- 1 Wikifan12345
- 1.1 Request concerning Wikifan12345
- 1.2 Discussion concerning Wikifan12345
- 1.3 Result concerning Wikifan12345
- 2 Dighapet
- 3 NickCT
- 4 Smatprt
- 5 Frederico1234
- 5.1 Request concerning Frederico1234
- 5.2 Discussion concerning Frederico1234
- 5.3 Result concerning Frederico1234
- 6 Jonchapple
- 7 Arbitration enforcement action appeal by DIREKTOR
- 7.1 Statement by DIREKTOR
- 7.2 Statement by Fainites
- 7.3 Statement by Sunray
- 7.4 Statement by Nuujinn
- 7.5 Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by DIREKTOR
- 7.6 Result of the appeal by DIREKTOR
- 7.7 Question
- 8 RolandR
- 8.1 Request concerning RolandR
- 8.2 Discussion concerning RolandR
- 8.2.1 Statement by RolandR
- 8.2.2 Comments by others about the request concerning RolandR
- 8.2.3 Possible 1 rr violation
- 8.3 Result concerning RolandR
|Wikifan12345 (talk · contribs) is warned for the 1RR violation, but no further action is taken at the moment. T. Canens (talk) 01:52, 5 August 2011 (UTC)|
|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
Request concerning Wikifan12345
This editor was topic-banned for eight months. The topic ban expired yesterday, and he is already breaching the 1RR policy, of which he is well aware.
Given this editor's long history of edit-warring, his several blocks for this, and the previous AE case, a warning is unnecessary.
Topic ban should be reinstated.
Discussion concerning Wikifan12345
Statement by Wikifan12345
Comments by others about the request concerning Wikifan12345
Comments by Malik Shabazz
Comments by George
Hmm, am I the only one concerned that less than two hours after Wikifan's second revert to that article, All Rows4—a user with only 20 edits ever, from two days in May—shows up to revert back to Wikifan's version? ← George talk 19:12, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Comments by ZScarpia
Apologies for making what may be a digression, but I'd like to comment on one of Wikifan's comments.
Wikifan wrote: In any case, the content itself mostly remains because Avraham rewrote it using a better source. I thought Jewish Virtual Library was a reliable source and used it frequently prior to my talking ban (largely because they cite secondary sources - Bard just hosts the site).
As can be discovered easily, the JVL has been discussed at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard on a number of occasions, such as this occasion in 2010 and this occasion in 2008. It's clear that there is significant opposition to the use of The JVL as a reliable source. At best, the consensus is that JVL articles should be judged, according to who their authors are, on an individual basis. Specific objections were made about articles by Mitchell Bard, the author of the article Wikifan was using as a source to validate his edits. Strangely, even though Bard is clearly credited as the author of the source, Wikifan is claiming that "Bard just hosts the site." In the RS Noticeboard discussions, no evidence has been produced which indicates that any kind of editorial oversight is carried out. No evidence has been produced which supports the view that the organisation behind The JVL, American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise, should be accepted as a publisher of reliable material. According to one comment, some of the articles on The JVL are lifted from Wikipedia, which, if true, indicates clearly that The JVL should not be accepted unconditionally as a reliable source. In any case, for anything apart from proof of the opinions of the authors, The JVL cannot serve as anything but a tertiary source for which it would better to find reliable secondary sources.
Adding text in ignorance that identical text was deleted by another user at some time in the distant past is one thing, but from Wikifan's comments it's clear that he knew that he was undoing a previous user's edit. Probably, in the same situation, it would have occurred to a less rash editor, particularly one who has just completed a long
← ZScarpia 02:48, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Comments by Zero
I don't know if Wikifan broke 1RR or not, but I know he is pov-pushing just like he always did in the past. This Mitchell Bard thing is a typical example. Is it reasonable to cite the Executive Director of a major advocacy organization as if he is a reliable third-party source, without as much as an "according to..", on a subject well covered by independent academics? Is the Pope a Lutheran? Zerotalk 13:46, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Wikifan12345
This falls rather neatly into the grey area of xRR rules. I'm of the view that we do have a 1RR violation here (i.e., the first edit is a revert), but that the situation is sufficiently ambiguous that only a warning is required. T. Canens (talk) 00:08, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Dighapet
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
-  Massive editwar attacks that removed dozens of edits of 4 editors, which expanded and improved the article since June 2011.
-  editwar revert without any explanation made while under sanctions. Unexplained accusations of POV.
-  editwar revert without any explanation made while under sanctions. Unexplained accusations of POV.
-  major emotional attack displaying ethnonationalist battleground attitude WP:BATTLEGROUND, with exclamation marks and threats.
- , editwar revert. Unexplained accusations of POV.
-  major emotional attack displaying ethnonationalist battleground attitude WP:BATTLEGROUND, with shouting/exclamations.
-  major emotional attack displaying ethnonationalist battleground attitude WP:BATTLEGROUND and threats to editors. Frivolous accusations of sockpuppetry, harassment per Wikipedia:HARASSMENT, and incivility per Wikipedia:CIVILITY.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Warned on 22 March, 2011 by Dr.K. (talk · contribs)
- Warned on 13 April, 2011 by 2over0 (talk · contribs)
- Warned on 30 April, 2011 by Kuru (talk · contribs)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
User:Dighapet is a serial and convicted disruptive account in the Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 conflict area. I would dare to say he never made any useful contribution to Wikipedia in terms putting out text on substance, references or new topics. Most of his edits are editwar reverts, oftentimes with unsubstantiated accusations of POV, and with highly emotional battleground attitude as per WP:BATTLEGROUND, which eventually brought about a long revert ban that expired on 29 July. His last “accomplishment” was a massive act of editwar where he unmade over 100 edits by 4 editors on the Nagorno Karabakh page. Nagorno Karabakh’s page had lately been seriously enhanced with dozens of new references, images and new topics. Disagreements were thoroughly and usefully discussed in detail on talk pages . User:Dighapet ruined all that good work  less than a week after being released from a three-month-long revert ban .
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Comment by Volunteer Marek
Sigh. First, the fact that the filer of this report has gratuitously sprinkled terms like "editwar attack" and "editwar revert" and "major emotional attack" throughout the report immediately suggests that this is another case of ban-shopping via use of hyperbolic language. Reminder: disagreement and criticisms are not by themselves "attacks".
As to the specific diffs
- 1 - Yes, these are substantial changes and they should be discussed on the talk page first. If he keeps doing it without discussion then we have a problem. As is, it is not the province of AE to decide content matters. "Massive editwar attack" is itself an example of emotionally charged battleground language.
- 2 and #3 - what are these sanctions that are being referred to? I see no edit warring by the user on the article either, so again, this is just inflated language. A charge of "Unexplained accusations of POV" is spurious. For one thing he's not accusing any one editor of having a POV (and if he did, so what? All editors have POV), just saying that the article may be POV. This might or might not be a legitimate criticism, but again, this isn't the venue to decide that kind of thing.
