From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search


Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Swifty[edit]

Wrong venue. T. Canens (talk) 00:28, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user 
Swifty (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)Swifty*talkcontribs 17:15, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
Sanction being appealed 
User:Swifty. Kww has been hounding me since I asked for his help on a good faith edit over a situation I thought was over until "Blue (Bill Mack song) was created. Ever since I was told to ask him for help he's hounded me and watching ever edit I make as you can see in
the links he even is taking away my rights to use the Author request deletion when I am done with Wikipedia and want no part in it because I'm tired of being hounded. I asked him nicely to back off me and he won't and I've even want to Fastily cause he's getting me to where I'm crying my eyes out cause I feel like he's watching me and I don't like it So please someone ask this guy to stop and please delete my uploads so I can leave this site forever. Swifty*talkcontribs 17:15, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
Administrator imposing the sanction 
Kww (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Notification of that administrator 
The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Additional comments by Swifty[edit]

Statement by Kww[edit]

I believe this entire report to be grossly misplaced, but leave it to another admin to deal with.—Kww(talk) 17:31, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Swifty[edit]

Comment by Ohiostandard[edit]

Ed's perfectly correct, of course. This should be closed asap: It's the wrong venue for appeal of a non-AE block; the block appeal is already receiving plenty of admin attention on Swifty's talk page (link/permalink); the user has forum shopped this to other admin's talk pages; he's been disrespectful of others' time by the carelessness with which this was prepared and posted, & etc.

I'm sorely tempted to hat it myself, but I'm not an admin and that would be a really bad precedent for this board. ( That already happens much too often at AN/I, imo. ) Besides, I'm loathe to usurp the prerogatives of the mighty, or at least of "the mighty longsuffering". Basically user Swifty uploaded images, then decided he wanted to take his ball and go home, ie delete those images. So he G7'd them, and Kww reverted. It's already been explained to him (by admin Beeblebrox) on his talk page by that he gave up any sort of "ownership" or special privilege concerning those images the moment he uploaded them. I don't edit our pop-star/singer fan articles, btw, nor have I had any previous interaction with Swifty or his predecessor account(s).

Kudos to Kww for reverting and then blocking Swifty, when he persisted: That was a necessary action, and absolutely called for. – OhioStandard (talk) 00:26, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

( Please note: If you wish to respond to any of the points raised above, kindly add those comments to your own "comments by" section. )

Result of the appeal by User:Swifty[edit]

  • This request does not mention any Arbcom case whose provisions are being violated, so it does not belong here. The editor who filed it, User:Swifty, has filed an unblock request on his own talk page. If admins feel that Swifty's complaints about Kww's admin action need some response, it would be logical for them to comment in Swifty's unblock discussion, grant the unblock, or open a discussion at WP:ANI. Meanwhile I suggest that this AE request be closed. Swifty (James) has been on Wikipedia since early 2011 under this and a predecessor account, and has 9,000 edits. Until today he has never been blocked. It is possible he is a good-faith editor who is just having a bad day. EdJohnston (talk) 00:16, 24 March 2012 (UTC)[edit]

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning[edit]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement 
Biosketch (talk) 14:23, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 
  1. 20 March – Revert of this edit
  2. 20 March – Revert of this edit
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) 

The IP range to which today's IP corresponds has been active in our topic area for weeks, if not months. There's no doubt he's aware his conduct is unacceptable.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint 

This user's been hounding User:Gilabrand's edits for weeks (see here, for example) and is apparently an alternate account of "retired" editor Ceedjee (talk · contribs).—Biosketch (talk) 14:23, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 

Notified.—Biosketch (talk) 14:26, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Discussion concerning[edit]

Statement by[edit]

Comments by others about the request concerning[edit]

  • Some of these IPs could indeed be User:Ceedjee. The history of Ceedjee's user page shows at least the IP adding a 'retired' banner there. Reviewing editors and admins should look at this set of IP edits from, which is also from 91.* and also from Belgium but from a different range. (See also an adjacent range). It could be more logical to close this as an AE and open a report at WP:Sockpuppet investigations. Warlike editing by a fluctuating IP is immediately blockable under WP:SOCK and doesn't need Arbcom sanctions to justify it. In any case, Ceedjee was notified of ARBPIA in 2008.
  • Meanwhile, the named subject of this report is This editor has broken 1RR on March 20 at 1920 Nebi Musa riots and is clearly an IP-hopper. A three-day block seems justified. EdJohnston (talk) 06:12, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Does he considered a sock?(i.e should he be reverted at sight)?--Shrike (talk) 06:46, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
The edits of banned users may be reverted but neither the IP nor Ceedjee is banned at this time. I hope someone will agree to present this case at SPI because in my opinion it ought to be closed soon as an AE. EdJohnston (talk) 15:46, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Gatoclass[edit]

The IP could be Ceedjee, returned without logging in. He last edited in 2010, so he may simply have forgotten his password. No evidence has been presented to demonstrate the IP is abusing multiple accounts however.

As I recall, Ceedjee was a reasonably responsible editor who was unusual in that he wasn't clearly in the camp of either of the usual factions. He eventually had a bit of meltdown and quit the project. If the IP is Ceedjee, he may also have missed the 1RR restriction given that he's been away a long time.

Biosketch has added no credible evidence regarding the "hounding" charge, and the IP's edits do not appear to be tendentious. On the other hand, Gilabrand twice removed substantial contextual info from the lede, misleadingly stating that the info was "unsourced" when it appears to simply summarize the body of the article.[1] After the IP added a source to the lede, Gilabrand again reverted the IP's edits, unjustifably referring to them as "vandalism" when the edits in question clearly did not fit into that category.[2] Gatoclass (talk) 08:40, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
  • I don't see anything immediately actionable at the moment, although it would really help things if the IP could comment one way or the other on being Cedjee. Also, a voluntary break from editing the same articles as Gilabrand would probably go some distance towards alleviating some tensions. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:27, 23 March 2012 (UTC)


BoDu (talk · contribs) is banned from the topic of the former Yugoslavia for 90 days, broadly construed. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:05, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning DIREKTOR[edit]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement 
BoDu (talk) 14:47, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
DIREKTOR (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 
  1. 24 February 2012 Personal attack.
  2. 24 February 2012 Disrespectful comment.
  3. 2 March 2012 Harassment is alleged without clear evidence.
  4. 3 March 2012 Taunting and another allegation without clear evidence
  5. 4 March 2012 Taunting.
  6. 4 March 2012 Deletion of my comment after I tried to discuss the user's behaviour on his talk page.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 

It is clear that there is an unfolding pattern of incivility by User:DIREKTOR.

The statement by DIREKTOR below shows once again why he is an disruptive editor. Instead of talking on-topic (his conduct), he is talking off-topic (my conduct). BoDu (talk) 16:25, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
This request is concerning DIREKTOR. I have no problem discussing my conduct, but this is not place to do so. As you can see above, I said that the statement by DIREKTOR is disruptive, and the consequences of that are obvious in the last 24 hours or so. This request is becoming request concerning myself. I can't believe that the administrators did not warn DIREKTOR to stop talking off-topic and instead submit a request for enforcement against me. I can't believe that the administrators allowed themselves to be drawn into the off-topic discussion.
@Lothar von Richthofen, removing comments from one's personal talkpage is allowed, but the problem here is how it was done. My comment was a attempt to resolve dispute, and his response was the deletion with following statement: "Talk to someone who cares to listen". It's humiliating. BoDu (talk) 17:00, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
@Lothar von Richthofen, I apologize, I didn't know about that. NULL said that "the sequence of events doesn't indicate forum shopping, but simply someone following instructions and being redirected, by others, to more appropriate venues", and that's my point as well. Even this request I submitted only after instructed to do so by Salvio giuliano. I don't see why you agree with DIREKTOR that this report is likely another disruptive forum-shopping attempt. No editor who has self-respect will allow another editor to act persistently in a disrespectful manner, and I provided sufficient evidence that DIREKTOR behaves in such way.
@EdJohnston, the conditional unblock given by Salvio was that I undertake not to undo those edits again and start a WP:DRN thread. Regarding the edits, you can check my contributions and see that I have not engaged in any edit war, not just the former Yugoslavia but anywhere on Wikipedia. Concerning the DRN thread, you already know I accomplished that instruction. BoDu (talk) 16:40, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 


Discussion concerning DIREKTOR[edit]

Statement by DIREKTOR[edit]

I would not want to give the impression that I think it "beneath me" to properly answer a WP:AE report, but considering the circumstances of the report and who posted it, I'm having a difficult time taking it seriously. I would like everyone to please note that this seems to be merely the latest installment of a WP:FORUMSHOPPING war conducted by User:BoDu in order to prevail by "alternative" means in a content dispute on Template:Yugoslav Axis collaborationism. After being blocked and literally forced to stop edit-warring against everyone, the user posted a thread on WP:DRN, tried to delete the whole template on WP:TFD, reported me on WP:ANI, canvassed various admins to sanction me, and so on. Now WP:AE. All this because his edits do not have consensus, and he obviously really wants to have his way. Now, I'm biased as hell, but if this charade charade isn't disruptive I have an inaccurate understanding of the term. -- Director (talk) 18:44, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

@NULL. While others have given the user ideas on where exactly to continue his forumshopping, imo its forumshopping nonetheless. The succession of threads was not posted by the users that suggested this or that, but by BoDu himself - I don't think anyone suggested this sustained campaign. And the fact itself that BoDu was continuously being shown the door really illustrates what I mean about all this being content-related POV pushing. Also, I fail to see the logic of proceeding from edit-warring to ANI to DRN to TFD and then to AE. Is the user trying to resolve a content dispute or address behavioral grievances? Well, I'd say neither. By edit-warring, by blocking opponents, by "winning" the dispute, or by deleting the whole template(!) - he gets to remove the info he's been trying to remove all along. And I think its rather obvious that's what this forumshopping-spree is about. -- Director (talk) 07:59, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning DIREKTOR[edit]

Comment by Lothar von Richthofen[edit]

Some of DIREKTOR's comments are heated and a bit uncivil, but nothing really egregious has been demonstrated. I'd also like to point out to the submitter that removing comments from one's personal talkpage is 100% allowed. The evidence provided by DIREKTOR in his statement brings into question the conduct of BoDu. I would agree with him that this report is likely another disruptive forum-shopping attempt. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:57, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

@BoDu: Discussion of your own behaviour is completely relevant. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:28, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

No action for a few days; is this to be resolved and/or closed? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:47, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment by NULL[edit]

Without commenting on the validity of the AE request itself and with no knowledge of the dispute, the allegation of forum shopping is unfounded, or at very least unfair. BoDu raised the matter at ANI first and was told by both GiantSnowman and BWilkins that the appropriate venue was DRN. He then took the matter to DRN, where it was closed as inappropriate for the board and TransporterMan directed him to TFD. He then raised the issue at TFD. The sequence of events here doesn't indicate forum shopping, but simply someone following instructions and being redirected, by others, to more appropriate venues. NULL talk
02:06, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning DIREKTOR[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
  • While I may agree that a couple of those comments are somewhat lacking in tact, all of those diffs are at least a week old, some of them more than two. I'm not sure how we can action those. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:13, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Direktor has been asked to tone down the rhetoric a few times but I'm not seeing anything severe enough for action here, also agree with Blade they are pretty stale. --WGFinley (talk) 16:17, 14 March 2012 (UTC)


When I first posted Direktor hadn't responded yet, now that he has I'm thinking he has provided good evidence of a forum shopping boomerang. We may need to take some action regarding that. --WGFinley (talk) 19:59, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

  • Recommend a three-month topic ban of BoDu from the former Yugoslavia. Constantly filing the same dispute in multiple venues is an abuse of our system. Looking at the conditional unblock given by Salvio after the report at User talk:BoDu#February 2012, it seems to me that BoDu is not living up to Salvio's hopes. It seems to me that if BoDu continues with his recent style of behavior he will be hurting rather than helping an eventual compromise about Template:Yugoslav Axis collaborationism. Since Salvio's offer to BoDu from late February led to bad results so quickly, I don't that any promise of improved behavior from BoDu would be credible. To allow the writing of neutral articles in contentious areas we sometimes need to ban people whose personal loyalties prevent them from working effectively with others. That leads me to prefer a 3-month topic ban. EdJohnston (talk) 17:22, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I'd be fine with a 3 month topic ban, pretty much per EdJohnston. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:08, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
    If there are no objections in the next 24 hours I'll close this and impose a 3 month topic ban on BoDu. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:19, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Muhammad Images[edit]

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

To: The Committee (this is a motion to amend but it is not clear where this goes, sorry)

Arbitration Commitee case on images of Muhammad

To Amend time for discussion in Muhammad images case

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 

Motion: This week Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Muhammad images opened, after mediation to construct the RfC. Of course, no one yet knows what consensus may emerge, if any, but we do know that, although shorter times for leaving the RfC open were discussed during mediation, that did not gain support and it is now shceduled to last 30 days. This takes us past the deadline in the case (two months), please amend. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:02, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) 

Not applicable.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint 
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 


Discussion concerning Muhammad Images Case[edit]

Statement by Muhammad Images Case[edit]

Comments by others about the request concerning Muhammad Images Case[edit]

Result concerning Muhammad Images Case[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Wrong venue. What you are looking for is requests for amendment. T. Canens (talk) 05:53, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Now at WP:A/R/A#Request to amend prior case: Muhammad images. Closing. T. Canens (talk) 06:16, 27 March 2012 (UTC)


No action taken. T. Canens (talk) 23:14, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Vecrumba[edit]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement 
Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 15:15, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
Vecrumba (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 
  1. 25 March 2012 Accuses me of engaging in personal attacks, accuses me of breaching my interaction ban, interjects himself into an issue which doesn't involve him on my talk page
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) 
  1. Wikipedia:EEML#Log_of_blocks.2C_bans.2C_and_restrictions - has been blocked 3 times (24 hours, 24 hours, 3 weeks) for breaching this interaction ban
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 

All times here are my local time. At 2256 on 24 March, I responded to a question by another editor on my talkpage - an issue which does not concern Vecrumba at all. At 2302 I received an email from Vecrumba thru the wikipedia email system in which he accused me off getting on the "anti-evil EE nationalist ball", and in which he asked what someone of EE heritage did wrong to me or my family, and in which he said I have a bottomless well of vitriol. He also accused me of "Polophibic (sic) crap". I ignored this email. As 0552 25 March he posted the above to my talk page -- again he is not involved. This is a direct breach of his interaction ban as per the EEML case. I removed his interaction ban breach. At this point I noticed that at 2217 on 24 March he sent EdJohnston an email, obviously pushing for action for something that neither are actually familiar with. At 0055 on 25 March Ed replied telling him to post his concerns on wiki. I told Ed that what Vecrumba posted on my talk page is not what he had in mind, and asked him to take action (knowing the interaction ban is in place). Ed has refused. Ed's comment about not remembering the interaction ban is irrelevant -- Vecrumba knows he is under an interaction ban with me, as per the above bans (and amendment requests in which he and others participated in).

Background (the only background which is relevant): I am working on an article on the Polandball meme to have it on DYK on 1 April. Read my response as noted above for some more links on this meme. What is on my userpage is a great example of this meme, with a Wikipedia theme...and yes, 90% of Polandball cartoon are about Polandball. Anyway, this is totally irrelevant, but it gives a little context for the cartoon currently on my userpage. It does not excuse Vecrumba sending me accusatory emails thru the system (for which I am now asking him NEVER to send me email again) and it does not excuse Vecrumba for wilfully breaching his interaction ban with me, on a matter that does not concern him in the slightest, and in such a way that attempts to portray me as acting inappropriately in relation to interaction bans I am currently under.

I am also requesting that Vecrumba be blocked for a week - this was the length of my last block for a single revert on an article, not talk page personal attacks[4].

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 


Discussion concerning Vecrumba[edit]

Statement by Vecrumba[edit]

Poland can into Wikipedia.jpg
I communicated my concerns to Ed Johnston. He suggested I comment at Russavia's talk. He may have been unaware of the additional interaction ban. I was understandably upset by Russavia's grossly inappropriate "humor", if that's what slandering an entire nationality of WP editors as vandals passes for on Wikipedia these days. I realized later (after posting) I did not mention the additional ban to Ed at the time; one should not expect everyone to be up on everyone's ban, for which I apologize.

