Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive85

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Passionless[edit]

Passionless blocked indefinitely by HJ Mitchell (talk · contribs), rendering the matter moot. T. Canens (talk) 22:33, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Passionless[edit]

User requesting enforcement 
Broccolo (talk) 18:51, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
Passionless (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated 
Discretionary sanctions

Violation of npov, incivility, battleground behavior.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 
  1. [1] "It seems like you and HJ Mitchell are in bed together" (assumption of a bad faith, incivility)
  2. [2] "Your strong bias is obvious, and that bleeds heavily into the article which is why the tags are required." (incivility)
  3. [3] tagging the article with "Unencyclopedic" and "Unbalanced" tags in spite at least the three editors have agreed the article has no such problems. The edit summary was "adding tags, how about you try and work with me instead of against this time"
  4. [4] files spurious report on her blocking administrator.
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
  1. [5] Warning by HJ Mitchell (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
  2. [6] Warning by Materialscientist (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
  3. [7] Warning by Dayewalker (talk · contribs)
Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction
topic ban on I/P conflict related articles and the articles about U.S. military
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 
On March 7, 2011 user:Passionless was blocked for 48 hours for edit warring and inserting POV to article Adoption of Ala'a Eddeen.Examples of their POV are: first example "American-led invasion and occupation of Iraq in which hundreds of thousands of Afghans have been killed"; second example "During the occupation of Iraq, approximately 150 Iraqi children illegally are sold to foreigners each year for the purpose of adoption, sexual exploitation and servitude. "
  • Their first edit after the block expired was tagging the article with "Unencyclopedic" and "Unbalanced" tags. They did it in spite that at least 3 editors excluding her blocking administrator have agreed that the POV they added before their block should be removed.
  • In spite of being asked by many users to let it go the user replaced the content of their user and talk page with "Can someone please show me the diffs of me edit warring, for which I was blocked and accused of by many editors, at Adoption of Ala'a Eddeen?')" [8]; [9]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 
diff link

Discussion concerning Passionless[edit]

Statement by Passionless[edit]

This will take awhile, but I will begin,

@ Jimbo, These are the two sections which I was sourcing which are related to the adoption of ala'a Eddeen. "When a French NGO named Arche de Zoe [1] [2] attempted to airlift children from Chad for adoption in France, Ann Veneman, Executive Director of UNICEF, stated: “It is unacceptable to see children taken out of their home countries without compliance with national and international laws.” Actually, it is unacceptable to take children out of their homelands with or without laws. Foreign adoption and child trafficking in Iraq was unheard of before the 2003 war and occupation. Iraqis fear that children are being trafficked for sex employment and organ transplant market. This is highly possible in light of the fact that an interior ministry official, Hassan Alaa, has reported to Al-Jazeera, that “government forces have captured 15 human trafficking gangs.”[3]" and "This statement denotes that foreign adoption, nevermind child trafficking, as a result of Iraqi law, has been irrelevent practices to citizens of the USA. But from the history of US presence in Iraq since 2003, we can be certain that respect for Iraqis and Iraqi law by the US is non-existing. Despite the published statement on US Embassy’s website, there have been exceptions for USA military personnel. According to an article (dated December 2007) by FOXNews.com [10], Captain Scott Southworth was able to obtain custody of an Iraqi handicapped boy despite being unmarried! The article was pervaded with propaganda and patronage. This involvement by the military reminds us of France’s case when NGO Arche de Zoe’s members “were granted access to French military aircraft and facilities in Chad” to help airlifting African children into France, a case that luckily did not succeed and the children were not airlifted."
These two paragraphs contain the essence of the criticism section. While the article does not mention the adoptee by name, it does mention the adopter by name and the nationality and disability of the adoptee, with a link to an article about the adoption, in which Ala'a is named 40 times. I knew the source was not the best, though I believed it to be above an SPS, but I only speak english, and my search engines are highly biased towards western sources which rarely go against themselves, so after hours more of searching that was the best I found in english. Passionless -Talk 21:18, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
@ All, yes I can be slightly uncivil (obviously mad in writting, yet no personal attacks) while I am being what I perceive to be unjustly blocked.
Comment by Gatoclass[edit]

Per T. Canens, this case is out of process since the edits in question do not fall under the domain of ARBPIA. Gatoclass (talk) 22:14, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Passionless[edit]

  • My interactions with Passionless have left me with an acutely dim view of him. But I have only interacted with him in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator, and only in the context of attempts to topic-ban him; in such situations, users are expected to be irate or discourteous. That said, his ongoing feud with Mbz1 leads me to think that we ought to ban them both from interacting with one another. I also agree with the filing party that conduct such as that in Passionless' comment here is unacceptable. I am for now abstaining from actioning this complaint; I have sanctioned Passionless previously and been active in some recent AE and other threads relating to him, and would prefer that a fresh perspective take the final decision here. AGK [] 19:02, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
  • While I agree with AGK on his assessment of the edits at issue, I'm not sure that they can be dealt with under ARBPIA. Perhaps a community-based restriction would be more appropriate? T. Canens (talk) 19:12, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
  • I just wanted to offer a quick analysis of the edit that led to this argument. Passionless characterized this as "Do not remove relevant sourced information that breaks no policy." But it is very important to note that the first "source" doesn't even mention Ala'a Eddeen at all. Indeed, according to google, the word "Eddeen" does not appear at the entire website of the alleged source at all. (There is a brief mention of the case, but no substantive remarks.) The other sources are even worse, as they are about entirely unrelated events and are used to implicitly allege (in a BLP context) that the child was sold, used for sexual exploitation, etc. This is outrageous conduct. While it may be possible to argue that well-sourced criticism of this adoption should be included, it is difficult to characterize this sourcing as anything remotely close to that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:21, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning Passionless[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

HJ Mitchell has blocked Passionless indefinitely. Therefore, this request is now moot. T. Canens (talk) 22:33, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Gnevin[edit]

Request withdrawn.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Gnevin[edit]

User requesting enforcement 
Mooretwin (talk) 23:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
Gnevin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated 
WP:ARBCOM/TROUBLES#Final remedies for AE case
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 
  1. [10] First revert
  2. [11] Second revert - breaches 1RR and thereby the Arbcom remedy
  3. [12] First revert
  4. [13] Second revert - breaches 1RR again and thereby the Arbcom remedy for the second time
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
  1. [14] Warning by mooretwin (talk · contribs)
  2. [15] Warning by mooretwin (talk · contribs)
  3. [16] Warning by mooretwin (talk · contribs)
  4. [17] Warning by mooretwin (talk · contribs)
  5. [18] Warning by mooretwin (talk · contribs)
Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction
Content for others to decide
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 
The Arbcom remedy applies to "All articles related to The Troubles", which is defined as "any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland". The GAA article, and the edits in question relate directly to Irish nationalism and indirectly to the Troubles.
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 
[19]

Discussion concerning Gnevin[edit]

Statement by Gnevin[edit]

The stretch to include the GAA in the scope of the trouble arb com is ridiculous this is a sporting article not a troubles or Irish nationalism article, anyway I undid the edits are requested by the user Gnevin (talk) 23:34, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Gnevin[edit]

I would like to withdraw this request as Gnevin has now self-reverted. Mooretwin (talk) 23:38, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning Gnevin[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

NickOrnstein[edit]

Ryoung122 reminded of the scope of his topic ban; NickOrnstein warned about edit warring. Admins may choose to notify forum participants of the discretionary sanctions. EdJohnston (talk) 17:20, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning NickOrnstein[edit]

User requesting enforcement 
David in DC (talk) 03:13, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
NickOrnstein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated 
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#Enforcement of discretionary sanctions
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 
  1. [20] I delete citation to "source" which fails WP:RS and is explicitly prohibited by WOP WikiProject Notability and sourcing guidance.
  2. [21] I'm reverted, with "Other must agree" edit summary
  3. [22] The next day, given that this is info about a living person, I try again, with explanatory edit summary: "Reply to edit summary in reversion. Others do agree. It's explicit in WOP WikiProject Notability and Sourcing Guidance. If you wish to generate a new consensus, please start that process on the WikiProject talk page. Please don't ignore."
  4. [23] I add reliable sources for Jan Goosenaerts, taken directly from subject's page. I leave the other two items on the list without sources. I resolve, to myself, to look for sources for them Not as easy to find, since they have no articles.
  5. [24] I discover one Jan G. source is a dead link, and mark it so, indicating I'll do the same on the JG article after I review the other links.
  6. [25] I mark deadlink on JG page
  7. [26] Nick reverts me again. No edit summary.
  8. [27] I request Nick stop edit-warring, on the article's talk page.
  9. [28] I make the same request on Nick's talk page.
  10. [29] I start this thread, at AN/I. RodhullandEmu tells me I'm in the wrong place. So does Resident Anthropologist, directing me here and marking the thread "deferred"
  11. [30] Before I see advice from R&E and Deferral with direction here from RA, I notify Nick of AN/I thread.
  12. [31] This series of edits reflect wiki-stalking in realtime. When I realized Nick was going behind me, nearly minute by minute, reverting what I was doing (deleting citations to the WOP Yahoo group and Louis Epstein's Oldest Human beings list, with the customary zero edit summaries) I stopped. But I'm now convinced a more serious sanction than first proposed is in order.
  13. [32] Still more edit-warring.

  1. [33] Similar pattern, slightly earlier, on another longevity page. I delete OHB list with edit summary: "Not a reliable source, per WOP WikiProject notability and sourcing guidance and, more importantly WP:RS. The page disclaims its own accuaracy and sells books before getting to its 1st entry."
  2. [34] Nick reverts. Edit summary: "Others must agree." I leave it alone. Then, the pattern repeats as related above and I decide it's time to get Admins involved.
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Warnings explicit in ArbCom case and implicit in my diffs above. Also

  1. [35]
  2. [36]
  3. [37]
  4. [38]
Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction
Admonition, with promise of increasingly strict enforcement for subsequent edit-warring. Two week block, followed by one month topic ban. Impositions of increasingly strict blocks and bans for repeated violations therafter. I'm not yet prepared to conclude Nick's incorrigible, but he's makin' it awful hard to maintain that stance.David in DC (talk) 03:51, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 
I think Nick's approach to collaboration and consensus building is best viewed by looking through his edit history. Most edits are made without summaries at all. Others give a topic-banned editor's name, after the ban, as authority for edits. Others are simply dismissive of others' views. In a contemporaneous MfD discussion about a project subpage I have proposed be deleted or userfied (a page CalvinTy and I have been improving despite my view that it's out-of-bounds,) Nick offered this contribution to the discussion.
[39] Explicit refusal to follow the rules and the ArbCom decision
Reply to EJ: Combine: "The majority of Wiki editors would agree that these new "rules" are ridiculous. I am getting support from many others. I, along with others, have survived Bulten's reign. Bulten tried the same thing, removing WOP citations. But he failed, and got banned for one year." with these diffs, wikistalking and reverting my edits, in realtime, and I can't see how they add up to anything but an explicit refusal to follow the rules: [40], [41], [42], [43], [44], [45], [46]. David in DC (talk) 22:48, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Here, Nick reverted my edit with a jaw-dropping edit summary. User:Amatulic reverted Nick's reversion. Amatulic has indicated that he is acting as an admin on these pages, to enforce the ArbCom decision. As of earlier today, Nick is still making edits Amatulic is having to revert to enforce the ArbCom decision. David in DC (talk) 22:43, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
This thread is truly distressing. I'm grateful to IMJ for unearthing it, but it will cause me genuine fear, for some time to come. I think it needs to be considered, with great care, by whoever closes this AE request.
Ummmmm, topic-ban violation?

I concur with EJ's proposed result, including his proposed amendment, per Amatulic. David in DC (talk) 13:52, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [47] David in DC (talk) 13:33, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Discussion concerning NickOrnstein[edit]

Statement by NickOrnstein[edit]

Frankly, I have not replied to a lot of "wars". It seems pointless replying back on List of disputed supercentenarian claimants, or anywhere of that matter, due to these battles lasting for months (since about October). I have not agreed with removing WOP sources (except from List of oldest living people by nation as of today), many correspondents are on the WOP. There are loads worth of articles with links on that site. So much important information is on the WOP. The group itself is almost as old as Wikipedia. World's Oldest People group is on Longevity claims, along with several other articles. The group is also a backup incase a link becomes dead.

I haven't even bothered to read every little detail regarding the ongoing battles of Bulten vs. Young in the past, especially the fight over the WOP being "reliable". I am going to continue keeping WOP sources, unless there is a source on the internet that is reliable and can replace it. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 00:09, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Blogs are still surviving on some of the articles, some twitter and facebook links were on List of living supercentenarians for months. WOP deserves to stay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NickOrnstein (talkcontribs) 00:18, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

In the future, I will put forward an attempt to reply with "wars" and edits.

See my edit here [48], if it shines any light on you guys. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 01:00, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Question for Nick... I am not sure what you mean by "I will put forward an attempt to reply with "wars" and edits." It reads (to me) like you are saying that you are refusing to discuss the issue on talk pages, and will instead respond by continuing to edit war. Was this your intent? Please clarify. Blueboar (talk) 15:27, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
Alright, I can't edit any more on disputed claimants. The war is over. I fought till the end. I will never support what dave, jude, or any other person says about deleting this article, along with WOP being unreliable. These sources have been used here ever since I came since I began my interests in longevity on Wikipedia in early August 2008. Probably even years before that. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 11:59, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
This battleground mentality, in this case literally, is a large part of the reason why there's an active AE thread against you. You've been pointed to several places explaining why we're no longer using these sources the same way; none of us want to drag you through this, but you've got to start working with us, not against us. We're all supposed to be striving towards the same goal- building an encyclopedia- and all you need to do is recognize that. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:58, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning NickOrnstein[edit]

My only concern with NickOrnstein is his apparent inability to provide a rationale for his position other than a brief comment here and there as well as his inability to collaborate with other editors as he appears to have the view of "the other editor is wrong, therefore, I will be bold and revert without further comment or explanation". He has not justified why he reverted my attempts to add references to the WikiProject's World's Oldest People's Future supercentenarians subpage in the section I made to elicit a response from NickOrnstein. He has not made a response to date, and he is fully aware of David in DC and my efforts to add citations to the future supercentenarians subpage. So I feel that, at least, NickOrnstein should be warned to be more cooperative & collaborative, than to be bold all the time. Cheers, CalvinTy 18:35, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Melissa.vp198[edit]

I'd like to get clarification one one thing, if I may. Am I to understand that the RSN [[49]] page is concerned with the reliability of the GRG only and not the Louis Epstein pages, which I believe is what many of these edit disagreements are about? If so, should it be considered there as well? Epstein verifies cases in a very similar way to the GRG, although granted his work his barely ever cited in news reports etc. Maybe someone could give me a brief rationale as to why this is explicitly not a reliable source (ie not covered by the RSN page, where consensus seems to be leaning towards thinking the GRG is a reliable source)? In terms of NickOrnstein and his editing approach explicitly, from observation I would say he does need to try and be more collaborative. --Melissa.vp198 (talk) 19:01, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by Itsmejudith[edit]

Since the Arbcom finished, Ryoung122 has continued to manipulate a number of editors as meatpuppets in this area. I cannot currently add the links because they are blocked by the spam filter, but they are found easily by Googling for "110 Club Wikipedia". The editors colluding include, but may not be limited to, User:Brendanology, User:Melissa.vp198, User:NickOrnstein, User:DerbyCountyinNZ, User:Cam46136, and User:CalvinTy. This is probably the most blatant case of off-wiki collusion ever. Please take the time to review the pages you will find, which contain numerous personal attacks on editors, and discussion of tactics to subvert the ArbCom decision and continue to push points of view on Wikipedia. Ryoung122's topic ban must be converted into a general indefinite ban, and the meatpuppets should also be banned. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Itsmejudith, shame on you for making FALSE accusations AGAIN. FACT: I first met Brendanology on Wikipedia...he is not someone I ever met personally and not someone I "recruited." So he can't be a "meatpuppet," who is by definition a newbie someone brings to Wikipedia in order to get them to help with "i-votes." FACT: I first met Nick Ornstein on Wikipedia...he is not somone I ever met personally and not someone I "recruited." I challenge you to do your research before making accusations. Question: how long have these two been on Wikipedia? Over a year? Over two years? Clearly not meatpuppets. That's what I thought.
Further: I am a real person, everyone knows who Robert Young is. No one knows who Itsmejudith is, that's a fake ID. So it's a lot easier for you to claim that I have a connection simply because everyone knows who I am.
Things need to calm down..please. Take a step back, and reconsider what you said and whether it was the right thing to do, or not.Ryoung122 03:50, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Itsmejudith, since you are accusing me as a meatpuppet, I should note that I am not a new user and have had a Wikipedia account since 2006. I am only more active in last few days to help assist with the WikiProject subpage and with the position that GRG is a reliable source on my own accord. The recommendation for us to be banned because we also talked about this discussion in a non-Wikipedia space is akin for me to recommend that you are banned for attacking me here. Regards, CalvinTy 18:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Also, I am quite cognizant of what I say in any space on the Internet, and I have not made any personal attack on any Wikipedia editor. We are not subverting any ArbCom decision at all. Rather, we are trying to make sure that we understand everyone's point of view and how to defend the case that GRG is a reliable source among other points to defend. Please cease and desist in quoting things out of context. To repeat, I have neither made any personal attacks anywhere on any Wikipedia editor nor I have attempted to "subvert the ArbCom decision". I pride myself in being neutral and trying to understand various point of views, including yours, David in DC, A Quest for Knowledge, and all others. What you are doing here is extremely upsetting. You should consider retracting your comment, please. Thank you, CalvinTy 18:28, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
For clarification, as I'm an administrator on The 110 Club, I do not believe that DerbyCountyinNZ is a member of our forum so I'm not sure if this is a case of mistaken identity by Itsmejudith. I'll advise DerbyCountyinNZ on his talk page on this comment made by Itsmejudith. CalvinTy 18:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Looking back to the discussions on your website, I see that DerbyCountyinNZ is regarded as a sympathetic outsider and is not a member of the group, so I do retract that one. I note also that NickOrnstein, who self-identifies as a teenager, was insulted on your website for apparently taking too soft a line in the ArbCom. There have been disparaging comments made about David in DC, and in my own case there was a suggestion that someone "lived near" me, i.e. they might attempt to out me or contact me directly (rather than through wiki-enabled email, which would be acceptable). There have been calls for particular kinds of editing to try and get round the ArbCom restrictions. In your case, perhaps you are one of the manipulators rather than the manipulated. Whatever the case, this kind of collusion is utterly unacceptable and I reiterate my request for bans of those involved. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:03, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Just to let you know, itsmejudith, "The 110 Club" forum is not my website. I am just a forum member who became an administrator last year by consensus over there. I'm not responsible for what other members have said in public. I can only advise them not to attack any person directly anywhere including Wikipedia, which I have just done so here: z3.invisionfree.com/The_110_Club/index.php?showtopic=1781&view=findpost&p=2785827. If someone else has insulted NickOrnstein for taking too soft a line in the ArbCom, I can only scold the person on the forum. (Please note that I was not active during the ArbCom as I'm extremely busy with a family of 4 girls, three of them under the age of 2 -- twin girls and newborn girl). I obviously shouldn't provide my opinion on your comment of the collusions since I'm a biased party but I am only concerned that you are taking off-wiki discussions as "collusions", and "therefore, those actions merit a Wikipedia ban".
Regarding myself, can you kindly support your case that I may be a manipulator rather than being manipulated? I feel that I am here on my own accord in my own beliefs, and that I have not recommended anyone to do something specific on Wikipedia other than updating the forum members of the ongoing discussions (and expressing my opinions). Whether RYoung122 have attempted to encourage editors to do something on Wikipedia, which may be considered by some as collusion such as yourself, I cannot answer that because RYoung122 is also an administrator at the website as well. So I cannot discipline RYoung122 for his actions on the forum, only the founder of the forum can do so. Hope this helps clarify some things. Thanks, CalvinTy 19:27, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
WP:Meatpuppet "When several like-minded editors hold a discussion outside of Wikipedia about an on-going dispute within Wikipedia, with the purpose of swaying the consensus". The 110 Club was doing exactly that before, during and after the ArbCom case. You were fully involved, so were the other editors I've mentioned above, except for DerbyCountyinNZ. It is not allowed, you knew it was not allowed, you just didn't know that your discussions could so easily be found. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:36, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
This is going off-tangent from the original request here, Itsmejudith. I have looked at WP:Meatpuppet, and I did not see that quote: "When several like-minded editors hold a discussion outside of Wikipedia about an on-going dispute within Wikipedia". Are you making up quotes, Itsmedjudith? In any case, to actually quote WP:Meatpuppet, "Meatpuppetry is the use of editors as proxies to sway consensus. While Wikipedia assumes good faith, especially for new users, the recruitment of new editors for this purpose is prohibited." None of the editors in question were new editors. Some editors simply took the initiative on The 110 Club to discuss and defend points to other EXISTING Wikipedia editors so that the other existing editors could chime in with their OWN opinion -- not to sway consensus -- because they still presented their own point of view just as I have done myself independently regardless of what point of views (and opinions) RYoung122 and other editors may have. Please do not make assumptions where none exists, itsmejudith. You still have not stated a guideline that says what The 110 Club is doing "is not allowed" so how can we presume to know that what we are doing before, during, and after the ArbCom case "is not allowed"? I believe none of us are of belief that our discussions "would not be so easily be found". RYoung122 fully knew that eyes from Wikipedia would be monitoring The 110 Club, and I do see that The 110 Club has been mentioned in several ArbCom cases over the years. So please stop making assumptions that "we just didn't know that our discussions could be easily be found". Are you here only to argue for the sake of arguing, itsmejudith? It appears that way, and this is my last comment here on this matter because this is WAY off-tangent. Cheers, CalvinTy 20:12, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
FYI, I regard it as highly offensive to suggest that I have had any offline collusion with any members of the 110 club, whose very existence I was unaware of until being notified of this totally unfounded accusation. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 20:45, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, DerbyCountyinNZ, that was an error on my part, and there is no accusation of meatpuppetry against you. The rest of it is obviously completely against all our rules and action needs to be taken immediately. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:00, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Since an uninvolved administrator, EdJohnston, has chimed in regarding the meatpuppetry discussion -- I am guessing that the tangent issue of meatpuppetry that itsmejudith have accused several people, including myself, as a valid subject to continue talking about here. In that case, I evidently will continue to defend my own position vigorously that I did not collude with any members of The 110 Club to sway them into consensus on any article disputes. Heck, in fact, if anyone would check my contribs, they can see that I was mostly a lurker on Wikipedia since 2006 with minor edits here and there starting in 2009 up to 21 Feb 2011. Then, on 25 Feb 2011, I began to learn more about how Wikipedia works with guidelines and policies and have been quite active since 25 Feb 2011 (60 contribs since then). I have not been part of any past article disputes or even on the most recent ArbCom decision that was handed out on 17 Feb 2011. The current ones where I have provided comments on are the one at RSN about GRG, and the MfD about the potential deletion of the subpage on one of the WikiProject WOP pages, as well as this AE case here. Again, I cannot defend or vouch for any other editors who are also members on The 110 Club forum as I would have to rescue myself since I'm a forum administrator on the forum & I'm not liable for what members say in a public forum.
EdJohnston, my frustration that is showing here is because some people has a habit of making generalizations, or taking things out of context, or simply state their opinion as facts. Here, itsmejudith, she says, "The rest of it is obviously completely against all our rules and action needs to be taken immediately." As you can see, I already have read about WP:Meatpuppetry and could not find something to justify itsmejudith's position that The 110 Club forum members have "completely broken all our rules" and that "the 110 Club was doing exactly that before, during and after the ArbCom case. You were fully involved, so were the other editors I've mentioned above, except for DerbyCountyinNZ. It is not allowed, you knew it was not allowed, you just didn't know that your discussions could so easily be found." She stated things as fact when that cannot be the case if we don't even know what we are in violation of (and I'm ignoring the part where she said I was fully involved in the ArbCom case when I was nowhere in the picture). Just having an off-site discussion about Wikipedia disputes does not in and of itself constitutes a sufficient level of collusion in regards to swaying the consensus in article disputes. Note that I'm using words similar to the ArbCom's Finding of Facts #3, which I quote here: "Membership in or affiliation with the Gerontology Research Group, or any other group named in the evidence to this case, does not in and of itself constitute a substantive conflict of interest with regard to the editing of articles on longevity topics." In my honest opinion, I believe that every editor here (those who are also a member of The 110 Club forum) have made their point of views or opinions on their own accord and that nobody at The 110 Club explicitly told any particular editor "what to say" or "what to do" to influence decisions & disputes on Wikipedia. Sure, we expressed our own opinions, and I think that's where it may have upset itsmejudith where she saw some opinions by some members on the forum talking in a negative sense about some editors here (such as "what he said was silly and unnecessary"). I can be a motormouth just like I am in person, so I'll stop for now. :-) Sorry for the long comment, EdJohnston. I hope you are able to see the whole picture here. Thanks, CalvinTy 05:28, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
(To EdJohnston). The dispute is everything related to the Longevity suite of articles that were the subject of the ArbCom case. This behaviour goes back years. If you look at how the Wikiproject World's Oldest People was originally established, you can see that the editors then regarded it as a closed cabal and an extension of their groups on Yahoo! and elsewhere. One of the "gerontology" "experts", Louis Epstein, left the encyclopedia early on after arguing vigorously that he had the right not to put a space after a full stop or comma - norms were not quite so settled then, and Epstein's efforts in tracking oldest people seem to be in competition with the GRG group. Epstein continues to make swipes against Wikipedia. Ryoung122 was indefinitely blocked and then was allowed back. The ArbCom case concentrated on his behaviour after his return and has led to his indefinite topic-ban. It's clear that the editors are carrying on in exactly the same way, i.e. insisting that Wikipedia be an extension of their online forums. I couldn't post the links because their 110 Club forum is a blacklisted site, and now if they have protected the pages we might perhaps be able to get them through the Wayback machine or something? Itsmejudith (talk) 10:09, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Actually, just the Google search results show you that this forum was used to discuss, and try and influence, Wikipedia disputes. [50] You can see that the group discussed post ArbCom tactics, that Ryoung122 urged another editor to challenge actions by me and David in DC, that during the ArbCom they were ganging up on User:JJBulten. And in this Google search we see a thread entitled "David in DC attacks, where is everyone?". Absolutely blatant. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:22, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
By the way, we can add User:Pascar to the list. S/he just reverted me when I removed material related to living people sourced only to Louis Epstein's recordholders.org website. Has been operating as a longevity-records SPA since 2009, before that there were a few edits to Italy and Italian language articles. Also part of conversations on 110 Club, as recently as 16 Feb this year. [51]. Of course, ArbCom's ruling that membership of a longevity interest group does not per se indicate a conflict of interest does not mean that you can use those interest groups to influence Wikipedia. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:47, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Robert Young and I have differing opinions on many things: certainly in terms of wikipedia. Surprisingly, I have my own mind...so does CalvinTy. I think Robert Young should back off from the oldest people pages of wikipedia completely, if not the whole site. In fact, seeing as you've been scanning the 110 club forum for evidence, you'll already know this. That fact that there are a group of people who want the oldest people pages to sustain/improve/grow is self evident. Your issue is with Robert Young and not those independently-minded individuals who choose to add their voice to any debate here.--Melissa.vp198 (talk) 15:10, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