- 3, #6 and #7 - what is this charge of "major emotional attack"? There's no "attack" here. And even if the commentary was "emotional" in this case (which I don't see), this isn't sanctionable per se. Nothing wrong here.
- 6 and #7 more specifically - "displaying ethnonationalist battleground" - there's some abuse of question marks here but this isn't sanctionable (not until Mr. Question Mark brings up a report). There's a sock puppeting accusation which may or may not have merit, and/or it may or may not be an example of a battleground attitude. The first sentence of the SP accusation appears to be true. The second one, at least at this point involves speculation. Ok, this is a little strong but again, nothing horribly wrong at this point. There are no "threats to editors" here and the reporter should be sanctioned for misrepresenting diffs.
- 5 - again, there's no edit warring here, contra the reporter's claim.
Basically this looks like frivolous block-shopping by Vandorenfm with little substance. AE is not a means to inflame or continue battleground behavior. See Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Institute a month long topic ban on filing AE reports or at least a warning on Vandorenfm.
Comment by Gorzaim
User:Dighapet is combative drive-by POV pusher, remorseless and tactless edit warrior who should be put back into the straightjacket of revert bans. I am tempted to qualify his latest act in the Nagorno Karabakh not as "edit war attack" per Vandorenfm but as vandalism but am not sure if this meets the technical specification of the vandalism. In essence it is. He removed all of my edits by frivolously accusing me of sockpuppeting. Gorzaim (talk) 00:26, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Dighapet
Statement by Dighapet
I don't understand emotional report by Vandorenfm but I will answer him here to his charges.
1. This revert that I reverted is from the time when began messing the article Nagorno-Karabakh. As we found out, Bars 77 (proof of Sockpuppet Investigation is here: ) is a sockpuppet of massive sockpuppet master . (his sockpuppet history which was discovered is here Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Xebulon/Archive. Probably he has more sockpuppet user names which need to be discovered. When a sockpuppet is revealed, all his POV edits are reverted. So, look at history of Nagorno-Karabakh page  and see how much POV he was inserting every day with assistance of other user names which make almost no edits other than on Nagorno-Karabakh page. So, please understand that these 3 (Bars77, Gorzaim, Vandorenfm) accounts have one master or they coordinate very wisely off Wikipedia. It's enough to see their POV edits to understand why they created those user names. They don't do other edits, just go to one page all together and change information to POV. Look at version that they have added since 28 June. It is like Azerbaijan never exited and that Karabakh was always Armenian. Very much POV inserted by certain users. And please take into consideration that I explained my revert here .
2. I don't understand what he wants from me by pointing out how I restored  the page with POV tag from version that User:Hasanjalal, Xebulon's (aka Bars77) sockpuppet vandalized after administrator User:Ronz was reverting it many times saying the article is POV and tagging it with POV tag . This claim in point 2 shows how the user reporting me is protecting his sockpuppet friends, if it's not himself. When he says "Unexplained accusations of POV", it's not unexplained. It was explained that User:Hasanjalal is sockpuppet of User:Xebulon.
3. Yes, my this edit is revert from POV because the source was saying that Heydar Aliyev said he made those policies after 3 Azeris were killed. If you are not sure, go read the article again. It's clear POV, when you take out that fact and just insert what your point of opinion is, not allowing reader to read the rest of context.
4. About this my comment on the talk page . So? What wrong was done here? I reverted your POV and said you were inserting POV because you re-do the text to show your point of opinion while deleting references to Nagorno-Karabakh being Azerbaijan's territory which is recognized by all world. You play with words to present different view to reader under your POV. Your accusation is meaningless.
5. I don't understand why you even include this . You should probably explain your arguments now because you throw baseless accusations in my address without any base. It was a revert of VANDALISM of IP who made this  edit by section-blanking. Understand?
6. What are you talking about? It was exchange of comments on my status with administrator. Baseless and meaningless information.
At the end, please again look at their contributions in whole as editors and history of Nagorno-Karabakh article. It is very clear that they coordinate everything. Nagorno Karabakh contributions history Dighapet (talk) 13:55, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Dighapet
Result concerning Dighapet
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
|No action against NickCT. He is warned to observe civility when discussing I-P articles. EdJohnston (talk) 21:18, 11 August 2011 (UTC)|
|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
Request concerning NickCT
Topic ban for a duration of one week to one month, per escalation from previous.
For the past month or so I've been having to put up with increasingly hostile and personally oriented rhetoric directed against me by editors in the I/P topic area. When at this very Noticeboard Tarc (talk · contribs) thrice accused me of sockpuppetry without citing a single diff as required per WP:NPA#WHATIS, I let it slide. After Nableezy (talk · contribs) attributed to me a batshit insane obsession with his edits for two edits I made, he redacted and I accepted. More recently, Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) called me an ass on his Talk page for trying to engage him in a calm one-on-one discussion; but he too struck the remark per my request and the matter has more-or-less been settled. NickCT (talk · contribs), on the other hand, not only called me "a committed Israel-Palestine POV warrior" without any evidence, but into the bargain has been repeatedly suggesting that I'm a sockpuppet or hiding previous user accounts, also without any evidence. I insisted that he withdraw his original comment or substantiate it in three different places to avoid creating a scene – but to no avail.
If people have a problem with my edits in I/P or have gotten into their heads that I'm a sockpuppet, it doesn't excuse attacks against me that violate WP:NPA and WP:ARBPIA#Decorum/WP:ARBPIA#Editors_reminded. I understand Decorum isn't as strictly enforced as other ARBIA principles are, but specifically in the case of User:NickCT, he has been sanctioned here before for his hostile interactions with editors he disagrees with in I/P, so either he genuinely doesn't understand what these policies entail, or else he's incapable of abiding by them. Either way, considering the perpetually tense atmosphere at I/P and NickCT's problematic conduct in the topic area in the past, I am requesting enforcement in this case. Every other means of reaching an understanding with this user has been exhausted in vain.
Appendix: In anticipation of the some of the comments likely to follow, I offer these preformulated responses. It isn't essential that the Admins considering my request read them.
Notified at user's Talk page: "You have demonstrated to me that you either do not understand WP:NPA or do not see yourself as needing to comply with it. I have requested enforcement of ARBPIA rulings against you here."
Discussion concerning NickCT
Statement by NickCT
Not sure how seriously I should take this, so I'll just make several quick points -
Comments by others about the request concerning NickCT
Result concerning NickCT
|Warned that his ban from the topic of Shakespeare includes talk pages. EdJohnston (talk) 02:45, 13 August 2011 (UTC)|
|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
Request concerning Smatprt
Smatprt was community topic banned last year for tendentious editing at Shakespeare authorship question (SAQ) and related articles. Arbcom held a case earlier this year which endorsed the topic ban and applied discretionary sanctions to SAQ-related material.