I suggest Russavia clean up his grossly disrespectful racist humor behavior.

The interaction ban exempts necessary dispute resolution. I had hoped communicating to Russavia on his talk (as suggested) would be a more effective means for registering and resolving my dispute with his conduct as I have no desire for filing enforcement requests which only create a piling on of all the usual participants and admonishments to all to play nice.

In 100% transparency, I should mention I communicated my concerns privately (Wiki Email) to Russavia, which expression has been acknowledged here, apparently. All Russavia had to do was delete the cartoon strip as inappropriate and our dispute resolution would have been resolved and closed. The offending cartoon:File:Poland can into Wikipedia.jpg is still there. There is no place for this on Wikipedia. VєсrumЬаTALK 01:59, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Russavia grossly (combatively) mischaracterizes the tone of my note to him. I'll be glad to post it, I just don't have access to my personal email at work. Russavia is not my enemy. I only object to Polophobic insults (by anyone) characterizing Eastern Europeans as Wikipedia vandals being touted as humor (and being posted on Wikipedia). Had I posted Russavia's (IMHO cynical) attempt to misdirect attention away from the issue at hand by appearing to make Russia fair game as my user page, I have no doubt a slew of editors would be screaming for my head on a platter for my blatant provocation. Shall I post something like that for my user page for a month or so and see what happens? Aha! Perhaps something about scrubbing Putin squeaky clean and reverting anything that is less than complementary as WP:UNDUE, WP:POV, WP:COATRACK, WP:RECENTISM, etc., while girlie calendars issued in his honor constitute encyclopedia-worthy expressions of fawning popular sentiment in his favor. Yes, I expect that such an act on my part will surely have an immediate positive effect on WP:COLLEGIALITY. There is plenty Russavia can work on while staying away from Eastern Europe broadly interpreted as he always appears to be loaded for bear—nor do I begrudge him that opportunity. I only request Russavia exhibit good sense and good manners—failing that, a permanent topic ban is a last resort. VєсrumЬаTALK 15:05, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
That Russavia was/is working on an article is immaterial. If anything, it's an even worse abuse to use the guise of creating encyclopedic content to insult fellow editors of a nationality with whom one has a proven record of vituperative conflagration. VєсrumЬаTALK 15:23, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Vecrumba[edit]

I feel this request is meritless. More, I am concerned that Russavia put that image on his userpage specifically to get a reaction from one of Wikipedia's Polish editors. I asked Russavia to remove the image - he "xxballs" drawings are political satire and some are mildly humorous, but in my opinion, what is/was on his talkpage is intended as an attack on Polish editors of the English Wikipedia, and cannot really be interpreted any other way. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:14, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

An individual with Russavia's history of explosive nationally-related disputes should really know better than to put such things in prominent places. While I personally find the comics to be generally chuckle-inducing, I also understand that not everyone feels that way about them. Some people find them quite offensive. I find Russavia's actions here to be at best tastelessly tactless, and at worst belligerent baiting. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:34, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Vecrumba sent me an email. I gave poor advice when I suggested very generally that he make his views known somewhere on the wiki. If I'd checked the language of WP:IBAN I would have realized that his only option was to ask an 'administrator to take action against a violation of an interaction ban by the other party...' The cartoon itself doesn't seem to me to violate an interaction ban. I am not inclined to block Vecrumba for posting on Russavia's talk although that was unwise (in retrospect). Russavia is being an optimist if he thinks the Polandball cartoons are not going to be perceived by Polish editors as an attack on them. If we want a policy-compliant way of assessing community reaction to the cartoon, an WP:MFD is one option. In my opinion, the IBAN doesn't prevent Vecrumba from replying in this AE, since the complaint is about him, and a response from him would fall under 'limited and necessary dispute resolution.' EdJohnston (talk) 23:06, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Request is meritless. Plus, Russavia's baiting of Poles seems to have been intended to draw them in. To then complain that they were offended and contacted him is absurd.Malick78 (talk) 14:57, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Vecrumba[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
  • Yeah, I'm not seeing anything actionable; I don't want to repeat everything EdJohnston says above, because that's pretty much my position on this. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:17, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
  • This would have been a clear-cut interaction ban violation, but for EdJohnston's advice to him. I agree that under the particular circumstances, there's no need for action against Vecrumba (though I probably won't call it "meritless"). T. Canens (talk) 13:53, 28 March 2012 (UTC)


Russavia (talk · contribs) blocked 6 months and indefinitely topic banned from Eastern Europe, Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs) blocked 2 weeks. --WGFinley (talk) 23:49, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Russavia[edit]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement 
VolunteerMarek 08:49, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
Russavia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy to be enforced
ARBRB Russavia restricted
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 
  1. [6] WP:IBAN explicitly states that a user under an interaction ban is not allowed to undo editor Y's edits to any page (whether by use of the revert function or by other means).. This is exactly what this is. Note that my edit did not address the user in any way and focused solely on content.
  2. [7] WP:IBAN explicitly states that a user under an interaction ban is not allowed to reply to editor Y in discussions or make reference to or comment on editor Y anywhere on Wikipedia, whether directly or indirectly. The edit in question violates both of these provisions. Note that my edit made no reference to Russavia but only discussed the sources of the article.
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) 

Russavia is a veteran of AE. He has engaged in battleground and nationalist editing for a long time. WP:AE is strewn with Russavia-related requests. After being interaction banned he has violated the interaction ban numerous times:

  1. Blocked on [8] by Timotheus_Canens (talk · contribs)
  2. Warned on [9] by EdJohnston (talk · contribs)
  3. Blocked on [10] by AGK (talk · contribs)

and too many others to list.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint 

Moved to dedicated section by AGK on 20:18, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 


Discussion concerning Russavia[edit]

Statement by Volunteer Marek[edit]

Moved from above by AGK on 20:18, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

As has already been pointed out numerous times before Russavia's behavior in this regard follows a familiar pattern. He makes edits which are either extremely provocative (in this case posting the racist cartoon to his userpage, before it was reverting users he is under an interaction ban with) or which are outright violations of his interaction ban.

At that point, the users who he has an interaction ban with are in a quandary. They can either ignore him - lest they violate the interaction ban themselves - which only seems to encourage him, or they can respond to him and risk the fact that the admins are not discerning enough to tell who is responsible. This is just another variation on a familiar theme.

Given the frequency, and, more importantly, the predictability, with which Russavia violates his interaction ban and keeps kicking over the ants nests, he should be indefinitely banned until he provides adequate promises that he will refrain from continuing in this pattern of behavior. Basically, he should be expected to observe his interaction ban, nothing less or nothing more. In that sense an INDEF BAN would be preventative (rather than punitive).

At the very least, given the perennial trouble he is causing here Russavia needs to be simply topic banned with anything to do with Eastern or Central Europe. He appears simply not to be able to help himself and just has to always cause unneeded trouble. Note that for the most part this topic ban would not stop Russavia from continuing contributing in areas where he is actually productive (aviation, diplomatic relations) - although, honestly, at this point, who cares about that. If you show yourself unable to be ale to follow a simple interaction ban so many times, then you don't deserve the kind of consideration that is warranted by a topic ban vs. an outright indef ban.

Just please, stop this insanity already, it's been going on for way too long.

Additional comments


I don't think that is referring to me as I have not made any edits which could be interpreted as an IBAN violation.VolunteerMarek 20:18, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

@Timothy In response to: Volunteer Marek (commenting on a DYK nomination by someone you are interaction banned with is a bad idea)

As you have yourself noted in the past, and as the ArbCom has itself established, WP:IBAN very clearly states: "the editors are generally allowed to edit the same pages or discussions as long as they avoid each other". My comment at the Polandball/DYK [12] was a technical notification of an ongoing AfD and did not reply, comment or refer to Russavia in any way what so ever, and hence is not in any way an interaction ban violation. VolunteerMarek 08:36, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

@Timothy - 2 In response to: VM, that DYK nomination was started by Russavia. You commented directly under the nomination in opposition to it. This is very far from the acceptable case in which two people participate in different parts of the same discussion without interacting with each other.

Yes it was started by Russavia. But WP:IBAN, yourself in the past, as well as the ArbCom explicitly says "the editors are generally allowed to edit the same pages or discussions as long as they avoid each other", so I don't understand what your point is. Yes, commented under the nomination. Where else was I supposed to comment? Above it? VolunteerMarek 14:02, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

@Timothy - 3 I don't know how else to state this but your comment directly contradicts the wording of WP:IBAN that "the editors are generally allowed to edit the same pages or discussions as long as they avoid each other". It also contradicts previous statements made by the ArbCom as well as previous statements made on this very board (possibly including ones by yourself).

Repeatedly asserting something is true ("it was an IBAN violation because I think it was") does not make it true, especially when it's obviously at odds with what's written and what can be easily checked/verified.

At this point I strongly suggest that you first go to the Wikipedia:Banning policy page and change the wording there - of course you should seek WP:CONSENSUS to do so - and only then start banning people for violating the new wording. But you can't ban people for violating a policy that hasn't yet been written - well, I guess you can, per WP:IAR but then be explicit about that.VolunteerMarek 16:09, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I should also point out, Timothy, that while at one point you proposed a stricter interpretation of IBANS [13], this proposal was never implemented in practice, it was never actually further discussed, and it was directed at Russavia and another editor, not myself. You can't jump the gun and try to implement this proposal by fiat without discussion and in cases where it doesn't apply.

Comment on Malick78's presence here

Malick78 has been following me around Wikipedia, stalking my edits. I have asked him several times to desist and he has been warned my multiple editors to cut it out. He has no business being here. He was not in any way involved or concerned here. His only presence here is his continued hounding of me. [14] [15] [16] [17] (I can easily provide numerous other diffs).

As long as we're talking IBANs, can we please have an IBAN for Malick78 on his interactions with me.

Response to Malick78

Yes, Malick, you came here exactly because someone on my talk page pointed (you) here. - in other words you were WP:CANVASSed here by a banned abusive account. That "someone else" is actually group of IP editors that have been harassing me off and on Wikipedia, including making edits which had to be oversighted as they violated WP:OUT and were purely abusive and disruptive [18]. And you damn well know this. Because you have been stalking and harassing me as well, this creep (or creeps) have latched onto your talk page - after an article's talk page had to be semi-protected to shut up their abuse [19] - as a fellow traveler. YOU have been all to glad to provide them a platform for their continued abuse as your talk page documents. Not only are you willfully providing a venue for banned editor(s) to continue their harassment campaign but you are also acting in concert with him/her/them by showing up here with your bullshit accusations on their instructions.

And your accusations are exactly that. Note that NO ONE else has ever said anything to me about "me stalking you" - this is purely your own invention. Several uninvolved editors HAVE TOLD YOU on the other hand to leave me the fuck alone, to which you responded with some kind of Cartmanesque "I do wat I wan!" - the diffs I provided above show this as well.

If I come across as a bit irate, that's because I am. The harassment campaign by this/these shitheads has been going on for awhile and not a single thing has been done about it. Combine the stress of that with your persistent, odious behavior and, yes, my patience is running a bit thin here.VolunteerMarek 22:25, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Personal attacks detected. Please don't make personal attacks. Thanks. — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 21:18, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
  • I'll take the liberty of responding here, since it'll make more sense to everyone. Hope that's ok. Firstly, I suggest you calm down and don't swear. Secondly, "uninvolved" editors includes Piotrus - your EEML buddy? That's hardly a neutral person. Thirdly, I know little of the supposed activities of the IPs. Sure they left comments on my page recently, and yes, the don't have a high opinion of you. I didn't invite them, btw. They sought me out. But the vast majority of their/his/her posts are about article content. Sorry to burst your bubble. Oh, and lastly, if you are going to start sections complaining about me on this page - please mention me in the edit summary. You have failed to do so twice (you left the summaries blank), while I've mentioned you in all my summaries. Malick78 (talk) 22:41, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment on Skapperod

Skapperod is mistaken. He states which he authored himself - i.e. that I wrote the IBAN wording. This is simply false. I did not author the WP:IBAN "myself". The provisions of the IBAN page were written by User:Sandstein on August 13th. What I did is copy Sandstein's wording and started a separate page so that some matters could be clarifed, however this was redirected back to the general banning policy by T. Canens shortly there after[20].

Since Skapperod is very obviously wrong here, I'd appreciate it if he struck his comment.VolunteerMarek 07:30, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment on Russavia and Moreschi

Very quickly, I feel compelled to address this bit of misrepresentation of Wikipedia-history by Russavia, particularly since it appears that the administrator he references, Moreschi, is no longer active.

Russavia says:

User:Moreschi (...) wrote an essay on what he calls the nationalist plague on Wikipedia. He also made a list of areas of Wikipedia that suffer from edit warring and disruptive editing along nationalist lines. These essays and lists have in the past and are still used presently by editors to deal with nationalist editing on Wikipedia; usually resulting in AE or Arbcom banishment

This makes it sound like Russavia's "Polandball" was merely following in the noble tradition of Moreschi by ... provoking "nationalist" editors who are a plague. Or something. Not sure what the point is exactly. Regardless, this is stuffing words in the mouth of a departed editor/administrator.

Here's the thing. Click on Russavia's contributions. Then click on his block log. What is the first block entry you see on there? That's right, it says:

18:21, 15 September 2008 Moreschi (talk | contribs) blocked Russavia (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 2 weeks (Harassment of User:Biophys)

In other words, it was exactly RUSSAVIA'S behavior (back in 2008) which Moreschi considered a "nationalistic plague" as evidenced by this block (if anyone feels like doing some wiki-archeology they can find all kinds of ol' diffs from AN/I and ol' AE which give more support for that). The way I remember it - and I've been around long enough to remember it - at the time Moreschi actually already wanted to block Russavia indefinitely/long term for ... well, for basically the kind of stuff that Russavia has been up to since 2008.

So it's pretty ironic - hell, it turns things up on their head - for Russavia to be quoting Moreschi here as if somehow the ghost of Moreschi supported Russavia's atrocious behavior, which has been ongoing since 2008. Moreschi blocked Russavia back then (and this was way long before there was any "EEML" or anything), warned him and tried to curtail the kind of behavior on display here.

And we're still stuck in 2008. No wonder Moreschi got fed up and left. VolunteerMarek 04:16, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment on Cailil's comment

I don't really want to play the "involved" part but I do think it pertinent to note that I've had previous interactions and disagreements with User:Cailil, neither one of which was pleasant. Basically I was critical of his use of his administrative tools on two occasions, in both case NOT in regard to myself, but in regard to what I perceived as mistreatment of others. The first one was here [21], concerning Irish-English topics which I never edit. The second one involved User:Lvivske, a user who I frequently disagree with - but who I thought was being treated unfairly by Calil in this particular situation. In fact there I even filed an WP:AE report on Calil [22] (and note that in that report he brought up our previous interactions, which does suggest he has... "a long memory"). Perhaps people who were subject of a AE report filed by a party, shouldn't be commenting in an "uninvolved" fashion on that party.VolunteerMarek 16:54, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Russavia[edit]

I am still going to make a statment, but I am currently dealing with a more important issue at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Unacceptable_homophobic_attacks_by_Youreallycan.2Foff2riorob. If you guys want to institute a 6-month block, go ahead, and I will appeal it later, but at this point in time, a direct homophobic attack against myself is more important to me, than dealing with trolling and baiting (which I have evidence of). I am also quite disappointed that Vecrumba chose to obviously troll with this edit summary - I am glad he is glad that a 6 month block has been proposed, and that this is classed as a successful day at the office, but Vecrumba, that's not a good move on your part, and it certainly takes away from "Russavia the evil troll" that he (and others) is pushing. I hope that admins will be more the wiser after I post an actual statement, if it is still required. Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 07:42, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

  • Please note that User:Nug is under an interaction ban with me. This is a dispute which involves me. Doesn't not involve. His arrival at this dispute, again, and I reinforce, does not involve him, is troublesome, especially as it displays the same behaviour from the EEML days in which they back up each other in disputes, but attempt to have me sanctioned -- even if he has not stated an opinion on me, his turning up here is obviously to get his buddies off the hook, leaving me the only one with sanctions being placed. I can only guess who is going to turn up next. As some admins have suggested a VERY long harsh ban for me, his appearance is totally inappropriate and a breach of this ban. Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 09:51, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Please also note, I am busy collecting diffs and links which I am going to be asking admins to look at, because this is turning to the exact sort of behaviour from EEML days. I will also address the DYK revision as well. But I am still for the most part concentrating on the other matter, but I will post an explanation of article and userpage for uninvolved admins to look at. Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 09:51, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Polandball issues[edit]
G'day mate, me be of Australiaball

For the satirical (and original version) of this statement, refer to User:Russavia/PolandballAE. Given the number of accusations being levelled against me, I unfortunately am required to respond in detail. I am hoping that admins, who have not already made their minds up (perhaps outside AE people are required too) will give this a look at, because these issues do not belong at AE.