That's a good observation, Melissa. It appears that long-standing editors like Itsmejudith and David in DC (as well as the banned JJB) seem to have various issues with RYoung122 "over the years". It's very true that The 110 Club has been used as a discussion place for the forum members to talk about Wikipedia issues. After all, that forum is about members with like interests in longevity. Naturally, Wikipedia longevity articles are a major source of discussions. That, by itself, is not a violation of any guideline that I know of? Being a forum administrator there, I have seen a lot of discussions and a lot of opinions shared, sure, but since I was not active on Wikipedia, I couldn't know whether Person A was "deliberating canvassing" Person B or not. As far as I could see in recent days that I have been active here, everyone has voiced his or her comments on their own accord, just as Melissa here has done so. Nobody told me to make a comment at all, and I'm certain Melissa will say the same thing that nobody made her to comment, too. I would imagine that it would be a key "test" to confirm that WP:CANVASS has taken place. Thank you, SirFozzie, for the WP:CANVASS guideline because as I have said before, I did take a gander at WP:MEATPUPPET and I couldn't find anything to justify itsmejudith's position. At WP:CANVASS, it was a clearer guideline about what is inappropriate and appropriate on Wikipedia. The only section that could be applicable was the "stealth canvassing" paragraph. However, that only refers to editors trying to contact other editors off-Wiki to canvass or made others aware of a dispute going on. Stealth canvassing cannot apply to a public forum where members are just expressing their opinions or discussing their own point of views on the forum. To answer SirFozzie's comment on my talk page here, if a particular forum member is rallying the troops by making other forum members aware of an action or dispute going on, I don't know if that's canvassing. I feel that canvassing only means that if that member intentionally tells "you troop members have to disagree with that action on Wikipedia". While a statement of "know what? Editor A on Wikipedia has done this action and I disagree with it, so if you agree with me, I suggest you go over there and state your case." Is that really canvassing, SirFozzie? Like I said, I was not active until recently so I can't be guilty like itsmejudith has blatantly suggested that I be banned for canvassing or meatpuppetry. SirFozzie, that's why I am defending my position vigorously. Appreciate your time (and everyone's else) time in reading my long-winded comments! :-) Cheers, CalvinTy 18:01, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by O Fenian[edit]

I was tangentially involved in a dispute or two leading up to the arbitration case, and I see little has changed. Over 20 hours after being notified of the thread here, and without having replied, he is making edits such as this which restores commented out information with no explanation. The information is sourced to messages in a Yahoo group, which is wholly unacceptable sourcing particularly if the people are still alive as some of them are.

I would suggest something needs to be done about this. O Fenian (talk) 01:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Ed, I believe the relevance is in relation to remedy #4. The general consensus at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Oldest people, Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#List of disputed supercentenarian claimants and Talk:List of disputed supercentenarian claimants#Notability is that the Worlds Oldest People Yahoo Group (the WOP referred to in the diff) is not a reliable source, in particular for claims that a living person is lying about their age. The new "rules" would be the implementation of remedy #4, since experienced uninvolved editors are not happy about WOP and similar sources being used on the articles in question. O Fenian (talk) 02:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Furthermore, despite this detailed message about the use of WOP, and the edit summary clearly linking to the reliable sources noticeboard on the left of the following diff, this edit was made earlier today. Given that three days later he has not even bothered to reply here and has carried on the disputed behaviour despite warnings and discussions saying the source is not reliable, it would appear his intentions are clear and that stern measures are needeed. O Fenian (talk) 03:03, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
More edit warring to add back WOP without any attempt at discussion. O Fenian (talk) 08:14, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
More edit warring to add back WOP (in some cases other sources are added too, but in the cases of the people from Finland WOP is the only source added) while ignoring all previous discussions and in particular Talk:List of oldest living people by nation#Using Yahoo groups as a citation. Also this which adds a cite to WOP. O Fenian (talk) 20:08, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by CalvinTy[edit]

SirFozzie, I just saw your comment. Be careful for jumping into conclusions with your comment, "Unfortunately, the admins at the 110 Club have removed all the threads from the forum they were in (either moving them to a read only/members only forum, or deleting them). One could say that this is them either realizing what they're doing is not allowed, or taking it private, and we won't be able to tell. I'd say it's pretty damming however." As a matter of fact, the founder of the forum (who -- to the best of my knowledge -- has no Wikipedia account and definitely has no hand in all of this disputes going on) approved, ironically today, the recommendation that topics which made predictions of which supercentenarians may live or die within xx number of months were not appropriate for public view, and topics that covers debates or opinions that members would not want the public to be aware of were also not appropriate for public view, as well as topics in where other members or administrators would admonish other member for their mistakes (such as insulting another member) and where the administrators did not want to split or delete the whole topic so all those topics were moved to a private section of the forum. This is out of respect for our forum members as well as everyone on the Internet as well. SirFozzie, please feel free to ask me any more questions but please do not jump into conclusions like that. Much appreciated. Cheers, CalvinTy 05:43, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

To add a little bit to what I said last night above, The 110 Club have had a history of "too much transparency" as a public forum and several members including myself had been concerned about some topics & posts where someone made predictions of which people on the Top Ten living supercentenarians would be still living in 6 months, for example, and several people had felt that was not appropriate for public view. What if a family member of a living supercentenarian saw that prediction about their grandmother "not living in 6 months"? Yikes. Since we as a whole have done a lot of research of potential supercentenarians, The 110 Club usually comes on somewhere on the first page in Google search results if you were to google a current living supercentenarian (based on GRG Table E). At the same time, the forum are mainly composed of young people aged 15-25 (I'm not in that age bracket, grins), so there were a lot of instances where administrators had to admonish them for their behavior in middle of relevant & important topics. Deleting the whole topic or splitting specific posts into a new separate topic usually would lose the context of the topic so we just moved them to the "Lounge", an off-topic area, but still in public view (since the entire forum was public anyway). As for Wikipedia, it's the same principle in where we don't want someone from here to get upset when he or she sees a forum member saying, "my goodness, she on Wikipedia does not know what she is talking about". That's why we have had tried to get those topics moved to a private section for a long time. Ironically, the founder approved the recommendation to move 3 areas (predictions, debates, and members) yesterday in midst of this Wikipedia debate on meatpuppetry & canvassing. So I hope that this current changes will help alleviate the hostility that itsmejudith and others appear to have for particular members of that forum who are also Wikipedia editors. For me, I knew that The 110 Club forum is cached in Google searches, and that they may appear in the Wayback machine like itsmejudith said. All I am asking is that we are trying to make changes on the forum for the better. So I don't know if it's worth anybody's time to seek out old topics and find proof of possible canvassing by a particular forum/Wikipedia member. If itsmejudith wants to do that, I will respect her decision but I cannot be a party to it because I am a forum administrator so there is COI so I cannot help with evidence by moving topics back to public view (and that would go against the founder's wishes). I just feel that I pride in being neutral and listen to all sides as well as being professional, civil, and not prone to outbursts, but I was taken aback by itsmejudith attacking me that "I was fully involved.... in breaking all our rules" when that couldn't have been the case. Itsmejudith has attacked me as the editor, not the content of my comments here on Wikipedia. That's quite upsetting. I am not confident enough to begin a AE request on anyone (plus, I really am not here on Wikipedia to expend my energy aruging with other editors; I want to edit articles and not spend too much time in discussions). Sorry for the long book here! That illustrates my point in previous sentence, LOL! Cheers, CalvinTy 19:14, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

@EdJohnston, thank you for the link to the EEML ArbCom case so I can take a look over there about this to better educate myself about previous precedents on canvassing. I understand your interpretation of canvassing; just that my concern is the last part of the hypothetical sentence: "...so if you agree with me, I suggest you go over there and state your case." That seems to imply that the editor is just notifying other editors about a current event and that the person is being neutral by saying "if you agree with me, then I suggest you go over there and state your opinion". It's not an imperative statement (i.e. an order), correct? Just wondering. In any case, I don't have the time to go over old topics on our forum to see what kind of wording were actually used (and plus, there is the COI issue with myself). I just took a quick look at the EEML ArbCom case, and noticed one apparent erroneous statement by ArbCom unless they meant exactly what they meant: "9) While discussion of Wikipedia and editing in channels outside of Wikipedia itself (such as IRC, mailing lists, or web forums) is unavoidable and generally appropriate, using external channels for coordination of activities that, on-wiki, would be inappropriate is also improper." Did they mean to say "generally inappropriate"? Did I just catch a mistake that nobody had yet, eh? :-) In any case, in good faith, I can only state and defend myself that I did not canvass anyone to the best of my knowledge, and that I only provided my opinions in some of my posts on the forum to those members who were bringing Wikipedia disputes to our attention. Much appreciated, CalvinTy 19:29, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

@To all admins, would it be more appropriate if this RfE focuses solely on the originator's (David in DC) request for a two-week block on NickOrnstein for his failure to collaborate with other editors and persistence in re-introducing Yahoo Groups WOP citations into various articles? Considering that most of us are in agreement that Yahoo Groups WOP is not a reliable source, myself included, I don't see a justification for the assumption that "all of the 110 Club forum members are engaging in coordination efforts (even if some of them could be guilty of canvassing)". If itsmejudith or any other editor (and a non-administrator) decides to make a new RfE case, then that's where the The 110 Club forum members can defend their position, not here. I fully recommend that this "drumhead trial" come to a stop here & focus solely on the original RfE. Thanks, CalvinTy 22:09, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Statement by A Quest for Knowledge[edit]

Although NickOrnstein has not violated WP:3RR on any article, he has been edit-warring for days to include citatations to Yahoo World's Oldest People Group in multiple articles, including those which involve claims about living people:

Since this RfE was filed, NickOrnstein has made over 100 edits[52], and has still not responded to this RfE. I asked NickOrnstein when they planned on responding to this RfE[53] but have not received a response. Since he is apparently unwilling to discuss matters either here or on the relevant talk pages, and he shows no sign of ending his edit-war, he should be blocked until his conduct issues have been resolved. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:31, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Blueboar[edit]

I have to echo the concerns that others have expressed. I have just had my own brief encounter with Nick on the issue of Yahoo groups, and he definitely seems to want to engage in a revert wars rather than discuss the matter on the talk page. The fact that this is ongoing and crossing over into multiple articles clearly indicates that admin action is needed. He is clearly violating the spirit of 3rr if not the letter. As he refuses to engage on talk pages, the only alternative is to get his attention through a block. Blueboar (talk) 22:06, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Further comments by Itsmejudith[edit]

Pursuant to a suggestion by EdJohnston, I would like this AE request to be broadened to cover all the members of the 110 Club that have been involved in the recent off-wiki canvassing:

I am notifying all of those users, plus the following who seem to be members of the group but not involved in recent canvassing:

The following diffs, currently accessible to me through Google cache, show the pattern:

Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Everyone, be advised that when I made my further comments below in my section, itsmejudith had originally explicitly named me above as shown in this diff. I appreciate her redaction. Cheers, CalvinTy 16:52, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
To be fair to itsmejudith, it was EdJohnston, the admin, who recommended itsmejudith not to use real names. Itsmejudith then took out all names, both real names and Wikipedia names out. Regards, CalvinTy 17:22, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the defamatory statements, made by Itsmejudith, that I am somehow involved in a conspiracy to subvert the policies of Wikipedia, where is the evidence for such assertions in this accusation. Cam46136 (talk) 14:31, 8 March 2011 (UTC)Cam46136

Further comments by CalvinTy[edit]

Itsmejudith, the link you provided regarding RYoung122 advising me (which definitely was not the case) would be exactly what I mean by "just because forum members are talking about a Wikipedia debate in a PUBLIC forum, they are not automatically guilty of canvassing". As you can see in that link, I asked where the request for deletion of the WikiProject subage was made (as RYoung122 stated in the original post). Melissa replied with the correct link. I reviewed the discussions, and I myself had some questions for DerbyCountyinNZ and David in DC. I also felt that I wanted to provide my own input in the RSN as well (keeping in mind that NOBODY asked me to go to the RSN and make any comment). Yes, RYoung122 at the end complimented me for making points logically and maturely. (LOL, he probably knows that is a skill that he needs practice with, and he probably would confess to, heh.) However, at least in my view, RYoung122 was not canvassing us in that particular thread. Looking at WP:CANVASS, the four criteria are (and my justification that no canvassing occurred in THAT particular thread only):

Limited posting: The 110 Club longevity forum has only 50 validated members (20-25 active members) and nobody was "mass-posting" anything in that thread. I imagine that there are at least 10 members that also have a similar Wikipedia account as well.

Neutral: Everyone in that thread was providing information about where everything was being covered. I also posted my thoughts from my edits. Nobody was pleading anyone else to "change something".

Audience: it is not fair to say that the audience is "partisan" because all of the forum members are interested in longevity. Why should it be an automatic strike on us when we are talking about longevity articles on Wikipedia as well as the WikiProject's World's Oldest People -- which many of the same forum members/Wikipedia editors are also a project member? This "small community" cannot be guilty of partisanship "just because we are too closely associated to longevity".

Transparency: we forum members all fully knew that The 110 Club was a public forum, available in Google Cache, so when we were participating in that particular thread, we were transparent about our own opinions and thoughts.

Summary: That particular thread does not meet ANY of the four criteria of canvassing. Like I said earlier, I fear that this has become a ""drumhead trial", clumping up all members of a small longevity forum as "guilty" for canvassing. NOTE: I am not saying that no canvassing has occurred in the past, but I was not active on Wikipedia and was not familiar with the WP:CANVASS so even if I am a forum administrator there, I had no idea whether some members may have been actively canvassing at that time. That's why I would appreciate a separate RfE for any direct evidence of canvassing against any alleged members like what itsmejudith feels that RYoung122 has done so in canvassing, as well as SirFozzie's point of view here.

Expanding this RfE only complicates matters because I fear that NickOrnstein's stubborness reflects poorly on other longevity editors such as myself for no reason. I even admonished him myself, but has anyone here cares that I'm being neutral -- or that doesn't matter -- "because you are a forum administrator over there at The 110 Club so you are a guilty party"? If so, that's disappointing. I really don't want to go through the chain of command, but I feel like I am backed into a corner. If necessary, I will have to request enforcement (however that works, but I fear that I have to escalate this matter to a higher level) against any & all editors and administrators who keep insisting on "clumping up" and "generalizing" all longevity editors together from a small forum with the perception of us being a "bad bunch of people and guilty of violating guidelines" when I'm certain that several of us like myself and Melissa are just expressing our opinions on our own accord and, to the best of our knowledge and faith, we have not violated any guidelines.

Your protests that the 110 Club forum has done nothing wrong aren't helped much by this thread, four days ago, which is just more of the behaviour complained about. I find it so sad to see people wasting their time in this way and creating a battleground when there really doesn't have to be one. And this thread where NickOrnstein wants me and David and DC to be kicked out of a WikiProject. This in itself could be enough for NickOrnstein to be banned (uninvolved admin will decide), but I really think that the atmosphere in the group needs to be taken into account. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:56, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
I was given good advice by a good long-standing editor here that I don't need to defend everything left and right as you see I have done lately. I will try to be more careful about that because I wholeheartedly agree with you that there shouldn't be a battleground at all. We are just passionate about longevity, and yes, some behavior is still an issue such as NickOrnstein refusing to comply with not using WOP links in article mainspace. We can hash that out here with the appropriate sanction, I hope. Regarding the first thread you mentioned, I was saying the same thing about NickOrnstein here that he needs to improve his collaboration with other editors. Then I asked SiameseTurtle for his opinion about being which kind of source GRG is: primary source, reliable source, or self-published source. Then I told you here (and gave you a link, as a matter of fact) that I pleaded everyone NOT to attack any person on Wikipedia. Then the last post was RYoung122 letting us know that Louis Epstein has been published by third-party sources. Like EdJohnston said below, "one could argue there is not enough evidence of on-wiki mischief due to the off-wiki coordination". Exactly what I feel. Last, I have said that I understand that some of previous posts on that forum could be considered canvassing; particularly after I learned about the WP:CANVASS. I am pleading with you that if you feel strongly about the canvassing and/or personal attacks, that's understandable but please direct them to the offending people, not the entire forum. Should SiameseTurtle or AMK or Melissa or I receive a discretionary sanction (@admins, what does that mean, curious?) because we were "part of the same atmosphere" that other forum members may have cultivated? That's all. (Darn, I didn't do a good job of not trying to defend everything... I need more practice. :-) ) Cheers, CalvinTy 20:38, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Request from Itsmejudith[edit]

Please, as this AE is about to close, could everyone be encouraged to join in discussion on the talk page of the WikiProject? Still called WP:WOP, WikiProject World's Oldest People, but there are suggestions to rename. I have a question there about splitting list articles and would appreciate comments, otherwise I will just go ahead and do it. What wouldn't be good is if there is no discussion, and then I go ahead, and then there is an edit war. Admins, could someone explain to NickOrnstein, per his question below, why I and David in DC are allowed to be in the WikiProject? Itsmejudith (talk) 15:57, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Suggesting a potential compromise by CalvinTy[edit]

@admins, first, what is a discretionary sanction? Of more concern, why should every member of The 110 Club forum receive one automatically regardless of their level of involvement, if any, in a possible violation of any guidelines (which, to date, is quite debatable and has not been sufficiently proven)?

So, rather, I have a potential compromise here: I think a statement from each forum member voluntarily stating that "We have now reviewed WP:CANVASS and WP:MEATPUPPET guidelines, and we acknowledge not to violate those guidelines, and that we will not take action at the direction of any other Wikipedia editor." would be sufficient? If we make this voluntarily statement, and then one of us violate it, then that's where a sanction or enforcement of a ban of some length would finally be appropriate. Regarding NickOrnstein's actions, if the administrators feel that there is a consensus for him to receive a two-week ban then enforce that. Would that be a good compromise? Regards, CalvinTy 11:47, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Promising never to canvass again would be helpful. I think also further action needs to be taken against Ryoung122. I would recommend that the admins read all the diffs posted. Here, just to give one example, Ryoung122 is clearly using the group to get round his topic ban. He attempts to instruct editors to engage in head on confrontation with me and with and David in DC. He tells them off for trying to reach understanding. By the way, I, and David in DC, who I didn't know at all before wading into this, are just regular, productive WP editors with no axe to grind. Post ArbCom I feel I have a responsibility to help clean up the remains of the walled garden. If you want to discuss how that is done there are plenty of forums, not least the talk page of the the WOP WikiProject. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:43, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
FACT: As soon as the "topic ban" for me went into effect, David in DC falsely accused me of violating the ban by posting information about the (U.S.) 2010 census on my talk page. Not only was that NOT "assuming good faith," it's evidence of wiki-stalking. And rather than encourage me to do the right thing, it was taunting. David in DC also removed my name from the WikiProject:WOP even though I had been banned "indefinitely" (not necessarily forever). And then David in DC continued to make comments about me on message threads, going so far as to suggest that Nick Ornstein couldn't quote me because I was topic-banned...but what if I appear in the news media, as I tend to do? To suggest that Wikipedia should have any effect on a professional person's reputation as "reliable" is, in fact, a violation of BLP and of NOR.

Wikipedia is not a nation, it's "laws" are not binding. It's a website, and a social experiment gone horribly wrong. Instead of being about consensus and collaboration, it has become a virtual-reality video game, where Wikipedia editors build social networks and gang up on others, establishing who is the most powerful.

How about some FACTS:

FACT: Both David in DC and Itsmejudith have a long laundry list of poor editing decisions, whether it's accusing others of being "meatpuppets" or deleting articles that existed for five-plus years, after canvassing for AFD support with a few regulars (Grismaldo, where are you?...) Here's just a few issues:

1. David in DC mass-canvassed with JJB in November 2010, mass-nominating or i-voting in coordination. That's CANVASSING and as usual, Wiki rules don't seem to apply to certain editors.

2. David in DC, from the beginning, hasn't understood the principle of "recusal" when one is an involved party. As an involved ArbCom person, it was not his job to be "ArbCom enforcer." This is just typical of him mis-using the Wikipedia system.

3. When David in DC accuses certain off-wiki groups of trying to use Wikipedia as a "web host," that is typical B.S. that he should be punished for, but gets away with. The GRG lists exist whether they're copied on Wikipedia or not. No one is off-loading anything. We do see the Wikipedia lists offer a few advantages, such as being able to be updated by anyone, not just a 70-year-old man when he is not busy (Dr. Coles).

4. Itsmejudith's "let's delete everything" ideas certainly don't make Wikipedia a better place.

5. Itsmejudith has coordinated with JJBulten and David in DC to CANVASS to "win" debates.

6. Some of Itsmejudith's merge and delete proposals were so preposterous that even JJB was against them. For example, she wanted to delete Oldest People and Longevity Myths. Many of her proposals might succeed, that doesn't mean the right decision was made. It means she chased anyone away who dared oppose. In fact, the real test of whether an editor is going against consensus is to see how much difference there would be if that person took a week off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_disputed_supercentenarian_claimants

Woah, is that David in DC voting again to delete this list? Do you people realize that the purpose of such lists are EDUCATIONAL...i.e., to show the reader, demographically, how common such age claims are. In the same way that kids enjoy lists of home run hitters (but might actually learn math as well), there is a value to these lists that biased, POV-pushing editors like Itsmejudith and David in DC won't or can't see. We already see that David in DC confuses making fun of others as humor...it's not.

7. I might be "topic-banned," but it has been David in DC and Itsmejudith that has prompted me to return to this issue, again.

8. Both David in DC and Itsmejudith continue to talk about me. Get over me. It's NOT about me. It's about YOU TWO pushing against consensus. FACT: I originally opposed Wikipedia list expansion as it would "mirror" GRG lists. Then I realized that the Wikipedia lists were mostly just listed to top-100, whereas the GRG has 1,000+ case lists. So, it's not really accurate to say that the Wikipedia lists were "mirrors."

So (don't laugh), I'm going to propose that Itsmejudith and DavidinDC be simultaneously topic-banned along with anyone else the RFC decides to punish, and start over fresh with neutral third-party editors, not those who had a personal vendetta even before they came across the topic.

Wikipedia claims that bans are not to punish but to make Wikipedia a better place. If Itsmejudith is busy hurling "meatpuppet" accusations without doing research first (just as DerbyNZ, or check the edit histories of Brendanology and even Nick Ornstein), that's detrimental to Wikipedia. If Itsmejudith is deleting articles left and right and David in DC is claiming that list notability is not established even if a source is notable...well, here's an analogy. If MLB.com is a reliable source, NO ONE is going to say that lists of most home runs hit can't be placed on Wikipedia. Yet in effect that's what David in DC has been arguing.

Finally, it was the admin of the admins, Carcharoth, that advised me that off-wiki actions are outside the scope of Wikipedia. And I agree. It's the actions done on Wikipedia that should be punished, from Itsmejudith's "everyone's a meatpuppet" accusations and suggestions that scientific material be banished from religious articles (virgin birth of Jesus) to David in DC's confusing Census 2010 with Census 1910. Because if this is an encyclopedia, then we should want the editing work here to be objective, fair, neutral, and reflective of outside sources, not the personal whims of egotistical nobodys who hide behind fake ID's.

Have a nice day.