Earlier this month an article appeared in IEEE Spectrum by Mark Anderson one of Smatprt's fellow "Oxfordians" criticising Wikipedia's handling of the SAQ and the related dispute. Smatprt provided the author with an interview from which a quotation appears in the article. (I have Googled the words of the quotation and they do not appear elsewhere except in derivative sites.) All well and good so far. Smatprt is entitled to say what he wants elsewhere. However, he then posted in the discussion on Wikipedia about the article defending his associate and promoting this associate as a legitimate source on the SAQ. This is a clear violation of the topic ban. There is some meally-mouthed wording in which he claims not to be sure it is a violation but, as he was previously reminded of its scopt by Future Perfect at Sunrise, I am sure he was fully aware of the violation and was just trying to protect himself against action by pretending he did not know and would be content to be reverted by an uninvolved admin. I am neither an admin nor uninvolved but as the violation was so blatant I decided to revert it. Smatprt reverted me and then went and posted on Jimbo's and AGK's talk pages pretending to need advice about whether he really was violating his ban. His post on Jimbo's talk page happens to link the Spectrum article thus bringing it to the attention of the many watchers of that page. In all three posts he has made he has failed to disclose that he was interviewed for the Spectrum page and is thus associated with his fellow Oxfordian.
I initially reverted Smatprt's post and then when he reverted me I also posted a warning on his talk page. At the time I thought this was appropriate action. However I now think this was mistaken for the following reasons.
First, I was not aware of Smatprt's contribution to Anderson's article. In writing in support of each other, Smatprt and Anderson can be compared to apes indulging in mutual grooming. As one of the fleas who might fall victim to this reciprocal arrangement, I feel that this relationship increases the seriousness of Smatprt's violation of the topic ban.
Second, I was not aware of Smatprt's post to Jimbo's page. In posting a link to the Spectrum article to which he contributed, Smatprt is violating his topic ban. He is trying to influence other Wikipedians to look on the Oxfordian position over the SAQ and at his own topic ban more sympathetically. His plea about this being a genuine question is calculated to reduce the chance of the post with its link to the article from being reverted.
Third, I was not aware of Future Perfect at Sunrise's previous warning to Smatprt about his violation of the topic ban. This has convinced me that he knew full well that he was violating the topic ban and so has made me see his expression of doubt on the matter as calculated, meally-mouthed and disingenuous.
As far as sanctions are concerned, an extension to the topic ban is what I consider most appropriate. Smatprt has been pretty inactive during the period of the topic ban except when it was lifted during the Arbcom case. The article in which he has been most active in recent times concerns an organisation with which he is associated. He therefore does not seem to be greatly invested in Wikpedia except as a tool to promote his Oxfordian views.
Discussion concerning Smatprt
Statement by Smatprt
Comments by others about the request concerning Smatprt
Comment by LikeLakers2
Are you sure he was fully aware of the topic ban? Perhaps he forgot about it, or perhaps he was actually telling the truth about that he didn't know it extended to that. (unless I'm misunderstanding, as I don't even know exactly what the topic ban was for) Basically, are you sure he was intentionally violating his topic ban? LikeLakers2 (talk) 17:00, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Smatprt
|Frederico1234 is warned of the discretionary sanctions under ARBPIA. See the 'Result' section for details of the warning. EdJohnston (talk) 15:02, 14 August 2011 (UTC)|
|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
Request concerning Frederico1234
Topic ban for a month.
Today the article was at the main page and a few IP users and users had some questions about the article. They posted their questions to the article's talk page here and here. I added required information that I believe should go to the lead. Even if this information should not be in the lead Frederico1234 should have discussed where is the proper place to add the information versus simply removing it.
Discussion concerning Frederico1234
Statement by Frederico1234
I'm aware of the 1RR rule and agree that the article in question is covered by it.
3. Broccolo is mistaken. The edit did not occur within 24h.
4. This was an error of mine. Sorry for that.
6. This is a 1RR violation. In this case I thougth it would be easier for everyone to just use the edit summaries to do the explaining. In hindsight, I should probably have taken that to Talk.
Comments by others about the request concerning Frederico1234
Comment by asad
Comment by Volunteer Marek
While strictly speaking this may not be in the IP topic area it does appear to be some kind of a proxy war related to it. Having said that I don't see anything wrong with the comments in the first and last (#1 and #9) diffs provided. Being critical of Wikipedia or, in particular, of the atmosphere in a specific Wikipedia topic area is not objectionable. Neither does someone *have* a battleground mentality simply because they point out that a particular area *is* a battleground (more so if it happens to be true). Likewise, it is not forbidden to assume bad faith for editors who have substantial experience and interactions in a particular topic area - especially when the comment is not directed at anyone in particular.
Diffs #7 and #8 appear to be a content dispute (Frederico1234 is essentially right with regard to the letter of MOS but there could be exceptions).
Diff #4 is also a content dispute and, in case he's wrong, could be just an error on F's part - it would be more troublesome if this was a repeated edit, but as far as I can tell it's not.
This leaves diffs (3,4) and (5,6), which are potential violations of the IP 1RR restriction - assuming that this article does indeed fall under that topic's scope. Ok, then, just to make sure, is Frederico1234 aware of this restriction? I don't see the "Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) " section in the above report but given that F seems familiar with the topic area perhaps it wasn't required here. Still, in cases like this the usual practice is to give the user a "standard warning" from one of the AE admins before imposing any sanctions. Maybe that's all that's needed here.
Ok now to the diffs themselves. First problem is that diffs 2 and 6 are the exact same diff. This is a revert but it also appears to be a rephrasing and an answer to PlotSpoiler's question. Second is that these concern different material. Overall I'd call this a mild violation of 1RR. Additionally, if these edits are in breach of the 1RR sanction (if this article is indeed covered by the topic area), then so are those of PlotSpoiler from 20:20 July 26 and 2:13 July 27.
So at the end of the day what you got here is a possibility of a somewhat mild transgression, combined with a whole bunch of diff-padding to make it look much worse than it is.
I'd warn Frederico and PlotSpoiler and remind them of the 1RR restriction again, and warn Broccolo for perpetuating battleground in the topic area by filing somewhat spurious AE requests full of diffs that don't show much of anything. Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:17, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Wikifan12345
Fred doesn't have a history at ARBPIA log and he has zero blocks. I know I/P has tighter rules than other areas of wikipedia but for a first offense a topic ban seems rather excessive even assuming he has done the things he is being accused of. I guess one could argue from a behavioral standard but I'm not the best judge. I think this should be closed with a mild warning to all parties involved. Anything beyond that would be unfair IMO. WikifanBe nice 09:24, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Gatoclass
In response to T. Canens' query as to how this article relates to the A-I conflict, to quote just one paragraph from the article in question:
The distribution of Mein Kampf has been pointed to by Israel as an example of the influence of Nazism for Arab nationalists in their war against the Jewish State. In a speech to the United Nations immediately following the Suez Crisis in 1956, Golda Meir stated that the Arabic translation of Mein Kampf was found in Egyptian soldiers' knapsacks. Historian David Dalin wrote that during the 1967 Six-Day War, many Egyptian soldiers were found carrying an Arabic edition produced by the Arab Information Center in Cairo.
