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IiKkEe's stylistic changes that leave articles, especially medical articles, in an inaccurate state and/or state of disarray[edit]

At various articles, especially medical articles, and especially with regard to the leads, IiKkEe makes unnecessary stylistic changes that often leave the text in a less accurate, simply inaccurate, and/or sloppy state. It's not unusual for these edits to not align with Wikipedia's policies or guidelines. It's not unusual for IiKkEe to change the context and/or meaning of things, and to give WP:Undue weight to things. And this includes articles that are of WP:Good or WP:Featured status. The editor can make many edits in a row, which, in addition to usually needing to be reverted or tweaked, can take up a lot of time when reviewing the changes. And the editor's content is sometimes unsourced. As seen here, here and here, the editor has also been known to edit war just to retain their edits. The editor has gotten a bit better about this over time, being more willing to go to the talk page to discuss, but it's not enough. Discussion can consist of the editor wanting their way, and then editing the article in some other problematic fashion if they don't get their way.

To get right into this matter, see the examples below.

Examples of IiKkEe's problematic editing, spanning years.
  • In March to April 2015, IiKkEe's edits to the Hypertension article, a GA article, were such an issue that an editor felt that that "it may need to be delisted now." IiKkEe responded by, for example, saying, "I agree the article was a good article and I acknowledge the major contribution you have made to it. I don't think that I completely reworked the article: I did make 134 specific edits with a justification for each in the Edit history notes, and I believe each were an improvement to an already good article. I could be wrong: please feel free to critique one, some, or all of my edits on the Talk page and voice your specific objections, and we can discuss them there in a spirit of mutual respect with the aim of reaching a consensus." Right there IiKkEe acknowledges making a whopping 134 edits, or however many edits, to the article. The editor who complained replied, "I have made almost no contributions to it - which just goes to show that you took almost no time to understand the standing of the article. I just noticed that you acted with terrible arrogance, and we probably need to delist the article." Indeed, IiKkEe's 2015 edits to the article contain numerous errors or issues, and, to save time, I can only point to a few. After the article was restored to its GA status, IiKkEe still needed to be reverted. For example, here, where the editor changed the text to state "fast heart rate at rest" (which contrasts what resting heart rate and tachycardia state), here where the changes were labeled confusing and it was noted that the definitions were already provided in preceding sentences, here where the editor removed an entire section that needed to be restored, here where the editor added birth control as a cause of hypertension (although birth control can be sourced as an increased risk), and here where the editor called a study a treatment.
  • In April 2015, IiKkEe made this edit to the Cushing's syndrome article, stating, "clarify causes of excess cortisol in MEN I and Carney complex." This had to be reverted, because, as stated on IiKkEe's talk page, it's not two hereditary diseases that cause Cushing's syndrome. "More than two diseases cause pituitary adenomas." It was noted that the editor also "added details that are not supported by the ref in question."
  • In April 2018, at the Animal article, IiKkEe's had to be reverted on one of their edits that removed something as "unneeded." The article had just reached good article status via Chiswick Chap's hard work. And then there were more accuracy issues with IiKkEe's edits to the article in December 2018.
  • In October 2018 at the Blackmail article, where I think I first encountered IiKkEe, I reverted IiKkEe because the editor added unsourced text in place of sourced text, and gave the unsourced and unencyclopedic example of "Buy me that necklace or I'm not going out with you." The editor tried a different version, I reverted again, took the matter to the talk page, and contacted WP:LAW. As noted by an editor on the talk page, issues with IiKkEe's edits included the fact that blackmail is not a statutory offense in every jurisdiction, and that "there is no need to separate the common and legal definition—it is the same definition written in a different way." The lead issues were remedied, but not before IiKkEe made a mess of the lead.
  • In March 2019, IiKkEe made edits to the Obsessive–compulsive disorder article, which included IiKkEe asserting that "feel the need to check things repeatedly" was redundant to what was there. I reverted, stating, "Checking things repeatedly is not necessarily performing certain routines repeatedly. And we use 'or' for a reason. Maybe discuss on the talk page?" IiKkEe kept at it. Didn't bother discussing on the talk page. I took the matter to the talk page, stating, "IiKkEe, you need to discuss your changes because you are changing the context or meaning of some material. Keep in mind that this is a medical article, which is why WP:MEDRS has high standards. Why not just to stick to what the sources state? When reverting you here, I stated that checking things repeatedly is not necessarily performing certain routines repeatedly. For example, a person with OCD might feel the need to repeatedly check for an email reply. But this doesn't mean that doing so is a routine for them. After all, that is just one email reply. Once the other person replies, that matter is over. The person with OCD might not communicate via emails enough for repeatedly checking emails to become a routine. You went back to changing the lead. You made it so that the lead states 'the need to perform certain routines repeatedly such as checking on the status of something (rituals),' which led Doc James to remove 'checking on the status of something (rituals).' It's best to just leave the lead as it was and include 'feel the need to check things repeatedly,' just like we do in the infobox." In that same discussion, Doc James stated, "It is important to be actively reading the sources when text is adjusted." Since then, the lead of that article still doesn't have "feel the need to check things repeatedly." This is because I didn't feel like dealing with IiKkEe anymore at that time. And where the text used to state "Common activities include hand washing, counting of things, and checking to see if a door is locked.", it now states, "Common compulsions include hand washing, counting of things, and checking to see if a door is locked." The lead still needs tweaking since feeling the need to check on things repeatedly and performing certain routines repeatedly are both compulsions, but they aren't necessarily the same thing.
  • In April 2019, at the Concussion article, IiKkEe spoke of "copy edit[ing] for accuracy." But like Doc James stated on IiKkEe's talk page, "What is this 'over 15 is interpreted as no traumatic brain injury (TBI)'? Are you reading the sources in question? There is no such thing as a score over 15." And Doc James, who watches a lot of medical articles, if not most of them, has had to revert IiKkEe at various articles, as the next few examples will show.
  • In August 2019, at the Heart failure, Doc James had to revert this ("also known as") because it's not "formerly called congestive heart failure", and he had to restore text to its more accurate or just plain accurate form, after IiKkEe's edits. In September at the same article, he had to revert this unsourced material that IiKkEe added. And here he reverted IiKkEe, because, in his words, the text "did not make sense."
  • In October 2019, at the Osteoarthritis article, Doc James reverted IiKkEe because of unreferenced material and because he was correcting IiKkEe's incorrect material.
  • In October 2019, at the Human papillomavirus infection article, Doc James fixed IiKkEe's edits because "it is a step wise process, goes from precancerous to cancerous." Here he was clear about IiKkEe's edits not being supported by a reference. Here he was clear that "no ref [was] provided" and that he was reverting IiKkEe "to better match the source." No reference for this either. This edit shows Doc James reverting one of the stylistic changes where IiKkEe felt the need to explain what a Pap test is. This edit shows Doc James reverting back to a WP:MEDMOS setup (which IiKkEe has been made aware of times before, including on their talk page). Another MEDMOS revert by Doc James here.
  • Also in October 2019, at the Subconjunctival bleeding article, Doc James repeatedly adjusted material, as seen, for example, here and here after IiKkEe's edits, and reverted IiKkEe here (after this change) because "usually it is one blood vessel, not multiple."
  • Even with this October 20, 2019 edit at the HPV-positive oropharyngeal cancer article, there's a problem with what seems to have been meant to be a simple copyedit...because IiKkEe removed "lack of any such evidence of a primary tumour" from the "occurs in 2-4% of patients presenting with metastatic cancer in the cervical nodes" text as redundant. So right now the text says "The occurs in 2-4% of patients presenting with metastatic cancer in the cervical nodes." What occurs?
  • Today, at the Masturbation article, IiKkEe made edits like this, where IiKkEe strays from the source, saying, "delete unneeded and inaccurate 'or other sexual pleasure'. IMO it is only for sexual arousal." So IiKkEe calls "or other sexual pleasure" inaccurate based on his or her opinion? The first source clearly says "to achieve sexual arousal and pleasure." And the third source clearly says "for the purpose of sexual pleasure and/or orgasm." The only reason that our Wikipedia article says "or other sexual pleasure" instead of "and sexual pleasure" is because sexual arousal in this context falls under "sexual pleasure." With this edit, IiKkEe replaced "usually to the point of orgasm" with the "with or without inducing an orgasm" wording, stating that the new wording is more accurate. Again, "more accurate" according to whom? To IiKkEe? The first source clearly says "to achieve sexual arousal and pleasure, usually to the point of orgasm (sexual climax)." And the third source clearly says "for the purpose of sexual pleasure and/or orgasm." A variety of other sources also stress the orgasm part. People usually don't masturbate without achieving orgasm.

There are a lot of other examples of IiKkEe's changes that leave articles in compromised states, but I focused on the examples I reviewed and some that are mentioned on IiKkEe's talk page. This Potassium article example is another from IiKkEe's talk page. IiKkEe can be polite enough when interacting with editors, but being polite isn't enough to negate editing/competence issues. Furthermore, as indicated by this section on IiKkEe's talk page, IiKkEe has a tendency to thank editors via WP:Echo and go right back to editing disruptively. I've experienced this with regard to IiKkEe and other editors whose edits were riddled with issues. It can have the effect of seeming antagonistic even when it's not meant to be.

IiKkE's editing reminds me Anthony22's editing, except that Anthony22's problematic stylistic changes mainly concerned biographies. He was recently "indefinitely topic banned by the community from making stylistic and grammatical changes, broadly construed, to any article on English Wikipedia." Original thread on that is seen here. I'm not sure what the best remedy should be in IiKkEe's case, but if the community decides that he should refrain from editing medical articles, this should be broadly construed to include anatomy and sexuality articles since they often overlap and IiKkEe has edited problematically at some anatomy articles (such as Nephron) and questionably at a few sexual topic articles thus far. I just know that something needs to be done. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:38, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Like Flyer22 Reborn said, there are many more examples of this behavior. Here are just a few that I've seen over the last 2 weeks:
  • Here they changed "usually involves" to "is" purely for being "more direct", but had to be reverted because it ignored that sources vary.
  • Here they removed "typically" in the 1st sentence, which caused it to be only about the female genitalia and making it contradict the 3rd sentence about the anus.
  • Here at Oral sex they changed the 1st sentence significantly by changing "or" to "and". It went from saying "(including the lips, tongue, or teeth) or throat" to "including the lips, tongue, and teeth; and the throat".
  • At the same article, they changed "female genitals" to "vulva", which had to be changed to "vulva or vagina".
  • IiKkEe then, because they wanted the terminology to be "comparable", changed the sentence from "Cunnilingus is oral sex performed on the vulva or vagina, while fellatio is oral sex performed on the penis" to "Cunnilingus is oral sex performed on the female genitalia - the vulva and vagina - while fellatio is oral sex performed on the male genitalia - the penis and scrotum". Thus, they again made up their own definition for fellatio. They were rightly reverted. I also replied to them on the talk page.
Again, these are just a few very recent examples from just a few articles that IiKkEe has edited. This editor seems to put their own subjective and often poor style opinions ahead of sourcing and common usage. This results in problems, as explained by Flyer22 Reborn.
As shown by her examples, this appears to be an ongoing problem over many years. IiKkEe should have learned better by now. -Crossroads- (talk) 17:58, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
  • User:Flyer22 Reborn thanks for raising this. I share your concerns. It is not clear if IiKkEe actually reads the sources in question or simple changes text to what they personally feel is better.
  • In this edit[1] they changed correct text to first "a Glasgow Coma Scale score of 13 to 15 (under 13 is interpreted as no traumatic brain injury(TBI) and over 15 as moderate or severe TBI)."
  • Than in this edit they changed it further[2] "a Glasgow Coma Scale score of 13 to 15 (over 15 is interpreted as no traumatic brain injury(TBI), 9-12 as moderate TBI, under 9 as severe TBI)."
  • There is NO such thing as a GCS of greater than 15. Gah. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:48, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
They are one of a certain type of difficult editor, who just tinkers carelessly or beyond their capacity. They have been around since 2014, very rarely engaging on their talk page. This pattern suggests English language competence may be a factor here. A widescreen topic ban may well be the only remedy. Johnbod (talk) 14:04, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
I was mixed up with the Anthony22 issue a month or so ago and I agree that it's a big issue. In this case, it is even worse since he is making a flurry of small but significant changes to articles that alter the meaning (often making them inaccurate). This type of edit is hard for a user who is not a subject matter expert (e.g. someone like Doc James) to patrol since it is not overtly vandalism. It wouldn't be a big deal if this user was responsive on the talk page but he isn't -- like Anthony he just does whatever he wants and leaves it up to others to clean up after him. If this user is willing to be more responsive and to stop making such changes without discussion, I would be OK with letting it go but so far he hasn't been. (talk) 19:58, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
Since the editor continues to edit articles while making no response to the complaint here, I've blocked them for 48 hours. Any admin can lift this block if they become convinced that User:IiKkEe can and will change their editing behavior to answer these concerns. EdJohnston (talk) 18:15, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for assessing this, EdJohnston. I wouldn't state that IiKkEe is as unresponsive as Anthony22 usually is, considering that IiKkEe is significantly more open to responding on his (or her) talk page, but I don't see that IiKkEe's behavior will change at all. Like you noted on IiKkEe's talk page, they continued editing while concerns were being expressed in this thread. And IiKkEe's response indicates that IiKkEe still isn't willing to comment in this thread. IiKkEe stated, "Who are you? Who do I discuss this with? I assume with an objective administrator assigned to look into the accusations, not one of my accusers. I am not familiar with this process." So IiKkEe appears to be stating that this case is in administrators' hands alone. Also, one does not need to be familiar with the process to take the time to respond in an ANI thread about their problematic behavior. Once the 48 hour block expires, IiKkEe will keep on editing the way they have before. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:40, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
  • After a discussion at User talk:IiKkEe#ANI, I unblocked IiKkEe so they could respond to the issues raised here. I suggested focusing on a small number of key points. IiKkEe has asked for "a few days" which seems excessive to me, however, there should be a response before further editing occurs. Johnuniq (talk) 22:20, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Considering that threads on ANI are archived after a certain timeframe, IiKkEe's responses should come before this thread is set to archive. Either that, or it will continue to need a new comment to keep it from archiving or it should be tagged with User:DoNotArchiveUntil. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:10, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Added DNAU template to keep this alive until discussion takes place. If there is no response from the user within a week, then we should probably move on to an indef. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 18:32, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

My reply. I may not be able to complete this in one sitting. Please allow me to finish before responding.

Based on the above criticisms, I will take the following actions:

First, I volunteer to stop editing WP for 3 months ie until February 1, 2020.

Second, I propose the following for any of my future edits: 1) I will not edit any article that Flyer22 Reborn has edited. 2) I will place a notice on the Talk page of any article I plan to edit, which will include which one paragraph or section I plan to edit, and will invite scrutiny of my edits. I will also notify any major active contributor(s) at that site. 3) I will accept any reversions of my edits and discuss them on the Talk page if I have questions. 4) I will make no more than 10 edits per day to any Article. 5) I will add a reference to any edit which changes the meaning of that already referenced sentence.

Third, I will respond to the speculation that I am not fluent in English, and that I am not qualified to edit the articles I have chosen to edit. I was born and have always lived in the United States; I am fluent in English. I graduated from Rice University with a BS in Biology. Undergraduate courses included physics, general chemistry, quantitative chemistry, organic chemistry, biochemistry, geology, anthropology, comparative anatomy, physiology, histology, and electrical engineering. I am a physician, a graduate of an American medical school, Board certified in Internal Medicine, and an Assistant Professor at an American Health Science Center. I lecture to second year medical students in my area of expertise. I have reviewed articles submitted to the New England Journal of Medicine for accuracy and format. I have participated in clinical research published in peer reviewed medical journals. I have published a single-authored textbook of Internal Medicine purchased and used by thousands of medical students.

Next, I will respond to Flyer22 Reborn's criticism of my editing based on direct interactions with me plus a reading of my Talk page. I believe there are fourteen articles/edits discussed. I suggest that these are not representative of my total work product at WP: I have been editing for 5 1/2 years; my guess is that I have submitted around 17,000 edits to around 500-700 articles, and interacted civilly, amicably, and productively with around 1000 fellow editors. Most have shown appreciation for my edits either at my Talk page, clicking "Thank you", or by giving tacit approval by reading my edits and not reverting or modifying them. I would guess that over 90 per cent of my 17,000 edits still stand as written today. However, I have run up against about a dozen editors over the years who verbalize outright scorn for my edits, reverting them in toto. My reaction to this is to move on to some other article.

Next, I will address the allusion to edit warring. It is correct that twice I have been *accused* of edit warring. But I have never been turned in for or investigated for that allegation. When I asked for details of at which edits exactly I had done this, none were provided. Perhaps on two occasions I was *perceived* as edit warring.

[I have been interrupted by the duties of the day. I will return shortly. Again, please do not respond until I have had a chance to finish. Thanks.] IiKkEe (talk) 15:11, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

  • Just noting that it has been more than two days since IiKkEe said they would "return shortly." WMSR (talk) 01:54, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
I feel that I should simply go ahead and reply to IiKkEe's comments. It's been days. I've waited for the editor to come back here and add more. So, to begin, IiKkEe stating that they "will not edit any article that Flyer22 Reborn has edited" only solves my personal frustration of dealing with IiKkEe unless I go to an article after the editor has edited it because I stumbled across it, I was asked for help there, or the article was brought to WP:Med's attention. It doesn't resolve the issues with IiKkEe's edits. IiKkEe would still be editing a lot of articles that Doc James is at, but that I'm not at, and leaving those articles in an inaccurate state and/or state of disarray. Placing a notice on the article talk page of any article they plan to edit will simply serve as a heads up. And although IiKkEe says they would be open to scrutiny of their edits and will also notify any major active contributors to that talk page, I worry about the articles that don't have any major active contributors and that, if those articles do have any, those contributors may not be interested in scrutinizing editors' edits; those contributors may also not understand the topic well or well enough to spot IiKkEe's errors. And as for IiKkEe's guess that "over 90 per cent of [their] 17,000 edits still stand as written today," that's a guess and it doesn't mean none of those edits need fixing. If they do need fixing, it just means that no one has noticed and/or gotten around to fixing them. Also, various Wikipedia articles lack traction, which is can also explain IiKkEe's claim that they "have run up against about a dozen editors over the years" who have objected to their edits, if IiKkEe is simply speaking of objection and not specifically "verbaliz[ing] outright scorn for [their] edits." IiKkEe's claim that their "reaction to this is to move on to some other article" is not entirely accurate, since the editor (as displayed by my evidence) is known to try to retain their edits and only moves on after that, but is also likely to return to the article at a later date. But if one or more admins want to give IiKkEe's conditions a try per WP:ROPE, I suppose we can go with that. If that's the case, Doc should be pinged to see what he thinks. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:54, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree that the incomplete response is unsatisfactory. At their talk I specifically mentioned that an examination of an above claim ("it is not clear if IiKkEe actually reads the sources in question or [simply] changes text to what they personally feel is better") was needed. The response above does not address any of the issues because listing qualifications is not useful. However, this might have to be deferred until activity resumes and any new problems are reported. Johnuniq (talk) 02:01, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Flyer22 Reborn (talk) and Johnuniq (talk). Thank you for responding to what I have written thus far, that is very helpful to me. I will make the following observations before continuing with my original response, if that is even necessary: 1)Regarding the dozen or so editors I alluded to who have reverted all of my edits with a single click, my statement was that when I have encountered this situation, I accepted their reversion; and I, not they, moved on to other articles. It was clear to me they were not interested in my input, so I did not challenge the reversions even though I believed my edits improved the Article in question. 2) Johnuniq (talk), I addressed my qualifications because of the suggestion that perhaps I am not qualified to edit the articles I have chosen to edit. I agree that qualifications are off-topic here. 3) It is true that I thought I understood the Glasgow Coma scale, but I did not, and Doc James corrected my error. I made a mistake. 4) I am not sure if I have ever edited a sentence which was referenced without reading the reference. I certainly agree not to do that in the future. I know the majority of my edits are directed toward the Leads of articles, where as you know there is no requirement for references since it is a summary of the article, and most sentences are not referenced, although references are occasionally included there. 5) Johnuniq (talk), if there are any other issues that you feel my response has not covered, please point them out. 6) Johnuniq (talk), I love the suggestion that "this might have to be deferred until activity resumes and any new problems are reported." I suggest we go with that. Thank you and Regards, IiKkEe (talk) 11:55, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Interesting that you chose to respond so soon after my and Johnuniq's comments. I stand by what I stated regarding your initial above comment. And as for leads, citations in the lead are sometimes necessary per WP:CITELEAD. And as for you saying you "will add a reference to any edit which changes the meaning of that already referenced sentence," a reference supporting something doesn't mean that the reference is WP:Due or even a quality reference. The definition you might be changing might be the common definition and you may be adding a minority definition, as you have done in the past. I don't agree with putting this issue (your problematic editing) aside and waiting for you to continue in the same vein, not without you agreeing to abide by your suggested restrictions. I don't see the point of your "stop editing WP for 3 months ie until February 1, 2020" restriction, though; so I'm discounting that. In my opinion, you have simply stalled and stalled, waiting for this thread to go away so that you can continue editing as usual. You continuing to edit will result in problems, as outlined above. You have been doing this for years. The problems have not magically gone away because of this thread and because you haven't been editing lately. Again, the only way that I will agree to let you continue editing is if you adhere to your proposed restrictions and WP:ROPE is kept in mind. Pinging Crossroads, Doc James, Johnbod, EdJohnston, HandThatFeeds, and WMSR for their thoughts. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 12:45, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
I find it disheartening that IiKkEe love[s] the suggestion of deferring this issue. And indeed, if the user is legitimately a board-certified physician, it is highly problematic that he felt confident enough to make a substantive edit to Glasgow Coma Scale and was wrong. Something is not checking out. WMSR (talk) 14:51, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

IiKkEe's proposed editing restrictions and WP:ROPE[edit]

As seen above, IiKkEe has proposed the following editing restrictions:

1) I will not edit any article that Flyer22 Reborn has edited.
2) I will place a notice on the Talk page of any article I plan to edit, which will include which one paragraph or section I plan to edit, and will invite scrutiny of my edits. I will also notify any major active contributor(s) at that site.
3) I will accept any reversions of my edits and discuss them on the Talk page if I have questions.
4) I will make no more than 10 edits per day to any Article.

Above, I stated, "if one or more admins want to give IiKkEe's conditions a try per WP:ROPE, I suppose we can go with that." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:05, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

  • Support: To repeat, IiKkEe stating that they "will not edit any article that Flyer22 Reborn has edited" only solves my personal frustration of dealing with IiKkEe unless I go to an article after the editor has edited it because I stumbled across it, I was asked for help there, or the article was brought to WP:Med's attention. It doesn't resolve the issues with IiKkEe's edits. But if others can agree to all of IiKkEe's proposed ristrictions on the basis of WP:ROPE, I can as well. I left out their number five proposal because, to reiterate, IiKkEe saying they "will add a reference to any edit which changes the meaning of that already referenced sentence" doesn't mean that the reference is WP:Due or even a quality reference. The definition IiKkEe might be changing might be the common definition and IiKkEe may be adding a minority definition, as IiKkEe has done in the past. I'm also not sure about proposal 4. It's clearly meant to address IiKkEe's tendency to make a lot of edits to an article and those edits likely needing scrutinizing, but it seems like limiting an editor to just ten edits per day is something that should be temporary, or that the restriction should be changed to "ten edits per article." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:05, 13 November 2019 (UTC) Updated post. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:18, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I'll Support per Flyer22 and WP:ROPE, though I have a feeling we'll be right back here in a month. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:19, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support per above. -Crossroads- (talk) 16:57, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support per Flyer22 and WP:ROPE; it is a good faith proposal by IiKkEe, but I hope they realize that there is an underlying material problem regarding their editing style that could see them back at ANI if not addressed. Britishfinance (talk) 19:11, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
    • Thank you to the five of you who support allowing me to return to editing with the restrictions I am imposing on myself. To clarify, my original proposed restriction is for 10 edits per article per day, not 10 edits per day. And my reason for volunteering to stop editing until Feb 1, 2020, was not to dodge the issue. It was because I was unaware of how long it might take to answer all subsequent questions so that hopefully I might resume editing. Third clarification: I stated that I loved the suggestion that I be allowed to resume editing with my proposed restrictions, not that I loved deferring the process. Regards, IiKkEe (talk) 16:11, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Unblock request now at two+ weeks, editor apologized, seems simple enough?[edit]

More than 14 (full 2 weeks ago) ago Tatzref (talk · contribs) received an indef block from User:El C following a report here. Tatzref requested an unblock on his talk page (User_talk:Tatzref#ANI) shortly after, but so far it has not been reviewed (besides me only two other non-admins commented in the relevant discussions, as well as El C who declined to take any further action). I think it is quite unfair to leave an editor dangling for that long; either tell him he is not welcome here for the rest of his life or unblock him. As far as I can tell, Tatzref was accusing of violating WP:OUTING, but while I cannot access the revdel versions, he states that he only suggested that another editor name should have been revealed in a newspaper article (which already named three other Wikipedians, all of them however disclosed their identity publicly). He did not post any name or other private information on Wikipedia or anywhere else, and he did not even speculate about what it may be, he just said that it should be disclosed. El C noted in his reply that Tatzref posted some urls that "seemed highly suspicious at the time and [were] factored into the block" but "on closer examinations [are] actually fine". I do not believe that Tatzref did anything that warrants more than a warning; suggesting that someone's identity should be revealed is in bad taste but it is not OUTING (we don't penalize thoughtcrime, right?). Further mitigating circumstances to consider are the fact that the editor Taztref was referring to has been himself indef blocked by ArbCom for off wiki harassment, of which Tatzref might have been a victim off (I am not sure about that) and regardless of any connection here that Tatzref himself was recently subject to pretty nasty off wiki harassment which he documents on his talk page. So if he lost his nerves a bit, it is somewhat understandable. In either case, in his unblock request Taztref apologized and promised to be careful in the future: "If I did contravene the Wikipedia policy in any way it was unintentional, as the policy does not address this situation, and I apologize for having done so. Had I received a warning, which I believe would have been the appropriate course of action, I would have taken heed. If I am unblocked, I undertake not to discuss the matter further.". Given that per WP:INDEF "Indefinite blocks are usually applied when there is significant disruption or threats of disruption, or major breaches of policy... As with all blocks, it is not a punishment. It is designed to prevent further disruption, and the desired outcome is a commitment to observe Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and to stop problematic conduct in future." think that Tatzref should be unblocked, since he clearly promised to be careful in areas related to OUTING in the future. At least, assuming there is any shred of truth behind it when we say that blocks and such are preventative, not punitive. Seriously, if he did out someone, saying sorry may not cut it, but saying that someone should be outed and apologizing for it later is hardly an indication of hardcore vandal deserving an instant ban... Thoughts? Endorse indef, shorten, unblock, issue any further warning? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:10, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Piotrus, did you ask El C? Guy (help!) 09:36, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
User_talk:El_C#Your_block_of_Tatzref. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:48, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. Added to the head of this request. Guy (help!) 10:05, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I'd be inclined to endorse the block, but unblock on the basis of "time served" given that the events were highly charged and the issue is now largely moot. Guy (help!) 10:11, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Uninvolved editors should not be posting requests to review unblocks here. There are many blocked editors who have been waiting in the queue for a while. Asking admins to handle some random person's request is not fair to the other editors. Someone will eventually get around to the unblock request. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:47, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
    • Letting potentially unjustly blocked editors languish indefinitely isn't fair either. Tatzref has been blocked for two weeks, and you're saying there's people who've had their unblock requests left sitting for even longer than that. I think that's not a satisfactory situation, so maybe periodic reminders that the unblock request backlog is kinda long would be a good thing. Reyk YO! 11:34, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
      I had a quick look and Tatzref's unblock request does seem to be at the long end although I was hampered by below. Most others with longer requests either seemed to be the sort of insane requests where the editor had made many unblock requests and I guess no one could be bothered working out if they should kill talk page access do they just let it languish. Quite a few of the long ones also looked like they were socking cases so may require CU comment, or at least may require significant work (if the editor denied socking). Nil Einne (talk) 12:07, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
      Someone changed my subthread into a thread. I don't really mind since it's 50/50 whether it should be a subthread (it arises out of this, but it's only very minorly related), but to be clear when I said below I mean #Username change and unblock request. Nil Einne (talk) 13:00, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
    NinjaRobotPirate, meh, no biggie I reckon. This is not a third party unblock request, after all, and people are allowed to have mates on Wiki. Guy (help!) 14:11, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Piotrus, a thought stays in someone's head. A call to out an editor's real-life identity is not a "thought" —it is an outing effort— so the notion of a thought crime somehow having been enforced in this case seems rather spurious. As for the unblock request, as stated, I'd rather someone else attends to it as they see fit. El_C 16:48, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

  • El_C A public suggestion to act against a policy is not a policy violation, and is justifiable by WP:IAR. In response, we can tell people that violating policy is a bad idea. But blocking them for a suggestion is not far from thoughtcrime. If I were to say 'I think we should vandalize an article if we feel stressed', that would be a pretty stupid idea, but would you block me for saying this in a discussion? OUTING clearly states "Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person has voluntarily posted their own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia ... attempted outing is sufficient grounds for an immediate block." It does not state that suggesting such an action should be taken is a policy violation. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:19, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
  • That is a stretch. Policies are not created equal and this isn't a philosophical debate — on the contrary, it involves the lives of real people. At any case, vandalism is something that can be quickly corrected, but being outed could have permanent lasting effects. And they were not arguing to change the policy on outing, in general. Rather, they identified a particular individual as a target for outing. Painting that attempt as some harmless, fleeting thought is a distortion. El_C 17:11, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't understand why you would split the discussion. El_C 03:59, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Because WP:FORUMSHOPPING. He raised it twice here, once on Tatzref's TP and once on yours. I won't be surprised if we next see it on the Signpost: "Honest editor suggests Jewish conspiracy and paid editing, blocked by stray admin. Appeal to ArbCom ongoing." François Robere (talk) 13:31, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Not split. Here we are discussing specific incident, there we can discus if it is generalization in terms of policy modifications (should suggestion of outing be acted on just like outing itself). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:48, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