Ryoung122 05:51, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


I recommend the following:
  • NickOrnstein: 1 or 2 week block for edit-warring and a 6 month ORR or 1RR restriction after the block expires.
  • Ryoung122: 48 hour block. Reset of his 1 year topic ban to whenever this RfE is closed.
  • Yahoo Oldest People The 110 Club forum members who were canvassed by RYoung122: A simple warning about WP:MEAT and WP:CANVASS should suffice.
A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:04, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
@Itsmejudith, I have no problem with the "promise never to canvass again" phrase, just that I took that into consideration when I said "acknowledge not to violate those guidelines". I understand the concern about the "walled garden" feeling when it comes to longevity articles. It does make sense that we should continue our dialogue in the talk page of the WOP WikiProject.
@A Quest For Knowledge, forgive me, but I corrected several things in your earlier post (let me know if I'm not supposed to do so) -- a.) spelling, b.) completed the user name, and c.) I believe you did not mean Yahoo Groups WOP group (since it's a private group and no messages are visible to the public), but rather, you meant The 110 Club forum that itsmejudith brought up (regarding the posts there). Regarding your recommendations, I personally have no further objections. Regards, CalvinTy 19:33, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
CalvinTy: I'm fine with your changes to my post, but other editors might get offended. Here's our guidelines: WP:TPO. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:45, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Yikes. "Striking text constitutes a change in meaning, and should only be done by the user or someone acting at their explicit request." Definitely will keep that in mind as I had seen it done but I didn't realize that it was likely the editor was striking out his/her comment, not others. My mistake. Thanks, CalvinTy 19:55, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Wait, I thought Ryoung122 had a one year topic ban. I see now that it's indefinite. Sorry, my bad. My recommendation to reset his topic ban doesn't make sense. I will strike that part out. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:13, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

More comments from Ryoung122[edit]

Ed, that is the crux of the issue here. Yahoo groups are generally unreliable, and I agree. However, the WOP group could be described as a "self-published source" by an "expert" (that would be me) or other experts who post messages there, where they must be approved first. In reality, it's a TOOL.

Suppose, for example, Silvo Torkar reported that the oldest woman in Slovenia is still alive at 109, but Wikipedia deleted the case because it was "unsourced". Why not source to Mr. Torkar's statement on the WOP group, which provides and archived record of not just who said it, but the year, month, and day the comment was made. As an "expert" on Slovenian centenarians, it seems reasonable to give someone's message like that to be reliable. That is a practical and sensible argument.

Of course, I don't expect the practical or sensible here. Let's face it: just like the "driving 55mph" rule, it's impossible for all rules to be followed precisely at all times. That was the gist of WP:IAR. It wasn't about anarchy, it was about being able to make common-sense decisions about applying rules appropriately.

An expert's credential are affected by misreporting. If someone's reporting is not generally reliable, they are likely to be "fired." Thus there are lots of incentives to "get it right" the first time.

Again, I tried to do the right thing on Wikipedia, repeatedly. Had I not, I would have been like Louis Epstein, who long ago metaphorically thumbed his nose at the system. Wikipedia has failed to live up to its own rules, allowing power-grabbing editors to carve out metaphorical "witch-hunts" while they ignore the reliable-source material outside Wikipedia that is accepted by the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Tokyo Times, Science Magazine, etc.

The reality is that humans are not computers; they are governed by irrationality, not rationality. That is the conclusion one must draw from years of editing on Wikipedia. It has been noted that Wikipedia editors are disproportionately male and under age 30. Thus, it's not surprising that Wikipedia finds high schools, minor college athletes, and fictional TV characters notable, but fails to consider notable material on supercentenarians, even when the mainstream scientific journals and news reports deem it so.

Ryoung122 06:17, 10 March 2011 (UTC) Refactored by moving from the uninvolved admin's section. Courcelles 06:23, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning NickOrnstein[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
  • David in DC argues that NickOrnstein is engaged in 'explicit refusal to follow the rules and the ArbCom decision', offering this diff as evidence. Can anyone explain the significance?
  • Regarding meatpuppetry, even if we were to accept that certain editors have been coordinating off-site, can anyone give examples of some article disputes where this set of people acted in concert to sway the decision? EdJohnston (talk) 02:37, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
    • Unfortunately, the admins at the 110 Club have removed all the threads from the forum they were in (either moving them to a read only/members only forum, or deleting them). One could say that this is them either realizing what they're doing is not allowed, or taking it private, and we won't be able to tell. I'd say it's pretty damming however. SirFozzie (talk) 05:02, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
  • If NickOrnstein continues to link to World's Oldest People against the apparent consensus, won't explain his reverts and won't respond here, I think that may be held against him. EdJohnston (talk) 03:32, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
  • A case for sanctioning NickOrnstein appears to be developing. If others believe that we should also warn the editors who are part of '110 Club Wikipedia' for meatpuppeting, please notify them of this discussion and add a comment in your own section above with a diff of your notice. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 15:52, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
  • @CalvinTy: "know what? Editor A on Wikipedia has done this action and I disagree with it, so if you agree with me, I suggest you go over there and state your case." Yes, that is canvassing. The fact that it is off-wiki on a forum that is now closed to outsiders makes it worse. See the WP:EEML Arbcom case for a precedent. EdJohnston (talk) 18:31, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
  • WP:RSN shows a consensus that the Yahoo WOP group is inappropriate to cite. WP:ELNO specifically singles out Yahoo groups as links to avoid. NickOrnstein persists in restoring them when they are deleted, typically without comment or justification. Supposedly those forum messages cited contain their own references to actual reliable sources; if that's the case then those sources need to be cited instead. I have left a rather detailed warning on NickOrnstein's talk page, which went un-heeded. I have left a final warning. Further disruption will result in a block independent of the outcome of this AE report. If there are other WOP members lurking around ready to restore those links, I am prepared to blacklist the Yahoo group. NickOrnsein is otherwise productive, so I recommend that he be banned from adding WOP links but otherwise not banned from his area of interest. ~Amatulić (talk) 04:58, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
  • There have also been some discussions of this request at User talk:CalvinTy and at User talk:EdJohnston. In one of these, I suggested that members of the Yahoo WOP group agree to identify themselves as such on Wikipedia, agree to abstain from counted votes on such matters as whether to include WOP links in articles, and agree not to add WOP links to articles themselves. This could be a way for them to avoid sanctions here. If there is no agreement on that, it could be imposed as a discretionary sanction. This would be less draconian than banning those editors from working on longevity completely. EdJohnston (talk) 20:20, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
  • The confused and overlong request does not make clear how the conduct at issue violates any applicable rule, and the confused and overlong discussion is of no help. On this basis, I am not taking any action.  Sandstein  18:10, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
  • @Sandstein: The complaint against NickOrnstein looks to be one of conventional long-term edit-warring. The meatpuppet issue is in a gray area, and one could argue there is not enough evidence of on-wiki mischief due to the off-wiki coordination. The arguments of the 110 Club that they are not canvassing seem to misunderstand policy. On the meatpuppet issue, I could imagine that notifying all the club members of the discretionary sanctions might be enough of a response. EdJohnston (talk) 18:20, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
    • How about this then (speaking as an admin/editor, not as an arb)? Take the action on Nick discussed above, and warn the members of the 110 Club who post on WP of discretionary sanctions, and also remind them that they should not be taking action at the request of Ryoung, who is topic-banned from this area? SirFozzie (talk) 21:04, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Proposed Result:
1. Ryoung is reminded of the restriction imposed by Arbcom:
"Ryoung122 (talk · contribs) is indefinitely prohibited from editing, commenting on, or otherwise participating in any Wikipedia process related to articles about longevity, broadly interpreted."
This language prevents him from making off-wiki comments about Wikipedia debates about longevity. He is warned that any further off-wiki canvassing of forum members to participate in AfDs or other debates may result in a block from editing Wikipedia for the remainder of his topic ban.
2. NickOrnstein is banned from the topic of longevity for six months. He may request unbanning at AE or by any of the admins who participated in this thread if he he will promise not to add any links to the World's Oldest People forum or to the 110 Club. He may ask at AE or any of these admins individually to lift this ban if a formal decision is made at WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard that these are reliable sources to use in longevity articles.
3. The members of any internet forums such as World's Oldest People or the 110 Club are reminded that canvassing is prohibited by Wikipedia policy. Any admin who determines that canvassing off-wiki is still going on and is being used to influence our debates may take appropriate action under the discretionary sanctions. All the editors who have been named in this AE as participating in one of these forums may be formally notified of the longevity discretionary sanctions by any admin using the {{uw-sanctions}} or in any other suitable way. Notification does not imply any wrongdoing, but it is official notice that their behavior may be looked at if they seem to be editing so as to favor the use of a specific set of off-wiki sources.
4. Members of off-wiki groups concerned with longevity are advised to announce their off-wiki affiliation should they participate in any counted votes on the topic of longevity, such as AfDs or at WP:RSN.
Please leave your opinion on this proposed result. Leave the comments in your own section; they will all be read. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 22:08, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
You know, why is DC and jude in WikiProject: WOP? I can't get that across my mind. Alright, I will just add the case without the link instead of using WOP or 110 Club. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 02:21, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
So your offer is that you will now add names with no source at all? How is this progress? EdJohnston (talk) 03:23, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Broad concurrence, though I'd have gone for a year ban instead of six months. Courcelles 03:29, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Since this AE case was opened, I have observed NickOrnsteins edits closely. I notice that for the past couple of days (since I issued a final warning), he has clearly refrained from re-adding Yahoo WOP links, and instead has been trying to include other sources in the longevity articles he edits. In view of that, he is already satisfying the unbanning conditions listed in #2 above, so I believe a topic ban is not be necessary; this AE report has served its purpose already. EdJohnston's other proposals seem fine to me. ~Amatulić (talk) 06:31, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
  • @Amatulic: OK, if Nick has really stopped adding links to Yahoo WOP then the original sanction #2 may not be needed. I suggest replacing it with the following: NickOrnstein is warned not to edit war on longevity articles, or to add references to sources that have been judged at WP:RSN and found wanting. Any admin may impose a 1RR/week restriction on his editing of longevity articles if problems continue. EdJohnston (talk) 00:48, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Closing[edit]

1. Ryoung is reminded of the restriction imposed by Arbcom:
"Ryoung122 (talk · contribs) is indefinitely prohibited from editing, commenting on, or otherwise participating in any Wikipedia process related to articles about longevity, broadly interpreted."
This language puts in doubt whether he should make off-wiki comments about Wikipedia debates about longevity. (He is prohibited from "commenting on ... any Wikipedia process." ) He is warned that any further off-wiki canvassing of forum members to participate in AfDs or other debates may result in a block from editing Wikipedia for the remainder of his topic ban. If he disagrees with this interpretation of his topic ban, he can open a Request for Clarification with Arbcom. Should he appear before Arbcom again, he is reminded that his rich history of personal attacks against other editors in our WikiProject may be put in evidence.
2. NickOrnstein is warned not to edit war on longevity articles, or to add references to sources that have been judged at WP:RSN and found wanting. Any admin may impose a 1RR/week restriction on his editing of longevity articles if problems continue.
3. The members of any internet forums such as Yahoo World's Oldest People or the 110 Club are reminded that canvassing is prohibited by Wikipedia policy. Any admin who determines that canvassing off-wiki is still going on and is being used to influence our debates may take appropriate action under the discretionary sanctions. All the editors who have been named in this AE as participating in one of these forums may be formally notified of the longevity discretionary sanctions by any admin using the {{uw-sanctions}} or in any other suitable way. Notification does not imply any wrongdoing, but it is official notice that their behavior may be looked at if they seem to be editing so as to favor the use of a specific set of off-wiki sources.
4. Members of off-wiki groups concerned with longevity are advised to announce their off-wiki affiliation should they participate in any counted votes on the topic of longevity, such as AfDs or at WP:RSN.
5. Other long-term disputes such as WP:ARBPIA have resulted in more and more people being placed under topic bans. Editors are urged to settle down and follow consensus. If the original dispute addressed by Arbcom continues, more actions here at AE are likely. EdJohnston (talk) 17:12, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Miradre[edit]

user notified of discretionary sanctions

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Miradre[edit]

User requesting enforcement 
·Maunus·ƛ· 03:57, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
Miradre (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated 
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Race_and_intelligence#Editors_reminded_and_discretionary_sanctions
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 

I am not providing diffs at this time because of the nature of the problem. As this is civil POV-pushing no single diff is violating the sanctions, but rather the total editing pattern of the editor. I will start looking through Miradre's contributions tomorrow to begin providing diffs of the exhanges I find to be useful as examples of the conduct in question. Meanwhile, I direct the attention of the reviewing arbitrator to Talk:Race and intelligence and Talk:Race (classification of humans) where they can observe Miradre's interations with other editors for the past week. It is my claim that his editing pattern constitute disruption and civil POV-pushing, observe how his editing constantly issues ultimatums, opp challenges, flat rejections of the opposing argument, and red-herring type arguments.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

{{{Diffs of prior warnings}}}

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction
Topic ban from articles related to Race and/or Intelligence
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 
Miradre (talk · contribs) is a SPA dedicated tothe topic of Race and intelligence. Since joining the project less then 5% of his total edits have been made outside of that topic area. He is always civil and most of his edits have consisted in minor changes to wording and sourcing, and not a small part of his edits have probably been improvements. His basic viewpoint has been obvious from the start as he has consistently argued for more representation of arguments and sources favoring the hereditarian position in the Race and Intelligence debate. This past week he has been working to remove the POV tag from the article Race and Intelligence arguing that the tag should not be there as long as there is no active discussion about the topic and that his many edits have balanced the article. Reviewing the most recent version of the article aprock (talk · contribs) and myself have not found the article to be free of bias and we have also not been content with the way in which he has adressed the POV concerns we have seen. His argumentation has consisted mostly of either rejecting that our arguments are valid or of introducing merely cosmetic changes in response to our criticisms of a fundamentally biased approach to the topic favoring the hereditarian view and not including any substantial coverage of the environmentalist position. The way he has approached the discussion has been to demand that we produce sources that state that the hereditarian view is a minority view, and that unless we can produce such sources the claim that the article gives undue weight to the hereditarian position is unfounded. At this point Slrubenstein (talk · contribs) and Weijibaikebianji (talk · contribs) also joined the discussion also stating that the hereditarian pov is overrepresented in the article. At this point it should be obvious that there was a consensus that the article is biased. In order to show that the mainstream viewpoint is not the hereditarian viewpoint I produced statements from UNESCO (published in 1950, 1969 and 1978) that clearly and unequivocally state that there is no inherent disparity in intellectual capacities among racial groups. I also showed that these statements are the foundation for UNESCO's present policies regarding race and discrimination. I also presented statements from the American Antheopological Association and from the American Association of Physical Anthropologist that state clearly that there is no biologically or genetically based disparities in mental faculties among racial groups. Miradre rejected the value of these overwhelming evidence of the mainstream viewpoint by saying that the UNESCO statemeent was "30 years old" (it is still the foundation of the UN declaration of human rights and the UNESCO policies against racism and discrimination, it is also updated as recently as 2003), and by suggesting that the fact that it contains a wording to the effect that governments should help immigrants by providing them with the means of rebuilding their countries of origins somehow shows that the declaration is not representative of the current mainstream (red herring, since it has nothingt do with the topic). He rejected the statements by the AAA and AAPA by saying "that is just American Anthropologists, they are not representative of the global anthropological mainstream". This is of course also false, since American anthropology in effect is the mainstream after which anthropological communities world wide orient. He also suggested that a single study that documents that the percentage of anthropologists that reject the validity of race as a biological concept is lower in Eastern Europe, China and Cuba than in the US and Western Europe. This is of course also not a valid argument because it says nothing of whether they consider the correlation between race and intellgence to be well founded, and because it also doesn't show that the enviromentalist position is not mainstream. At this point I am no longer able to assume that Miradre is editing in goodfaith - if he can continue to argue against such overwhelming evidence presented by several editors with such flimsy reasoning I cannot but consider his editing at this stage to be pure disruption and civil POV pushing.

Comment to Sandstein[edit]

@Sandstein: I believe that the request is actionable.

  1. The substance of the R&I arbitration case was the consistent CPUSH patterns by single purpose accounts. The Arbcom decision clearly acknowledged that SPA involvement in such controversial topics is not beneficial for the project. This is clearly such a case. Several of the blocked SPA's have a much higher ratio of non R&I edits than Miradre.
  2. The request is not a content dispute but a conduct issue, it doesn't matter who is right what matters is Miradre's consistent use of WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT, and generally confrontational editing. I have previously shown that I am able to work with editors who do not share my views - this is not about that - it is about the fact that he does not engage in meaningful discussion but only in repetitive non-argumentation seemingly designed as a strategy of exhaustion.
  3. Miradre has been warned that continued failure to engage constructively with the arguments of others would result in sanctions being sought.[55][56]
  4. I also note that Aprock has supplied a number of diffs exemplifying Miradre's disruptive conduct. ·Maunus·ƛ· 16:05, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 
[57]

Discussion concerning Miradre[edit]

Statement by Miradre[edit]

Essentially we have a couple of editors who want me banned for on the talk page asking for concrete reasons for keeping the NPOV tag. They themselves contribute almost nothing to improving the contents of the articles in the area. I would be happy to participate in any process for resolving the content dispute.Miradre (talk) 09:26, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

No, I am not Jagz. The sockpuppet investigation is many months old. As are the false allegations there regarding behavior.Miradre (talk) 09:46, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments aprock[edit]

When Miradre (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) started editing it was clear from his editing behavior that he is an editor with significant experience editing Wikipedia, so a sock puppet investigation was initiated to determine if he was any of the recently banned users from the R/I ArbCom case. Much of Miradre's WP:SPA and WP:CPUSH behavior was originally detailed in that SPI case.

In the SPI, Miradre denied being one of the original four accounts listed. And while he did not deny that he is banned user Jagz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), further investigation into a link between those two accounts proved inconclusive. During the SPI, he was made aware of the arbitration, and discusses it on that page. I do not think he was made specifically aware of potential sanctions.

His behavior has remained generally consistent with that of a single purpose account who's goal is to promote a specific viewpoint. He has generally gotten a free pass from most editors for three reasons. First, while he is pushing a specific viewpoint he also makes a lot of constructive edits. Second, the burnout induced by the ArbCom case caused a lot of editors to disengage from the topic. Third, he does a good job of avoiding edit wars and adhering to the letter of editing policy.

At this point in time he has made substantial changes to the Race and Intelligence article consistent with promoting his personal viewpoint. When he met resistance to his attempt to remove the WP:NPOV tag, he dismissed every criticism and declared that unless his interpretation of policy was satisfied then there was no WP:NPOV problem, this despite ongoing discussions about general and specific issues involving five separate editors:

  • 15:20, 24 February 2011: [58] "If no concrete POV problems remains, then there will be no reason for a NPOV tag"
  • 16:48, 24 February 2011: [59] "I will eventually remove the NPOV tag if no more concrete POV problems can be identified"
  • 18:48, 24 February 2011: [60] "I think the article currently do not have systematic POV issues. If no there are no further concrete objections I will remove the tag."
  • 01:38, 5 March 2011: [61] "They has all been resolved as stated with no one giving any concrete remaining objection. What exactly are you still considering POV?"
  • 21:05, 6 March 2011: [62] "If there are scholarly arguments missing, then please add that to the article with sources. However, an unproven claim that there is something missing is not a good reason for a NPOV tag."
  • 19:22, 9 March 2011: [63] "A dispute about how to summarize is not necessarily a NPOV dispute."
  • 21:48, 9 March 2011: [64] "If there are NPOV issues, then please give concrete examples"

If you read the talk page, it essentially amounts to one giant wall of WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT, with every concern either dismissed or treated cosmetically in a way that does not address the problem. Thus begat the giant wall of text to defend the placement of a single WP:NPOV tag in one of the most contentious articles in the encyclopedia.

Another aspect that of his editing is an over reliance on -- and misuse of -- primary sources which he represents as secondary sources [65].

Other behavior problems that he exhibits were detailed in the SPI with diffs.

comment regarding sanctions
I would like to note that at this time I do not think Miradre should be banned, topic banned, or sanctioned in any manner. What would be most useful is for an administrator to do a complete review the situation on Talk:Race and intelligence and Talk:Race (classification of humans), and to make a determination whether the conduct of Miradre constitutes disruptive behavior, and whether that falls under the umbrella of ArbCom sanctions.
I believe that the skill with which Miradre is editing is strong evidence of him being an experienced user returning under a different username. I also agree with Maunus that this is a situation of WP:SPA/WP:CPUSH. When an experienced and skilled editor engages in WP:CPUSH, simple diffs are not going to paint a complete picture, and having an outside editor review the full text of the talk pages is warranted. I realize that this is a lot to ask, but having a definitive ruling on conduct issues early will greatly help, and hopefully avoid future escalation in dispute resolution. I've been watching R/I articles for years now, and the total number of man-hours that have gone into dispute resolution is disheartening.
If it is the case that his (or anyone else's) editing conduct is found to be disruptive, and under ArbCom purview, a simple warning should suffice. If upon review of the complete talk pages, his editing is found to be not problematic, then I will accept that his behavior is in fact acceptable on wikipedia, and allow Miradre to continue behaving in such a manner uncontested. aprock (talk) 18:10, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Miradre[edit]

Result concerning Miradre[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
  • Maunus, your request here won't be reviewed by an arbitrator, but by administrators. As submitted, I do not think that the request is actionable. First, discretionary sanctions require that "Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to the decision authorizing sanctions"; this does not seem to have happened. Second, as currently phrased, the request appears to ask administrators to adjudicate a content dispute (i.e., who is right in the underlying scientific disagreement), which we can't do. It is not made sufficiently clear, in my opinion, how making (allegedly) deficient talk page arguments amounts to a systematic violation of WP:NPOV. Third, without evidence in the form of diffs we can't come to a finding that Miradre's editing violates NPOV or some other policy. They have made so many edits in this topic area that we can't review them all. On this basis, I recommend that you seek to resolve this disagreement using some other means of dispute resolution as described at WP:DR.  Sandstein  05:34, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
  • There is more than enough in the evidence and arguments presented to justify notifying Miradre that the topic area is covered by the ARBR&I discretionary sanctions, and I have done so. Miradre, please take this to heart, and concentrate on productive collaboration. - 2/0 (cont.) 14:43, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Lapsed Pacifist[edit]

Blocked
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Lapsed Pacifist[edit]

User requesting enforcement 
GainLine 17:20, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
Lapsed Pacifist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated 
remedy 3.1 (topic ban)
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 
  1. [66] As per Arbitration, Lapsed Pacifist is topic banned from articles relating to the Corrib Gas Controversy. This article was categorised by LP to be part of this topic. While the diff is of a minor edit to the article, the user has a history of pushing the limits here on Wikipedia.
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Not applicable

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction
Enforcement action to be at enforcing administrators discretion.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 
Lapsed Pacifist has been already sanctioned 3 times under the terms of this arbitration and 5 times under Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Lapsed Pacifist. Lapsed Pacifists behaviour has been much improved since their last block, it would be a pity to see them slip into previous negative patterns.
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 
[67]

Discussion concerning Lapsed Pacifist[edit]

Statement by Lapsed Pacifist[edit]

Comments by others about the request concerning Lapsed Pacifist[edit]

Result concerning Lapsed Pacifist[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
  • Blocked for 48 hours. Tiptoety talk 19:51, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Doktorbuk[edit]

No action taken.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Doktorbuk[edit]

User requesting enforcement 
O Fenian (talk) 18:32, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
Doktorbuk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated 
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 
  1. [68] Revert 1
  2. [69] Revert 2, within 24 hours of the first breaching the 1RR restriction
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
  1. [70] Warning by Mo ainm (talk · contribs)
Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction
Block
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 
I have attempted to discuss the matter at Talk:Belfast West by-election, 2011 and received no reply there, despite offering a compromise that took the other editor's point into consideration. I asked the editor to self-revert to avoid this report, and received the simple answer of "No". Any edits relating to Gerry Adams come under the Troubles restriction. O Fenian (talk) 18:32, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 
[71]

Discussion concerning Doktorbuk[edit]

Statement by Doktorbuk[edit]

The paragraph in question is below -

"Notwithstanding Gerry Adams' public statement rejecting his new position,[11] the Parliamentary authorities in Westminster have removed him from the list of MPs[12] and the seat of Belfast West is now considered vacant.[13]"

This breaks down into these parts -

  • As it is not possible to resign from the House of Commons (Resignation from the British House of Commons), Gerry Adams' letter to the Speaker of the House was not, in and of itself, enough to satisfy the House authorities that he had resigned. It needed more than just this letter, such are the rules.
  • Therefore, to ensure that, for all editors and readers of this article, Wikipedia gave a clear overview of the situation, I wrote the above paragraph, which has been untouched since being written until the events of the past two days.
  • The paragraph outlines, with evidence and sources, that the House of Commons authorities do not consider Mr Adams to be an Member of the House, and Belfast West is a vacant constituency,
  • As I have said to User:Mo ainm tonight, I had no idea, at all, of the community guidelines relating to The Troubles. I have not edited, as far as I can remember, any subject matter related to The Troubles in my time as a Wikipedia editor. Indeed I have edited parliamentary constituency articles for seats in and outside Northern Ireland without ever being made aware of these rules.
  • I contend that my paragraph does not break rules or guidelines. It is not "private research" in the way I understand Wikipedia defines this charge.
  • I contend that my paragraph is enough for both casual and expert readers to understand the context of Mr Adams' resignation
  • I do not feel it is necessary to place my edit into the arena of an enforcement ruling. I have been an editor for many years, and this is the first time I have ever been subject to such a charge, which has taken me by some surprise.