Comment by ZScarpia
From appearances, item 4 should be discounted. Firstly, the quote starts: "Copies of the translation are understood to have been distributed ... ." What the word 'understood' means is that the writer was unsure about the veracity of what followed or had been unable to verify it. That sentence, therefore, can't act as a source of validation for the statement of fact made in the Wikipedia article. Secondly, the quote is about a delivery to London bookshops. It specifically mentions London, it specifically mentions bookshops, it doesn't say who the books were sold to (Arabs aren't the only ones who can read Arabic), it doesn't even say that the bookshops were supplying the books to UK customers. The sentence that Frederico edited read: "... and sells well in Arab neighborhoods of Great Britain." Somehow, a previous author invented the concept of Arab neighbourhoods in the UK. Perhaps that editor thinks that the UK is like the West Bank, but with Arab settlements. Or maybe London was being confused with Paris. In any case, the source says only that the books were supplied to London bookshops. It says nothing about the locations of those bookshops or the ethnic composition in those areas. Frederico was certainly correct to say that the Telegraph article in question didn't support the statement in Wikipedia. ← ZScarpia 17:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Cptnono
Just to clarify, the article is certainly under ARPIA. The article could be used by editors supporting Israel to make Palestinians look bad (or at least that concern could be assumed by editors with a pro-Palestinian slant). There is actually a discussion over on the talk page and at the Palestine-Israel Collaboration project since the high sales in the Palestinian Territories with possible support from the PNA is a contentious topic. Maybe the article still isn't clear enough but it is part of the topic area.Cptnono (talk) 05:44, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Frederico1234
|Jonchapple is placed on Troubles probation for three months, which limits him to 1RR/wk on Troubles articles. EdJohnston (talk) 16:15, 14 August 2011 (UTC)|
|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
Request concerning Jonchapple
The editor is well aware of the enforcement and sanctions, and has made it a habbit of arguing the point regardless. As the notices placed on their talk page illustrate, this disruption is spreed over a number of articles. As this edit summary and edit show, the editor is just not intrested. The editor is knowingly violating this enforcement. Should addition diff be required I'm more than happy to provid them.
Discussion concerning Jonchapple
Statement by Jonchapple
Bugger. All I can say in my defence is that I honestly forgot that this article would be subject to 1RR in my eagerness to try and enforce WP:MOSBIO—i.e. that nationality, not ethnicity, should be referenced in the lead. This was unhelpfully reverted by Domer48 with no edit summary or explanation at all, so he's not entirely innocent in all this either.
I object to being told that I'm "just not interested" for removing Domer48's notice from my page—I'm entitled to keep my talk page at whichever revision I see fit; a right he exercised not two hours ago when I civilly tried to give an explanation backed up the MOS for my edit. However, it's true that I've been warned before and should have remembered 1RR, especially considering the subject of my edit was directly involved in The Troubles, so I'm at fault there. Go easy on me; I've kept my nose clean up until now. JonChappleTalk 13:37, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Jonchapple
Result concerning Jonchapple
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by DIREKTOR
|DIREKTOR's appeal is granted since the admin applying the topic ban was involved. No objection to a new ban request being filed at AE. EdJohnston (talk) 22:05, 17 August 2011 (UTC)|
|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by DIREKTOR
User:Fainites has imposed sanctions in pretty obvious violation of WP:INVOLVED for the purposes of POV-pushing on two separate talkpages. The user has imposed a six-month topic ban, broadly construed, which incorporates all subjects I edit (to all effects and purposes an effective six-month block) on the basis of WP:ARBMAC, while engaged in two disputes with myself. The user is fully involved in two content discussions with me, is opposed to my position in both, and will directly benefit from my ban in that his preferred position in the two disputes will now go through without any opposition whatsoever. Diffs follow on the user's involvement in the two talkpages. The disputes are long and complex, so please accept my apologies for the length of the disclosure.
This is the brief version of examples for the first dispute between Fainites and myself that he has so elegantly "resolved" just now. Again, a quick read through the talkpage will show the user is in fact completely involved in the dispute, and opposes my position therein.
Please note these are by no means the only cases depicting the WP:INVOLVEMENT of User:Fainites in the relevant content disputes, only a few of the more obvious examples are listed. The user is fully involved in the disputes in general (just like all other users), and the entire talkpages could be listed here for review to that effect. The full text of the disputes is of course available on Talk:Draža Mihailović, Talk:Draža Mihailović/ethnic conflict drafts, and Talk:Serbia under German occupation. I do earnestly believe however, that this is more than enough, and that even fewer of these quotes should suffice.
P.S. I will note that this issue was brought-up on ANI, essentially by mistake, as this is an issue of misuse of an WP:ARBCOM decision. There, as an uninvolved observer noted rather colourfully , the discussion was effectively swamped by hostile comments (complete with false accusations of sockpuppetry ) on the part of half-a-dozen involved users, all of which involved users who support Fainites' position on the two talkpages, and oppose my own. No doubt there will be attempts to label this appeal "resolved", in spite of having been posted in the wrong place, in spite of the lobbying by the group that supports the same edits as Fainites, and frankly, in spite of quite overwhelming evidence of a breach of WP:INVOLVED. When I was advised at last to bring this up here in the proper venue, I did so immediately. The comment was also made there that "WP:INVOLVED is the most commonly broken policy by admins" . --DIREKTOR (TALK) 23:24, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
At the time I essentially accepted the one-month ban without major opposition, as an admin's decision and one to be respected. However, since then I've begun to perceive something of the larger picture. Every major discussion I've been involved in included Fainites (since I met him some eight months ago). It became impossible to get involved into a discussion without Fainites arriving sooner or later, and assuming the role of self-appointed "arbitrator" of who's right and who's wrong. And sure enough, in every issue of every discussion for the past six months, I cannot remember a single discussion or dispute I've had, where Fainites was not present and where he did not oppose my position, whatever it might be. As you might imagine, its very hard to participate on Wikipedia when you've got an admin inevitably appearing every time and throwing his weight against you in every single disagreement that might come-up. The atmosphere eventually created by this pattern of behaviour, in my perception at least, was that of mistrust, frustration, and hostility. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 03:37, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Re new post by Fainites
In all honestly, I do not see the relevance of Fainites' post with regard to WP:INVOLVED. It is a very thorough elaboration on Fainites' perception of the events, I certainly disagree with most of the allegations and the user's interpretations of many of the events described, and I could post another massive point-by-point reply describing my own view of the events, and where I believe Fainites has presented them with his commentaries in a biased way - but I do not see how any of this relates to the appeal.
I would also like participants here to note that I will be physically unable to post on Wikipedia from tomorrow onward, as I am going on a prolonged holiday away from home. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 16:57, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Fainites
Here is the relevent ANI thread at which a number of editors of varying degrees of involvment expressed their views.