I also encourage the reviewing admin (and all other admins, as well) to read closely the redacted edits here and here, especially in regards to Tatzref's claim of an "Israeli/Jewish POV network." El_C 16:59, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

  • Since I receive a copy of the redacted edits, I've reviewed this, and what I see is a statement that "there is a far stronger case for the existence of an Israeli/Jewish POV network than a Polish one" [in reference to the newspaper article covered in recen Signpost issue which makes a claim that a Polish one exists]. Shrug. His view is debatable, WP:NOTAFORUM might be invoked and discussion closed if it is irrelevant for encyclopedia building, but how does it relate to indef block I have not a faintest clue. PS. Come to think of it, since no public information was revealed, I am not sure if said redacted edits should have been or should stay redacted at all. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:19, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I operate under the notion that we have a low tolerance toward depictions which resemble Jewish conspiracies. What is even a "POV network" (how is that even established?) and why single out an "Israeli/Jewish" one vis-a-vis a Polish one? Obviously, there are two sides to Antisemitism in Poland debate, but a POV network? Really? Anyway, any admin is free to un-revdelete those revisions at any time, I have no objection. But as already mentioned, I'd rather not involve myself further in this unless directly queried. El_C 17:11, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Before being unblocked, shouldn't an editor's unblock request comply with WP:GAB? Most of Tatzref's unblock request continues the battleground behavior by blaming the editor who was outed, claiming it wasn't outing, saying the policy isn't clear, etc. Levivich 19:04, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
    • "blaming the editor who was outed". No editor Tazref mentions was outed. Tatzref mentions Icewhiz, who was blocked for off wiki harassment. Not sure which part of his request is 'blaming him'? And what battleground mentality? It's pretty clear that Tazref apologized and promises not to act in such a way again. That's battleground mentality for you? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:19, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Few things to note:
  1. Tatzref was warned against making such comments at least twice before,[3][4] but didn't seem to mind.[5][6]
  2. He has repeatedly cast aspersions on his fellow editors, even when those were clearly false (see here for three such occasions). He had repeatedly claimed, without proof, that some editors are being paid for their work.
  3. He has repeatedly invoked antisemitic sources, such as Marek Jan Chodakiewicz,[7] "Mark Paul"[8] and Gilad Atzmon[9] (his first and last edits, respectively). In one case, in order to circumvent a ban on a source, he copied the source's references and tried to retrace its work.[10] He has repeatedly distorted sources, in one case
Tatzref is not WP:here to build an encyclopedia. Don't let him back in. François Robere (talk) 01:20, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
It is worth noting that you, in tandem with the now-indef banned Icewhiz, had criticized Tatzref time and again, including presenting extensive "evidence" about his purported bad edits and attitude, and workshop related proposals, during Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland. ArbCom chose to disregard all of your claims and made no finding concerning Tatzref, choosing instead to topic ban Icewhiz. One could assume that if Tatzref was indeed here not to build an encyclopedia, ArbCom would at the very least issue a remedy concerning him. Of particular relevance in said ArbCom, in addition to findings related to bad faith and battleground mentality, is the BLP violation one, where ArbCom noted that is inadvisable, to say the least, to make "negative claims or speculations about living scholars". Such as accusing them of antisemitism (see diffs linked in the finding). I'd suggest you take heed of what ArbCom wrote, assume good faith about others, and stop making inappropriate claims about BLPs. Tazref is here to build an encyclopedia just as you are. That his POV may differ is irrelevant. People who disagree with you are to be reasoned with, not banned. Wikipedia thrives on the multitude of voices, not on creating walled gardens by banning everyone who may have a different view. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:42, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  1. Actually it's at least four editors who have independently raised issues regarding Tatzref's editing (see here and here as well).
  2. You already made the point on ArbCom, and I already replied: ArbCom ignored all evidence that wasn't directly about the parties - multiple editors', yourself included. They haven't rejected any particular claim about Tatzref or anyone else. You participated in the discussion on Jimbo's TP where their considerations were explained.[11]
  3. I assume you refer to Chodakiewicz, as "Mark Paul" is a pseudonym and Atzmon isn't a scholar. Jan T. Gross said that that Ch. is antisemitic, Piotr Wróbel said he "doesn't like the Jews", Joanna Michlic suggested he's prejudicial towards Jews and minorities, Laurence Weinbaum implied that he comes close to justifying anti-Jewish violence, and Andrzej Żbikowski wrote that he does indeed justify, and that he "lacks empathy" towards Jewish victims.
  4. And then there's Ewa Kurek, and the dozens of references to the Polish-Canadian Congress Toronto Branch's website - a non-RS that's unfortunately headed by a man who thinks Jews are trying to take over Poland economically.[12] I think that's enough. François Robere (talk) 13:27, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Ignored means pretty much not found worth of acting. ArbCom was within its rights to add more parties or issue findings about anyone they felt like it. They chose to issue none regarding him, you or me. Do you suggest that they didn't read the other evidence or felt lazy? I'd rather think that ArbCom is at least somewhat competent and that they they considered it and felt it is not sufficient to warrant any action. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:48, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
When it came down to it, removing those two from the area, along with iBanning from each other seemed to be sufficient on an individual basis. The area already had access to DS and with the additional sourcing requirement, I believe the area could move forward. (WTT, 2019-10-04) In other words, they viewed it as an efficiency measure. François Robere (talk) 12:05, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The block was good (I agree that we should err on the side of caution for anything related to outing), but I'd be inclined to conditionally unblock if the user accepts a ban from discussing Icewhiz and the Haaretz article going forward, and provides an assurance to refrain from personal commentary in general. This would seem to satisfy the issues raised by the block. This is a block for a specific offense (and a debatable one at that), and I don't think it's legitimate to retroactively revise it as a NOTHERE block. @François Robere: If you want to topic or site ban the user for general misconduct, I would say compose a sanction proposal. Do it here or at AN, with a separate heading, and I will hold off moving forward with the unblock. ~Swarm~ {sting} 19:39, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I'll have no objections to unblocking if he's limited from editing Poland- and Judaism-related articles. This would probably be the end result anyway, as there are now sourcing restrictions in place.[13] What would you like to see? François Robere (talk) 12:01, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Tatzref started as a SPA for a fringe author "Mark Paul" (pseudonym); did not answer my questions about whether there’s a COI for Canadian Polish Congress (KPK Toronto) where Mark Paul is published exclusively [14]; and then progressed to claiming that the Jews in the first two years of WWII—in 1939 to 1941 while under Soviet occupation—were "de facto" Nazi collaborators (!) [15] bottom of diff. They now wonder out loud, in the unblock request, if there’s a likely “Jewish POV network” on Wikipedia [16].
The areas in question are under discretionary sanctions (Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe & Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland), so any admin can impose a topic ban. Tatzref is aware of DS as they participated in the Antisemitism in Poland case this past summer. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:42, 12 November 2019 (UTC)


Lazy-restless caught my attention after he had made this comment, and his history on Wikipedia shows that he has been trying to push a WP:FRINGE theory, which claims that Muhammad is a messiah of Hinduism. So far it is clear that Lazy-restless has no idea what is WP:RS, WP:SPS, WP:FRINGE and WP:BATTLE.

Until now, Lazy-restless has created:-

After the issue was raised on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion#Muhammad and the Hindu scriptures, he was quick to start canvassing other users,[53] and displayed further WP:IDHT. Bharatiya29 18:17, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

I just looked a bit more through their editing history. That, and their latest edits/comments suggest someone clueless about the Vedas, when Bhagavat Purana was written, etc. That is not the problem here though, as we don't expect editors to be experts in the subject or field they are contributing. The problem is the repeated disregard for our content guidelines, repeated use of questionable and fringe sources in topic areas that are sensitive/controversial/provocative. Possibly a WP:NOTHERE who should move their attention to subjects/topics other than Indian religions, broadly construed. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:07, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban[edit]

  • Another problem with this user's edits seems to be quotation farming.[54] I support a topic ban from religion since the problem is wider than just Hindu-Muslim relations subject. Aman Kumar Goel(Talk) 18:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
    • That is problematic. I favor a warning, rather than a topic ban as an incremental step to let them learn / reform. @Lazy-restless: Why this recent massive WP:QUOTEFARM-ing of primary sources here, without a cite to any WP:RS? Would you be willing to self-revert please, and instead focus on summarizing scholarly sources such as this. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:31, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Now I also support indefinite topic ban from sexuality, not just religion per comments below. Aman Kumar Goel(Talk) 15:10, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Topic ban from religion and from sexuality indefinitely,[updated] or even block. I've dealt with this user before and they are a pusher of fringe viewpoints. For example, here, after misinterpreting a scientific study, he said All your edit attempts based on sexuality and orientation seems pseudointellectual to me. and pointed to some preacher's blog as justification. In this talk page discussion he wants to use centuries old Christian sermons as sources, and he points to a YouTube video and claims the articles, either theoritical or informative, about homosexuality in English wikipedia tend to be too much influenced by homosexuality-friendly western notion's point of view.
  • The AfDs and other evidence above show he has been doing this for years. The first AfD is from 2014. (He used to be "Sharif uddin".) He's also made a bunch of edits to LGBT in Islam which I never had time to look over. It's clear that he does push fringe theories, and that this is an ongoing pattern of behavior which he is not stopping despite what others say. He's already had the chance to reform and has not. In my experience such users often succeed in placing their poorly sourced POV content in a few places where it remains for years, because those places weren't scrutinized, so we need to prevent any further damage from him continuing to do so. -Crossroads- (talk) 17:38, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
    • I've updated my proposed topic ban to include sexuality and to be indefinite based on the evidence below and on thinking it over. Since this has been ongoing for so long, and they have over and over again, many times, been admonished by others and yet not changed their overall behavior, I see no benefit from this being temporary. It just means he can then resume the behavior with the possibility no one will notice and more damage can be done, and that someone must put forth effort to notice and to bring him back here. -Crossroads- (talk) 17:08, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Topic ban from sexuality and from religion. Lazy-restless is one of our more problematic editors, on both religious and sexual topics. He, for example, will add a bunch of text that shouldn't be added, disregard WP:due, repeatedly commit copyright violations, engage in WP:Synthesis, misrepresent sources, and edit war. His talk page extensively documents these and other problems, as seen here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. These examples span years. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban from all religion and sexuality subjects per above. Bharatiya29 16:06, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support a time-limited topic ban per Flyer22 Reborn, say 1 to 3 months (I have struck out my earlier "favor warning" preference, in light of the evidence presented and their continued more-of-the-same editing without responding to my question above); if they repeat after the sanctioned period, recommend indef. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:20, 13 November 2019 (UTC)


Prior initial thread[edit]

At some point soon we need administration to step up and get a handle on your colleagues.Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Transport.--Moxy 🍁 07:19, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

  • Despite all of the one-sided personal attacks, WP:HOUNDING, badgering and bad faith that has been occurring against me in the discussion, I have remained calm and civil throughout. There's not much I can do about what another user chooses to type. Not sure why the above is phrased in plural form using the word "colleagues", as I have not engaged in any personal attacks, hounding, badgering or name-calling whatsoever that require "getting a handle on". Hopefully the user who has solely been engaging in these activities against me will calm down. North America1000 07:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Is it okay for someone to call someone else a liar and an idiot? That seems like a PA to me. (talk) 10:48, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

It is a PA and definitely not ok @anon. Someone needs to muzzle BHG since she's clearly not going to abide by WP:NPA. AryaTargaryen (talk) 10:54, 10 November 2019 (UTC)AryaTargaryen

Muzzle is not the right word. But I agree, something should be done. The question is will anyone have the gumption to do it. (talk) 11:01, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

It will end when both admins are topic banned from portals. This is absurd. Mr Ernie (talk) 11:05, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

The problem there is that User:Northamerica1000 is engaged in a sustained exercise of gaming the system, which includes:
  • systematic and repeated misrepresentation of other editors
  • repeatedly citing as guidance a page which they themselves asked not be a guideline
  • using sneaky and stealthy editing techniques to hide severe POV-pushing
  • refusing offers to collaborate on RFCs to resolve susbstantive issues
  • repeatedly posting demonstrable falsehoods across multiple discussions (the most of extreme of which led me finally decided to call a spade a spade, and explicitly call them "either a liar or an idiot")
That MFD is yet another venue for a sustained baiting exercise by NA1K, who has deployed similar techniques many times before. The pattern is that NA1K engages in a sustained pattern of verbosely posting faleshoods, deceptions and failures of reasoning; and then howls "personal attack! hounding!" when called out on their lies and idiocy.
I stand by my description of NA1K as either a liar or an idiot, or both.
I have never before seen on Wikipedia any admin attempt to game system as brazenly as NA1K has here:
  1. call for a Wikipedia guideline to be delisted, and downgraded to a failed proposal
  2. then cite that same failed proposal in defence of POV-pushing, ... and when challenged on that duplicity, dig deeper trying pompous word-play to create a synonym for "guideline": schema for advisement
This is not social media. We are here to build an encyclopedia. That is an intellectual process which requires both honesty and integrity, and the ability to engage in rational discussion. NA1K's conduct repeatedly reveals some sort of severe deficiency of that combination, and it reached its peak at the Transport MFD. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:23, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Please justify the above personal attacks of calling them an idiot and a liar. (talk) 14:52, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
As seen above we really need a stop to the harassment and attacks. Hard for the rest of us to move forward when we have an admin going out of there way to be disputive and block any conversation about the topic.--Moxy 🍁 15:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Moxy, the admin going out of there way to be disputive and block any conversation about the topic is NA1K.
NA1K has repeatedly refused my requests to collaborate on RFCs to resolve the issues. That's the only blocking of any conversation.
The disruption is NA1K's attempts to game the system, which includes: their sneaky list additions, their stealthy conversions of portals to a "black box" format, their persistent failure to consult or even notify WikiProjects, their creation of massively POV lists, ... and most brazenly, their attempt to cite as a guideline a page which they themself had demanded by de-listed as a guideline. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:21, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
The above response makes it clear to me BHG has no intention of stopping the personal attacks, so long as they believe that they are justified in their position. WaltCip (talk) 15:30, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
I am concerned Brown is not aware of what others are seeing for the past few months. There have been numerous RFC attempts to help to define portals and there content by third parties all ending because of Brown's involvement. In many cases out right attacks on the proposers based on Brown's POV of a perceived bias of the questions being discussed.--Moxy 🍁 16:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Ah, like that RFC where Moxy made a thoroughly bad faith proposal to delete all portals, knowing that such a crude binary would be rejected, all just so they could claim misrepresent it as the community deciding not to delete portals?
Of course I denounced Moxy for that attempt to game the system. It was a shabby stunt, which rightly failed. WP:RFC says that RFCs should be framed around a neutral question, preferably agreed by both sides ... and the portal crew has doe far too much of these pointy RFCs. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment: Isn't this, this, and this WP:HARASS? It seems that way and it is unbelievable that an admin can be this disrespectful of their peers. AmericanAir88(talk) 19:00, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't tolerate violations of WP:NPA, nor should anyone. BHG is harassing and personally attacking Northamerica1000, and should be given a short-term block for that. And given their behavior in this incident and others, I think a topic ban is in order. ɱ (talk) 05:16, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Request to Close[edit]

Please close this thread by consolidating it with the one below named "Portals". Robert McClenon (talk) 05:36, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

  •  Done Levivich 18:22, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Topic/interaction ban proposal[edit]

I propose the following, which in my view recognises both the scale and disruption of the problem and the sincerity of those involved:

  1. BrownHairedGirl topic banned from portals for six months for battleground behaviour and incivility.
  2. Northamerica1000 topic banned from portals for six months for battleground behaviour and gaming the system.
  3. BrownHairedGirl and Northamerica1000 interaction banned for one year.
  4. A central RfC to decide the objective criteria for closure of moribund or dormant portals and setting clear expectations for the level of activity required to keep a portal alive, allowing for removal of cruft with less drama and forestalling third-party gaming.
    1. Addendum: Also a process for gaining consensus before creating a new portal, as uncontrolled creation seems to have been a large part of the root cause.
  5. A moratorium on portal deletions pending the central RfC.

I think we've all had enough by now. For the avoidance of doubt, the topic ban would also cover the RfC. Guy (help!) 11:33, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Lemme try to get this clear, Guy. Are you proposing a topic ban on me because I have been "uncivil" to an admin who has been, as you acknowledge, gaming the system, and who has repeatedly refused my requests to collaborate on opening RFCs to resolve the issues? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:42, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
BrownHairedGirl, I am applying the standard admin technique of dragging the warring parties apart and trying to impose some order. Please don't go WP:NOTTHEM on us, that is never a good look. Guy (help!) 13:55, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
@Guy, it is never a good look to create a false equivalence between an editor who is sytematically gaming the system, and the editor who challenges the misconduct. That approach stacks the field in favour of the gamer.
Note that in this case, as in previous encounters with NA!K, I gave them ample opportunity to stop their gaming. I have also proposed RFCs to resolve the substantive issues, which NA1K has repeatedly refused. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
I don't know about false equivalence. But your behaviour has been horrible from the tiny amount I've seen when it's made it to ANI. I mean saying Northamerica1000 has "low intelligence" is just one example of how terrible your behaviour has been. Nothing that Northamerica1000 has done can justify your behaviour. Nor can anything you, or anyone else has done, justify their behaviour of course but you can't defend your terrible behaviour just by saying the other side has been worse. If you don't want people to support a topic ban of you for your terrible behaviour, don't behave so poorly. Nil Einne (talk) 15:35, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
@Nil Einne, there is a real, substantive problem here: NA1K's sustained Dunning–Kruger effect conduct. If we are actually here to build an encyclopedia, we need to find ways of dealing with that, and stopping the damage which it causes, rather than just expressing outrage at possibly excessive directness in noting it as they try to deal with the problems which it causes. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:45, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Even if your incivility towards NA1k is acceptable, which it isn't, you've been extremely uncivil to many other editors, including myself. I couldn't possibly care if people agree with you on what to do with portals. Hell, I probably agree with you on most of it. This is about your behavior, which is entirely unacceptable and demonstrates a strong lack of compliance with community civility and conduct standards, both for editors and administrators, and your failure to recognize that you are at fault worries me. This is not to say that NA1k is faultless; there are also issues with his conduct, hence why I support all proposals by JzG, but you need to recognize that incivility is not a proper response to perceived "gaming the system", especially as your immaturity and improper commentary causes constructive and good-faith editors unnecessary distress while attempting to contribute to the encyclopedia. Your constant harsh hostility towards editors who disagree with you is not a trait of someone I trust as an administrator, and as there is no community desysop procedure on this project (even if there were, there likely isn't consensus to reshelf your mop) I believe a topic ban is the next best thing. Regards, Vermont (talk) 19:13, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Any proposal that wants a moratorium on portal deletions should also be have a moratorium on portal creations. I'll look over this never-ending portal nightmare in terms of ongoing editor behaviour later Nosebagbear (talk) 12:27, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
    Nosebagbear, I think we can only ask for status quo ante but I agree we should look at the issue of whether there should be a bar to creations. Guy (help!) 13:58, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • If this proposal isn't enacted (and I'm not sure it goes far enough in terms of either number of editors or response to their behaviour, but it's a start) the whole mess needs taking to arbcom. I allowed myself to get bullied out of most portal discussions months ago and absolutely nothing about the behaviour of the usual suspects seems to have improved since. Thryduulf (talk) 13:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
    • If you want an extreme example of bad behaviour, one of the best examples was Thryduulf's sustained efforts to demand one-by-scrutiny of the 4,200 spam portals created by TTH and his acolytes. That was a blatant attempt to rig the system in favour of spam, by demanding that the commmunity put in far more time deleting the spam than TTH put into creating it. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:55, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
      BrownHairedGirl, Question What constitutes a "spam" portal exactly? Portals are meant to be navigation aids, as I understand it. Thus, even niche fiction portals have their place, regardless of them seemingly being fan cruft. Doug Mehus T·C 19:24, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
      • @Dmehus: by "spam" portal" I mean: the navbox-cloned automated portals created en masse by TTH + acolytes, which added no value over the navboxes from which they were derived.
TTH created them at sustained speeds of up to one per minute, some of them just for the heck of it, and lamented their inability to produce them faster. Most of this portalspam was deleted in April in two mass deletions of similar portals (one, and two), with overwhelming consensus of a very high turnout. The rest were deleted in a series of follow-up nominations,and the template used to ceate them was deleted at TFD Oct 25. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:34, 10 November 2019 (UTC)\
BrownHairedGirl, Ah, okay, I don't necessarily agree that navbox contents can't make a portal, but we need to evaluate it on a case-by-case basis, I think. Some obvious navboxes related to companies should be just that: template navboxes. Others, it is less clear.--Doug Mehus T·C 19:48, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
@MJL: - thank you. And you can't spell funeral without fun. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 07:51, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Support #1 let's see what the community can acomplish when we are free to have productive talks. Let's see if we can stop the loss of cotent editors for a few months see if it improves moving forward on a scope of an RFC on portals.--Moxy 🍁 15:24, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support all (including the single addendum) Maybe other editors need to be sanctioned as well, but I just had to look at this thread and the one above to be reminded that it's reasonable to sanction those 2 editors. Nil Einne (talk) 15:39, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
    After further thought I feel I should make clear I would oppose either one of 1 and 2 passing without the other. Nil Einne (talk) 13:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Reluctant support I'm not convinced this is fair (I think the problem is that there is bullying on the playground, and this proposal solves this by sending the bully and one of their victims away from the playground), but it would work for the moment, and is better than the inaction we had in the last couple of rounds of discussing these editors. I'd suggest to start the ArbCom case once the next ArbCom is up and running. —Kusma (t·c) 15:49, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support #1 - I have noticed in particular the battleground behavior by BrownHairedGirl which include edits like: [55] Moxy, as usual you are wrong on nearly every point., [56] As KK87 knows, [57] you and other portal fans have made that argument before. It is focused more on the editor implying that they should know by now that .... whatever, I am frankly shocked by the conduct. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:36, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Reluctant support of all: As Kusma says, I can't help but feel that this is better than no action, but it's not ideal, either. Let us not let the perfect be the enemy of the good: it's time to put this matter to bed, and, absent ArbCom action, let's see what the community can do. Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 17:20, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Strongest possible oppose: There are many, many, many other people involved in the "portal wars", and silencing just two prominent users? This will only further escalate the conflict. ToThAc (talk) 15:20, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
    • I have supported having an RfC, but Guy's proposal regarding the individual editors is a bit involved. I think that aspect is primed to go to WP:ARBCOM. bd2412 T 15:27, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I support this (or any) effort to lay down some specific rules governing how and when these processes should be carried out. Right now it is more or less the wild west in terms of portals, with arbitrary and ad hoc reasoning going into arguments both for and against them. I think part of the problem is that MfD is a little-attended forum relative to other XfD namespaces, so perhaps portal deletion discussions should be moved to AfD. I was involved in the creation of MfD, and it was originally intended for things in project space and user space, not for reader-facing content. All that said, there are unquestionably some very poorly conceived portals that should be deleted, but perhaps that task should be temporarily put in the hands of a different slice of the community. bd2412 T 15:26, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
@BD2412: I wouldn't be opposed to that, either. ToThAc (talk) 15:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support the idea of taking this to ARBCOM: I've been watching this unfold since around the end of August and it has devolved to a point where I'm almost certain that writing each act of incivility on the same Word document would end up with a several thousand word essay. -Yeetcetera @me bro 15:39, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support the idea of taking this to ARBCOM ...lets get other admins involved in a wider tlak. Because the integrity of admiship is being questioned at this point. --Moxy 🍁 15:52, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support taking this to arbcom. Its clear that the community has repeatedly failed to resolve this matter. I don't know whether it can wait until January (as suggested somewhere) though, I'd prefer to take it there before it degenerates further. Thryduulf (talk) 16:02, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support JzG's proposal to take this to ArbCom. Question: So, basically, can ArbCom be used to take any proposal that repeatedly fails to gain consensus? I thought they only dealt with editor discipline. I think Wikipedia needs some adult supervision, so this is encouraging. I'd even support giving bureaucrats and ArbCom Clerks expanded powers of veto to override consensus where it's clear so-called "school war" voting blocks are stymieing otherwise sound, rationale, policy- and circumstance-based arguments. Doug Mehus T·C 16:25, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • They'll only look at the user-conduct side; they have the authority to decide that one or more of the parties is acting unreasonably and have the authority to topic-ban them, but they have no authority to determine content so can't rule on whether portals are a good thing or how the creation and deletion processes should work. To act as a final binding decision-maker primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve is the official definition of their scope if you want chapter-and-verse. ‑ Iridescent 16:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Iridescent, Ah, that's too bad. I wonder if there would be community consensus for expanded powers for ArbCom—to determine consensus on its own in a very limited set of contingent circumstances? Doug Mehus T·C 17:01, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I think there would, rightly, be strong oppposition to ArbCom's remit being extended to make content decisions. (As an aside, ArbCom can't "determine consensus on its own" by definition, because a unilateral decision by ArbCom would not be consensus). Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:12, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Boing! said Zebedee, So I'm confused then, why is JzG proposing an RfC agenda to take to ArbCom to have approved? If not what he's proposing, what is he proposing? Certainly he's not proposing to take Northamerica1000 to ArbCom for sanction is he, particularly in light of the compelling diffs Northamerica1000 posted showing admin BrownHairedGirl apparently engaging in both bad faith and personal attacks against NA1K? I have to say, this ANI troubles me greatly...I always held administrators in such high regard, as all-knowing, impartial, and above-the-fray, but these events seem to demonstrate to me that they, at times, engage in the same sort of shenanigans of editors brought to ANI. Doug Mehus T·C 17:17, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • There are two separate things being proposed here, an RfC for community discussion and consensus, and a referral to ArbCom to examine the bahaviour of the combatants. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:24, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Dmehus, I'm not. People have replied in the wrong section and messed it all up... Guy (help!) 17:25, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Sub-colloquy re timeline and comments by Northamerica1000
  • Comment from Northamerica1000 (talk · contribs) – I want to be crystal clear here, so I encourage all to please consider the timeline below and check the links.
  • At the MfD discussion for the Transport portal, BrownHairedGirl (talk · contribs) has accused me of gaming the system, stating in part, "NA1K is wholly unrepentant about continuing to relay for guidance on a former guideline WP:POG which was delisted with their support; and now seeks discussions to "update" a page whose status is solely a "failed proposal". This is one of the worst case I have seen of trying to gaming the system".
  • Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but my intention in stating that discussion could occur at the POG talk page was that potential future portal criteria could be discussed there. Another option that I didn't mention would be to discuss potential portal criteria matters at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Portals.
  • In the thread above on this noticeboard titled "When will it end", Moxy posted a link to the Transport portal MfD discussion.
  • The proposal here written by JzG regarding potential sanctions against me appears to be based upon BHG's proclamation at the Transport portal MfD discussion, or at last it did before others chimed in after JzG posted it, while I was typing this out in the meantime.
  • First and foremost, at the MfD discussion, I have not engaged in any personal attacks, hounding, badgering or name-calling whatsoever. Rather, I have remained calm and civil throughout the discussion. I have also not engaged in any gaming. Meantime, on this very ANI page, BHG has continued their personal attacks against me, stating in the "When will it end" section, "I stand by my description of NA1K as either a liar or an idiot, or both." (diff). This is a reprehensible personal attack, right on this ANI page.
  • BHG has repeatedly engaged in the exact same highly similar behaviors that they so vehemently oppose at the Transport portal MfD discussion, over a significant period of time. Ironically, BHG themself has set a precedent for referral to the former Portal/Guidelines (WP:POG) page, now a failed proposal page, at various MfD discussions. I certainly have not engaged in any gaming; the user and other users have routinely refer to POG in MfD discussions, after it was downgraded from the status of being a guideline page. Very importantly, note that the commentary listed below occurred after POG was downgraded. BHG's comments denoted below all occurred in October-November 2019.
  • Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Karachi – BHG stated: "The portal was never properly built, and it has basically been abandoned since construction was halted. It has only 15 selected articles (and no separate set of biogs), which is less than even the risibly low bare minimum of 20 set by the former guideline WP:POG. All those pages were created in 2008, since when they have had only trivial technical changes, such as punctuation and disambiguation." Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
    • This is a classic deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
    I did was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline.
    NA!K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:22, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Bremen – BHG stated: "The set of only 9 articles is less than half the risibly low minimum of 20 set by the former guideline WP:POG. It includes no recognised content (i.e. FA-class or GA-class), and there is little scope for doing so because few such articles exist." Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
    • Another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
    I did was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline.
    NA!K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:24, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Paralympic Games – BHG stated: "So after 9 years, this portal has only 8 articles, which is a trivially small set, less than half of the risibly small minimum of 20 which set by the former guideline WP:POG. And all of them are abandoned. There is no sign of nay maintainer, let alone the multiple maintainers needed to avoid the "key man" risk." Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
    • Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
    I was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline.
    NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not.
    Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statements to the fact that the portal was created under former crap guideline and their own statemnets that their actions are justified by following that crap guideline ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:34, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Islamabad – BHG stated: "WP:POG was right about some things, including that portals need both multiple maintainers and supporting WikiProjects. In this case we have only one inexperienced editor interested in maintenance, and WP:WikiProject Islamabad is inactive. That's a recipe for continued failure." Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
    • Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
    I did not claim that POG is a active guideline, or that in NA1K's pompous words a schema for advisement. I offered my explicitly personal view that in this instance, it was right ... but I did not claim that it represents a current consensus.
    NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not.
    Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statement on the value of the former guideline and their own attempt to use it as a shield against their POV-pushing ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:34, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Washington (state) – BHG stated: "A mere 11 selected articles+bogs is a pathetically small set, barely half the risibly low minimum of 20 set by the former guideline WP:POG, and nowhere remotely near big enough to provide a decent sample of the topic." Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
    • Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
    I did was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline "risibly".
    NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not.
    Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statements to the fact that the portal was created under former crap guideline and their own statements that their actions are justified by following that crap guideline ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:1940s – BHG stated: "The portal was created[1] in September 2016‎ with only selected article and one biog. More were added in 2017, bring to the tally to 5 articles plus 5 biogs. That total of ten is only half the risibly low minimum of twenty set in the former guideline WP:POG. The selection is also grossly unbalanced: all 5 topics listed in Portal:1940s/Selected article are military, and 3 of the 5 are predominantly about the United States ." Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
    • Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
    I did was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline "risibly".
    NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not.
    Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statements to the fact that the portal was created under former crap guideline and their own statements that their actions are justified by following that crap guideline ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:South Carolina – BHG stated: "Two articles and two biogs is Perfectly good portal?????? Really??? Am I missing some sort of sarcasm or comedy here? Even POG set a minimum of twenty articles, which itself was risibly low." Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
    • Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
    I did was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline: "risibly".
    NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not.
    Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statements to the fact that the portal was created under former crap guideline and their own statements that their actions are justified by following that crap guideline ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:North Carolina – BHG stated: "A mere one selected article makes a Perfectly good portal?????? Really??? Am I missing some sort of sarcasm or comedy here? Even POG set a minimum of twenty articles, which itself was risibly low." Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
    • Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
    I did was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline: "risibly".
    NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not.
    Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statements to the fact that the portal was created under former crap guideline and their own statements that their actions are justified by following that crap guideline ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Statistics – BHG stated: "This total of 13 topics is little over half the risibly low bare minimum of 20 recommended by the former guideline WP:POG, which has now been downgraded to an information page." and "Since late 2006, WP:POG had warned editors "Do not expect other editors to maintain a portal you create", but that warning was not heeded here." Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
    • Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
    I was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline "risibly".
    NA1K snipped the sceond snetence from my cescription of the history of the portal. I also carefully worded that comment about "maintain a portal you create" to stress that I was referring to the guidance as it applied at that time when the portal was created. The standing guidance when the portal was created had not been followed. It did not in any claim that POG is a current guideline.
    NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as current guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which it does not.
    Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statements to the fact that the portal was created under former crap guideline and their own statements that their actions are justified by following that crap guideline ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Elbe–Weser triangle – BHG stated: "WP:POG has been downgraded to an info page, but its guidance in this respect was excellent: "the portal should be associated with a WikiProject (or have editors with sufficient interest) to help ensure a supply of new material for the portal and maintain the portal". This portal lacks both the supply and the maintainers." Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
    • Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
    I was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I did not in any way claim that it has any current force.

NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not.

  • Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statement of my view of the value of some words in the former guideline and their own statements that their actions in after its delisting creating a POV page are justified by following that crap guideline ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:55, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Furthermore, of note is that Robert McClenon (talk · contribs), who appears to be a wiki-friend of BHG's, has also engaged in the same behaviors in various MfD discussions, using a copy-paste rationale that synthesizes aspects of POG relative to WP:COMMONSENSE, after POG was downgraded from being a guideline page, which is quoted below with diffs. It is alarming and hypocritical that BHG has not criticized this user whatsoever about this, only me.
  • diff, diff, diff, diff, diff and diff – "The intended Portal Guidelines were never approved by a consensus of the Wikipedia community, and we have never had real portal guidelines. We should therefore use common sense, which is discussed in Wikipedia in the essay section Use Common Sense and in the article common sense. The portal guidelines were an effort to codify common sense about portals, and we should still use common sense. It is still a matter of common sense that portals should be about broad subject areas that will attract large numbers of viewers and will attract portal maintainers. (There never was an actual guideline referring to broad subject areas, and the abstract argument that a topic is a broad subject area is both a handwave and meaningless.) Common sense imposes at least a three-part test for portals to satisfy common sense: (1) a broad subject area, demonstrated a posteriori by a breadth of selected articles (not only by an a priori claim that a topic is broad) (the number of articles in appropriate categories is an indication of potential breadth of coverage, but actual breadth of coverage should be required); (2) a large number of viewers, preferably at least 100 a day, but any portal with fewer than 25 a day can be considered to have failed; (3) portal maintenance, (a) with at least two maintainers to provide backup, with a maintenance plan indicating how the portal will be maintained (b) the absence of any errors indicating lack of maintenance (including failure to list dates of death in biographies). Some indication of how any selected articles were selected (e.g., Featured Article or Good Article status, selection by categories, etc.) is also desirable. Any portal that does not pass these common-sense tests is not useful as a navigation tool, for showcasing, or otherwise" Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
    • Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. @Robert McClenon explicitly stated his personal view that some parts of POG reflect commonsense. Robert is entitled to state his own view, and he clearly takes responsibility for that view. He has not attempted to claim that POG has current force as a schema for advisement, and he has not in way emulated NA1K's disgraceful attempt to claim currency for POG as a device to justify creation of a POV portal. This is an attempt by NA1K to smear me and Robert McClenon by misrepresentation. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:55, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • As I have stated above, BHG and others have engaged in the exact same highly similar behaviors that BHG has so vehemently opposed at the Transport portal discussion. The user is not holding themself to the same standards that they impose on others; rather, they are applying double standards based upon their own selective and subjective criteria. North America1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Section break for sub-colloquy
  • Comment – I dislike how BHG has interjected their commentary within the comment I posted above, and ask that they or someone else please move their commentary into its own separate post. The interjection of commentary within my comment has served to dilute my message, turning it into a long wall of text that is less likely to be read and considered as fully by others compared to the original state it was in when I posted it. I prefer my posts to remain as I posted them, rather than being modified in this manner. North America1000 02:05, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • NA1K, you posted as wall of text a series of deceitful misrepresentations of me, which you clearly intended to create through sheer volume of misrepresentation a mountain of "evidence" in support of your false claim that I had acted like you. I have posted in each case an individual response, and taken care to retain attribution.
If your message of deceit has been diluted, that is solely a consequence of your choice to deceive. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:13, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • You should not have interleaved your comments within NA1K's comment in the first place, per WP:TPO (this is explicitly mentioned in the documentation of {{Interrupted}}, the template you used to mark your insertions). To then thumb your nose in response to a polite request from NA1K not to do this is so brazenly disrespectful it boggles the mind to see it coming from an administrator. Colin M (talk) 03:02, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Colin M – The inappropriate interspersal of commentary within my comment equates to an entitled rationale of, "I don't like your comment, so I am therefore allowed to modify it any way I'd like, because I say so". This is certainly against the advisement of WP:TPO. I don't like this at all; it's obviously totally off base and highly inappropriate. It turned my comment into a long wall of text that is now disjointed, interspersed with loaded adjectives such as "deceitful" and "manipulative", inappropriately changing its meaning. It is also very concerning that the user has ultimately posted comments below their very own verbatim comments in this strange manner, which bizarrely reads almost as though if they are referring to their own comments denoted in the list as deceitful and manipulative. My premise to the discussions list exists above them, not within the list. My text in the discussions list consists solely of a link to a discussion and " – BHG stated:". That's all. This is not deceitful or manipulative whatsoever. It seems that the user is intentionally working to disruptively dilute and obscure my post by bludgeoning it in this manner, intentionally and disrespectfully tampering with it to make it more ambiguous for other users to read, while interspersing negativity within it, changing its meaning. This is a disrespect to me as well as to the readers of this page. The fact that the user has chosen to reject a perfectly reasonable request to format their commentary properly and in accordance with WP:TPO, and the reasons they have provided for not doing so, only further supports the notion that this disruption as I have described is intentional, for the reasons described herein. Furthermore, since this ANI discussion involves the user and myself and elements of them interfering with my edits and actions in a battleground manner, they should especially not be posting within my commentary in this manner at the very ANI discussion about these matters. It seems that the user just cannot resist interfering with my activity on English Wikipedia. Per all of this, it is my request that someone please WP:REFACTOR the user's posts into one post, as per the directives at WP:TPO. North America1000 20:23, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Reply That long charge-sheet against me by NA1K is simply more evidence that NA1K is either incompetent or mendacious, or both:
In each of the instances which NA1K sets out, I noted that POG is a former guideline. I did not seek to uphold it as guide to ongoing conduct; on the contrary, I repeatedly and explicitly described it as risible.
By contrast, what NA1K did was to repeatedly justify their actions as being in accordance with POG, ... and did so to justify their creation of a massively POV list. In other words, NA1K used a non-guideline as their shield again breaching a core policy.
Why sort of person tries to claim that these are the same thing? Is NA1K too incompetent to distinguish between those two uses? Or are they consciously lying?
Whatever reasons applies, NA1K's statement that BHG engaged in the exact same behaviors is completely false. How on earth can we build an enclyopedia when discussions are repeatedly polluted with such counter-factual nonsense? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:07, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Northamerica1000, My proposal was based on the current dispute, not any one person's version of it. The fact that both of you think I am siding with the other is pretty clear evidence of this. I'm siding with neither, I am just sick of the drama and looking for a way to advance it that doesn't end up in desysopping and bans for people whose work I admire in every other area. Guy (help!) 17:27, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
JzG, I support Guy's comment above. Both are otherwise great admins. It seems the crux of the matter is one's view of Portals and the other's, which views them less favourably. I personally think Portals are a great idea, but am confident they're under-utilized because they're so hard to find. We just deleted a Star Trek portal for Pete's sake—despite there being a lot of Star Trek articles.Doug Mehus T·C 17:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Some questions for JzG – Since you have devised your proposal based upon the MfD discussion for Portal:Transport, relative to the information I posted in my comment above, do you still feel that I have somehow gamed the system, or is your proposal simply based upon BHG having proclaimed it as their opinion at the discussion? I have not engaged in any gaming whatsoever, and as I have stated, others, including BHG themself, have engaged in the exact same highly similar behaviors of referring to POG in MfD discussion in various manners after it was demoted from being a guideline page. Nobody else at the discussion has agreed with BHG's viewpoint of gaming, and most are in agreement with my contention that the portal should be retained and improved.
Also, I have not engaged in any battleground behavior there whatsoever. After being continuously personally attacked there, I never responded in kind. I have posted no personal attacks and have harassed nobody there. Rather, I have calmly and civilly presented my point of views in a functional, collegial manner. Also, notice how I posted my comments in a manner to separate myself from BHG, because it is clear that they were angry, and it is not my intention to provoke them. Could you please cite any specific commentary there that I have posted that you perceive as battleground behavior, since you are basing your proposal upon the discussion? When a user is constantly personally attacked in a discussion, should they just not respond, or should they defend their honor and reputation, and try to better explain their position using civil, calm commentary as I have done? In my view, people have a right to stand up for themselves in a civil manner. I worry that any sort of response to BHG's anger, regardless of how civil and well-intended, could be misinterpreted as battleground behavior when it is not, particularly when users may skim the discussion, rather than reading it in-depth. Conversely to the barrage of attacks that have been posted against me at the discussion, I have remained on-topic about the portal and its content there, and have not personalized the discussion in a negative manner whatsoever.
Please don't take this the wrong way, and I am aware that you are not siding with anybody, but some specific examples from the MfD discussion would be helpful in terms of qualifying your proposed sanctions against me, since it is what the proposal is based upon. North America1000 19:12, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • More lies from NA1K. No, I did not engage in the exact same behaviors. Please do try to stop repeated your habitual lying. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:40, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Addendum: I have struck part of my commentary above, replacing with "highly similar". North America1000 20:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC))
  • More reality inversion from NA1K. Mo, it was not highly similar. It was the complete opposite.
  1. I repeatedly referred to a former guideline as risible.
  2. NA1K cited a failed proposal as a schema for advisement which justified their breach of the core policy of NPOV.
I repeat my earlier observation that only an idiot or a liar would try to equate those opposite actions. This little exchange is an excellent example of why NA1K's conduct is so toxic. NA1K repeats and repeats a patently false assertion which smears another editor and then whines at huge length that they are being bullied and badgered by requests that they desist from the absurd smears and reconnect to reality.
NA1K continues to turn themselves into poster-child for the Dunning–Kruger effect. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:05, 10 November 2019 (UTC)


  • More personal attacks above from BHG, qualified by gross semantic nitpicking of phrases and words that are naturally open to various interpretations. I even struck part of my commentary in hopes to appease the user, so they would hopeully calm down, but to no avail. The user disagrees per their own interpretation, so they then engage in more name calling, proclaiming and labeling another user as a "liar" on a public noticeboard, in bold, of course, to make it stand out more. More of the same unfortunate smear campaign behavior that the user appears unable to resist from performing. The user feels that it is okay to quickly and eagerly engage in ad hominem behavior, rather than responding functionally, such as saying something such as, "I feel that this is inaccurate". All the while, the user does not address the overall gist of the original comment that was posted.
I mentioned WP:POG at the Transport portal MfD discussion in the context of article additions that were performed to the portal. I did not refer to it as a guideline page there, I referred to it in terms of the recommendations that exist there (e.g. where I stated in the discussion, "I simply updated the page in accordance with POG's recommendations.") (bold emphasis mine). I urge readers to read my entire post there, so matters are kept in context. Also, the Wikipedia talk:Portal/Guidelines page is still active, with an active RfC occurring there as I post this.
As I stated in my post above, other users have continued to utilize the sentiments of POG in MfD discussions, after it was demoted as a guideline page, such as continuing to qualify deletion as per the points in the lead of POG, stating that portals should be about broad topical areas, should attract large numbers of interested readers, and portal maintainers.
For example, at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:1940s, which occurred after POG was demoted, BHG based part of their nomination for deletion by stating, "That total of ten is only half the risibly low minimum of twenty set in the former guideline WP:POG", referring to a deficient number of articles. The user was directly referring to the recommendations of POG in an MfD discussion as a means to assess the portal, utilizing those recommendations to qualify deletion. I utilized the recommendations of POG at the Transport portal MfD discussion in regards to additions that were performed to it, referring to an increased number of articles, also as a means to assess the portal. Both actions involved the utilization of POG's minimum article count recommendation, just for different purposes.
These are not opposite actions, they are similar actions that both involve sentiments of POG's minimum article count recommendation. That the user used the word "risibly" in their nomination in reference to POG's article count minimum is of no consequence; the user utilized sentiments of POG's article count as a qualifier for deletion after POG was demoted. While deletion and retention are opposite in nature, utilizing POG's article count recommendation in various manners is not. The article count recommendation has been utilized in both ways, for deletion or retention, but both uses involves the same action, the utilization of the same general concept, just in different contexts. It's like purchasing cooking oil, which can be used for cooking or to fuel some types of motor vehicles. The action of obtaining the cooking oil is the same, but it is used for different purposes.
Since BHG and other users are opining for deletion based in part upon the recommendations of POG after its demotion, it is only fair for users to have an option to opine for portal retention based upon said recommendations as well. It's a two-way street, not a one-way street where its recommendations can only be utilized in the context of deletion. While POG is not a guideline page anymore, in my opinion, people will still rely upon it for advisement. Despite its demotion, it's one of the only pages that provides any sort of direct portal criteria for people to consider. What else should be used in place of it? North America1000 00:28, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • NA1K's response continues to actively try to distort my words.
There is world of a difference difference between:
  • My observations that a portal did not meet even the risbly low criteria of the guideline which applied when it was last developed
  • NA1K's description of the guideline as still a guideline (by using pompous words which amount to a synonym for guideline), and relying on that former guidance after its demotion which they had requested, in order to crate a massively POV portal.
This is all a smokescreen by NA1K to distract from the fact that NA1K:
  1. sneakily created a massively POV list.
  2. cited in justification a former guideline which did not require the actions they took (POG desribed a technique for making a list. It did not advise editors to suspend judgement about core policies such as NPOV, and it did not require or advise NA1K to use only one of the >20 transport-related projects)
  3. failed to notify any interested parties of their actions
NA1K writes it's one of the only pages that provides any sort of direct portal criteria for people to consider. What else should be used in place of it?.
This is absurd, and massively hypocritcal. NA1K specifically advocated delisting the guideline. They could have requested amendmnents to it, but instaed they supported delisting.
The resulting state of having no guideline is therefore exactly what NA1K wanted ... so why on earth is NA1K now complaining that there is no guideline? You got what you asked for, NA1K.
Also, as NA1K well knows, I have been asking for weeks (since the ANI thread on my reversions) for collaboration to develop RFCs for guidance on these various issues. I have posted that request at least a dozen times, several of which have pinged NA1K (e.g. [58]), and I have several times set out some of the issues which I woyukd I like to reslved by RFC, e.g. [59]
NA1K has not supported any of those repeated requests for RFC ... but is instead insisting that they are right to rely on the guideline which they themself got delisted.
This is classic gaming the system. If NA1K wants guidelines, then they can propose that POG be reinstated ... or, as I would prefer, they work collaboratively to develop new guidance, initially in the 3 major issues in dispute.
Instead, NA1K is tryig to take advantage of the vacuum which they created, by misrepresenting the former guidance as still having currency.
A good faith editor would now agree that there are substantive issues which need resolution at RFC. Will you do that, NA1K? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:55, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment – Above, BHG stated: This is absurd, and massively hypocritcal and so why on earth is NA1K now complaining that there is no guideline?.
My post above consists of observations, not complaints. It is unclear why you are asking yet again about why I was for WP:POG being delisted. I have already addressed this matter at Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Schleswig-Holstein (2nd nomination) earlier, which you then responded to in a later comment that finished with an intro stating the phrase "Na1k=Liar." (diff1, diff2), so you are obviously already aware of the response I provided. It is you who is being dishonest, because you act as though if you are entirely unaware of matters that I have already stated my opinion upon, and to which you have already responded. Did you not remember when you added my user name and the word "liar" in bold? Your personal attack there should be redacted, and you should learn to at least try to be more respectful of others. Your consistent battleground mentality and behavior is incongruent with building an encyclopedia. Other editors would have already been blocked for such long-term, ongoing harassment.
I encourage all readers to please read my post on 10 November 2019 (UTC) at the Portal:Schleswig-Holstein MfD discussion page (diff), where I stated (in part):
I have not cited the WP:POG page as a guideline. I opposed it being utilized as a formal guideline page per principle, because its lead was decided upon by one user in a unilateral manner and a WP:CONSENSUS never existed for it to be an official guideline page. Your theories about why I opposed it as a guideline page has nothing to do with this MfD discussion, and is also incorrect.
For more information, please see this VP discussion which was closed on 26 September 2019 (UTC) and includes the detailed rationale I provided regarding POG relative to its demotion.
So what are the real reasons for why you are acting like you're unaware of my opinion about POG and its demotion? Is it so you can repeat your interrogation here in attempts to further smear my reputation? It certainly appears to be that way. Please cease from asking the same questions over and over again on multiple pages when I have already answered them. If you are unable to remember things I have previously stated, you could consider denoting them in some manner. It is wasting my time, time I'd rather spend performing functional activities, rather than responding continuously to your identical interrogations on multiple pages, whereby if I don't respond, you then imply that I haven't addressed the matter, when the response has already been provided elsewhere. Please stop your constant repetitious badgering and WP:HOUNDING, because it is disturbing my enjoyment of Wikipedia, and likely that of others as well. North America1000 17:51, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment – Above, BHG stated, A good faith editor would now agree that there are substantive issues which need resolution at RFC. Will you do that, NA1K?.
As worded, the statement implies that I would exist as a "bad faith" editor if I decline to draft an RfC or collaborate with the user in doing so. Of course, this is a poor preface to begin with when suggesting activities for other users to work on, and equates to complying with a request to perform specific work or otherwise face a potential of being declared as a "bad faith" user. Furthermore, the user's ongoing name calling against me and smearing of my name across various Wikipedia pages inhibits me from wanting to work with them. It is patronizing for the user to request that I perform work on an RfC after the behavior they have exhibited against me.
It is unrealistic and illogical for the user to expect a user who has repeatedly been called a "liar" by them, in bold, across various discussions, including in this ANI discussion, to then have an interest in working with them. The user has not been behaving in a collegial manner, and then requests collaboration for an RfC, which requires collegial behavior. The user's past behavior creates doubt regarding the feasibility of working with them, as well as in their intentions in requesting collaboration. If BHG were to perform the good-faith act of redacting each and every instance across Wikipedia, including in this ANI discussion, where they have engaged in such name calling with the words "liar", lies", "lying", etc., only then would I begin to consider working with them on an RfC. Even if this were to occur, I naturally reserve the right to choose for myself what I spend my time working on. North America1000 22:12, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose per Northamerica1000 above. I've never found NA1K to be anything but impartial and objective. I don't know the whole story, but this seems like too soon. Doug Mehus T·C 17:05, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
    Dmehus, do you not watch this page? It's been going on for at least six months. Guy (help!) 17:28, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
    JzG, No, sorry, I've only recently started following WP:ANI and, to be honest, I don't like that I see here, by admins and editors alike. I think I should unfollow this page. It's almost as bad as the RfA/RfB "ritual hazings" to which S Marshall so aptly and concisely put it.--Doug Mehus T·C 17:35, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
    Procedural Note: There's too many edit conflicts...but can someone move this my struck vote above and the next three support votes at the same hierarchical level above NA1K's comment, so his comment is back together again? Doug Mehus T·C 18:01, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support #1 – This has been a one-sided matter, in which BHG has engaged in an ongoing smear campaign against me and other users over months of time, intentionally working to malign my character and reputation and that of others on English Wikipedia.
  • BHG has also attacked me again very recently, both directly here on this ANI page on 10 November 2019 (UTC) (diff – "I stand by my description of NA1K as either a liar or an idiot, or both.") and on 10 November 2019 (UTC) (diff – "'NA1K=Liar".)
  • I urge others to please refer to and read pages from the extensive list of links provided at Administrators' noticeboard/Archive311 § Civility issues with User:BrownHairedGirl (from August 2019), where Vermont took the time to provide many diffs that demonstrate BHG's ongoing pattern of the performance of hounding, bullying, personal attacks, name calling and harassment. This serves to provide additional context demonstrating that BHG's poor conduct has been an ongoing matter. In addition to Vermont's links posted at that discussion, below are more links from that discussion that I posted there, to serve as an addendum, further establishing the pattern that BHG has been exhibiting:
– I have attempted at times to discuss matters with BHG in a functional manner in various discussions, but the user has continued to attack for months, often responding with great walls of badgering, hurtful and angry text, against myself and many other users. Despite all of this, I have remained calm, civil and objective, and have never posted personal attacks. I have also performed absolutely no gaming of the system anywhere. I have done no wrong. North America1000 17:47, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Reply. There isn't a venue where all those discussions can be examined properly, but I stand what I wrote in those discussions. They all show variants on the same pattern of NA1K engaging in mendacious and/or incompetent conduct, and then whining about being called out on it.
The problem is that NA1K is fundamentally well-intentioned, but is either incapable of conducting rational discussions, or unwilling to do so. They repeatedly post the same falsehoods, and are impervious to reason. That is why I assert that they are either a liar or incompetent, or both.
Two examples (I don't have time for diff-farming now):
  • Across multiple discussions, NA1K repeatedly, cited an incomplete sentence from POG, snipping off the part of the sentence which contradicted their case. The full sentence, with a strikeout through the art which NA!K systematically omitted is "Please bear in mind that portals should be about broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers".
    NA1K persisted in doing so even when they were pointed to the full sentence. That is deceptive and dishonest behaviour, which NA1K repeated across multiple discussions. It is one of the reasons why I call NA1K mendacious, but I also accept the possibility of an alternative explanation: that NA1K is too stupid to recognise the dishonesty involved.
  • In discussions about pageviews of portals, every other editor posted daily averages. NA1K repeatedly replied with a higher number, which was the total pageviews for a different timefame, creating an apples-and-oranges comparison. This was mendacious use of statistics.
    Subsequent discussion revealed that NA!K was actually substantively incompetent, and made absurd claims such as that an average is a statistic whereas the addition of data across a timeframe is not a statistic. After much discussion, NA1K did eventually agree to stop using simple statistics in this misleading way, but a huge amount of drama was created through their stupidity.
NA!K's contributions to portal debates have been full of this sort of mix of stupidity and mendacity. That is a large part of why portals debates have become so antagonistic, because challenging the stupidity and mendacity inevitably involves personal criticism of NA1K.
These problems with NA1K are longstanding, and were noted at NA1K's two RFAs, e.g.
  • Candidates need to demonstrate that they have that particular brand of clue that is required of administrators
  • in my experience this user doesn't deal well with disagreements. He just talks over the top of people and doesn't listen to them. -- which is exactly what NA1K has done at multiple portal MFDs
  • When we tried to explain notability guidelines, deletion policy, and WP:NOT then he changed his focus to telling others why we were wrong instead of addressing us and discussing it. He doesn't listen. Then when we had the discussion about canvassing at ARS, he was doing the same thing. He didn't want to understand canvassing policy, he wanted to exonerate ARS. This "I want to win" behavior is dangerous to Wikipedia and certainly not helpful in an admin
  • I do not believe that NA is a proper reader of consensus. Tparis points out lawyering, canvassing, and not listening, and that is my experience also
  • ... suggests that you aren't so much interested in administering Wikipedia's policies and guidelines as you are in saving articles -- exatly the smare issue as at poratl MFDs
  • Tactics as a member of ARS were highly questionable, inluding canvassing and dumping long lists of useless sources which he clearly did not take the time to read or evaluate -- again, similar to NA1K's conduct with portals, where they have made long indiscriminate lists. See e.g. my analysis at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Transport and Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Ghana.
  • What I've seen from them in article space is impressive in terms of zeal and sheer number of edits, but I am less than impressed with their judgment in the matter of evaluating sources--for instance -- the same lack of judgement has been displayed ven in the simper task of their creation of article lists for portals
  • Issue with judgement are clear here
  • Judgement is clearly an issue, reflected in the huge number of edits as well as elsewhere, as is the possibility of hat collecting
  • Like other opposes, I am concerned with Northamerica1000's judgment.
  • the concerns about judgment ring true to me
  • past behavior has led me to have serious concerns about NA1k's judgment, especially w/r/t deletion related issues
The core problem here is that in the case of NA1K, the community has failed to act on long-standing concerns about their lack of competence. This has led NA1K to repeatedly extend themselves well beyond their very limited competence, which has exacerbated the Dunning–Kruger effect demonstrated by NA1K's repeated inability or unwillingness to abandon even simple falsehoods and follies.
This has created the cycle seen at numerous MFDs, where NA1K repeated posts half-truths or outright falsehoods, is incapable of engaging rationally with the replies, and then plays the victim card by crying "badgering!" "hounding!" etc. This is all inevitable, as described by Ehrliger et al in 2008: poor performers grossly overestimate their performances because their incompetence deprives them of the skills needed to recognize their deficits. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The use of a comma in Please bear in mind that portals should be about broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers. makes the portion that follows it non-restrictive. Which is to say, it can be omitted without changing the truth-conditional meaning of the sentence. i.e. The sentence could be rewritten as "Please bear in mind that portals should be about broad subject areas (broad subject areas are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers)." Omitting this non-essential clause requires neither malicious intent nor incompotence.
I think you may have acquired a distorted view of what are just ordinary disagreements between rational editors. When you reframe these as "correct editor vs. obviously stupid/evil editor", it makes any kind of movement toward consensus impossible. This is why WP:AGF is so important. Colin M (talk) 01:29, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • @Colin M, I disagree with your assessment of that as non-restrictive. Wikipedia guidance pages are not written with such legalistic precision, and the clear intent of the sentence as a whole is that the goal is to create portals with "large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers". AFAICs, the the essential meaning of the thought is disturbed by the clarification of the goal, so in my view the relative clause is restrictive.
It also seems to me to be a breach of commonsense to suggest that a portal is viable if it is unread and has rotted because it has no maintainers.
I can respect your different interpretation, while disagreeing with it. That is usually the sort of point on which there is reasoned disagreement, and possibly an RFC to establish consensus for a clarification ... but my complaint about NA1K's omission is that in discussion where those very problems of readership and maintenance were being discussed, they repeatedly acted as if those other words simply did not exist. That is the deceit, and it is the systematic omission which impeded consensus. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:13, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Section break[edit]

