - Nick Thorne talk 03:56, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • "does valuable work" - agreed. But does that valuable work extend to:
  • Complain that no-one else will work on an article, and throwing terms like dogshit at the general editor community to do so.
  • When someone does start, summarily revert them.
  • Template them with a "Welcome to Wikipedia" warning?
Yes, he does valuable work. But he's also abusive to editors he doesn't like. That's what he did here, that's what this thread is about. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:46, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
But none of the diffs you have provided show any personal attack by Jytdog. Their comments have quite rightly been about content, not other editors. Sure they may have used robust language, but far worse is used every day on Wikipedia without comment. You may not like a particular piece of content being described is "dogshit" but are you seriously going to try and defend the use of our articles as blatant advertising puff pieces for commercial interests? I can think of far worse ways of describing such material. The simple fact is that the diffs you have provided and even your comments on this very thread show that you are not prepared to abide by the no personal attacks policy on Wikipedia when it comes to Jytdog. It is more than obvious that you have been hounding them and nothing they have done justifies your repeated attacks on them. Keep this up after the inevitable IBan and you may find your self being indeffed. A word to the wise. - Nick Thorne talk 10:12, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
@Andy Dingley: Jytdog was right to complain that none of the "keepist" editors who shut down his Yakult AFD would lift a finger to fix the article, as none of them did (hardly any of them ever do). Personally I think the worst thing Jytdog did, something for which I forgave him immediately when he apologized, was lump me in with those editors. Honestly, given the timing of your jumping in and reverting him (having not contributed to the AFD discussion) and your specifically posting the notification of this ANI discussion in my thread on his talk page, it looks like you saw my (not angry or "you should be sanctioned for this") criticism of what Jytdog said, and decided to jump on it.
And your complaining (below) that "But no-one does [police Jytdog]" is awfully hypocritical in light of your saying he's not allowed complain that no one does the heavy lifting to fix these articles. Neither did you "start to work on the article" nor did he "summarily revert you"; you summarily reverted him, without doing any work. (And your referring to yourself in the third person here does not help the situation.)
Hijiri 88 (やや) 11:30, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Jytdog's complaint that "no-one helps with these articles" carries no weight, when the first thing he does afterwards is to revert someone who does just that. Comments like Oh User:Chiswick Chap removed a couple of specks of shit. Goody for them. are really not acceptable too (I see that as a clear and personally targeted CIVIL breach, but few others seem to).
I note that I'm only one of at least four complaining of his phrasing here: User talk:Jytdog#Yakult / User talk:Jytdog#Incivility. Strangely, one of them was you. So whay are you now calling for me to be banned from XfD? Andy Dingley (talk) 11:58, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
But you didn't "do just that": you auto-reverted him because you don't like him.
You are misquoting and misrepresenting the views of other editors to suit your anti-Jytdog harassment agenda. Nothing I said was meant to imply I wanted sanctions brought against him, and I rightly accepted his immediate and clearly sincere apology. As you should have.
Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:18, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose 1 way, support 2 way this stems less from my support toward on or the other of the people involved in the ban and more from the fact that I do not think a 1-way ban should be employed against two autoconfirmed/extended rights users. I can see where 1 way Ibans would work in cases where an enexperienced user is trolling the talk page of another user, for example - but in this case where experienced users are comcefened a 2 way ban is fairer and probably more effective at solving the issue. Suggest expiration after a reasonable period. Edaham (talk) 04:01, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
@Edaham: Per my reply to AO above, it's probably not a good idea to support or oppose sanctions based on a principle that is not uniformly observed across the project. Even though it's clearly not your intent, opposing a one-way IBAN because you don't think one-way IBANs should be a thing while they clearly are, has the (I must stress, unintended) effect of supporting the harasser over the harassee. Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:36, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
@Hijiri88: Noted. I’ll consider that in future Edaham (talk) 05:01, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support 2 way Given the blatant PAs and misinterpretations from Andy Dingly despite being warned in the past and given a opportunity to strike them, and the fact that Jytdog's cursing isn't really actionable or causing major disruption, I think some action needs to be taken against Andy Dingly but I don't really like the idea of a one way IBAN, and agree with the above comment that the best way to cool this whole thing off is to just keep the 2 editors apart. I just don't like the idea of telling someone "you can't revert or mention him but he can revert you", this is not to punish Jytdog, just my general dislike of one-way IBANS. Tornado chaser (talk) 04:30, 9 September 2018 (UTC)Not going to !vote on this one way or the other, whole thing is just a big mess and I don't really know the history of the issue. Tornado chaser (talk) 19:30, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