Link to list of articles which I complied given DIREKTORs original allegations, showing which Balkans articles I have edited in.
For ease of reference, my posts from ANI on issue of "involved" giving my position on this issue
response to specific allegations of DIREKTOR
Response to DIREKTORs "Part 1" allegations. Sorry it’s a bit long. You can avoid reading this by reading the whole of the talkpages.
Regarding DIREKTORs characterisation of this as a content dispute with everybody else as a group pushing a particular version of content, this is nonsense, but the editors concerned, particularly Sunray the mediator, and Nuujinn, and some others, answered themselves at ANI.Fainites barleyscribs 13:33, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
I don't think anybody was suggesting that Karchmar either be excluded or should "outrank" any other decent source. As you can see my concern was that having said Karchmar, Nuujinn, is a biased source and has been discredited on several separate occasions in Balkans discussions (and not by myself I'll add). The author is a Serb nationalist, an emigre I believe, who adopts a very slanted view on Balkans history., quite an extreme statement, DIREKTOR failed to evidence it but argued about at great length, seeming to expect editors would take his statement at face value. This sort of thing was why the mediator got the mediation participants to agree to sourced assertions only on the talkpage, to avoid the usual TLDR offensive nationaist exchanges so common on these pages and which effectively stall them. I can see FuFoFuEd's point though about subsequently expressing an opinion on how the sources should be represented. I accept that appears to be a step to far. I do not however, think it is being "involved" to insist on editors sourcing their bold assertions in highly contentious areas.
Nuujinn produced the Kitroeff review in that discussion here FuFoFuEd. It was the only review produced. A number of historians specifically mention his work and quotes were added to the quotation page. The point is - DIREKTOR produced nothing in support of his claim that Karchmar was a discredited Serbian nationalist. Nor was his description of earlier exchanges on talkpages about Karchmar accurate as I hunted those out too to see if there were any other references to reviews.
Regarding the discussion on revisionist sources - this was actually a bit off topic. Someone had the brilliant idea of setting up a quotes subpage as editors trading rival quotes tend to make the talkpages very complicated. It also meant that if a quote was being "cherry-picked" or used out of context, the rest of the quote could be added. This could be a very useful resource for a whole range of articles. I added a bit from MacDonald about revisionist histories in the area. The subsequent discussion between me and DIREKTOR is really just chatting about Tudjman and the diaspora Croats and so on and me summarising bits of MacDonald for him. They're not my opinions - they're MacDonalds. I hadn't thought of this exchange as particularly germane. Presumably neither did DIREKTOR think the quote was germane hence his query as to why I put it on the quotes page.
As I said, I can see FuFoFuEd's point about expressing an opinion on how the sources should be represented in that last comment on Draza M. I can also see the point about puttng a case together for AE. Of course, had it not been for ArbMac this wouldn't have arisen in this way. I think one of the problems is - I didn't go into this to ban and block editors. I went in to help moderate and focus discussions to enable source based collaborative editing. Neither did I go in with any views on any of it and I still don't have any now really. I did occasionally issue short blocks for edit warring but mostly I would protect the page for a short period and get people to discuss instead. It was only over the course of several months that it gradually became apparent to me that long-term disruption, OWN and TEND by DIREKTOR was one of the biggest problems in the area. Hence the 1 month topic ban followed by this one.
Statement by Sunray
My interaction with Direktor has been restricted to two forums: 1) The Draza Mihailovic mediation, which is privileged, currently on hold, and, in any case, unrelated to this Arbitration Enforcement appeal, and 2) A moderated discussion at Talk:Draža Mihailović which is related to the WP:ARBMAC Topic Ban and AE appeal. While Direktor has argued that I am in dispute with him, I do not regard this as accurate. However, in the course of the moderated discussion, I did have occasion to caution and warn him, as I did other participants. These warnings may be relevant to the topic ban, and I am willing to present some information on that, as needed. However, the topic at hand is whether or not Fainites is an "involved administrator" according to WP:INVOLVED. I will address the two issues separately, below.
Was Fainites "involved" per policy
The policy sets out two interrelated criteria to determine whether an administrator is involved:
Two interrelated criteria are set out in the policy to determine whether an administrator is involved:
Having gone through the diffs that Direktor has provided, I must say that, according to my reading of the policy, he has not demonstrated that Fainites ‘’is’’ an “involved” administrator. Direktor repeatedly states that “Fainites argues...” (“against the map label...” “for using the term ‘puppet state,’” etc., etc. It is certainly true that Fainites does get into content. However, it is a complex dispute, involving technical details regarding sources. If one looks at the diffs provided in context one sees that Fainites is, in fact, moderating. For example, looking at Direktor's first diff this diff in context, one sees Fainites doing the following:
It seems clear to me that Fainites is carrying out a relatively neutral balancing act--and trying very hard to assist editors in coming to agreements in this volatile Balkans topic area. I don’t see him disputing with anyone. However, I’m not going to beat a dead horse. No doubt Fainites sails close to the wind at times and several administrators have indicated that they do think that he was involved. I will comment on the validity of the topic ban separately. Sunray (talk) 23:25, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
The following pertains to repeated violations of WP Behavioural Policies and disruptive editing by DIREKTOR on the Draža Mihailović talk page and related subpages since returning, on May 8, 2011, from a one month topic ban  by Fainites.
For just over one year, until April 27, 2011, Direktor was a participant in the Draza Mihailovic mediation. The mediation resulted in a redraft of the Mihailovic article. The mediation is privileged and I am bound to make no comment on it. However, further discussion (open to all editors) on issues of "collaboration" and "ethnic conflict" continued on the article talk page, moderated by me. Since that time, Director has engaged in personal attacks and ad hominem, repeatedly disputed and denigrated other editors and has tendentiously refused to cease discussions. A summary follows:
Personal attacks, personalizing discussion, ad hominem (WP:NPA, WP:CIV)
Disruptiveness, tendentiousness (WP:DISRUPT, WP:POINT)
My conclusion is that, whether or not Fainites was "involved," (and I reiterate that I do think he was carrying out an administrative role, and was, therefore, not involved), there is more than adequate evidence to support a six-month topic ban. Sunray (talk) 00:03, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Nuujinn
First, a question, is it appropriate for me to comment on DIREKTOR's actions here, or it this discussion focussed on Fainites's level of involvement only?
I don't feel I have the experience to judge what you all would regard as an inappropriate ban given Fainites's level of involvement, but I will say that I believe Fainites has acted consistently in good faith, has been level headed throughout difficult discussions, and has been an enormous aid in the discussions. I would be happy to answer any questions if anyone cares to ask me anything, I'm just not sure what my role in this particular venue is. --Nuujinn (talk) 01:18, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by DIREKTOR
Statement by Volunteer Marek
I think Fainities statement on this page is itself pretty solid proof that he is indeed involved in these disputes.