So that everyone is reading off the same page, I am not Russian, but Australian and I’ve long been a fan of Polandball meme. Please read the article in its entirety, so that you understand the concept and how the meme works -- failing to understand the concept will not allow you to be better informed. Also refer to my satirical response on my talk page which shows that the meme is not only limited to “Polandball”.

Article explained[edit]

I came across some news articles on the meme on the web, and thought an article is viable because of the nature of the sources (newspapers and cultural magazines). With Google translate, I managed to write most of the article. I did “recruit” help from some native Polish speakers in translating parts that I wasn’t able to understand. These same Polish speakers also found additional sources for me. I would never have even started writing the article if I didn’t believe it was notable -- as we can see many uninvolved editors also agree with this assessment. Uninvolved editors will be explained later.

The reason for my writing the article when I did, is that April’s Fools is coming-up and it is the perfect opportunity for it to appear on the front page. Nothing more-nothing less. That is how I operate as an editor, always have and always will. Anything else relating to the actual article is a content-dispute and it is not actionable at AE unless there are circumstances such as falsifying information or sources (refer Pantherskin)...none of which have been demonstrated. I will present evidence of false (and serious) accusations being made against myself by numerous editors, separately. Other than that, the article is not relevant to this request, as much as people want to make it an issue.

Userpage explained[edit]

For the last week when I've looked at my watchlist, there is a notice prominently at the top which states "The community discussion on image use within the Muhammad article as requested by the Arbitration Committee is now open for discussion." This goes to the core of both the article, and the images on my userpage, that being Wikipedia is not censored. I did replace my userpage with a Polandball cartoon. Have any of you seen The Simpsons episode where Gabbo was introduced? GABBO! GABBO! GABBO! This was done in much the same way, except I did probably err by not simply using File:Polandball.PNG as the image. Perhaps that would have been more effective in introducing this to Wikipedia.

User:Moreschi (who I believe is British, and hence why Britainball is used in the cartoons), wrote an essay on what he calls the nationalist plague on Wikipedia. He also made a list of areas of Wikipedia that suffer from edit warring and disruptive editing along nationalist lines. These essays and lists have in the past and are still used presently by editors to deal with nationalist editing on Wikipedia; usually resulting in AE or Arbcom banishment (hence why Britainball is used to demonstrate this).

The cartoons -- of which there are now two -- File:Poland can into Wikipedia.jpg (Polandball) and File:Russia can into space.jpg (Russiaball), with more to come (perhaps Germanyball will be next) take a look at nationalistic editing on Wikipedia, according to the "Plague" essay, yet in a satirical way in the style of Polandball. One needs to refer to the article to see that "Polandball" (this includes all "countries" by default) plays on national/ethnic megalomania, national complexes and stereotypes, so our cartoons do the same thing.

Don't for a minute think that EEML editors speak for their entire country. The Polish editors who helped me with translations and finding articles, find not only the Polandball meme, but also the cartoons currently on my userpage, as hilarious. When I asked one editor if he knew of Polandball, his response..."I love Polandball". I can also show evidence of one Polish editor who finds the cartoon hilarious. This demonstrates that humour is subjective.

Elen of the Roads (who unfortunately has now resorted to calling me a troll) said that she found them funny, but say "the cartoons are saying that Polish editors on the English Wikipedia are vandals". Unfortunately she hasn't commented on the "Russiaball" cartoon -- most people seem to be focussed on only one, but whilst ignoring the other (and future others). I disagree with this assessment. The Blade below says he finds them funny (the Russian one too Blade?). The cartoons no more says that any national or ethnic groups are vandals, than User:Moreschi/The Plague/Nationalist hotspots says that all editors in those areas are edit warriors and disruptive. I look at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Nagorno-Karabakh_article and one could think that this userpage essay isn't an opinion, but statement saying that all editors in the areas listed are disruptive. The essay doesn't assume good faith, does it? Or does it? Or do people read too much into things? These cartoons are simply satire at work.

Category:Wikipedia humor has over 1,000 pages that contain humour, including “disruptive” AfD nominations, and other things that were they to occur in mainspace, would see people banned. It is the humour that keeps these things on Wikipedia, and this is the same thing. So, some people are upset by it, I’m Aussie, it’s in the Aussie blood to laugh at ourselves and others, and I am not going to change who I am, because a couple of people who have historically been hostile towards me are having their nationalist sensitivities being satired on in user or project space. People simply need to stop taking themselves so seriously all the time (Internet not always serious business) and learn to laugh. Or are we that anally retentive and prudish as a community that we can't laugh at ourselves?

Unfortunately, no-one really bothered to engage with me in honest and open discussion, but rather people had already made up their minds about it and decided I was automatically "guilty". I was not extended good faith by many people. Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 12:37, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Interaction ban breach[edit]

I did revert Radeksz/Volunteer Marek's edit to the AfD, only to avoid the drama. Go figure!

VM is under an interaction ban with me, and to go after a DYK that I was working on, is an interaction ban breach.

During the actual EEML case, VM (previously know as Radeksz) introduced evidence where on how I noted problems with a DYK written by Piotrus (although I was also doing other DYK stuff at the same time).[23] He wrote[24]:

And note that in this particular case Russavia is jumping feet first into as much controversy as he can:

The article Colonies of Poland concerns Courland (now Latvia), Belarus and Ukraine - all successor states of the Soviet Union, never mind Eastern European topics as stated by ArbCom.

The article was created by Piotrus, so Russavia is going straight for somebody who's involved in this case as well.

Then Russavia proceeds to comment on the DYK nomination made by Piotrus, again in a very provocative fashion [376].

Seriously - this guy can't avoid violating his blocks and bans or staying out of trouble for more than a few days even as this case is ongoing!

If VM thought that I was going after Piotrus back in 2009, why would he not think that by doing what he did at the DYK that I created does not fulfill the same type of behaviour that he accused me of then? Or was it just battleground behaviour back then? Or is it battleground behaviour now? It's one of the other -- or is it both? I say both.

I likely should not have reverted his comment at my DYK nomination, but as he says I have predictability (notice how he bolds it) -- he knows that I would likely revert him, so he purposely came after something I was working on in order to provoke me, and to cause me to revert him. He did this at the time of my last block too (after which AE refused to look at this type of behaviour from). This is both trolling me, and baiting me, in order to get a response.

In future, I will not revert these editors, and hope to avoid the drama. I will bring it to the attention of an uninvolved admin for their action.

Also, please look at this edit on the article from Marek. This is clearly disruptive editing on the part of Marek.

Further information on the other issues mentioned will be forthcoming. Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 12:34, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Evidence of co-ordination, trolling, baiting and harassment[edit]

I am currently compiling evidence of co-ordination, trolling, baiting and harassment of myself both onwiki and offwiki which it is pertinent that admins be aware of; for any blocks that are handed out need to take into account these issues. Of course, I am willing to leave it at that for the time being so long as:

  1. there is not a one-sided block of myself
  2. and so long as any block I receive is not draconian as some have suggested.

The interaction ban breaches on the DYK were as bad as one another so an equal block of all editors who have breached the interaction ban would be warranted in this case.

I am happy to leave the other issues lay at the moment (at least as it relates to most EEML editors) and I can address those at a more pertinent time. Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 12:39, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Couple of responses to individual editors[edit]
  • Lothar I don't expect you to AGF in anything I do; so much so, you might want to look at who actually created the cartoons. Twasn't me.
  • Vecrumba I am not taking the bait, because this is not a "Soviet legacy" dispute. Trying to frame it as one might be seen as an escalation, and I am not doing that.
  • Henrik, et al. Xeno was not acting in his official capacity as an Arbitration Committee member---but merely as an individual editor. He didn't engage in discussion with me before removing. He is welcome to discuss with me on a personal level, as an editor just like me. All editors opinions on this project hold equal weight -- for example, I can show you instances where people have reverted JW. A combative setting such as AE is not the place to be discussing such things.
Involved editors and harassment[edit]

Many people are familiar with but was created after TheKohser was banned from Wikipediareview, as a venue for the diehards to hang out and engage in off-wiki personal attacks on WP editors, implied canvassing (posting of links to on-wiki discussions to which they flock to to support each other), and likely outing of editors. Volunteer Marek is a member of both. Other members include banned EricBarbour, Mbz1, amongst others.

Here (archived) is a thread which discusses me in which Volunteer Marek is quite active.

  • User:Jayen466 - is a "global moderator" of - of which Marek is a member, and now has a grudge on myself, because in my capacity as an admin on Commons, I have closed controversial decisions inline with Commons policy. Also has a problem with my calling of a controversial RFC/U of User:Fae of being homophobic (which 30 editors agreed with). Also arrived at the AfD as a result of Marek's obvious canvassing [25]. Blamed me for an unwarranted homophobic attack on myself -- and seemed to imply that "Queer agenda" is used in a positive way (it's not!!!!). Is hardly an outside and neutral observer in this case, but has a vested interest in having me banned, and is obviously here to support his fellow member - deserves a WP:DIGWUREN warning, so that in future an interaction ban can be sought if he continues.
    • I have stricken a part statement, although constant hounding of Fae by you, is still troubling. The rest stands. And the diffs are irrelevant to this AE request which is dealing with interaction bans breaches. Take your dramuh elsewhere. Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 21:47, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
    • Sorry, just one thing Jayen, did you know I chewed AGK's arse out too? Add that one to your list as well. Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 21:52, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston[edit]

I am sorry to see that Russavia, who I have worked with before, and has made a lot of contributions, seems to be losing his perspective. Russavia's magnification of this dispute into the battle of the century is what I find alarming. Criticizing members of Arbcom has a feeling of a last resort about it. Russavia was previously blocked one week for violation of an interaction ban with Vecrumba per this AE request in November 2011. He seems to believe that this justifies draconian enforcement against Vecrumba now, who in this case is just proclaiming that he was offended by the cartoon. The block of Russavia for violating the EEML interaction ban last November involved article changes where Russavia undid four content edits by EEML members on a variety of articles. Vecrumba's attitude in the current dispute is less than perfect but I am not clear on why he would be sanctioned as severely as Russavia. If all parties would back down gracefully I myself would close with no action, but since I gave some advice to Vecrumba that has been mentioned in this case, I won't close this myself. I agree with the views that User:Henrik has expressed in the Result section (at 17:10 on 26 March). EdJohnston (talk) 18:25, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Russavia[edit]

Commentary deleted by AGK, restored in collapsed form to preserve context
Please provide a specific ruling on the unprovoked Polophobic insult that Poles are Wikipedia vandals. In absolutely no way shape manner or form does it fit within the so-called internet whatever-it-is of yet another way to promulgate derisive stereotypes under the guise of "humor" or "jokes". If you walk away, you legitimize racist assaults on all Eastern European editors.

My necessary dispute is the attack on all Polish Wikipedia editors, thereby automatically including members of EEML, that is, dredging up past conflict. One cannot attack a larger group and maintain that is not an attack on a subset of that group. My dispute is not with the article documenting a meme, as is alleged, it is with using said meme, now that an article exists, to in turn create/upload (Greyhood) and post as one's user page (Russavia) a Wikipedia-specific attack. VєсrumЬаTALK 13:11, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

As Russiavia now paints himself to be a victim at my and EEML hands, let me be clear:

  • There is no place on WP for "humor" which attacks identified groups of editors, whether they are gay, Polish, or pink elephants; I don't give a crap about the Polandball article, as to whether it is encyclopedic is a separate discussion, my issue is with the Polophobic attack graphic, there is NOTHING humorous about Russavia's posting of it as his user page given his perennially belligerent attitude (just read the with terminal prejudice deletion edit summaries he provides when removing conduct complaints on his user page).
  • Russavia's suggestion that we should be apparently laughing WITH him at Greyhood's graphic attacking Polish editors pours more salt into the wound and only digs his grave deeper.
  • Russavia is the instigator of bad blood here, no one else is responsible for his reprehensible inability to get along with editors, particularly with whom he disagrees over the Soviet legacy.
If I had complained about a homophobic attack, the righteous would all arise. Instead, I'm made out to be the attacker here because I dispute a clear and unequivocal provocation, that is, Russavia once again lashing out at his editorial "enemies"--and for whatever reason, I am once again the lightning rod for his pathetic wrath even though I never even mentioned him (a couple of times in passing) in the alleged EEML plot, thousands of emails over half out to get Russavia (Alex Bakharev's mischaracterization so gross as to be an outright lie, but convenient for Russavia's victimology particulalry at my hands). I am tired of Russavia's woe is me, I am an innocent being raped yet again by the evil EEML Vecrumba. VєсrumЬаTALK 16:07, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Russavia, there is no "bait." The only arena where you and Polish/Eastern European editors intersect and revert is regarding the Soviet legacy. Your "humor" in posting Greyhood's graphic is no such thing, it is an attack on your editorial opposition. As you are an intelligent and capable—indeed, cooperative (!)—editor outside this arena, I can only find your derisive "humor" to be provocative and malicious and to be precisely the "escalation" you indicate it is not. I have said kind words regarding your positive contributions to WP often and from the start of our relationship, such as it is. (I still recall expressing puzzlement over where things first went wrong, I'm sure I can find that diff if need be.) I've seen nothing in kind in response, only antagonism and vituperations and calumny. It is for others here to decide whether or not to view your conduct as I do. VєсrumЬаTALK 18:10, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

And Greyhood, regarding "And while making it, I had no single thought about actual Polish editors on Wikipedia" in mention of myself, I am gobsmacked. Creating a comic strip—having some artistic experience myself, takes time and planning. Your meticulous editing otherwise leaves me incredulous at the prospect you were so involved in the creative process as to be completely oblivious to the Polophobic insult you were crafting. VєсrumЬаTALK 21:28, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
@Greyhood, I had not seen your so-called "discussion". You misdirect the conversation by contending my issue is with Polandball (and Poles laugh about that, why am I "offended"?) when my issue is with your graphic attacking Polish Wikipedia editors. And why does it apply to editors beyond those of Polish ethnic background? Because the conflict over the Soviet legacy is a well known and long standing one between official Russia and Eastern Europe and the Baltics, mirrored in the conflict between a large portion (not all) of Russophile editors pitted against so called "nationalist" Baltic and Eastern European editors. A conflict which regularly manifests itself through reverts of disputed content. I find your transparent attempts to rationalize your predatory behavior unseemly at best, and symbolic of the partisanship poisoning Wikipedia. You crossed the proverbial line. VєсrumЬаTALK 18:29, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Russavia, with a proverbial 'loose cannon' like you, the list of "parties involved" in the dispute could stretch on quite a while. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:41, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Russavia sees enemies under every sofa cushion - even attacking me on Arbitration pages where I have nothing in particular to do with him or her. Currently I trust the ArbCom members are aware of multiple page postings wherein R, who has engaged in baiting YRC on an on-going basis, has gotten him blocked for what is "homophobic attacks" or the like.

While I recognize that R is an admin on Commons, that does not mean he or she has any privileges on WP proper at all, and the iterated behaviour of baiting others is, per ArbCom, actionable by ArbCom or any admin - edit comments such as homophobic attacks at this point are more important to deal with -- and a quick note on trolling)[26], repeated accusations of people being on WP pages because of CANVASS violations [27] jayen466 is not credible -- canvassing is occurring at, [28] requesting a 1 week block to match my last interaction ban block), [29] threatening Herostratus with If you repeat such things about editors again, I'll report you myself and ask for a block, etc.