@Tornado chaser: Per my reply to AO above, it's probably not a good idea to support or oppose sanctions based on a principle that is not uniformly observed across the project. Even though it's clearly not your intent, opposing a one-way IBAN because you don't think one-way IBANs should be a thing while they clearly are, has the (I must stress, unintended) effect of supporting the harasser over the harassee. Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:36, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way IBan - I am disappointed in Jytdog's intemperance in the incident that provoked this thread, just as I am disappointed by my own intemperance when it occurs, but it does appear to me from the available evidence, and from the behavior apparent in this very thread, that Andy Dingley needs to detach himself from his fixation with Jytdog, which a one-way Iban will help hom to accomplish. There is no evidence that, in general, Jytdog's behavior toward Dingley is such that a two-way ban is justified. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:23, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one way IBan-Enough is enough.As any long time drama-board-patroller can attest to, Andy does seem to be too affectionate for Jytdog.And, this needs to stop.And, Jytdog's behaviour, whilst not optimal, rises nowhere to the level of being sanctionable.WBGconverse 06:36, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way IBAN. I was hesitant to opine on IBAN suggestions yesterday, and in general I'm really not a big fan of one-way IBANs. But having had more time to examine this and think about it, I can only conclude that it would be beneficial in this case. Jytdog does go over the top at times (disappointingly so in some cases, like this one), but I think Cullen says it best: "This project does not need [Andy Dingley] to be Jytdog's police officer". Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:49, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose There seems to be a consensus that Jytdog went too far and they themselves have retracted. Andy Dingley's complaint was therefore valid and worth making. To punish them for this would be unfair. Andrew D. (talk) 07:56, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Umm, no one cares about this ANI report. The problem is that similar policing has been going on for over two years. An interaction ban is not punishment; it is an acknowledgment that certain behavior is persistent and not helpful for the encyclopedia. Others are welcome to police Jytdog. Johnuniq (talk) 08:12, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Andrew, your own behaviour throughout this whole incident (including at the AFD, as well as other AFDs which you should down by citing ATD, then proceeded to prevent the ATD-solutions because they were proposed/implemented by editors you see as "deletionists") has been significantly worse than Jytdog's (and I would argue even Andy's), and your contribution to the discussion will no doubt be judged accordingly. Your claim, if it was made in good faith rather than a wikilawyering trick which you don't yourself believe, that there is a "consensus that Jytdog went too far", which is apparently established by cherry-picking the "Jytdog may have gone a bit too colourful for my tastes" while ignoring the following "but obviously Andy is the much worse offender here, and has been in the long term", shows such a separation from reality on your part that I would wonder how no one has blocked you yet for it. Hijiri 88 (やや) 09:17, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Others are welcome to police Jytdog.
But no-one does.
Andy Dingley (talk) 09:49, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
If none other than you is any concerned with or affected by Jytdog's behaviour (despite the fact that you are not his sole collaborator), it speaks volumes as to why you shall be one-way-IBanned.Thanks for supporting the cause:-) WBGconverse 10:15, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
At least three others posted immediately to User talk:Jytdog#Yakult / User talk:Jytdog#Incivility complaining of his language. It didn't go as far as ANI until he also started reverting and templating me. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:05, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
I guess it was you who sed But no-one does..Best, WBGconverse 12:35, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Andy, if you misquote or misrepresent me one more time, I will start supporting your being indefinitely blocked as opposed to being subject to a one-way IBAN. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:18, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Where have I misquoted you? Or even quoted you? Andy Dingley (talk) 14:12, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Wikilawyering over the supposed distinction between quoting someone's section title and misrepresenting them as supporting some kind of conclusion and "misquoting them" is not a good look. If you cite my message to Jytdog as supporting a sanction against him one more time, I will request that you be blocked. I accepted his apology, as has almost everyone else. Hijiri 88 (やや) 21:13, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose. I will play the devil's advocate here to voice concern, as there is emerging consensus for one way interaction ban, and it should probably be implemented after 24 hours or so. I have a feeling that we are punishing Andy Dingley for their behaviour in this thread, particularly in regards to refusing to drop the stick and move on. Is there another example other than the one in 2016 in which Andy targeted Jytdog's contributions? Anyway, Jytdog has apologised and reflected on their edit, and it should have ended there. Andy should be doing the same thing. In a situation like this where it involves two editors I have worked and enjoy working with, I am always trying to look for a way that would give face-saving option for both parties, but I think that ship has sailed unfortunately. While cool-down blocks ideally should never be an option, in Andy's case I think it may be an alternative if they won't simply just walk away. Alex Shih (talk) 08:17, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
    • We aren't "punishing" Andy Dingley, we are preventing (stopping) his continuing disruption of the past 2.5 years in the form of endless unwarranted "reports" against Jytdog. He has been repeatedly warned, including by administrators, that a one-way IBan would be the next step if he persisted, but as Jytdog and others have noted, Andy Dingley simply can't help himself and routinely erupts in a rampage against Jytdog. You have been away for many long years, but everyone who has been a long-term ANI watcher has seen this unfold over the years and is understandably sick of it and the time-sink and energy-sink it entails. Softlavender (talk) 09:41, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Why is Jytdog allowed to file fake SPIs on me and nothing is done about it?