As a response to Sunray I think that whether someone is "moderating" a discussion or "taking sides" (and then enforcing their side with blocks) is a very fine line, and one which is best not even approached. Again, opens up the door to abuse.
I'd also like to remind everyone that AE is not a place to rehash content disputes.
Response to F^3Ed
Statement by FuFoFuEd
I think Volunteer Marek is being too acerbic here. By all appearances, Fainites is well-meaning in protecting the integrity of Wikipedia as he states (as opposed to advancing some nationalist POV agenda). I have no doubt that the area is "rife with relentless POV pushers", as Fainites says, and that when faced with two nationalist camps, which both are likely to "cherry pick" only sources/passages that suit their POV, it is hard to establish WP:CONSENSUS by just surveying what that kind of editors say on Wikipedia. Fainites' diligence in checking the sources himself, both for accuracy and sufficient context is quite commendable. However, extensive participation in forming consensus about the reliability of sources in non-straightforward cases like potentially biased historians, and opining in content issues, e.g. what is a good overview of some topic, constitutes content involvement.
I've spent some times looking though AE archives trying to find some how-to-proceed-properly in a case like this. It seems to me that Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive93#QuackGuru is a good example of filling a case against a persistent POV pusher who misused sources. I'm not making a comparison between QuackGuru and DIREKTOR. What I am saying here, is that it would have been far better form for Fainites, whom through his extensive talk page participation had intimate knowledge of DIREKTOR's statements, to have assembled a list of what he saw as source misuses, and a list of (alleged) WP:IDHT threads by DIREKTOR, and to have submitted them to the attention of others (WP:AE or ARBCOM) admins having no shade of content involvement. It's quite human to see someone repeating a point you disagree with as over-the-top disruptive, even though uninvolved observers may just see it as "Wikipedia as usual". I've done it myself not so long ago, LOL. FuFoFuEd (talk) 10:21, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
As for the spat over Lucien Krachmar's authority as a historian, I agree that DIREKTOR made some unsupported statements (blogs notwithstanding) and they were even potentially BLP-violating. However, some of Krachmar's conclusions have been received coldly or outright rejected by other historians/reviewers  and his work is seen as more sympathetic to the Chetniks than other accounts.  So, it depends which statements one wants to include, and how they are balanced against other views. There is no such thing as absolute reliability or unreliability in these matters. Nor can one find a completely unbiased historian. (One can find an even more sympathetic account published in the same period by the Hoover Institution ) Take care, FuFoFuEd (talk) 11:39, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Hmm, I think we do agree. At least I agree with you when you wrote "The dogged refusal to simply document a divergence in academic sources is not helpful" in this thread: . But it seems to me that User:PRODUCER was more at fault there than User:DIREKTOR, who at least inched away from his initial hardline position. At some point--17:48, 14 July 2011 (UTC)--both you and DIREKTOR agreed to WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, but somehow there was still an argument between you two, I'm not sure exactly about what. Then PRODUCER started making broad negative (and incorrect in my view) statements around 21:25, 15 July 2011 (UTC). FuFoFuEd (talk) 13:27, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
I think enough editors have interacted with DIREKTOR that they can make a request here for a ban if that's what they desire, but he doesn't seem to be the worst offender in that discussion, nor does he appear incorrigible to me, although it would surely help if DIREKTOR just plain admitted when he made an erroneous statement because the lack of that simple gesture surely fueled the flack he kept taking,  which (in my opinion) needlessly inflamed the situation and prevented a quick resolution. It all depends on whether that kind of discussion happens often enough to waste a lot of others time. YMMV as they say. I've certainly wasted enough of mine just reading that page. FuFoFuEd (talk) 13:27, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by DIREKTOR
Suggestion For Closing
After looking at all the comments here I would suggest the following to close this:
OK, fair enough re the above, ie getting drawn into content and the banning DIREKTOR myself. But has anybody got any more advice on where the borders are in general? I mean - on the basis that it wasn't OK to express an opinion on "which version", was it OK to post five different versions of a lead sentence until one which everybody agreed was found? Was it OK to post the results of the sources I found? Is it OK to protect the page for a few days and try and get editors to restart a discussion? Regarding sources, presumably it's OK to act if someone specifically mis-cites a source, but what about failure to source assertions? Was it OK to keep requesting that they do? I mean this in the context of being an admin. I have no interest in actually editing content and thus becoming involved in the neverending nationalist POV pushing but I would be interested in contnuing to try and mediate/moderate discussions to enable normal, collaborative editing if possible. Fainites barleyscribs 13:20, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
|No action taken. EdJohnston (talk) 15:38, 18 August 2011 (UTC)|
|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
Request concerning RolandR
Requests by Jaakobou (merged case):
Additional diffs merged from case request by Jaakobou:
p.s. I used Google only to show that my own translation (native Israeli) was correct.
(Is it necessary to copy-paste the diffs to all the other blocks at his Block log?)
Firstly it should be noted that I tried to engage RolandR (talk · contribs) on his Talk page prior to coming here in the friendliest and most nonthreatening way possible. I was more than willing to assume good faith on his part and offer him the chance to explain his edits. But hardly did 15 minutes pass and he reverted my query, basically leaving me with no other alternative but coming to AE.
Now, I'm not a believer in drawing conclusions regarding an editor based on a superficial glance at his contribs; on the other hand, I'm also not about to spend hours going through User:RolandR's edits to cherry-pick the ones that support labeling him a Marxist anti-Zionist. I suspect, rather, that he himself will embrace that label as applying to him without considering it an affront to his identity. If not, though, I'm perfectly willing to strike out the suggestion and apologize to him if in the event that I've misjudged him.
To the matter of the diffs. In 1992 Ezra Nawi, an activist for various Palestinian causes, was convicted by an Israeli court of statutory rape of a Palestinian boy. It was in the news extensively then, and it's all over the news again now because of the presidential elections in Ireland. (See the New York Times, for example.) Yet there's no mention of Nawi's conviction anywhere in his article. No, it's not that no one ever tried to add that information to the article. On the contrary, many have. It's that RolandR has been repeatedly thwarting their attempts. In the diff that I've cited, RolandR reverts an exceedingly well-sourced addition to the article by another editor – and to make matters worse, he labels the other editor's contribution vandalism.
At anti-Zionism, RolandR reverted an edit by Wikifan12345 (talk · contribs) such that he attributed to Wikipedia's neutral voice a claim made or implied by a fringe website. According to his edit, some Jews are anti-Zionist, from which it follows that anti-Zionism is not inherently antisemitic. This is a problem because the website he references, jewsnotzionists.com, isn't a reliable source by any stretch of the imagination. What it is is an advocacy site for Jewish anti-Zionists.