(sticking to only a short period of time as there are way too many examples of this in the contribution log - other edit summaries warning to DC to watch step given that there is an ANI discussion considering community banning him , explaining, exactly why this is homophobic harrassment), collect needs to do the honourable thing here and stop claiming uninvolvement in issues he is knee deep in) ([30] which was a clear and nitable violation of ArbCom editing rules in itself) , no coren, but everytime you masturbate, god kills a kitten.....I was personally responsible for the death of 10 kittens alone was a good day :)), Did someone contact you about it? Yes or no? You can answer that.) , no longer in my userpage -- is now in main space -- haters hate elsewhere pls) , ad nauseam.

I iterate my post some time back:

Russavia has done her best to make those who were willing to give her leeway (such as I) rethink that position. I have always spoken against Draconian solutions, but Russavia has operated on the misapprehension that all who do not back her are her enemy (sigh). In the case at hand, "blocks all around" would reward her behaviour, which I fear is unwise. The iterated debate system of saying that one will respond at a future date, or that one is "retired" for some small period of time, especially when such a responses is not then made, is also a problem. Collect (talk) 19:44, 26 October 2011 (UTC) Collect (talk) 12:52, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
WRT not bringing in "everything under the sun" - Russavia has opened the door wide with "Evidence of co-ordination, trolling, baiting and harassment. and I suggest that if she or he has opened that door, that it not be closed. Further that discussion Wikipedia_talk:Banning_policy#IBAN_wording on the actual wording of the iBan (tm Apple) does not comport with an opinion that Vecrumba violated it as written and understood. In short - boomerang time with the latest shots fired by Russavia. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:11, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Block 3 months, require essay "100 Contributions of Poland to the world": The user needs to intensely focus on the reverse of writing those articles which were wp:Attack pages or wp:NPA "national attacks" against Poland or other people. By requesting a 100-topic essay (as a talk-page section), the user could demonstrate 3-month research and focus on the positive contributions of people from Poland (Frederick Chopin, Marie Curie, Wiktor Kemula, Leopold Infeld re Einstein, etc.). The attention, diversity and balance among the 100 topics would indicate the seriousness of studying the nation's culture, in a positive manner, rather than creating "Polandball" (AfD) with talk of "focusing on Polish megalomania" (or similar insults). -Wikid77 (talk) 15:52, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Tim, I'm concerned that you're making an overly broad reading of WP:IBAN. Volunteer Marek's comment at the DYK was informative and didn't comment on or reply to Russavia. Marek has been bold and updated WP:IBAN to reflect your point of view, but I believe his comment was within a reasonable good-faith interpretation of WP:IBAN as it read at that time. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 18:08, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Agree with Tim. A DYK filed by one party means that ANY comment opposing it by the other is by definition against the party that filed it. VM wanted to scupper Russavia's DYK - hence mentioned the AFD. He knew what he was doing, and broke the spirit of the rules of the ban. Any complaint about wording is just an attempt to game the system, it seems to me. Malick78 (talk) 21:04, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Oh, and why are we just referring to the first DYK nom? VM makes a host of comments at the AFD trying to get the Russavia-started page deleted. He also added a link to the article mentioning a failed Russian space mission (to make a point, since one of the phrases of the meme is about Poland never having entered the space race). It's both petty and confrontational. And in defiance of the interaction ban surely.Malick78 (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
  • If those two edits are all you have, that's a pretty piss-poor "stalking" case. More like a cursory glance at your Special:Contributions page one evening. User contributions are public, and there is no restriction on people looking at them and editing to the same pages. You're just coming here to gripe. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:14, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Not griping, just defending myself. As to "looking at" my contributions, he's welcome to do so - but not to then complain that he's being stalked.Malick78 (talk) 22:32, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
  • "Stalking" implies something sustained. If he had been following your every move since 9 February, then you'd have something to say here. 2 edits made over a month an a half ago that you "just noticed" a few days ago don't really present anything convincing. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:53, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
  • 3 month topic ban on Poland, Fucking, arses, cock rings and chickens, public masturbation etc. - There's something untoward in at 07:42, 28 March 2012 (UTC) claiming here the need to defend oneself from the outburst of YouReallyCan/Off2rioRob who was baited (very easily and successfully) with Russavia's boast of getting Fucking, Austria onto the DYK front page, ....and then at 10:21, 24, 28, 28 March 2012 edits and edit summaries on Template:Did you know nominations/Zhirinovsky's ass ‎ (we really have grown into a community of prudes -- mericuuuuh....fuck yeah....we're gonna censor your fucking wikipedia, mericuuuuh fuck yeah) 10:24, 28 March 2012 (Fucking was on the front page at DYK too you know ;)) 10:21, (an arse is an arse, an ass is an ass, a fanny is a fanny, a fanny is a...fill in the blank...) ......repeating the same juvenile boast of getting Fucking onto WP's shopwindow as caused the explosion that delightedly got a dinosaur editor blocked. (and lest I be a prude too, for the record my own attention was canvassed by Russavia in gaming DYK and RM and making edits that would mislead non-Russian knowing editors to believe that "ass" was innocent in Russian) In ictu oculi (talk) 01:47, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
    • Agree with In ictu oculi, though I'd make it 6. Make no mistake: Russavia is the source of all the dramah here, and engineered it – knowingly and intentionally. --JN466 18:39, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
  • A couple of things, Russavia. First of all, if you check the nearly 30 editors who endorsed your view in the Fæ RfC, you will find my name among them, at number 5.
  • Secondly, the reason I am here is comments like these. The first one of these is absolutely appalling, and I am still absolutely amazed that Jimbo let this kind of comment stand on his talk page without comment. It is that post, Russavia, that is the reason why I am here. You are an embarrassment to this project until you have the good sense to apologise to Natasha. --JN466 21:07, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Comments by Lothar von Richthofen[edit]

Russavia's attempts to slither away from scrutiny of the Polandball-userpage-debacle are pathetic. Maybe some editors need to "lighten up", maybe not. But anyone who buys the "only trying to introduce the meme here" line is gullible beyond belief. A comic depicting Polish Wikipedians as shit-scrubbing vandals would raise eyebrows anywhere, but when it is plastered across the userpage of an editor well-known for explosive conflicts with editors from Poland and Eastern Europe, it cannot be interpreted as anything but malicious. The last shred of credibility that the "I was only having fun, fellas!" defence had was vapourised by R's testy reversion of Xeno's removal of the comic. Russavia was the one "trolling" and "baiting" here. The comic alone should be viewed as an IBAN violation. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:34, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Russavia, even if I believed for a second that you came here to "teach the world to laugh", I'd still say that you shouldn't. Your past history with regards to all things Eastern Europe (incl. Poland) precludes your doing so. You are too controversial already; making malicious "satire" directed at Polish Wikipedians is the no-no of no-nos for you. It's best to leave these things to people with cleaner hands, and I am sure that you do know that, no matter how dumb you play. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:01, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
I DGAF if you created the cartoon or not; it is not central to the point I am making. More relevant is the fact that you plastered a giant image of it across your userpage. Whether or not Xeno was acting as an arb in removing is another red herring. You know that he is an arb. Yes, as editors we are all the same, but that does not change the fact that some editors have been elected to positions of higher responsibility. Arbs act in dispute situations. His remark "This is simply not collegial, please don't display this here" is reasonably interpretable as indicating intervention in such a situation—maybe not formally, but certainly informally. Combined with your childish, combative "do not touch my userpage thank you" edit summary, your reversion becomes even more WP:POINTy. Your cartoon-related antics are inexcusable baiting, your attempts to weasel out of responsibility notwithstanding. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:52, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

@TC: VM would not have interacted with Russavia if not for the cartoon incident, which took place before the AfD comment and the DYK comment. Pretty much everyone sees that Russavia emblazoned the cartoon across his userpage in a malicious trolling/baiting attempt. VM, a Polish editor, swallowed the bait. While I don't like to point fingers, Russavia did instigate this one. That should at least be a mitigating factor for any consideration of sanctions for VM (though I am inclined to see any discussion relating to that provocateurish comic as potentially falling under dispute resolution). ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 11:57, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

@Tim: I maintain that Russavia's use of the cartoon is the central point of this conflict; without it, there would have been no supposed IBAN violation (if that is what you have your mind set on calling it) on the part of VM. In my view, Russavia attempted to bait his "enemies" into action against him, knowing full well that such a display would rile a fair number of them up. VM sprung this trap, and this "IBAN violation" is as "tainted" as Russavia's old EEML-related blocks. If VM is to be sanctioned, it should reflect this mitigating factor, and any block handed to him should be vastly shorter than one handed to Russavia. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 04:10, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

@Greyhood: You talk awfully much about Vecrumba in your statement. Do note, however, that he is neither "defendant" nor "plaintiff" in this case, and that his participation here has been minimal. You make precisely one mention of VM, who is a main figure in this dispute (and also Polish). I would advise you to stay on topic.
Re all of your points about humour and satire: See my replies to Russavia above. The fact that the individual in question has such a long history of conflict in national disputes means that this is not "getting offended at every next thing". If I were to be involved in long-standing and bitter animosity with a redhead that had gone on across years and spilled over onto every noticeboard known to en-wiki, and then one day turn around and put up a 1000px image saying that "gingers have no souls". On the userpage of another editor who was not involved in such disputes, it would be just considered in poor taste. But on my page, there is no real way that that can reasonably be considered innocuous.
Re "nothing blatantly and objectively wrong": This is an absurd claim. Satire is not "objective" to begin with, and "blatantness" all depends on the individual. Multiple administrators have voiced strong concerns in this thread about Russavia's use of the cartoon, so I don't think that it is so clear-cut as you are spinning it to be.
Re harassment: The homophobia-related harassment (which is real) has not been much a part of this case, so that's not really relevant. WF has also not played much of a role; only JN can be argued as being directed here from that (unless I missed someone).
Re "people baiting Russavia here": I take offence to this. You need to learn that making comments against a user in an arbitration request is not necessarily baiting. By your loose definition of the term, I could easily make the claim that you are baiting Vecrumba—so much space in your statement devoted to such a minor party in the dispute does not look good.
Re "old or recent opponents": What, you think AE is where uninvolved users with no prior knowledge of the dispute come to solve everything? Puh-leeze. That's unreasonable on so many levels. A fair number of uninvolved admins have, however, commented here. Their view of R's antics is generally less than favourable.
Re "if these creations are disputable": I have already mostly addressed this above, but I will give this special clarification: the cartoons per se are not the centre of this dispute. Russavia's use of a particular one in XXL size on his userpage—reverting over an arbitrator who removed it and told him sternly and informally that it was not acceptable—is. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:50, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Hop off, Greyhood. The YRC affair is tangential to this and you know it. Stop wasting our time. SG's unblock was within reasonable administrative capacity, and while I personally disagree with it, I also understand that whining about it is useless. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:25, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Nope, sorry. The YRC and Russavia cases are not half as similar as you are spinning them to be. YRC's attack was a single comment made in a heated discussion where Russavia was behaving in his usual provocateurish manner, which was redacted after he was warned. Russavia's attack, however, was completely unprovoked. He replaced his entire userpage with a giant image of an inflammatory cartoon dealing with a nationality that he has had numerous conflicts with in the past. A member of the Arbitration Committee came along and reverted this change, saying "This is simply not collegial, please don't display this here". Russavia had a choice here; his course of action from this point reflects his bad-faithed intentions. He could have left the reversion sit, maybe coupled with an apology along the lines of "Ah, you're right. That was stupid of me! I should have known better! My sincerest apologies if I offended anyone!" But he did not do that. Instead, he reverted back to the offensive cartoon version with the infantile, flippant edit summary of "do not touch my userpage thank you". All ability to reasonably assume good faith on his part in this incident—which is the root cause of all the dramuh on this thread—was shot straight to hell then and there. The fact that Xeno was not acting in an official capacity doesn't change anything. All that means is that the revert is per se not actionable. It does not mean that the revert is irrelevant, though—it demonstrates strongly that Russavia's usage of your cartoon on his userpage was not in good faith. If an arb needs to be acting in an "official capacity" for you to even heed what they say in a user dispute situation, you're WP:GAMING the system.
I know you are probably feeling a bit guilty that you provided your friend with the shotgun that he used to shoot his WP:FOOT into oblivion, but his actions aren't really defencible. If the DYK revert was the only thing in the dispute, I could see him getting off, no harm done. But that really is just a bit of icing on the sanctions-cake that he baked for himself by using that cartoon as he did, deliberately provoking editors whom he has a history of conflict with and setting off this entire dispute. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:22, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

IBAN wording relevancy[edit]

VM was prohibited from interaction with R not per IBAN, which he authored himself, but by remedy 11 of the EEML arbcom:

WP:IBAN in turn was written by VM months after this remedy was applied:

The arbcom remedy was to stop eg the pattern of EEML members provoking R into actions that could serve as a basis for a report. It should be read "Leave R alone, widely construed," and there should be no argument here whether a caveat VM himself had introduced on a different page later should be applied here. The argument should focus on whether VM's comments on R's DYK entry were made "for purposes of legitimate and necessary dispute resolution," which is the only caveat granted to VM's remedy by arbcom. Especially, since VM has in the opening post of this AE report emphasized the "predictability" of R's reaction. Skäpperöd (talk) 06:50, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I correct the above per [31] as follows: Sandstein had introduced a similar wording to WP:BAN [32] more than a week before VM wrote IBAN, meaning that there already existed a similar wording on WP:BAN.
However, even if taking Sandstein's version of BAN#IBAN for invoking the above-cited caveat, this invokation is still not justified as it is not IBAN applying here, but the arbcom ruling in WP:EEML, written month before Sandstein's and VM's IBAN introduction of said caveat to IBAN. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:47, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Greyhood[edit]