routinely erupts in a rampage against Jytdog. - for which you have to dredge up a thread from two years ago, the one where Jytdog got his damage to an article into two separate off-wiki media sites! And yet you still portray Jytdog as blameless in everything. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:52, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
There is no stricture against filing an SPI. If it had been deemed unwarranted or "fake" it would have been thrown out. Softlavender (talk) 09:55, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Indeed, I am presenting an perspective from someone unfamiliar with the history. I tried to search through the archives, and these are some of the relevant discussions I have found from the first three pages ([11][12][13][14][15]). The point I am trying to make is that sometimes impressions of a situation are not necessary consistent with empirical evidence; from my rather limited reading through some of the past interaction history (which I will admit that is going to lack a lot of the context), it appears that Jytdog and Andy Dingley had ongoing disputes back in March – April 2016 (noted by both parties), for the most part largely avoided each other before running into disputes again in March 2017 (in which both parties were not blameless). In the meanwhile, Andy occasionally takes a shot at Jytdog as recent as November 2017. On the other hand, Jytdog has promised on many occasions to adjust their aggressive editing approach, but continues to have occasional outbursts that are not always focused on content alone. Obviously, I will reiterate that there is nothing sanctionable here for Jytdog, but still I think it is worthwhile to express this thought on the inevitable outcome of this thread. While one-way interaction against Andy Dingley and even a short block is fully justified here, I think by doing so there is too much weight being put on Andy Dingley (their own fault, of course), and perhaps this was also the sentiment I got from Ad Orientem's oppose. Alex Shih (talk) 11:08, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Thankyou for listing my various crimes and misdemeanours:
  1. Berylliosis – a long thread (you point to just one section) where I first encounter Jytdog and complain about him causing serious inaccuracies to two articles and dismisses other editors for writing ""Garbage content based on garbage sources".
  2. [16] – a complaint about Jytdog, by another party. I make one comment, then described as "Andy gets at basic point here."
  3. Incivility and use of profanity by user Jytdog – another complaint about Jytdog, by another party.
  4. Andy_Dingley – a simple edit-warring content diispute, in which Jytdog isn't involved and I didn't even get notified until after it was closed.
  5. User Jytdog jumps the gun – yet again, another unrelated editor complains of bullying by Jytdog.
And on this basis, you want to block me. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:27, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Strongest possible oppoose: This proposal is basically saying that Jytdog (and presumably any other vested editor who has a sufficiently big fanbase at ANI) can do whatever they want, and anyone who complains about it will get punished, and the original attacks applauded.Nigel Ish (talk) 10:27, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
    • Nigel Ish, please demonstrate how anyone supporting this IBan is in any way part of a "fanbase" of Jytdog (please name names and provide supporting evidence). Please also demonstrate or explain how it means that Jytdog "can do whatever they want". Softlavender (talk) 10:40, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
      • What we have here is a demonstration of someone who has at least a reasonably valid complaint against a long term editor being punished for the complaint, with the issues raised being swept under the carpet. If someone had raised similar complaints against an editor who had just scraped past autoconfirmed had made the comments that Jytdog had made then they would be blocked and banned so quickly that if you blinked you would miss it. If I made those comments, I'm pretty certain that it would not be tolerated. Why should some editors be treated differently - Unless stuff like civility is enforced levelly across the community and is seen to be, then it is clear that ANI is failing.Nigel Ish (talk) 11:06, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
        • In other words, you have no proof whatsoever for your claims. Bringing a longterm editor to ANI for merely calling a grossly promotional article about a product making wild scientific claims (this is how the article looked when he nominated it) "a pile dogshit on the sidewalk" and lamenting that none of the Keep !voters would clean the article up is an utter waste of community time and energy. Jytdog's mini-rant was not a personal attack and was no different than saying something is crap or a crappy article, although it's more colorful. This ANI thread is once again shaping up to be another endless timesink of the sort Andy Dingley is getting the proposal of the IBan for. Softlavender (talk) 11:32, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
@Nigel Ish:: On the contrary, it looks like this is a case of "un-fans" of Jytdog, like Andrew Davidson and David Tornheim, and possibly fans of Andy Dingley, against almost everyone else on ANI. (This assumes that those like AO saying "what Andy did is bad, but so are one-way IBANs" and those like Alex who are believe this hasn't, or shouldn't have, gotten to the point of sanctions, either do not count as being on one "side" or the other, or are part of Jytdog's "fanbase" as you call it because they agree that Andy is the one at fault here.) Hijiri 88 (やや) 11:45, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Well as I (and anyone else who disagrees with the interaction ban and any other form of punishment that gets dreamt up here) appear to be labelled as an "un-fan" of Jytog and a fan of Andy Dingley without any sort of proof or justification, it is clear that disagreement with the ban will not be tolerated and that contrary opinion is unwelcome. As I do not wish to be subject to attack or sanction, I will withdraw from this discussion as my presence clearly isn't welcome by editors like user:Softlavender and user:Hijiri88.Nigel Ish (talk) 12:04, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