I respect the decision of those involved in deciding the outcome of this case.


doktorb wordsdeeds 18:42, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Additional Edit 12/03 The article Belfast West by-election, 2011 has been copy-edited by another editor, not connected to either party in this case. The offending paragraph has been removed. I consider this Request to be no longer necessary. doktorb wordsdeeds 01:00, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Doktorbuk[edit]

  • Quite frankly there is the question that arbitration regs don't apply here. Apart from the ex-MP for the constituency being heavily involved in the Troubles, the page has nothing to do with the Troubles at all so the restrictions shouldn't apply. The page in question was regarding an upcoming British parliamentary contituency election which has nothing to do with any of the restiction requirements. Or is it that every page that even mentions gerry adams has to be subject to the regulations? The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 08:07, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning Doktorbuk[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case, the 1RR restriction looks like a community-imposed restriction and not an Arbitration Committee-imposed one. It is at any rate not clear that this 1RR restriction has at any time been imposed by a vote of the Arbitration Committee or by a person acting under its delegated authority. I am therefore of the opinion that it cannot be enforced in this venue or with AE authority. (There might have been a request for clarification about this, but I no longer remember).  Sandstein  14:59, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

As a purely practical matter, I am not sure where else one would go to request enforcement of a community-imposed sanction. AN/I is unlikely to give the focused and structured discussion called for in such cases; the Climate change board was ... a fiasco; the Obama and Palin boards are moribund; the British Isles board was active when last I checked, but is focused on editing issues (and is hardly a model for that). I think that spinning out a multiplicity of special-purpose boards is not the way to go here.
Moving on to the matter at hand, I am inclined to decline this report anyway. The issue at hand seems amenable to ordinary discussion, and intervening would appear to be counterproductive even were it clear that this board could do so. - 2/0 (cont.) 17:27, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
  • The community has not been logging its agreed-to 1RR restrictions in any central place. Maybe a new section at the bottom of WP:RESTRICT should be added. I agree with Sandstein that the 1RR we are speaking of is from the community and was not imposed by Arbcom itself. Doktorbuk can't be sanctioned per this noticeboard for a 1RR violation. If the matter were serious, the Troubles remedy known as 'Probation' might be applied to Doktorbuk, but it seems too early for that. Probation puts the editor under 1RR/week on Troubles articles. This request should be closed with no action against Doktorbuk. For more technicalities, see [72]. Arbcom did not accept Elonka's proposed amendment to allow discretionary sanctions and it did not add its own endorsement to the community's 1RR restriction. EdJohnston (talk) 21:14, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
We went through this back in 2009, and the Committee then saw no problem with using AE for Community Sanction enforcement. (I should know, I brought the arbcom request.) Now that I'm the other side of the issue, I still agree with them that it's fine to use this. SirFozzie (talk) 02:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the information. Maybe that could be clarified somehow on the case page? The way the sanction is presented there is pretty nonstandard, with much unsigned commentary and so on.  Sandstein  06:48, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
  • OK, we can address the matter here as a violation of the community sanction. It is an actual 1RR violation. The article has been edited since, and the paragraph by Doktorbuk has been removed. He indicates above that he will not restore it. As a community sanction case, I recommend this be closed with no action. EdJohnston (talk) 03:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Agreed, and I am so closing it.  Sandstein  06:48, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Jalapenos do exist[edit]

Jalapenos do exist is warned not to misrepresent sources.  Sandstein  16:31, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


Request concerning Jalapenos do exist[edit]

User requesting enforcement 
Gatoclass (talk) 10:49, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
Jalapenos do exist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated 
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 
  1. [73]. Reversion of this edit. With diff #2 below: Violation of global 1RR restriction on I-P articles. Violation of Jalapenos' 1RR per day ban on I-P articles.
  2. [74]. Reversion of this edit. With diff #1 above: Violation of global 1RR restriction on I-P articles. Violation of Jalapenos' 1RR per day ban on I-P articles.
  3. [75] Gross violation of WP:NPOV through the creation of another heavily biased article from this user. See further explanation below.
Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
  1. [76] Warning by Georgewilliamherbert (talk · contribs)
Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction

Topic ban.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint 

On December 20 last year, Jalapenos do exist was banned from making more than one global revert per day on I-P related articles, for a period of three months. This came on top of the 1RR restriction that was imposed on all editors in the I-P topic area. The first two diffs in the evidence section above demonstrate that Jalapenos has violated both restrictions by making two clear reverts on the same article only 8 hours apart.

The third diff above, represents the state of the article as Jalapenos created it before others started to make substantial edits to it. I submit that the article he created represents a gross violation of NPOV, for several reasons:

  • As with other I-P articles Jalapenos has created, this article completely omitted any statements from Palestinian moderates, presenting only extreme or hardline points of view. Thus, we learn in the intro that Palestinians in Rafah celebrated in the streets, but nowhere in the article was it mentioned that Palestinian residents of Awarta condemned the attack. We learned that Al-Aqsa called the attack "heroic" and Hamas justified it, but not that the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority condemned it. Nor did the article mention that the attack may have been carried out in retaliation for the killing of two Palestinian teenagers from Awarta last year. I was able to find all this information in five minutes from the sources that Jalapenos himself provided: [77][78] Jalapenos must have read them, but he has chosen to simply omit any information that might detract from his one-sided presentation of Palestinians as bloodthirsty and vengeful.
  • Jalapenos included not one, but three horrific images of bodies of the victims. All three images were quickly deleted from Commons by an admin, but not before J. had reverted the removal of only one of them by another user (see diff #1 above). Note that J. gave no reason for his revert.
  • Jalapenos restored the information about Palestinians in Rafah celebrating the killings after I had removed it as wp:undue in the lead (see diff #2 above). He gave no explanation for his revert, in common with his usual practice. Nor did he leave any explanation on the talk page. At the moment he reverted it, he must have been aware that the residents of Awarta had had an opposite response, calling the killings bestial, but for Jalapenos only the response of the Rafahns merits inclusion in the intro.

Jalapenos has a long history of creating heavily biased content on this encyclopedia, as a look at his editing history will demonstrate. I'd like to think the user is capable of reform but I'm afraid I see no evidence of it with this latest series of edits. I am therefore requesting a topic ban for this user. Gatoclass (talk) 11:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Response to Jalapenos

J. states that he was merely responding to a request to move the picture, but Biosketch's comment on the talk page included the comment: please consider that plastering photos of the victims all over the article is nonconstructive editing.[79] Clearly, he felt that the addition of three pictures was excessive. Jalapenos ignored this concern in restoring the image.

Regardless, the condition of the article before others made substantial changes was demonstrably one-sided, to a degree that I think ought to be considered unacceptable. Excluding all but the most extreme Palestinian viewpoints and plastering the article with graphic images of "dead babies", to quote User:Y, should surely be evidence enough of that. Gatoclass (talk) 15:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm withdrawing the violation of 1RR charge. I missed the fact that Jalapenos had restored the image to a different section, and that he might have believed that by doing so he was responding to Biosketch's main concern. He still could, I think, have asked for clarification, but I think this can no longer be described as a clearcut revert. My apologies to Jalapenos and the adjudicating admins for the error.
In regards to the other part of the case, I will probably have more to say tomorrow. Gatoclass (talk) 18:33, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Request downgrade

On reflection, though I believe the article created by Jalapenos was blatantly POV, I probably would not have brought this request on that evidence alone, it was that in combination with the 1RR violation, since withdrawn, that persuaded me to file it. Though Jalapenos has in my experience made some highly questionable edits at times, and in my opinion added some marginal content, I'm not entirely sure a sanction is warranted at this point. In the absence of further evidence from other users, therefore, and in the interests of collegiality, I am downgrading my enforcement request from a topic ban to a warning. Gatoclass (talk) 14:24, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 

Discussion concerning Jalapenos do exist[edit]

Statement by Jalapenos do exist[edit]

I create a pretty good article almost single handedly, and instead of getting thanked, first I get hit with a frivolous AfD (snow kept)[81], and now this bullshit.

In edit #1, a user had removed an image of a victim from the Reactions section with the statement "inappropriately situated, no connection to Reactions"[82]; I agreed, so I restored the image to the Victims section, explaining what I did and why.[83] A very mundane edit in the course of upkeep on an article I created, and by no means a revert. So much for the 1RR allegation.

The NPOV allegation is nonsense. I really don't feel like going through all the falsehoods and carefully constructed half-truths, but if you just look at this article and my other articles, you can see that they are not biased, and many editors have said as much. I'm proud of the fact that I've received compliments from editors with declared sympathies on both sides of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Please take a good, long look at Gatoclass' editing and complaint history. What's going on here is that Gatoclass has a strong partisan POV regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict, he seeks to imprint his POV on any he article he can (typically articles where someone else did the real work), he relentlessly bullies anyone who gets in his way, and he attempts to manipulate the AE process for this purpose. Of course, people who share his partisan POV will support these attempts, and people who oppose it will oppose them. You guys can either find a way to put a stop to this behavior, or you can let your time get wasted with drama and watch as sensible editors continue to disappear from this area out of frustration. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 14:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Response to Gatoclass[edit]

Having apparently abandoned the 2RR allegation, Gatoclass is now clutching at the idea that I ignored Biosketch's concerns when restoring a photo to the Victims section. Not exactly an issue for AE, but in any case Biosketch has explicitly stated "I support displaying one photo in the Victims section, as a relevant document illustrating the event with which the article is concerned"[84]. My position is similar, and we editors who are actually writing the article are, at this very moment, having a civil and rather nuanced discussion on what to do with the photos.[85] Cptnono, NortyNort and Biosketch essentially agree with me, and Robofish essentially agrees with Y, who unilaterally deleted all the photos by invoking WP:IAR. I agree with Biosketch that meanwhile the deletion "should be reverted pending a more articulate explanation", and you might say that our concern is being ignored, but I am bound by 1RR. Meanwhile, Gatoclass, who has contributed nothing to the article except a short series of POV-serving edits, has simply not participated in the discussion. And why should he, when he can circumvent the normal consensus-building procedures and just force his partisan position on the article by gaming AE? I guess that he will soon receive assistance from Mkativerata, who has not sullied himself with actual discussion on the talk page either. That's how it goes. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 17:33, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Response to Sandstein regarding Fatah and sources[edit]

I originally wrote in the lead: Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the military wing of Palestinian Fatah, claimed responsibility for the attack, calling it a "heroic operation" This was based on the cited Guardian article, which wrote: The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, the armed wing of Fatah, the dominant political faction in the West Bank, said it had carried out the "heroic operation … ". Word for word.

I also wrote in the body: Fatah, the group that controls the Palestinian National Authority, released a statement by its militia, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, in which it claimed responsibility for the killings. The statement said the "heroic" operation was a "natural response to massacres committed by the occupation against our people in the Gaza Strip and West Bank." This was based on the cited Jerusalem Post source, which wrote: "PA officials in Ramallah expressed skepticism over a statement released by Fatah’s militia, the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, in which it claimed responsibility for the killings. The statement said the “heroic” operation was a “natural response to massacres committed by the occupation against our people in the Gaza Strip and West Bank.” Again, word for word. (See also ElComandantChe's briefer statement on this.)

Both cited sources state that Fatah's militia/the armed wing of Fatah, al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, claimed responsibility for the attack. As do my statements. Neither source attributes any responsibility to the PA, nor do either of my statements. The Guardian source notes the commonly known fact that Fatah dominates the PA, as does my second statement. Everything in both statements is in one or both of the sources, though the second statement has a short explanatory clause that's only stated explicitly in the first source.

Mkateriva deleted the second statement entirely[86] with the edit summary rm statement that falsifies and exaggerates source and throws in a copyright violation for good measure. I've already shown that the edit summary is at least partially false. I'm not sure what he meant by "throws in a copyright violation". He then proceeded to remove the first statement entirely[87], with the edit summary rm claim contradicted by http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=211909 This edit summary is also false (though it might have been an innocent mistake), because Mkateriva's second Jpost article does not contradict my Guardian and first Jpost articles; it merely notes that Al Hayat published a contradictory report, and it neither endorses nor challenges this report.[88] Al Hayat is owned by a prince of Saudi Arabia, a regime not known for allowing a robust independent press. While it would nevertheless be perfectly fine to include both statements side by side, there is no justification for simply deleting a statement agreed on by both The Guardian and The Jerusalem Post because it is contradicted by Al Hayat, an inferior source in both quantity and quality.

In short, my statements did not misrepresent the sources in any way, and Mkateriva selectively removed them under flimsy and partially false pretexts. It is entirely obvious that he was uncomfortable with the claim of responsibility by Fatah's armed wing, reported by two mainstream reliable sources, and chose to deal with this discomfort by simply deleting them. What this episode illustrates is that with a strong enough commitment to deception and sophistry, any edit - any edit whatsoever - can be portrayed as sinister, and any selective removal of material, no matter how biased and egregious, can be gotten away with by using AE as a distractive. The logical conclusion of this type of behavior is Unomi's long missive which basically boils down to "there are things in the sources that JDE didn't use!" How true, and how tragic, since I would be going back to use the sources more thoroughly, thereby improving the article and Wikipedia, if only I weren't stuck here responding to spurious accusations. The question is whether people who act like this have to pay any price for it, or if they can just go on freely slinging their mud hoping that some of it will stick while they continue with their bad editing. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:02, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Response to Sandstein regarding Hamas and sources[edit]

The main issue here is that the source has been changed since I used it. The cached original version is titled Palestinian takes revenge, kills 5 settlers. This is where I got but stated that the incident was a Palestinian "revenge" attack on Israelis. That the whole thing is a statement by Hamas is simple: the source is a Hamas website. The Hamas statement acknowledges that the attack occurred but, notably, does not claim responsibility. That Hamas denied responsibility has been stated explicitly in that same primary source[89] and in mainstream secondary sources, e.g. [90], but I was using the first source anyway and its indication by silence was sufficient to source the point. My summary of Hamas's position was accurate and representative of the source in every element. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:38, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Mkativerata[edit]

In addition to the substantial evidence filed above, a few other issues demonstrate the relentless POV-pushing of JdE on this article:

  • Falsified linking of the attack to Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. This was the article before anyone else really touched it. It said Fatah, the group that controls the Palestinian National Authority, released a statement by its militia, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, in which it claimed responsibility for the killings. Plainly, this statement is designed to push a POV that Fatah, and thus the PA, is linked to the attacks. The statement falsifies the source cited. The source says nothing of Fatah releasing a statement. Absolutely nothing. The source actually says that the PA (controlled by Fatah) was "sceptical" of a statement supposedly released by the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades. Of course, the main content of the source is to show that Fatah and the PA condemened the attacks. But JdE's article makes no mention of the PA's condemnation, instead choosing to falsify the source to implicate Fatah. The fact that JdE's content also violated the copyright of the source cited demonstrates the extreme rush in which this hatchet job of an article was prepared.
  • Of course, we later found out that in fact the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades denied having anything to do with the attack. In these two edits I added a more up-to-date source saying that al-Aqsa denied involvement, and that the "statement" claiming responsibility was issued by a random splinter group that uses al-Aqsa's name. But despite the evidence to the contrary, JdE had to persist in restoring the perjorative links to Fatah despite the source used being obviously out of date and overtaken by more accurate sources (I'd edit the article again... but 1RR).
  • As per Gatoclass, the article took great pains to mention anything that could reflect badly on the Palestinian administration. But JdE conspicuously ignored information from the same sources that could provide a more balanced view, such as the condemnations by PA, the reaction of residents of Awarta.

Breaches of 1RR are forgivable, and it seems there weren't any here. But POV-pushing by source falsification and selective inclusion of perjorative material cannot be tolerated. This is exactly what topic bans were designed for. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

On the first point. The source says "PA officials in Ramallah expressed skepticism over a statement released by Fatah’s militia, the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, in which it claimed responsibility for the killings", i.e. JDE representation of the source is quite accurate. No comments on credibility of both JPost articles mentioned above. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 22:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
On what basis does "Fatah's militia" = "Fatah"? That link is plainly a falsification, especially when (a) the same sentence says that the PNA (controlled by Fatah) expressed scepticism about the statement; and (b) it is well established that the description of AAMB as "Fatah's militia" is dubious and controversial. JdE has deliberately set out to mispresent the source to tie the attacks not only to AAMB but to Fatah. --Mkativerata (talk) 22:02, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

@Sandstein: Just a couple of points: (1) Unomi has presented more evidence of source falsification below (see the Hamas "revenge" issue). (2) A dispute about POV on a particular article is a content issue; an accusation that a user is pushing POV in his or her article work is a conduct issue. Pushing POV falls within the scope of ARBPIA sanctions as conduct that "seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process". AE admins here aren't being asked to adjudicate on a content dispute (the content dispute at the article has pretty much settled down); they're being asked to sanction an editor for pushing POV. Accordingly, I think the POV accusations against JdE are actionable as an AE request. --Mkativerata (talk) 22:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, POV-pushing is sanctionable, but normally not on the basis of writing a single (even if possibly deficient) article. We'd need evidence for a pattern of non-neutral conduct. The previous AE request cited below may be relevant, though.  Sandstein  23:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Actually, on further review and in fairness to JdE, the Hamas/revenge/attribution issue may be due to an earlier version of the source that was linked. It seems an earlier version of the Al Qassam article said in its headline, "Palestinian takes revenge, kills 5 settlers". Al Qassam is linked to Hamas, so perhaps the attribution of the "revenge" quote to Hamas can be explained on that basis. An earlier version of the source is copy/pasted at this forum. --Mkativerata (talk) 23:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

As another example of the POV-pushing in Itamar killings, JdE included 2010 Palestinian militancy campaign as a "See also" link. That article is a controversial article essentially claiming a concerted effort by Palestinian factions to use violence to derail the peace process in 2010. Including a see also link in Itamar killings was none other than a brazen attempt, unsupported by any reliable sources, to suggest that these murders were a cynical part of that so-called militancy campaign. It should come as no surprise that JdE is one of the principal authors of 2010 Palestinian militancy campaign. --Mkativerata (talk) 23:06, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

@JdE's recent lengthy post, as it questions my own edits:

[91] The phrase "It added that the perpetrator managed to return safely to his base." is a word-for-word copyright violation of [92].
The suggestion that Al-Hayat is an unreliable source in these matters is completely spurious. A read of our own WP article on the newspaper will show that. The fact that the Jerusalem Post reported Al-Hayat's reports verbatim indicates that it is accepted for its reliability across the spectrum of reasonable I/P views. This New York Times article is a good read. It was abundantly clear by the time of my edit (and remains clear now) that early news reports attributing the attack to the AAMB were completely wrong, and I make no apology for correcting it. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:11, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Statement by unomi[edit]

Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, neither its selection of articles nor individual articles will ever be 'finished', we work together, sometimes competitively and at best cooperatively to continually improve presentation of the material available - in light of this we shouldn't hold any one editor responsible for 'perfecting' an article. I believe that this holds true when looking at the broad selection of sources available for any given subject, however, when an editor chooses to selectively include material from a source - and indeed materially misrepresent the content of the sources - then we have a problem.

JDE was fairly recently sanctioned at AE, see here, where uninvolved admins stated: "I do, however, see other problematic editing, including apparent single-purpose, POV-driven editing affecting multiple articles, including article creation, ..." and "... we caution him that future misconduct on these articles can result in him being excluded from the topic area, blocked from editing, or otherwise restricted.".

Did JDE fail to represent the sources he used adequately? Looking at the version indicated by Mkativerata above, starting from the bottom up.

1. Hamas, the group that governs the Gaza Strip, did not claim responsibility, but stated that the incident was a Palestinian "revenge" attack on Israelis and argued that Palestinian factions "have the full right... to use all tools and means of resistance" against Israel.[93]

  • The only thing regarding the perpetrator and motivation stated there is: "Israeli media claimed that angry Palestinian attacked a home in the illegal settlement of Itamar near Nablus and killed Five settlers from one family before he escapes." I would also note that the passage regarding armed resistance is edited to remove any mention of international law, the occupation and changes 'Israeli occupation forces and the armed Israeli settlers' to simply 'Israel'.
  • Also note that the page shows related stories, one bearing the headline: "Hamas denies responsibility for Itamar incident" and contains: "Al-Rashak confirmed that harming children is not part of Hamas' policy, nor is it the policy of the resistance factions."

2. Fatah, the group that controls the Palestinian National Authority, released a statement by its militia, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, in which it claimed responsibility for the killings. The statement said the "heroic" operation was a "natural response to massacres committed by the occupation against our people in the Gaza Strip and West Bank." It added that the perpetrator managed to return safely to his base.[94]

  • The source article as a whole is somewhat confusing to be honest, personally I would probably look for a more authoritative source regarding just who claimed responsibility for what. A quick google search quickly brings into to question the quality of the assertion: A previously unknown group, the Imad Mughniyah Cell of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack Saturday, but an unnamed Israeli officer told Haaretz daily that this was "nonsense."[95]
  • The source does however repeatedly state that the PNA condemned “any act that targets civilians, regardless of their identity.” the entire first 1/3 of the source article is dedicated to the PNA condemning the killings, yet none, not one bit of that is mentioned under Palestinian reactions, not just a little. That the PNA condemned the killings is repeated in just about every source that was in use at that time.

3. This LA Times article is used 3 times, mostly for details that in some cases are contradicted by sources closer to the event, such as the 2 unharmed children were hiding rather than sleeping. But much information in the source is ignored such as:

  • Israeli authorities suspect that the killings, the deadliest attack inside a settlement in several years, were either a strike by Palestinian militants or a revenge attack by residents of the West Bank village of Awarta, where two Palestinian teenagers were shot to death a year ago as they collected garbage near Itamar.
  • Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Salam Fayyad also criticized the killings. "As we have always rejected violence against our people, we reject it against others and we condemn it."
  • Tensions between settlers and Palestinian villagers have been escalating for weeks. Founded in 1984, the Itamar settlement sits on land that was once controlled by the village of Awarta, said Awarta Mayor Qais Awwad.
  • In recent weeks, Palestinians have accused settlers in the area of chopping down hundreds of olive trees, burning Palestinians' cars and shooting at villagers. Last week, Israeli soldiers were accused of using live gunfire to quell one clash, injuring 10 Palestinians and one settler.
  • Itamar's settlers are considered among the most fervent, believing Israel has a historic and religious right to absorb the West Bank, which Israel seized during the 1967 Middle East War. Most of the international community, however, views Israel's settlements as illegal and has called for Israel to end the occupation by allowing Palestinians to build their own state on the land.
  • Israeli soldiers appeared to be focusing their efforts on family members of the two Palestinians killed last March. At the time, Palestinians had complained that the unarmed youths were killed by settlers from Itamar, although Israeli soldiers said they shot the teens. A military investigation was opened into the incident. Several male relatives in the family were arrested Saturday and their home remained surrounded by Israeli soldiers.

I can reach no other conclusion than JDE deliberately excluded information which would be of value to an encyclopedic article but might run counter to his intentions with wikipedia.

We aren't talking about just not doing diligent research in finding appropriate sources, we are talking about intentional and consistent omissions from numerous sources that he had read. It is this kind of editing which is most problematic in terms of editor friction and is an impediment to a collaborative editing atmosphere, not to mention being just plain manipulative of wikipedia readers. unmi 21:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment to Sandstein

Regarding: "Whether the article as a whole conformed to WP:NPOV when it was created, or whether relevant information was omitted, is probably a content dispute that cannot be decided in an arbitration context"

I have to echo the sentiment of Mkativerata above. The I/P discretionary sanctions state that this type of behavior is falls under the purview of AE: that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. it also explicitly mentions WP:NPOV: Editors wishing to edit in these areas are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Wikipedia's communal approaches (including appropriate conduct, dispute resolution, neutral point of view, no original research and verifiability) in their editing. WP:NPOV has as its first line: Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. - it may be that this should be followed in theory but that in practice it rarely happens (especially in contentious areas), but that is more than anything the fault of those who should be enforcing the policy. One could argue that omitting material that speaks to possible motives, such as carried by the LA Times, might potentially be a content issue, but surely not that the PNA had condemned the attacks when half of the article is about 'reactions' and when the sources are brimming with the PNA reactions. It strikes me that intentionally omitting that the PNA had condemned the attacks, and even going so far as intimating that it was linked to them is such a gross violation when you consider that just about every single source JDE used carried the information that the PNA had condemned them. unmi 23:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Response to JDE's comment

Regarding: "The logical conclusion of this type of behavior is Unomi's long missive which basically boils down to "there are things in the sources that JDE didn't use!" How true, and how tragic, since I would be going back to use the sources more thoroughly, thereby improving the article and Wikipedia, if only I weren't stuck here responding to spurious accusations."

Let me be Frank, Shirley you must be joking. In light of your previous AE where you also forwarded this very same mix of mild outrage, denial of any wrong-doing and deflection of core issues I find myself yet again amazed at the credulity that you attribute to your fellow editors. I do however welcome your tacit acknowledgement that you did not reflect the weight of contents in the sources that you used. That you would have, if only.. rings mightily hollow however; you managed to add the responses of the UN, France, Germany, US, 'quartet on the Middle East', Perez and Netanyahu - replete with flags in most cases, yet the Palestinian reactions are 1. giving out candy, 2. military wing of fatah claiming responsibility calling it 'heroic', 3. Hamas calling it an act of revenge - yet failed to mention what is stated in just about each source that you use - The Palestinian National Authority condemning the attacks. Sorry, but the contention that you somehow didn't have the time to mention that is laughable. The conscious and willful omission of what is given weight in the sources is a blatant WP:NPOV violation, and attempting to reduce that to "there are things in the sources that JDE didn't use!" is brazen, but brings us back to the same situation as in the previous AE - assume bad faith or assume no clue.

Regarding: "The question is whether people who act like this have to pay any price for it, or if they can just go on freely slinging their mud hoping that some of it will stick while they continue with their bad editing."

Indeed.
unmi 02:42, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Comment regarding the downgrade request by Gatoclass

I never expected more to come of this than a warning and would find that a satisfactory conclusion to this request as well. unmi 14:37, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Jalapenos do exist[edit]

I was heavily involved in the Itamar article yesterday and also, albeit to a much lesser extent, with the Itamar attack article that split off of it. My immediately following comments may therefore be considered, and may indeed be, biased. On the matter of Revert #1, in all fairness it ought not to be classified as a Revert. I removed a photo placed in the Reactions sections, feeling that that was not an appropriate place for it; whereupon User:Jalapenos do exist proceeded to restore the photo in the Victims section – which, at least in relative terms, was a more appropriate place for it (or less inappropriate, depending on how you want to construe it).

