- 1 18.104.22.168
- 2 Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change
- 3 Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Piotrus
- 3.1 Statement by Piotrus
- 3.2 Statement by Mkativerata
- 3.3 Statement by Volunteer Marek
- 3.4 Statement by (involved editor 2)
- 3.5 Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Piotrus
- 3.6 Result of the appeal by Piotrus
- 4 User:Atabəy
- 5 1RR violation and request to ban and restore
- 6 Abd
- 6.1 Request concerning Abd
- 6.2 Discussion concerning Abd
- 6.3 Result concerning Abd
- 7 Chesdovi
- 8 Pantherskin
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|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning 22.214.171.124
Discussion concerning 126.96.36.199
Statement by 188.8.131.52
Comments by others about the request concerning 184.108.40.206
Result concerning 220.127.116.11
Blocked 72 hours (second block for the same). O Fenian, while reverting IPs is exempt from the 1RR, please at least make an effort to mind your reverts. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:31, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change
|Closed by filer, filed in wrong spot.|
|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Statement by your A Quest For Knowledge
ANI is on my watchlist and something has recently come to my attention. Apparently, WMC has been keeping a list of diffs of various editors in his user space. Although it's not named this, he calls the page his "twat list" in edit summaries. I thought that we were supposed to delete these sort of pages within 10 days of the close of the CC ArbCom case. It's of concern to me because I'm listed on his page twice, along with many other editors involved in the CC topic space. Since coming to the attention of ANI, his list has been blanked by admin and is now up for deletion. So I guess I have two issues for clarification:
Statement by Scott MacDonald (one of the "twats")
Arbitrator views and discussion
Administrator note: If you are asking for clarification from arbcom, then this is the wrong page, and you should be looking for WP:A/R/CL. Personally, I do not see how WMC's page counts as an "evidence sub-page" unless it was, well, used for evidence in the arbcom case. It may well be deletable for other reasons, but not under that arbcom remedy. Also, unless you can demonstrate that WMC's edits to that page subsequent to the closure of the CC case included CC-related material, I do not think that the fact that the page previously contained CC-related diffs is sufficient by itself to make out a topic ban violation given the rather, let's say, disorganized nature of the page. T. Canens (talk) 15:04, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Piotrus
|Unblocked by blocking admin.|
|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. |
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Piotrus
As Mkativerata notes, I am under a restriction, a topic ban, "from articles about national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe". Please note I am no longer under a ban from "Eastern European" topics. The current topic ban is unfortunately blurry, and in the past months two editors have tried gaming it, accusing me of violating it. Both cases are logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive76, with no action taken towards me, although I fully admit that in the first one a valid point was made that I made a single edit too close to the line that I shouldn't; I recognized that and promised, voluntarily, to be even more careful. Please note that both of the reports were closed without an warning to me ("No action taken in respect of Piotrus" x2). At the same time the editors demanding sanctions against me were banned from AE for battleground mentality. Please note that the drafting arbitrator who commented on the first report stated that "[Piotrus] interpretation of the topic area might well have been a bit too wide in this case and that withdrawing is the correct thing to do" (but he did not suggest I deserve a warning, nor that I actually violated the ban). The former is actually an important point: Mkativerata claims I was given "a very specific warning". Where, I dare ask? The word warning is not used in the closure, nor in the admin's comments in the "Result concerning Piotrus" section, nor by Mkativerata himself. It was used only by Vassyana towards the other, reporting editor and by Ncmvocalist towards both me and him (if I understand him correctly); both of those occurred in the general peanut-gallery "Comments by others about the request concerning Piotrus" section. Not to repeat myself, I admit again that that incident was a form of a warning, and I pledged, voluntarily, to be more careful, as I recognize how one of my edits was close to or even over the line. But I was not given a warning, certainly, not a clear one - nothing more than a general, situational reminder that the topic ban I am under is quite murky, and it is possible to brush against it even when trying, with all possible good faith, to avoid doing so.
I now find myself suddenly blocked for an edit and talk page post to Battle of Komarów. Here's my defence:
I should add here that I recognize that some milhist articles are within the scope of the ban, and parts of others are (as was the case with the mentioned edit to the Peace of Riga article in the first report). I saw on my watchlist recently a small edit war and a discussion about who won a certain conflict and I decided to stay away from it, as it might be seen as within the topic ban. But how is the question about a uniqueness of a cavalry battle a violation of my topic ban? The question is unrelated to my topic ban, the only connection is that this battle happens to have taken place in Eastern Europe, a fact irrelevant to the edit and discussion in question anyway (and I am not banned from Eastern Europe topics anymore). My understanding about the word "disputes" in my topic ban is that it relates to controversial issues of ethnicity, nationality, and such, not to general military conflicts (would the blocking admin block me for editing articles about crime, politics, or an academic dispute on a term used by Polish sociologists...?!).
Bottom line, I do not believe I breached my topic ban. If I did, I ask for a clear explanation how I did so, and I'd appreciate if my block was decided in a consensus of adminitrators, as is the usual case of AE. I ask to be unblocked, pending that discussion, and I can promise to avoid all military topics till I get a clarification from them and/or arbitrators whether I can edit them (I also promise to avoid, for the period of that discussion, an other areas that the blocking admin thinks I should avoid that he blocked me for that I do not realize). I was about to start writing a DYK for the WP:CUP, I logged in minute after the New Year, and I have to say that to find this block is hardly the way I was expecting to start the New Year.