Taken together, these diffs represent problematic behavior on RolandR's part, of projecting his personal values and beliefs onto the Project and disrupting sincerely constructive edits of other contributors. Again, I tried to seek clarification from RolandR regarding his behavior at his Talk page, but to no avail.—Biosketch (talk) 19:53, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Additional notes by Jaakobou
p.s. I apologize for the merger, but this is the best solution IMHO after seeing another case was put forth while I was finishing up mine. With respect, JaakobouChalk Talk 21:24, 5 August 2011 (UTC) touch-ups 21:37, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
p.p.s. I've just noticed a few comments were made by an editor with whom I share an interaction ban. This would not have been an issue had I posted a case without merger, I am not sure on the best way of handling the issue (repost as a single case? ignoring each other on this post? other?). Let me know. JaakobouChalk Talk 21:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC) - extra update/clarification+diffs 14:03, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Note: Wikipedia is a collaborative project. RolandR's claims and repeated reverts were certainly enough to discourage any new editor -- seeing that 3 reliable sources are so easily misrepresented and removed again and again -- from making further contributions. Also, RolandR had not admitted to any fault in regards to Ezra Nawi (As of now). Just imagine the long term impact of his behavior if it is allowed to become a norm in the Israeli-Arab content area. New editors discouraged from making contributions and the old POV warriors would make an abundance of patently false claims about Hebrew and Arabic sources. Arbcom enforcement would be faced with extraordinary levels of battleground mentality, mud slinging and drama. JaakobouChalk Talk 18:37, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
I really wish you had just answered my last message here. I was more than willing to listen and consider your perspective. But seeing as you aren't interested in dialog, I've referred your conduct to AE here.
@Nableezy (talk · contribs), you mean to tell me that Hummus is I/P but trying to censor details pertaining to an Israeli who raped a Palestinian boy isn't? And I didn't mine through anyone's contribs. I used to closely monitor Anti-Zionism and it's still on my watchlist, and the incident involving Ezra Nawi is being featured prominently in the news now, and I naturally was interested in knowing what Wikipedia had to say about the guy. I found it peculiar that the editor who insisted on attributing to Wikipedia a claim made by jewsnotzionists.com was the same editor who insisted on whitewashing the biography of an Israeli activist for Palestinian causes convicted of statutory-raping a minor.—Biosketch (talk) 20:46, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
@Jaakobou (talk · contribs), I don't mind at all that you merged your Request into mine. I would advise you, however, to strike out forthwith any comments you made that may have been in violation of your interaction ban. Based on previous AEs, if you do so soon enough you'll preempt any sanctions against you.
@EdJohnston (talk · contribs), "Should this use be considered to violate WP:ARBPIA?" – see Discussion page, since this is more of a meta-level question and the discussion here's gotten bloated.—Biosketch (talk) 07:21, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Discussion concerning RolandR
Statement by RolandR
This is ridiculous; an entirely spurious and worthless claim.
In the first place, it is not an offence to be a Marxist and an anti-Zionist; nor even to edit Wikipedia while being a Marxist and an anti-Zionist. That comment should be struck out. Not because I am "affronted", but because it is irrelevant, an apparent attempt to have me sanctioned because of my beliefs, not my edits.
Second, both blocks noted by Biosketch were swiftly reversed; in both cases, it was accepted that I had been attempting to protect biographies (one of a living person, one of a recently murdered person) against abusive edits by sockpuppets.
As to the specific edits adduced here: on the Ezra Nawi article, Biosketch claims that my edit on 30 July was invalid, and that I should have known this because of an article published in the New York Times on 3 August! It is not the case that the case itself was "in the news extensively" in 1992; part of the problem here is that there appears to be no contemporary account, in Hebrew or English, of the incident, and it has been extremely difficult to establish the facts. Certainly, at the time of my edit, the information was sketchy, and the source cited did not verify the serious charges made. My edit was perfectly legitimate.
On Anti-Zionism, I was reverting a removal of text, which had been justified with the edit summary "a) unreliable source b) infers jews cannot be antisemitic. that is a fallacy". I pointed out that any inference drawn from the text was the editor's own synthesis, and that the source was indeed reliable for the organisation's own views. Biosketch may strongly dispute these views, as is his right; but he cannot deny that many Jews do indeed hold them. Again, I do not see any way in which my edit was illegitimate or disruptive.
I think that this complaint is entirely without merit, and hope that it will be rejected out of hand, and Biosketch warned against such vexatious abuse of this noticeboard. RolandR (talk) 20:39, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning RolandRThe first diff cited is not in the ARBPIA topic area, the second is using a primary source for the views of the source (namely that the group is Jewish and against Zionism). There is an unfortunate tendency on display here, one in which an editor mines though others contributions so that they may attempt to find any diff that they feel can be used as damning evidence of misconduct. Fortunately, those efforts largely fall flat on their face as any truly damning diffs would be noticed as they occurred. This is one such instance. Biosketch in his lengthy commentary above writes that the source Roland used in the second diff is an advocacy site for Jewish anti-Zionists. Now, that pretty obviously says that there are Jewish anti-Zionists. Which is the only thing that Roland used this website as a source for. To argue that this is "POV-pushing" is, well, POV-pusing (namely, the attempt to exclude a specific POV).
Now to the first diff. The first sentence is sourced (though the use of the word sodomy is not, the cited article says convicted of having sex without specifying the type of sex), though the rest is cited only to Hebrew language sources, one of which is the actual court case. The court case cannot be used in a BLP, as we are required to use reliable secondary sources for any contentious claims (and a claim of a criminal conviction is certainly contentious). As this is a BLP, I personally would prefer the source cited be in English so that it is more easily verifiable, but if it actually does support the material then I suppose it would be fine, but as I cannot read Hebrew I cannot say whether or not it does so. But either way, whether or not this person was convicted of drug possession or any other crime is not in the ARBPIA topic area and as such is irrelevant for this board. nableezy - 20:23, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Volunteer Marek
With regard to the first diff - there was actually several other reverts on this article as this was essentially an edit war between RolandR and User:Cckkab. However, this IS a BLP and the text being inserted by Cckkab was a potential BLP violation. In fact EdJohnston subsequently protected the article  and removed the same text that RolandR was removing . This was also addressed at 3RR. This suggests that content-wise RolandR was NOT POV-pushing.
The second diff is a single revert, and while strictly speaking RolandR should have attributed the opinion to the source just to make sure, this is at bottom another content dispute. Nothing to see here.
Just to make sure everyone's on the same page: reverting others, by itself, IS NOT against any kind of Wikipedia policy or ArbCom decision. In fact, in many cases reverts can be beneficial to the encyclopedia. Hence, putting up diffs of a revert here or there by a particular editor really serves no purpose, except as "diff-padding".Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:55, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Wikifan12345
I guess I should weigh in cause my name is mentioned. The only complaint I have about RolandR is his occasional uncivilized demeanor. Like Bio mentioned above, Roland accuses me of inserting my own synthesis when I removed an unreliable source. I opened a discussion here which I know RolandR has seen but apparently hasn't responded to. Also, Roland recently opened up an AE against me over a 1RR violation demanding a topic ban. That generated a lot of drama and ended up with a warning.