I can sympathize with User:Gatoclass' remark about the article taking on what could be considered, and indeed may have been, a biased character. I commented to that effect on the Discussion page with regard to the omission of Prime Minister Fayyad's formal condemnation and with regard to the (spurious, in my view) attribution of responsibility to the Fatah party. The Jerusalem Post article that was the source for the first paragraph of the Palestinian reaction did include information to the effect that Fayyad condemned the massacre, but the editor(s) elected not to include it in the article. It also explained that Fatah did not directly claim responsibility for the massacre but rather that a faction of Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade did – but this comment too went unaddressed.

However, I would not be as hasty as User:Gatoclass in concluding that User:Jalapenos do exist's edits deliberately left out information. One must keep in mind the fact that this was a clear case of aggressor and victim. Oftentimes that relationship is not so sharply defined in the ongoing cycle of violence between Israel and the Palestinians but, given the circumstances, in this case it is only natural to frame it in those terms. Furthermore, specifically with regard to the Fatah point, User:Jalapenos do exist may simply not have been informed enough as an editor on the dynamics of the Palestinian's quasi-political/quasi-paramilitary leadership structures. That is to say, he may candidly have been unaware of the distinction between Fatah and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

I'm not one to draw clear conclusions one way or the other, but these observations are what I have to contribute to the discussion for the benefit of those that will ultimately need to draw them.—Biosketch (talk) 17:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Cptnono

Since the concern over edit warring has been withdrawn this is only a case of POV pushing. I agree that JDE created a article that was overly emotional. It is an overtly emotional subject. We cannot punish an editor for writing about a dead baby. If he was not edit warring then he did nothing many editors would not do. So if he was not edit warring he was simply adding a POV that any rationale editor should understand. He did not edit war over it and instead let other editors counter the expected POV. When babies do not die then editors will not have to mirror the sources. Next time he should try harder but if an admin can honestly say they see a problem with an editor writing an article about an emotional subject then they need to go check out the new page patrol page. Gatoclass should accept that he made a request for enforcement on partially false pretenses and drop it. JDE should try harder to write less emotionally even when it deals with dead babies. Dead babies die in Gaza City so this statement could be reversed to apply to POV pushers on the other side. No edit warring? What is the problem Gatoclass? Cptnono (talk) 07:18, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Cooment by BorisG

I agree with Biosketch. If an article appears one-sided (as this one arguably did), the right thing to do is to correct or remove the bias and include missing info, not to file an AE request. Since there was no attempt by JDE to dispute or disrupt such changes, there is no justfification for any sanction (perhaps a warning). And both sides will do well by assuming good faith and avoiding gross incivility expressed in some comments above.

On a more general point, I think admins should consider discouraging any future AE requests by editors involved in disputes. Why? Because this page itself has become a battleground. I think this should apply to both sides. Don't know how practical this is, just an idea. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 14:38, 14 March 2011 (UTC) - BorisG (talk) 14:38, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning Jalapenos do exist[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
  • After a brief review, the only potentially actionable problem I see is the accusation that Jalapenos do exist may have misrepresented the source [96] when he wrote that "Fatah, the group that controls the Palestinian National Authority, released a statement [claiming responsibility] by its militia", whereas the source reads: "PA officials in Ramallah expressed skepticism over a statement released by Fatah’s militia ..." This does appear to attribute responsibility to the PA and Fatah in a way that the source does not. I'd appreciate a comment by Jalapenos do exist on this matter.

    The other accusations have been withdrawn (1RR) or do not seem actionable to me: Whether the article as a whole conformed to WP:NPOV when it was created, or whether relevant information was omitted, is probably a content dispute that cannot be decided in an arbitration context.  Sandstein  22:14, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

  • The first point raised by Unomi is also potentially problematic. Jalapenos do exist wrote in the article that "Hamas, the group that governs the Gaza Strip, did not claim responsibility, but stated that the incident was a Palestinian "revenge" attack on Israelis", citation marks in the original. This text is sourced to [97]. Nowhere does this source contain the words "Hamas" or "revenge", or the assertion that Hamas did not claim responsibility, or even the assertion that Palestinians did it. That claim is attributed to "Israeli media" in the source: "Israeli media claimed that angry Palestinian [sic] attacked ...". This looks like another potential source misrepresentation.  Sandstein  23:25, 13 March 2011 (UTC) Apparently the source has changed in the interim.  Sandstein  20:42, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
  • I am unconvinced by Jalapenos do exist's explanation concerning the PA/Fatah source misrepresentation issue. I've taken note that the requesting editor now only asks for a warning. Given that non ultra petita does not apply to AE requests, we are not bound by that request to "downgrade" the sanction. Nonetheless, under these circumstances, closing the request with a warning may be prudent so as not to unnecessarily inflame tempers, and if no admin disagrees, I will do so.  Sandstein  21:45, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Without objection, so closed. Jalapenos do exist is warned not to misrepresent sources when contributing content to Wikipedia.  Sandstein  16:31, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Jacurek[edit]

Jacurek, Volunteer Marek, Dr. Dan and Lokyz are sanctioned as described in this thread; M.K is warned.  Sandstein  06:47, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Jacurek[edit]

User requesting enforcement 
Fut.Perf. 09:22, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
Jacurek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated 
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 

Jacurek, who has a long history of disruption and sanctions relating to eastern European topics, after coming back from a ban, has focussed his editing almost entirely on lame edit-warring over the inclusion of Polish, German or Lithuanian geographical terms in the leads of various articles.

He also made the obvious WP:POINT move of removing the German name from Gdansk [116], explicitly in retaliation, and in blatant breach of the long-standing Gdansk rules.

More edit-warring just under 3RR elsewhere: on Ukrainische_Hilfspolizei, [117][118][119]

One thing that's troubling is that the same old cliques and tag-teams known from the WP:EEML days are still showing up together on the same articles regularly in many of these cases.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

not applicable, has long history of Digwuren and EEML sanctions

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction
renewed revert restriction at the least, preferably full topic ban from geographical naming issues, or full ban
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 
I would take action myself here, as I have done before, if not for the fact that in one of the contentious naming issues cited above I gave my own editorial opinion earlier. Fut.Perf. 09:22, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Re. to Piotrus' comment below: asking "who gave me the diffs" is a pretty serious assumption of bad faith all by itself. I'm perfectly able to collect diffs myself. I saw something light up on Jacurek's talkpage (which happened to be still on my watchlist from time immemorial), and out of curiousity took a look at what he had been up to. Fut.Perf. 16:29, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 
[120]

Discussion concerning Jacurek[edit]

Statement by Jacurek[edit]

Recently, I focused my work on adding missing alternative names to the articles related to shared Lithuanian, Polish, Jewish, Belorussian or Ukrainian history and heritage following general naming policy . I have beed editing without violating any standards of behaviour and in line with normal editorial process. All my edits/reverts presented here are spread out over time, discussed by me [121], [122], [123] [124], [125], [126] or in line with discussion I followed [127] and ALL are supported by the WP:NCGN. I stated in my edit summaries why I'm doing such edits and the polices I followed [128]

I was adding alternative names in various languages:

  • German names to Polish places:

[129] [130]

  • Polish names to Belorussian places:

[131]

  • Yiddish, Belorussian, Ethnic Kashubian and Ukrainian names to Polish places:

[132] [133] [134] [135] [136] [137] [138]

  • Polish, Yiddish and Russian names to Ukrainian places:

[139] [140] [141] [142] [143]

  • Lithuanian names to Polish places:

[144] [145] [146] [147] [148] [149]

  • Latvian, Belorussian, Russian to Lithianian palces:

[150] [151]

  • ...and finally Polish names to the Lithuanian places:

[152] [153] [154] [155] [156] Here however, all my edits were immediately reverted by Dr. Dan (talk · contribs), M.K (talk · contribs) and Lokyz (talk · contribs)) I was called Dyslexic [157], amusing, a troll [158], a nationalistic troll [159][160] chauvinist playing games [161] etc. Disrespect, taunting and incivility was also directed at other people by mentioned editors: ex-admin RPG player is trying to make a project of Wikipedia a playground of his own [162] [163] [164] Please note that one was warned by administrator because of these incivil remarks [165] and another complained about [166].

Here are just few diff's as an examples of the name removals by mentioned editors: [167] [168] [169] [170] [171] [172] [173] [174]


  • As far as removing a German name from the lead of the Gdansk [175] article I reverted my own edits [[176]] [[177]] from December in line with this discussion [178] and linked this talk page in my edit summary [179]. This edit was NOT to make any point.
  • As far as IP sock: [184] - this is not me and I wonder why FP can so easily and without any proof accuse people of using socks?


Why was I singled out and accused of violating the polices by Future Perfect at Sunrise? EXACTLY the same report could have been filed by him on user Dr. Dan (talk · contribs), M.K (talk · contribs) or Lokyz (talk · contribs):


The bottom line is that I was following normal editorial process, watching revert count limitations and all my edits were supported by the WP:NCGN. We really have an opportunity now to resolve ongoing problem of removal by some Lithuanian editors all Polish names from the articles related to the Polish-Lithuanian heritage and reach the agreement thanks to discussion here [215]. I echo this comment [216] %100. Please Sandstain, look outside the AE box this only time and the problem will gone.--Jacurek (talk) 02:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


MISSED FROM MY GDANSK SECTION-PLEASE ADD - please do not classify me together with editors who remove one language names for nationalistic reasons. I was editing names in various languages (German, Polish, Russian, Lithuanian, Yiddish, Latvian, Latvian and Byelorussian) - Refer to my edit history. [217] - (adding German) then correcting to follow standards [218] --Jacurek (talk) 21:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting--Jacurek (talk) 21:51, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Third opinion of an uninvolved administrator[edit]

As per permission of the reviewing administrators third opinion has been requested[219] Thank you all for patience.--Jacurek (talk) 02:32, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Jacurek[edit]

Comment by Volunteer Marek[edit]

There's an ongoing discussion about the proper way of handling alternative names here [220]. The underlying problem is complete disregard for naming policy on the part of Dr. Dan/Lokyz/MK. This is compounded by the fact that there is some confusion over what the actual policy is. Hence the discussion.

Jacurek's edits at Gdansk where a response - and in line with - to the discussion as it was occurring at Naming conventions (the diff above), with comments provided by a third opinion (which I requested) at Vilnius university [221], and are in agreement with views expressed by such individuals like User:Novickas and User:Deacon of Pndapetzim who are about as far as humanely and even super-humanely possible from being "same old cliques and tag-teams known from the WP:EEML days." As such Jacurek's edits are part of the standard BRD cycle, are not edit warring, and none of them are in any way a breach of policy.

Throughout Jacurek has remained calm and civil despite several provocations. In particular, Dr. Dan has made several personal attacks against various users:

  • [222] Dr. Dan calling editors "nationalist trolls"
  • [223] Dr. Dan calling editors "nationalist trolls"
  • [224] Dr. Dan taunting Piotrus, shortly after coming off an interaction ban with him: ("It's nice to have you back editing after your sabbatical. It must have been an unpleasant experience. ")
  • [225] Dr. Dan implies that editors are "nationalistic, chauvinistic"

At the naming conventions discussion Deacon of Pndapetzim, who I think can fairly be characterized as an "opponent" of people who used to be on the Eastern European mailing list has stated: Without wishing to offend anyone, my experience of other language names in leads is that they function in practice as nationalist scent markings. Jacurek's edits were completely in line with this sentiment.

Additionally Deacon stated, in reference to inclusion of German names in ledes of articles on Polish places: Can't say I approve of most of those edits. - again, in line with Jacurek's above edits.

Likewise, Deacon said: in those cases this should be in the main text with citations not just in brackets at the lead, where it looks like simple nationalist scent-marking and is thus provocative.

At Vilnius University, user Novickas, who can also be seen as usually on the other side of the issue stated: Yes, I think all articles ought to follow WP:Lead, which emphasizes concision and readability, but leaves room for an entity's multiple names by way of a dedicated name section. - again in reference to the inclusion of German names in Polish places.

As such Jacurek's edits are not in any way a way of making a POINT but rather a response to what people are saying the policy is.

Did I mention that none of Jacurek's edits in any way violated any kind of policy what so ever?

Finally, let me point out that a discussion on the subject is actually ongoing and amazingly, for like the first time in a long while it is actually civil, calm and is even starting to look productive, people who previously have very strongly disagreed with each other in the past might actually be able to work something out and about the last freakin thing that is going to help here is a completely pointless and baseless AE report such as this one which good money says will do nothing but attract the usual infighting, bickering and sniping.

What is the point of this AE report? How is it not counter productive? Why do you find it necessary to sabotage a potentially productive discussion?Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Response to Sandstein's suggestion and Ed Johnston

You can't judge/sanction editors based on whether they're "engaged in a campaign of mass removal or mass addition" if the editor involved is following established naming guidelines. For comparison look at User:HerkusMonte's edits [226] (and I wish to be 100% clear that this is no way a criticism of Herkus), particularly all the edits with the edit summary "lang-de" which in the recent past have comprised the majority of Herkus' editing on Wikipedia. Jacurek's edits are no different than Herkus' and neither editor did anything wrong. The only difference is that when Herkus "engages in his campaign of mass addition" he IS NOT immediately reverted by tag teams of Polish editors who also refuse to discuss the issue meaningfully and some of whom engage in personal attacks - but this does happen with addition of Polish names to places with shared Polish and Lithuanian history. Unlike Jacurek, Herkus is left alone, because he is more or less following current naming policy (again, if that is the appropriate policy is another question) - just like Jacurek was.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

We're not examining mass additions or removals per se, but edit wars. Whether the reverts conform with any naming policy or guideline is irrelevant for the purpose of this request, because the edit-warring policy does not exempt such reverts.  Sandstein  18:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
I understand perfectly well that AE is not about judging compliance of edits with the naming policy. However it is also the case that in one instance you get edit wars because a group of editors does not wish to comply with naming policy, whereas in the other case - which involves exactly the same kinds of edits - you don't get edit wars because, well, because the editors on both sides are more reasonable and have no problem with following policy. As such, punishing Jacurek in this case, even if he reverted others is tantamount to rewarding the battleground behavior of those who purposefully ignore this naming policy. If the purpose of this board is to prevent conflicts from continuing in this area then encouraging this kind of behavior is obviously not the way to further that goal. A bit of common sense is needed here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:09, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Response to this "list" business Uhh, not sure what this list is supposed to be or what it is supposed to accomplish (in fact, it's a bad idea to begin with) but for what it's worth:

  1. I've never edited St. Anne's Church, Vilnius or Cathedral Square, Vilnius.
  2. I made one edit to Suvalkija back in August (so 5+ months ago) after Lokyz removed the name with an edit summary that made no sense, but I didn't make any further edits even after he blind reverted me literally within minutes ([227], [228], [229]) (btw, please note that "Suvalkų kraštas", the Lithuanian term, has been in the article on the Suwałki Region for something like 3 years straight and no Polish editor ever tried to remove it - which is quite telling when you compare it to the situation at Suvalkija).
  3. On Vilnius University, after observing the blind reverts by Lokyz [230], [231], I started a discussion on talk on March 5th [232] without making any edits myself. Please note that Lokyz's edit summary justification for his revert was: PLease use talk page before starting edit war. (on an edit war he started) - however, once I started a discussion on talk he didn't even bother to reply or actually discuss. Hence, four days later on March 9th, I made the change to the article - this was my single edit to the article. Of course it got reverted within minutes (again - well, actually this time it took him two hours) [233]. At that point I requested a third opinion [234], still not making any edits to the article myself. Novickas at this time edited the article by expanding the names section which is fine with me. Note the pattern here: Lokyz, Dr. Dan and MK blind revert, while at the same time admonishing users to "discuss on talk" or claiming that there is "no consensus" yet, they then don't even bother discussing things when a discussion is initiated. If they do discuss the discussion is very quickly derailed by irrelevant strawmen (like discussion of whether the article on cat should have the Polish "kot" in it [235], even though no one has ever proposed that - you can also ask Kotniski about how productive these "discussions" tend to be and why that is).
  4. On Bernardine Cemetery I was also the one who initiated the discussion on talk in the first place, way back in October [236] (though note previous personal attacks by Lokyz, who calls Jacurek dyslexic and says "Dyslexic people are amusing" which is extremely offensive in its own right, no matter who it is directed at). Jacurek likewise tried to engage in good faithed discussion [237] (note also Dr. Dan's mocking of Kotniski [238] in response to [239] with the "Er,..." parody of Kotniski's statement - seriously how is meaningful discussion possible in such circumstances?). Since the talk page consensus appeared to be for the inclusion of the name, and since Lokyz and Dr.Dan ceased participating in the discussion, I made one edit to the article [240] restoring the name (my edits in November where just a standard expansion of the article) on March 7th, or three months after I initiated discussion). The edit was again reverted within minutes by Lokyz [241] with an edit summary in which he purposefully used my previous name (in what I took to be a form of harassment), despite the fact that I had previously asked him specifically not to do that [242] and to which he agreed. I made no further edits to the article after that but instead brought the matter to talk again. Here's the sad/ironic thing - recently through a joint Polish-Lithuanian effort the cemetery was restored as a symbol of Polish-Lithuanian friendship and joint history, and the Lithuanian government funded a sign with the Polish name at the entrance to the cemetery - since generally public signs written in Polish are banned in Lithuania this was a "big deal". But apparantly, some editors are more nationalistic than the Lithuanian government.
  5. On Gdansk I made a single edit because the article already has a section which discusses the name in much detail and I was just being told by Novickas and Deacon that policy says that in such cases there's no need for a separate inclusion of the name in the lede. I did not edit war here and don't even try to freakin' pretend that I did. This is total nonsense.

Bottom line: I made one edit at Suvalkija long time ago which was reverted within minutes and I made no subsequent edits. I made one edit at Vilnius University and when it was reverted, within less than three hours, asked for third opinion. At Bernardine Cemetery I initiated discussion on talk and only after it seemed like an agreement was reached for inclusion, and having given it enough time (3 months) did I make one edit and add the name. This too was reverted within minutes and I didn't edit the article any further. I think the picture that emerges here is crystal clear.

I also got to ask why you are limiting this to just these articles? MK regularly edit wars with Belorussians editors over similar matters [243]. Herkus adds German names to Polish places all the time - but never gets reverted because Polish editors, unlike Lithuanian ones, actually follow policy. Why isn't that relevant?Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The list is currently limited to the articles named in the request and the editors who have been making language-related reverts on them. If there are similar problems with other articles or other editors, I recommend that you make a separate AE request about them. If the same editors have also made similar reverts in other articles, or other editors have made similar reverts in the same articles, you can mention them here so that we may consider including them in the list. I should note that I think that your comment above, "Polish editors, unlike Lithuanian ones, actually follow policy", is extremely problematic, as it indicates nationalist prejudice on your part, and I will take it into account in the decision.  Sandstein  21:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Oh for Christ sake! My comment that "Polish editors, unlike Lithuanian ones, actually follow policy" obviously is in reference to the editors involved in this request - Lokyz, MK and Dr.Dan and then Jacurek and myself. There's no prejudice in it and it is factually verifiable as noted above. The whole request is about the fact that Lokyz, MK and DD have been purposefully ignoring naming policy. Why am I getting the sense that you are purposefully looking for any kind of excuse to railroad me into a sanction? First you put me in that little list of yours for no reason, and now you come up with this nonsense.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:30, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
I can see that the choice of words wasn't the best one and what I should have said was that "because I follow naming policy, unlike Dr. Dan, MK and Lokyz". Apologies. However, my temper at the moment is running extremely high because of the ridiculous insinuations that you (Sandstein) are making against me and the waste of my time that you are forcing me into - I just wasted an hour and a half of my life writing a response, instead of doing real life work, spending time with my kid, or even working on some Wikipedia article. As a result I wrote quickly and unclearly. I'm striking it above.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for this clarification, which I accept on a good faith basis. You must be extremely careful what you write, because statements that vilipend whole groups of editors on the basis of their nationality are completely unacceptable, especially in a WP:DIGWUREN context, and if you repeat such statements you may be sanctioned for them without further warning. I normally assume that people mean exactly what they write.  Sandstein  23:16, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
And if you want to see a previous discussion which is relevant here which says the same thing look here [244] and here [245]. Why not go after Kotniski here too? Why not include him in the "list"?Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:19, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
These diffs do not show that Kotniski added or removed languages to the articles at issue here. They cannot therefore be included in the list.  Sandstein  22:21, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
The diffs are not presented to show that Kotniski added or removed languages, but rather as a response to your threat to "take it (my hastily written statement) into account in the decision." Please address the relevant point, not a completely different point.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

This is completly wrong: Edit-warring to add or remove a language from any one article does not necessarily reflect bias, as there may be policy-based grounds for such reverts (even if these do not excuse edit-warring). But a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds, since the guideline makes reference to the use of names in English-language literature, which differs from topic to topic. Such a pattern of editing, therefore, can only be explained by a desire to put nationalist bias ahead of Wikipedia policy and guidelines. This makes such a pattern incompatible with WP:NPOV and, consequently, grounds for sanctions.

Specifically: But a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds - no, but it can be explained by the fact that editors will add the language which they are familiar with to a topic which they are familiar with. I'd happily add relevant names to articles on Fiji but I have no idea what these may be. Such a pattern of editing, therefore, can only be explained by a desire to put nationalist bias - no, it can be explained by the fact that editors edit topics they are familiar with. This makes such a pattern incompatible with WP:NPOV - since when is AE in the business of adjudicating content disputes, which is what WP:NPOV involves? To quote Sandstein himself: compliance with this guideline is a content issue, because it requires editorial judgment, and cannot therefore be reviewed in an arbitration context.

The above statement appears to be nothing but an attempt to find a flimsy excuse to sanction people who did nothing wrong. It is railroading plain and simple.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:46, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Add in light of Sandstein's insinuation of "nationalist editing I should also add that in the past I have

  1. defended User:HerkusMonte's addition of German names to Polish articles (within reason) (placeholder for diff here - gimme time to find it, wasting more of my time), and have done so recently at the naming conventions discussion [246] and elsewhere. I've generally have had an amicable relationship with Herkus (at least I think so) so why not ask HIM if he regards my revert of him as good faithed or as sanction-worthy? He's certainly not the person who brought this whole mess to AE. If he's not complaining why are YOU including it here?
  2. Added Yiddish names to Poland and Lithuania related articles
  3. Added Lithuanian names to Polish related articles.

Thus, Sandstein's charge/insinuation of "nationalist bias" is highly inflammatory, insulting, and essentially a personal attack. None of the provided diffs substantiate it and it is exactly the kind of statement that he himself regularly tries to sanction other editors for. Since the same rules apply to Sandstein in this respect as they do to other editors, I ask him to strike that portion of his statement.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Declined. Whether your edits (like those of the other editors) reflect nationalist bias is a matter under investigation in this request. My concern in this respect, above, was accompanied by a relevant diff. If you disagree with the eventual outcome of the request you can appeal against it. Assumptions of bad faith are unlikely to help your case.  Sandstein  22:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
There has been no evidence provided of "nationalist bias" so far and you should not make such charges against editors without substantiating them FIRST. Not a "they might or might not be substantiated later". You do sanction others exactly for such behavior hence you should not engage in it yourself. I am not assuming bad faith. I do question your judgment however.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Response to Deacon

Your comments at the naming conventions discussion did indeed imply that. But the point here is that after they were made Jacurek STOPPED adding names to the articles since it became clear that the policy itself was under dispute. His subsequent edits which are being dredged up here as "evidence" are completely in line with your view of the matter.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Response to Ed Johnston's comments (copied from his talk) [247] This ban would be applied to all editors listed below who have previously been sanctioned under any Eastern European cases - Ed, can you please explain to me why you are including me in this group? It appears you are doing so only because Sandstein included me there. But if you actually look at the list and read the comments, then you will notice that out of the six articles listed by Sandstein, two I've never edited in my life, and on the other four I made a single edit, sometimes long time ago (I have over 20k edits, I've even forgotten some of these) and when I was reverted, I ceased making any further edits.

There's no way that making a single edit on an article can be in any way construed as "edit warring" or anything else. I have also supported the inclusion of German names in Polish articles (within reason), and have added Lithuanian names to Polish articles [248] as well as Yiddish and Hebrew names to Polish articles (like I said, I got over 20k edits and I'm not going to waste my time going back and looking for the odd diff or so, but they're there). I've consistently applied WP:NCGN policy, regardless of the places involved. Of course I've mostly edited Poland related articles - I don't speak Portuguese, Yoruba or Nahuatl! At no point have I edit warred and in fact I asked for third opinion and discussed things on talk, and am currently in process of working on naming conventions guideline [249] in order to sort out this mess. Can you explain at all what would justify your proposal to sanction me?Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:19, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment on Sandstein and Deacon's discussion of BRD

  • Deacon: Why should anyone be punished for following it (BRD)? - yes, exactly.
  • Sandstein: WP:BRD involves stopping after a single revert. - yes, exactly. And that is precisely what I did. In each of these cases I ceased editing the relevant article as soon as I got reverted.
  • Deacon: BRD means that if you are bold, and you get reverted ... you discuss it. - did that too. Asked for third opinion, discussed things on talk, without making any further edits to the articles themselves
  • Deacon: It doesn't mean that if you revert a controversial edit you have to simply accept the edit if the other editor or a friend just doesn't feel like respecting BRD himself. - this is true and in fact allows for more reverts then I actually made, provided discussion is under way. I, in fact, did "accept the edit" and made no further changes to the articles.

The parts I disagree with:

  • Deacon: The editors placing the alternate names ..., know their edits will be opposed but apparently think it worth the fight. - No. The editors placing in the names are simply following policy at WP:NCGN. Now, you might disagree with the policy as she is written, but that's why we're having a discussion about it at present. It is the editors who are removing the names that are acting against policy and being disruptive.