I would also like to ask Mkativerata two questions:
Statement by Mkativerata
Just a short statement from me. A military battle is a "dispute". Quite a serious one. This was as clear a violation of the topic ban as could be imaginable. Now to respond to each question from Piotrus:
A comment on the block length. I went with one week, and I think it should stay that way, because: (1) it is consistent with the first offence blocks for other EEML topic ban violations (see Martintg's one week block for his first violation ); and (2) it is an egregious offence after two recent AEs on similar issues, in one of which Piotrus was specifically cautioned not to continue trespassing into the scope of the topic ban. --Mkativerata (talk) 03:41, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer Marek
As pointed out by Piotrus the article itself has never been a subject of controversy or dispute. It is my understanding that when the original topic ban was relaxed the intent was to keep Piotrus out of articles that had been in fact subject of controversy or dispute (and many of these controversial ones are actually about stuff that is not or has ever been in any sense a "dispute" in RL, only on Wikipedia), but allow him to edit those - where his work has been extremely helpful and productive - which hadn't. The Battle of Komorow is in the latter category.
Perhaps the confusion stems from what the word "dispute" refers to. May I suggest that somebody ask User:Newyorkbrad about the intent/applicability of the "national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe"" before this appeal is turned up or down, since, AFAICR he was the one who drafted the relevant motion? Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:44, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Also, I got to ask. Was this really necessary? Whether or not the edit was a topic ban breach, it was an extremely helpful edit, very informative, and exactly the kind of which we should see more on Wikipedia - one where sources are listed, provided and discussed as a means of HELPING another editor. What was the point of reverting that, seriously? I'm going to restore that Piotrus' edit (per WP:BAN I'll take full responsibility for its content) unless someone can point out a meaningful reason for why it shouldn't be there). Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:44, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Piotrus
Comment by BorisG
I disagree with esteemed admins. I think the word 'disputes' refer to present day disputes between different views (on and off wiki), not past conflicts between people, nations etc. Why I think so? Because the aim of the whole thing is to stop battleground behaviour by editors. If both the article and the edit are about something that is non-controlversial (which ideally should be confirmed by both sides, rather than taken at face value), then they cannot cause battleground behaviour. This is not about the word 'military'. But ultimately, a clarification from an ArbCom member of what they meant would be useful. - BorisG (talk) 04:53, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Vecrumba
My understanding was that "conflict" pertained to conflicts over historical interpretation, not, for example, to ancient Estonians and Latvians whacking each other in battle—while a "conflict," there is no contention by either Estonians or Latvians regarding historical circumstances.
Comment by Shell Kinney
I think that the difference of opinion here is because Piotrus is keeping in mind the scope of the case while admins reviewing are only looking at the wording of a remedy. It might help to keep in mind that the case and the problems were clearly about ethnic or national identity disputes, not simply all military actions in the area. It's one thing to consider something broadly and another to miss the spirit of the ruling and ding editors for an entire week over completely innocuous edits without any kind of warning that you're considering any military-related article a violation. It's a bit of a concern that we've had 3-4 of these in the past few weeks where a number of editors have expressed confusion over the actual scope of the ban. Shell babelfish 15:42, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Kirill LokshinGenerally speaking, when the Committee has crafted remedies referring to "national, cultural, or ethnic disputes", the remedies were intended to cover topics which are the subject of such disputes, not merely topics that might have involved historical disputes in and of themselves. I am thus unconvinced that treating all military history as though it were a matter of dispute is consistent with the arbitrators' intent in the November motion.
Further, as Shell mentions, I think imposing lengthy blocks over an edit that does not appear to be controversial and which may or may not fall within the scope of the remedy is not ideal. It would be preferable for enforcing administrators to familiarize themselves with the context of the original case, particularly in complex scenarios such as EEML, and use that information to guide their enforcement decisions, rather than basing them exclusively on a bright-line reading of a particular remedy. Kirill [talk] [prof] 16:34, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Newyorkbrad
I was the author of the wording of the remedy in question. Its intent was to reduce the scope of Piotrus's topic-ban, which formerly included any articles relating to Eastern Europe, so that it would prohibit editing only on disputed topics within the overall Eastern Europe topic area. The purpose was to allow topic-banned editors such as Piotrus to return gradually to editing within the topic area, allowing the encyclopedia to benefit from their subject-matter expertise without becoming embroiled in controversies such as those they have not handled well in the past. As such, the question is whether there is a present-day national or ethnic dispute concerning an issue. The scope of the revised topic-ban should be interpreted accordingly. Further, given that this was my intention when I wrote the words, and I believe the intention of the other arbitrators who voted for them, I am certainly prepared to accept Piotrus's statement that this was his good-faith interpretation as well.
I am travelling for the holidays with limited on-wiki time and access. After I get home on Monday night, if it is deemed necessary, I will propose a motion to clarify this wording. This should not, however, delay any action that is appropriate in the interim, including unblocking if that is warranted based upon the overall record here, including the arbitrator comments. This is not to be taken as criticism of the administrators who may, in reliance on the wording of the remedy, have taken a more restrictive interpretation. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:50, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Piotrus
I'm going to unblock Piotrus now (HJ Mitchell agrees and Courcelles would have been happy with 24 hrs which has now been served) with a couple of thoughts for Arbcom in addition to those given by the other admins above (all of which I agree with). Vercrumba raises a good point. Similarly, If the topic ban is to exclude "past conflicts", will that also include past conflicts in relation to which there remain disputes (eg disputes about who was at fault for the conflict)? In either case, how will you express that in a clarified topic ban? Clearly the ban needs to be amended to reflect the apparent intent of Arbcom being much narrower than the text of the topic ban says. But, in my experience drafting laws for a living, it is better to have no restriction at all than a restriction that cannot be unambiguously drafted so as to reflect the drafter's intention. The fact that you have four admins on one side of this issue, and three arbs on the other side (although I note NYB's comment that he means no criticism of the four admins' approach) is a strong as possible an indication of this. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:20, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
|No action taken.|
|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
Request concerning User:Atabəy
I would also like to point out that User:Atabəy was one of the original editors involved in AA2 and therefore was clearly aware of his violation.