I did not "label" you anything, and even if I had it would have been as either a fan of AD or an un-fan of Jytdog. You, rather, labelled me (and almost all the other uninvolved editors here) as "fans of Jytdog", and have refused to withdraw said baseless accusation. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:18, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • oppose: Andy's original complaint here was reasonable albeit misjudged for him to bother making it. Govindaharihari (talk) 11:11, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • oppose per the excellent points Alex brought up. At some point, Jytdog needs to actually start following through on their pledges to be less aggressive in their editing approach. I have no doubts about the good faith of Jytdog - he means well, and he wants the best interests of wikipedia, but his approach is not always good or helpful and at some point, we need to get through to him that he actually needs to improve rather than overstepping and then retracting things. Yes, he retracted his comments in the AfD, but... shouldn't the previous warnings he's supposedly taken on board mean something? Please, Jytdog, take this advice in the spirit it is meant - think more before you post. Read and reread anything that is at all inflamatory and think three times before you post. That would hopefully help you avoid these situations. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:57, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Reluctant support- I'm really not a fan of one-way IBANS. But there's been a long term pattern of behaviour where Andy Dingley decides he doesn't like someone, and then follows them around to dob them in at ANI over trivialities, again and again and again and again and again. This proposal will put an end to the disruption, at least until Dingley picks someone else to campaign against. Reyk YO! 11:57, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose a one-way iBan seems excessive. Looking at the timeline, it appears that Andy was provoked to open this thread after being templated by Jytdog. Lepricavark (talk) 12:37, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
@Lepricavark: That template was placed by Jytdog after Andy pointedly followed them to an article and reverted their edit without proper justification, apparently after having read my message to Jytdog that if anyone tried that he would have a case for complaint. AD manufactured his whole incident, with the intention of getting back at Jytdog for the "fake SPI" he's mentioned about a half dozen times in this thread, back in 2016. Andy provoked Jytdog, because he's still holding a grudge over something that happened years ago; Jytdog did nothing to provoke Andy; and the editors who were actually inappropriately targeted by Jytdog's "colourful" language, myself included, all agree on this point. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:24, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
colourful shit from dog. Dog shit.Govindaharihari (talk) 13:38, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
@Govindaharihari: I haven't seen anything Jytdog has said that even approached "colourful shit from dog". His having "dog" as part of his username does not remotedly justify you calling him a dog! You should retract and apologize for the above immediately, and request an admin remove the edit summary from popublic view. Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:48, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
dog and shit is repeated by the user multiple times. Govindaharihari (talk) 13:59, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Seriously? I don't support Govindaharihari's phrasing here but His having "dog" as part of his username does not remotedly justify you calling him a dog! is a remarkably obtuse loss of memory over Jytdog's own comments (they're quoted at the start of this thread to refresh your memory). Do you really expect anyone to believe your claim here? Andy Dingley (talk) 14:04, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • I did not simpy "revert their edit". Please strike your whole section here, where you claim to read my mind and establish (incorrect) motives for all of it.
My only edit is here. If this was in reaction to Jytdog, it was purely to refute his claim (and specific request) that other editors would be nothing to work on this article. I still stand by that edit: this is an article on a milk product and its nutritional claims (true or false) are where we have to start: so the article needs that (and as you might alo see, I recognise that the section needs to be worked on). Jytdog won't permit this though, and he simply reverted the lot. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:54, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Jytdog removed the "Nutritional information" section here, and you re-added it, word for word, here. Your edit summary was explicit that "restoring" it to before Jytdog's edit was your intention, and your version being identical to the one Jytdog had blanked is made obvious by this diff. Hijiri 88 (やや) 14:19, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose a one-way interaction ban. It takes two to tango, and the one-way ban does not seem to be entirely equitable at this time. That said, I would recommend that Andy Dingley simply avoid Jytdog for some time, and vice versa. North America1000 13:43, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
@Northamerica1000: Do you have evidence that Jytdog hasn't been avoiding Andy? Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:48, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
I've logged my overall opinion at this time after considering this matter. Hijiri, after going through this thread again, you seem to be awfully enthusiastic about only having Dingley banned from speaking, to the point that I am a bit concerned about just how eager you are regarding the matter. You've also added a comment proposing an XfD topic ban for another user above, which is out of process relative to the general thesis of the discussion. Perhaps consider taking a break for a short time, allowing other users to opine without immediate interjections, interrogations and side nominations to immediately also ban other users you do not appear to get along with. North America1000 14:35, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Northamerica1000, I would appreciate a reply as to Hijiri's query.Thanks, WBGconverse 15:03, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
I'll answer this one, which is in this very thread but has been buried by the way this discussion went. Jytdog is fully aware and conscious of their history (as expressed above) with Andy Dingley; Andy did not make an edit, bur rather restored part of the information in Yakult removed by Jytdog with this edit; a good edit? Probably not, but it was neither a revert nor was it done without thinking. Jytdog proceeded to remove the entire section restored in the next three edits (practically a revert, but it was done with reasonable editorial oversight, so there is no problem here) while making this template warning during the process. When you examine separate actions, they are not particularly problematic on their own. But when you take the context into consideration, the "Welcome to Wikipedia" template (being complained by Andy) warning can feel awfully like an baiting attempt (which I am certain is not Jytdog's intention, rather it was an expression of frustration). I am not defending anything here, but to say that Jytdog has been avoiding Andy is contradictory to this inflammatory interaction alone. Alex Shih (talk) 15:31, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Alex Shih, unless I'm missing something, Andy has blown the welcome-template-issue way out of proportion and your comments do not align with my assesment of the situation.