Likewise

  • Deacon: we should be predisposed to be sceptical towards the addition of these names, which in practice is usually nothing more than nationalist scent-marking; inserting them in knowledge of their controversy is the behaviour that is disruptive and violates our conduct policies; removing such inclusions follows our conduct policies. - Maybe we should be skeptical, but then that should be in the policy itself. As I said at the discussion repeatedly my main concern is that the situation is not treated consistently. There's no edit wars on insertion of German names into Polish places (sometimes extremely small villages) and that's supposed to be fine. Same for insertion of Lithuanian names into Polish places. But if a Polish name (or for that matter Belorussian) gets put into a Lithuanian place the three editors mentioned above (Dr. Dan, Lokyz and MK) converge on the article and edit war to keep it removed and all hell breaks loose. If we're going to be skeptical in one case, we need to be skeptical in other cases as well. Otherwise you're singling out a particular group/country for special treatment (whether good or bad) and that can't be justified, either on policy or ethical grounds.
Additionally, saying that inserting names is nothing "more than nationalist scent-marking" is an unverifiable assertion (since you can't observe people's motives) and is potentially offensive to boot. Are these edits [250] [251] [252] [253] [254] [255] [256] [257] [258] [259] [260] [261] [262] [263] [264] (population 404), [265], [266] (population 282), [267] (population 27!!!), [268], [269], [270] (population 273), [271] (population 13!!!!!!!), [272], [273], [274] (population 16!!!), [275], [276], [277] (huge metropolis, population 280), [278], [279], [280], [281], [282], [283], [284], [285], [286], [287], [288], [289], [290], [291], [292], [293], [294], [295], [296], [297], [298], [299], [300], [301], [302], [303], [304], [305], [306], [307], [308], [309], [310], [311], [312], [313], [314], [315], [316], [317], [318], [319], [320], [321], [322], [323], [324] "nationalist scent-marking"? And that's just since March 1st!
Jacurek didn't do anything more than what Herkus is doing. He just had the misfortune of running into Dr. Dan, Lokyz and MK. He shouldn't be punished for that. And let's have Sandstein apply his own words, quote: " But a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds". Whose more consistently adding the same language to multiple articles? Herkus? Or Jacurek, who also added German names to Polish places, Lithuanian names to Polish places, etc.. Again, I don't think Herkus is doing anything wrong here, but neither is Jacurek.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:55, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
These diffs are by another user, HerkusMonte (talk · contribs). That user is not involved in the edit wars that are at issue in this request, and so their edits are not reviewed here. They can be made the subject of a separate AE request if they are believed to be sanctionable.

For the benefit of anybody reading this, I believe the discussion alluded to above is this one (permalink). It explains why, in my view, an editor is also engaged in (and therefore sanctionable for) edit-warring if they contribute a single revert to an edit war that is otherwise carried on mainly by others.  Sandstein  18:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, they are by another user who is not subject of this report but they are illustrative of the situation. For one thing they clearly show that your own condition that a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds - does not apply to Jacurek, neither in relative or absolute terms.
And the reason why the above edits are not subject to an AE report are that
  1. the point is that Herkus wasn't doing anything wrong and neither was Jacurek. Since I don't think Herkus is doing anything wrong, why in the world would I want to file an AE report on him? I'm basically saying "editor A is not at fault - for comparison see editor B who does the same thing and is also not at fault". And Sandstein replies with "you can take editor B to court if you want to" - what's the logic here?
  2. the reason Herkus didn't get into any edit wars is simply because he didn't have to contend with a "Dr. Dan" or a "Lokyz" or a "MK" (he does revert when reverted). But that's neither Herkus' nor Jacurek's fault. If somebody DID actually go and remove those massive name additions, what do you think would have happened? People shouldn't be punished for being reasonable.
  3. Future Perfect at Sunrise for some reason decided to single out and pick on Jacurek.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:16, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Piotrus[edit]

I am rather disappointed by FPS here.

First, I'd like to ask: who gave you those diffs and requested that you post to AE on their behalf? It's not like you have edited any of the articles in question, nor have you been a participant to any talk page discussions, as far as I am aware.

Second, I really hoped that the established editors with no axes to grind, in particular, respected admins (and I do respect FPS), would not use the "specter of EEML" poisoning the well argument. Instead of concentrating on editors who are creating the battleground through baiting and incivility (see VM post above), let's just go for the good, old EEML members, because, well, they are EEML, hence evil, hence the source of all problems, right? Somebody is being incivil to them? They surely deserved it. There is an edit war? Surely, they are the only guilty party.

Third, Jacurek has not violated any policy. Has 3RR been violated, even once? No. Has CIV been violated, even once? No. Regarding [325], this edit is in line with WP:NCGN, and the implication of this for Gdansk rule need to be discussed; I recently raised this on talk there. As things stand, however, NCGN explicitly suggests moving of alt. names from lead to a dedicated section and states they should not be restored, and Jacurek was acting within NCGN to the letter (now, I started a discussion on talk to discuss whether this letter is correct and benefits Wikipedia, but this is hardly an AE issue). Lastly, yes, there has been a slow edit war at some articles, but in most if not all cases, Jacurek is enforcing NCGN, where other editors, propagating battleground and disruption, are attempting to go against policies on those articles. NCGN supports foreign name in articles as long as they are significant (and NCGN has nice, simple check for significance - 10% of English google sources). On Cathedral Square, Vilnius (talk) I've shown NCGN applies, yet Jacurek's opponents have not bothered to discuss it - they just revert him. Ditto for Bernardine Cemetery. Nobody has done an analysis for St. Anne's Church, Vilnius, but I expect NCGN applies as well. On two other articles, in Vilnius University the nameing section was just expanded enough to warrant an end to inclusion of the name in lead. I'd have to look at Suvalkija more closely. Ukrainische Hilfspolizei seems totally unrelated to that and I'll have to review it more closely again.

Bottom line, Jacurek seems not to have violated any policies, most of his reverts are policy-supported (whereas most of those by his opponents are not), so how about the admins here focus on incivil, baiting editors and give the rest of us some breathing ground?

All that said, 1RR for everyone would be a good voluntary rule to declare. I hereby do so for my self, for the next month on all naming-affected articles, and I would strongly suggest everyone else follows suit. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 15:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Responce to FSP: Thank you for clarifying my question, and I apologize if the tone was too aggressive. I would still appreciate an explanation why you singled Jacurek for the report.
Comments for Sandstein and EdJohnston: I appreciate that you are willing to look further than just one side of the conflict. I would appreciate if you could tell me why did you decide to include Volunteer Marek in your analysis, with his 4 reverts total, each on a separate article, compared to Jacurek (19 reverts), MK (12 reverts), Dr Dan (14 reverts) and Lokyz (16 reverts). The last time I check, adhering to 1RR and BRD was the right thing to do... Wikipedia:Edit warring explicitly notes the need for repetetive reverts, so I am having trouble seeing why a user adhering to 1RR (or, even more clearly, making a single revert to an article in the space of many weeks or months) can be included in a discussion of edit warring. I also note that two of his reverts you cite specifically mention no responses for days or longer to discussion on talk. I would also appreciate clarification whether an editor reverting following a policy like NCGN and another reverting against it are to be treated as "equal"? Lastly, I would like to ask if you will be looking at incivility (which I think is at least as problematic as reverts), or just reverts. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 04:03, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Policy interpretation question at WP:EW: I raised a question related to interpretation of EW/BRD here. I would suggest that admins hold of on applying sanctions to VM till consensus is reached on that particular interpretation (this does not concern sanctions against other editors, IMHO). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:22, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Kotniski[edit]

Echoing most of what Piotrus says, I note that this issue will never be sorted out by applying unilateral sanctions against a randomly chosen editor or two on one side of the debate. It's been going on for years; somehow those who consistently remove non-Lithuanian names from Lithuania-related articles seem to be exempted from any kind of rebuke or sanction (which of course in no way justifies the pointy removal of non-Polish names from Poland-related articles) - but in any case, it's necessary to resolve the underlying issues, through some kind of mediation or preferably involvement from the community at large, to work out the best ways to present this kind of important information to readers without being dictated to by those on various sides who are clearly driven mainly by irrational nationalist sentiment. --Kotniski (talk) 16:17, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

AE is not really equipped procedurally for broad reviews covering many editors and their whole editing history. That would need a request for an arbitration case. But I suspect that after WP:DIGWUREN and WP:EEML the Committee is so fed up with this whole ensemble of editors and their obscure historical grievances that it would just indef topic-ban them all and throw away the key. And I suspect that we are coming to a point at AE where we'll come to the same conclusion eventually, one editor at a time.  Sandstein  16:24, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
My point is that we need to stop focusing on editors and their "editing history" (whether one, two or many) and address the substantial issues of disagreement. You're right that AE (and indeed ArbCom generally) is not equipped procedurally for anything except the same old types of editor-focused action which are already known not to work; which is why we need to start thinking outside the AE box here.--Kotniski (talk) 16:33, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Well, if people are trying to reach some new agreement at the geographical names guideline, that's great and I'm all for it. But Jacurek's editing was not directed towards creating such an agreement. He was just edit-warring. His talk page contributions are few, and all seem to be focussed merely on asserting his own position, which is rather overtly of the type "treat geographical names as symbolic badges of recognition of historical national claims of possesion". And it is precisely this mentality that is the problem here. Whatever eventual solution there may be for these questions, Jacurek's editing has been persistently part not of the solution but of the problem. Fut.Perf. 16:40, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Absolutely not true. I was just discussing the issue trying to reach agreement here [[326]] for example and on countess other talk pages. I was adding alternative names in various languages, your accusation of me trying to claim a "national possession" is ABSOLUTELY not true. FP - Can you please wait for my statement before posting more accusations? I should find some time this weekend to respond.--Jacurek (talk) 16:55, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
FP, as I said earlier, I do respect you, and I think you are partially right here. Jacurek was doing quite a few reverts. However, as I, VM and he himself pointed out, 1) he was not alone and 2) most if not all of his edits were in line with the policies (unlike those of his opponents). I wish he had used the talk more and reverted less, but he is less guilty than many others, and unlike some, he has been civil, and he has been following the NCGN policy more often then not. I don't understand why you have singled him out in this report? Saying this, I'd also strongly urge Jacurek to follow my advice and declare that he will voluntarily restrict himself to 1RR on articles with disputed naming (and I urge others to follow mine and hopefully, his suit in this). I'd also suggest that the admins here try to be more creative than blocks and topic bans (lot of good have they done in the past, as we can see) and instead impose a bunch of 1RR restriction on a number of editors who focus on reverting (1RR restriction is the correct scalpel-level solution for revert warring, although I know that some people prefer to nuke anything nail shaped instead...I hope this mentality will not be seen in this discussion). For those who promise to voluntarily restrain themselves but are later shown they didn't keep the word, I'd of course suggest harsher penalties in the future (community patience is not unlimited). I will end by saying that if the outcome of this AE will be punishing only one of the edit warring editors, and at that one who was mostly in line with NCGN and who was, unlike some of the others, civil, it will send a pretty bad message out. It would also be nice if people would stop dredging the "EEML specter", poisoning the well with "if an involved editor was a party to the EEML case, 100% of the problem lies with him" argument (intentionally or not, this is the effect I am seeing). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
I have no problem with voluntarily restricting myself to 1RR on articles with disputed naming, please consider this comment as my commitment. However my commitment alone will not eliminate the problem of removal by few Lithuanian editors all Polish names from the articles that share common Polish-Lithuanian heritage. There is hope that this amazingly constructive discussion that is going on here [327] will result in new rules being drafted and the issue will be resolved. --Jacurek (talk) 10:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Actually most of bigger Lithuanian cities have Polish names in the name section be it Vilnius, Kaunas or Biržai, as does Vilnius University, and it is according to the WP:NCGN section that suggests the names not to be returend to lead after such section is created. It was an agreement that was reached, and that was and still is violated by an editor who has opinion of his own. So there is no conspiracy to remove one nation names from other nations cities articles, as one is trying to persuade others.--Lokyz (talk) 12:59, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Lokyz, you kept removing Polish names from the articles given by you as examples and all others summarizing your reverts with "what's the Polish etymology of the name?"[328]which shows that the problem for you was not the place where alternative names should be included but existence of the Polish name itself. The name section has been created later because of the pressure applied by several editors. --Jacurek (talk) 10:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
and it is according to the WP:NCGN section that suggests the names not to be returend to lead after such section is createdObviously this is not a view shared by all editors as seen here where a German editor returns the Germanized name of a Polish city to the lead[329], this needs to be clarified. Personally I support the view, to remove names from lead, but if this is not accepted than there should be no double standards.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:59, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
I just want to remind Jacurek, taht on Talk:Biržai there was a discusssion, which finaly led to solution and compromise suitable for many users and many towns. I do also see a difference between a "Name" and translation of the object's description like it was noted on Talk:Bernardine Cemetery, and after this discussion the article remained stable for a long time, so I was thinking the compromise was reached.--Lokyz (talk) 17:23, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved Hodja Nasreddin[edit]

I followed several AE cases to understand what must be done by someone who wants to edit conflict-free, especially in the area of discretionary sanctions. Surprisingly, this boils down to a very simple rule: do not edit war under any circumstances. Even if you revert once a week, someone will bring you to AE. It goes like that: no reverts -> no conflicts -> no sanctions. This apply to all sides and almost all AE cases.Hodja Nasreddin (talk) 15:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Deacon of Pndapetzim[edit]

Don't understand why my comments at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) were mentioned. In the comments Volunteer Marek/Radek was referring to, I expressed my opinion that we ought to be weighted against having alternate culture names in leads (in order to avoid nationalist wars). As it appears this AE request was brought against Jakurek for going around inserting such names into leads, I'm very confused as to why my comments are claimed to support his case? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:23, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Punishing users for following BRD ... good idea?
Add: As I and others have argued at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) , we should be predisposed to be sceptical towards the addition of these names, which in practice is usually nothing more than nationalist scent-marking; inserting them in knowledge of their controversy is the behaviour that is disruptive and violates our conduct policies; removing such inclusions follows our conduct policies. I'm concerned about the level of actions being taken against certain users merely because, over a few years, they've reverted inclusion of alternate language versions of place-names. As placing these names (and indeed removing stable ones) is inherently controversial in these area, why does WP:BRD not apply? Why should anyone be punished for following it? I also find the idea that you can get sanction for some reverts of various warring IPs over a couple of years quite ghastly. This is simply punishing users for having an account: not a good idea. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:18, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
WP:BRD involves stopping after a single revert. The names at issue have been added and removed more than once. Also, edit-warring is forbidden no matter whether one reverts IPs or users with an account.  Sandstein  16:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
BRD means that if you are bold, and you get reverted ... you discuss it. It doesn't mean that if you revert a controversial edit you have to simply accept the edit if the other editor or a friend just doesn't feel like respecting BRD himself. The editors placing the alternate names, esp. in the last few years (the Piotrus 1 extends amnesty to edits preceding the case), know their edits will be opposed but apparently think it worth the fight. This is the disruptive behavior. Whether or not the disruptive behaviour causes an edit war depends on whether or the inserting users fight to keep their controversial edit; reverting any reverts of a controversial edit is the only way other users can practically adhere to the spirit of BRD. The way to solve this is not by punishing the users who are reacting to the controversial edits via BRD, but by adjusting our tolerance of such controversial edits in the first place. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:51, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Surprisingly, I am in (rough) agreement with Deacon here. At least one proposed sanction (on VM, who made no more than 1 revert to each article in question, and participated extensively in talk discussions) seems to say that "following BRD can still get you in trouble". Is this really a message we want to send to the community? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:40, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Mymolobaccount[edit]

Proposing topic bans to all editors who are actively working on solving the naming dispute so they won't be able to achieve solution to the issue? That's wikipedia at its finest. Sandstein's behaviour here and proposals are one of the most counterproductive to Wikipedia and cooperation between editors from opposed POV's that I have seen. Two opposite sites are sitting down to talk and solve the issue, Sandstein comes in and proposes to ban active participants instead of letting them work out a solution on which they are working in good faith and in civil manner. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:53, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Vecrumba[edit]

For the most part I have pretty good relations with editor on both sides of the fence, generally being "pro-" both sides. I would be happy to assist in mediating, anything is better than more draconian measures which breed nothing but bad blood. Unless someone proposing any solution is intimately aware of the historical conflicts underlying naming disputes, any action they take (hello admins!) will make things worse, not better. PЄTЄRS J VTALK 01:00, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I believe these are excessive sanctions. If they edit warred over naming conventions, they should be either placed on 1RR per week restriction or banned from editing names. Hodja Nasreddin (talk) 03:14, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment by M.K.[edit]

  • Diffs which supposedly should show my “nationalistic” revert warring with IP from 2008-2009 time frame lacks background. That IP is full time abusive revert warrior, I complained about abusive nature of that IP and his various IPs farm one, two, three times. Community offered little interest in those cases during that time, but surprise surprise Radeksz aka Volunteer Marek was the first who attacked me back then [330]. The same IP range reappearing in those articles again now [331] of course supporting EEML group as usual. Of cause none of current admins looking into these IP again.
  • From relevant time frame I made two reverts with 10 hour time gap on the listed article. I'm surprised that it could cause offense and I am sorry for that and whatever damage you think this might caused. I was frustrated that community is not willing to help nor do they care about, as I saw the case with disruptive IP case or the EEML case itself, when one of the most notorious groups are enabled to operate in old habits again as if EEML revelation never happened. For instance:

user: Volunteer Marek constantly stalking editors again:

Comment by BorisG[edit]

I would recomment to admins to err on the side of caution. If there are clear and persistent patterns of disruption (e.g. edit warring), sanctions may be called for. However without a persistent pattern, a warning is enough. Also if disruption is caused in a very niche area like this naming saga, sanctions should only apply to this activity. Topic banning editors for niche violations is throwing productive editors with the bathwater.

I would also suggest that admins give a strong warning to all involved editors NOT to use the AE page as a battleground. - BorisG (talk) 17:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for that uninvolved perspective. The sooner AE is closed down as a forum for content control—specifically, not entertaining charges of disruption unless there are clear and repeated violations of 3RR, sockpuppetry, et al.—the sooner editors will be forced to deal with each other. PЄTЄRS J VTALK 18:56, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
One area where I would sanction draconian measures is perma-banning anyone who sockpuppets in an area of conflict. There's no excuse for that. Unfortunately, in the Wikiworld, that would only result in immediate charges of sockpuppetry, for example, where multiple editors might attend the same university. The moral is, the more draconian the enforcement, the larger the carrot being held out to those seeking to control content. For now, those editors control content the most effectively who have mastered the art of the unintended consequences of enforcement. PЄTЄRS J VTALK 19:04, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Novickas[edit]

I'm really sorry to see that we haven't been working towards compromise and consensus on the alternate names issue. Not surprised; there's a lot of long-standing bad blood. But I think the problem would be better addressed by more discussion at the guideline pages and more participation by outsiders at the individual articles. (I don't think they need to be experts in the area.) I'd rather see a 1RR per week/per editor for renaming (in Sandstein's intepretation of renaming) at all Eastern European articles. Because the admins here will be wanting to keep clear of voicing their opinions at these articles, could we agree on a separate venue to discuss them? Pick some previously-uninvolved editor out of the pool of mediators, say? Novickas (talk) 00:27, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning Jacurek[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I encourage editors to make only comments directly pertinent to the request, because "the usual infighting, bickering and sniping", as Volunteer Marek puts it, is likely to WP:BOOMERANG in the form of sanctions. Fut. Perf., I agree that the request looks actionable at first glance, but without a WP:DIGWUREN notification diff, we are forbidden to act on it.  Sandstein  14:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Jacurek has been sanctioned (and, through each sanction, obviously, also warned) under DIGWUREN half a dozen times. Just look at the log. Fut.Perf. 16:12, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
But we still need a diff of a valid warning for the record. This should do, and I recommend that you complete the request with it.  Sandstein  16:18, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Indeed, this will do, and, with all due respect, demanding that I also paste it somewhere up there now that you've already seen it is taking bureaucratic process-wonkery to an unprecedented extreme. No, I won't. Fut.Perf. 16:23, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, as a preliminary opinion, I think that there is actionable evidence that several editors have engaged in edit-warring to remove or add names from the leads of the articles named by Fut.Perf. and Jacurek, as can be seen in the history of e.g. Bernardine Cemetery (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I suggest that we compile a consolidated list of reverts by editor and decide on that basis whether to sanction anybody, after requesting the involved editors to comment. If not other admin disagrees, I'm going to start compiling such a list.  Sandstein  06:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I believe that any campaigns of mass removal or mass addition of alternate-language names should be looked into. Sandstein's idea of making a consolidated list of reverts sounds good. EdJohnston (talk) 13:22, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I've started the list below; all admins are welcome to help complement it. We should try to cover all previously EE-warned editors and recent edit wars.  Sandstein  19:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Before we start discussing sanctions against individuals, I submit the following principles for administrator discussion:
  • Whether the reverts complied with the applicable naming guidelines is irrelevant, as such edits are not exempt from WP:EW. Also, compliance with this guideline is a content issue, because it requires editorial judgment, and cannot therefore be reviewed in an arbitration context.
  • Reverts from earlier years are relevant insofar as they are part of a continued edit war involving the same editors, or as part of a pattern of adding or removing the same language (see below).
  • Edit-warring to add or remove a language from any one article does not necessarily reflect bias, as there may be policy-based grounds for such reverts (even if these do not excuse edit-warring). But a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds, since the guideline makes reference to the use of names in English-language literature, which differs from topic to topic. Such a pattern of editing, therefore, can only be explained by a desire to put nationalist bias ahead of Wikipedia policy and guidelines. This makes such a pattern incompatible with WP:NPOV and, consequently, grounds for sanctions.  Sandstein  21:10, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Further admin comments about the Result concerning Jacurek[edit]

  • I've made a new sub-heading to clarify that this is where admin comments can continue. Move this section below if you prefer. I'm glad Sandstein has collected the evidence on these articles because it helps narrow the issue. I see that other participants have also been notified, and we await their responses. Among the possible actions we might take, we could consider a ban on adding or removing any alternate names for articles. This ban would be applied to all editors listed below who have previously been sanctioned under any Eastern European cases. This would mean renaming bans for all the editors below except M.K., who could be notified of the discretionary sanctions and warned. Banned editors could still argue on the talk pages for changing the alternate names.
  • This assumes that the discussion here reaches a conclusion on which of these changes in alternate names exceed the limits of good-faith editing. Sandstein's argument is that consistent changes to promote the same ethnicity are usually in bad faith. I see the logic of that, especially for people who were previously sanctioned. (These aren't newcomers who are unfamiliar with our customs). EdJohnston (talk) 05:32, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
  • A renaming ban is a good idea for (at least some of) the editors discussed here. But I'm not convinced it that it is sensible to extend it to all editors under EE sanctions. We have no evidence that this is a widespread problem in this topic area (although I wouldn't be surprised if it were) or with most previously sanctioned editors.  Sandstein  21:53, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
  • My proposal is to consider a renaming ban only for the editors named in your table below who are also under EE sanctions. Perusal of the dates of these reverts of the alternate names shows that a good number of the reverts have occurred since 1 March. If there is a recent upsurge, and if the editors below are the main ones doing the reverting, that is a reason why they should come to our attention. It distinguishes them from the other sanctioned EE editors. EdJohnston (talk) 22:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Right, I agree; I misread you. I'm proposing an editor-by-editor analysis and sanctions below, based on the principles submitted above and the evidence collected below.
  • Jacurek has engaged in nationalist edit-warring about names, violating WP:EW and WP:NPOV. He has a very long history of EE sanctions, up to a 6 months topic ban, so his "last chance" moment has already passed. Proposed sanction: indefinite EE topic ban.
  • Volunteer Marek has made individual reverts in support of and in conjunction with Jacurek's nationalist edit-warring about names. He has a moderate history of EE sanctions, and notably a past sanction for covert coordination of edits with Jacurek (WP:EEML#Radeksz). Proposed sanction: six months renaming ban as described below; warning for expressing what sounds like nationalist prejudice on this page ("Polish editors, unlike Lithuanian ones, actually follow policy").
  • M.K has participated in nationalist edit-warring about names. They have not previously been warned about arbitration sanctions, so none can be imposed here. Proposed consequence: warning.
  • Dr. Dan has participated in nationalist edit-warring about names. He has also made mild personal attacks ("trolling", "trolling"). He has a moderate history of EE sanctions. Proposed sanctions: indefinite renaming ban, three months topic ban.
  • Lokyz has participated in nationalist edit-warring about names. He has also made slightly more serious personal attacks ("ex-admin RPG player", "Dyslexic"). He has a limited history of EE sanctions. Proposed sanctions: indefinite renaming ban, three months topic ban.
A renaming ban mans that the editor is banned from changing, removing or adding names (including translations) in a Eastern European language with respect to a subject that the same article already designates with a name in another Eastern European language. This notably also covers anything that appears as part of the article (such as categories, images or templates), and moving pages. For the purpose of this ban, "Eastern European language" includes German.  Sandstein  23:11, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
@Sandstein: I support all the bans you've recommended above. I suggest keeping this open for at least another 24 hours to see if more admins will comment. EdJohnston (talk) 00:31, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Considering that the principles and sanctions proposed above have not been opposed by an administrator after two and a half days; that no other administrator (or uninvolved user) has commented here a day after a request for more input at WP:AN, that I have discussed the application of WP:EW to this case in more detail at my talk page, that the arguments advanced by the users at issue (to the extent that they have made a statement at all) are unpersuasive; based on the considerations above and the evidence below, in application and enforcement of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions, the sanctions proposed above are enacted. They are notified to the users and logged at WP:DIGWUREN#2011.  Sandstein  06:45, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Name-changing reverts in the EE topic area[edit]

Jacurek[edit]

Jacurek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (warning), partially copied from the request

Previous sanctions: many blocks up to 3 months for topic-related misconduct; WP:DIGWUREN 1RR restriction (2009) and interaction ban (2010); WP:EEML#Jacurek and WP:EEML#Jacurek topic banned (6 months in Dec 2009)

Volunteer Marek[edit]

Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), previously editing as Radeksz (warning)

Previous sanctions: Three non-overturned topic-related blocks; WP:EEML#Radeksz and WP:EEML#Radeksz topic banned (rescinded in June 2010)

M.K[edit]

M.K (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (notified) (no warning found)

Previous sanctions: none

Dr. Dan[edit]

Dr. Dan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (notified) (warning)

Previous sanctions: 2 incivility blocks, WP:DIGWUREN interaction ban for 3 months in 2010

Lokyz[edit]

Lokyz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (notified) (warning)

Previous sanctions: One non-overturned AE block; Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern European disputes#Lokyz admonished and restricted for edit-warring (2008)

Tentontunic[edit]

Closing as no action. Insufficient evidence provided for violation of 1RR and most recent revert cited is 54 hours old. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 05:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Tentontunic[edit]

User requesting enforcement 
TFD (talk) 02:14, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
Tentontunic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated 
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/#Digwuren
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 

Violation of 1RR:

  1. [334] 8:30, 16 March. 2011
  2. [335] 23:11, 16 March, 2011
  3. [336] 0:47, 17 March, 2011
  4. [337] 23:51, 17 March, 2011

(2 & 3 are adding new material - 1 & 4 are deleting material.)