Discussion concerning User:Atabəy
Statement by User:Atabəy
User:Kansas Bear claims that he warned me over: here for allegedly saying "De Waal is from Armenian sources", and then called it a battleground mentality. Yet, What I said on the talk page is the following (precisely): "The primary source citing them was Armenian eyewitness used by Human Rights Watch, which was quoted in De Waal's book". I don't see how telling this fact is considered a battleground mentality, so obviously Kansas Bear was grossly misinterpreting my words on talk page and assuming bad faith in making the warning he indicated above.
The whole issue with this case stems from the fact, User:MarshallBagramyan, a participant of A-A ArbCom cases, has initiated a deletion of Agdaban massacre, Malibeyli and Gushchular Massacre, Garadaghly Massacre pages. All three pages relate to factually established massacres of Azerbaijanis by Armenian forces in the course of Nagorno-Karabakh War. The deletion was carried out by supportive administrator User:Buckshot06, who did so without following any formal procedures, as indicated by administrator here. Also per User:Buckshot06's own admission here, his deletion was based solely on his personal impression of User:MarshallBagramyan and no other procedural or objective reasoning.
After lengthy discussion at , and requests to deleting administrator to undo the deletion, I followed admin suggestion and filed this case at WP:DRV, which concluded in an overturn of deleting administrator's action.
Thus the intimidating actions of User:MarshallBagramyan and supportive editors constitute a WP:BATTLE, clearly aimed at initiating the removal of factually-supported articles describing massacres of one side, while defending other articles, without sufficient research or discussion. Reviewing administrators are welcome to look into history of my edits in Maraghar Massacre article under discussion to find out that I placed notability tag and actually contributed well researched sources to the article. Most of the sources, previously used were misquoted, as can be easily seen by thorough review of Google Books references. So I did correct them providing exact URLs of quoted pages and added even more references as can be seen in summary diff of my edits.
The editors disputing my edits or filing this case have not contributed any reference to this article, neither sufficiently participated in Talk:Maraghar Massacre page, providing any reference whatsoever. Reverting User:Takabeg and User:Kansas Bear also did not provide sufficient comments on their edits on the talk page. The former left no comments actually, while the latter kept airing his opinion of me rather than article subject. I welcome the reviewers to look into the talk page to see all the facts.
I would like to still thank User:Kansas Bear for his warning on my talk page. However, I am not sure if Arbitration enforcement request was appropriate immediately after warning me and without further post-warning incidence. This request made by him actually defeats the purpose of his warning.
Again, what does all your reverting of vandalism have to do with this WP:AE case? The fact is that you are on a list of editors warned about possible sanctions in A-A2 case, and you continue to engage in revert war, push POV and target other users in the case. Atabəy (talk) 02:07, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
To administrators: Practically every user in this thread was involved in WP:ARBAA2, and that includes MarshallBagramyan (talk · contribs) (participant) and Kansas Bear (talk · contribs) specifically. To better understand the depth of the issue behind this reporting review this discussion at DRV and review Talk:Maraghar Massacre. I don't believe my contribution to articles warrants discretionary sanctions under WP:AE, and, reviewing the latter talk page carefully, it is obvious that reporting users are only trying to push POV on the mentioned article by eliminating other contributors through AE instead of contributing to the mentioned article.Atabəy (talk) 16:18, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning User:Atabəy
In addition to Kansas Bear's complaint, I would like to bring to the attention of the administrators that Atabey's overall activities over the past few days have been a major cause for concern. I will try to provide the background in as concise a way as possible: last week, an administrator named Buckshot08 took the decision to delete three controversial articles relating to this conflict region (Nagorno-Karabakh), which, in his opinion, were too poorly sourced and of otherwise dubious quality.
In probable retaliation to his decision, Atabey and another editor, Tuscumbia, struck at the article in question as well as on the Kirovabad Pogrom page, adding the same three tags (neutrality, unreliable source, notability) and using the same exact arguments which were used against the aforementioned articles prior to their deletion by Buckshot. I believe that Atabey's as well as Tuscumbia's actions are, therefore, clear-cut violations of WP:POINT, i.e., they are being carried out in retaliation to Buckshot08's decisions. They have been editing tendentiously and Atabey himself has implicitly admitted that they are being done in reaction to Buckshot08's actions. These problems have been highlighted and are elaborated more fully on the article's talk page here.