  • Support for Guy's #3-5 of amended, clarified proposal; call it reluctant support for #1-2. Doug Mehus T·C 17:52, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Strong Support for #1 BHG is violating WP:HARASS through examples like: this, this, and this. What is even more concerning is that BHG is an admin, a privilege that is meant to be a role model for examplar Wikipedia behavior. NA1K is a victim of harassment from someone who does not learn from their previous mistakes. It is unbelievable that an admin can be this disrespectful of their peers. AmericanAir88(talk) 19:06, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • If the harassment escalates further, it may become a case I suggest where BHG receives a review for the possible removal of adminship through the proper process. (WP:DESYS). AmericanAir88(talk) 19:16, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • This from an editor with "Northamerica1000 is such a fantastic editor and my Wiki-Idol." on their userpage. Well, thanks for your input. Black Kite (talk) 19:20, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I put that on my userpage back when NorthA was considering retirement. I wanted to remind the public of the good and benefit they are to encyclopedia. It is not bias, it is the truth. Also why did you leave out "Please do not retire, we as a community support you"? Are you trying to shorten it to make me look worse? I am clearly stating my opinion based on the evidence and sides given. I am not a yes-man to NA1K, I am an individual human who wants to improve the encyclopedia and stand for what is right. AmericanAir88(talk) 19:23, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • While this can be seen as a potential WP:COI or w/e the reasoning, the provided diffs with things such as NA1K is either an idiot or a liar or both is concerning. This is focusing on the editor rather than the debate. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:25, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • AmericanAir88, Agree completely. That's what troubles me the most is the harassment and incivility of another administrator. I thought admins were supposed to be above this sort of thing. That does not mean they are not infallible, but BHG's apparent reluctance to see where she erred is what troubles me most. Someone said above there is no consensus as to desysoping procedures, which is also problematic if ArbCom is the only solution. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the Bureaucrats have discretionary authority to desysop an admin under limited circumstances. Doug Mehus T·C 19:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
    AmericanAir88 writes NA1K is a victim of harassment from someone who does not learn from their previous mistakes, and provides three diffs: this, this, and this..
Those three diffs are of edits where I provide evidence to show that NA1K was systematically lying in order to WP:GAME the system and thereby disrupt consensus-forming processes. That is not harasssment.
It seems that AmericanAir88 is appalled by an editor being called a liar, but entirely unconcerned about the fact that the admin NA1K has lying in order WP:GAME the system,and that NA1K did so in support of a massive beach of WP:NPOV. That says a lot about the priorities of AmericanAir88, and not in good way. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:05, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
I am not appalled by an editor being called a liar, I am appalled that someone of admin status, like yourself thinks they can treat their peers this way. It is not just these examples I provided, you have been proved to harass other users and make untrue claims such as calling NA1K a "liar". I see no violation of WP:NPOV on NA1K's end and only see it on yours. You target this user, you not only target them: You harass and obsess over them. I'm not here to argue, I am here to state that NA1K is not in the wrong and I am shocked by the amount of disrespect you have given me and other editors. AmericanAir88(talk) 01:09, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • @AmericanAir88: I called NA1K a liar because they were lying. I stand by that assertion, and have provided evidence to support it, which you sadly choose to ignore.
I am appalled that someone of admin status, like NA1K, treats their peers so badly by lying to them repeatedly. Their repeated deceit is incompatible with adminship.
And I do not target this user. I respond to their repeated lies.
As to WP:NPOV, NA1K violated WP:UNDUE by making a selection in which over 50% of the geographically-bound articles relate to their own country. NPOV is a core content policy. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:06, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
@BrownHairedGirl: Like I said above, I am not here to argue. I can pull evidence from plenty of previous discussions and your edit summaries as evidence that you are harassing and targeting users. Accusation is not the way to hold a discussion and you are personally accusing NA1K of something they had no intention of doing. Also, how would you know where NA1K lives and if they are making UNDUE edits? Your claim of NA1K having UNDUE edits and a violating NPOV is you trying to start trouble. Again, I do not want to argue and I want to be civil. However, I believe you are harassing and being disrespectful to editors and you need to be held accountable for your actions. AmericanAir88(talk) 02:26, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
@AmericanAir88:: User:Northamerica1000 carries a userbox which says this user lives in the United States of America. I relied on that statement. Is that unreasonable?
As to UNDUE, you can check for yourself in the list posted by NA1K at MFD:Portal:Transport: 19 are generic topics, without particular ties to one country. A majority of of the remainder (i.e 24 out of 45) specifically relate directly to the United States. The 24 are 5=Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel, 6=SS Christopher Columbus, 7=Baltimore Steam Packet Company, 8=AirTrain JFK, 10=American Palestine Line, 11=San Francisco tech bus protests, 12=Congestion pricing in New York City, 13=Greyhound Lines, 14=Pony Express, 17=Metrorail (Miami-Dade County), 19=Bay Area Rapid Transit, 22=Bayview Park ferry wharf, 24=Northwest Seaport Alliance, 25=NYC Ferry, 26=Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, 29=Port Miami Tunnel, 31=Kitsap Fast Ferries, 32=Staten Island Ferry, 35=List of Interstate Highways in Texas, 46=Goat Canyon Trestle, 49=Transportation in Omaha, 59=Forksville Covered Bridge, 60=Interstate 355, 63=New York State Route 28.
It is strange that you dismiss this evidence of bias as me trying to start trouble. If you genuinely want to be civil, that ABF dismissal of my noting a breach of core policy is an perverse way to go about it.
NA1K has had plenty of opportunity to express good faith by saying something to the effect of "oops! yes, that was unintended, but not acceptable. My bad. Needs a fix before it goes live". Instead they have been saying variants of 'former guideline made me do it', which is not true, and 'set of articles made me do it', which is also untrue.
As to accusation ... NA1K posted to the MFD 14 hours before I did, accusing me of making a series of rapid, drive-by edits. NA1K neglected to acknowledge the reason for my revert and instead complained that I had made difficult to update portals. From the info which NA1K belatedly posted at the MFD, I found that the concern over the effects of a hidden article list was justified: NA1K's hidden article list is a POV violation.
If you do not want to argue, why critcise me accusation, but say nothing to say about NA1K opening the discussion with an accusation against me about a revert I made for reasons are justified by the facts? NA1K's massively-POV list would have been spotted promptly if had been visible on the face of the portal. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Delete all portals and topic-ban all Wikipedia editors from ever discussing portals again. It's the only way to be sure. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC) (Not entirely serious, but it would be an improvement over this continued warring.)
    • Oh, and more seriously oppose any punishment of BHG for continuing to carry out this frustrating but helpful task. —David Eppstein (talk) 08:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support #1 I've had enough. Mark Schierbecker (talk) 19:37, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support 2 way iban Support Guy's proposals #3,#4 & #5 - most especially proposal 3, which I'd ideally like to be a no fault iban. While on a much bigger scale, this reminds me of the feud between Dream & Hijiri88 – both excellent editors in different ways, but months of drama followed once they began interacting. The iban they had in Jan seems to have been effective in ending the feud. It was later clarified that both could continue to post in project spaces like ARS, both could post on AFDs etc, they just needed to not talk about each other. Hence Im not sure we need to ban either of them from Portals at this stage, and Id prefer the ban to be no fault. FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:48, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support #1. As an involved editor my opinion may be predictable, but BHG's behaviour is unacceptable and cannot be allowed to continue. The diffs quoted clearly show which contributors are conducting themselves in a civil manner, and that this is not a symmetrical dispute with both sides equally at fault. It would be very unfair to also sanction an editor whose only crime is to be selected repeatedly as a target for abuse. Certes (talk) 22:40, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Sadly, it was entirely predictable that Certes would pile on to support NA1K's diff-farming exercise of mendacity. NA1K created a pile of diffs to "prove" that I had done [need quotation to verify] as NA1K ... yet in reality, the substance of it is that I did almost the exact opposite. The diffs show that I repeatedly noted that the former guideline had been risible; by contrast NA1K cited the guideline as justification for breaching a core policy.
Certes's endorsement of NA1K's reality inversion is a large factor in why portal disputes have become so toxic. NA1K's mendacity and incompetence has persisted because it is repeatedly endorsed by NA1K's cheerleaders and enablers such as Certes, who if they had sufficient competence and integrity would long ago have been asking NA1K to desist.
The fact that Certes's chooses even now to endorse NA1K's lies and smear tactics is just evidence that Certes also needs restraint.
I am heartily sick of accused of "bullying", "harassment" etc for calling out this co-ordinated campaign of mendacity. This project is supposed to be about building a encyclopedia where verifiability is a core policy, and the anti-truth antics of the likes of NA1K in support of their prolific incompetence should have no place in it. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:08, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Where is your evidence for this? Sadly, it was entirely predictable that Certes would pile on Are you suggesting that this editor came here to target you? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:13, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose The issue needs to go to arbcom, where evidence will be properly presented and personal attacks will be subject to clerking. The disorderly proceedings here make portals look good. Andrew D. (talk) 00:02, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • This isn't between two editors though anymore, it is clear from those supporting that BHG has rubbed a number of editors the wrong way. She may be right with her arguments, but in no way does that excuse the poor behavior presented. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:10, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose topic bans and interaction bans. Support an RfC that results in the creation of guidelines for portals. I've closed a lot of the MfD's on these portals, and while some of the discussions have been heated, I haven't seen any that have risen to the level that would justify a topic ban or interaction ban for either of these editors. Having an actual agreed-upon guideline would calm down the whole situation, as it wouldn't require the constant stream of individual portal MfD's, which seem to be causing friction on both sides. ‑Scottywong| [communicate] || 01:59, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
    @Scottywong: I have very limited involvement in XfD and don't close discussions but wow, are regular accusations that the other editor is lying or an idiot, or deceitful or being deceptive or making sneaky changes or has low intelligence or whatever else really a level that is normal enough not to justify a topic ban or interaction ban? (Yes I've concentrated on one of the editor's here, because the other editor's problems are more complicated.) Nil Einne (talk) 02:36, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
    While I would agree that these discussions could be more civil, I also understand that this is a difficult topic and passions run high on both sides. I think that BHG has some valid points, but also agree that those points could be expressed in a more civil manner. My opinion is that this is a relatively minor problem, that should be resolvable without resorting to extreme measures like banning these editors from participating in anything related to portals. In short, I agree that there is a problem, I disagree that items #1-3 in this proposal contain the right solution to that problem. ‑Scottywong| [squeal] || 02:58, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

    My view is that clearly these haven't and most likely can't be resolved without extreme measures. It's been several months. And yet we still have this sort of terrible behaviour. Further, while I'm sure many will attest I often make long posts, I can help but notice every time one of these threads opens on ANI it's soon filled with very very long back and forths mostly (although far from exclusively) between Northamerica1000 and BrownHairedGirl which partly drown other discussions. It's hard for me to imagine how there's any simple solution, or that it's a minor problem which IMO partly explains why we're still here months later.

    And on the topic of the personal attacks, while I've just told another editor that sometimes they need to put stuff said about them they disagree with aside, there is also a limit. IMO these attacks seem to have well breached that limit especially since they are persistent, and I find it very disappointing if we don't treat them that way. It can't be easy to work with someone when they keep saying you have a low intelligence, are a liar etc and I don't think we should expect editors to do so. As I've said before, it's possible to say someone lacks the competence to edit in a certain area without needing to say they have a low intelligence. There comes a point where we have to say enough is enough, and IMO we're well past that.

    A particular problem which BrownHairedGirl doesn't seem to understand is that her attacks are not only angering those she is opposing, they are angering those like me who don't give a fuck about portals. She may have some valid points, but they're often not coming across because she is so terrible at making them.

    And ironically her own words IMO provide a rationale for why it's fair to take action. She lacks the WP:Competence to be able to edit in this area without editing in such away she just puts every off by what she says. I don't know why, and I don't think it matters. I definitely don't think there's any reason to think it has anything to do with her intelligence. But IMO based on the available evidence, it would be best if she is forced aside from the area for the betterment of wikipedia. I'm sure there are others who can argue her PoV, and they'll probably do it far more successfully when BHG hasn't managed to turn everyone against her "side" by her behaviour. (I'm not saying this is a good thing, but I think we have to be realistic that when one of the most outspoken supporters of a PoV is coming across so poorly, it's difficult for that not to colour people's perceptions.)

    Frankly since I only really know about these from when they make them to AN//I, I would be fine just banning any mention of portals on one of the noticeboards for a year and letting them fight it out elsewhere. But I know that's not fair to those involved, nor will it actually solve the problem since someone still has to deal with all the MfDs and other problems that arise.

    Nil Einne (talk) 08:20, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

  • Support #1 - This has become disruptive to the project. There is no rush regarding deleting these portals. How is the project harmed if we leave them be? If an ordinary editor had behaved in this manner would we be here debating? Lets give portals a break. They will still be here in 6 months. Lightburst (talk) 02:16, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Specifically in regard to BHG's conduct, I've created a page listing a few highly uncivil quotes written by BHG in this ANI section. (User:Vermont/BHGANI) I've left my opinions above, although I hope that her blatant incivility in this section, towards multiple editors, sways those on the fence. Vermont (talk) 04:12, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support #1-5 - In anything but the least contentious areas, 1,000s and 100,000s of edits indicate a ferocity beyond natural limits, and naturally induces panic. On this date, an armistice must be declared in the portal wars, enforced upon the resisting combatants. An RfC and guideline (maybe call it a charter?) must guide future developments in the portal area. Excess does not recognize itself, as surely seen in either TTH or BHG. Shenme (talk) 04:14, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose ArbCom is the best venue for these disputes to be resolved as much as possible, which have been intractable in all other venues for many months. I am strongly against punishing @BrownHairedGirl in any way for her remarkable and selfless work cleaning up the portal mess created by others. My personal experience with her as an editor has been informative. We first interacted at CfD and clashed because I didn't know what I was doing there and she called it out, but I had the fortitude to understand I had screwed up in my votes, corrected them, and apologized to her. Our wiki-relationship has had its ups and downs since (yeah, I called her a troll before, which I bet portal fans never realized from our interactions at MfD), but overall, she has been very gracious editing and collaborating with me despite heated clashes and unkind words in the past.
It would be absurd to topic ban her from portals or take away her adminship when the two principal issues at play here are: the swarms of unread junk portals a handful of editors randomly defend for reasons none can articulate and NA1K's ridiculous actions, neither of which are her fault. She's spent well over 1,000 hours over the last seven months cleaning up an enormous mess others created, so please give it a rest that she is in any way the problem in portal-land, which was a 15-year joyride in a candy store that responsible adults have been cleaning up. Newshunter12 (talk) 05:19, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support #2, #3, and #4 if the community thinks that it can resolve this. User:BrownHairedGirl is right on all of the technical issues, and has been trying to pull together an RFC, but has faced opposition from the supporters of portals. However, it is clear that these two editors cannot get along and really do need to be interaction banned. BHG is mostly right that the arguments advanced by User:Northamerica1000 are inconsistent and incorrect, but should not be characterizing them as lies. However, it would be better to let ArbCom handle the matter first, and then see what can be done on content. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:50, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • ArbCom is necessary here, I'm afraid. My frustration with this conflict stems largely from BHG, who - the best and most recent example is here - has continually attempted to block any improvement of portals by saying that we need to have RfCs to determine portal structure and content, while voting to delete almost all portals in spite of a total lack of policy or guidelines on which portals should be kept or deleted. It's a continuous double standard and it's bringing a battleground mentality to an already very contentious area, and it's ending up being incredibly difficult for editors like myself who just want to contribute to the project constructively. I don't see any way forward without ArbCom. SportingFlyer T·C 06:53, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support #1 BHG’s conduct has frankly been reprehensible. Other options should be examined, even desysoping or a recall. This is not acceptable behavior from anyone, let alone an admin. Toa Nidhiki05 16:27, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support #1 BHG's repeated personal attacks need to stop and it is clear that she won't stop voluntarily. I am strongly against taking this matter before the current iteration of ArbCom. They've mishandled too many other situations to be trusted with this one. Lepricavark (talk) 21:02, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose sanctions, support RfC per ScottyWong and BF. Also, I doubt an Arbcom case would be helpful. What's needed is a guideline. Levivich 00:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support #1-5 for a comprehensive solution to a huge problem that has already gone on way too long. Krow750 (talk) 01:46, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • So, BHG recently wrote on her talk page: "So sustained incivility directed at me is fine, but my incivility in response is unacceptable? Wow." To me, this demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of our civility policies, and the place of an administrator as someone who should respond to incivility with maturity and rationality rather than mirroring those who they percieve as uncivil. I believe their level of incivility is significantly worse than anything I've seen from NA1k, although even assuming that NA1k was uncivil, BHG's thought that it's perfectly justifiable to respond in turn is worrying. Thoughts? Vermont (talk) 02:36, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
    • My thought is how wrong I was to assume that my replies to Vermont on my talk page were part of a discussion with an editor who was making a good faith effort to talk civilly about a disagreement. I could and possibly should have halted the discussion when Vermont opened by making false assertions based on their failure to to do 30 seconds of checking before posting, but I foolishly AGfed that there was no malicious intent.
Vermont has already disregarded my request to stay off my talk, and their post here indicates that their aim in the discussion seem to have been to take a quote out of context and weaponise it.
The discussion is at User talk:BrownHairedGirl#Selective_Application_of_Consensus.--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:53, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
You told me I would be welcome to comment on your talk page if I retracted the statements that I copied from you. I specifically retracted them. Stop trying to pretend I'm at fault here. I left a response to you, using your exact wording which you rudely used to describe NA1k. You told me it is "spectacular rudeness" and uncivil, which it is, and when faced with the fact that you wrote it, you reverted my edit and kicked me off your talk page. As I explained, my intention was solely to show to you how rude you are to people who you disagree with, and that you should stop. And no, that quote was not taken out of context; you recognized your replies to NA1k and others are uncivil, but you don't yet recognize how your incivility is against policy. Vermont (talk) 03:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Considering past comments, I could reasonably predict a decent-length wall of text that skirts around the whole bit about her writing rude comments to people and focuses on attacking me for asking her to be civil. Vermont (talk) 03:03, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Vermont, I used the phrase "word soup" to describe a tautologous phrase conveyed no meaning. You abused it to describe a lengthy, reasoned reply, and you have confirmed that your intent as to provoke.
That's cheap trolling, and I have no time for it.
Your statement now that your intention was only to provoke me into something you could cite as rudeness is proof of absolutely nothing other than your own bad faith abuse of my openness to discussion. Your conduct was an uncivil attempt to play disruptive games. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:14, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
You are not allowed to be uncivil to people, I am not allowed to be uncivil to people, NA1k is not allowed to be uncivil to people, no one is allowed to be uncivil to people. You have no right whatsoever to look at someone else's argument, one which they may have spent much more than 10 minutes on, and discount it as junk while regarding your own argument as reasoned and correct. Of course you think you're right, everyone thinks they're right, but that gives you no special priviledge to insult other people while believing you're immune to the 4th pillar of our community. And now you've called me a troll, bad-faith, uncivil, and disruptive, for quoting your words back to you. The people who you used those terms on, Na1k and others, how do you think they felt? Do they not have every right that you do to contribute in an environment free of insult? What about when you called me incompetent in an effort to discount my attempts at an argument at MfD? It's necessary that you recognize your actions in applying rude and uncivil terms against other people, which you recognize are rude and uncivil, is not okay. What if I had called you incompetent, a word which you've used on numerous occasions in discourse? You have no special pass to be uncivil, whether it be because you think you're right, an administrator, or anything else. Incivility is what causes editors to leave our community, and you're doing nothing but perpetuating it with the double-standard I've outlined here. Vermont (talk) 10:46, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose any sanction against BHG unless someone can produce statistics showing that a majority of the portals she has nominated for deletion end up being kept after community discussion. When I stopped participating in the MfDs, BHG's track record was very good—uninvolved editors supported her arguments. Then the pushback started from those that like glitter. Sorry if I missed it, but has anyone ever tried addressing BHG's accusations concerning NA1K beyond exclaiming how naughty the words are? Obviously BHG has become frustrated but that would be due to lack of engagement with the underlying issue. Solving the portal issue based on who can be nice while engaged in a battle won't work. Johnuniq (talk) 03:08, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
    That seems backwards. Shouldn't the real question be whether or not her accusations have ever been proven? Generally, one doesn't need to fall back on rhetoric and insults when a good case can be made without them. Lepricavark (talk) 03:37, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
    Has anyone asked BHG what she is getting at? Has any response been analyzed? My point is that simplistic hand waving is not suitable when there is such obvious conflict over an important issue (should there be limits regarding what portals are created?). BHG is known to be a good and civil editor so the background that has led to the current situation calls for investigation. Johnuniq (talk) 05:55, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
    User:Johnuniq, User:Lepricavark - The statistics that I have been recording on portals do not include who nominated them, but the large majority of the portals that have been nominated for deletion have been deleted, and I am not aware of any portals that were nominated by User:BrownHairedGirl that have not been deleted. Her nominations continue to be detailed and well-researched. Yes, I have "asked BHG what she is getting at". What she is getting at is that User:Northamerica1000 is making unilateral changes to portals in order to improve them to prevent their deletion, but that BHG thinks that the changes do not improve the portals enough to warrant keeping them, and that BHG thinks that NA1k's changes are arbitrary and introduce systemic bias and have other disadvantages. BHG has also objected to the very large number of portals for which NA1k had self-designated as a portal maintainer (at one time as high as 42, although nearly all of those have now been dropped). No one has raised any technical issues that I know of about what BHG has said, except that she has been very uncivil. Johnuniq is correct that the only real criticism of BHG is precisely that her words are naughty, but no one really is answering whether the portals are crud or whether NA1k is making sneaky changes to the portals. My own conclusion is that what NA1k is doing to the portals is something of an improvement, but not enough to warrant keeping them, and that it is being sneaky, and it is introducing systemic bias. That is my analysis, anyway. Robert McClenon (talk) 08:26, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
    @Robert McClenon: It's unfortunate that you are dismissing repeated, rank incivility as mere naughty words. It's also unfortunate that you and Johnuniq can review the above thread, full of BHG posting massive walls of text and attacking the good faith of anyone who disagrees with her, and wonder why people (aside from you, Robert) aren't asking her what she means. However, if were are content to set aside BHG's repeated abuse so that we can launch further accusations of sneakiness at NA1K, then on what basis should we do so? How has he been sneaky (which is an accusation of deliberate bad faith on his part)? And don't refer me to any of BHG's comments. I have no intention of wading through any of her grandiose haystacks hunting for the mythical needle of substance. Lepricavark (talk) 14:30, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
    User:Lepricavark - I was quoting User:Johnuniq when I referred to "naughty words", and recognize that that choice of words minimizes User:BrownHairedGirl's incivility. I am also aware that her incivility diverts attention from the fact that she is almost always right on the facts about portals, and that, because she is insulting other editors, is being ignored on the technical merits. I know why BHG is saying and doing what she is doing. She is being right, but so uncivil and unpleasant that she is being ignored. I don't know why User:Northamerica1000 thinks that it is necessary to save as many portals as possible. I have repeatedly asked the advocates of portals what the purpose of portals is, and I usually don't understand their answers, so that I think that portals must have some mystical appeal to some editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:09, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
    @Robert McClenon: again, where is the evidence that NA1K is being sneaky or otherwise acting in bad faith? Lepricavark (talk) 13:54, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
    User:Lepricavark - I didn't say that User:Northamerica1000 was being sneaky or acting in bad faith. I said that NA1k was making unilateral changes to large numbers of portals to prevent their deletion, often during or immediately before a deletion discussion, but was introducing systemic bias in the process, and had been designating themselves as a portal maintainer for a very large number of portals, and then backed off from that load. User:BrownHairedGirl characterized making all of those changes as sneaky, and that is because the changes are not documented or explained. BHG said that NA1k was acting in bad faith. I have said that NA1k is doing things that are inconsistent and that are not explained. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:40, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
    @Robert McClenon: this is a quote from you, with emphasis added: My own conclusion is that what NA1k is doing to the portals is something of an improvement, but not enough to warrant keeping them, and that it is being sneaky, and it is introducing systemic bias. That is my analysis, anyway. That comment reads differently from your most recent comment. At any rate, we have one admin repeatedly attacking the competence of another admin. They can't both be right and we can't just ignore it at this point. We've reached the stage where either NA1K really is incompetent and should be dealt with accordingly or BHG has made repeated, unsubstantiated personal attacks and should be dealt with accordingly. And I really don't believe that NA1K is incompetent. Lepricavark (talk) 18:53, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
    This is pretty much getting to the nub of the argument here. BHG is making personal attacks and failing to assume good faith, whereas NA1K is making improvements to pages that are nominated for deletion (of course without making them perfect in the limited time available). The first flies in the face of policy, but the second is normal good practice. There is no equivalence between their behaviours. I say this as someone who would be happy to see portals disappear completely, but that is totally irrelevant to discussion of behavioural issues. Indeed one of the reasons that I have declined to state my opinion in any discussion about portals is that anyone who doesn't agree 100% with what BHG says gets flamed, and I prefer not to have to deal with such issues in the limited time that I have to edit Wikipedia between my postgraduate study and looking after my grandson. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:10, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
    User:Lepricavark - Oops. I misquoted myself. No, User:Northamerica1000 is not acting in bad faith. They believe that what they are doing is for the good of the encyclopedia. Yes, they are doing it behind the scenes, without consultation, which can reasonably be characterized as sneaky, and is being characterized that way by User:BrownHairedGirl. They both are doing what they are doing for what they see as the good of the encyclopedia. BHG is right on the merits that the portals are crud and that NA1k is making minimal improvements to them that do not warrant keeping them. BHG is also being so uncivil that she is distracting from the technical correctness of her argument. Yes, no, this should have stopped in the past. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:56, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support All. When half of a long discussion at ANI is taken up by the two editors continuing their battleground behaviour against each other you something needs to be done. Arbcom isn't a stupid idea either, but lets at least get this one underway to start with. AIRcorn (talk) 06:24, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Johnuniq above any sanction against BHG unless someone can produce statistics showing that a majority of the portals she has nominated for deletion end up being kept after community discussion. BHG says above that an editor created (portals) at sustained speeds of up to one per minute, some of them just for the heck of it, and lamented their inability to produce them faster. Most of this portalspam was deleted in April in two mass deletions of similar portals (one, and two), with overwhelming consensus of a very high turnout. I participated in those discussions back then and thought that was the end of it. I can't believe this is still going on. Those portals were junk, BHG worked very hard to clear up the disgraceful mess, she should be commended, not sanctioned.Smeat75 (talk) 21:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
The latter-EEng
The former
Doing good work for the encyclopedia is not mutually exclusive with incivility, and the former does not justify the latter. Colin M (talk) 23:22, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
The mass creation of portals was almost entirely reverted in April 2019. The vast majority of the portals nominated for deletion since then were much older. Certes (talk) 12:04, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support. the battleground mentality is extremely excessive and counter-productive. Sm8900 (talk) 21:31, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment BHG has started another portal MfD while a potential topic ban is underway here. I don't think its a good idea in my opinion as she directly relates to this ongoing discussion. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:53, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
    • AS I just noted at that MFD[60], if and when any topic ban is implemented, I will respect it, as I hope other editors will also respect any bans. But no decision has yet been made.
      The other party to that discussion is NA1K, for whom a topic ban has also been proposed. Since that ANI discussion opened, NA1K has started three portals MFDs: MFD:Portal:Schleswig-Holstein, MFD:Portal:Geography of Kenya and MFD:Portal:UK waterways. If you want some sort of moratorium pending resolution of the ANI, then you should feel free to propose it, but it seems to me that what you are doing here is to make a partisan prejudgemnet of the outcome
I note that KK87 has made no complaint about any of the 3 MFFDs opened by NA1K. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:58, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
My apologies, I was unaware or had forgotten about the other new portal discussions since this thread opened. I generally feel that all parties should take this thread seriously. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:41, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support the proposed topic and interaction bans. It's possible that portal-related disputes will eventually end up at Arbcom, but the community should make an effort to address the problems first. Oppose a suspension of portal deletion discussions, as there have been multiple instances of portals that merited deletion under any plausible standards. The problem is not that some portals are being deleted; it is the behavior of some participants in the portal deletion (and other portal-related) discussions. As far as having another portal-related RfC goes, that hardly seems to require the endorsement of ANI. --RL0919 (talk) 16:49, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose interaction bans and topic bans. A moratorium only makes sense if it's both on creation and deletion. The need for hundreds of separate deletion discussions is a direct consequence of the conclusion of WP:ENDPORTALS (see also Wikipedia:The Problems with Portals for some more links) and it's not BrownHairedGirl's fault, while other users have chosen to repeatedly filibuster the individual examination of portals. I am skeptical about the idea that yet another wide RfC might reach any useful conclusion; it's only a way to waste more time and produce more hard feelings. If there is a concern about consistent criteria for deletion, I would suggest to appoint a working group to divide all the remaining portals in a few dozens groups of portals in similar situations, and then open group deletions in short succession, giving 1-3 months to discuss all the remaining portals. This would allow a larger participation without forcing people to follow small discussions for months or pile on in big drama shows. Nemo 17:05, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support 1 Per WP:ADMINCOND and ongoing issues re BHG, see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive311#Civility_issues_with_User:BrownHairedGirl. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:11, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Example RfC agenda[edit]

  1. As a matter of policy, what is the project-focused goal of portals?
  2. Should portals be required to be active?
    1. If so, what should be the criteria that define an active portal
      1. Miniumum number of active editors?
      2. Minimum number of edits per month?
      3. Update frequency (i.e. number of updates rather than number of edits per update)?
      4. Article updates?
      5. Page views?
        1. Absolute or relative to something else (e.g. main topic page)?
  3. Should we have an anti-gaming criterion?
    1. Updates by editors who do little other than portal updates across multiple topics?
    2. Updates by editors new to the portal, that a reasonable person would perceive as gaming (WP:CLUE)?
  4. What should be the removal process?
    1. XfD, PROD, CSD?
    2. How to prevent "school wars" style voting blocks?
    3. Are there any arguments (other than activity) that are or are not normally relevant to whether a portal should or should not be deleted?
  5. Should there be a bar to creation?
    1. Should there be a review period for newly related portals, e.g. after 12 months, with a low-bureaucracy removal period if they have not survived the initial enthusiasm?
  6. Should there be a bar to nomination for deletion?
    1. Nominations by editors who do little to no constructive work on portals?
    2. Nominations by editors who do little to no work in the topic area?
    3. Nominations by editors who have nominated this or similar portals before?
    4. Nominations who are engaged in a dispute about the contents of the portal?
    5. Nominations by editors who have made significant changes to the portal recently?
      1. What does "recently" mean?
    6. Repeated nominations of the same portal?
    7. Number of concurrent nominations?
  7. Should deletion nominations that fail to advance a reason specific to the individual portal(s) nominated be speedily kept?
  8. Should we continue to link and reference portals from the banner on the Main Page?
  9. In general, should we increase, decrease, or keep-the-same the prominence of portals across the wiki, from the perspective of directing users there?

Feel free to add / amend. Guy (help!) 14:06, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

  • I've added and amended. Thryduulf (talk) 14:25, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
    • Wow! Thryduulf's proposals are yet another attempt to game the system
No other XFD venue has any restrictions on who can nominate pages for deletion. No other namespace or type of page has such restrictions.
Thryduulf is quite blatantly trying to rig the system in favour of the portal fans. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:35, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for the assumption of bad faith. These are simply questions that should be answered by the RfC, I fully expect that the answer to many of them will be that the restriction is not needed but it is important that comparable restrictions for both sides are discussed by the community. Thryduulf (talk) 14:56, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Thryduulf, the bad faith did not need to be assumed. It is structurally bound into your suggestion that only the creators of a particular type of page should be allowed to propose its deletion, because that rigs the field in favour of the creators. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:13, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for confirming you are approaching this topic area with a battleground attitude. Thryduulf (talk) 15:59, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
You're projecting, Thryduulf. The battleground attitude is your attempt to exclude those who disagree with you with portal deletion. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:13, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
BrownHairedGirl, Wow. You're an administrator as is Thryduulf. My mind is blown. I've never seen an admin assume bad faith about another admin. Doug Mehus T·C 16:21, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi, you must be new here! — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 16:08, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
BrownHairedGirl, in order to keep the process fair, there should be no bar to asking a question, even when the answer is obviously "no". Guy (help!) 17:23, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I fully support Guy's proposal. I'm sick and tired of... well, this. At this point, anyone looking for proof that the portal crusade has gotten out of hand in terms of incivility and bad faith need only look up. WaltCip (talk) 15:07, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I've added two more questions about the prominence of portals (one on the Main Page, one more general.) A lot of people seem to be discussing that aspect, and I think we might want to consider whether it is useful or helpful to direct users to portals. I'm extremely skeptical about some of the suggestions to try and revive portals by making them more visible - they've been prominent for a long time, and don't seem to be accomplishing what they were intended for going by the relatively low views and participation. This makes it hard to see why we should be sending users there in their current state. The suggestions to make them even more prominent seem like a solution looking for a problem - all indications seem to be that most users don't need or want portals, and that they're generally just an unnecessary bit of cruft and complication. We can leave the active ones around for the people who use them while sunsetting the general push to make them a major part of the wiki (which, I think, we can all agree had failed, and which it seems hard to justify doubling down on.) --Aquillion (talk) 11:46, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment – As discourse at this overall ANI discussion involves portals and users have expressed some significant interest in portals herein, below is a neutrally-worded, non-partisan notification (as per WP:APPNOTE) regarding a request for comment I have devised.
North America1000 13:43, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

NA1K is gaming the system again[edit]

I have have only just seem this note above[61] about the RFC opened by @Northamerica1000 (NA1K) at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Use of direct transclusion in portals and the newer portal transclusion templates. It is an outrageous abuse of RFC, which invites endorsement on NA1K's stance by simply omitting any mention of the other view.