  • Reply to T. Canens (1) 1. is re-writing the section " Western perspectives on terrorism committed by groups claiming adherence to Communist ideology/Usage of the term" and removal of a synthesis tag. 2. is new material - Tentontunic had added similar material to Mass killings under Communist regimes, and I confused the articles. 3. is insertion of text at the beginning of a section that changes the emphasis - the section originally began by saying that "Communist terrorism" was "a term used by the Nazi Party as part of a propaganda effort". It now begins "one of the features of [the Bolshevik government] was the use of terrorism". 4. is deletion of the section "Usage of the term. Tentontunic set up an RfC which is still on-going to consider changes because "no clear consensus has been reached".[338] (2) A request for clarification determined that this article comes under Eastern European articles and 1RR was imposed under Digwuren sanctions.[339] TFD (talk) 12:58, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Reply to Sandstein The article comes under "the EE topic area anyway" because EdJohnston put discretionary Digwuren sanctions on the article. This was based on a request for clarification that was agreed to by Steve Smith, Coren, Fritpoll, Vassyana, SirFozzie, KnightLago, Hersfold, Mailer diablo/A, and Rlevse.[340] I suggest that if Sandstein wants to apply sanctions against me for believing that this article should be included under Digwuren sanctions that he apply for sanctions against those arbitrators and administrators as well, just as he has complained about Dreadstar. I would also ask Sandstein whether he believes that the personal attacks by Tentontunic represent a standard of which he approves. TFD (talk) 05:28, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Personal attacks on other editors:

And Jonathan is wrong, it really ought to surprise me that you would restore a BIAS tag on this article, yet on left wing terrorism you remove one within a few hours. You argue on communist terrorism to no end, you appear to be tendentious in your approach to articles which may be critical of communism in fact. Did you not just get warned for just this behavior? We have here an article, about mass killings which happened under communist regimes, it does not matter how many died under capitalism, or democracy, or the rule of the evil overlords of the mole people. What matters on this article is how many died under Communist Regimes. Tentontunic (talk) 23:14, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[341]

Then why do I require yours? Should you try and add your proposal to the article you will require consensus, just as I do. What you have written above is little more than propaganda, and an entire waste of time. You say you wish to see a NPOV article, then please try and write in a NPOV manner. Tentontunic (talk) 00:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[342]

I added my proposed content above today, the proposal had two editors who agreed with the inclusion, P Siebert reverted this with the edit summary, no consensus. But then proceeded to add content only he himself has agreed to. I fully intend to remove this as it is nothing more than a propaganda piece. And I should like Paul Siebert to explain why he feels justified adding content with no consensus, but removing content which at least had two people agree to and only him objecting. Tentontunic (talk) 19:05, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[343]

So what your saying is, I need consensus, and you do not? As stated, what you have written is pure propaganda, there is no other way to describe it. You have basically written "these are not communists" You have given undue weight to a fringe uncited paper, you have made an entire hash of it. It`s junk and needs to be excised, at least what I had written was mainstream and neutral. Tentontunic (talk) 23:03, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[344]

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
  1. [345] Warning by The Four Deuces (talk · contribs)
  2. [346] Warning by Paul Siebert (talk · contribs) 20:03, 17 March, 2011
Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction
Block or warning
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 
<Your text>
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 
[347]

Discussion concerning Tentontunic[edit]

Statement by Tentontunic[edit]

Comments by others about the request concerning Tentontunic[edit]

Upon reading the TFD's request I realised that some comments are needed, because the way TFD represented the issue is somewhat confusing, and for an uninvolved person it is almost impossible to understand the underlying conflict. I personally believe that this request is somewhat premature, however, as far as it has been filed, we have to continue with that.
This story starts with this Tentontunic proposal [348] made on Feb 26, which was an absolutely correct step from the procedural point of view.
This proposal lead to long debates, and eventually I asked Tentontunic's permission to take this text as a base and to modify it, a proposal he totally agreed with [349].
I have made some changes (considerable changes), which, in my opinion, fixed accuracy and POV issues of the proposed text [350], and from this moment the things started to develop in a wrong way.
Firstly, Tentontunic initially declared that the text is awful and requested for references [351].
My request to explain what concretely is wrong with the text was rejected [352], and I had to do some time consuming job to collect needed references to address Tentontunic's request [353].
When the needed references have been provided, Tentontunic stopped to respond.
However, immediately after the article became unprotected, he added his own (initial) version of his text into the article [354], totally ignoring my modifications, sources and arguments.
I added the modified version [355] (which, in my opinion, was quite a natural step, because by abstaining from discussion Tentontunic implicitly recognised that he had no counter-arguments), and this my edit was reverted back [356] under a pretext that there is no consensus for either proposal.
In connection to that, I have to say that Tentontunic's understanding of the consensus policy is deeply flawed, because he believes that unsupported claims like: "" It`s junk and needs to be excised, at least what I had written was mainstream and neutral" are sufficient to remove a properly referenced text from the article. I recommend to read the discussion in the Talk:Communist terrorism#Recent changes section to get a more complete impression about this story.
My conclusion is that, since Tentontunic is a relatively unexperienced user, it would be possibly premature to speak about serious sanctions, however he has to be seriously warned about the need to observe WP policy.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:09, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

AE is to be used for complaints related in some way to the arbitration result for Digwren. In the case at hand, this is a case of TFD using WP as a personal battleground. His actions about Tentontunic are not based on seeking NPOV on WP, but on silencing a voice he sees as opposing his. Including but limited to a remarkable series of AfDs [357] [358] and an egregious example [359] (really - read this one as a sparkling example of WP:BATTLEGROUND!) where the only way he would have ever found the articles is by looking at Tentontunic's edit history and not by actually randomly seeking out articles in any specific group or for any specific rationale otherwise. AE requests by TFD against Tentontunic at [360], edit war complaints made at [361], SPI report made at [362] showing an ongoing battleground which, properly examined, should not be held against Tentontunic. In point of fact, while Digwuren has little to do with any of this, I suggest that whoever examines this (noting Paul's rather unique view of this, and his similar views on many pages including one where he asserted that I must hold a specifc view on pseudoscience becasue I disagree with him on whether Communist terrorism is a proper topic for WP) examine the use of noticeboards repeatedly for WP:BATTLEGROUND acts. Examples of Paul's acts in this include: [363] wherein he asserts that I was not "uninvolved" with regard to pseudoscience issues because " L2 and Collect have been extensively involved in disputes on several Communism related WP pages, such as Communist terrorism and Mass killings under Communist regimes. It is not a secret that the users working in this area frequently display more or less pronounced partisan behaviour, and, taking into account that Collect and L2 definitely belong to the opposing camps, Collect can hardly be considered as a neutral uninvolved party in a discussion about the L2 block. ... For sake of objectivity, I believe I have to explain that, since I myself also frequently participate in Communism related disputes, and since L2 and I belong to the same camp, I cannot be considered as an uninvolved party." Paul is clearly acting here as a battleground ally, and admits it as such when he improperly accused me of taking sides on a what he considered a pseudoscience issue, and where my position may be read by any arbitrator or admin. Collect (talk) 07:27, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

@ T. Canaens: They are not, and are not. And have absolutely nothing to do with the topic of Digwuren sanctions. Note the WP:BATTLEGROUND at play. Collect (talk) 11:36, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


@ T. Canaens: Re your #2. This article is under 1RR applied per the discretionary sanctions authorized in the Digwuren case. Frankly speaking, I have no idea why the broad Communism topic has been connected to the Eastern Europe, however, that is a decision of administrators, who seem to bee seek and tired of the constant edit war over this article. One way or the another, since all editors working in this area appeared to be restricted with 1RR per the Digwuren case, the reports of the case when this system is gamed should be filed here.
Re your #1. As I already wrote, I see no formal violation of the 1RR in this case, so this report seems somewhat premature. However, the spirit of the policy is definitely violated, because the user removed the text that was written in full accordance with WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR policies under a laughable pretext that it is a piece of propaganda (without providing any support for that claim), and introduced another text where the same events were represented in a quite different way to push quite opposite POV. Concretely, this text [364], which was removed by Tentontunic, states that " this term ("Communist terrorism" PS) has been applied by the US administration to the actions of Communist partisans during Vietnam war to affect both the domestic and South Vietnamese public opinion and to justify the actions of the US army as "counterterrorist" measures.", and this text, which was added by him, [365] presents Vietnamese "Communist terrorism" as a broadly accepted term without any reference to its origin from the US war propaganda. This is definitely a revert, and this revert is not supported by the users, and importantly by what the sources say (see, for instance, a discussion there [366]). However, the most important thing here is that Tentontunic believes that he can revert any edit without providing serious evidences for that. That is not what the policy states, because the neutral text, which is supported by reliable sources and contains no synthesis cannot be removed simply because some users believe it is a propaganda.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:41, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

@ Sandstein. The 1RR restriction has been applied per the discretionary sanctions authorized in the Digwuren case. Therefore, if these sanction are in effect, then the article does have a connection with the EE topic (where the term "Eastern Europe" is defined broadly). However, if the topic has just a tangential relation to the EE issue (the point I fully agree with, unless the definition of "Eastern Europe" includes the whole Earth), then 1RR restrictions should be removed, because the Digwuren case is applicable to the EE issues only.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:14, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Volunteer Marek[edit]

This report is just another piece of evidence for the fact that WP:AE is just another weapon in the battleground toolbox, nothing more. It is the battleground, it creates battlegrounds, it makes existing battlegrounds worse, not better. You make blocks and sanctions cheap, demand for blocks and sanctions goes up. And so you get endless frivolous reports which just waste everyone's time, and embitter editors against each other.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:42, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Marek, unfortunately, although the report is premature, it hardly is "frivolous". The editor refused to discuss the proposed text, removed it under a pretext that it is "propaganda" (without providing any evidences that the text written based on western scholarly articles and containing no synthesis can be a piece propaganda), and introduced his own text without any attempt to discuss it on the talk page. All these steps could be simply reverted per normal rules, however, since the article is under 1RR, this step may lead to sanctions against a user who will do that. Therefore, we simply have no choice other than to go to this page.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:53, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Sandstein: Recommending closure with a warning to Tentontunic not to make invalid AE requests. - ummm, Tentontunic is not the one who made this invalid AE request. TFD did. And he might have already been warned before about making invalid AE requests (I can't remember whether this was "official warning" or just people telling him to chill out with these - I'd have to go back and look through the archives).Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:53, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out that I miscopied the username; that has been corrected.  Sandstein  22:01, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Martintg[edit]

We all seem to agree this report is premature. Looking at the diffs presented by TFD there are no reverts. The only revert I see in the edit history is the one by TFD[367]. I have to agree with the others that this report appears to be an attempt by TFD to wikilawyer a sanction via AE to get the upper hand in a content discussion, this kind of WP:BATTLEGROUND antics is just as disruptive as any real edit warring. Therefore I think WP:BOOMERANG should apply. --Martin (talk) 00:16, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning Tentontunic[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
  • Can someone explain (1) why is each of the 4 diffs supplied a revert and (2) how the revert is related to Eastern Europe? T. Canens (talk) 10:15, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    • Assuming arguendo that the entire article is under a validly imposed 1RR, I'm not seeing a 1RR violation here based on those diffs. 1RR is one revert per day, not one edit per day. T. Canens (talk) 00:06, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
  • The request is not very helpful because it does not show what the diffs are supposed to be reverts of. I can't see a 1RR violation at first glance. Nothing of what Tentontunic The Four Deuces writes makes this issue more clear. And like Timotheus Canens I am not sure how the article is in the EE topic area anyway. Recommending closure with a warning to Tentontunic The Four Deuces not to make invalid AE requests.  Sandstein  20:50, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

ZjarriRrethues[edit]

Athenean and ZjarriRrethues subject to an interaction ban and cautioned. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:12, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning ZjarriRrethues[edit]

User requesting enforcement 
Athenean (talk) 02:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested 
ZjarriRrethues (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction or remedy that this user violated 
Wikipedia:ARBMAC#Final_decision#Decorum

Wikipedia:ARBMAC#Final_decision#Purpose_of_Wikipedia

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 

ZjarriRrethues is an editor that frequently edits Greece-related topics in a persistently tendentious, incivil manner, misusing sources and engaging in other forms of intellectual dishonesty, lately exhibiting strong signs of WP:POINT and WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and engaging in personal vendettas. Specifically:

Collapsed for readability
Deliberate, extensive, systematic manipulation of sources

ZjarriRrethues has become an expert at gaming Wikipedia's sourcing requirement to push his POV. He does so by using a variety of means, such as quoting snippets from Google Books out of context ("snippet abuse"), distorting the wording so as to completely change the meaning, selectively quoting from his own sources, and so forth.

  • A crystal-clear, recent example can be seen here [368], when it turns out that in fact the exact opposite is true [369] [370]. Incidentally, ZjarriRrethues frequently rails that M. Sakellariou is an unreliable Greek nationalist source [371] [372], however, when it suits his purpose, as here, he has no problem using him.
  • Though this is the most recent instance of source fraud, it is part of a persistent, long-established pattern. Another excellent example is here [373], when again the exact opposite is true [374].
  • Quite brazen is also this instance here [378], as illustrated here [379]. The claim that the prefecture was predominantly Albanian and Bulgarian is nowhere to be found in the source.
  • Falsely adding "According to Greek media", when in fact one of the main sources used in the article is The Balkan Chronicle [380], which is not Greek [381]. Piqued that he can't have his way, he then starts tagging the article in revenge [382] [383] (where he sees "peacockery" is beyond me).
  • Another crystal-clear example is here [384], when he adds that only the town of Himara is predominantly ethnic Greek, even though the source used clearly says that the entire district of Himara is such. When I point this out in the talkpage [385], he changes tack, attacking the source [386] though it meets WP:V.
  • Another manifestation of egregious intellectual dishonesty is removal of sources he doesn't like on the flimsiest of grounds, for example here [387], even though if the Greek tribes lived south of the Zeta valley in Montenegro, that would automatically imply they lived in Albania as well. On the other hand, he doesn't mind mentioning Montenegro in the same article when it suits him [388].
  • Again, this isn't an isolated incident, but part of a long established pattern, e.g. here [389] (removing the source on the grounds that it is "offline", and again here [390], where he removes a perfectly reliable, peer reviewed academic publication on the spurious grounds that it is "fringe, POV, and biased" (after having first removed that the region of Himara is predominantly Greek [391], which is what the source supports - under the bogus edit-summary of "precise").
  • Yet more tendentious editing and spurious source removal can be seen here [392] (removing "bilingual" without explanation, even though many sources in the article attest to that). I think the point is clear by now. Months later he comes back again [393], apparently unable to let it rest (and again note the misleading edit summary, as he removed "bilingual" but makes no mention of that in the edit summary).
  • Quoting from sources in a highly selective manner is another favorite tactic, clearly shown in this new article he recently created [394], where for instance he makes sure to omit that source #1 includes the organization among organizations that are "ethno-nationalist" in nature, and also makes sure to omit information such as "However, the combination of the recent change in approach towards minority issues, together with High Court's reversing of a previous restriction on the operation of the the Turkish Union of Xanthi has served to alleviate the tension in this area" [395], which is critical in influencing the reader's perception. The article in general is highly POV, something which I will return to in this report.
  • Again, such behavior is nothing new, as can be seen here [396], where he makes sure to "omit" the rest of the relevant info from the source [397].
  • Other examples of tendentious editing can be seen here [398] (highly POV re-write of the lede), here [399] (without so much as an edit-summary),[400] (removing the word "Greek" from an ancient Greek city in Albania that was the political center of one the local ancient Greek tribes, the Chaonians, even though the sources clearly describe it as such), [401] (describing an extremist nationalist organization (even by the standards of the region) as "liberal nationalist" under the misleading edit summary of "precise" - by now, whenever I see an edit by Zjarri-Rrethues with the summary of "precise", I assume something's up), and it goes on [402] (speaks for itself), and on [403] (the source says exactly that [404]).
Incivility, threats, assumptions of bad faith, contempt for others
  • Incivility and assumptions of bad faith [405] [406] [407] [408] [409] ("...as always...", "...like always..." note that "or deductions" and "oring" is Zjarri's self-made jargon for WP:OR). Here he is taking it upon himself to remove another user's comments on the spurious grounds of WP:RANT [410], when in fact this is not the case. Here he is calling another editor a meatpuppet without any evidence or basis whatsoever [411].
  • In discussions involving content disputes, ZjarriRrethues routinely threatens other users with "I will seek admin intervention", "I will go to ANI", etc.. [412] [413] [414] [415] [416] [417], in a clear attempt to intimidate other users. This has a chilling effect on discussions, and goes against the very heart of the principle of decorum.
  • When backed into an intellectual corner, he immediately starts accusations of personal attacks [418] [419] [420] ("npa comments" in his own self-made jargon for WP:NPA), again in an attempt to intimidate.

The above diffs are bad enough. But what made me file this report was a recent incident, where after being unable to have his way on Ioannina Vilayet, ZjarriRrethues explicitly expressed an intention to retaliate by pushing a pro-Turkish POV on various articles [427] (that's what the gist of the "too few Turkish editors" part). This shows a clearly vindictive and spiteful intent, and above all WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. True to his word, he creates the following highly unbalanced, POV article [428] (for the reasons mentioned above, i.e. quoting from his sources in a highly selective manner). That the article is highly POV and unbalanced is plainly obvious (a litany of negativity), and is clearly solely intended to portray Greece in as negative a light as possible as a way of spiting Greek users. In 6k+ edits, he has hitherto never shown the slightest interest in the Turks of Western Thrace, and now this, after his stated declaration to push a pro-Turkish POV. He has also concurrently engaged in other highly POINTy behavior, where, after I objected fact that practically every single sentence in Ioannina Vilayet begins with "According to..." [429], he threatens to "retaliate" on Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) [430] [431] [432], just to make a point. True to form, he does just that [433]. This is pure WP:POINT: He has never shown the slightest interest in that article up until now, he is merely using the article to make the point that since Justin McCarthy is used as a source in Ioannina Vilayet without the qualifier "According to", then I shouldn't object to him being used with the qualifier in the Greco-Turkish War article. Inane, petty, and POINTy.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

User has been warned [434] of ARBMAC sanctions in the past, and sanctioned as well [435].

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction
Topic ban from anything to do with Greece, Greeks, Greek editors, etc...
Additional comments by editor filing complaint 
ZjarriRrethues is the classic example of a national POV advocate who has found ways of gaming the wikipedia environment so as to largely avoid sanction. Yet, while in perhaps isolation most of the above diffs may not be deserving of a topic ban, the overall picture is one of a user who has engaged in persistent, systematic disruption and abuse of the system. His incivility and contempt for other makes it impossible to collaborate with him. There are many users I have had disagreements with, but none so implacably hostile and impossible to work with as ZjarriRrethues. His persistent gaming of the sourcing requirement is particularly insidious, as it is difficult to detect and even more difficult to point out. But the recent POINTy, vindictive behavior goes beyond any past disruption and raises the disruption to the next level. I have lived with ZjarriRrethues' POV-pushing for over a year now, and I have never before taken him to AE, partly because I understand that we are all human and have our national backgrounds and POVs. To push one's national POV is bad enough. But to want to retaliate against users of a certain nationality by explicitly stating an intention to push a particular POV that he knows would annoy them is the epitome of a spiteful, vindictive, disposition and is a sanctionable instance of WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and breach of decorum. This user has shown some capability of being productive in topics that have no relation to Greece or Greeks, but I am convinced that, for whatever reason, he has an axe to grind with that particular country.
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested 
[436]
Reply to ZjarriRrethues
  • The allegation that I have been "making constant reports" regarding ZjarriRrethues is both severe and false. Constant reports? Hardly.
  • With the exception of Lamiskos, Sagudates and Belegezites all the other Greece related articles are about Arvanites, Albanian villages, Albanian commissioned churches, so on. This user is very keen on "proving" that this or that place in Greece, or some individual was in fact Albanian. As for the Sagudates and Belegezites, I suspect the interest there stems from the Fallmerayer-ian POV he has expressed [437].
  • The only formal action I have taken regarding ZjarriRrethues are two SPIs long ago, the claims that I reported him "some other times to admins" and that all the reports contain the phrase "spiting Greek users" are again false. I should note that it was for making false statements at WP:AE that ZjarriRrethues was sanctioned with an interaction ban against me [438]. This is the first time I report him to AE, while he already filed 3 non-actionable AE reports on me since September (filed the same report twice after it was ignored the first time).
  • Regarding Hellenic Nomarchy, there remains the question that since according to you Sakellariou is such an unreliable nationalist source, why use him at all? Is it because in this particular instance he appeared to portray Ali Pasha in a positive light?
  • Regarding Kastoria Prefecture, this [439] claim is nowhere to be found in the source, which in fact says this [440], which was corroborated by another user [441] (and I think it's about the city rather than the prefecture anyway). This is the problem with using snippets.
  • Regarding the antiquity of the Albanian ethnic identity, why did you essentially negate my change here [442] to this [443], which implies that the references to "Arbon" and "Albanoi" in Polybius (2nd century BC) and Ptolemy (2nd century AD) refer to Albanians rather than peoples of uncertain ethnic identity, which is the case?
  • As far as Phoenice goes, the explanation for this [444] is completely inadequate. You didn't add "Roman", you just removed "Greek", when in fact the town was founded by Greeks (the Chaonians), who are moreover the earliest recorded inhabitants of the place. Not only that, but Phoenice never ceased to be inhabited by them, nor is there any evidence of substantial Roman or Illyrian settlement in the town. Even to this day, the nearby settlement of Finiq is ethnic Greek. If we follow your logic that "Greek" should be removed because it was conquered by Rome, then we should apply the same to every single ancient Greek city out there. Furthermore, this [445] is also completely false. The Illyrians never stayed there for even a year.
  • The Byzantine Empire was predominantly Greek-speaking, and that is blindingly obvious. In fact the entire Eastern Mediterranean basin was part of the Koine-speaking world since even before the Roman conquest, while Greek became official sometime in the 7 century, i.e. for most of the Empire's history. The Empire was even referred to by its contemporaries as the "Empire of the Greeks".
  • Regarding Kanun, the addition which you removed on the grounds that it was OR [446] clearly says that it entered Albanian via Ottoman Turkish, not that entered Albanian via Arabic. I don't see how much clearer that could be.
  • As for the Turkish Union of Xanthi, why did you leave out important bits from source #1 that could influence the reader's perception [447]? Where does this sudden interest in the Turks of Western Thrace come from? Athenean (talk) 17:29, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
  • What do you mean Byllis is only "once attested as a polis"? If it's attested once, it's attested, period. Doesn't matter if it's attested once, twice, or thrice. Moreover, it is listed in the Inventory of archaic and classical poleis here [448].
  • From Byzantine Empire, the article never said that it was "Greek", but "Greek-speaking", which even the source you have provided here supports [449].
Reply to Sandstein

You are correct that the tone I have used in this report may be overly confrontational. I regret that but I cannot undo it, however I will adopt a less confrontational tone henceforth.