I'm an admin, but am not familiar with how the A-A editing restrictions have been applied historically, so will sit this one out. However, from looking at Atabəy's recent contributions I think that sanctions would be fully justified. He or she is plainly edit warring in sensitive topics covered by ArbCom discretionary sanctions and their allegations about Buckshot06 (talk · contribs)'s actions being anything but those of an uninvolved admin are totally unjustified. Nick-D (talk) 03:51, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
As long as I know, in Turkish Wikipedia, Atabəy is known as a notorious propagandist with his POV of the Azerbaijani state nationalism. In Turkish Wikipedia we decided to delete these articles about unnotable massacres. In English Wikipedia he repeated same propaganda. Takabeg (talk) 12:38, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Among the most serious violations Atabey has committed has been his retaliation against an administrator's actions on other articles related to this area, most notably on the Maraghar Massacre and Kirovabad Pogrom articles. His edits on the former have not only exceeded the bounds of nPOV but have been written in so mendacious a manner as to skew the actual reality of the event (all of which is given in full detail on the article's talk page here). And for the record, Atabey's blatant flouting of the most basic Wikipedia rules as civility, battlefield mentality, ethnic battleground, etc. has been abundantly made clear on his talk page, here, here, here, and here.
Unfortunately, the same circumstances which led to Atabey's restrictions and topic bans from the above-mentioned articles seem to be in play here as well. After all these years, he still demonstrates a battlefield mentality toward his peers on Wikipedia and his most recent contribution on the Maraga Massacre are chock full of unhelpful, sarcastic comments and clearly retributive edits. That he has essentially admitted to carrying out WP:POINT attacks on at least the Maraga and Kirovabad Pogrom articles, has distorted the evidence on hand and gone out of his way to minimize intentionally the severity of those two events, speaks volumes. There's no reason why we should not give an editor a second, third, fourth or fifth chance but when an editor consistently displays so caustic, combative and vindictive an attitude which other uninvolved editors also find objection to, I don't know what other conclusion one can come to.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:23, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning User:Atabəy
Could we be clearer on which specific ArbCom remedy is being violated here? There's no notification of any restriction applying to that article on its talk page or editnotice and the respondent is mentioned in the A-A case only once as having been banned from another article. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:38, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
1RR violation and request to ban and restore
|Too many unarchivings is bad for one's health. This is stale; if there's a continuing problem it should be brought in a new thread. T. Canens (talk) 05:51, 14 January 2011 (UTC)|
|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
Request concerning Chesdovi
Please take a look at some of his comments:
At Seven Arches Hotel he had added that Jordans annexation was illegal , and I pointed out that there was no source saying it was illegal, he reply's: "Why are there only sources calling Israels establishments in the occupied West Bank illegal? Wouldn't be the 'ole UN ganging up against the Jews again, would it?". He then goes to the Palestine refugee camps article and says: "West Bank camps are illegal settlements" "The 19 West Bank camps built under Jordan's illegal occupation should be described as illegal. Let's have some consistency here."
He returns to Seven Arches Hotel and says: "No. You don't understand. It is only illegal for Israelis to build in the West Bank, not invading Arabs.", then later ads with the edit summary "more ganging up against Israel by the Arab bloc" - "The Arab bloc is at it again..." while linking to a Haaretz news article that has nothing to do with the Wikipedia article.
At the Syria article he removes a summary of a quote by Israels defense minister that Israel provoked clashes before the Six day war: , previously anther pov editor edit warred to remove this well sourced notable information and there was discussion at the talkpage:, anyone can clearly see that there is absolutely no consensus to remove this text, Chesdovi is aware of this as he commented there, yet he has today once again removed it from the Six day war section claiming that its "NPOV, UNDUE violations. Use detailed quotes for relevant subjects", (Gaming the system) and then reverted himself with the edit summary: "self rv, 2 early", so he self rv to not violate the 1rr, while planing to once again forcibly edit war and remove this text when there is no consensus at the talkpage to remove it.
At the Syria talkpage he also had continued his personal commentary from above: "Hama bloodbath was legal" - "I was looking for quotes about the Hama massacre, but found out that no international outcry was heard after the Syrian massacres. The United Nations did not condemn Syria's actions, no investigations were called for, and no Arab leaders came forward to condemn Assad's actions. Doh!"