I am shocked. In the last month I have made numerous proposals to have an RFC on these matters, and have repeatedly asked NA1K to work with me to create a neutrally-constructed RFC to resolve them. NA1K has consistently failed to take up that offer.

Now NA1K has opened an RFC without any attempt at the prior consultation which I have repeatedly offered ... and did not even have the courtesy to notify me of the RFC, despite being very well aware that I have been the major critic of NAIK's ideas.

The RFC which NA1K has opened is appallingly badly structured, because its two questions do not in any way indicate he existence the key issue which I have raised both in my reverts and in many subsequent discussions: the fact that the methods used by NA1K leave the portal with no visible, linked list of the articles used in the portal. This issue is also not mentioned in the lengthy post by NA1K in reply to the nomination, which uses first mover advantage to frame the discussion.

The lack of such a list makes scrutiny of the list much harder, which has led to severe delays in detecting the very poor quality of the lists built by NA1K, e.g. at Portal:Ghana and at Portal:Transport. In each case the very poor quality of list-making was detected only by analysis at the subsequent MFD: discussions: WP:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Ghana and WP:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Transport. (Neither MFD was opened by me)

There is absolutely no remotely plausible way in which NA1K could be unaware of this issue. They have been a party to discussions about it at:

I also posted a long explanation on my talk page in reply to Scottywong, at User talk:BrownHairedGirl#Help_me_understand (permalink)

NA1K has ignore my repeated requests for collaboration, and has instead opened an RFC which they have framed in a way so as tho exclude the key issue in dispute. They have both omitted any mention of my concern, and also omitted from their list of examples cases such as Portal:Wind power, which combines the use of transclusions with a visible list.

This RFC is the complete of opposite of the RFC principle of neutrally framing the issues to seek community comment. On the contrary, it is an attempted stitchup: an attempt to force a decision to be made by considering only the technical issues, while excluding the scrutiny-and-content-quality issue which I have repeatedly raised. So far, it appears to be playing out just as NA1K hoped: their partisan proposal and partisan description of the issues is receiving overwhelming support.

Given the protracted nature of the dispute behind this RFC, and the fact I have made repeated offers to collaborate with NA1K on drafting such an RFC, I cannot see any way in which a competent editor (let alone a competent admin) acting in good faith could have created an RFC which excludes the key point in dispute. WP:GAME says that "Gaming the system means deliberately using Wikipedia policies and guidelines in bad faith to thwart the aims of Wikipedia".

That is what NA1K has done here. It is just the latest instance of the multiple ways in such NA1K has sought to game Wikiedia's consensus-based decision-making processes, and which have led to me to use very harsh and direct terms about their misconduct. My language in response to this has been the subject the of severe criticism; but it has been in response to a long, long pattern of such gaming conduct by NA1K, who has now escalated their antics by blatantly manipulating the RFC process to secure retrospective consensus for the attempt at creating a WP:FAITACCOMPLI for their very poor-quality list-making which they obscured by technical means.

Right now, I see NA1K's gaming of the system raised to a whole new level. As a result, I am feeling more disillusioned about the whole nature of Wikipedia than I have felt in the near 14 years since I started editing here.

I had not previously been persuaded that the huge time-sink of an ArbCom case would be useful. But this latest action by NA1K is a new extreme, and I am shocked that NA1K feels entitled to so brazenly try to game the system while this ANI discussion is open. So I now believe that only an ArbCom case can properly examine the extraordinary scale and scope of NA1K's gaming of en.wp's processes ... but I am unsure whether I have the energy or will to spend weeks diff-farming to challenge the appalling conduct which I am seeing. I just feel physically sick that the wonderful, glorious ideal of a free, verifiable NPOV encyclopedia built by good-faith collaboration can be undermined by NA1K's sustained manipulative conduct, and that so many editors above seem willing to endorse it. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:19, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

User:BrownHairedGirl, he notified no one, except for the above template as well as notices at several places in Wikipedia space, and is is obliged to notify no one. Opening an RFC is not "appalling conduct" or "gaming the system"; it's the way we attempt to form a new consensus. They're typically open for a month, so there's no rush for you to voice your opinion. Please take a wikibreak; if Wikipedia is making you physically ill it's time to stop. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 02:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Sigh. @Diannaa, please read the whole of my post, where I note the cunningly partisan framing of the RFC by excluding the key issue in dispute. For some reason, you have sadly chosen to overlook all the substance of my post, and focus only a minor point. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:56, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Of course I read and understood it; I just don't agree with you. I am logging off now, I am tired. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 03:02, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
@Diannaa, it would have been helpful if you had explained why you believe that was appropriate for NA1K to spend a month ignoring requests to collaborate on an RFC, and then unilaterally frame an RFC to produce the answer which NA1K wants by excluding the key point of dispute. I would genuinely value your explanation, because from where I am sitting after 13 years as an en.ep and nearly 40 adult years involved in political decision-making processes, this looks to me just like the sort of stunt pulled by manipulative political operators, and nothing at all like the sort of collaborative consensus-building which is at the core of what I have always understood to be Wikipedia's principles.
So please explain to me why you apparently believe that NA1K's efforts to construct a partisan framework for a decision are compatible of genuine collaboration. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:31, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Right or wrong, this is just another example why an interaction ban might be for the best. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:17, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
@Knowledgekid87, this RFC demonstrates how an interaction ban would be a truly great recipe for facilitating NAIK's gaming of the system. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:18, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
For anyone just joining us, reading through the RfC is a perfect microcosm of this conflict. As I write, the RfC is currently 12 users for, 0 against, and 1 procedural close for "gaming the system" from the user above. This is a perfect example of how this user has tried to WP:OWN the entire portal discussion and is content to turn it into a battleground when necessary. The difference here is that portal discussions aren't as well attended, see the talk page of Portal:Australia where everyone had agreed on a way forward except for this user, who said an RfC was needed to make any changes. When an RfC was opened up, this user claimed it needed to be closed. When combined with a recent personal attack on the RfC's creator here, I don't see why we're continuing to put up with this sort of behaviour as a community. SportingFlyer T·C 04:34, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
For anyone just joining us, reading SF's comment above is a perfect microcosm of the problem here.
SF doesn't actually engage with the substantive issue, or address the fact that the RFC has been designed to game the system by excluding a key issue from the headline question. Instead, SF follows the well-trodden portal-fan path of attacking the messenger without even mentioning the substance. This attack-the-critic rather than discuss-the-criticism approach has been a regular of portal discussions since the first debates back in February about speedily deleting the portalspam. If this whole matter ever gets to RFC, and if I have the energy to participate, I will be able to produce many dozens of diffs of similar conduct by a group of editors. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:15, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
BrownHairedGirl, if you want there to be an accessible list of all articles that could be transcluded, that could be an outcome of the current RFC, which I think only exists because you have repeatedly asked for RFCs. The "substantive issue" here is tiny and can be fixed in less than three minutes per portal thanks to user:Certes who coded the showall parameter. —Kusma (t·c) 08:55, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
@Kusma: there are actually many possible ways to resolve this, and as I have repeatedly pointed out a solution already existed in the shape of Portal:Wind power, which since Sept 2018 has combined transclusion with display of a visible list. NA1K doesn't even mention that.
But the fact remains that as you acknowledge I have been asking for a month for an RFC on that issue ... and NA1K has chosen to open an RFC on the technical issues which dictate that outcome, without even mentioning why the debate started. NA1K even goes so far as to provide a list of discussions which they carefully selected to omit the many discussions in which I raised that issue of a visible, linked list to facilitate scrutiny. Once again, NA1K is being sly, cunning and deceitfully selective instead of being open and collaborative.
That rigging of the debate's framing and of its list of previous discussions is the sort of deceitful, manipulative conduct which I have seen too many times in low politics, and it is completely contrary to the collaborative principles which are at core of Wikipedia's values. It is gaming the system, and I am utterly disgusted to see NA1K being supported in this sort of manipulative conduct. I didn't join Wikipedia to participate in the sort of manipulative scheming that I have seen so many times in so many political scenarios. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:31, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
BrownHairedGirl, again, this issue is fairly minor and not worth getting all that worked up about. A narrow reading of the RFC makes it completely pointless, as there has never been anybody who said transclusion from article space should be outlawed. As usual in RFCs, people have been trying to make it more useful by expanding the question into other directions: should other means of excerpting be outlawed, and should random transclusion be accompanied by a list? If you could focus on collaborating with the other people in the discussion instead of on NA1k and his behaviour, you could possibly even get consensus for a position of "random transclusion should usually be accompanied by a list". As an aside, the method used on Portal:Wind power only works well for portals with a reasonably narrow focus, and lacks a display of all possible transclusions (which is helpful for troubleshooting and for figuring out whether the entries are appropriate or not). —Kusma (t·c) 10:43, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
@Kusma: aaargh! if you could focus on collaborating
For goodness sake, I repeatedly asked for collaboration, and was repeatedly rebuffed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:25, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Pot, kettle. Now can we do something constructive? —Kusma (t·c) 08:38, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I do think it's a bit bold to start another RFC while we're already discussing much broader and comprehensive RFCs (especially since the outcome of those will probably be important enough to change the context of anything else.) That said, if you think that that RFC doesn't touch the locus of dispute at all, I would suggest starting your own that does - presuming they're genuinely separate issues, or only tangentially-connected ones, then it wouldn't really break anything to have RFCs for both at the same time. If their outcomes turn out to cause problems in a way that can't be reconciled, we might need a third RFC to split the difference. Really, though, it would probably be ideal to put a hold on RFCs until the much bigger comprehensive one described above happens, and to put other questions in that rather than starting a totally new RFC for them. Part of the problem here is that we've had a ton of RFCs and processes with different wording and sometimes-ambiguous outcomes, and nobody agrees on what they all mean. --Aquillion (talk) 18:53, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Evidence NA1k is not gaming the system[edit]
  • I want to highlight the fact BHG's concern is a relatively minor one, and an issue which was talked through at Portal_talk:Australia#Comments_and_analysis_by_BHG. I think the key diffs were here here (my proposal) and here (NA1k). I'm including these because my proposal demonstrates just how minor these adjustments are, that NA1k has agreed with them, and that specifically, NA1k has already agreed with the proposal BHG has made. NA1k was even the user who pinged Certes, the creator of the template, to see how easy it would be to edit the template to make the changes BHG requested! I don't think there's any question NA1k is NOT "gaming the system" with this RfC. They are not trying to push any specific viewpoint at the RfC which differs in any sort of material way from BHG's. The only potential criticism of NA1k is that they didn't accept BHG's offer to work together to propose the RfC, but I can hardly blame NA1k for not seeking BHG's input given the level of animosity between the two. The RfC has only been proposed because BHG threatened to continue blocking any progress on portals until a community consensus existed, even though local consensus had been established at that point!
The primary issue here isn't that BHG's points are invalid about portals - we do need to establish rules for portals - but that the way this particular user has behaved towards that process has been severely disruptive and full of personal attacks. We're now at a point where the first RfC is being solidly supported in spite of the fact NA1k, the user and administrator who suggested it, is a sneaky low competence editor who is also apparently either a liar, idiot, or both, which I think further demonstrates the level of disruption here. SportingFlyer T·C 11:08, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
  • SF, I'll unpick that.
  1. Note that the key issue in the October ANI was that I had reverted a few dozen portals to a version where there was a visible, linked list of articles, which allow the scrutiny that was impeded by NA1K's edit. You say that NA1K has accepted that; but at no point in that Australia discussion does NA1K explicitly accept that point. The closest they get to it is their post of 09:10, 18 October they ask about feasibility, which is a different issue, and state I don't think portal improvements such as this should entirely hinge upon whether or not a template is able to be changed, and that otherwise portals should remain unimproved. There are other ways to get the exact same result. So they are still trying to knock this back to being a technical issue rather than a key component.
  2. In that Australia discussion I made the very point that Per WP:MULTI they should be decided in a central discussion, and per WP:LOCALCON they should seek broad community consensus through a properly advertised RFC. Sadly, the portal platoon is stubbornly resisting these basic principles of en.wp consensus-building, and instead is trying to keep these choices off the radar and hidden away as local discussions on individual pages.
    Yet you are now trying to tell me that fact an RFC has been opened proves how wrong I was to ask that there be an RFC.
  3. That need for scrutiny has been amply illustrated at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Transport, where belated scrutiny after NA1K finally created a visible linked list showed that they had actually crated a massive breach of NPOV. It took five days after POV issue that was noted before NA1K belatedly acknowledged that they had indeed beached NPOV, tho the form of word used carefully avoided accepting any responsibility for that, by describing the edits in a passive voice.[64]
  4. If, as you claim, NA1k has already agreed with the proposal BHG has made, why was there absolutely no mention of that point in the RFC? If it was accepted, then it should be been mentioned as a requirement for the templates. But it wasn't.
If, as you claim, NA1K is not a low competence editor:
  • why didn't NA1K explicitly state anywhere that they had accepted my point about a visible list?
  • if they had accepted it, why did they launch an RFC without noting that it needed to be achieved?
  • Why did the allegedly not-low-competence editor NA1K create a massive breach of NPOV which was undetected due to the lack of that visible list?
  • Why the allegedly not-low-competence editor NA1K rage at ANI in October at the reversion of non-transparent edits, when they now (according to SF) accept the need for that transparency, even though the need for scrutiny has been confirmed NA1K's half-hearted acknowledgement of their huge POV breach.
What you are saying in effect is that BHG is wrong because she was right about every single point she has raised. I hope you can see the contradiction. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:07, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Enough. First, I'm absolutely astounded that you decided to make yet another personal attack against Northamerica1000 in your response. I'm also astounded that an administrator with your tenure and edit count fails to take a post which directly relates to your behaviour and turns it into a "well I was right" as if the ends justify the means.
Furthermore, every single point in your responses involves the other editor.
1. It seems as if your goal here was to hold all portals in a frozen state until an RfC was created and agreed upon. You reverted dozens of portals through a misuse of WP:BRD. (I'm not going to dig for diffs, but did you even discuss this with Northamerica1000 after they made these changes?)
2. I think this is categorically false, as demonstrated by my diff here - at no point were any of the involved parties trying to gain a local consensus in lieu of a general consensus. We were trying to gain a local consensus to immediately improve the Australia portal. You were not wrong to ask for an RfC, and you will note I proposed opening an RfC as part of the way forward. However there is nothing wrong with creating local "law" where no community-wide "law" exists, especially when the discussion has been relatively well-attended, and only one party dissents.
3. As an experienced administrator, you should have been either able to create a visible linked list or view the source without putting the burden on the other editor.
4. NA1k is under no obligation to satisfy you. You have been harassing them since at least April (that diff isn't necessarily harassment, but it's indicative of the start of this mess.) The RfC directly relates to your mass reversion of their work on portals because of their template choice. I have absolutely no idea why you chose to take the route of bulk reversion instead of using civil discourse, especially since the problem you identified was solved simply by pinging the creator of the template. You have used a gun to hammer in a nail, and yet you are standing here claiming your actions were justified because the nail currently holds the beam together, whereas we are all concerned about your choice of the gun, not at the result.
What I am in effect saying is that I am absolutely shocked an administrator of your stature has continually harassed another administrator for a period of half a year and I'm shocked you haven't been desysopped or banned. If I had chosen any one of your actions as a lonely five-digit-edit-count editor, I would have been very lucky to escape a block. If that doesn't clarify to you how seriously I'm taking your actions (as opposed to the outcomes of those actions, though one of those outcomes is this lengthy ANI thread), I don't know what will. SportingFlyer T·C 04:57, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Reply to BrownHairedGirl: Northamerica1000 and you don't get along. That's obvious. And it's pretty obvious too to see why he would not be interested in working with you: the constant barrage of insulting, demeaning remarks you have directed his way. Instead of subjecting himself to more of that by attempting to work with you, he's decided to move forward on proposing changes to the way portal pages are constructed and independently opened an RFC, which is gaining support. This doesn't mean there's a cabal or a political conspiracy against you or that he's gaming the system or being sneaky; it simply means that consensus might be in favor of his proposals at this time. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 12:14, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Time for action here as seen above .--Moxy 🍁 12:28, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Regretfully I have to agree. This isn't an "everybody but me" type of thing when multiple editors try and give advice to BHG. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:30, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
@Diannaa, at the October ANI, I repeatedly stressed the need for RFCs. I did so many times after that closed, and I repeatedly sought collaboration to make a neutrally-framed RFC. At any point, NA1K could have said "no, I don't want to work with you", which any editor is entitled to do for whatever reason (WP:NOTCOMPULSORY). Instead the only comments they made to object to the principle of holding an an RFC ... until they decided to proceed unilaterally, and did so despite recent discussion at WT:POG where sever editors agreed on the need to define RFC questions
I get you message loud and clear: that my attempt to reach across the divide and collaborate on a neutral question was wrong, and that my choice not to act unilaterally was wrong ... but that NA1K's choice to proceed unilaterally without even acknowledging the key point in dispute was absolutely fine and dandy.
Your message is very loud and clear: that I should have acted unilaterally, and opened an RFC framed solely according to my priorities, and thereby gained first mover advantage. And I hate that way of working, I have been in too many work environments where that sort of stunt is pulled, and I know well how it is done ... but it's a really bad way of building consensus. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:22, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
That's not what I said at all. There's more thoughts on your talk page. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 03:56, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Previous portal discussions[edit]

This is almost certainly incomplete, please expand it with any I've missed, and possible improve the order - I've run out of time. Thryduulf (talk) 14:54, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for posting these Thryduulf. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 18:58, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

The original AN portal discussion[edit]

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive307#Thousands_of_Portals

Declined ArbCom Case[edit]

Misconceived RFC proposals[edit]

The problem with the RFC proposals above is that they try resolving a problem by focusing on its symptoms rather than its causes.

The underlying causes of the problems with portals are fairly simple:

  1. WikiPortals are functionally redundant to head articles, cross-linking, navboxes, and search. Readers don't need them and don't use them. (even the 8 portals linked from the prime place on the mainapge are massively underused compared to other mainpage items)
  2. Nearly all WikiProjects have rationally abandoned the portals within their scope (thanks to User:Britishfinance for identifying this problem)
  3. Most content-creating editors have also rationally abandoned portals for similar reasons.
  4. Despite the evident functional redundancy and lack of reader interest, the community has declined either to delete all portals, or to lay down conditions for their existence.
  5. That leaves most portals without wider scrutiny, and all of them without any guidelines
  6. Some portals are developed or maintained by lone editors who bring demonstrable skill (e.g. Portal:Law/BD2412)
  7. Most of the rest have become a playground in which portal enthusiasts with low general skills and no demonstrable expertise in a topic can make huge changes without scrutiny.
  8. Portals do not require the normal intellectually-taxing editing process of discussing how to use which sources, which has left portalspace dominated by such low-skill editors. Some have technical expertise in tasks such as coding, but nearly all lack experience and skill with actual content, and lack skill both in applying policies and in discussing disagreements to reach consensus.
  9. This low-skill group has found a comfortable niche in the vacuum created by the rational abandonment of portals by readers and content-creating editors. Portals are the only part of Wikipedia where they can design and maintain large reader-facing pages, with almost free rein on the content, because what little scrutiny is applied usually only comes only from within the low-skill group.
    • For example, Portal:Transport was one of dozens of portals rebuilt by a highly energetic but massively incompetent and serially mendacious editor, who built a hugely POV article list for the portal by a) maximising the number of articles with no regard to bias, even tho a smaller set could have been less biased; b) working off the assessment lists of only one Wikiproject, even tho there are 22 WikiProjects within the field. This level of stupidity doesn't last long in article space, where it is outnumbered by skilled editors, but it has flourished in the under-scrutinised portal space.
  10. This low skill base of the portal crew as a whole is long-standing, and is evident in multiple ways: e.g. the failure to establish and sustain community consensus for guidelines on the nature of portals; the extraordinary flakiness of the former featured portals process, which conducted assessments with no checklist of criteria and focused overwhelmingly on presentation rather than on substantive content; the systemic failure of the portals project to assess the quality and importance of portals (most are unassassed); the ease with which they were lured into support/acquiescence with TTH's automation spree, and then for his spam; the persistence of
  11. As has happens with content areas of Wikipedia which have become dsyfuctional walled gardens (e.g. longevity and its piles of GRG-cruft, or various types of fiction which became filled with fancruft), the portalspam episode triggered scrutiny by outsiders who have tried to trim the low quality cruft. This outside involvement has been bitterly resented by the portal fans, many of whom lack skills which would be transferable to actual encyclopedic content. For some of them, the low-quality magazine-style portals are the only area of Wikipeda where they can thrive, and they are understandably frightened and threatened by the squeeze on their ecosystem. They have responded with rage, low quality dissembling and deceptions, and with demands to exclude no-fans from scrutiny of portals.

This can be resolved only by the community resolving the core issues, roughly in this order:

  1. Why keep portals when readers don't use them?
  2. What precise purpose is supposed to be fulfilled by portals? These are pages which consist of a one-at-a-time display of articles from a non-prominent list of articles with no stated clear criteria. What exactly does this offer which is so important that we should keep it even thou readers don't want it?
  3. To what extent do any portals actually fulfil that purpose?
  4. How can a topic-based portal be sustained when the editors and WikiProjects who work on that topic have no interest in the portal?
  5. Apart from deletion, how can we prevent under-scrutinised portals being effectively captured by incompetrent editors, as happened e.g. to Portal:Transport and Portal:Ghana, Portal:Chad

--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:16, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Oppose because this doesn't seem to address the core problem or, more accurately, question, either, which is why users aren't using portals. To me, they're not prominently placed on the homepage. Instead the homepage is cluttered up with useless "featured articles," "did you know" and "on this day" factoids, and featured photos. The sister projects and other areas of Wikipedia links are useful, but they're all located "below the fold." To me, the DYKs and FAs are useless wiki puffery in which editors clamour for getting their articles featured on the homepage. We waste TOO much time on DYK and FA voting instead of improving Wikipedia. The homepage should be, fundamentally, a navigation aid; not a collection of daily-changing article links. Doug Mehus T·C 17:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Dmehus, getting content on the Main Page is a fun little game that encourages some people to write better articles. It is not clear that taking away the motivation of seeing your article on the Main Page would make people volunteer more in other areas. As for your proposal of turning the Main Page into a navigation aid: we have Portal:Contents which tries that but doesn't do it well. —Kusma (t·c) 19:36, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Kusma, I agree with your comments on Portal:Contents not doing it well; it's too text heavy. I'm just saying, to me anyway, I find the Wikipedia homepage wholly irrelevant. Rarely does an interesting topic get featured I look it. In fact, of late, I've been accessing Wikipedia via the first article page that comes up (usually Canadian Tire Services or Motusbank, both now redirects to other pages). From there, I check my "Watchlist" and then check on a few WikiProjects; hence my thinking to making the Portals figure more prominently and have the FAs and DYKs take up much less "screen real estate." Doug Mehus T·C 19:40, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment – In response to the neutral point of view concerns that have been presented regarding Portal:Transport, I have removed most, but not entirely all of the U.S.-based entries from the portal (diff). Removing all of the U.S. based portals would conversely present a non-neutral point of view of intentionally avoiding all U.S. based topics. Per this, I have also removed some U.K-related articles, because after removing the U.S.-based articles to balance it out, the portal would have been slightly slanted toward U.K. related topics.
The portal would certainly now benefit from more additions to further round it out in relation to presenting additional transport-related articles from various areas of the world. I hesitate to add any new articles to it, because at this point, article selections should be discussed on its talk page. Of course, now one could state that there are too many or not enough of one type or another type of topic present in the portal, such as it now having too many engine-related transport articles, as in articles involving transport regarding vehicles that use engines, not enough animal-powered transport articles, too many port-related and nautical-related articles, too many historical-related articles, too many articles that involve modern aspects of transport, not enough aviation-related articles, etc., and also vice-versa per these notions. Furthermore, it could be argued that some transport-related topics are presently not covered in the portal. So, if the portal is retained, I encourage talk page discussion to occur.
As I have stated at the MfD discussion, there was no intention of creating a non-neutral portal. Articles were added relative to WP:POG, where it states, "For the Selected article, Selected biography or other Selected content items, find a good number of articles, as many as you can, that could be showcased on the portal" that are "of high quality, either a featured article, a good article or one which deals with its subject substantially or comprehensively". While WP:POG is no longer a guideline page, many portals are still based upon it, and it is common sense to use high-quality articles in portals. However, I certainly understand that article selections in portals should not favor one geographic area over another, and that elements of systemic bias that may exist in various areas of English Wikipedia should not be reflected in portals.
The following is a list of articles that are used in the portal as transclusions after the above edit occurred on 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Transcluded article list for Portal:Transport, as of 13 November 2019 (UTC) (Permanent link)

1 Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore) 2 London congestion charge 3 MTR 4 London Underground 5 Horses in the Middle Ages 6 SS Christopher Columbus 7 AirTrain JFK 8 Irish Mercantile Marine during World War II 9 Oil tanker 10 Flag of convenience 11 Congestion pricing 12 Bayview Park ferry wharf 13 Ambulance 14 Port of Split 15 Calais 16 Port of Ploče 17 Road transport 18 Semi-trailer truck 19 Intermodal container 20 General aviation in the United Kingdom 21 Timeline of the London Underground 22 Rail transport 23 Steam locomotive 24 Innherredsferja 35 Transport in the Soviet Union 26 High-speed rail 27 Bulk carrier 28 Electric vehicle warning sounds 29 Electric vehicle 30 Kochi 31 Port of Skagen 32 Port of Rijeka 33 Ice trade 34 Skateboarding 35 Cycling 36 Car 37 Canadian Pacific Railway 38 Winter service vehicle 39 Indian Railways 40 Hybrid vehicle 41 Boeing 747

North America1000 15:40, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

(Sub-colloquy on issues with creating an RFC)[edit]

  • @Dmehus: The en.wp main page gets an average of about ~16 million hits per day. The 8 highest-level portals are linked from the absolutely prime real estate on that page, but get only ~1500 hits per day each.
So even if we make the absurdly generous assumption assume that every hit for those portals comes from a mainpage link, that leaves us with less than one in every thousand visitors to the main page using even one of those very prominent portals.
Readers are voting with their feet, and shunning WikiPortals just as they shunned webportals as soon as better navigation tools became available in the late 1990s (powerful search, and massive cross-linking facilitated by CMSes). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:27, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
This still does not explain why your stopping progress on portals. Just cause you hate them is not a reason to block attempts at there improvement or to verbally rape other editors.--Moxy 🍁 00:15, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Sigh. I am not stopping progress on portal. On the contrary, I have repeatedly asked NA1K to collaborate on opening RFCs to resolve key issues around how portals should be built, and that offer remains open.
Sadly, NA1K prefers to make unilateral decisions and create a widespread WP:FAITACCOMPLI, rather than build consensus. They prefer to sneakily and stealthily create a massive breach of POV, without even notifying the topical WikiProject ... and then cite in support of their efforts a guideline which was delisted with their support, which has in any case has never supported POV-pushing.
The Moxy notion of stopping progress on portals is no more than another of Moxy's bullying ways of saying that I am an evil cow for seeking transparency and consensus. It's all much the same logic as Moxy's efforts at MFD:Portal:Lighthouses to bully me into abusing my AWB tools to implement a personal preference of Moxy's for which Moxy refuses to seek consensus. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:51, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Why cant you look at yourself in the mirror here and see what you are doing wrong rather than going with a "everybody but me" kind of defense. Can you do a self evaluation to see why so many editors are saying the same things? you aren't at fault for arguments, you are at fault for your conduct. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:16, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
KK87, I have looked v hard. No amount of pile-on will alter my view that the structure and population of portals should be decided by consensus at RFC, rather than decided by one prolific editor trying to create a WP:FAITACCOMPLI. No amount of pile-on will alter my view that stealthily creating a black box portal with massive POV issues is a problem wrt core policy. No amount of anger from Moxy will alter my refusal to breach AWB rules.
My conduct is a mater of challenging these things. Sadly, it seems that there is much greater concern about the tone and language with which that is done than with the substantive problems, which remain unresolved. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:18, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
@BrownHairedGirl: if you want an RfC, why didn't you just start working on one? If anyone refuses to work on you in designing the RfC then it's their own fault. By your own admission there are plenty of other "portal fans" who can work on you in making a good RfC. Provided you give Northamerica1000 and anyone else entitled to participate, the opportunity to participate, without continued name calling etc, and anyone who does participate gets equal voice, then it seems to me the community is likely to reject anyone's complaints about the RfC. (But these conditions do have to be met. For example, if you work on this in a personal sandbox and barely mention it to anyone else, don't be surprised if the community accepts that the drafting of the RfC wasn't done in a reasonable fashion given how contentious this whole thing is.) Of course if everyone else is so sick of portals that almost no one new participates in the RfC then I guess the outcome of the RfC isn't going to help, but still that doesn't seem to be your concern. From what I've seen, I imagine the more likely scenario is that the drafting of the RfC degenerates and you all won't be able to come to consensus what should be in the RfC which is why I supported all of Guy's proposals. At a minimum, I suggest you should first try to come agreement on how the final wording of the RfC should be decided that everyone is happy with. It would be good if User:Northamerica1000 explicitly agrees to participate in drafting an RfC but at the same time I can understand their reluctance to agree to something so abstract after all this time. Especially made in the middle of this highly contentious ANI. (I believe you said you made this proposal before, I don't know where and why Northamerica1000 didn't agree but IMO it's not worth discussing.) Nil Einne (talk) 09:25, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
@Nil Einne: I didn't start working alone on an RFC because that can look like a "please approve my draft" exercise.
I thought we were far more likely to get a productive process if the RFC evolved out of dialogue. And given the amount of disruptive unilateralism that has been happening around portals, I was trying to lead by example rather than simply creating my own fait accompli. Sadly, it seems that I was mistaken, and that the preferred modus operandi is to charge ahead unilaterally and then yell "bullying" etc when challenged. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:10, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

@BrownHairedGirl: For clarity, I wasn't suggesting you start working alone on an RfC and then submit it for approval. I guess I didn't explain very well but I was suggesting that was the sort of thing which the community (and I don't mean those you may call "portal fans") is likely to reject such a process as flawed and is the sort of thing you shouldn't do. In fact, an RfC evolving out of dialogue was precisely what I was suggesting.