  • As the sole author of the comic, which surprisingly for me became a part of so much controversy, I'm more involved to this issue than some users here, so I'd like to make a statement in a separate section.
  • In this discussion I've already answered Vecrumba about his claim that this cartoon "can insult.. all Eastern Europeans by extension". I've intended to write a special statement for AE from scratch, but for the lack of time I'll cite some of my explanations given to Vecrumba:
How does "Baltic heritage" is relevant here at all? As for the Eastern European heritage - that's obviously too broad a thing (that may include Russia and South Slavs) and it is extremely strange to claim that anything here "can insult.. all Eastern Europeans by extension". As for the Polish heritage, please note that Poles reacted to this cartoon in much more calm way and some even did like it - apparently they are simply better aware of the Polandball meme and find it not wise to angrily react at the humor involving national stereotypes.
The cartoon was created by me alone and I did not consult with Russavia while making it. And while making it, I had no single thought about actual Polish editors on Wikipedia. I simply had a task to create a cartoon illustrating the meme, but also to make something new and not entirely repeating the scenarios of the existing Polandball cartoons. Wikipedia humor was an obvious idea - and then Polandball just assumed its typical role, a character and a persona which one would be very wrong (and lacking a sense of humor and irony) to consider the same thing as the Polish nation or particular Polish editors.
Finally, really strange to hear these complaints from you, who apparently liked Putin on the Ritz. Even more strange was to read your suggestion that if you started mocking Putin on your userpage, the Russians would rush to complain about it. Not really - firstly, I must admit a part of Russians really do not like Putin, and second ly, as far as I know, Russians, with many of their faults, at least tend to have a well developed sense of irony. The same goes for the Russophile editors (though this term is not entirely correct on my part) - note that Russavia not only created Putin on the Ritz, but voted keep for this much more mocking satire on Putin. At the same time I supported keeping Putin on the Ritz and have no particular objections against Putin in bra too. Valid satire is valid, and no point censoring it - this is not the same as adding incorrect or undue information to the articles.
  • It seems for me that the problem is about the fact, that some people accept satire about some subjects but yet oppose satire about other, not very different subjects. I agree, of course, that humor and satire must be treated carefully and used in appropriate contexts. But for me it is also obvious that different people have different sense of humor and different view of the world. There are multiple articles and userpages on Wikipedia with which contents I disagree with or even could have got offended with, if not for the habit of not getting offended at every next thing which I'm not comfortable with. I could not understand, or rather, I could not approve that some editors plunge into attacking other users with different views and with different understanding of what is allowed and what is not, without attempts at constructive discussion first. Especially I could not approve that when the issue in question is just humor. Of all the admins involved here, only Elen of the Roads attempted such discussion with Russavia on his talk, and that discussion did not result in conclusive demonstration of why the usage of the meme was not appropriate.
  • The situation was complicated by the fact that Vecrumba, while under i-ban with Russavia, entered his talk page, seeking to get offended by something he had no relation to. Then the situation was further complicated by i-bans between Russavia and Marek.
  • Then there is a massive on-wiki harassment of Russavia by the users having grudges against him because of his recent opposition to homophobic attacks on user Fae and because of other reasons, with some of such users apparently being also users of Wikipediaforum and coming from a thread there (not to mention the offensive stuff directed at Russavia on that forum itself). That, with the fact that most people baiting Russavia here and at the other recent related discussions are his old or recent opponents, is most worrying.
  • I won't claim that Russavia (or myself in that part of the story where I was involved) acted always correctly. Of course anyone could be criticized and anyone's actions and views could be challenged. But the fact that many other users have found the image and the Polandball article OK (or at least not objected to them while been aware of them) shows that there was nothing blatantly and objectively wrong about these creations (the meme subjects are not prohibited, nor is satire - and the opposition to both things is a great deal subjective). If these creations are disputable, these disputes could have been resolved and should have been resolved in correct way (there are AfD procedures), without breaching the i-bans and a massive harassment including off-wiki. GreyHood Talk 13:53, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Is Salvio an uninvolved admin here?[edit]
  • @Salvio giuliano, I've noticed that recently you have unblocked Youreallycan who was reported by Russavia for perceived homophobic attacks and direct incivility. And you did it in rather controversial way judging by the linked discussion. While anyone's opinion on the matter is appreciated, are you really an uninvolved admin here? GreyHood Talk 18:35, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
  • @Salvio giuliano, I specifically used such phrasing as "perceived homophobic attacks" since it is not for me to determine whether it was homophobic or not. Unfortunately your response only strengthened my doubts whether your taking part in judging this request is truly neutral and uninvolved. Because it's not been determined that Russavia made any attack at all either; and I can also say that to repeat such an allegation over and over again will make it true. Basically we have a very similar situations with both users: both say that they have not intended homophobic/nationalistic attack, yet both acknowledge that they acted wrong when it comes to the rest of the accusations (see Russavia's words in his statement above - "I likely should not have reverted his comment at my DYK nomination" - and Russavia's direct acknowledgement he made to Henrik - "I acknowledge I was wrong to have reverted Marek"), both users promise to avoid such behaviour in future - you've seen Youreallycan's promise and should have seen Russavia's promise above to report any future i-ban breaches to an uninvolved admin instead of trying to deal with such breaches on his own (see also Russavia's request to Edjohnston).
So what we have on the plate: despite these similarities in one case you quickly support the user in his claim he did not intended attack, and in the other case you say that the action was "contentiuous" and "trolling". In one case you unblock the user after he acknowledged part of the guilt and promised not to repeat it, and in the case of the other user you ignore the acknowledgements and promises and propose a "longish block". Please, explain me how it is not double standards? This is further complicated by the fact that 1) Russavia reported Youreallycan and 2) you supported Youreallycan and unblocked him, doing that in the face of the opposition to such move and without having support from the blocking admin and even with winking and joking to the unblocked person and 3) you came here and propose stronger sanctions on Russavia. Could you explain to me how it is not taking sides?
Sorry, Salvio giuliano, but I kindly ask you either not to take part in judging this case here, or at least to apply similar standards in similar cases. That means not to apparently suggest that Russavia's revert of VM aggravates his guilt but to take into account Russavia's acknowledgement that he was wrong about that and his promise to avoid such behaviour in future. GreyHood Talk 23:59, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
@Lothar von Richthofen. My point is not about whether SG's unblock was correct or not per se. In fact for me the less users are blocked the better. What I care about is not applying double standards and admins being neutral. GreyHood Talk 00:38, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
@Lothar von Richthofen (and @Salvio giuliano since you prefer Lothar to answer for you). You have ignored my point on double standards and on taking sides and all the named similarities, focusing on just one aspect of the situation. Moreover, apparently you have misrepresented certain facts in describing the situation.
  • You write: "YRC's attack was a single comment made in a heated discussion where Russavia was behaving in his usual provocateurish manner, which was redacted after he was warned". Here is the part of discussion from the first to the last comment made by user Youreallycan on that page.
    • No any Russavia's comment in that part of the dialogue was later removed or redacted (I hope I've checked it allright, the discussion is rather complex) and Russavia made no any incivil or attacking statement in his dialogue with Youreallycan.
    • The mention of the village in Austria (which Russavia in the past had DYKed) was in no way "provocateurish manner", but a quite relevant example of another humorous DYK nomination.
    • YRC has made not "a single comment" but several comments there containing personal attacks ("indefinitely block User:Russavia", "You are a constant NPOV violator - you and anyone who is enabling or supporting you such as User:Greyhood should be thrown out of the project immediately - and good riddance to you, you and your contributions are no better than a disruptive troll." and his last highly incivil statement "Was it your queer agenda?.. " [I won't cite the rest of incivility here]). As you see he was attacking me as well and calling all Russavia's contributions (and perhaps mine too) disruption and trolling. Was such a strong reaction to a meme article - with memes being OK as a Wikipaedia subject - really provoked?
    • YRC was warned by me against making personal attacks but ignored it. Which again makes the situation similar with Russavia's, who however (unlike my direct link to WP:NPA) has not been directly warned by admins (some pretty light and joking discussion with Elen of the Roads hardly counts for a direct warning, and the action of Xeno acting in his own capacity, changing other user's page and ignoring the aformentioned discussion with phrasing "This is simply not collegial, please don't display this here" is of course polite and nice but not exactly direct warning and direct link to the policy).
    • YRC's final incivil comment's wording suggested that he made a difference between "queer agenda" and "[see the village in Austria ] agenda". Putting these too terms in a row really raises some questions about the nature of YRC's attack.
    • Another similarity - both YRC and Russavia apparently have a history of blocks and involvement in their respective kind of disputes. Yet in one case Salvio giuliano supports YRC ("I don't buy for a second that those messages contain homophobic attacks") ignoring the background and in face of opposition and no clear consensus at ANI and in other case readily supports the accusation that in Russavia's case the background is relevant and that there was a nationalistic or personal attack.
  • Well, in fact it is quite enough to undermine the uninvolvedness of Salvio here that he unblocked (in a controversial way) a user who had attacked Russavia and had been reported by Russavia and then came here proposing tougher sanctions on Russavia. But on top of that there are all these double standards and favouring the acknowledgement of guilt in one case and turning blind eye to the acknowledgement of guilt in the other case. And on top of the top of that we see rather cordial relations between Salvio and Youreallycan: Youreallycan: Thank you very much nb--- I won.t let you down - Salvio: I'll hold you to that, Rob. I'm taking a risk here, I hope this doesn't come back to bite me in the bum. Face-wink.svg. This has already been frowned upon at ANI along with the fact that the unblock was not discussed with the blocking admin. OK suppose the unblock still was "within reasonable administrative capacity" (though even you Lothar do not agree with the action) - but by coming here to judge the user whose request resulted in Youreallycan's block and by demonstrating some double standards Salvio giuliano has taken too many risks it seems, and has gone beyond a "reasonable administrative capacity". All that said, I again kindly ask Salvio giuliano to avoid participation in this case. Or alternatively, I ask other admins to confirm that Salvio giuliano is uninvolved and ask Salvio giuliano to answer my points personally, without leaving that to Lothar von Richthofen.

@Salvio giuliano Youreallycan's actions are relevant here only because your involvement is relevant here, and the question is relevant whether this involvement is uninvolved. I have no problem with your actions in the case with Youreallycan per se. I want both Youreallycan and Russavia not to be blocked and to continue productive contributions. But the combination of your actions and words in the two cases of both Youreallycan and Russavia made me to raise all these questions, and your refusal to proper answer them is pretty telling. Of course I disagree with your involvement here with all the named circumstances, but note that I have no problem, for example, with the involvement of Henrik, who also proposed pretty tough sanctions here. GreyHood Talk 22:31, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Too many Russavia's opponents involved[edit]
  • One particular reason why I'm so insisting on uninvolvedness is a huge amount of involvedness of Russavia's old and not so old opponents in the relevant recent discussions. See again the part of discussion involving Youreallycan on the AfD. Basically almost all of the opposition and deletion votes there are from Russavia's former opponents in the other discussions and often major disputes, with quite a number of them changing their usernames. Surprisingly to me, even Biophys/Hodja Nasreddin turned up there under a new (in fact as old as 2009) account My very best wishes with apparently undeclared continuity (and involving into the old type of disputes despite this strange attempt of a clean start). Personally I have no problems with clean starts, but this being a part of a large wave of Russavia opponents coming into many discussions recently, and apparently some coming from the threads at Wikipediaforum, is all most worrying.
  • So I kindly ask anyone making judgements here to make sure that the decision is taken fair without been the result of endorsement by involved admins and without been influenced by the users from the site where Russavia is being harassed.
  • I've striken part of my comment on My very best wishes, he has clarified that it was declared - nevertheless it all has been quite confusing with him participating under an unknown name in the same disputes. GreyHood Talk 21:57, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Russavia's revert of Xeno[edit]
  • @ Lothar von Richthofen as for your point that Russavia has not acknowledged the main part of the accusation - well, that was exactly what Youreallycan did if I am not mistaken. While Russavia recognized he was wrong reverting Marek, and Youreallycan recognized he was incivil, and both promised not to repeat the behaviour.
  • Also please note the that Russavia reverted Xeno in a very special context:
    • It was after a a discussion with Elen of the Roads, which discussion (while questioning Russavia's idea of a user page) didn't exactly show that he was "stupid" and "should have known better". It was all rather light and joking, with some other users coming there and apparently finding no problem.
    • Xeno not only acted in his own capacity (which perhaps is not that important really), but reverted the other user's page without either a pre-discussion on talk or a direct 100% clear warning in the edit summary. Personally I very much appreciate Xeno for being polite but perhaps it would be better if the action was less confusing.
    • Russavia changed his userpage few hours after the revert of Xeno.
    • Russavia did his best to show that it was all humor and that he never meant to attack anyone. GreyHood Talk 21:29, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

@AGK I fully support Lothar's restoration of all comments here. The reasonable solution to avoid a lengthy discussion here was to follow T. Canens suggestion and discuss i-bans issues here while other issues in a separate thread if needed. But in case the solution would be not about i-bans only, all this material is strongly relevant here, and perhaps I'd even suggest to de-collapse some of the comments. GreyHood Talk 21:36, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Too much drama![edit]

WP:TEA is certainly called for here, and maybe some collective light bulb turning as well. — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 21:05, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I really don't think you have half a clue as to what is going on here. Your suggestion is good-faithed, but displays nothing short of ignorance of the history and nature of the dispute. Thank you for commenting, but it's unnecessary and really kind of obnoxious. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:44, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Petri Krohn[edit]

What on earth is going on here? A lynch mob?

This case is – or it should be – about breaking an interaction ban, nothing else. The way I see it several WP:EEML participants have broken the interaction ban imposed on them and unduly interacted with Russavia. Yes, Russavia had an agenda, he created a new article and intended to have it appear in the DYK section of the front page on April fools day on April 1. Any action that interfered with this process I consider banned interaction, whether it happened on Wikipedia or on some other external forum. This includes contacting administrators by email, making comments on Russavia's talk page, canvassing on external forums for participation on the DYK discussion, commenting on the DYK nomination, commenting in the AfD discussion, or commenting in the deletion discussion on Commons on an image that was used in the article.

Given the time constraints Russavia could not have taken the normal course of action for cases of IBAN violation, like reporting here. The fact is that Russavia's changes of getting the DYK approved vanished the moment the banned parties started interfering in the discussions. Even if their comments would have eventually been removed, the drama they caused would have produced enough negative publicity to ruin any change of success.

Several people in their comments here have made serious accusations against Russavia claiming that the article he produced is racist hate speech targeted at Poland. This is not the forum for this discussion; this is the arbitration enforcement page. The request posted here is about violating IBAN. Russavia is not under any sanctions for hate speech, nor is he banned from articles about Poland.

We must also note, that by nominating the article for DYK Russavia has exposed it to extensive public scrutiny. The article is now also discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Polandball. The issue there seems to be notability and reliable sources, not hate speech. If these hate speech accusations were true, then most likely the article would have been speedily deleted by now. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:14, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Response to Sandstein[edit]

I find it unacceptable that you both close the Polandball deletion discussion and come here to make an attack against Russavia. It is OK for you to have your opinion about Russavia and it is OK for you to express it here. However, if that is your opinion about Russavia, you should have stayed away from the AfD and let someone else handle it – you cannot be be a neutral and impartial administrator in this case. Furthermore, you are using your decision to delete as an argument against Russavia. What you are saying about the article does not reflect what was found in the discussion, at least not if you filter out the canvassing and banned interaction – as you correctly did in your closing argument there. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:18, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Addendum by Collect[edit]

Not a lynch mob by a mile - I would note mass posting to arbs in some sort of effort to make Fae the issue here :harassment of editors" when the apparent problem here is use of noticeboards to complain about everyone else. :(. When trying to keep a low profile, posting to every arb in an accusatory tone is unlikely to help a lot. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:30, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

VM's block record[edit]

@WGFinley: Your statement that VM's last 3 blocks have been for interaction ban violations is not correct. Here is a breakdown of the relevant block record, earliest of the 3 to most recent:

So we have 2, or probably actually 1-1/2 interaction-ban-blocks for VM. I shall not comment further (I did promise not to.... :/) other than to note that your indefinite, exception-less topic ban proposal is draconian, to say the least, and might as well be an indef-block for the both of them. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 05:55, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

@WGFinley: I lied, I am going to put in another comment. Looking at the chronology, it seems more than likely that VM "stumbled" into the DYK and AfD in response to Russavia plastering the cartoon across his userpage (06:42, 24 March 2012‎) and then linking the cartoon on his userpage to the article (01:41, 26 March 2012‎) in what is generally agreed here to be a pretty clear baiting attempt. That is the central provocation that started this whole ruckus. Note also that R only removed the offending giant-sized cartoon (08:00, 26 March 2012) after VM commented at the AfD (05:56, 26 March 2012‎) and the DYK (06:07, 26 March 2012). VM should not have taken the bait, yes. But R shouldn't have even lowered it into the water. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:39, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Also, are you still standing by the incorrect "last three [of VM's blocks] are interaction ban violations" statement? You have neither changed this wording nor responded to my correction. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:43, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

You're misrepresenting the first block, yes, it was for a TBAN but it was regarding interaction with.....wait for it.....Russavia [33]. Also, how would VM know what was on Russavia's page unless he was watching it? Again, the terms of interaction bans are not to preclude them both from commenting on the same article but when they are both very aware they are criticizing the position of the other and it's very clear they're aware the other one is involved that's a violation. This is two years of nonsense, it takes two to tango and VM's last three blocks have all involved Russavia. --WGFinley (talk) 22:41, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Volunteer Marek and Vecrumba[edit]

Commentary deleted by AGK, restored in collapsed form to preserve context

Tim, your interpretation of VM's posting a note[34] as a violation of WP:IBAN is contrary to all earlier understanding of what is permitted after a clarification related to a previous AE report. This understanding was demonstrated by the subsequent participation by those under a mutual iBan including VM in the AfD. To state VM's note to the DYK page is now a violation when participation in an earlier AfD was perfectly okay seems to be rather arbitrary and unfair on VM.