Reply to No More Mr Nice Guy: No I explained my edit: , we have not added to the Israeli settlement articles that they are illegal yet we have sources representing the IC saying that they are illegal, yet Chesdovi did that to this article without a source, I have no problem with the edit if its sourced, but in that case then we must also ad to all Israeli settlement articles that they are illegal as a fact and not as a pov. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:51, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Reply to Chesdovi: What you are saying is not correct, I have not added to all settlement articles that they are "illegal", I explained my edit at the talkpage: "When we discussed and added the Israeli settlements illegality we had found reliable sources representing the international community, and even then we didn't say that they "were illegal" but that the IC view is that they were illegal, in this article we have no source showing the view from the international community, yet chesdovi added that the Jordanian annexation was "illegal" as a fact: " --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:44, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Reply to Mbz1 :Yes because according to the source The First Jewish Revolt: Archaeology, History and Ideology it did not start out as Jewish, Jews moved in there later, so therefore its false and cherry picking to refer to it as an "ancient Jewish city" in the first sentence of the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:39, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Reply to Ynhockey :What are you talking about? How is this  battleground mentality? The source The First Jewish Revolt: Archaeology, History and Ideology shows it did not start out as Jewish, Jews moved in there later, so therefore its false and cherry picking of history to refer to it as an "ancient Jewish city" in the first sentence of the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:01, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Reply to Tariqabjotu : You have misunderstood, I never called anyone "pro-Israeli" or "Jewish" in a pejorative fashion. User:Breein1007 edits was in support of the State of Israel, this is what I wanted to point out. I didn't mean anything insulting or bad against him about it. And how is it a "pejorative fashion" to call Bernard Lewis a Jewish historian? The same section called Shlomo Sand "Israeli", Here I call Silvio Berlusconi "Italian"  is this also a "pejorative fashion", you have misunderstood what I meant with those edits. I would also like to point out this comment by you:"I'm not particularly concerned how you feel about losing two of your pro-Israel allies." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:16, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Reply to Nsaum75: Nsaum75 is misrepresenting me, yes I pointed out there political positions because there was an editor who was blocked who had the same political position as them. And these two editors with the same political position wanted him unblocked. This is not degrading them, I was making other people who might want to unblock the blocked editor aware of that they share the same political position. All the comments I made at Zaatar, Hummus, Ani Medjools talkpage are all things that has already been brought up in a previous enforcement that Nsaum75 started: and I was topic banned. I promised I would not say those kinds of things again, and I have not. Those comments I made where inappropriate and I apology's for them. In those comments I also did not call Jews or Israelis "thieves", and I didn't use Israelis or Jews as pejoratives. I also explained my comment at Ani Medjools talkpage at the enforcement, Ani Medjool used language that was going to get him banned or blocked, so I told him not to say those kinds of things. Should I be banned for the same thing twice? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:09, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Nsaum75 keeps on adding the exact same things that was already brought up in the last enforcement, this is basically fishing. Yes I said Oren0 can not be considered neutral to the subject at the dispute at the Golan Heights article because of the things written at his userpage. The Golan Heights is occupied by Israel, the things written at his userpage shows him being supportive of Israel, so how could he be a neutral part or mediator if he supports one side? Would anyone ask User:Tiamut to mediate between a Palestinian and an Israeli? Both would have a conflict of interest, and this was my concern. And OrenO also closed the discussion in violation of Wikipedia guideline npov. Concerning the Mountain in GH discussion there was also a discussion at the Mount Paras article and Nsaum75 has only presented one diff where the situation and what I said is not presented correctly. We wanted to have the standardized names in English for the Mountains. The names used in Israeli and Jewish sources were almost all using the Hebrew names and not the standardized. This is why I said they weren't reliable for finding the standardized names in English, because Israeli and Jewish sources would most likely use the Hebrew names. Look for example here:  One Israeli source basically said that the Golan Heights is in Israel. So it is therefor written from an Israeli point of view instead of a world point of view and this was why I objected to it. See also this comment , the English sources, several of these CIA and Texas University maps, used other names then the Israeli or Jewish ones and therefor should be more reliable to represent the standardized names in English then sources from the country that occupies the Golan Heights which would most likely use the Israeli/Hebrew names. And the third part admin who was invited to close the discussion said the exact same thing as me, that Israeli sources would probably use the Hebrew names:  --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:52, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Chesdovi
Statement by Chesdovi
I must note that I am now unavaiable for comment for a few hours or till tomorrow and request that no actions are taken before I have had time to digest and response comprehensivley. Chesdovi (talk) 17:05, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Statement SD’s critique of my actions are described as being “troubling, disruptive and gaming the system”. While my edits my indeed trouble SD, I dispute that I have been disruptive or endeavored on “gaming the system”. SD cites various comments I made at four different talk pages. Disruption can occur at talk pages, but I think the complaint is more to do with style rather than content. Vassyana has said my remarks were “inflammatory.” Originally questioning her view, I have now clarifying the meaning of the word (comments that are provocative and arouse passions and emotions) I concede that some can indeed be construed to this end. But they were not made in a vacuum. Precisely the fact the all occurred within 24 hours shows this. They were frustrated remarks all made in response to SD’s unilateral removal of the word “illegal” at SAH. It was for this reason too that I made, what I still view as acceptable, remarks about legality at Palestine refugee camps. Why did the removal of this word set me off? Because from past experience, I have tried to reword sentences at pages about Israeli settlements, leaving out the word “illegal”. This caused a major stir, upon which the word was re-added. My attempt to add the word “illegal” to Turkish settlements was then removed too. SD was involved in both instances and then subsequently crusaded to get a “final consensus” in order to have the offending word appear at each Israeli Settlement page. Before my “illegal” addition at SAH, I posted at talk. No response. As soon as I add it, SD comes along and removes it, requesting sources, to which I agree to. (bear in mind that the hotel’s construction was possibility illegal as, from the article it would seem that it violated Article VII of the Israel-Jordan General Armistice Agreement of 1949). Anyhow, that is why I went on what seems to have been documented here as a rampage, but all remarks are totally linked to SD provocation. I therefore cannot view my subsequent comments number of talk pages as being a normal case of trolling (if I understand what Vassyana is referring to).