Find a place where it's suitable (as said, I think definitely no one's sand box) and mention briefly what you want to do. I have no idea if there is some sort of noticeboard that those involved in portals are likely to read, I suspect not from what I've read. In which case it would probably be fair to invite people to it using some process which isn't canvassing but ensures most who are highly interested in portals, whether generally supportive or opposed, are invited. I assume it's likely Northamerica1000 would end up invited in such a case, I would hope they would participate but if it not they would still have to accept the result of a fair process. Since you started it, it may be necessary to prod the process along by making some initial proposals and other stuff, it may not be.

Ultimately provided everyone is given a fair chance, IMO it will be hard for people to complain. But someone needs to at least initiate it. (As said, IMO the far bigger problem is what happens when you have a dispute, unfortunately I have no simple suggestions for that. A mini non advertised RfC on an RfC can sometimes help, but not always.)

My main point was there was no reason why Northamerica1000's not responding to your suggestion had to be a roadblock to developing any RfC. Nor would it mean the RfC wouldn't evolve in a fair process out of dialogue with all interested parties feedback and views taken on board fairly in it's development.

It seems to me this is the way to lead by example. And if I'm blunt, not what you've done. There's no need for anything to be unilateral or "fait accompli", but nor do you have to wait for any particular editor to respond. Especially since I believe you feel, there are plenty of our editors who's views are not that far from Northamerica1000. Continually fighting with another editor, to the extent that you are making personal insults that do not in any way advance the conversation, whatever their failings, is not in my book, leading by example.

I get that you strongly disagree with a bunch of stuff Northamerica1000 has done, but it doesn't justify what you've done, and maybe more importantly, what you've done IMO often hasn't helped anything. Personally, I think it would have been better to just ignore some of the stuff, while I haven't looked in great detail, even if the changes Northamerica1000 made were not beneficial, from what I saw none of it was so bad that it really matter so much if it was instantly reverted, let alone make such an aggressive challenge understandable even if I can understand why you weren't happy about the way it came about. Still if you wanted to challenge it, you could do so in a manner which didn't require all this, while continuing the development of the RfC with whoever else was taking part.

If you had developed a successful RfC with other interested parties, ultimately the portals NorthAmerica1000 worked on would need to comply. I think the community would rightfully reject any attempt by them to keep them in a manner which didn't comply with our guidelines simply because they just changed them when they were aware of the controversy and chose to go ahead anyway.

IIRC, I intentionally did not support any action against any editor last time this was at ANI precisely because I hoped someone would do something which would help improve the situation. From where I stand, you could have done that, but you didn't hence why we're here now and why I'm now supporting.

Again, you didn't have to do anything unilaterally or in a "fait accompli" manner. IMO you should have led by example by doing something which would hopefully help lead us out of the mess we're in now, precisely by starting a dialogue for an RfC (and whatever else). Actually, it was already a bit late by then as other than it already having IMO gone on for too long, I expect the process would have been more fraught than it needed to be since the parties clearly were quite annoyed with each other for various justified reasons which yes included what you'd said. (To be clear, I'm in no way suggesting that was the only thing, or that you didn't also have good reasons to be seriously annoyed.) But I still hope that even now, you all are able to put that aside and come up with something to put to the community and we won't know until it's tried.

Technically it could be anyone to start the process, including me. In fact having a neutral party who takes a more leading rule is often the best way to minimise problems. But I'm not interested especially given my often expressed attitude towards the portal disputes, and don't think I have the experience. And it's not clear to me anyone else is that interested. And frankly seeing all that's happened at ANI would likely put many off, and again yes this includes but is by no means exclusively referring to what you've said and done.

Nil Einne (talk) 13:09, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

@Nil Einne: since we were discussing RFCs, please see the note I posted[65] below at WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#NA1K_is_gaming_the_system_again. Briefly, after a month of ignoring my request for an RFC, NA1K has attempted to game the system by unilaterally opening an RFC which frames the issue so as to entirely exclude the concerns which have repeatedly raised.
This is just the latest of dozens of episodes in which NA1K has tried to game the system. It has repeatedly provoked me to anger and to using harsh descriptions of the misconduct ... but this latest stunt is so blatant that it actually made me physically sick. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:46, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

@BrownHairedGirl: I've been debating whether to post this since you're clearly quite unhappy and I don't want to add to that, but here goes. I'm not happy about the way NA1000 has handled various matters and yes I do agree that opening the RfC when there was active discussion of what to ask at an RfC is one of the things which isn't good. That's why I supported a topic ban of both of you.

But at the same time, I'm unconvinced that opening this RfC was really that big a deal. The issues you want to ask, don't seem to be greatly affected by this RfC. If the community decides to allow transclusion, it's not going to prevent us deciding to only keep portal where there is an active WikiProject supporting them. It's not even going to stop us deleting crap portals.

And this gets maybe at the heart of why I think your approach, putting aside the civility issues, doesn't seem to be ideal. I appreciate you feel that NorthAmerica1000's changes are often not an improvement. Yet you seem to acknowledge most of the portals they tried to improve were totally crap and seriously outdated before. In my opinion the changes are actually an improvement considering how poor some of the portal were before. (Okay I only looked at 2 or 3.) I'm not saying they aren't also flawed since I agree with you on some of the issues e.g. systemic bias in article selection. But of course wikipedia works by collaboration and even if NorthAmerica1000 makes mistakes, provided they're willing to accept changes by others, that's how things are supposed to work.

More to the point, from what I've seen in some of the recent MfDs one of the issues is some editors feel that they cannot properly assess the portals since what you've done has effectively blocked possible improvements. I haven't see any reason why these changes are really so damaging or harmful that they warrant such strong resistance from you.

Your primary objection seems to be in the way these changes have been carried out. In that way, the RfC, as much as I'm unhappy about how it was opened, may actually be beneficial. You and others will have the opportunity to discuss, hopefully with the involvement of others in the community, one possible (but not mandatory) way of constructing portals. If you have specific concerns about what is being proposed, then hopefully these will be considered and dealt with. Then, in future, NorthAmerica1000 or anyone else will be required to consider the result of this RfC in any changes they make.

This won't deal with your other concerns but it doesn't have to. If NorthAmerica1000 etc are given time to make the changes to portals they feel will improve them enough so that community agrees to keep them, then hopefully the MFDs will be clearer. People will feel, that those who argue the problems can be solved have been given the chance and if they've failed, then this supports the decision to delete. Or maybe their results won't be futile and the community will feel that actually it's okay to keep their portals. I don't consider either outcome bad, and don't think you should either. I do not believe there's a strong mood in the community to keep something just because someone has spent a lot of time on it, so the amount of time they spend on it is IMO not going to be a barrier towards deletions unless it results in improvements sufficient to allay any concerns.

The only risks I see is that 1) because improvements take time, it may slow down the deletion process since people will feel that it's better to give the portals some time for development before deletion. But I do not feel this is a big deal, since I do not see any big problem with those few extra weeks or months. 2) This RfC may reduce the community's appetite on portals for more discussion like that wish you propose since the community is already sick of portals. But frankly the community is IMO getting even more sick of it from these very long and challenging ANIs. Okay people at ANI are not necessarily the same people who will participate in an RfC but still, I'm not convinced that one RfC matters much.

I will add that this whole latest saga on the RfC also adds into my feeling the way you've handled this hasn't helped. As said, I don't see any reason why you needed to wait for Northamerica1000 to construct the RfC, nor that it needed to be unilateral "approve what I've done" thing. You could hopefully have involved others and made a good go at it. If you had done so weeks or even months ago, we may now have an example of the proper way to go about things and could clearly contrast it with what Northamerica1000 did. But we don't have that, all we have is that you asked Northamerica1000 to participate in making an RfC but they ignored you which is a bit better than what Northamerica1000 did, but not much. (I mean it's possible no one would have worked with you in making the RfC. In that case, you could at least demonstrate how you tried and if everyone else really refused to participate, you'd have good justification for unilateral writing an RfC.)

P.S. One of the things that tempers my concern is that IIRC, there were about 50 or so portals that NorthAmerica1000 tried to edit. This is quite a few, but it's IMO not rising to sufficient concern to warrant some sort of immediate reversion. I'd note that while I've mostly stayed out of these portal problems I did IIRC !vote to ban whoever that was that mass created portals last year because that seemed clearly out of control. Also this is only one RfC. If NorthAmerica1000 keeps opening RfCs on different issues while ignoring the RfC you and others are developing, this would also cause great concern.

Nil Einne (talk) 10:01, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Throw-Away Comment on RFC[edit]

User:Nil Einne - I usually agree with User:BrownHairedGirl on substantive and technical issues about portals, although I very much wish that she would be civil when she is correct. However, I think that I am less optimistic than User:BrownHairedGirl about the possibility of a useful RFC on portals. I tried publishing an RFC on what I thought would be a straightforward matter, which was ratifying the portal guidelines that were commonly assumed to be in place, for more than a decade. These were frequently cited by portal advocates as saying that portals should be about broad areas. In fact, they said more than that, so that quoting just "broad areas" missed the mark. However, even that proposal, to ratify a long-standing statement, didn't get a consensus. I would like to see a consensus on something about portals, but I am not optimistic, and I don't think that the advocates of portals know why they want portals. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:24, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

you "don't think that the advocates of portals know why they want portals"? it seems obvious to me. there are SOME portals that serve a useful purpose. "they want portals", in that they want portals as a whole to exist. Sm8900 (talk) 14:55, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
oh, just re-read your statement. ok, yes, ratifying existing guidelines shouldn't be that hard. not sure why it didn't go through. can you please provide a link? Sm8900 (talk) 15:01, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
User:Sm8900 Here should be a link to the RFC that has been downgraded to a failed proposal:

Robert McClenon (talk) 16:25, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

ok, it seems you wanted consensus, and didn't get it. ok, that still doesn't mean thaat supporters of portals "don't know what they want." Sm8900 (talk) 04:14, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
User:Sm8900 - I think that they want portals because they think that portals are cool, and because creating a portal is fun. That is what I think. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:28, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
I think they consider portals to be a valid and useful part of Wikipedia. Sm8900 (talk) 04:33, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: I actually agree with you it's easily possible there will be no consensus. I've largely glossed over it because BHG seemed to feel that a big part of the problem was that NA1000 did not work on developing an RfC with them. If BHG develops and RfC but there's no useful result, that is unfortunate. But it actually adds to my view there's no reason to get so worked up about it. If the community doesn't share your concerns, even if it's a case of no consensus rather than a consensus against what you want, you have to accept that's how they feel and so things aren't necessarily going to go your way. Sometimes you have to let things be even if you aren't happy with the outcome. To me it seems particularly the case here, since the minimal reader involvement is an added reason why it doesn't matter much. I'm not saying we should allow anything, and if people did turn portals into a place where BLPvios, conspiracy theories, highly POV content etc flourished I would agree with a strong level of concern. But I do feel that the community would feel the same. And from what I've seen this isn't really happening at this time. There may be issues like system bias, very outdated info etc, but not much of this. Nil Einne (talk) 10:01, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
P.S. It's possible my views are somewhat influenced by my participation at the reference desks as quite a few also feel they are completely useless and should be closed down. But I do feel sometimes even though you don't like something, you have to take a step back and ask your self whether it's really that big a deal or whether it might be better to just let it be even if you're not happy about it. Nil Einne (talk) 10:08, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
@Nil Einne: being able to accepting that consensus is sometimes against you is a core attribute which is required to participate effectively on Wikipedia. That has happened to me many thousands of times over the last 13 years. It's how it goes.
But that's a whole different issue to gaming the system create an outcome which doesn't actually reflect the broad consensus. That dents anyone's faith in the whole basis of Wikipedia. I have never seen such sustained gaming of the system as that which NA1K indulges in. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:20, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Proposed: take this to Arbcom[edit]

But first, please read this: [66]

I propose that this be taken to Arbcom on the basis of it being a dispute that the community is clearly unable to resolve.

I further propose that one of you who is into this sort of thing post a draft Arbcom request in your userspace and invite your opponents to comment/edit, with the goal of having an Arbcom request that is endorsed by at least some of the major players. The main request should be a NPOV question; you can lobby for what you want done in your Arbcom comment section. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:37, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Guy Macon, the problem is that ArbCom can't take on the core issue, which is: do portals have a purpose, and if so, what criteria, if any, should govern their creation, maintenance, and deletion. A bit like infoboxes, where the finding was "meh" on whether to have them or not but beatings for everyone who warred over them. Guy (help!) 17:51, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Arbcom was able to help resolve some of the intractable problems re:infoboxes; surely a case is worth considering re:portals. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 18:01, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree. All we are going to get from an RfC is the usual characters having the same argument again (as you can see from the "Support #1" votes above from the Portal supporters). This needs to go to ArbCom who can look at the behaviour of all parties dispassionately. Black Kite (talk) 18:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Diannaa as well. While Arbcom won't say yay or nay to having a portal, it can address the behavior issues within the battle. — Ched (talk) 18:13, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
I know! We can have the WMF Trust & Safety Team solve this!! (Guy Macon runs for cover as everyone throws things at him...) --Guy Macon (talk) 18:26, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Arbcom declined a case on this topic already in March 2019: hereDiannaa 🍁 (talk) 18:52, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
I understand your thinking - and perhaps right at the moment isn't best, but once ACE2019 has been resolved, I think the ripeness of it may have turned. — Ched (talk) 19:12, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support on the grounds this thread is way too long; it's becoming hard to reply to. The parties involved need to be separated. I prefer JzG's proposal, but would support Guy M's proposal of having some editor/admin create a draft userspace ArbCom proposal on which we could comment Doug Mehus T·C 19:52, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support taking to Arbcom. This has degenerated into both sides getting into escalating beligerance, and multiple attempts by the community have failed to resolve it. There's very poor behaviour on both sides that needs to be examined. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:19, 10 November 2019 (UTC) (moved from above. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:15, 10 November 2019 (UTC))
  • Oppose Per Guy's argument above, and per there still being reason to think a community solution would work. There's a huge amount of history and context here. Lets not take up the Arbs time & energy on this until we've at least tried a simple iban. FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:48, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support - the monumental list of portal discussions above is somewhat damming - obviously a couple were on the underlying thoughts but a number are about how the dispute has been waged and we've not resolved the problem yet. Pending ARBCOM making superceding temporary injunctions, I do still think that a 2-way IBAN and temporary TBANs for both parties to avoid first-mover advantage from the IBAN. Nosebagbear (talk) 22:00, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support sending to ArbCom, but I will note that an extended discussion of portals that began on 1 March 2019 was closed on 11 April 2019 with no consensus except for the view of many editors that the community was too divided to resolve the matter and that it should be sent to ArbCom. A case request was filed to send the issue to ArbCom, and it was declined. I said at the time that the idea that the community was a few weeks away from resolving the issue was too optimistic. The community did not resolve portal issues within a few weeks or a few months. I still think that this will have to be resolved by ArbCom, because I don't have the faith that ArbCom had in April that the community would be able to resolve the matter. But that is only my opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:27, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support This seems very like the infobox issue which was likewise intractable and so had to be referred to arbcom. Andrew D. (talk) 23:43, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support, as I have noted above. I think that we need to be clear, however, that there are two distinct controversies here. One is the establishment of some rules for addressing the status of content in portal space in an orderly manner. The other is the specific behaviors, actions, and accusations that have welled up recently with respect to portals. bd2412 T 00:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support although I think we should give it a few more days and see if the original proposal gain consensus. I imagine a case will take at least that long to develop anyway. If any of the original proposals gain consensus, the editor's primarily involved can consider whether they will need to take this to arbcom or whether to give it another chance with the implementation of the communities decisions. Nil Einne (talk) 02:32, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support Conduct issues make resolving this dispute hard if not impossible. The factionalism makes any community-originated sanctions unlikely. Clearly an intractable dispute that needs a structured discussion to resolve. Wug·a·po·des​ 02:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support taking this to ArbCom. The issues involved have been intractable for many months and the community has been unable to reach a resolution to poor behavior by some or the issue of swarms of clearly worthless portals still in existence that some want kept for unexplainable reasons other then WP:ILIKEIT. Newshunter12 (talk) 03:22, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support After BHG's reprehensible conduct in this discussion, I see no other option. Vermont (talk) 04:22, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support as proponent, and because there is evidence of behavioral problems in this area that the community has not been able to resolve. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:01, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support It seems the ongoing issues cannot be resolved at the community level and the community has made concerted efforts to resolve over many months. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 07:54, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support This has been going on for far too long, and the community has not been able to resolve it. SportingFlyer T·C 10:56, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support - Seeing that the community has made some unsuccessful attempts to resolve the situation, maybe an WP:RFAR is in the works as well. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 11:11, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Before !voting further, editors should look at the last 20 closed MfDs of portals (Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Archived debates). The standard of analysis is as good, or higher imho, than AfD (and I have plenty of AfD experience). The admins closing these portal MfDs are some of the most experienced/active uninvolved closers in WP and include: Scottywong, JJMC89, Killiondude, Jo-Jo Eumerus, and many many more. Rarely do you ever see these closers criticize the standard/quality of the arguments around portals, and at least, it is evident that a lot of hard work has been done at MfD to clean up the mess – and it is a mess. Just look at the MfD of Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Alaska, where the MfD is a long thread over an abandoned portal that is a link to the Main Article Alaska, and an article on a polar bear, and on a sea-lion, neither of which are relevant/notable enough to Alaska to be in Main Article Alaska; same with lighthouses. While the community has decided not to unilaterally delete all portals, a lot of editors have toiled away for years now, respecting this decision and addressing portals one-by-one in good-quality arguments that in almost all cases, result in a deletion by a wide range of experienced + uninvolved administrators. Some of the comments above (I am not going to name them), I find unworthy to these editors (of which lately, I include myself), who have given their time to this process. Therefore, unless the community is going to change its mind on portals (which I doubt, and ArbCom is not going to intervene on content), this process will continue. I am not going to opine on the BHG/NA1K interactions, which I do find very unpleasant and increasingly unnecessary, however, as I have said to both BHG and NA1K – two of the most productive and valuable editors in WP – if we declared a moratorium on Portal deletions for 5-years, that wouldn't change the fact that the vast majority of them (e.g. +80-90%) are going to collapse of their own accord anyway. Whatever purpose they served 10 years ago, they are now functionally obsolete to Main Article+Navboxes on one side, and WikiProject Directory on the other side. There are many examples of portals where the Main Article is indefinitely protected due to extensive vandalism (e.g. Alaska, Mesopotamia), but the portal requires no protection, as the vandals have given up on it. It would be such a shame to lose one or both of the best contributors in WP over a tool that is already far down the highway of obsolesce, and in almost all cases, will not be coming back. Britishfinance (talk) 13:27, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
It means nothing that a group of very adept closing Admins did not comment on unacceptable behavior in their close. Behavior issues are addressed at the proper venues after proper complaints have been made. Authentically, kudos are in order for these closers and their skill.
Regarding arbcom - I've ivoted "support" for Arbocom intervention. I'm going by what I see in this ANI and at a recent MFD. I have to find the link for that MFD again. BHG has engaged in the same personal attacks over, over, and over again - and these are only two discussions, albeit long discussions. I am an uninvolved editor. I have not participated in any RFCs or MFDs related to any portals.
What I am seeing is BHG creating a hostile atmosphere that is anathema to the collegial type editing that Wikipedia strives for. Losing a major contributor, or more than one, is not a sound argument for giving a pass on disruptive behavior. One of the problems is, BHG's attacks overshadow issues they are trying to point out about the behavior of one or more other editors. And, as has been shown, BHG's attacks have occured in other discussions, for which links are provided in the previous section. Also, if there is ongoing factionalism in these Portal RFCs and MFDs, then that needs to be addressed as well. Steve Quinn (talk) 16:10, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
@Steve Quinn: This is more of a tit for tat behavior. And even if BHG is guilty of any misconduct at all, the fact remains that NA1k's conduct has been no better, as has been proven multiple times. ToThAc (talk) 18:50, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
This is gaslighting. Misconduct by one editor does not justify gross, repeated, shameless misconduct by another editor. It's nothing to do about whether BHG is justified and has everything to do about the sort of hostile environment this creates.--WaltCip (talk) 19:53, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
@WaltCip: You do have a point about potential gaslighting, so it might be better to just cite a good example.
I just now learned that there was in fact a fairly broad consensus to eliminate the subpage-based listing of portal content in favor of lead-section transclusions in a community proposal that even BHG herself supported. But even though that partially nullifies the argument that NA1k's implementation of this consensus was "sneaky", potentially unintentional gaslighters (such as myself) still appear to have the argument of NA1k repeatedly failing to justify said proposal as the basis for their actions (hence BHG's reversions were based on misunderstandings she would only just now be aware of) and implementing things clearly outside of the established consensus (such as failing to disclose why they selected the content they added to portals).
In my unbiased conclusion, I believe this is a case where one editor is creating a fait accompli whether it was their intention or not (NA1k), while the other is assuming no clue (BHG). @NA1k: I don't wish to be biased in any way, so would you care to comment on my analysis of your behavior? I'm all ears. @BHG: did NA1k ever cite the consensus here as justification for his actions a month ago? (Feel free to answer this as well, NA1k.) ToThAc (talk) 20:22, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
@ToThAc: I am not aware of any instance where NA1K cited Wikipedia talk:Portal/Guidelines/Archive 6#Portals are moribund as a reason for their actions.
I have just read through that discussion for a second time, and I don't see any consensus emerging from it, let alone a formal closure. A lot of ideas were discussed, but I don't see any consensus being reached. I am astonished by the suggestion that I supported there any proposal for how to structure portals; my one comment in that discussion (timestamp 14:32, 29 March 2017) was to support a purge and consolidation. I did not comment on structure.
In the course of other discussions in 2019, I have supported the move towards excerpt transclusion to replace the content-forked subpages which are maintenance failure a vulnerability. I have not endorsed doing so as a "black box" model without any visible, linked list of selected articles. The best model I have seen so far is Portal:Wind power, which displays a list on the face of the page. I am not thrilled with its layout, but the transparency is there to facilitate scrutiny, and improve usability for readers who don't want the excerpts.
But this mining of two year-old discussions seems to me to a big diversion. NA1K set out to do a massive restructuring of dozens of portals. NA1K didn't cite any prior consensus for doing so. NA1K didn't post anywhere to explain their plan. NA1K didn't seek any input on whether their preferred method was actually supported, let alone specifically seek support on it. NA1K didn't notify any WikiProjects or any other stakeholders. This was a unilateral WP:FAITACCOMPLI.
In 2019, NA1K has been a prolific participant in discussions at WT:WPPORT. They commented there on many issues, and started lots of threads, so it is very hard to see any good faith explanation of why they chose not to even notify the project of what was clearly a plan for widespread restructuring, let alone seek consensus that it was a god idea both in principle and in detail. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:00, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • edit conflict I've updated several portals before without disclosing or needing to disclose as to why I added specific articles, though I almost always add featured content. There's not enough editors updating these to have a substantive discussion about what to include, and portals have shifted away from being a quasi-magazine to now being more of a navigational structure for quality content. Portals are currently the wild west, there's no style guide for how to improve them, and that's one of the biggest reasons why we're here - apparently any edit NA1k makes can be reverted for going "against consensus" because there is no consensus, but NA1k has made a number of constructive edits and it's tough from me as an outside party to see exactly which rules they've been breaking when no rules really exist in the first place. I've worked constructively with NA1k to bring a couple portals up to speed, including on some of these portals where the changes "weren't discussed" and the edits were constructive. NA1k to justify all their portal edits isn't required anywhere, and the fact we're discussing it at all demonstrates the battleground which we overlook. SportingFlyer T·C 21:09, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
edit conflict Why does anyone believe this one editor need anyones ok to edit theses pages? As the editor even posted what was going most of the time as seen here. This has not happened as much to other why this admin -because someone thinks there an idiot is not a valid reason? --Moxy 🍁 21:12, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Moxy, you are getting to one of the core issues of portals - there are no regulations/rules around portals (unlike Main Articles which have full PAG). Mass-update of portals to give an artificial illusion of activity and maintainence is not what I think is meant to happen. When BHG has tried to engage with NA1K on a portal-by-portal basis (as only she could do), the mass-update approach breaks down? Beeblebrox's comments about The Portal Rescue Crew on Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Alaska are this very issue. Abandoned, artificially supported portals, give the impression to potential Alaska focused editors, that WP is a failing project. Why do this to ourselves? Britishfinance (talk) 21:58, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Not correct in fact we have had a few portals do very well in updates when Brown is not around - when brown is around they revert any changes by multiple editors. (i.e as seen here )with walls of text not related to the portal at hand Portal talk:Australia. We here at wikipedia follow editor discretion and use Wikipedia:Portal#Features of portals for guidance.--Moxy 🍁 00:19, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Moxy that diff you posted is to NA1K's sandbox. It is utterly bizarre that you seem to think that an edit to a personal sandbox is some sort of notification to other editors. (I don't sniff around other editors sandboxes, and visit them only when asked or when they appear in cleanup categories). Your diff has the opposite impact to what you intended: the fact that NA1K created such a list but apparently chose to post only in their own sandbox looks to me like evidence of an intent to be sneaky about the scale of changes they were making.
As to this has not happened as much to other editors ... that's simply because no other editor has done anything anywhere close to NA1K's mass restructuring of portals. I spotted it a whiff of it one day when I was looking at the relatedChanges to Category:All portals, and then looked at NA1K's portalspace contribs. That was when I noticed the scale of what was happening, and started the examination which led me to begin reverting. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:26, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Its very concerning that your not reading what is posted by others as the chart in the sandbox has already been presented to the community at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1020#Portal updates reverted.--Moxy 🍁 00:06, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
@Moxy: its very concerning that you choose to me berate for responding to what you actually wrote, and to falsely accuse me of not reading. The only not reading in this exchange is your failure to read your own words before attacking me.
You posted a link to a sandbox, and that is what I commented on.
Now you say it was also posted at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1020#Portal updates reverted ... but you don't seem to notice that was that thread was posted in response to my reverts (which you definitely should have noticed, because you started the thread[67] about those reverts). So what you have unintentionally achieved is to reinforce my point that NA1K did not advertise their mass takeover of portals while it was underway, and instead advertised it only after the fact.
This is yet another example of why I have said several times in other ways that you are a repeatedly disruptive factor in discussions, because you do not demonstrate remotely effective communication skills. Instead, you start exchanges like this in which you generate a lot of heat and give a strong impression of having little or no regard either for either the facts which you assert or for their significance. The repeated need to counter your streams of false and/or misplaced assertions wastes the time of other editors and drains their patience ... and then you hypocritically complain that the responses which debunk your nonsense are walls of text. I don't believe that you are consciously or intentionally trolling, but conduct like this is a technique used strategically by some clever trolls who so understand how disruptive it is. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:35, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Yet again your trying to stop progress on a point you keep raising Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) #Use of direct transclusion in portals and the newer portal transclusion templates.--Moxy 🍁 12:52, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support For BHG being held accountable. My proposal below was not allowed on ANI space and it contained why BHG should be desysop. At Arbcom, other experienced users can have a closer look at the reasons. It would also bring a possible resolution to this discussion. AmericanAir88(talk) 20:32, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Further comment to my Oppose (above). As I said above, I think the process of portal MfDs will go on; however, unfortunately, I don't think ArbCom is going to add anything useful in that regard. Most of the major portal RfCs were split affairs, and any real consensus, outside of small RfCs which are not really meaningful (often for good reasons), was not forthcoming. RfCs carried out in the heat of this ANI will probably even be more detrimental to the longer-term resolution of the portal mess; untimately, the functional obselence of the vast majority of portals (per above), will see their own rapid deterioration continue at pace. Somebody in 10 years time, will delete most of the portals in WP (but not all), and nobody will probably care.
However, the specific issue of BHG/NA1K interactions are undoubtably very problematical. I understand the basic argument of BHG's first problem with NA1K, in that his mass-updates across many portals is not how portals are meant to work (e.g. meant to have proper topic-interested maintainers/enthusiasts), and NA1K's actions are artificially extending the time-scale of their demise (like TTH did in 2016). While I agree with BHG on her technical point, her language to NA1K is not acceptable and way off base, no question.
However, BHG also accuses NA1K of further behaviour (which she describes as "sneeky" or being a "liar"), around the technical way in which he has attempted mass-updates that mekes them hard for anybody but proficient editors like BHG to undo or spot. I don't understand this argument. If BHG is correct, then it is a different issue, and one could argue that BHG that been driven "off the cliff" (because her language is "off the cliff" in my, and I think most editors view, regardless of their view on portals), by NA1K.
Ultimately, we would either need a targeted ArbCom to look at this issue (either BHG is unacceptably/unfairly bullying NA1K, or NA1K has been doing things that he should not have been doing), OR, we get some uninvolved senior admin who understands the technical detail of portals (but is not a portal enthusiast, understandably), and what NHG is accusing NA1K of (e.g. somone like Scottywong). Anything else will be a mess in my view, and will produce no useful outcome to the project, and a huge loss of editing-power from one or both of the most productive editors on the project. We owe editors like NA1K and BHG more targeted and considered analysis, imho. Britishfinance (talk) 21:14, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
I notice Scottywong has kind of started this at User talk:BrownHairedGirl#Help me understand. Britishfinance (talk) 22:55, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Does this really need a consensus here? Can't someone just open one if they think it has reached the level of needing Arb involvement. AIRcorn (talk) 06:35, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
    Yes, they can, but a case will have more clout if it shown that there is a strong consensus among editors that other methods of resolution have failed. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose Arbcom will not and cannot investigate the underlying issues regarding portals. All Arbcom can do is count how many bad words have been used by each participant and urge the community to hold a discussion. Rather than wringing our hands over the fact that BHG has made certain accusations, an investigation of the issues should occur. Has anyone asked BHG what she is getting at? Has any response been analyzed? Johnuniq (talk) 07:08, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
    • @Johnuniq: "Has anyone asked BHG what she is getting at? Has any response been analyzed" Last time this was brought to ANI, less than a month ago, I tried to mediate a discussion on how to move forward at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1020#Talking it out. Specifically asking how they both "think we can move forward from this and de-escalate" and "What is it you both want to see happen?". As you can see from that discussion and this one, it was not a successful strategy. Wug·a·po·des​ 22:32, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support. BHG has made an almost record number of unsubstantiated personal attacks without any admin doing their job and blocking them (As far as I can see from the above mess, the 'death by section overload' tactic seems to be well in hand here). A normal editor or IP who repeatedly called someone else stupid (and don't think snide references to dunning-kruger make you seem more clever) would have been blocked for significant periods of time by now. Neither has any editor or admin seen fit to enforce WP:NPA which allows anyone to remove personal attacks. So if no one is going to do anything, send it to Arbcom so they can put their official stamp of approval on BHGs bad behaviour. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:33, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support. User BHG's sustained attacks are unacceptable at this point. Many users have tried to negotiate, but to no avail. It usually ends with user BHG claiming their bullying is WP:Spade and then the insults get extended to the negotiating party until they give up and duck out. Several solutions have been proposed, most along the lines of "let us punish both sides equally", as some kind of ill-fitted compromise. Which of course is ridiculous. You don't punish both bully and victim because you are annoyed by the ruckus. I get it, nobody wants to read the tens of thousands of words that come along with portal discussions. Let ArbCom handle it then. --Hecato (talk) 10:31, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support. The name-calling, personal attacks and failure to assume good faith have been going on for a very long time without any admin stopping them, so Arbcom is the only resource left to us. I agree with the comments above that this isn't a case of "a plague on both your houses" but a situation where there is a clear bully and a clear victim. On the underlying content issue I would lean towards the position taken by the bully, but that doesn't excuse such behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Agree with Phil Bridger; Support. If the community is actually able to express some consensus on this, then yes, perhaps ARBCOM can help somewhat. Sm8900 (talk) 21:40, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Conditional support: I just want to be completely clear here: I'm supporting this action only if it questions the general individualized civility of everyone participating in portal deletion discussions (myself included) as was established in this ARBCOM case, though since I wholeheartedly feel that BHG's actions aren't the only root in this conflict, I can't find myself supporting otherwise. ToThAc (talk) 23:12, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
    • Indeed BHG is not the only bad actor in this dispute - there are multiple editors, not all on the same side, who need removing from the topic area for bad behaviour. BHG is simply the worst individual participant. Thryduulf (talk) 01:29, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
      • Absolutely, there's multiple editors with major poor behaviour, and quite a few with a bit - on both sides. Nosebagbear (talk) 11:48, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support sending to arbcom to address the behaviour and conduct of all involved parties. Arbcom will not and should not address the content issue (which is what portals in and of themselves are). Both BHG and NA1K are utterly incapable of interacting civilly with one another to the point where both of them are demonstrating behaviour that will make people question whether they should keep their sysop rights, and an interaction ban in the meantime would also be sensible. Fish+Karate 16:35, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
    Could you provide some diffs that highlight incivility from NA1K? Lepricavark (talk) 18:55, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • STRONG SUPPORT. (2nd bolded comment by this user.) Sometimes, the real value of an Arbcom case, is simply to get Arbcom involved, so that they can tell everyone, "play nicely," and then intervene after that for notable examples of contentious behavior., in this case, that is a lot of what we need. Sm8900 (talk) 16:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support As well as reading (all of) the current discussion I have looked back at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1010#User:Buaidh (as I recall my only portal participation) and I have browsed the discussion leading up to the latter. Even restricting to these situations, I am very concerned about some very poor editor behaviour and it is important something is done. If the community cannot agree on a satisfactory (or any) action to improve things, the matter of editor conduct should be referred to Arbcom. It is important the community or Arbcom takes action on matters of conduct such as have been shown here. Thincat (talk) 19:35, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support because, in addition to what other editors have said, it takes way too long to scroll past this massive wall of text. WMSR (talk) 00:26, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support if and only if the case is initiated after ArbCom elections: I will support this, but only after a new ArbCom has been elected and seated. Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 02:23, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
    • @Javert2113: Why do you think this needs to wait until after the elections? Why do you oppose the current committee handling it? Thryduulf (talk) 10:25, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
  • @Thryduulf: I have three major reasons. First, the Committee, as you may note, has already declined to accept a case on this very matter back in March; at the time, this was a question of ripeness, but it does cast a shadow on this iteration of the Committee accepting the case anew. Second, well, many of the Committee's decisions this year, for lack of better descriptors, have courted significant controversy: and, believe it or not, I'd rather this case not be taken by the Committee this year. Finally, given how close we are to Arbitration Committee elections, it would be prudent to hold off until the new Committee is seated: fresh eyes, new ideas, and all. Anyway, I hope that satisfies your curiosity. Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 11:29, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Considering that the decisions which generated "significant controversy" concerned some of the most difficult and divisive cases that have ever been faced in the history of the Committee (Fram and Antisemitism in Poland), controversy would have been inevitable no matter which way the cases were closed. Why not just come out and say how you truly feel, which is that you believe the current Committee is incompetent.--WaltCip (talk) 14:10, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support an ArbCom case to examine the conduct of everyone involved. It is definitely true that ArbCom cannot resolve the underlying issue, but part of the reason things have gotten to this point is a broad breakdown of WP:AGF and aggressive WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior on the part of several people involved in the dispute. I think a lot of problems are obvious just by skimming this page, but we need to lay all the accusations and counter-accusations to rest at some point, and at this point the finality of an ArbCom case examining all of them seems like the only way to accomplish that. --Aquillion (talk) 19:08, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Abolish Portals, please (closed)[edit]