I personally abide by WP:DTTR, (as a matter of etiquette and especially, to not seem patronizing) but it's not any policy or guideline or even a supplement.The first level of user-warnings about Original-research includes a short welcome-message and Jytdog didn't include the phrase out of his own wish.Whilst a better way would have been to leave a customized message, I do not fault him.
Other than Andy's general affection for Jytdog, I do not see a single reason for Andy to land at Yakult. And unless and until, anybody has competency problems or an intention of harassment of particular editors, I do not see how this can be included in the first place.
And, I am frankly appalled that you think Jytdog has not been avoiding Andy.(Unless you mean to state that Jytdog has been wrong about those reverts or he ought to have left them alone.)
This whole piece of mess started because of Andy (and only Andy) and he ought be the sole one who shall be at the receiving end of any sanction. WBGconverse 16:19, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm glad you follow DTTR, it's a good idea. But it's not the main problem here (as I've said repeatedly, it's the reversion and OWNership implied by it).
Why was I at this article but not the AfD? Because I drink Yakult. Yet this seems to be a surprising idea: when I pointed out that I was a vegetarian, thus interested in vat-grown meat stories he accused me of being part of a paid editing group (which he later had to strike). Yes, I admit it, I eat food and I drink milk. I even watchlist articles about those products. Unfortunately I missed the AfD listing for Yakult and didn't see it until the close message on the article.
As to whether my edit at Yakult was a good edit or not, then no it wasn't - but it was a good faith edit, and that's all that matters. We have to start somewhere, then we work to improve on that. We do so as a group, and I still believe that Jytdog is antithetical to such an approach, favouring instead heroic efforts by a single editor. Does the UK Food Standards Agency ref [17] belong there? Yes, of course it does. As Jytdog points out, it doesn't even mention Yakult. But what it does do is to define the UK government's benchmark for when something becomes a "high sugar" food, which is highly relevant to this section. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:46, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
@Alex Shih: You appear to be missing something about Andy's edit to the Yakult article, as it clearly was a revert, per my breakdown here. Andy's claim above that he just happened across the article and decided to edit it because he drinks Yakult, mere hours after Jytdog had edited it, is clearly untenable, and the fact that he has been going on and on and on about very old disputes he has had with Jytdog in the past (Ctrl+F this thread for "fake SPI") appears to be a better indicator of the actual reason. Hijiri 88 (やや) 03:04, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Sorry. Misread your comment. I take a "revert" as being an edit that undoes all or part of another editor's edit, or restores all or part of a previous version of an article. This is, I believe, a fairly common interpretation, and the one that lies behind 3RR, 1RR and 0RR, and even if we are to have a good-faith disagreement over whether it is appropriate in this case to describe Andy's edit as a "revert", it is definitely bad form for Andy to have been arguing constantly that it was not a revert but a new edit intended to improve the article, of the kind Jytdog had said would not be forthcoming from the "keep" !votes in the AFD. He has repeatedly claimed that it was inappropriate for Jytdog to say at the AFD that no one would lift a finger to improve the article and then revert Andy's own attempts to improve the article, a claim which assumes that Andy's own edit was not itself a revert of Jytdog's improvement. Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:26, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
@Northamerica1000: I will take the advice you give in your last sentence, although I must admit that I was a little surprised when I asked you a civil, reasonable question in response to something you had said that didn't make a whole lot of sense, you replied not by answering my question but by jumping down my throat about something completely unrelated. My involvement in this discussion has been in good faith, and it is extremely poor form to respond to a valid question the way you did. (And while it has absolutely zero relationship to my concern about your comment, I should clarify that I do not consider my suggestion that another editor face sanctions for their disruptive commentary in this thread and in the preceding AFD to be "out of process relative to the general thesis of the discussion", whatever that means.) I do not wish to have a drawn out discussion, so I'll leave you to dwell on this while I go back to building the encyclopedia. Hijiri 88 (やや) 03:04, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
I was going to mention the Yakult article, but enough has been said above. North America1000 05:11, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose – We should only be using one-way IBANs when one of the belligerents has done nothing wrong. This is not the case here. Nihlus 13:52, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per the excellent analyses of Alex Shih and North America.--I am One of Many (talk) 14:02, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
How can the explicitly partisant claim by NA1000 that Jytdog shares equal blame here be equated with Alex's explicit statement that he is playing devil's advocate? Did you even read either of the comments you are citing, or are you just !voting the way you already wanted to and citing the names of the two most esteemed editors who technically !voted the same but for mutually conflicting reasons? Hijiri 88 (やや) 14:19, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