The comments about "Hama bloodbath was legal" and at "Syrian Air Force" were also made in response to SD not responding to my earlier reamarks about the Dayan quote. They were made with a sense of frustration, unknowing that such expressions are not in order. I mean, I have not and would not insult someone intently. I think that as SD has been lambasted similarly in the past, she is taking every chance of reporting other instances from the “other side”. I may have been getting carried away, which regrettably does happen from time to time, but I was not aware that it would result in an AE post. In retrospect, I concede comments were politically charged, highly incivil? If I offended the UN (“Wouldn't be the 'ole UN ganging up against the Jews again”) or to the Arab bloc therein (“The Arab bloc is at it again” – highlighted to illustrate the possibility why the existence of the Arab bloc and not a Jewish bloc at the UN has precluded the labeling of Jordan’s settlements as illegal) , I apologise. I apologise to Jordan for claiming its occupation was illegal outright without clarifying that it was merely a position held by the Arab League for a matter of weeks. (Now clarified somewhat with the help of Harlan; SD could easily have tried clarified this, but chose to delete the reference). I am sorry to the “UN, Arab leaders and the international community” for assuming their silence on Hama meant they acquiesced to it. Basically I fell into SD’s trap. All what SD has documented above stemmed from her initial provocation. If she felt comments of mine were troubling, she should have mentioned it to me, rather than gathering up as much evidence as possible to get me blocked or banned as she not a couple of weeks ago. Her reaction to my edits was intransigence and lack of will to discuss and compromise. Allegations that I am gaming the system are silly. She can tell from my edits at IL & IS that I am ready to comprehensibly discuss all points she picks up on. No personal insults were ever made, and unless I have to be punished for responding to SD in this way, I don’t see why any sanctions are needed. I can see from the reaction here that there is no room for banter here, well not when SD is involved. Chesdovi (talk) 19:07, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Comment about SD's previous actions: If we are discussing SD’s previous actions, let me add this . SD added a tag with concerns that “Its about a suburb of Damascus and there is nothing here about todays suburb.” Does that warrant a POV tag? She presumably took offence at the emphasis of the Jewish history of the village (“which should be a minor subject”) under the guise that there was no modern material. I added the expand tag to placate her, but it was really unwarranted. At Ancient underground quarry, Jordan Valley, reliable sources specifically described the cave as “the largest cave ever found in Israel”. SD was having none of this, , calling the National Gepographic "factually incorrect". Also has in the past refused to recognise the current status of the West Bank, . Chesdovi (talk) 10:33, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Vassyana, I cannot accept your conclusion. Whatever I say, you would reject. You are free to focus on these remarks and my other sins, but I have already stated on more than one occasion here that I understand in retropesct that flurry of comments was not in order and am willing to brush up my act in future. If you are unwilling to accept that, so be it. Chesdovi (talk) 11:29, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Jerusalem: Israel vs. West Bank
Comments by others about the request concerning Chesdovi
The editor creating a battleground atmosphere here is SD, by reverting information he knows is factually correct rather than just tagging it for sources (here are just a few    sources supporting Chesdovi's edit, which took me less than 5 minutes to find). He did the same thing in another topic when following Chesdovi's contributions a couple of months ago. Such bad faith revert-for-the-sake-of-reverting are just one of things that create a battleground atmosphere in the topic area.
Also, perhaps SD could let us know how he came upon this somewhat obscure article? Following users you don't like just so you can make their editing experience unpleasant enough to get a reaction and then reporting them (repeatedly) also has the stench of a battleground.
If a bit of sarcasm is not acceptable, Chesdovi has indicated he will stop using it. I won't go into the kind of much more blatant uncivil behavior that gets a pass around here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:35, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Adding material in the I-P conflict topic area without sources isn't something to be encouraged and people removing it shouldn't be accused of "bad faith revert-for-the-sake-of-reverting". Nothing personal in Chesdovi's case, lots of people do it, but we all know the rules and adding unsourced material in this topic area is like lighting a fuse. Sean.hoyland - talk 15:23, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
There is something really strange going on at Seven Arches Hotel. While most hotel articles tell how many stars a hotel has, in this article an IP editor – who seems to share Chesdovi's pov – is insisting the that the first sentence starts with a WP:COATRACK for an "illegal occupation" theory. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:12, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
It seems that Chesdovi has no clean hands here, althoug SD's description of what is happening at the Syria article is highly misleading given that there is anything but a consensus to include the quote; given that SDs editing in this section is highly biased; given that SD insists on including this quote without any disclaimer, depite the source making it clear that the quote is not seen as giving an unbiased summary of events by historians. Chesdovis excessive tagging, and edit-warring might violate the rules of Wikipedia, but the selecdtive use of sources as done by SD in this article is far more damaging to Wikipedia. Sadly though NPOV is not actively enforced here... Regarding the quote SD insists on including, without any qualifications. The same article he uses to cite the quote says "Historians took a cautious approach, noting that the conversations had not been a formal interview."; "Bruce Maddy-Weitzman, a senior researcher at the Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies in Tel Aviv, said he was troubled that the published conversations could overshadow other factors in the decision to strike Syria.", "He didn't intend to give a full, rounded interview, said Shabtai Teveth, a biographer of Dayan. Here he singles out the kibbutzim, which is not a very balanced picture". That shows pretty much that in at least this instance Chesdovi was in the right when it came to the content and SD blatantly violated NPOV.
Above in SD's response to Tariqabjotu, he says he's never called anyone Pro-Israeli or Jewish in a degrading fashion. I beg to differ. On several occasions he's tried to label editors as Pro-Israeli in an attempt to have their viewpoints dismissed(see comment above NMMNG's comment). AND on least three or four occasions used pejoratives to refer to Israelis and members of the Jewish faith, describing them as “thieves.” He has also used this term on off Wikipedia forums as well.   . The issue was brought up again recently and he was asked to retract those comments] but SD dismissed it saying "he had already recieved a topic ban for those types of comments".. SD also dismissed the results of an RfC at the Golan Heights article in part because the closing admin was Jewish. And then there was an instance where SD said sources written by Jews were not reliable for determining the English language name of a mountain in the Golan Heights. An Israeli may not speak english as his native tongue, but almost half of the Jews on Earth live in the United States and speak english as their native language.