  • Hellenic Nomarchy: I don't think this [450] meets WP:CONCEDE. He's not really admitting fault. There is also the question of why use Sakellariou in the first place, since the user has gone on the record that he considers him a Greek nationalist and hence unreliable.
  • Battle of Bizani: The point here is in Cplakidas' edit summary [451], not so much the edit itself. It is my impression that ZjarriRrethues was less interested in actually improving the article, than in finding an opportunity to make the point that Ioannina was predominantly Albanian. Yet, as Cplakidas makes clear, if he had actually read the entire source, he would have realized that the opposite is true. Also note that an interest in Albanian demographics is a recurring thread throughout the evidence of this report.
  • National Republican Greek League: The problem here is that while perhaps individual sources aren't grossly misrepresented (though they are stretched as you say), they do not support the rather serious claim of "Collaboration" with the Nazis, which was the title of the section. Going by the sources, the claim of collaboration simply does not add up. If the material from the sources had been added in the main text without being part of a "Collaboration" section it might have been acceptable, but to create a "Collaboration" section on the basis of these sources is not.
  • Himara: When I alleged falsification because of this [452] (his removal of region), the very first source of the article [453] clearly says that the district of Himara is predominantly Greek. True, at the location where he removed "region", both sources only mention the town, but since he went over the sources so meticulously, I find it hard to believe that he would have missed the fact that the very first source used in the article says "the district".
  • Regarding the what I allege to examples of tendentious editing, I mean just that, not that they are misrepresentation of sources. In Apollonia (Illyria), he removed one of the alternate names because it was Greek, removed that it was a Greek city [454], stated that it was a settlement of the Taulantii without a source, changed it "was a city in modern Albania" which just sounds odd and so forth. He is basically trying to portray the city as "Illyrian" as possible and minimize it's "Greekness" as much as possible. He does so without any sourcing. Regarding Byllis, again, I do not allege source falsification here, but this edit is tendentious [455]: He removes sourced [456] information without so much as an edit summary, while here he removes that Phoenice was a Greek city [457] without adequate justification: The town was founded by Greeks (the Chaonians), who are moreover the earliest recorded inhabitants of the place. Not only that, but Phoenice never ceased to be inhabited by them, nor is there any evidence of substantial Roman or Illyrian settlement in the town. Even to this day, the nearby settlement of Finiq is ethnic Greek. If we follow his logic that "Greek" should be removed because it was conquered by Rome, then we should apply the same to every single ancient Greek city out there. There is clearly a pattern whereby he tries to remove the word "Greek" from the description of ancient cities in Albania. This description [458] of a nationalist organization as "liberal nationalist couldn't be further from the truth [459], and he also used a misleading edit summary ("precise") while tagging it as minor. Removing something as well-known that the Byzantine Empire was Greek-speaking is tedious, as that is one of the salient, and well-known features of said Empire.
  • Regarding the Kanun, I am not so much alleging source falsification, as a dishonest removal using a misleading edit summary. There is absolutely no WP:OR in this instance. ZjarriRrethues is moreover quite fluent in English, I do not buy that he misunderstood the source. The source says in turn via Arabic, i.e. it entered Turkish via Arabic, not that it also entered via Arabic (which makes no sense - how can a word enter via two different languages?)
  • As far as the statements of intending to go to AN/I and seeking admin intervention, he in fact not once went through with it. This leads me to believe that he never actually intendended to do so, but was merely using it as a rhetorical device because he knew it would intimidate other users (how could it not?).
  • Regarding Kastoria prefecture, I had included the wrong diff, which I have now fixed. I think the misuse of the source is quite clear.
Clarification

I am getting the impression that Sandstein thinks that everything I allege falls under "misrepresntation of sources". However, that is not true. Some does, but some falls under simple tendentious editing, e.g. his removal from Kanun under a false edit summary of WP:OR.

Reply to Future Perfect at Sunrise

You are correct when you say that there is a complete breakdown of trust between the various parties. I'm not sure I agree with your 60/40 assessment or for the need for bans all around. Then there is also the question of this [460], which as far as I'm concerned marks an unprecedented low by ZjarriRrethues, and is the core of this report.

Discussion concerning ZjarriRrethues[edit]

Statement by ZjarriRrethues[edit]

  • I don't see any violation of any policy by any of my edits. I have written many good articles, some of which are related to WikiProject Greece and they were featured on DYK. I've written DYK content that is related to WikiProject Greece, while the user who reported me has been following my edits since the time I signed up to wikipedia and making constant reports regarding me.
  • My contributions to Greece-related articles include:
  1. Lamiskos
  2. Song of Marko Boçari
  3. Battle of_Achelous (1359)
  4. Church of St_Athanasius of Mouzaki
  5. Leontari, Thebes
  6. Kastri, Thesprotia
  7. Belegezites
  8. Sagudates
  9. Tasos Neroutsos
  10. Vangelis Liapis
  11. Gregory IV of Athens
  12. Turkish Union of Xanthi


  • I received an interaction ban in the past because I reported Athenean i.e my ban wasn't edit-related. Athenean has reported me twice to SPI, some other times to admins and now to AE. All the reports contain phrases like the spiting Greek users one and many attributions of nationalist motives to me. If I was a nationalist I wouldn't refute sources that say that Albanians became emperors of the Byzantine Empire in the 4-5th century AD[461](i.e prove the existence of a concrete Albanian ethnic identity), while they were first attested in the 11th century AD in historical records. What kind of nationalist wouldn't want to prove that his nation is half a millenium older?


  • Athenean says that my article Turkish Union of Xanthi is highly POV(although it did pass the DYK review [462] by a much more experienced user with 31k edits), so the verdict on the article's pov is on that and if someone wants to add that it's a nationalist or any other kind of organization he should add it. Btw Athenean saying that the article is solely intended to portray Greece in as negative a light as possible as a way of spiting Greek users is excessively inappropriate. I wrote the Turkish Union of Xanthi and I also wrote Lamiskos. Does the Lamiskos article also show that grossly negative intention that is being attributed to me constantly by Athenean?


  • Regarding the Hellenic Nomarchy issue I made a mistake that I couldn't predict because the google search result doesn't show the whole quote [463]. Of course after it was proven that I was mistaken I accepted it[464]. I only quoted Sakellariou in order to not quote a WP:PRIMARY and yes I have many times said that he is a nationalist source because that is how other scholars label his works [465]
  • Regarding the Battle of Bizani, which Athenean labels as an excellent example of source fraud: This is the quote from the source [466] and this is my edit [467], which is a precise quote from the work, so the verdict is on the comparison. Regarding the National Republican League a Greek user claimed that one of the sources shouldn't be used because it was connected with the Communist resistance groups and I accepted it[468], however the part that isn't related to that(collaboration of Athens branch) is undisputed and other Greek users accepted it [469].
  • Regarding Kastoria: This is entirely WP:IDONTLIKEIT because the edits I made [470] use as sources also Greek authors and there's no misuse [471]. Athenean says that the source says nothing about the prefecture[472], but my edit also doesn't say anything about the prefecture[473] i.e I didn't make deductions about it.
  • Regarding the Death of Aristotelis Goumas isn't WP:PEACOCK when Athenean the creator of the articles wrote sentences like The death sent shockwaves through the ethnic Greek community of Albania of course I added such tags. In Himarë one of the sources that I removed as offline then was indeed offline since you had to buy the book to verify it and it didn't even have snippet view option, while the source that among others says [474] that there were Albanian emperors of the Byzantine Empire in the 4-5th century AD is unreliable and fringe since Albanians were attested for the first time many centuries later. If I was an Albanian nationalism pov-pushing user, why would I support its unreliability instead of using it to prove the existence of an Albanian identity many centuries before the current wikipedia version?
  • Regarding the Zeta valley issue deductions like that implies automatically... are WP:OR i.e Athenean should find a source that says ancient Greek tribes lived in northern Albania along the Shkoder lake opposite to the Zeta valley, instead of assuming that it is automatically implied...
  • Phoenice was for some centuries an important city of the Chaonians, but in the 3rd century AD it was conquered by Rome and it became a Roman city and remained such until the end of its existence in the 6th century AD. Would you label as an ancient Greek city a settlement that belonged to such tribes from the 5th to 3rd century and for the next 700-800 years it belonged to the Roman and after the 4th century AD to the Eastern Roman Empire?
  • Regarding the Byzantine Empire: Was the Byzantine Empire a predominantly Greek-speaking empire(similar to saying Was the Roman Empire a predominantly Latin-speaking Empire?)? It wasn't a predominantly Greek-speaking Empire, because although coine Greek became official at some point the native language of the majority of its citizens wasn't coine Greek. Btw that didn't even have a source, so of course it was WP:OR.
  • Regarding Kanun it's a word that entered Albanian dictionary via Ottoman Turkish, which acquired from Arabic i.e not via Arabic but via Turkish.
  • Regarding my comments about Turkey-related articles [475] Athenean says that I expressed an intention for Turkish pov-pushing, which I didn't express.
  • When some users WP:IDHT any kind of argument, it's obvious that you have to start RfCs, ask admin intervention, go to relevant boards i.e that's not attempt to intimidate other users as Athenean says.
Replies
  • Regarding Death of Aristotelis Goumas: the NEA newspaper is a Greek one as well as in.gr and that's why I changed eyewitnesses to Greek media.
  • Regarding Kastoria Prefecture: This is the quote I was using and I also added on the talkpage[476] , but when I added it [477] I didn't add the full link quote and because many users were editing/reverting each other at the same time eventually Dianna reverted a revert that wasn't even mine.[478].
  • Kanun: The text I reverted says 'and in turn via Arabic, which isn't even correct. In Albanian it entered via Turkish not also via Arabic.
  • Regarding Apollonia:[479] My edit(about the Illyrian settlement) is sourced by Wilkes, while some of the rest are parts of other sections of the articles and I just added a brief summary of them on the lead. I also removed the Greek city because it became a city of the Ardiean Kingdom and then the Romans captured it from them, while the two names kat'Epidamno and pros Epidamno aren't an actual name but just a description(pros Epidamno means near Epidamnos). Athenean claims that I stated that it was a settlement of the Taulantii without a source, but I added Wilkes as a source [480].
  • Regarding Byllis: I removed the polis attribution, because as I added below it is only once attested as polis[481](only once it was described as a polis by Stephen of Byzantium in the 6th century AD, which by that time had the meaning of an early medieval township or commune/an actual ancient polis, but it's not labeled by none of the contemporary or later scholars as a polis, whatever Stephanus meant i.e the lead shouldn't say was an ancient polis located in Illyria) since it's only once labeled as such by someone who lived many centuries after the era, in which a settlement could be a polis) and I also removed the Pyrrhus as a founder theory, because it was actually conquered by him and I added the source. The city being the settlement of the Bylliones was already a part of the article.


  • Regarding the Byzantine Empire: Greek language at some point became its official language and lingua france but the empire was a multiethnic empire and in no way the majority of its people were Greek-speaking(i.e people whose mother tongue was Greek)[482][483]

Regarding Yanya Vilayet: I explained that because there were no official statistics about ethnicity in the Ottoman empire, all views should be attributed to the scholars, which was also accepted in a ECCN discussion I started[484] . However, Greek users were trying to not attribute to each scholar his own view, but add it as a fact. I also started a RfC, in which the only person who replied agreed with the Ottoman censi issues and the Greek views[485]. Athenean had also agreed about the Ottoman censi, but later changed his comment [486] and supported the non-inclusion of the fact that Sakellariou's work is a Greek view(he has been labeled as a standard nationalist on various subjects[487])

  • I agree with many parts of FutureP's comment and I appreciate his honesty. I may have a solution regardinghow to stop this circus. Sandstein's assessment has shown that although there were a few ambiguous cases and even less, in which I did misrepresent sources, many of the ones so far assessed don't represent intellectual dishonesty or misuse of sources. Many times during these disputes I have to repeat myself and always find my arguments get WP:IDHT as a response. For example in the Zeta plain dispute I explained many times to the user, who added it that it's not backed up by the source and yet the misrepresantion of sources continued with reverts and more source misuse[488], while Athenean included my edit in this report and labeled it as an example of a manifestation of egregious intellectual dishonesty, which was retracted only after Sandstein's and FutureP's assessments. Usually during these disputes I have to start a RfC, in which most people don't reply because the same users that were part of the dispute, continue the discussion on the RfC section and it soon becomes too long. Other times I go directly to FutureP's talkpage and ask for his opinion, which isn't given in many disputes, however, in the very few disputes that he actually decides to intervene all cases are almost immediately resolved. Which brings me to my proposal. If in any of these disputes there was a quick assessment of the situation by someone like FutureP or Sandstein, there wouldn't be any long-drawn and trivial discussions or misrepresentation of sources and eventually no edits like the one regarding the Zeta valley would be reported to AE.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:58, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning ZjarriRrethues[edit]

Evaluation of the evidence by Sandstein[edit]

This request makes very severe allegations in a very confrontative tone, so looking at the conduct of both users appears necessary. If the evidence holds up, sanctions against ZjarriRrethues appear unavoidable, but if much of it does not, the same applies to Athenean for making this kind of request. I'll use the space below to examine some of the claims made in the request.

Athenean claims:
"ZjarriRrethues has become an expert at gaming Wikipedia's sourcing requirement to push his POV. He does so by using a variety of means, such as quoting snippets from Google Books out of context ("snippet abuse"), distorting the wording so as to completely change the meaning, selectively quoting from his own sources, and so forth. A crystal-clear, recent example can be seen here [489], when it turns out that in fact the exact opposite is true [490] [491]."
ZjarriRrethues later admitted ([492], [493]) that his citation was incorrect.
My assessment: ☒N/☑Y This item of evidence proves an improper use of sources by ZjarriRrethues, but not necessarily out of bad faith rather than mere carelessness. After all, ZjarriRrethues was quick to admit his mistake, which Athenean does not mention.  Sandstein  10:42, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Athenean claims:
"Though this is the most recent instance of source fraud, it is part of a persistent, long-established pattern. Another excellent example is here [494], when again the exact opposite is true [495]."
ZjarriRrethues wrote:
"The surrender of Ioannina, a predominantly Albanian town by the Ottoman empire to the Kingdom of Greece is regarded as more of a loss for Albanians because it would have secured the southern end of the Albanian state in the same that Shkodër secured its northern border.[ref: Hall (2000), pp. 95]"
The edit that Athenean claims is true was made by Cplakidas, and reads:
"The surrender of Ioannina secured Greek control of southern Epirus and the Ionian coast, whilst denying it to the newly-formed Albanian state.[ref: Hall (2000), pp. 95]"
The cited source, Hall p. 95, reads: (Link can be found via Google, but probably not copyright-kosher, so not linked here)
"The Greeks took Janina at relatively little cost to themselves. They demonstrated that they did possess a competent military, capable of functioning in difficult conditions. They also acquired a location that guaranteed them control of an Ionian hinterland stretching from the Gulf of Arta to Corfu. The real losers here were not the Ottomans, but the Albanians. Janina, a predominantly Albanian town, could have secured the southern end of the new state in the same way that Scutari would anchor the north."
My assessment: ☒N No misrepresentation of sources by ZjarriRrethues. What ZjarriRrethues wrote matches the cited source. In contrast, what Cplakidas wrote (and Athenean claims is true) does not, as "southern Epirus and the Ionian coast" are not mentioned on p. 95 by Hall.  Sandstein  10:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
I wouldn't say that Cplakidas/Athenean's version would have been wrong. "[S]outhern Epirus and the Ionian coast" is a reasonable paraphrase of "an Ionian hinterland stretching from the Gulf of Arta to Corfu". But I also can't see much wrong with Zjarri's version. Both versions simply emphasise different aspects of the sourced passage. I agree with you about your analysis of the "Hellenic Nomarchy" incident. Fut.Perf. 11:00, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Athenean alleges that ZjarriRrethues misused sources "Also here [496] [497], as pointed out here [498]."
ZjarriRrethues wrote:
In various towns and villages EDES members were aiding members collaborationist organizations.[NGL 1] During the operations of the German army in the area of Mount Helicon EDES members acted as guides on mountain paths.[NGL 1] Along with the British government the German authorities in Greece provided covert assistance to EDES, which increased the quality of the armament of the group.[NGL 2] Since autumn 1943 EDES and the 12th Army of Nazi Germany had important connections, which led to an armistice and a collaboration pact against the other major resistance group of Greece, the Greek People's Liberation Army in February 1944.[NGL 3] In 1948 The Century Foundation reported that accusations regarding collaboration of EDES with German and quisling authorities had damaged its reputation.[NGL 4] After World War II, Zervas the leader of EDES participated in Dimitrios Maximos' cabinet as Minister without Portfolio from 24 January to 23 February 1947, and afterwards as Minister for Public Order until 29 August 1947.[NGL 5] The United States of America and the United Kingdom opposed his appointment suspecting him of collaboration with Nazi Germany during WWII and dictatorial ambitions.[NGL 6]
  1. ^ a b Saraphes, Stephanos G. (1980). ELAS: Greek resistance army. Merlin. p. 194. Retrieved 16 October 2010.
  2. ^ Thomas, Nigel; Abbott, Peter (1983). Partisan warfare 1941-45. Osprey Publishing. p. 26. ISBN 9780850455137. Retrieved 16 October 2010.
  3. ^ Kretsi, Georgia (2002). Ethnologia Balkanica. Ethnologia Balkanica. 6. Berlin: LIT Verlag Münster. p. 182.
  4. ^ Smothers, Frank Albert (1948). Report on the Greeks: findings of a Twentieth Century Fund team which surveyed conditions in Greece in 1947. Twentieth Century Funds. p. 31. Retrieved 16 October 2010.
  5. ^ "ΚΥΒΕΡΝΗΣΙΣ ΔΗΜΗΤΡΙΟΥ ΜΑΞΙΜΟΥ - Από 24.1.1947 έως 29.8.1947" (in Greek). General Secretariat of the Government. Retrieved 2010-07-13.
  6. ^ Iatrides, John; Wrigley, Linda (1995). Greece at the crossroads: the Civil War and its legacy. Penn State Press. p. 137. ISBN 0271014113.
My assessment: Looking at the sources claimed to be misused, I find:
  • NGL 1: ☒N/☑Y ZjarriRrethues cites this snippet, but this seems to be a Google-related error, because this snippet reads "... organizations, and in the mopping-up operations on Helicon, EDES men even acted as guides to the Germans on the mountain paths", and so supports at least the second part of what ZjarriRrethues wrote. On this basis I cannot find that there has been misrepresentation of sources. What is problematic, though, is that ZjarriRrethues does not make clear that the author, Stefanos Sarafis, was a leading officer in ELAS, the enemies of EDES at the time, which draws his reliability into doubt. On the other hand, ZjarriRrethues later admitted as much.
  • NGL 2: ☒N ZjarriRrethues writes:
"Along with the British government the German authorities in Greece provided covert assistance to EDES, which increased the quality of the armament of the group."
The cited source reads:
"... but because it [EDES] received rather more British aid (and also some covert German assistance) it was better armed and more conventional in structure."
This basically supports ZjarriRrethues's text, even though the paraphrasing omits the "some" qualifier. I do not find misrepresentation of sources here.
  • NGL 3: ☒N ZjarriRrethues writes:
"Since autumn 1943 EDES and the 12th Army of Nazi Germany had important connections, which led to an armistice and a collaboration pact against the other major resistance group of Greece, the Greek People's Liberation Army in February 1944."
The cited source, Kretsi at p. 182, footnote 42, reads:
"Since autumn 1943, there was an important connection between EDES units in north-west Greece and the 12th mountain army corps and in early February 1944 led to an armistice and a pact of mutual assistance against ELAS".
ZjarriRrethues's text fairly represents the cited source. It is a bit a stretch to render "a pact of mutual assistance" as "collaboration pact", but the basic meaning seems to be the same. I find no misrepresentation of sources here.
  • NGL 4: ☒N ZjarriRrethues cites this snippet, but it appears that he meant to cite this one, which shows the relevant text. He writes:
"In 1948 The Century Foundation reported that accusations regarding collaboration of EDES with German and quisling authorities had damaged its reputation."
The snippet reads:
"Accusations of collaboration with the enemy and with the quisling Security Battallions (in action against the major resistance movement and in collusion with the collaborationists of Athens) had damaged the reputation of EDES."
ZjarriRrethues's text matches that of the source; there is no misrepresentation. "In 1948 The Century Foundation reported ..." simply means that the Foundation reported that such accusations were made; it does not mean, as per the allegation in which Athenean joins, that the Foundation made these accusations themselves.
  • ☒N The allegation in which Athenean joins also addresses something concerning one "Gonatas" in a book by one McNeill, but a reference to either is not found in the text by ZjarriRrethues, reproduced above, cited as evidence by Athenean. This means I can't find a problem here either.  Sandstein  11:47, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Athenean claims:
"Falsely adding "According to Greek media", when in fact one of the main sources used in the article is The Balkan Chronicle [499], which is not Greek [500].
At [501], ZjarriRrethues removed a reference to "eyewitnesses" and replaced that word by "Greek media", writing:
"According to eyewitnesses Greek media the death occurred after an altercation in Goumas' store," and "... demanded that he not speak to them in Greek according to eyewitnesses Greek media.[ref]"
My assessment: ☑Y The source cited here, (translation) does not say anything about "Greek media", but it does say "eyewitnesses". I find that by making this edit ZjarriRrethues did misrepresent the cited source.
Athenean claims further:
"Piqued that he [ZjarriRrethues] can't have his way, he then starts tagging the article in revenge [502] [503] (where he sees "peacockery" is beyond me)."
The explanation given by ZjarriRrethues for this is unpersuasive. He writes:
"isn't WP:PEACOCK when Athenean the creator of the articles wrote sentences like The death sent shockwaves through the ethnic Greek community of Albania of course I added such tags."
But WP:PEACOCK refers to "peacock terms" as promotional terms such as "legendary, great, eminent, visionary, outstanding...". Nothing like that can be found in the article. It is therefore incomprehensible, and I find it disruptive, that ZjarriRrethues tagged the article as "peacock", "overcoverage" and "inappropriate tone" without any explanation.
I find it likewise disruptive, though, that Athenean uses emotional terms such as "piqued" and "revenge" to characterize these mistaggings, without providing any evidence for these characterizations.  Sandstein  12:31, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Not sure I agree about the "eyewitness"/"Greek media" thing. Of course, the "Ta Nea" source says "eyewitnesses", but that source and the next one are in fact "Greek media" (the only non-Greek one, to which Athenean refers, is "Balkan Chronicle", whose status as a RS may be in doubt; I can see no indication that they have the potential for much independent journalistic research.) Whether and in what cases it is legitimate to hedge the validity of a source by a qualifier such as noting its nationality is a difficult editorial issue, but doing so is not "falsifying" the source. Fut.Perf. 12:50, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Athenean claims:
"Another crystal-clear example is here [504], when he adds that only the town of Himara is predominantly ethnic Greek, even though the source used clearly says that the entire district of Himara is such. When I point this out in the talkpage [505], he changes tack, attacking the source [506] though it meets WP:V."
In the following text, ZjarriRrethues added the underlined words "The town of":
"The town of Himara is predominantly populated by an ethnic Greek [Reference: Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations: Ethnic and National Groups Around the World Volume II D-K by James Minahan,2002,ISBN 0313321108,page 581: "Greek-speaking populations outside the three districts of Sarande, Gjirokaster, and Permet are not officially considered as part of the Epirote community. In 1995 the district of Himare, called Chimarra by the Epirotes , whose classification as a Greek-speaking district had been revoked in 1945 for failure to support the establishment of communism in Albanian voted to reclaim its status as an Epirote-majority district. The post communist Albanian government has been accused of restricting the Greek-speaking population to just 60,000 by withholding documents identifying Himare as part of the Epirote minority."] community.
My assessment: ☑Y This change is not supported by the source given in the same sentence, as the citation provided in the reference shows. ZjarriRrethues has therefore misrepresentated this source.  Sandstein  14:49, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Yes, apparently a mistake in not changing/updating the source. It seems the jury is still out on whether the edit was actually factually correct. I notice that in its present state the relevant section of the article [507] claims that "the ethnic composition of both the town and region [is] predominantly Greek", with two references that don't support the second part of the assertion either, so, somebody else must also have been falsifying sources in a similar way. Fut.Perf. 15:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Athenean claims:
"Another manifestation of egregious intellectual dishonesty is removal of sources he doesn't like on the flimsiest of grounds, for example here [508], even though if the Greek tribes lived south of the Zeta valley in Montenegro, that would automatically imply they lived in Albania as well. On the other hand, he doesn't mind mentioning Montenegro in the same article when it suits him [509]."
My assessment: ☒N This is a content dispute about who lived in which valley and does not establish source misrepresentation. As ZjarriRrethues notes in reply, the statement that "the Greek tribes lived south of the Zeta valley in Montenegro, that would automatically imply they lived in Albania as well" is original research unless backed by sources. It's also not clear why it would be dishonest to mention at [510] that certain finds in Albania are similar to certain other finds in Montenegro.  Sandstein  15:16, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
I'd go even further and say the source misrepresentation was in the other version, which Zjarri removed. The source quite clearly does not state Greek presence reached up to a place where they bordered on the tribes of the Zeta valley, but only that they may at some point during the Bronze age have bordered on those tribes which in classical times were near the Drin valley, but which may have been "southernmost outliers" of those near the Zeta. The Drin is a lot further south than the Zeta. The removal was clearly justified. Fut.Perf. 15:37, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Athenean claims:
"Again, this isn't an isolated incident, but part of a long established pattern, e.g. here [511] (removing the source on the grounds that it is "offline", and again here [512], where he removes a perfectly reliable, peer reviewed academic publication on the spurious grounds that it is "fringe, POV, and biased" (after having first removed that the region of Himara is predominantly Greek [513], which is what the source supports - under the bogus edit-summary of "precise")."
My assessment:
  • ☑Y It is indeed not clear why at [514] ZjarriRrethues removed the source [515] with the edit summary "the source is offline". The source is, in fact, a book, which is offline by nature, as represented at Google Books, which has been very much online for years. It is true that the cited page 187 is not shown in Google's preview, but that does not invalidate the reference to the book: at the most, the URL could have been removed, not the whole citation. Moreover, ZjarriRrethues tagged the edit as minor, which it is clearly not. This edit was disruptive.
  • ☒NWhether ZjarriRrethues was justified to dismiss a source as "fringe, pov, biased" is a content dispute that can't be adjudicated here. At any rate, the source looks like it is self-published, so there may well be policy-based grounds for its removal.
  • ☒N At [516] ZjarriRrethues removed the words "and region" from the text "The ethnic composition of both the town and region is predominantly Greek", which is sourced to p. 39 of the same