With regard to Vecrumba, the fact there already exists another AE report involving him above[35] to which he was permitted to comment, and noting that this report essentially covers the same contentious area of Polandball as that other report, surely this report can effectively be considered to be an extention of the dispute that Vecrumba was legitimately attempting to resolve above and which you closed with no action. Therefore it is somewhat unfair to now sanction Vercrumba for commenting here while he was permitted to participate in that other concurrent case relating to essentially the same area of dispute, particularly given that it appears that some admins seemed to have continued their discussion relating to that other report here. --Nug (talk) 09:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

It is not at all clear to me whether there is an active interaction ban between VM and Russavia. Looking at the arbcom decision, it says that "The editors sanctioned by name in this decision are prohibited from commenting on or unnecessarily interacting with Russavia (talk · contribs) on any page of Wikipedia, except for purposes of legitimate and necessary dispute resolution." However, the only sanction against Volunteer Marek, then editing as Radeksz, was rescinded nearly two years ago. Given that his interaction ban was premised on his being a sanctioned editor, wouldn't the expunction of the sanction have lifted it? (Even if one were to take the view that there currently is an interaction ban between VM and Russavia, despite VM's sanction having been rescinded, one might argue that VM's commenting on the DYK falls within a grey area.) --JN466 17:46, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

@WGFinley: An indefinite topic ban seems way out of proportion to any remedy proposed for Volunteer Marek by the other administrators, and it was proposed for Russavia by only a single administrator. I understand that you're tired of dealing with problems in this subject area, but please reconsider whether the proposed remedy is appropriate or whether it is merely born of frustration. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 15:55, 3 April 2012 (UTC) I would have posted this below, but my membership in WP:POLAND would have led to accusations that I am somehow involved in this.

Result concerning Russavia[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
  • Wikipedia editing in contentious areas only work when all parties work towards consensus and respect. Some editors are able to respectfully interact with editors with other views. Some are not able to do it. Unfortunately it falls upon us to eject those who can not work in a respectful and collegial manner and abide by both the rules and spirit of Wikipedia from the discussion, lest they poison the discussion for everybody. User:Russavia is a veteran at WP:AE and other conflict resolution venues; by now this user must surely know what we expect from editors. Nationalistic jokes, which quite obviously would provoke a reaction and escalate long running conflict, is not it. henriktalk 17:10, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I see interaction ban violations both ways. Two weeks blocks for each, I'd say. T. Canens (talk) 05:51, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Vecrumba was unwise, but did apparently take advice from an admin (ED Johnstone) before embarking on Russavia's takpage (see above section). Does that offer any mitigation? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:46, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Just so I'm 100% clear, are you referring to Russavia and Volunteer Marek? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:51, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
    Russavia (the undoing is bad), Volunteer Marek (commenting on a DYK nomination by someone you are interaction banned with is a bad idea), and Vecrumba (this thread is nowhere near necessary DR for him). T. Canens (talk) 07:15, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
    If someone wants to make a request against Russavia on matters unrelated to this alleged interaction ban violation, they should start their own thread. This thread is messy enough without people bringing in everything under the sun.

    VM, that DYK nomination was started by Russavia. You commented directly under the nomination in opposition to it. This is very far from the acceptable case in which two people participate in different parts of the same discussion without interacting with each other.

    Unless any uninvolved admin strenuously objects, I'm implementing the two-week blocks in 24 hours, without prejudice to a longer block or other sanction on any of the parties as a result of any future threads. T. Canens (talk) 13:48, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

    I can't think of a way that you could comment in that particular discussion without violating your interaction ban. That there are some cases in which both parties to an interaction ban may participate in the same discussion does not mean that in every discussion both may participate. T. Canens (talk) 14:09, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
I'd usually say two weeks is justified for the interaction ban violation, but note that would be this users 12th block. That, along with the provocative nature of recent contributions, escalation of conflicts, and long term failure to adhere to the collegial and respectful interaction we strive for leads me to think a much longer block would be justified. I suggest 6 months. User:Russavia has made many positive contributions to Wikipedia, but this user needs to start deescalating and defusing situations rather than inflaming them. Or failing that, not be part of the discussions. henriktalk 20:00, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
As it is not clear how much of Russavia's block log was tainted by WP:EEML, the history of blocks prior of that case is of somewhat limited value, in my opinion. If someone starts a different thread about the questionable recent edits, we can work out some additional sanctions there. T. Canens (talk) 13:48, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Much as I hate to say it, I think Tim's solution above is the right one. It does seem like a pretty clear interaction ban violation from all involved, and it's an ongoing issue with them. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:55, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
    User:Vecrumba's post in this section, though now stricken, was a clear violation of the interaction ban. I am less convinced by User:Volunteer Marek's violation; I have to largely echo Malik Shabazz's comments above. But I can't see how User:Russavia's judgement in reverting an arb to restore this version of his user page [36] isn't hugely problematic. He should well know that it would be provocative (not to mention in violation of the above arbitration remedy) and I'd hate to set a precedent that users with interaction bans can lob potshots at the other side as long as it's done in the form of cartoons. But perhaps T.Canens is right in that it would be a matter better discussed as a separate thread, as the original complaint did not seek to address this issue. henriktalk 20:31, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
Upon a second look, I agree with you that Volunteer Marek is much less in the wrong here; I'd be fine with letting him off. As to Vecrumba and Russavia, though, both clearly violated their interaction ban. And I also agree with you about the cartoon Russavia posted (though I confess I had to laugh when I saw it, I also know it's far from helpful). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:39, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
  • My opinion on sanctions is as follows.
    I believe User:Russavia started this thing knowing that Polish editors would respond to it. The cartoon on his userpage was not political satire, it was a specific accusation that Polish Wikipedia editors are disruptive sockmasters. He ought to be sanctioned for that even if it doesn't violate an arbitration decision, as this would be the consequence were it any other editor making any such allegation about any other section of the community, refusing to remove it, and restoring it in the face of removal by one of the Arbitrators.
    I believe User:Vecrumba should not be sanctioned for one post here which he has struck - it was unwise, and probably a technical breach, but it had already been agreed by contributors to the request about him that his comments on Russavia's talkpage should not provoke a sanction, and it does read that he was simply echoing what he had said there.
    User:Volunteer Marek is more problematic, as he did make several comments at the article AFD, as well as at DYK, and the comments do to an extent refer to the editor as well as the content, although they are focused on the content mostly. I cannot see this warranting as serious a sanction as Russavia's actions. None of this would have happened if Russavia had not been trying to engineer it (I honestly cannot believe that Russavia somehow did not anticipate exactly the response he got).

I do also have a concern about the wording of these bans, as there is the possibility that they give an advantage to a first mover on any side, by preventing any further discussion by other parties likely to have an interest. Much more thought on how to address that required though. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:55, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

  • Can I just note that Russavia appears to have asked User:Thehelpfulone to block him for three days [37]. No idea what that's all about - it's not part of this enforcement request. Elen of the Roads (talk) 08:56, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I basically agree with Elen (and with Lothar): Russavia's addition of a – shall we call it contentiuous? – contentious cartoon to his userpage was nothing but trolling, considering his area of interest. I believe he should receive a longish block or, alternatively, an indefinite topic ban from all edits relating to Central and Eastern Europe across all namespaces. I also believe that neither Vecrumba nor Volunteer Marek should be sanctioned and I would strongly oppose the imposition of a block on either of them. Regarding the former, I once again share Elen's opinion, so I'll not repeat it now. Regarding the latter, currently, the relevant policy states the editors are generally allowed to edit the same pages or discussions as long as they avoid each other. It may be unwise to do so, it may even invite drama in certain cases, but the point is that it is allowed and, so, Volunteer Marek should not be sanctioned either. Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:54, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
With one side of the ban being the nominator and an extremely short discussion, I fail to see how being the first to oppose the nomination could count as "avoiding each other". T. Canens (talk) 11:28, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
The point is that they are prohibited from interacting with each other – or from commenting on and interacting with each other –; I fail to see how writing Symbol delete vote.svg Please note that the article is now up at AfD and is very much inappropriate for being featured on Wikipedia's front page. can be construed as a violation of such a restriction: VolunteerMarek was expressing his opinion on the DYK nomination. Also it is worth noting that Russavia immediately undid the edit, which is something I had originally missed. Salvio Let's talk about it! 18:15, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes I'd miss that. Whatever the merits of the original statement (appears currently to be a grey area) undoing it definitely violates the IBAN. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:57, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
He's expressing his opinion on the DYK nomination by Russavia. That counts as interaction in my book. No one is doubting that Russavia's subsequent undo violates the interaction ban. If we are looking at Russavia's conduct with respect to the cartoon (as there does not seem to be much support for the idea of looking at it in a separate thread), I agree that some sort of sanction is appropriate. T. Canens (talk) 02:48, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
I beg to differ: as long as they do not directly interact with each other – and editing the same page is not interacting, even if the page contains a nomination made by the other editor, because commenting on a nomination != commenting on the actions of another person –, there is no technical violation of their IBAN. Due to a brief thread on my talk page, I'm starting to entertain the notion that those edits might have been a violation of the spirit of the restriction, but I have not yet made up my mind on that, so I'll not comment further on it, for the moment.

That said, since there appears to be a consensus that Russavia's actions warrant a sanction, my proposal is to impose a six-month block on him. Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:39, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

  • Reply to Greyhood it's not been determined that Youreallycan attack was homophobic in nature; to repeat such an allegation over and over again will *NOT* added 10:39, 31 March 2012 (UTC) make it true. And it's also appropriate to note that I unblocked him only after he acknowledged he acted inappropriately and promised he'd avoid such behaviour in future. That said, yes, I consider myself entirely uninvolved. Salvio Let's talk about it! 19:01, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
    Follow-up: I originally wanted to reply to your latest message, but, after thinking about it, I chose not to and allow Lothar's response to stand, which, by the way, covers all the bases I would have covered in a far more eloquent manner; the reason is that, in my opinion, Youreallycan's actions and mine in relation to him have nothing to do with this thread and would only divert our attention from the issue at hand. Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:39, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
    This is my last reply on the subject: Youreallycan's actions have nothing to do with this thread; my actions regarding Youreallycan have nothing to do with this thread; I consider myself uninvolved. I'll not comment any further on this, as these attempts to drag Rob's actions into this discussion and to get me to recuse – because you disagree with my opinion – appear mainly intended to derail the discussion. Salvio Let's talk about it! 22:03, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Housekeeping note: As with almost every enforcement request about a nationalist topic area, this thread was being derailed by grossly excessive commentary, which I have removed. I fear we will need to return to our previous discussion about instituting a word limit or complete exclusion on statements by involved editors who are not party to, but comment on, a specific complaint. (Alternatively, we might adopt the practice of closing down the "Comments by others" section in the event it becomes too lengthy.) I collapsed the supplementary remarks in each statement that was retained, because even without the comments by "uninvolved" editors, these sections make the thread very lengthy; again I wonder whether we (meaning the uninvolved administrators) ought to institute a word limit on enforcement requests. I also fixed some formatting issues, like the use of level 8 (or something absurd) headers that are tiny and unreadable. AGK [•] 20:18, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Lothar restored the deleted comments, then collapsed them, and contested that their presence in some form on the page is necessary to follow the threaded discussion about this complaint. Whilst I would have preferred that the comments not have been made in the first place, I accept his point that removing them outright distorts the context of the thread. AGK [•] 21:11, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
  • That's quite enough, Greyhood. Salvio is plainly uninvolved - and I say that as the person who blocked YRC in the first place and who still strongly disagree with Salvio's unblock. T. Canens (talk) 03:17, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Looking at this with fresher eyes I agree with Elen, the editors needing sanction here are Russavia and VolunteerMarek. Vercrumba needs a serious reprimand but I'd leave it at that. While I believe VM's actions require sanction they are far less problematic than Russavia's overall behaviour in this instance.
    Russavia's use of his user page for deliberate political goading is unacceptable. This is on top of his IBan violations become quite serious in my book as they show a clear use of WP as a battleground, and echoing Henrick comments above Russavia is demonstrating clearly that past remedies have not got (and are not getting) the message to him about what is acceptable conduct on WP. This is full ban territory as far as I'm concerned, but if others don't want to go that far I'd settle for at least a 3 month block.
    I disagree with Salvio about VM - this was interaction and demonstrates that they are not avoiding contact which what an interaction ban is about, and agree with Tim that a 2 week block is sufficient for VM--Cailil talk 16:41, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
    • Do you mean full topic ban or full site ban? T. Canens (talk) 18:39, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
      • My preference is a site ban - I don't really see a topic ban or other lesser restriction helping someone who wants to behave in this manner[38], frankly I thinking blocking hasn't got the message across either[39]. So yeah I think it's time to show Russavia the door - that kind of partisan flamebait just aint helpful and demonstrates an utter disregard for every tenet of every one of our interaction and talk space policies--Cailil talk 22:34, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Just weighing in as an uninvolved admin looking at this from 10,000 feet: 2 months off for Russavia would give him enough time to reflect, and prevent this sort of disruption in the meantime. My impression is that he has become perhaps a bit too comfortable in his position as a "valued contributor and insider", and has become less careful and thoughtful in his comments than should be expected. --SB_Johnny | talk 23:33, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
  • What we have here is the showcase for my position that IBANs just don't work. In fact, cases like this, just makes it worse. If people demonstrate they can't get along and can't avoid each other then they just need to be blocked for offending behavior, plain and simple. I agree with Cailil, two week block for VM and one year for Russavia given block history and willful disregard for the IBAN. On another note Russavia was blocked a few days ago but I can't figure out why and I've asked that admin for further info. --WGFinley (talk) 15:17, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Russavia was blocked at his own request. No idea why. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:01, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Hi all. To keep the discussions in one place, I'll respond to your message on my talk page and Elen of the Roads at the same time. Yes, Russavia asked to be blocked so that he would not be tempted to respond and say something stupid, that could ultimately cause more drama than already exists. He's asked me to keep it at that, if you'd like a more length explanation, please ask him directly. The Helpful One 22:34, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
No Helpful, that's more than sufficient, thank you! --WGFinley (talk) 02:53, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • I agree with Wgfinley. Two weeks for VM and one year for Russavia. @Elen running off when the tide turns against you shouldn't be a shield against reprimand. --Guerillero | My Talk 21:15, 2 April 2012 (UTC)


We've had a lot of admins chime in on this one and I've tried to go through each of the responses to try to refactor a consensus here. I will summarize and hopefully we can get this case moving to closure:

  1. WP:ARBRB is listed as the case, it was cited in the previous AE case (which was quite the firestorm as well). It was a violation of this same IBAN.
  2. The issues between these users have stung out for years going back to WP:EEML (of which Volunteer was a part) and WP:ARBRB where Russavia was specifically banned with interacting with parties to the EEML case. Which bring us here.
  3. WP:ARBRB is not subject to WP:AC/DS although that case is the source of this interaction ban. I think that needs to be cleaned up.
  4. The dispute between these two has gone on for years and both are near constant visitors to AE. I was going through closed AE reports for a couple of hours. In the last two cases it was pointed out the IBAN was not working.
  5. There is clear admin consensus that action is needed in this case, the only dispute appears to be length.

The topics of this dispute are governed by discretionary sanctions for WP:DIGWUREN and therefore I believe action should be taken under WP:DIGWUREN as follows:

  • Russavia (talk · contribs) and Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs) are blocked from Eastern Europe, broadly construed, indefinitely as these disputes have raged for two years and show no sign of abating.
  • Volunteer Marek, given prior blocks, the last three of which are interaction ban violations, is blocked for 30 days.
  • Russavia, given prior blocks, the last three of which are interaction ban violations and the inappropriate revert of someone he is banned from interacting with, is blocked for 6 months.