There was also this nice little comment he left for a now blocked/banned user, whom he often edited in concert with on articles.
I have more diffs as well. But what I see is a long pattern of editing not designed to improve an encyclopedia but more or less to push a personal POV and possibly personal dislike of certain nations, races, religions and nationalities into articles, but done in such a manner that it flies under the radar most of the time, just like the advice he gave to Ani Medjool where he stated how one has to use "doublethinking" to make edits and achive goals. AE Sanctions can go both ways -- against the filer and the person being filed on. I would ask the admins to keep that in mind. Chesdovi has exhibited inappropriate behavior at times over a long span, but so has SD. I'm very reluctant to say it, but I'm concerned that SD may have a dislike for Jews, Israel, and Israelis that he is unable to separate from his editing, even though he may not use such direct terminology as often as in the past or he hides it using, in his words, "doublespeak" and "not saying what he means"...essentially gaming the system. His long-term edit history and comments (recent and past) shows a pattern, that unfortunately, should not be ignored. -- nsaum75 !Dígame¡ 17:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Addendum by Nsaum75
I offer my sincerest apologies to Supreme Deliciousness if my concerns stated here are unfounded or cause personal distress to him; I did not come to the decision to raise the issue of antisemitism lightly, however the long term pattern of editing, commentary, and behavior causes me concern. In reading Chesdovi's & Pantherskin's AE, and the accusations being made, I decided that my concerns should be placed in the open for Administrators to decide if they may warrant any merit.
AGF is one of the pillars upon which WP is built. Without it all of us lose credibility and respect. The IP article area, an arena in which I have not been a regular contributor for quite some time, suffers from a failure of AGF on a massive scale. This is evidenced by related articles' dysfunctionality and the constant re-appearance of its members on this enforcement board. We are all human, and all suffer from shortcomings, and I think everyone here recognizes that. But at times, events occur that draw into question the Good Faith nature of editors actions.
I do not claim to be unbiased, and the person who claims such is no friend to themselves or others. However I felt I can offer a different viewpoint as an editor who is aware of the ongoing problems in the project, but not a "regular" who is "caught up" in the moment or has something personal at stake. The vast majority of my edits, contributions and photos, lay outside of the IP realm. In fact, although I have contributed hundreds of photos to the project, I now refuse to donate photos from the middle east because they may be considered contentious by some or because they may express a personal bias of mine that I am be unaware of.
Again, I offer my deepest apologies if my comments here have caused offense or distress to SD or others. I also ask for forgiveness if the issues that concern me turn out to be innocuous. However, given the gravity of my concerns and the complete failure of the editing process in IP articles, I felt they should be in the open for their merits be decided upon. I wouldn't be doing anyone, or the project, a favor if I ignored such concerns. -- nsaum75 !Dígame¡ 16:58, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
Chesdovi is a good contributor. When it's his area of expertise he's excellent. But some of this is getting a bit silly. No one, or at least very few, editors in the topic area are politically "neutral" (whatever that would be here), that's fine, but sensitive issues need careful treatment, not more disruption. When Chesdovi added nine possible suggestions to the "Judaism and Violence" article (concerned with religiously mandated/attitudes toward violence) in quick succession, implying that editors were looking to make Judaism more violent than it is, I was not entirely amused (only partially, it is funny stuff although off base). When he started calling out specific editors and implying that Jewish theologians didn't care about events in which only Jews died, the intent was crystal clear. Something needs to happen. The last ban
Result concerning Chesdovi
|Stale. Regardless of the merit of the request at the time, Pantherskin has not edited since the end of 2010. If warranted, once he begins editing again, a new request can be filed. NW (Talk) 02:54, 14 January 2011 (UTC)|
|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Pantherskin
There was no consensus at the talkpage to remove it.
He was blocked for slow motion edit warring.
He then left Wikipedia for a couple of months, then he returned and without any new consensus or any new discussion once again reverts it and removes the Dayan summary:
And now since his return he has once again continued to edit war and remove it again: anyone can clearly see that there is no new consensus at the talkpage to remove it  so Pantherskin is continuing to forcibly remove it.
Reply to Mbz1, I did not "erase any reference to historical Jewish presence in the city", With this edit  I removed in the first sentence that its a Jewish city because the first source in the article shows that Gamla did not start out as a Jewish city. It is therefor incorrect to refer to it as a "Jewish city" in the first line of the article when Jews later moved in there.
In this edit  I added that Atarot Airport is located in East Jerusalem, I see now that I shouldn't have added "East" before "Jerusalem International Airport", that was a mistake.
Whats wrong with identifying a Jewish historian as Jewish? The same section calls Shlomo Sand an "Israeli", so what is the problem? In this edit  I identify Silvio Berlusconi as "Italian", should I be banned for that to? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:16, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Reply to Pantherskin: What Pantherskin has done here below is to cherry pick a couple of sources that supports his pov, Moshe Dayans quote was published in 1997 and the source used is NYT  so its new information. And who stopped Pantherskin from adding other relevant information? This is not a reason to remove the summary of the Dayan quote. The quote is also brought up in several books: p 154 "Israeli security was the alleged reason for military action in Syrian Golan Heights, but conflict over resources and farmland were important issues in themselves. According to Moshe Dayan..." "Israel intentionally precipitated hostile exchanges with Syrian farmers in order to justify larger military adventures in the Heights", p 355 p 47
And there is no source presented by Pantherskin that contradicts what Dayan said. But there are also other sources talking about the same thing, see for example:p 43 . He removed all the text about that Israel provoked the clashes, and turned it into a Syrian claim, this means nothing. This is a content dispute about something he doesn't like personally and he wants it removed. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:39, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Pantherskin
Statement by Pantherskin
Please note that this a general overview article of Syria. What was previously in the article on Israel-Syria relations before the Six-day war was a single quote by Moshe Dayan. The quote was sourced to a NYT article that said "Historians took a cautious approach, noting that the conversations had not been a formal interview.". What means that this quote at best only gives a partial picture, and at worst is misleading. Nothing about these doubts about the quote in the article, and nothing about what is typically included in history books on this time period, i.e. the shelling of Israeli settlements, the incursions by Palestinian militants into Israel that were sponsored by Israel, and different interpretations of terms of the status of the demilitarized zone between Syria and Israel.