I am going to cose this one as well, the discussion is stale for 24h, I do not see anything close to consensus to abolish portals, and whoever wants to follow up with other issues, they can be taken to the above sections--Ymblanter (talk) 07:46, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

If only the community would've followed through at Village Pump & chosen to abolish all portals :( GoodDay (talk) 19:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

This isn't helpful, we have already had two lengthy discussions with a clear community consensus not to abolish all of the portals. At this point its a WP:DEADHORSE. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:32, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
GoodDay, I like the idea of Portals, so wouldn't support such a proposal. In fact, see above, where I've argued for featuring the portals more prominently on the homepage instead of useless (in my view) FAs and DYKs. ;) Doug Mehus T·C 19:42, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Best to abolish them, as they're more a negative asset, then a positive. I've never seen the value of portals, on Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 19:45, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
At this point, such proposals are in WP:DROPTHESTICK territory. bd2412 T 19:55, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Exactly.... nobody at the moment wants another lengthy debate on the matter. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:56, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Agree not the time but also agree they don't work as we though they it because of lack of accessibility due to mobile view limitations or the labour intensity of the old style portals making them outdated. If a few are to stick around I belive Portal:Canada can server as an example of what a portal can provide....being a showcase for featured and vital content while providing a navigation aid (cotents) and introduction to the backside of Wikipedia by way of project introduction - Wikipedia:Portal#Purposes of portals.--Moxy 🍁 20:01, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

The problem with portals is that their very low utility and very low readership means that most of them have been rationally abandoned by the more skilled editors who might have built them into something which adds a little more value. For similar reasons, they have also been abandoned by most active WikiProjects.

As a result, most (tho not all) portals have become the playground of

  • those who like creating Rube Goldberg machines: vast forests of templates, Lua modules and sub-pages just to display an excerpt which is only marginally better than the excerpts built into the Wikimedia software. Most portals are basically just an absurdly baroque wrapper round a short list of articles which could be displayed in a few lines of [[Article1]] * [[Article2]] etc
  • very low-competence editors such as Moxy and esp NA1K. NA1K charges around a vast range of topic areas in which they have no demonstrable expertise or skill, making lists without clear criteria which would enable other editors to examine why those articles have been chosen over others. NA!K's competence levels are so abysmally low that they are either unable or unwilling even to acknowledge that there is a serious problem in their choice to crate a list of massive bias even on the broad topic of transport, where they populated the portal with a list where of 50% of the geographically-tied articles relate to their own country.

Even in that extreme case, when NA1K was challenged about it, they failed to do what any honest and competent editor would do: promptly acknowledge that they had screwed up really badly, and that some wholly different approach was needed.

Most of the antagonism over portals derives from their collapse into this status of a playground for the incompetent, who bitterly resent being challenged about the abysmal quality of what they create with their low skills, and are frightened that their playground is shrinking.

This structural problem could be resolved either by deleting all portals, or by the wider community making a much firmer grip of how portals should be designed and built. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:12, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

  • Propose immediate block for yet another personal attack by BrownHairedGirl against NA1k and Moxy, just above. I'm too involved in the portal dispute to do it myself, but I can't understand how this harassment and bullying has been tolerated for so long, and BHG now continues to attack and bully other editors in a thread started because she has been bullying and harassing other editors. Is the WMF right and we are a pro-bullying pro-harassment website that can't get its house in order? Even if BHG were right about portals, I can't see any excuse for this anymore. —Kusma (t·c) 20:21, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
This is the problem we keep running administrator not willing to engage others with any respect.--Moxy 🍁 20:30, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Moxy, I show great respect to editors who try to work in good faith within their skill zone. Those like you who repeatedly demonstrate bad faith and refuse to recognise your own imitations get less respect from me.
As one example, it's only a few days since you engaged in sustained bullying of me at MFD:Portal:Lighthouses because I refused to accede to your repeated insistence that I should abuse tools such as AWB in pursuit of your desire to circumvent long-stranding aspects of interface design. You were especially outraged that I insisted that I would have no part of that unless there was a clear community consensus to do so.
I do not express respect for an editor engaging in that sort of bullying and contempt for consensus ... and I have no respect at all for your blatant hypocrisy in behaving like that and then calling me all sorts of names . --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:51, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
(ec) Not sure what your linking to when it comes to a personal attack on you at that page. But it is odd that after that talk you changed some inline-portal templates limiting accessibility for 50 percent of our readers. You can see how time and time again many are not convinced your edits related to portals are made with our readers in mind and has lead to numerous complaints about edits and behavior.--Moxy 🍁 21:36, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
@Moxy: if you had genuine concerns and wanted to know why, you could simply have come to my talk page and asked why I changed some inline-portal templates. But sine you chose to make a drama of it here, this is the answer.
My AWB setup for updating portal links after deletions does not change the portal template in use. In most cases, this works fine, but in cases where {{portal-inline}} has been used there is a problem when one portal links is replaced with two, because {{portal-inline}} takes only one portal as parameter. I usually let my AWB job do the replacement, and then cleanup the errors.
After the deletion of Portal:Indian classical music, its links needed to be replaced with links to Portal:India and Portal:Music. I used a different methodology, and manually handled those cases of {{portal-inline}}. AFAICR, I used a variety of approaches depending on context, and in some of those cases, such as [68], I used other portal templates which take more than one parameter. It depended on what seemed to be the neatest and easiest solution. In that case {{Portal bar}} seemed both easiest and neatest.
If Moxy or any other editor wants to deprecate any portal template such as {{Portal bar}}, then they are free to bring it to TFD. Meanwhile, I used a valid portal template to resolve a problem caused by {{Portal-inline}}, to ensure that links were displayed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:46, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Even a moron like me would have simply used a second inline template to not hide the portal to 50 percent of our readers. Again think what is best for our readers.--Moxy 🍁 21:17, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Moxy, that would be your choice. I chose not increase vertical bulk, and instead to reduce it by displaying the portal links prominently in a {{Portal bar}} in (AFAICR) about 5 or 10 cases.
You have a particular personal obsession with using only {{Portal-inline}}, for reasons which you believe are important. I weighed the benefits differently. As I noted above, if you want the community to deprecate any portal template such as {{Portal bar}}, then open a TFD and seek consensus for your view. But, unless and until there is consensus to do so, {{portal bar}} remains a valid alternative, used on 74337 pages. So back off your bullying. This is just a continuation of your personal attacks on me on at MFD:Portal:Lighthouses, where you demanded that I use AWB to make changes to implement your personal preference. WP:RFC is thataway. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:59, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
This could be what the main problem is (understanding of others intent) ...was no demand nor any attack on you at that for portalbar ..that is a good choice and is one of the temples we got fixed to work in mobile view. But that was not what my example was.--Moxy 🍁 00:29, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
BrownHairedGirl, if you truly believe that NA1k and Mo on you to do anythinxy. perhaps its a cominication are too incompetent to edit here, you should either start attempts to ban them (I guess you know where to find the ArbCom), or you should rejoice that they spend so much time on niche low-viewership things like portals instead of in places where they could do more serious damage. It is quite difficult to disrupt the encyclopaedia using portals (again, pageviews and number of editors involved are not huge), but you have succeeded many times to blow the issue up to epic proportions by focusing on contributors instead of content. Bullying is bad and the ends do not justify the means. —Kusma (t·c) 21:06, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
@Kusma: I recoil at the bureaucracy of an ArbCom case. Months of diff-farming does my head in. After The Troubles case ~12 years ago, I vowed never again if I could avoid it. And my experience of ANI is that is good at simple, immediate issues, but very poor at handling cases involving prolonged issues with several people, esp if the miscreants have a vocal fan club. (Part of the flaw is structural: non-admins get equal voice in the decision-making, so its not really an admin board).
So I hoped that progress could still be made without bans, by enough outside editors getting involved to outweigh the vocal-but-incompetents. Most of the time this has worked well, but every now and then it all flares up, as it has just done over transport, or as Moxy tried to do with P:Lighthouses.
If you actually look across the range of MFDs, you can see that I have tried v hard to focus on content. I spend a lot of time researching and writing detailed researched, rationales (to the portal crew has denounced me for that: it's "intimidation", they said, because they prefer ilikeit debates).
The problems arise when the likes of NA1K arrive and post nonsense. Moxy mostly just posts garbled hot air, but NA1K specialisses in truthiness: well-written nonsense which is structured like reason, but littered with non-sequiturs and falsehoods and half-truth. A debate/discusison format is ill-equipped to deal with sustained half-truths like that, so things can kick off as NA1K responds with verbose scattergun nonsnense. You can see an example of it further up this page, where NA1K accused me of doing "exactly the same thing" as they dis, even tho I had done the exact opposite. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:36, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Kusma: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia.
We are here to build that enyclopedia.
Building an encyclopedia requires skills.
Editors who lack the skills to contribute effectively in a given area are expected to have the self-awareness to recognise their limitations and find other way of contributing. Failure to do so is disruptive.
Massive disruption has been caused, and is being caused on an ongoing basis, by the failure of those editors to work within the limits of their own competence.
There is now a persistent problem that those who challenge this disruption caused by this incompetence are accused of all sorts of wickdeness for pointing to the emperor's nakedness.
If the solution is to silence the critics, then the problem will not be resolved. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:38, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
BrownHairedGirl, That's true...I do agree with this, "Massive disruption has been caused, and is being caused on an ongoing basis, by the failure of those editors to work within the limits of their own competence." I try and limit my editing to Canadian politics, corporations, and North American radio and television stations. I wonder if part of the problem may be the country-specific WikiProjects whereby editor-members are editing, on a mass scale, on topics which they have little knowledge but are colocated based on their being in the same country? Perhaps we need a re-think of WikiProjects such that we eliminate country- and geographic-specific WikiProjects? Doug Mehus T·C 20:58, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
It's not just country-specific portals that are the problem—it's just that you're seeing those because they're the ones that are potentially viable and have consequently survived deletion. TTH's portal-creation script was based on search terms and was very scattergun, and we ended up with things like Jannie de Beer in Portal:Alcoholic drinks. (I have no idea if that was a real example or not—that's just one I made up to illustrate the issue—but anyone who was there can confirm that I'm not being unfair.) ‑ Iridescent 21:14, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Iridescent, True, and I don't disagree with you. I didn't realize editors were creating portals via script. I assumed most were created manually. Excuse my Pollyanna syndrome. What I meant was the WikiProjects (not Portals) contributing to the perceived, if not real, problem of editors editing beyond their topical competence. The Canada Portal is a good example of a portal (but so was the now-deleted Star Trek one). The real problem, I think, is the country WikiProjects (i.e., WikiProject Canada; WikiProject United States of America, etc.). Doug Mehus T·C 21:21, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Dmehus, the main problem with country WikiProjects is that they tend to be too large to have much coherence. I don't quite see how WikiProjects cause people to edit outside of their competence. Most people tend to edit topics they are interested in, and from my own experience trying to cheerlead the Germany project I can tell you it is rather hard to find people who will help with some "important" topic that they don't enjoy editing. YMMV of course. Anyway, this is off-topic and might be better at the idea lab. —Kusma (t·c) 21:34, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
In 2018, a script was used to assist in creating portals, all or almost all of which have been deleted. The script has been blanked and the templates which it used have been deleted. Certes (talk) 21:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
(ec) Thanks, Dmehus. I try to limit my editing in similar ways. My topics are politics and modern history in Ireland and the UK.
However, this has almost nothing to do with WikiProjects, which have largely abandoned portals. Most Wikiprojects as less tha active, but insofar as they are still functioning, WikiProjects do prvide a forum for steering editors away from damage.
This is about portals, where NA1K in particular has charged in and rebuilt many dozens of portals on a vast range of topics. At one stage they had even listed themself as the "maintainer" of over 42 portals, including Ghana, Free software, Guatemala, Biochemistry, Money, Djiboti, Tanks, Moldova. After repeated criticism, they removed themself as maintainer, but went on to sneakily rebuild dozens more portals on topics where they have with no demonstrable expertise. Every one of those which I have examined in detail was very poor quality work.
This is the Dunning–Kruger effect on steroids. NA1K has some bizarre delusion that the have some magic skill which gives them expertise in all these diverse topics, and doesn't learn to change course when the evidence is set out that they have screwed up yet again. Part of the reason this continues is the portal fan club, in which low-skill editors are dominant. None of them as severely deluded as NA1K, but they cheer on NA1K against what they say are the bad nasty people who "bully" NA1K by challenging the failings. So NA1K continues in a bubble. It's a dystopian group version of Randy in Boise, with lots of Randys. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:41, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
As one of the low-skilled editors who continue to cheer portals, this was probably my favourite diff from the recent discussion on Portal talk:Australia. And I love the argument you need "expertise" in a topic to improve a portal, or, indeed, anything on the encyclopaedia. With some simple researching skills, I've added citations to many topics I've never heard of before, and portals should be even easier to update if there's an associated WikiProject. Requiring "expertise" has never been a rule anywhere on Wikipedia, and is just another example of how BHG continually moves the goalposts on portal-related discussions to ensure no progress ever happens. SportingFlyer T·C 10:54, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
So far as I could see then, and so far as I can see now, SF was the only Australian editor still participating in those discussions. The others were portal regulars. So I asked for notification to WP:WikiProject Australia, because This talk page is dominated by editors without connection to Australia, rather than by those with demonstrable expertise in the topic.
I note SF's derision at the notion that anyone needs any expertise in a topic to select a list of significant articles in that field. It's a very disappointing attitude, which I have never seen outside portal-space. Sure, anyone can research a particular point of detail, but selecting a representative set to give an overview clearly does require prior knowledge. Why on earth not ask?
I also note SF's claim that asking for notifications is moving the goalposts. On the contrary, a courtesy notification to parties who work on the relevant issues is common good practice across Wikipedia. SF's indignation only reinforces my point that portalspace has normalised poor practice. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm sorry you find my attitude disappointing. It's not at all difficult to become competent in a topic, I'd say it's even a requirement to be able to WP:HEY an article at AfD (which is not at all difficult.) Also, it's not as if I'm looking at NA1k's contributions to the Australian portal and going "tut, tut, if only they were an Aussie they would have picked better content to feature." Requiring only Australians to edit the Australia portal makes no sense at all, especially given none of the articles added were close to being controversial. Furthermore, how is it not moving the goalposts? There's not a single rule anywhere on Wikipedia which requires competency before someone can edit an article, and especially not from good-faith editors. SportingFlyer T·C 04:28, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
@SportingFlyer, please do re-read what I wrote,[69] and take care not misrepresent me. My comment there is only two sentences long, so it shouldn't be confusing.
I did not suggest requiring only Australians to edit the Australia portal.
I did ask that Australian editors be notified. This was to give them opportunity to comment if they wanted to.
Your indignation is is based on you attributing to me something which I neither stated nor implied. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:32, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment - I am just stating that any consensus here isn't going to override community consensus per WP:CONLEVEL. I would recommend it be taken to the WP:PUMP. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:06, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
    • We've been to the PUMP about this, multiple times and recently. It's completely ineffective for this, because the people who want to keep Portals refuse to even consider changing process at all. Instead, any attempt to even propose guidelines for portals is met with accusations of "backdoor deletionism" and the whole thing grinds down to No Consensus. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 16:19, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
      • Well in my humble opinion, well constructed portals are doing their jobs by getting the views. If proposals are made they have to be careful to not lump all portals into the same category. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:49, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
    I don't see a lack of willingness to change, but an overly narrow focus by both those who support portals and those who do not. There has been very little attempt to engage editors interested in the various candidate topic areas. Without support from the editors interested in a given topic, there is no chance of long-term viability for a portal on that topic. (I get why it's scary to engage: the vast majority of areas have shown no interest in portals. But there's no point in creating a portal in an area that you're not actively interested in supporting and pushing it onto a group of editors who aren't interested in the portal.) On the other hand, portal detractors seem to think it's necessary to bring up their points repeatedly because they're not being heard. But brainstorming ideas is a messy business, and people are going to discuss avenues even if you think they're going down unproductive paths based on faulty evidence. People can be wrong in discussions, and that's OK: they need the freedom to slip up to allow new ideas to bubble to the surface. isaacl (talk) 18:36, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment - BHG, there is NO excuse for the continued name-calling. I don't care if the other editor is Hitler reincarnated. Stop the personal attacks. Now. This shouldn't even be up for debate. It's one of the five pillars. Be civil or leave. (talk) 06:41, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal: Desysop BrownHairedGirl (closed)[edit]

Not going anywhere and can not go anywhere. The place to request the desysop is Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case--Ymblanter (talk) 22:03, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am not an admin and I know I do not have much say, but I am initiating this proposal. User:Toa Nidhiki05 said that other options need to be explored and I believe this to be a possible option to end the dispute. I propose we desysop BrownHairedGirl for the reasons below. No blocking or topic banning needed, just one proposal. I want to be as polite as possible. BHG, it is not personal and I do not want to argue, this is just a proposal based on previous evidence. AmericanAir88(talk) 18:53, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Reasons for Desysop of BrownHairedGirl
1. Harassment. Plenty of evidence is prominent through diffs and this discussion. Targets other users. This violates WP:ADMINCOND and is against Wikipedia policy through the pilars.
2. Violation of WP:ADMINACCT. BHG does not reason properly as she erupts into poor judgement and accusations. She breaches multiple policies
3. Reverting and edit warring. Violation of WP:TOOLMISUSE by reverting other admin's edits. She reverts other users edits without consensus and does not consider WP:ALTREV and WP:ROWN.
4. Not a role model for non-admins. Administrators are meant to be examples of Wikipedias who excel in the pilars and understand all policies. They are meant to cooperate and help build an encyclopedia. BHG being able to commit activities I mention above is not what an Admin stands for or what ANY Wikipedian should be doing.
  • Feel free to chime in at WP:DESYSOP2019 though. Levivich 19:05, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I am aware that no discussion of AA88's proposal can take place here, but I think that it is only fair to be allowed to make a one-off response to the allegations made by AmericanAir88. I have followed the same numbering scheme:
  1. WP:Harassment is specifically restricted to "intentionally target a specific person or persons". That has not happened. Where NA1K's actions have fallen within my normal field of work, and I have seen problems, I have been outspoken about them, especially when they have been repeated. That reactive criticism is not targeting.
  2. WP:ADMINACCT says "Administrators are accountable for their actions involving administrator tools". This is the first allegation I have seen anywhere in these discussions which even suggests that I have failed to account for my use admin tools. No evidence of of any example is provided. So far as as I can recall, my only use of admin tools in relation to portals has been in deleting subpages after the closure of an MFD.
    • The claim that BHG does not reason properly is perverse. I have repeatedly posted lengthy reasoned arguments, especially when I have been critical of other editors.
    • I stand by my judgements. A generalised accusation like that needs example of of poor judgement, but AA88 has provided none.
  3. Reversion does not require consensus. It is part of the WP:BRD cycle. I have done a second revert only in cases where the contested edit has been restored while discusion is ongoing.
  4. The 4th para by AA88 is just generalised assertions, without specifics. It is simply an example of the logical fallacy of proof by assertion. The closest thing I can see to a specific is the generalised allegation that I do not co-operate. That is counter-factual: most of the criticism heaped on me is because of my support for oral deletions, in support of which i have opened about 500 consensus-forming discussions. I regard to the questions of portal structure and content which led me to revert NA!K's edit, I have in the last month repeatedly asked NA1K to work with me to design neutrally-worded RFCs to resolve those issues, but NA1K has not taken up that offer. It is perverse to accuse me of non-co-operation when I have repeatedly sought that co-operation.
I note that AA88 says it is not personal. But a set of unevidenced and counter-factual accusations looks very personal to me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:38, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
As an admin, you have access to the block buttons. Suppose you were attempting to mediate a dispute in which one editor repeatedly attacked the intelligence of the other editor. At what point would you consider issuing a civility block? Lepricavark (talk) 21:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Useless proposal, bound to waste a lot of time and create more division and hostility. Wish Floquenbeam hadn't reverted his own closing of this thread. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:49, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IPs adding/re-adding unreferenced material[edit] (talk · contribs), (talk · contribs), and probably others have been adding unreferenced material to many Doors (rock group)-related articles and other album, song, and music bio articles. Specifically, an editor or editors keeps re-adding unreferenced material to L.A. Woman (song) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). After these edits by[70], I updated the article and removed most unreferenced material, since it was tagged "needs additional citations" since April 2014.[71] Nearly the same material, still without references, was re-added by[72] I removed it[73] and added uw-unsourced2 to their talk page.[74] They re-added[75] and I removed with the edit summary: "removed unreferenced material (OR?), please see WP:BURDEN: 'All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution.'"[76] Nearly the same material was again re-added by[77] without any references. They consistently do not add references, provide edit summaries, and have been reverted and warned by other editors. Clearly, they are unable or unwilling to contribute to WP in a meaningful way. —Ojorojo (talk) 23:32, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

I must concur with Ojorojo, this user has no intention of sourcing or communicating with other editors regarding their disruptive editing. Robvanvee 14:49, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Also adding (talk · contribs) to this report as an IP that was also part of the group that overwrote the redirect Spanish Caravan in the same manner. I've sent this and another redirect to RPP recently, both of which were semi'd already by Malcolmxl5 and El C respectively. Jalen Folf (talk) 19:12, 11 November 2019 (UTC) (talk · contribs) has begun similarly re-adding unreferenced material. Reverted and added uw-disruptive4 to talk page (also added Template:ANI-notice to their &'s talk pages). —Ojorojo (talk) 14:49, 12 November 2019 (UTC) (talk · contribs) is carrying on the same edits. Reverted, warned, etc. Since their block expired, is back editing the same. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:30, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
How about we block these IPs for one week each:
These IPs are all from Greece, and might be operated by the same person or by a group of people who are coordinating off-wiki. User:Sphilbrick did some revdels at L.A. Woman (song) on 10 November for copyright violations. If anyone thinks semiprotection is a better option than blocks could they make a list of all the affected articles? If you notice other IPs doing the same thing, feel free to add them to the list. EdJohnston (talk) 17:22, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. Maybe semipro for the articles would have been better. We'll see how this goes and advise. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:31, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Ojorojo, I'm slightly in favor of semipro. S Philbrick(Talk) 00:24, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

User:Aidayoung inserting fringe/promotion, removing sourced content despite warnings, potential COI[edit]

Aidayoung (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Massimo Introvigne is an Italian attorney and member of a New Religious movement called Alleanza Cattolica. In 1988, Introvigne created an organization called CESNUR to lobby for the legitimacy of New Religious Movements such as Scientology.

Aidayoung (talk · contribs) has inserted and re-inserted Introvigne's material while repeatedly deleting well-sourced material critical of Introvigne. Aidayoung has used misleading edit summaries, has misrepresented a source, and their total editing history suggests an Introvigne-related conflict of interest. Recent examples of problem behavior:

On Oleg Maltsev (psychologist):

On Massimo Introvigne:

  • inserts content citing a print book and attributing an extended quote to a scholar named Gallagher.
  • Quote was removed by User:Grayfell after investigation of the print book showed the quote's source was Introvigne himself, not Gallagher.