I believe this reduces the time for some of those who thought it should be less for Russavia and increased the time given review of Volunteer Marek's block history being pretty similar. Unless there are serious objections or recommendations I would like to implement in 48 hours we we can all move along. --WGFinley (talk) 04:55, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

  • I fully agree wrt the sanctions you propose to impose on Russavia; they are certainly reasonable, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not so sure wrt Volunteer Marek's however. Honestly, I admit I'm still not sure that he did in fact violate his topic ban – currently, the issue is being discussed on my talk page and on WT:BAN and probably also somewhere else I'm not aware of and there seems to be no consensus as to whether commenting on a DYK nomination can be construed as an IBAN violation, though many of the editors who are commenting there are the same who have commented here and so a. the sample probably isn't representative of the opinions of the community and b. their opinions may be influenced by the side they have taken in this dispute –; I recognise, however, that in the previous section, my hesitancy isn't shared by many admins and that the rough consensus appears to be that Volunteer Marek did in fact violate his restriction. I acknowledge and accept this consensus. Considering, however, that a. Volunteer Marek's edits were not disruptive and b. this is somewhat a grey area, I'd say that a monthlong block and an indefinite topic ban would be way over the top – Tim's original proposal to just block for a fortnight appears to be much fairer. Salvio Let's talk about it! 15:45, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
    • Like Salvio, I am opposed to the month long block and the topic ban. This is a drastic change from what you suggested above and the more I read about IBans the less sure I am that this was a violation. IBans shouldn't be used to claim parts of the pedia and I feel that we would be perpetuating this idea. --Guerillero | My Talk 16:39, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
      • 1) I fully support the measure re: Russavia.
        2) While I actually disagree with Salvio (which he acknowledges) there is in fact no consensus for your proposed sanction on VM above, WGF. For this reason I stand over my remarks above that a 2 week block for VM is appropriate in this instance--Cailil talk 18:17, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
    • Russavia's actions are unquestionable and the sanction is merited. I'm not sure the discussion above concluded that VM had for certain breached the IBAN. The proposed sanction seems extreme - the original week or two block proposal seems more appropriate. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:03, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Concur w/r/t Russavia. Either two weeks or a month for VM is fine with me, but I'm not sure that this incident is enough for an indef topic ban for him. T. Canens (talk) 20:26, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
    • I'm willing to come down off of indef for VM but it's clear to me he's deserving of an EE TBAN of some length. --WGFinley (talk) 22:07, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

So I'm clear, you all think that VM stumbled into the Polandball DYK vote[40] and AfD vote[41] completely by accident or was it maybe that he was hounding Russavia's edits with a bit of an axe to grind?[42] Also, again, these two have both been blocked for violations of their IBANs with each other prior to this. This is not new. This is two years of scrapping with each other. --WGFinley (talk) 19:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

  • I'm commenting here after closing Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Polandball and becoming aware of this request through it. In the light of the principles noted at WP:ARBEE, and Russavia's lengthy history of EE-related sanctions, I consider it unacceptable conduct on his part to have created the Polandball article (which described the meme as "focussing on Polish megalomania and national complexes" as though Wikipedia would consider it a given that Poles have these) and especially its DYK nomination, both of which can be read as an attempt to use Wikipedia for promoting this obscure and divisive nationalist meme. On that basis, I think that an indefinite topic ban and possibly also a block of Russavia is warranted. I have not examined the other issues and editors discussed here and do not comment on them.  Sandstein  21:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Given the multiple concurrences on Russavia I am going to take the action described, indef WP:ARBEE (I see it changed names when I was away a bit) and 6 month block. I will concede to a 2 week block on VM so we can get a consensus. I find it difficult to believe VM was oblivious to the fact these actions involved Russavia and the last edit I linked[43] was clear baiting. I think he's deserving of an EE TBAN, is there support for that? 3-6 months would be the usual. --WGFinley (talk) 22:17, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, nope. I accept a two-week block because consensus is against me, but a topic ban is definitely overkill. Salvio Let's talk about it! 22:57, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • I don't see a need for a topic ban here. --Guerillero | My Talk 23:07, 3 April 2012 (UTC)


John is admonished for bringing unrelated and stale info to this report, MONGO is admonished for incivility and cautioned future disturbances could be subject to sanction, The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs) is topic banned from September 11 conspiracy theories, broadly construed across all spaces for 6 months. --WGFinley (talk) 23:29, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning MONGO[edit]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement 
John (talk) 17:13, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
MONGO (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy to be enforced
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/September 11 conspiracy theories
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 

16 March 2012 Not only is MONGO seemingly participating in an edit-war here, something he has previously been warned about, but his edit summary ("revert...he said she said...I say this is wrong article to be agenda well established CT POV pusher") is highly combative. MONGO tends to use the label CT ("conspiracy theorist") to discredit those with whom he disagrees. I am at a loss to see how this latest spat, which seems to concern warnings given prior to the attacks, is anything at all to do with conspiracy theories.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) 

Warned on 16 February 2011 by Beeblebrox (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I request a topic ban of MONGO from the area of 9/11 articles, broadly construed, in the interests of article improvement. Realistically this will always be a hot button article for many editors, but there is no merit in allowing an editor with this long a history (he was desysoped as long ago as 2006 over similar issues to this) to continue to edit in this area. The recent edit I am highlighting is part of a long-standing and ongoing pattern, and I would argue we are doing nobody any favours by aloowing this to continue.

I also see possible problems here with recent edits by

Finally, in the interests of disclosure, I disagreed with MONGO and his cohort pretty seriously over this article here. Lest this be seen as some kind of tit-for-tat filing, let it be known that I have no dog in this fight and am completely indifferent as to the details of what this article does and doesn't contain. --John (talk) 17:13, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

This is a long-term problem with MONGO and this article. The last really problematic edits prior to the one he has apologised for and promised not to repeat are his three reverts here, here and here. These were over a year ago, but like GG I fear that MONGO's continuing involvement will only hold the article (and it's quite an important article) back. Here and here are samples of the tactics MONGO uses to keep this article the way he seemingly wants it; there's an ongoing problem of user conduct on that article with intimidation and the personalisation of disputes resorted to on a regular basis. I appreciate though that these edits are from six months ago and may not be actionable. Certainly I'd like a decision based on the diffs supplied, and an appreciation that this situation merits further attention going forwards. I don't think it would be fair if The Devil's Advocate was sanctioned without recognising the role other editors have played in poisoning the editing environment there. --John (talk) 06:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 


Discussion concerning MONGO[edit]

Statement by MONGO[edit]

I've been participating in discussions regarding how much this "advanced knowledge debate" needs to be discussed in the article September 11 attacks...since we already have a daughter article on this advance knowledge debate. I have made very few edits in article space for some time to 9/11 articles. Nevertheless, my edit summary in the link provided by John was uncalled for and it won't happen again.MONGO 17:56, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Just a quick response to The Devil's Advocate...IF I ruled the article, I'd take half the sections there out and just have a series of see also links at the end of the article...that way we could concentrate on just the attacks, in order to maintain focus. This isn't so much an issue (though my edit summary indicated otherwise) about CT as about trying to keep peripheral things that belong in daughter articles out of this one...I don't think Tom, AQFK, Toa, myself or any other editors are trying to cover anything up...we're simply trying to keep the article managable and focused. We have the daughter articles and links to them for a we can expand on such material THERE. Whenever writing about a subject...what is the title...and the focus should be the title. I have a similar issue going on at the Elk article for's an FA that is losing it's focus since it is starting (I think) to go off in discussion about similar species and subspecies...but I think the article should be focused on the title wiht little or no mention of these other similar animals since we already have other articles about those species.--MONGO 22:20, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I will do all I can to abide by our policies governing civility and NPA...I was out of line in my edit summary but stand by the edit itself. For uninvolved admins, The last time I made an edit to ANY 9/11 related article page (I have made numerous edits to talkpages) was on November 25, 2011...[44]...that was over 3 months ago. I also have to take issue with John's closing commentary...

  • "Finally, in the interests of disclosure, I disagreed with MONGO and his cohort pretty seriously over this article here. Lest this be seen as some kind of tit-for-tat filing, let it be known that I have no dog in this fight and am completely indifferent as to the details of what this article does and doesn't contain"

which is patently "cohort"...who is my supposed "cohort"? Some sort of sanction against me regarding 9/11 articles has been a long standing goal of John...where in just one of many examples, John clearly states "The idea of reactivating the 2008 Arbcom case to have MONGO removed from play is also not a ridiculous one" and prior to that in the same diff states "One possibility some way down the line would be for us (by which I mean the non-partisan editors with an interest in improving the article) to put together a sandbox version then build a consensus to switch to a more neutral and GA-compliant version." which indicates to me that he is most assuredly not "indifferent as to the details of what the article does and doesn't contain". John is attempting to misuse the dispute resoution process to gain an advantage in a content dispute...and his example here is edit in the last 3.5 months? Please do tell me John, do you have further evidence to warrant a topic ban...cause according to you I am a POV pusher, live in a walled garden, and am ignorant...gosh.--MONGO 23:32, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning MONGO[edit]

Show a 3RR violation or else I doubt this will be taken seriously. Requesting a full-blown indefinite topic ban without any diffs showing a 3RR violation simply doesn't work and, and I hope this is dismissed quickly because this simply doesn't have much merit.Toa Nidhiki05 17:59, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

One revert and an uncharitable edit summary doesn't rate a topic ban. Mongo and AQFK aren't the problem; it's TDA's persistent determination to rewrite articles, even when there is a clear consensus against it. Determination in the face of opposition is a great character trait, but it makes The Devil's Advocate a difficult guy to work with. He's been asked before in unrelated areas to drop the stick and step away from the horse. Trying to force in his rewrite at September 11 attacks he ran up to the limit of 3rr yesterday:

Yesterday I tried to work with TDA's edits at September 11 attacks, and came to regret it. He was determined to have his way, even after AQFK expressed concerns. If he'd get consensus first, or make a couple of changes and then let them set for a day or two until people can at least read them and follow up the references, they'd be a lot easier to integrate into the article. Tom Harrison Talk 18:24, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

A Quest for Knowledge/AQFK's accounts are entirely in line with policy, and they aren't going to confuse anyone. Mischaracterizing this as an edit war is unnecessarily inflammatroy. Tom Harrison Talk 18:31, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

One down, Two to go! How long before our main page just reads "WTC WAS AN INSIDE JOB?" Hipocrite (talk) 18:47, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Statement by The Devil's Advocate[edit]

Honestly, this whole dispute is rather petty. MONGO appears to have a problem with having a section that deals with warnings prior to 9/11 about the threat of al-Qaeda attacks in the U.S., something that I think most would honestly agree belongs in the article. What John and Tom are talking about above with regards to my edits are mainly two reverts I made that removed duplicate information AQFK mistakenly inserted and that restored long-standing information he had completely removed from the article, I presume, by mistake. Basically, it seems AQFK tried to manually undo changes I made to the material about said information and goofed by inadvertently deleting the information altogether. As to there being "clear consensus" against my edits, so far no one has actually given a specific objection to the changes I made so the claim of a consensus is misleading. It is honestly hard to see a legitimate reason for undoing my changes when one compares this version of the section before my changes to this version after my changes. All AQFK has provided to justify his revert is a vague claim that the changes "may" not be supported by the sources without pointing to anything specific, which kind of makes it hard to discuss the issue.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:34, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
@Geo I don't think I have been particularly provocative towards MONGO, though his behavior can make it quite difficult for any editor to remain civil. You expressed the desire during a similarly trivial debacle over the first sentence of the cultural impact section for consensus to focus more on making edits and less on reverting and arguing over the details. Unfortunately, when editors revert without providing clear objections discussion becomes quite impossible. I mean if someone reverts a primarily stylistic change full of citations with the comment "change may not be supported by sources" and fails to provide further explanation, as in this latest instance, how exactly can there be any discussion about how to proceed? Of course, the common denominator in those situations is AQFK, not MONGO.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:10, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

@NW My edits in this topic area have been in the spirit of making bold edits to improve the articles and provide a neutral point of view. To say I am "one of the key problems" is getting switched around. The key problem is the current state of the 9/11 topic area and the conduct of the "gatekeepers" who patrol its pages. Editors have little room for making bold edits and for a long time there has not been a constructive or encouraging environment. I try to make bold edits and I try to have honest and cordial discussion with other editors, but many editors resist compromise because they feel it is a slippery slope. On some level I think these editors are afraid that allowing any leeway will open the floodgates and as a result many of these articles remain locked in a state of morass for fear of what might happen if people are allowed to make bold edits. There is a "revert first and ask questions later" mentality dominating this topic area that makes achieving a constructive dialogue a battle in itself.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:32, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Adding to Geo's comment, the dynamic would actually include Tom, and Toa to a lesser extent. Recently Dheyward stepped into that troublesome dynamic as well, after Tom's topic ban and prior to the AN case.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 01:20, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

@AQFK, you are leaving out important information. When you reverted Nemo the first time you gave the following explanation:

Not about 9/11 conspiracy theories.

I inserted the material with a sentence that it was used to advance conspiracy theories and added the following links: [45] [46]. Then that material was moved to another section of the article by Mystylplx, not removed. You removed the material giving a new explanation:

Not a major element of 9/11 CTs.

On the discussion page I provided additional sources, on top of the ones you mention, that more clearly supported it as having a significant connection to the 9/11 CTs: [47]. Also, despite what you claim JoelWhy's comment was not strictly opposed to including material about Able Danger. His comments were open to inclusion if there were improvements: [48]. So it is not a situation of me and Nemo supporting the exact same material against all those other editors. I have tried to provide sources and make improvements upon Nemo's insertions to satisfy the concerns of other editors. Other editors have been receptive to inclusion provided there are improvements or better sources provided.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:50, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

As an added note, the description of my insertion of that material as edit-warring is misunderstanding the policy on edit-warring. It is not meant to discourage bold edits in response to concerns at the talk page. Rather, it is meant to discourage restoring and removing the same material over and over without making any progress towards improving upon the edits. Anyone can look at those edits and see I was not just reinserting the same material, but making improvements to it.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:35, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

@Hand It is an article about the conspiracy theories. The standard for inclusion in the article is lower than it would be for creating articles on these individual theories or including the material in other articles. Rather than have the constant situation of Nemo inserting the same material and the same people reverting it, I have tried to make improvements to what Nemo has added to satisfy the objections of both sides and end the edit-warring over the material.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:02, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

@Hand I don't see how anyone can see anything tendentious in my changes to that section. The few objections to my changes were addressed on the talk page so there is no reason why those changes should not be restored. I certainly don't see anything "pointy" about initiating an RfC on the section's inclusion altogether. The main dispute on the talk page was whether the section should be included at all. Two editors supported it being included and there were four editors who were not, but that is not really enough to get a decent consensus. WP:RFC suggests editors leave a brief, neutral statement of the issue so that is what I did.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:39, 21 March 2012 (UTC)


Is this ever considered appropriate? The RfC was open for just five hours and only got five editors involved, including myself, before Dheyward closed it claiming a consensus.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:46, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Request close[edit]

Could an admin just close this with no action? It is getting ridiculous. This has clearly ceased to be about MONGO with the editor first turning this on me being one who just came off a topic ban following an AE report I filed against him. I am not going to even try and re-argue every edit in this topic area over the past five months with any editor that decides to join in this pile-on at an AE case about a completely separate editor.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 01:52, 18 March 2012 (UTC)


At this point the dispute has plainly expanded into a matter far more complicated than any individual editor and has gone beyond just one single dispute or one single article. We have also gone well beyond the editor who the report was filed against and it seems this will just keep growing and be completely irresolvable through AE. I think this should be perhaps referred to a different venue such as DRN or mediation rather than resolved through sanctions, unless those sanctions are of a more unique application that don't isolate any specific editor.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:12, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Dheyward, DRN and Mediation do not issue sanctions against editors. Mediation may be the best option since this matter is a bit hefty for WP:DRN.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:57, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
Compromise sanction proposal[edit]

I believe the admins should consider the comments from Geo and Cla that this is not a situation existing in isolation where I am the "cause" of the problem. Many of the issues here are long-standing questions of conduct with the editors in this topic area. To that extent I would suggest that admins make a constructive surgical restriction, rather than taking the battle axe approach of topic bans. I don't believe that will fix anything or encourage better editing, especially if it is only issued against a single editor.

My perspective is that the biggest problem is the failure of editors to allow bold edits on the basis of "not getting consensus" beforehand, at times making hasty reverts like was done with the warning sections. This goes against the principle that consensus is ideally achieved through edits, rather than talk page discussion. So my suggestion is that either the topic area, or those editors concerned (myself included), be subject to an editing restriction that would essentially require that all contentious reverts be contingent on there being discussion on the talk page providing specific objections to the changes being reverted, thus avoiding reverts due to "no consensus" as is common now. Furthermore I would accept there being a 1RR per article per week restriction on myself and other editors deemed to be in need of such a restriction, such as those John names above.