My commentary is not partisan. It's my opinion regarding the overall matter. Enough already. North America1000 05:14, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way interaction ban. As usual, Bishonen gets it right. Jytdog overreacted, especially in bring the AFD -- for God's sake, AFD is NOT clean-up nor a reason to vent your loathing of a subject -- but this is just the latest in Andy Dingley's long-term harassment campaign against Jytdog. Whatever Jytdog has done has fuck-all to do the reason for an interaction ban, whatever wahtaboutisms people bring up. And the less said about the religious dogma of "one-way I-bans don't work", the better. --Calton | Talk 14:10, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The OP's complaint was reasonable and warranted. Civility is for everyone. There are no exemptions for editors with pals among admins and ANI regulars. Coretheapple (talk) 14:23, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Hi User:Coretheapple please note this proposal is not just for the breach of Civility. your comment is oversimplifying the whole issue. regards. --DBigXray 15:13, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Pretty simple. User was warned to clean up his language. He hasn't. The remedy is an appropriate block for incivility. Boomerang is designed for situations in which the OP has brought a meritless accusation, but this has merit. Coretheapple (talk) 15:19, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • support. obviously. User:Alex Shih and User:Ad Orientem, I have refrained from commenting much here, but as I respect each of you, I want to explain to you why I have requested the IBAN. Andy does harm when he does this thing - when he follows me to some page and jumps in against me, and then follows up at a drama board. There are two main reasons, laid out in the hatted section below. The first is the harm to content and discussion where he does this. The second are his persistent misrepresentations which are unacceptable behavior per WP:TPNO. Also, if anyone here thinks the OP is actionable, that is still open, and you are free to seek action with respect to that. But Andy opened himself to this by opening this thread, per BOOMERANG and this is a legitimate discussion. I had warned Andy against filing this here, fwiw.Jytdog (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

1) He exacerbates the content and interpersonal issues at the page where he does this stuff; doing active harm there. 2) he makes misrepresentations as he goes which is harmful (and thus defined as "unacceptable" at WP:TPNO).

on 1)
  • as I said in my first diff, when Andy followed me to the dispute at Yakult, he edited badly, restoring policy-violating content from the history, including the dead links that were part of that content and content that is OR and SYN. It is was obviously WP:POINTY in the pure sense of that term. It is obvious that he followed me there, as he had done before as diffed below, and as pointed out by Softlavender here. Andy himself has cited the threads on my talk page that he saw in this diff as well as this diff.
  • as i laid out here (third time this diff has been brought; my apologies, but I will now recapitulate it here), he:
originally got angry with me over the RepRap project kerfluffle that was blogged about off-wiki in March 2016 (see that wonderfully titled ANI thread Rude vulgarian editor where Andy latched on) That case involved an SPI into the filer CaptainYuge (here) who was found to have an alt account, used legitimately, but was not running the disruptive account that was mentioned there.
Around that same time, two (!) people unrelated to RepRap or Andy started a sock-driven harassment campaign against me and some other folks, which were (after a big mess of sorting) were filed under Renameduser024 and Biscuittin. Biscuittin played games with some of their many socks, and in one of them, did some things that made them look just like Andy, which led to the SPI here that Andy still complains about.
Andy later interfered with the SPIs into Biscuittin, disrupting efforts to deal with that socking harassment (their contribs, removal of some by an SPI admin)
in March 2016 Andy took to harassing me at the Berylliosis Talk page, writing (among other things) this where he led in with : How did your "disparage every editor and every source, despite knowing nothing about the subject" strategy work for you on RepRap project? Maybe you'll get three adverse media mentions for Wikipedia this time round? and went on from there with similar remarks, which I warned him about per this and this, and you can see other links there.
their edit at Berylliosis was this edit, restoring a source that violates WP:USERGENERATED. This is exactly parallel to what he did at Yakult, making a bad edit to make a POINT.
In April I launched an AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barack the Magic Negro - Andy was the first to !vote (against the nomination, of course) and was out of sync with the community again. He had never edited the article before - This is really obvious and active stalking)
In April he did this pure trolling of me, on the Talk page of a paid editor.
In Oct 2016 after this notice was left on my talk page, Andy, who had never edited the article, interjected himself into Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alcosynth with this Keep Another behavioural car crash, and Jytdog is in the middle of it. and this comment. (article was gotten rid of via the AfD)
In November, after an advocate who was edit warring promotional, COPYVIO content into an article about a law school left retaliatory note on my page, Andy jumped into the EWN discussion with personal attacks that had nothing to do with the matter at hand here I warned them about that here and he was blocked for 31 hours over that, (block notice).
In March 2017 i was in midst of working to remove advocacy from another article related to effective altruism (these pages had been heavily worked on by the Vipul paid editing entreprise, which is completely unrelated to Andy but which i was starting to clean up after), and was working with two editors with a history of EA advocacy editing (as you can see from their contribs (here for Utsill and here for Kbog) were arguing to keep it. One of the two, Utsill, left a notice on my talk page. And Andy, who had never before edited the article or its talk page (user-search at article, user-search at talk page) jumped in and of course included commentary directed at me, like this. Andy's action here was particularly galling, because a) Kbog, who is becoming reasonable, had proposed a decent compromise when Andy stomped in and blew it up; and b) this only inflamed Utsill, who was especially strongly resisting removing promotionalism from this article.