Only including this quote without any disclaimer thus violates NPOV. Even worse, only including this quote is giving a biased view of Syrian-Israeli history given that pretty much every history book that discusses this time period gives little attention if any to Moshe Dayan's quote or the substance of it (see for example  (page 51,  (page 192),  (page 88),  (page 58ff.),  (page 289) etc).
A few days ago I removed the quote and replaced it by a summary of this time period, taken from reputable sources (see  - the edit Supreme Deliciousness complains about). I invite every editor to check the neutrality. I tried my best, including Syria's defense that it cannot be held accountable for actions by others, and that Israeli was isolated in its view on the status of the demilitarized zone. Given that this is an overview article I also removed the Dayan quote, partly because of its dubious nature, partly because reliable sources make it clear that other events are seen as more important by historians. Nevertheless the short discussion on the status of the demilitarized zone and excursions by Israeli armored tractors summarizes the essence of the Dayan quote - according to the Israeli interpretation these excursions were legal, according to the Syrian interpretation they were provocations. The quote might suggest that the Syrians were right, but as historians are doubtful I left the quote out.
I do not wish this AE request to become another battleground for the usual pro/anti-Israel/Zionist whatever warriors, but I understand that this is what inevitably will happen. All I can say about this request is that I tried my best to improve the article and to bring this small section into compliance with NPOV. Supreme Deliciousness stand in the discussion on the talk page seemed to be that because this quote can be sourced it should be included, and that if there are doubts or opposing viewpoints someone else should work on finding them and including them. But that's not how good articles are written, because then - instead of looking at what good sources say about this time period - I would solely look at what sources say about this specific quote.
Reply to Supreme Deliciousness I find it hard to take this response serious as it rather proves my point. I did not cherry-picked my sources. I simply looked for academic books on the history of Syria/Israel and looked at what they write about this time period. One, to find out about events. Second, to learn how differents events should be weighted in an overview article. He comes with articles on very specific events, at least one from a a partisan source, none from anything resembling a serious and authorative source. The would be hardly be sufficient to establish events, and even if they would they would not tell us anything about how to weight these events in the larger context of things. Of course presenting these kinds of newspaper articles is a good way of using wikipedia policies to subvert WP:NPOV because hey it can be sourced and should thus be included. And seriously "something he doesn't like personally and he wants it removed"?? I made a case using sources, and that's what I get as an answer??
Reply to George Al-Shami Highest caliber of POV-pushing. Unabashed extremist pro-Zionist stance. He will cook up some disingenuous argument. You are not even presenting a single diffs that somehow would support your claims!
Reply to MalcolmMcDonald And can you show a diff and explain why this diff violates NPOV? Or can you just throw mud in the hope that it sticks.
Some evidence for disruptive editing by Supreme Delicousness This recent edit by Supreme Deliciousness,  exemplifies what I see as disruptive editing. A book published by a scholarly publisher and written by Michael Oren, an academic historian, is suddenly not good enough to establish the historical fact that Syria supported Palestinian raids into Israel (note that this fact can also be found in countless other scholarly history books). Instead it needs to be attributed to Michael Oren personally, as if this is a controversial claim, and Michael Oren needs to be described as the Israeli ambassador, and not as the scholar he is. I have no idea what Supreme Delicousness motiviation for this edit is, but it looks pointy and disruptive.
Comments by others about the request concerning Pantherskin
Biophys brought up the argument of "content over conflict" in the immediate section prior. SD was topic banned from I-P related articles for 30 days (April 30 to May 30) of this past year. During the 30 days he was banned he only made TWO types of contributions. One type was to forum-shop over 10 admins in an attempt to find someone willing to re-read a battle-field laiden SPI case against a user he had been involved with numerous conflicts with (essentially carry on the battle). The second type was 10 edits to ONE article about Playstation 3 games. He made two edits to potential IP related articles, but self reverted so as not to violate his topic ban. Those edits can be viewed here..
In my opinion, an editor who is here to contribute constructively to an encyclopedia will find other areas to edit if they are banned. An editor who is here just to create conflict and push a POV, will just drop out until their ban is over, or go to AE/SPI and try to punish their opponents while they are "down for the count".
Result concerning Pantherskin
I am currently looking over all of the diffs provided. I am also looking at the article histories and discussions being referenced. There's a lot to review here, so please be patient with me. One thing I note is that there is a lot of personalized, insulting back and forth going on here. Bringing that here is an extremely unwise choice. A wise choice would be to take a breath, cool down, self-edit and apologize. --Vassyana (talk) 03:48, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
|This discussion has been blanked as a courtesy. The discussion is available in the page history.|