What I think is that this will prove to make editing more stable, and hopefully make it clear to all editors concerned that their behavior is indeed not acceptable. At the same time, it will avoid the troublesome situation of removing editors from the topic area altogether.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:19, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I really wasn't wanting to note anything further on this and fill up this case with more information, but the recent actions by some of these editors with regards to the warnings section of the 9/11 article have pretty much exhausted my patience. At first things seemed to be going pretty good in the 9/11 article. Tom made a bold edit, then I went in and made some more bold edits. Tom responded in turn and I reciprocated again. At this point, everything was going as it should with gradual improvements being made without the need for lengthy talk page discussion. Then AQFK stepped in with a revert, causing everything to go downhill. First, AQFK reverted the changes manually in a way that removed all information about the August briefing and replacing it with an older version of a paragraph that was already included in the section, thus repeating the same material in the section. The two reverts John notes above are me trying to re-add the August briefing information that was mistakenly removed. Not only that, AQFK gave an unclear objection that the changes "may" not be supported by a source. It took nearly four days for AQFK to actually provide a specific objection to just a single sentence I added, that I then explained was verified by noting quotes from the cited source.

Had that been the end of it maybe things could be laid to rest, but as has been the case before, the response of these editors is to go in the exact opposite direction of compromise. Basically all discussion about improvements at the talk page was being tabled as they talked about removing the warnings section altogether. In the midst of this three separate editors who have been regularly involved in these disputes with me suggest they don't trust me to make improvements, demanding they be allowed to review my changes before they can be added to the article. Another editor stepped in to support keeping the section and, seeing there was a stalemate developing, I decided to start an RfC on the matter of whether the section should be included. Following several demeaning comments towards me, almost all from the editors involved in the previous discussion, DHeyward steps in and tries to close the RfC claiming there was a consensus despite it only being up for five hours. Even though this was plainly inappropriate another editor steps in twice to stop me from re-opening the RfC.

That, however, is not where it ended as another editor steps in to re-open the RfC and express support for including the section. At that point, the response is DHeyward creating a content fork with the material from the warnings section and leaving an edit summary saying that he is starting a "less CT article", referring to the existing advance knowledge article. He then guts the warnings section on the 9/11 article to much less than what it was before I even began making changes and links to the fork. Around that same time AQFK jumps on to the advance knowledge article talk page to suggest deleting the article as not being notable. I leave a comment noting that it is not a fringe issue and even just one aspect of it gets lots of mainstream coverage. AQFK's response is to rename the article "advance-knowledge conspiracy theories" and, when I note that I was plainly saying it is a mainstream issue and not a conspiracy theory, he responds that they "already have an article" for that, referring to the just-created-two-days-ago, three-paragraph-long content fork. AQFK also used his other account to remove information from the lede summarizing material from the body claiming it was "unsourced" even though this is generally typical for the lede, which is intended as a summary of info in the article. Tom steps in as well and rewrites the lede of the article in a way that implies it is a conspiracy theory to suggest warnings of an attack or intelligence relating to the hijackers was specific enough to warrant action, something that is actually regularly asserted in mainstream discourse on the issue.

Certainly I am prominently involved in these disputes, but I think it is counterintuitive to suggest my mere involvement in the situation makes me the problem in need of addressing. Most of these editors have had these issues well before I became involved. Really I am not even the one starting the disputes. The warnings section was inserted by a completely different editor two months before and I merely improved upon the section. All my involvement really achieved is directing a lot of negative attention to the section with the mere act of editing it.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:32, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

@WG The only "edit war" being mentioned is that warnings section nonsense, but, as I explained, AQFK inserted a paragraph that repeated information from another part of the section and removed all information of an issue that had been in the article before I made any changes to the section. I explained as clearly as I could when I reverted the mistake what the mistake had been. Tom even noticed the mistake after he reverted me. Nothing else even comes close to edit-warring. Nothing about it was tendentious either as not a single editor raised a legitimate and unaddressed objection to the changes I made. All material that I added was sourced as I demonstrated on the talk page. Just because they don't like me editing articles in the topic area at all without their permission, doesn't make the act of editing itself tendentious.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:27, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify here are some of the conduct issues in that "almost frivolous" report Ed is talking about: [49] [50].--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:15, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Geometry guy[edit]

Without prejudice concerning the details of this incident, MONGO makes substantial positive contributions to the encyclopedia, including 9/11 articles, despite the fact that the latter lead him into conflict. MONGO has admitted fault concerning his edit summary, saying "it won't happen again". Unfortunately, based on my experience, I am almost certain something similar will happen again, as the whole CT issue touches a nerve with MONGO, and TDA is a major conduit for that at the moment. Also TDA can be provocative in his approach, which is something TDA needs to address. Anyway, the whole point of AE is to discourage such friction in controversial articles like these, but it isn't always clear how best to achieve that. Perhaps short topic bans (for a week or less) would be a better way to diffuse problems and tensions over minor issues than longer term sanctions. Geometry guy 23:22, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I have never begun a comment with "@" and I don't intend to start now: user talk is available for direct discussion. Based on my experience, I would concur with TDA that AQFK can be part of the problem as well as part of the solution. There is a complicated dynamic between these three 9/11 editors (MONGO, TDA and AQFK) making it difficult to consider any one behavior in isolation. Geometry guy 01:02, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
"Tenditious" is not a word. Geometry guy 01:12, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Cla68[edit]

Initial post[edit]

This Wikiquette discussion may help to give some background here. As you may know, the admin who initially gave Tom Harrison the topic ban gave up his admin tools and left the project after being criticized. The bad blood in this dispute is really causing problems inside and outside of this topic area, and judging by the diffs in the Wikiquette discussion, sanctioning only the Devil's Advocate wouldn't be very fair, or probably very effective. There are several editors who are going way overboard on personalizing this dispute. Cla68 (talk) 02:28, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


Perhaps in response to my post above, MONGO just took a shot at me in an MfD discussion. This is indicative of the same type of personalization of disputes that has been illustrated in this complaint. Cla68 (talk) 01:07, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment by DHeyward[edit]

I would like to know what article edit TDA believes I have made that is problematic. In fact, I don't think I've made an article edit in that area for quite a while. I've made comments on talk pages mostly because I believe your "goal" is counter productive to the project but even that has been extremely limited. You can review almost a year or more of my edits on a single page and you will see very little edits to anything related to 9/11. As Cla68 has mentioned, this has poisoned my interest. It faded after a long and lengthy battle to get a problematic sock master, Giovanni33 banned and it drained my interest. Fighting the drama TDA creates leaves me with little motivation to actually try to improve articles as there are constant battles over idiocy. It's like trying to deal with someone with OCD, Asperberger, paranoia and infinite time on their hands to constantly disrupt the project. --DHeyward (talk) 15:40, 17 March 2012 (UTC).

Also, in general, I don't see the edits MONGO made after the warning. It seems the cart has been put before the horse. I am not familiar with what is proper protocol but I would think in fairness, the warning would need to be before the behavior, not simply a notification that a sanction is being sought. I would think the decision would say "notification" and not "warning" if that were the case. Did I miss something? --DHeyward (talk) 18:30, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

I support a topic ban for TDA after reading the diatribe he has written and his suggestion to forum shop a sanction. It's clear where the problem lies. Everyone can see the topic ban coming so why extend the drama? (Actually I think a community ban is coming but a topic ban will just make that more obvious when his attention is focused elsewhere). --DHeyward (talk) 20:24, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Statement by A Quest for Knowledge[edit]

Ghostofnemo and The Devil's Advocate have been tendentiously editing 9/11 conspiracy theories article for months now. The latest example is over the addition of a subsection on Able Danger:

This subsection on Able Danger contains one of the most blatant misuse of sources I've ever seen. The first two cited sources,[52][53] aren't even about 9/11 conspiracy theories. The third source is essentially a primary source (a transcript of testimony given by Curt Weldon) and only contains a passing reference to CTs.[54] The fourth source isn't about Able Danger conspiracy theories at all. It's actually about a fictional thriller film (not a documentary) named Able Danger apparently inspired by 9/11 conspiracy theories. Here's what the source actually says:

As best I can tell, there's not a single word specifically about Able Danger conspiracy theories. In fact, none of this content in the source is even in the article content. I've only been on Wikipedia a couple years, but this is one of the most blatant misuse of sources I've ever seen.

Please take a look at this article talk page discussion.[55] I count 5 editors against this edit (me, JoelWhy, Tom Harrison, The Hand That Feeds You and DHeyward). The only editors in favor of this edit are Ghostofnemo and The Devil's Advocate.

Instead of waiting to get consensus on the article talk page,[56] they preceded to edit-war it back into the article:

  • Ghostofnemo[57]
  • The Devil's Advocate[58]
  • Ghostofnemo[59]
  • The Devil's Advocate[60]

A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:47, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

@Cla68: Your edit summary says that there was a "recent personal attack"[61] but the diff you posted[62]] doesn't contain a personal attack as far as I can see. Which part is a personal attack? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:06, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Unarchived outstanding request. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:19, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Statement by The Hand That Feeds You[edit]

MONGO has a tendency to be brusque in his talk page comments and edit summaries, but I find myself agreeing with his editorial decisions more often than not. He has been a staunch supporter of WP:WEIGHT by attempting to keep articles around the Sept. 11 attacks focused on the scientifically accepted facts, rather than the minority fringe views. While 9/11 conspiracy theories‎ is specifically about CTs, it does not do our readers justice to fill it with every idea that has crossed the Internet. Some of these are the fringe of the fringe, thus needing no mention here.

A few editors, notably Ghostofnemo and The Devil's Advocate, are pushing for a more broad interpretation of what should be included in the article. Despite his name, TDA seems focused on providing a pro-conspiracy POV in the article, the antithesis of what I (and others) feel the article should focus on. This has led to friction on the Talk page and minor edit wars. I've taken several wikibreaks specifically because I'm tired of repeating the same arguments with TDA and GoN when they bring another fringe theory into the article.

MONGO has done nothing deserving sanctions. And while I would not be displeased if TFA were no longer inflating the talk page with long, drawn out arguments over fringe theories, I'm not certain he's deserving of a topic ban just yet. However, a close watch by more editors would be helpful. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 18:00, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Amending my prior statement. Given TDA's continued tendentious behavior, including this POINTy RfC when others questioned his edits to September 11 attacks, I think a topic ban is appropriate. I'm tired of his gaming and complete disregard for consensus. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 18:43, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Statement by ArtifexMayhem[edit]

Per WP:SNOW... The problem is not MONGO. The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs) started pushing back in October on 7 World Trade Center with edits on the 24th, 25th (twice), 29th, and discussions at Talk:7 World Trade Center - Archive 8 sections here, here, here, and here (diffs for all of TDA's WTC7 edits can be found here). He has since been making the same arguments at Talk:9/11 conspiracy theories here.

TDA's WP:NPOV policy arguments are a moving target; For example his questioning of this guy does not comport with WP:ARB911 principle 15.1.2 Neutral point of view...

2) Article content must be presented from a neutral point of view. Where different scholarly viewpoints exist on a topic, those views enjoying a reasonable degree of support should be reflected in article content. An article should fairly represent the weight of authority for each such view, and should not give undue weight to views held by a relatively small minority of commentators or scholars.

This is not atypical. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 01:22, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Superm401[edit]

I recommend taking no action beyond advising everyone involved to be civil, and that Wikipedia does not have ownership of articles. I expect that MONGO will be sincere in ensuring such edit summaries "won't happen again." I think The Devil's Advocate's RfC was in good faith, but it would have been better to allow more free-form discussion first. It would be simpler if A Quest for Knowledge exclusively used the shorter username (or at least one username per topic), but I don't know if we can require that. Superm401 - Talk 22:56, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Moved (at least for now) statement by The Blade of the Northern Lights[edit]

Please note, I don't really consider myself involved, but per the latest thread on my talkpage I'm willing to move this for now to avoid any appearance of impropriety. I certainly think that MONGO has lost it a couple of times there, but we don't require nor expect perfection. It happens, and for now it hasn't reached a level that I feel is sanctionable. I also think that The Devil's Advocate has chucked a boomerangI was interrupted in the middle of writing this, and as sometimes happens I wrote something that didn't make any sense at all isn't helping the situation, and I too would be good with a topic ban of some sort. 90 days would be fine with me, although I have no problem with anything longer. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:12, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Statement by ToaNidhiki05[edit]

I agree with the growing consensus to topic ban TDA. He is pushing his tendentious edits and blatantly and explicitly disregarding consensus. His recent RfC, an obvious abuse of the RfC system, is proof of his pointy behavior. He is becoming increasingly impossible to work with and he needs to be removed from the topic, as his previous topic ban did not teach him anything, evidently. The fact that almost every editor that has posted here has complained about TDA's editing behavior is really proof enough that he needs to be topic banned. Toa Nidhiki05 16:15, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning MONGO[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
  • I haven't taken as comprehensive a look as I would like to, but I did look in at this issue some time ago and again when I closed a topic ban removal discussion with regards to Tom harrison. Certainly few people in the topic area are free of fault (in fact, basically no one is, and I am not excluding MONGO from that), but it appears to me that The Devil's Advocate is one of the key problems with regards to the deterioration of the editing environment recently. I would propose a topic ban for TDA and a closing of this request without prejudice to refiling if things don't improve shortly. Thoughts? NW (Talk) 23:57, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Any other thoughts? I really don't want to spend the time to review properly if another administrator thinks that my suggestion is entirely off-base (as this report is one that I don't think I should close by myself). NW (Talk) 22:48, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Moving comment, at least for now; see above The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:01, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I think this is a spurious request at best.
    • Bringing up MONGO being desysopped is pretty much way out of line and has nothing to do with this. AE is not a criminal court where you bring out someone's "rap sheet" to beat them with when you don't agree with them. The filer should be admonished for continuing battleground behavior on AE.
    • MONGO should be admonished for the name calling but I can't see taking any more action than that. He's acknowledged it and apologized.
    • TDA continues to have his issues in this space and his issues seem to have hijacked this request, I'm not ready to do another TBAN on him at this time, I would admonish him as well that continuled battleground behavior is going to result in another TBAN. --WGFinley (talk) 14:40, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Having previously issued a TBAN to TDA I was reluctant to jump on and endorse another TBAN for him, I thought he needed a chance to show he could edit harmoniously here. After I posted my opinion he has continued to complain about being the only admin here willing to say he didn't deserve a TBAN, apparently. His conduct there has led me to reassess my opinion, although not in the manner he intended. Per my comments to him on my talk page:

There are numerous citations by several editors showing clear instances where you have not reformed your WP:TE habits and are happy to edit war away with people. I was of the opinion they were a bit too harsh and you needed a chance to work on it still. However, your comments here make it clear to me you do not possess the perspective required to edit in this space. You show a complete lack of any regard for the position of others, if you are not fully supported 100% in your positions you nag people as you are right now to me. I asked you a few times to drop this but you persisted, you've left me with no choice but to change my position.

I now concur with NW and the other editors here who have complained about his behvior. I propose a 3 month 9/11 TBAN for TDA and plan to close out this case if there are no objections in 24 hours. --WGFinley (talk) 17:33, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

  • I support this result. When Wgfinley originally sanctioned him last November for only one month that seemed a bit light to me. Since TDA should be more familiar with our system by now I had hoped that he would be working more harmoniously on 9/11, but that has not occurred. His recent complaint about DHeyward at this noticeboard does nothing to improve his reputation, being thin on significant content and looking like an attempt to silence an opponent. My own analysis of his complaint led to a sense it was almost a frivolous posting. It is understandable that editors with views that are somewhat out of the Wikipedia mainstream may find themselves appealing for admin action against their opponents, when getting support among regular editors proves difficult. Long term, the question of when to mention conspiracy theories or fringe views in our 9/11 articles should remain open for respectful discussion. EdJohnston (talk) 18:32, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Personally, I would have gone for six months, if not longer. I seriously doubt that TDA's behavior is going to improve in three months. T. Canens (talk) 22:42, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
    • Don't have a problem with 6. --WGFinley (talk) 22:54, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
      • Agree with a six month ban of TDA from 9/11. EdJohnston (talk) 23:22, 3 April 2012 (UTC)