What is odd is that Roland wasn't even involved in the article at the time. It just feels weird to know he is following me around. Also, I know editors have more rights over their talk page but I found this response totally unnecessary: Removing unwanted nonsense. A cordial reminder about how AE's are carried out in a notice he filed himself? Wikipedia is all about collaboration and honestly I'm kind of afraid to edit articles articles RolandR dominates - like anti-Zionism because he won't engage in talk discussion and will remove all my contributions.
I never suggested you were not involved in Anti-Zionism. I said, specifically, you were not involved in the talk discussion. Your revert was IMO baseless and without merit. You re-inserted a very unreliable source, then accused me of SYNTH? Seriously? Look at my revert, look at the discussion. Collaborate, communicate, etc. WikifanBe nice 14:28, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Possible 1 rr violation
I've come to understand how important 1rr is in I/P conflict. So is this a violation?
2 reverts in 7 hours. The first edit looks like Roland removed cited content. A few days ago Roland filed a 1rr violation against me calling for a topic ban just to be clear. WikifanBe nice 23:45, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Gatoclass
Another frivolous case initiated by Jaakobou - and unfortunately by Biosketch, who is rapidly establishing a similar pattern. Whether or not one agrees with RolandR's reversions in this instance, they were clearly within the remit of WP:BLP, and EdJohnston, an uninvolved admin, effectively endorsed Roland's cautionary approach when he made the same revert "per BLP" before protecting the page. Moreover, the issue appears to be reaching a resolution on the article talk page, so there was absolutely no need to initiate a case here. Gatoclass (talk) 06:11, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Cptnono
Disregarding ARBPIA completely, a discussion might be appropriate regarding the suspension of Twinkle privileges. Not sure if that should be somewhere else but to make a few quick points: It should be more obvious vandalism and the edit summaries should have been clearer regarding feelings on BLP. The situation may not have have escalated if an editor was not being repeatedly called a vandal.Cptnono (talk) 05:47, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Comments by ZScarpia
Biosketch's logic is faulty. Roland made an existential statement about anti-Zionist Jews, but without indicating the implications of the statement or conclusions that should be drawn from it. There are many conflicting possibilties, but none of them positively implied by what was written. I think that Biosketch drew the inference he did because he saw what he wanted to see.
The Oxford English Dictionary gives many different meanings for the word yet, most of them having to do with time. In spite of appears to me to be the one closest to what Roland meant. Substituting the use of the word despite, then, the meaning of Roland's sentence is:
Looking at that I can think of a different possible implications of that, but nothing definitely implied. For instance, it could be possible that: some Jews could be antisemitic themselves; some Jews could believe that Zionism is worse than antisemitism; some Jews may not believe that anti-Zionism is inherently antisemitic. The reasoning which probably produced Biosketch's conviction that the inevitable implication of Roland's sentence is that anti-Zionism is not antisemitic is too deterministic for me. In fact, probably in common with a lot of editors here, the reading I've done has supplied reasons why there are anti-Zionist Jews, which include the following. Some Jews are anti-Zionist because it is an ideology which offends their political or ethical beliefs. Some are because it offends their religious beliefs (for instance, some believe that Jews should have waited for God to send someone to lead them back to the Promised Land). Some are because Zionism threatens their safety (in a past example, there was opposition to Zionism in its early days from Jews already living in the Palestine area because they believed that it would inevitably lead to inter-communal violence; Zionism was also opposed because it was thought that antisemites would use it as a propaganda weapon to claim that Jews' proper homes were somewhere else).
Biosketch called the statement that there are anti-Zionist Jews "a controversial claim" and one that "must be sourced to a WP:RS or formulated in such a way as to attribute the claim to the organization itself."
In its introduction, WP:RS says: "To show that it is not original research, all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable, published source appropriate for the content in question, but in practice you do not need to attribute everything." The latter part of that sentence justifies the existence in Wikipedia articles of huge numbers of unsourced non-controversial statements. They are there because there truth is so obvious that nobody challenges them.
Looking, as an example, at the Zionism article, we hit the unsourced statement: At that time, the movement sought to encourage Jewish migration to the Ottoman Palestine. The statement is not there because editors are too lazy to challenge it, but because its truth is so obvious that nobody sane, who understood the rules, had a passing knowledge of Zionism and who wasn't trying to make trouble would challenge it. To me and, I'm fairly sure, a large number of other editors, Roland's sentence is obviously true too. I'm sure that many people involved in the IP area of Wikipedia could run off a list of bitterly fought over articles whose subjects are anti-Zionist Jews without having to give it much thought. Why would Biosketch challenge the sentence? One of the odd things about it for me is that one of his sentences here tends to indicate that he accepts the existence of anti-Zionist Jews. He wrote: "@Nableezy, it's neither here nor there what my feelings are about Jewish anti-Zionists." Another odd thing is that I'm sure that he must know that Roland, as well as being an anti-Zionist Marxist, is Jewish and therefore a living example of the thing whose existence he is challenging.
← ZScarpia 01:51, 7 August 2011 (UTC) (correction made: 11:05, 10 August 2011 (UTC))
@Biosketch, 08:05, 9 August 2011 (UTC): I'll try to explain myself more clearly. As far as the Anti-Zionism article is concerned, you've misrepresented what the sentence prior to the one added by Roland said. You've misrepresented the purport of Roland's sentence. And you've invented a motivation for Roland. In other words, you've constructed a rather nasty straw man. Having invented your straw man, you're using it to try and have Roland sanctioned and to stop the addition of Roland's simple statement of transparent truth to the article. If anyone is POV-pushing, it is you. ← ZScarpia 21:21, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Comments by Nishidani
Roland's revert, the first above, was completely justified because what was involved was a piece of linguistic sleight-of-hand. The source says he was convicted of sodomy. This was phrased as a conviction for sodomizing a minor. Perhaps it is a sign of the decay of the times, or is it the drift into pornomorbid sleaze in public discourse and tabloid politics, that the obvious distinction here is lost on many. 'Sodomy' is generic, and refers to acts deemed characteristic of homosexual behaviour and in violation of the law forbidding the same in certain backward (sorry about the pun) countries (sorry about that too). 'Sodomize' is specific, and refers to anal intercourse. Do I need to refer readers to the extensive memoirs of the Bloomsbury and Homintern writers where this distinction was well-known, and where many homosexuals a court might have convicted of 'sodomy' in the legal sense (homosexual acts) disdained anal intercourse. I don't want to go into the details, but no one has a right to infer that a conviction of sodomy implies a type of act. Many of the lads in England thought intercrural rapports were the best, and that, while a case in legalese of 'sodomy', has nothing to do with sodomizing. Precisely this inference on the part of those editors who supported the text which Roland rightly reverted was an instance of WP:OR and WP:BLP violations. Nishidani (talk) 19:52, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning RolandR