Every one of those (except the SPI I filed, which was provoked by a sneaky sock spoofing Andy), was initiated by Andy following me and doing pointy things.

on 2), just in this discussion he has
  • misrepresented his own involvement. He characterizes what he did at Yakult as some kind of innocent thing:
afterwards when I start work on the cleanup (diff) or
when someone does start working on it, to simply revert and template them? (diff),
When someone does start, summarily revert them. (diff)
or as personalized against him So why is Jytdog choosing to revert me specifically? Funny that. diff) But he's also abusive to editors he doesn't like. (diff)
but it is very obvious he followed me there, which is his old pattern, as described above. And his edit was bad, as is clear from looking at it. Had nothing to do with him, but with the edit.
  • Misrepresented my remark quoted at the top of this thread in his 1st comment (diff) and several since (diff, as attacks on other editors, which, as several people have pointed out (diff, diff, diff) is not a personal attack (overly harsh criticism of edits and behavior, for sure, but not personal attacks)
  • Misrepresented me completely with Jytdog's complaint that "no-one helps with these articles" (diff). I have never said that. He provides no diff.
  • Misrepresented what I have done since, with Then when other editors do start to show an interest in working on it, they're abused, reverted, berated at their own talk (diff) and reflex-reverting anyone else who gets involved in "his" article. (diff No diffs for that. No one else sees that, because it didn't happen. As was pointed out here.
  • Misrepresented the OR notice I left on their talk page as a "welcome to Wikipedia" notice. (diff), ([(diff)
  • Misrepresented what happened at the Beryliosis page (which was about berylium poisoning, a medical issue, not "metallurgy" as they said here: hiding behind MEDRS on utterly irelevant topics (metallurgy?)
  • Misrepresented this ANI thread as the ANI posting where Jytdog conflated me with a claimed paid editor then had to come back and edit his first posting, then strike it altogether? Again, classic Jytdog behaviour - make some sweeping accusation, then if it's challenged, withdraw it and pretend it never happened (diff) I did strike the beginning as it was just badly written, and restated it at the bottom. I did not withdraw it.
  • Misrepresented the SPI I filed against him as a false SPIs (diff, diff, diff) or fake SPIs (diff) or fatuous SPIs (diff). I had explained what was up with that SPI [here here]. To say it yet again... The "milligansunce" account was a sock; it was claimed by a sock of the sockmaster Biscuittin here. Biscuittin was a particularly sneaky sockmaster who actually made their edits look like Andy's to cause disruption, and generally wasted a ton of people's time before they got bored with playing games. (cases are archived at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Biscuittin/Archive; those overlapped in time with another angry, hounding, socking person who cases are archived at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Renameduser024/Archive. That was a difficult time. Andy saw all that, as he disrupted those SPIs, but he still mischaracterizes what was going on at that time.
  • Misrepresented my GMO topic ban: the self-appointed guardian of COI, despite having a huge one of his own (and a topic ban from GMO as a result) but too secret for mere mortals to know about it. diff). What is he even talking about with "too secret for mere mortals" business? I have no idea.)
In my view, misrepresentations are corrosive with respect to good faith discussion of issues everywhere in WP. I would normally be seeking a block for this sort of thing, but the IBAN will prevent further disruption, at least with respect to me.
The actual personal attacks he's the biggest bully and fraud of the lot. (diff, repeated instead of struck when called on it) and bludgeoning this discussion (28 substantial diffs as of now).

He has been quiet since his block and warning, but his actions at Yakult and his behavior at this thread are the same behavior as before. fwiw, I tried to say something nice to him last summer in the hope of starting to build a relationship. (diff)

So yes, I would like an IBAN and in my view it is well justified. Jytdog (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

  • Thank you, Jytdog. This is detailed and informative, which provides a clear timeline more so than majority of this thread. I have already expressed that one-way interaction ban would be justified, but I have reservations on different grounds. If the end results would be the same, I see no strong reason on why we cannot have a two-way interaction ban. In this case, Jytdog can move on, while Andy has been admonished extensively that any similar editing conduct in the near future would probably result in sanctions. Those who are interested in the nature that led to the interaction ban can see the link to this discussion, and make their own judgement (which, if it is as clear as indicated, shouldn't present a negative light). Alex Shih (talk) 15:57, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your reply.Jytdog (talk) 16:06, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • @Jytdog, when you posted such a large section, why did you pre-hat it as a closed section not to be edited? Do you think I deserve no right of reply to you? Andy Dingley (talk) 17:50, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support two-way, and oppose one-way (partly on principle and partly because I don't see much downside to making it two-way). I feel that I also need to point out: [18] (and [19]), which pushed me over the line into supporting an IBAN here. It's hardly a good indicator of what will happen without an IBAN. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:45, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • oppose as there is no reason why Jytdog cannot just clean up his act, leaving AD with nothing to complain about. After all, if someone on the other side of this content dispute were to edit this way, he would be declared "WP:NOTHERE" and summarily blocked. I don't talk like that anyway, but I think if I did, I would regularly be on the wrong side of AN/I sections. And I say this as someone who tends to come down against this sort of article. Mangoe (talk) 19:23, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • You seem to overlooked the years of harassment by AD. I see no indication -- none -- that he will stop his campaign short of being forced to to. Then there's the whole question-begging about the act that Jytdog is supposed to be cleaning up. --Calton | Talk 19:57, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per all the oppose !votes preceding my own. If there truly is a long-standing feud between the two editors as someone pointed out above, then it takes two to tango and the iban should be for each of them. There's no love lost between me and Andy Dingley, but this seems wholly unfair, partisan, and punitive in spirit. -- ψλ 19:47, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • "If". --Calton | Talk 19:57, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose I don’t think one way I bans are effective. Certainly not in this case. Mr Ernie (talk) 00:27, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way: this ANI has been an exercise in hounding and harassment, and it appears that the issue is on-going and long-standing. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:46, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one-way. Yes, Jytdog can be crude at times, but the work he does is invaluable. On the other hand, frivolous ANI reports of incivility do nothing but waste the community's time.--WaltCip (talk) 11:52, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I don't edit much any more but I spend a lot of time on a university campus helping faculty and students work with Wikipedia through the official education program. This filing caught my eye because Jytdog's demeanor and aggressive attitude is one of the most damaging things I deal with on a weekly basis. The way he interacts with people discourages editing in general and I've had numerous people put off becoming regular editors because of their encounters with Jytdog. The fact that anyone is defending his behavior with a straight face (or suggestion interaction bans as a solution to problems dealing with him) says a lot about what Wikipedia has become. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 17:27, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry to hear about that, and we can discuss that issue at your talk page. I'll open a discussion there. That said, this subthread is about Andy's behavior (see tight description in the "why" box above). If you think I should be sanctioned, the place to deal with that is above. Jytdog (talk) 17:35, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
And, before someone decides to crucify me for it, yes, I understand that we have the right to not communicate with other users. But, in my opinion, there are more tactful ways to go about it than to make grandiose shows of doing so. A simple "I've said all that I'm going to say about this subject", or, perhaps even better, simply ignoring comments and not responding in any fashion, would accomplish the same objective and not be so bitey. StrikerforceTalk 18:27, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Close challenge[edit]

Closing. To summarize. Decision not going to change. Jytdog's conduct, if it needs examination, can be done so in a separate report. Many repeated arguments so best to move on everyone. --regentspark (comment) 22:03, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Ivanvector can you please revisit this close? Including the proposer's comment, there were 23 !votes supporting the 1 way I-Ban, and 23 !votes Opposing. I'm not sure that this equals a "clear consensus." Mr Ernie (talk) 14:02, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I did not count heads here but considered the context of the arguments, as I've explained in my closing statement. I noted that many of the bolded "oppose" comments recognized the problematic nature of Andy Dingley's behaviour and suggested sanctions of some kind. I can't think of any more to add to further clarify what I've already written. If other admins disagree with my assessment then by all means let's discuss alternatives. If this is just about counting heads, I think we should all go do something else. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:08, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
I'm with Mr Ernie here. I don't see the consensus for a one-way ban. Jytdog's issues, in general, in interacting with those with whom they disagree should have been considered more in this discussion than it appears that they were. As I stated in the discussion, I might be willing to support a two-way ban, but to only sanction one party here is, I think, not in the best interests of the community and doesn't set a good precedent. StrikerforceTalk 14:12, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
I've also addressed this in the second bullet of my closing statement, but this one I will clarify because I can see how this may be a sticky point. I did say there's recognition in the discussion that Jytdog's approach to interactions such as these has been subpar, but also that while the problem with Andy's behaviour is limited to interactions with Jytdog, the problem with Jytdog's interactions is not limited to any particular user, and so there wasn't consensus that enacting the same iban for Jytdog would be a useful solution. If you want to open or continue a discussion about Jytdog's conduct then by all means do so. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:32, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
This is a lot to read so apologies if I've missed a bit.
  • "Andy's behaviour is limited to interactions with Jytdog"
  • "Jytdog's interactions is not limited to any particular user"
  • THEREFORE: Block Andy.
So because Jytdog is abusive to everyone, he gets away with it? How does that work?
I don't edit here much but I've encountered both of these editors before. I'm also in Bath so I saw the complete mess Jytdog made of RepRap. How does he get to write stuff like the first post here and get away with that? Isnt that stuff just a straight out block?
So OPPOSE this one-way ban. Viam FerreamTalk 15:54, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
You got almost all of that wrong, including the fact that Andy was not blocked, he was given an IBan. If you want to start a new thread about Jytdog's general behavior, by all means do so. Softlavender (talk) 16:15, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
Aye, I think a lot of the Oppose votes either were of the type "I don't like 1-way IBans" (which, without any further context to this case, are not useful), and others talked about Jytdog's behaviour, which was not the issue here. Black Kite (talk) 14:13, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
See WP:CLUE. The close is bold but IMO correct.