Additionally, User:Aidayoung may have a conflict of interest. Second and third articles edited were Massimo Introvigne and CESNUR. History shows widespread promotion of Introvigne's material across multiple articles. First denial of being Introvigne occurred in 2017. COI concerns again resurfaced in 2019:

"you included, show very strong ties between Massimo Introvigne, CESNUR and Oleg Maltsev, and between certain editors here, you included, and those three. As for you, you created the article about Oleg Maltsev, and have continued to maintain it, including through adding ever more badly sourced promotional material, and reverting attempts to clean it up, and even though you didn't create the articles about CESNUR and Introvigne, you made the first edits on those articles in 2007, and are still active on them (on multiple language versions of Wikipedia), including by removing material you see as criticising the subjects of the articles; the majority of your other edits here also appear to be on articles with a connection to Introvigne and CESNUR, most recently plugging CESNUR's "Bitter Winter" on multiple language versions of Wikipedia. Making it look as if you work for Introvigne/CESNUR."(per Thomas.W)

Feoffer (talk) 00:04, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

  • Feoffer should answer substantive questions raised in the CESNUR talk page eg did CESNUR defend the Solar Temple or New Acropolis, was Mr Lewis ever associated with CESNUR rather than shooting the messenger. I am obviously a scholar of new religions and for all of us CESNUR is an obvious main reference - the rest is innuendo. Aidayoung (talk) 14:16, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • There are strong connections between the report above and this previous discussion here on WP:ANI, the long discussion about sources on Talk:Oleg Maltsev (psychologist) (which clearly shows that Aidayoung either doesn't understand sourcing at all, in spite of having edited here since 2007, or is deliberately trying to mislead...) and multiple discussions on User talk:Aidayoung. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 16:43, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
  • As I said elsewhere, something is going on here, but I don't know what. After months of inactivity, Aidayoung started editing Talk:Eric Roux minutes after notability issues were raised. I asked how they found this article, but never got a response. This editor seems to think that being "obviously a scholar", or having edited "hundreds" of articles on new religious movements, is relevant to improving articles... but any questions about this, or attempt to discuss COI or SOCK, are deflected as "innuendo" or "baseless accusations".
It's reasonable for this editor to be concerned with privacy issues here, but they are still accountable for their actions. This behavior cannot be dismissed as a coincidence. This editor is a SPA who has no qualms about calling CESNUR-affiliated academics "luminaries" and similar, or padding-out CESNUR, Bitter Winter, and related with tedious editorializing, promotional minutia, and peacock words. This version of Bitter Winter seems like a good example. Grayfell (talk) 03:43, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

I don’t know how one can prove a negative: how can I prove I am NOT one of the CESNUR’s directors? But this discussion is welcome as administrators should solve issues like this, and perhaps even convert “enemies” into friends or at least favor a honest dialogue. Let me be a little bit more analytical.

1. Oleg Maltsev. I wouldn’t start a war of religion about this (Oleg Maltsev’s Applied Science Association is just one among dozens of new religious movements I took an interest on, and a minor one) but I would like an administrator to look at the initial article I wrote and the article as it is now and decide which is more understandable. It is not that Maltsev is not controversial. He is. I included a part on the controversies. Now all the discussion on the controversies is in the lead. It reads: “Exponents of the anti-cult movement in Russia and Ukraine have criticized his association as a cult.[3][4][5][6]”. There is a problem here with references 3, 4, 5, and 6. None refers to Maltsev or his organization. They have been copied and pasted from the article on CESNUR and refer to controversies which happened years before Maltsev even founded his movement. These references are simply wrong as they have nothing to do with Maltsev. Also, why Maltsev is accused of being a “cult leader” is now unclear, since all the parts about its idiosyncratic, controversial theories on religion have been eliminated, with the argument that sources were not authoritative enough. This may well be, but as a result I find the article difficult to understand and not explaining to the readers why, exactly, Maltsev is accused of operating a cult. As I mentioned, I do not have strong feelings about this particular article (even if nobody likes having her work simply cancelled) and look forward to the administrators’ assessment with interest.
2. Bitter Winter. If one looks at my editing and entries I created, it appears as obvious that I am interested in religion in Eastern Asia (much more than CESNUR, which deals mostly with Western groups) I would invite the administrators to google ”Bitter Winter” and see how, despite having been founded in 2018 only, it is used as a source by many mainline media. For scholars of religious liberty issues, the most important document published yearly is the annual report of the U.S. State Department. I would respectfully suggest that administrators download the 2019 chapter on China at [78]. They will notice that Bitter Winter is the most quoted publication in the chapter on China of the report. It is mentioned 15 times. A distant second, The New York Times is quoted 7 times. If Bitter Winter is a source authoritative enough for the US State Department, perhaps it deserves entries in Wikipedia, in the different languages in which it is published. I am aware that some regard it as pro-US and anti-China and in fact I had indicated it in my original entry. IMHO the problem is not whether one agrees or disagrees with Bitter Winter, it is whether it is well-known enough to be encyclopedic.
3. Entry on CESNUR.
a. Gallagher. He wrote the introduction to an edited book where Introvigne contributed a chapter. Usually in these introductions the general editor does not only summarize the chapters but adds his or her own opinions. Maybe I should have clarified this but calling my reference to Gallagher fraudulent is grossly exaggerated.
b. The same people who regard a peer-reviewed journal like The Journal of CESNUR [79] (possibile objection: the Journal is not Elsevier-indexed; answer: the lengthy indexing process only starts two year after a Journal has started being published, and The Journal of CESNUR was launched at the end of 2019), under the responsibility of a board including some of the most well-know names in the field of the study of new religions [80] - yes, Eileen Barker and Gordon Melton are “luminaries” in the study of religious movements and Antoine Faivre is a “luminary” in the study of esotericism, which does not mean that everybody agrees with them - as a source to be deleted from Wikipedia, the go on and quote liberally articles published in 1997 and 1998 (more than twenty years ago) by the French Communist newspaper L’Humanité and the Dutch left-wing newspaper De Groene Amsterdamer in the middle of a heated political controversy about cults, as if they were the Gospel. They become key references in the article. In the CESNUR article, the article by L’Humanité is quoted twice, including in the lead. Accusing CESNUR of defending the Order of the Solar Temple, a criminal group, is a very serious accusation. In the current version, we read that CESNUR scholars have “defended... the Order of the Solar Temple (responsible for 74 deaths in mass murder-suicide),[1][2][3][4]“. CESNUR was accused of having “defended” the Order of the Solar Temple is the articles in L’Humanité and De Groene Amsterdammer. The third article, by the Swiss Broadcasting Corporation, does not mention CESNUR at all. As far asI know, the fact that an accusation has been published in a newspaper, the more so a marginal one, is not enough to accept its as a source in Wikipedia. Neither L’Humanité nor De Groene Amsterdamer offered anything as evidence for this very serious accusation. The only main article on the Solar Temple I could find published by CESNUR scholars, in a book edited by Cambridge University Press [81], does not “defend” the Solar Temple in any way and indeed deprecates its criminal activities. In the talk page, Feoffer added a quote from “Trouw”, an Evangelical Dutch magazine which intervened in the 1997 Amsterdam conference controversy (see below) to the effect that “After the second wave of suicide by members of the Solar Temple, in Cheiry, Switzerland, in 1995, Introvigne declared that they had acted on their own initiative.” Apart from the factual mistake, as the second wave of suicides occurred in France and not in Switzerland, if one reads the Cambridge UP article by Introvigne and Mayer one understands what “acted on their own initiative” means. Introvigne and Mayer dismissed the conspiracy theories that the suicides were really homicides organized by French or other secret services. Stating that the suicides came from the “own initiative” of those who committed suicide rather than from some obscure conspiracy is not a “defense” of the Solar Temple.
c. The Groene Amsterdamer and Trouw are the only sources arguing that CESNUR “defended” New Acropolis. Indeed, De Groene Amsterdamer published its article before the CESNUR conference on 1997 in Amsterdam and discovered (to its credit) that one communication, on New Acropolis, indicated in the program would have been presented by a lady who, although having a Ph.D., was also a member of New Acropolis. An Evangelical Dutch magazine, Trouw, is also mentioned. New Acropolis is fiercely anti-Christian and Trouw was obviously happy to pick up a fight with New Acropolis and, by implication, CESNUR, When Trouw however wrote (criticizing CESNUR for the incident), it also duly noted that the participation of this lady to the conference has been “cancelled” once her affiliation was revealed. De Groene Amsterdamer also mentioned a study of ex-members of New Acropolis by CESNUR director Massimo Introvigne later published by Nova Religio. For those subscribing to JSTor the article is available at [82]. Apart from having passed the peer review of a very respected journal, the article represented different attitudes of ex-members of New Acropolis through a survey, which is different from “defending” New Acropolis. My frank impression is that dropping in the lead the names of movements accused of serious crimes is simply a way to slander.
It is also the case that, as detailed in its Web site, CESNUR has organized more than thirty yearly conferences with more than 3,000 communications. IMHO, it may be interesting to mention the controversy about one single lecture, which was announced but not presented, but the emphasis on this incident is undue.
d. The Aum Shinrikyo incident. I agree it is embarrassing for the scholars involved. But I wonder whether it belongs to an entry on CESNUR, as CESNUR was not involved and the incident was mentioned in passing in a speech by Introvigne at a CESNUR conference (presented as a speech “on” the report while it just “mentions” the report: [83]. Even in its present version, the CESNUR Wikipedia entry gives the impression that in the speech Introvigne defended the report, and accepted the thesis that Aum was innocent. This is false. Here is what Introvigne said: “ A case in point is the much maligned field trip to Japan in April 1995 by a team of American experts to investigate Aum Shinrikyo after the gas attack of 20 March 1995. Their plane tickets and hotel accommodations were paid for by Aum Shinrikyo, although they received no honoraria. One scholar initially concluded that Aum Shinrikyo was being framed. Most of its leaders, he suggested, had no responsibility in the gas attack and the other crimes of which they were accused[12]. The other scholar soon prepared a paper (read in absentia at the yearly conference of CESNUR held at the University of Rome on 10-12 May 1995), in which he suggested that Aum's top leaders were not only guilty of the gas attack, but probably also part of a much larger criminal scheme, involving dealing in drugs and consorting with local organized crime. Both scholars concurred in denouncing human rights violations against hundreds of members of Aum who, unlike the leaders, were certainly neither guilty nor aware of any criminal activity. Otherwise, however, their analyses were quite different. Often cited by anti-cultists in the European debate as the ultimate evidence that scholars are hired guns for the cults, this Japanese experience proves in fact quite the opposite. The fact that two scholars, both with return tickets to Japan paid for by Aum, reached opposite conclusions on Aum's involvement in terrorist and criminal activities is strong evidence that funding from the movements may influence but does not necessarily control the results of research.”
I believe we finally agree that Professor Lewis was never a member of CESNUR.
In the talk page I was not the only one questioning whether this discussion belongs in an article about CESNUR. The trip was not sponsored by CESNUR. One CESNUR board member, J. Gordon Melton, did participate in the trip but not on behalf of CESNUR. Reader’s critical article quoted does not mention CESNUR at all. These incidents belong to the entries on Melton and Lewis rather than CESNUR.
4. Entry on Massimo Introvigne. I do not want to waste the administrator’s time but here again it is difficult not to see a consistent effort to downplay the positive sources (be they The New York Times) and emphasize obscure sources if they are negative.
5. Eric Roux. I know Eric Roux is a Scientologist but his book on Scientology is reasonably good and has had positive independent reviews. I expressed the opinion that he is noteworthy enough to have a Wikipedia entry.
6. As some critics of the so-called “pro-cult” attitude of (most) scholars of new religious movements see any positive references to CESNUR, Gordon Melton, Eileen Barker, Massimo Introvigne or even Bitter Winter as propaganda, those with a different opinion may see their systematic use of obscure sources to denigrate the same scholars and organizations as counter-propaganda. Here is precisely where administrators may come in and restore some balance.
7. I have multiple interests in life and do not edit every day nor even every month. I did not know this was a crime. I edit mostly on religion, particularly Asian. The claim that I only edit articles connected with Massimo Introvigne and CESNUR may be easily disproved by reading at my editing history, although in recent weeks I had to spend time in contesting what I see as a malicious campaign to present some serious scholars and organizations as if they were a bunch of criminals.
Aidayoung (talk) 11:06, 13 November 2019 (UTC)


  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Trouw2 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference L'Humanité was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^, S. W. I.; Corporation, a branch of the Swiss Broadcasting. "The 1994 Solar Temple cult deaths in Switzerland". SWI
  4. ^ Cite error: The named reference kwaad was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  • Can't speak to the Maltsev or Roux issues, but Aidayoung's arguments on CESNUR boil down to the claim that the reliable sources are just plain wrong and shouldn't be saying what they're saying.
I can, however, rebut Aida's final point about having generic interest in Asian religion. Nearly all of Aidayoung's edits are to articles linked to Introvigne or his publications. While a quick glance at their editing history might initially suggest a general interest in Asian religion, if you look closely, you'll find that the attorney-turned-lobbyist Introvigne is almost invariably mentioned in the articles, if not in the text then in the citations.
This pattern of promotion holds over a period of twelve years, and tracks with Introvigne's own relatively-recent focus on Asia beginning in the mid-to-late '10s. Aidayoung's edits to Asian religions similarly only begin in 2017, a full decade after Aida's first edits to Introvigne/CESNUR. This strongly suggests Aidayoung's campaign of promotion is not independent of Introvigne. Feoffer (talk) 15:09, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The discussion on Talk:Oleg Maltsev (psychologist) that I mentioned in my post above was also all about Massimo Introvigne, and a pure promo-piece about his friend Oleg Maltsev, sourced only to Maltsev himself, that was used as source for just about everything in that article, and that Aidayoung stubbornly insisted on re-adding, claiming that it was a reliable source since it was written by a professor and published on what she claimed is "a peer-reviewed encyclopaedia published by a reputable university", but in reality is none of that, since it's a project started by an individual at that university, and not peer-reviewed at all. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 16:34, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't know if relevant to this ANI, but the AfD of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eric Roux, has several other editors raising concerns on CESNUR as an RS, including Nblund and 4meter4. Britishfinance (talk) 22:13, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • comment I share several of the WP:COI concerns voiced above. @Aidayoung: Bitter Winter is a CESNUR publication and your edits are clearly all related to that group in one way or another. It's not against the rules to have a narrow topic interest, but this is a niche academic discipline and your edits are overwhelmingly dedicated to promoting it. Even if you have no professional conflict of interest, your behavior is mostly indistinguishable from that of a WP:COI editor and it needs to be addressed.
Some of this may be solved by having a centralized discussion about the reliability of CESNUR at WP:RSN. If editors agree (and I suspect they will) that CESNUR is a poor source for establishing notability and a weak source for facts, then it should be much more straightfoward to address the content issues being discussed here. Nblund talk 23:05, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Aidayoung has asked us to look at their contributions, so I did. Looking at Commons:Special:Contributions/Aidayoung, Aidayoung has has first-hand familiarity with these people and subjects, as they have uploaded several "own work" photos used over the years. As with most of their edits, these photos are used for articles which have disproportionately cited Introvigne.
As just one example, about a third of the footnotes for Victory Altar (which was created in November 2017) cite this article by Introvigne. The photos uploaded by Aidayoung are the exact same photos used by Introvigne in the source, which was posted a few days before the Wikipedia article was created. By uploading these photos, Aidayoung is saying that they own the copyright to photos which had previously been used by Introvigne.
Weixinism shows the same pattern of image use, and Bnei Baruch and Oleg Maltsev (psychologist) were both similarly lopsided in how they cited sources. This behavior strongly suggests that, at minimum, Aidayoung has been working very closely with Introvigne on multiple projects. If not, they should explain this discrepancy, briefly, for WP:COPYVIO reasons, if nothing else. Grayfell (talk) 02:12, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
"The Wikipedia pages in English "Massimo Introvigne" and "CESNUR" have been attacked by autonomous users and pseudonyms that Wikipedia administrators have readily identified and banned. Unfortunately they did the same with the "Massimo Introvigne" page in Russian and there it seems that the administrators are less ready to react. The interventions on Wikipedia leave traces and it is therefore possible to know that at least some of these that in wikipedian jargon are called acts of vandalism started from computers of people and locations linked to the Russian anti-cult movement and in particular to Alexander Dvorkin, who is deputy - President of the European anti-cult coordination organization FECRIS and for about twenty years has been conducting a campaign of insults against CESNUR and myself ... not very effective, since we are still here and indeed we are certainly more active than twenty years ago.
This demonstrates conclusively that Introvigne does have a _very_ active familiarity with very same two articles that Aidayoung has actively edited, beginning 12 years ago. Introvigne's comments above seem to precisely mirror Aidayoung's comments about allegedly-Russian vandalism of Introvigne and CESNUR articles. Based on this last diff, for the first time it is reasonable to believe we actually may be dealing with Introvigne himself, rather than just someone in his sprawling network with a COI.
What's even more conclusive, however, is Grayfell's above observation that Aidayoung uploaded (as OWN WORK) photos previously published by Introvigne. Feoffer (talk) 08:08, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

I note that most of those who have commented here have also edited in an “anti-cult” sense previous entries. Nothing wrong about it but they have their own agenda. The point is that academic literature on new religious movements in general very often cites Introvigne and CESNUR. it would be very bad editing to write about new religious movements and ignore articles and books written by Introvigne or other CESNUR authors only because some here happens not to like them. On pictures, these are simply pictures provided by new religious movements to those who ask to illustrate sympathetic studies of them. Some of mine have been canceled for copyright issues and I have presented others as my own with the consent of the religious movements concerned to make the copyright approval process simpler. Administrators should simply look at CESNUR Web pages including encyclopedia at, journal at and Website at, plus programs of its conferences to decide whether or not it is a well-known organization and authoritative source in the field of new religious movements, and at the WRSP encyclopedia at to decide whether it is a fringe project by a lonely professor or a cooperative enterprise involving hundreds of respected scholars. I note that substantive questions about the editing on the contested entries have not been answered, despite offers to engage in a dialogue considering all aspects of the issues. I believe it is a fair conclusion that the study of new religious movements in the academia sees a conflict between a majority sympathetic to these movements and a minority hostile to them and that in the (pro-NRMs) majority texts by Introvigne, CESNUR, Bromley, Melton, etc. are regarded as authoritative. We are talking of authors published by Brill, Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, University of California Press (editor of Nova Religio), not of newspapers published by the French Communist Party or one of the Dutch Green parties, whose anti-CESNUR diatribes of 20 years ago are obsessively referenced by some editors here... Aidayoung (talk) 15:28, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I just want to make sure that "I have presented others as my own with the consent of the religious movements concerned to make the copyright approval process simpler" is not overlooked, that we move to delete all uploads that this person has falsely branded as their own work in order to evade our licensing requirements. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
I have started a deletion discussion at Commons, here: Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Files of user:Aidayoung (2). Looking through those images to start that discussion, I noticed that they are either glossy and professional-looking images which have almost certainly been provided for publicity purposes, or are snapshots taken on an iPhone 6. It's certainly a popular phone choice, but this is also another potential indicator that these were taken by the same person. Additionally, one of the uploads is File:Italian iPhone 2779.jpg, which was taken in Taiwan, not Italy. I don't know why any image of a person would be named that, but regardless, it's another point against this being a coincidence. Grayfell (talk) 00:27, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
I note Aidayoung uploaded an Iphone6 photo from Odessa taken in Oct 2016. On a hunch, I checked to see if Introvigne happened to travel to Odessa, Ukraine that month. Whaddya know, another coincidence. Feoffer (talk) 03:00, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
To be honest I don't think Aidayoung is Introvigne, for a number of reasons, just someone working for Introvigne/CESNUR, and travelling with Introvigne. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 03:17, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
@Aidayoung: Let me start by once again pointing out that I have never edited any "cult articles", and had also never edited any other article even remotely related to CESNUR before the previous report here at WP:ANI (linked to in my first edit in this discussion). As for the rest it's just a repeat of CESNUR's by now utterly boring standard line about every addition of anything that can be seen as negative to any article related to CESNUR, Introvigne, Oleg Maltsev or any of the other cults that Introvigne and CESNUR fraternise with, and every removal of any of the unsourced/badly sourced promotion that is repeatedly added to those articles, being linked to either communists, "green parties" or Russian anti-cultists. And no, being hosted on WSRP doesn't automagically make material a reliable source, since it's of very variable quality, and not peer-reviewed, so everything hosted there has to stand on its own, and be carefully scrutinized and evaluated. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 17:17, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Each of us may have some valid points here.

I am by inclination a peaceful person and one willing to take opposite points of view into account. The fact that L’Humanitè is the journal of the French Communist Party and De Groene Amsterdamer of a small left-wing ecological Dutch party are facts. I find Wikipedia copyright practice difficult to understand and perhaps have something to learn (if a religion, being it the Catholic Church or an obscure cult, wants to provide sympathetic researchers with pictures and authorize them to use them it seems to me a good thing in a world with too much copyright hassles, but Wikipedia may disagree - other Web sites don’t).

On certain entries, again, I believe that rather than continuing a time-consuming spiral of adding-reverting-counter-reverting we should ask administrators to look at least at CESNUR and solve some issues.

I am both flattered to be identified with Introvigne and find slightly amusing that, having a significant number of staff members and research assistants, as anybody who has attended a CESNUR conference knows, he would edit Wikipedia personally - it seems other matters should keep him quite busy Aidayoung (talk) 14:17, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Bacondrum's non-stop bad-faith accusations[edit]

User:Bacondrum and I have been engaged in Talk:Call-out culture. They never stop accusing me of acting in bad faith. Here is a list of diff demonstrating recent instances:

And that's from just the last two days. I can cite more from the immediate past if necessary.

In response to their repeat cherrypicking accusation, I asked the user several times to WP:AGF (see here for one instance). I also stated that their accusations had no base. According to my meticulous search of scholarly sources and the internet, most sources on the topic happen to bring one group of viewpoints (something that's not represented in proportion in the article currently); and I challenged Bacondrum to demonstrate otherwise. Instead of offering the sources, they only continue to accuse me of acting in bad faith in periodic intervals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sridc (talkcontribs) 01:00, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Please note that there is an ongoing content dispute regarding this topic (we already have a mediator who offered to help!), and this report is not about content disputes.

Prior reports on Bacondrum[edit]

This user has been reported here previously. The last two, in fact, are in relation to the same topic (Call-out culture):

  • POV editing ("Bacondrum has now deleted 37K bytes of reliably sourced material from Alt-right" -- this happened with Call-out culture too; see next section below)

Possible explanation[edit]

Given that the complaint in the second ANI report was about Bacondrum deleting a large portion (compare this to this) of the article text, despite the consensus among editors to keep majority of it (here & here) - the fact that I'm recently engaged expanding ( see here) the article to be as elaborate as it was before Bacondrum got involved, I can only surmise that Bacondrum is WP:NOTHERE as far as Call-out culture is concerned. Which brings me to:

Request for action[edit]

Given this pattern of behaviour, I request a topic ban of User:Bacondrum on Call-out culture. Every day it feels to me that this user is hindering progress (as User:VQuakr from the first ANI report observed, they "are going to exhaust other editors' patience pretty quickly at this rate"). Please take a look at Talk:Call-out culture (scroll from middle to end of page), to realize how much time, energy and effort I have been putting on this article.

Reply to reporter[edit]

SridYO 00:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

If I understand right, the main thing you're objecting to is being accused of bias and WP:CHERRY. I don't think that cherrypicking is that severe of a thing to bring up - it's usually seen as a content and not a conduct complaint, except in the most egregious cases, and it isn't always deliberate. Remember that bias doesn't have to be intentional and doesn't always raise to the level of WP:TENDENTIOUS editing; bringing it up is an important part of resolving disputes. Many editors are unaware of their own biases, and you have definitely described some sources, like Haidt, as neutral on a subject where I definitely wouldn't consider them such. I think Bacondrum could have worded his objections more cautiously, but "I think you're putting WP:UNDUE weight on one point of view" is central to the dispute here, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that your edits have at least had a very heavy focus on adding voices, like Haidt, with a very particular culture-war angle on the topic to the article. Obviously the content dispute is partially over whether those changes are needed or whether they end up giving that angle undue weight, but I don't think it makes sense to accuse Bacondrom of personal attacks for basically articulating his position in that dispute (ie. that those sources don't reflect the broader view and are therefore cherrypicked.) --Aquillion (talk) 09:24, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
From WP:AOBF, "repeatedly alleging bad faith motives could be construed as a personal attack" - is what happened here. In regards to the content dispute question you raise, it would appear you have somewhat chosen to ignore my response. Here it is again, for your benefit:

One such earlier instance of you saying it was "It comes off like your trying to tie as many negative to the topic as possible", to which I responded: "That's not me trying to push a particular point of view; this is simply how it is. One group of viewpoints are much more common than the other (original) group of viewpoints; you can easily verify this for yourself by searching for sources (I searched both internet and scholarly search engines). See WP:YESPOV where it says to, I quote, indicate the relative prominence of opposing views.".

Once their initial WP:AOBF was addressed, they either should have provided the evidence (sources) asked for, or stopped WP:AOBF. They did neither. SridYO 14:15, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Back & forth area[edit]

There's a pattern of harrassment with the endless spurious reports from Srid. I've been critical of edits and proposals on talk, no personal attacks. I've been trying to be more civil after a bad start between us, but it makes it hard when every disagreement ends in a report. This is a content dispute, nothing more. How many times is he allowed to do this before it's seen as disruptive? I mean look at the reports, clutching at straws, this is vindictive reporting, is it not? This request for a topic ban is him clearly trying to shut down debate. Bacondrum (talk) 02:23, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Comment by largely uninvolved party[edit]

  • @Sridc: I haven't looked at anything you wrote. But are you aware that probably the most common result of repeatedly opening ANI threads on another editor in a very short space of time is a WP:Boomerang? In such cases, the one who's exhausted everyone's patience tends to be you. As a case in point, you opened a WP:DRN, it was far from perfect and it wasn't just your fault. Still it looked to be somewhat proceeding. I'm not sure why you didn't just let that proceed with hopefully all of you learning something and also coming to some sort of consensus, rather than a third ANI in few days which has prevented the DRN from proceeding for now. (The 2nd ANI may not have been intended for ANI, but it actually dealt mostly with stuff best dealt with on ANI.) I personally suggest you just withdraw this complaint. Nil Einne (talk) 02:48, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
@Nil Einne: The last time I made an error in opening an ANI here (I really should have gone for dispute resolution; but then being a new Wikipedian I was still getting to grips of how all this works). But for this ANI, I had put a lot of thought into the matter. I tried discussing the matter with User:Bacondrum in the article talk page several times (see the diffs; also the Talk page), but they do not show any sign of stopping. Per WP:AOBF, "Without clear evidence that the action of another editor is actually in bad faith or harassment, repeatedly alleging bad faith motives could be construed as a personal attack.". As I understand, an ANI report would be the natural next step. SridYO 02:49, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Also, I wasn't aware that DRN and ANI had to be mutually exclusive. I also wasn't aware that we were to suspend Talk page activity while the DRN is active. The article is currently locked, so I figured I do research on sources to use and post them in the Talk page (see Talk:Call-out_culture -- scroll from middle to end). SridYO 02:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
To be clear, the 2nd ANI was not something suitable for DRN. It was a complaint about another editor, something that will not be dealt with at DRN, but will be dealt with at ANI. So regardless of where you wanted to post it, it was basically an ANI complaint. As me and others have said in the previous ANIs, maybe the behaviour of some of the parties involved isn't perfect, but it doesn't seem to rise the level requiring action at ANI. The natural next step is sometimes just to put aside your reasonable or not, annoyance with what another editor has said and done, and work in improving wikipedia via the processes available. Actually being able to put aside your differences, disagreements and grievences is a key part of collaborating on wikipedia, as it is in a lot of other places. Sometimes others go to far, and we will sanction them for it and not expect people to just accept it. But not every misbehaviour requires action, and in fact if it did you'd also be blocked by now so you should be glad about that. Anyway I don't think it's likely anything will result from this thread other than it being closed without action and largely ignored albeit still having wasted your time and a small amount of mine, and probably others when they read at least part of it. But you should be aware that opening more and more of these threads probably isn't pushing us towards the action which you seem to desire namely some sanction of Bacondrum, but instead some sanction of you. As for the DRN issue, well I don't do stuff there but I'm not surprised when one party is trying to get one of the parties sanctioned, it gets put on hold. The fact that you're still so new and still so unaware of how everything works, is maybe a good sign you need to take a step back and stop trying to get Bacondrum sanctioned every 3rd day or whatever it is, and instead focus on the article content. As I believe I said before, ultimately one editor cannot permanently prevent changes to an article since once enough editors are involved, it will be clear if consensus is against them. (Although I don't believe it's only one editor opposed to some of your proposals anyway.) Nil Einne (talk) 03:07, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
@Nil Einne: I will continue to work with Call-out culture, either way. However, with Bacondrum this process is going to be unnecessarily long and painful. I'd recommend a minimum 1 month topic ban on Call-out culture. Please take the whole context into consideration before making a decision; consider their mass deletion history (I provided references above), and continued opposition to improve this article. I don't even understand how they were able to get away with deleting a huge portion of the article early this year despite lacking consensus from other editors. SridYO 03:09, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Just saw your response above. While I continue to reflect on it, please note a correction. I did not post the second ANI here (it is actually the first ANI; I ignored linking the second ANI). SridYO 03:12, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
I replied on your talk page [84] since while what I say may be of some benefit to others reading this discussion, I should try and cut down on the number of lengthy replies by me at ANI largely consisting of advice to editors involved. Nil Einne (talk) 04:08, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
I sincerely want this content dispute moderated Srid appears to be unwilling to find a compromise and is using ANI reports to shut down debate. Bacondrum (talk) 03:00, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
DRN and WP:ANI are mutually exclusive. Forum shopping in Wikipedia is strongly discouraged. I have placed the DRN thread on hold while this matter is resolved. I don't really understand how User:Sridc thinks that they can have a content dispute at the same time as they are trying to have the other editor topic-banned. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:27, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: DRN involves User:Aquillion as well, so it would be between the three of us? Even if Bacondrum is not going to get a topic ban - I think involving you, Robert, in Talk:Call-out_culture discussions such that I'm not dealing only with Bacondrum would be of tremendous help. Sorry, I don't really know how DRN process is going to play out, but if an another active neutral editor (such as you) gets involved, that I would consider that to be an acceptable solution. In the last two days, however, wherein I delineated so much of the sources - it was basically Bacondrum word-salading / WP:AOBF'ing me - so the future of the article looked rather bleak. SridYO 03:35, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Srid's behaviour[edit]

I believe this report should boomerang. Srid may be new, but he has: Been edit warring -

  1. 00:47, 8 November 2019 (UTC) "Bold edit, fixing neutrality of intro paragraph. 1) Move feminist sources below to 'Description' section (inasmuch as it is not NPOV). b) Use Haidt's book to describe the synopsis."
  2. 23:44, 7 November 2019 (UTC) "Undid revision 925118534 by Aquillion (talk) - This is not how I understand WP:BRD to work. You made a change, I reverted it (citing properly). Now it is time for you to address the many arguments I made on the talk page. Please do, thanks."
  3. 23:39, 7 November 2019 (UTC) "Undid revision 925117894 by Aquillion (talk) - This was discussed in Talk. Ctrl+F "Evan Gerstmann""
  4. 22:13, 7 November 2019 (UTC) "Undid revision 925107941 by Bacondrum (talk) -- They are verbatim quote from a reliable source. Your 'challenge' does not have any substance, was already addressed in the Talk page."