Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board

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22 May:

St John's Cathedral, Brisbane
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Here are some tasks you can do to help with WikiProject Australia:


Requests · ABSTUDY · Ariadne Australia · Awakenings disability arts festival · Drought Force · Electoral reform in Australia · Festival of the Dreaming · Fossils of Australia · Landforms of Australia · National Tidal Centre · Property Council of Australia

Articles needing attention · Crime in Australia · Cycling Australia Done Disappearance of Joanne Ratcliffe and Kirste Gordon · Environment of Australia · Privacy in Australian law · Tourism in Australia

Images requested · Benjamin Benjamin Done Cheryl Kernot · MV Pacific Adventurer · Poppy King · Rosemary Goldie · James Moore · OneAustralia ·

Verification needed · Architecture of Australia · Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission · Australian performance poetry · FreeTV Australia · Hindmarsh Island Royal Commission · List of political controversies in Australia · Paul Wild Observatory · Punk rock in Australia ·


Quality watch:

RfC with widespread ramifications[edit]

Given our past experience of not knowing about RfCs with widespread ramifications, I draw this one to your attention: Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#RfC: Removing locally-defined links to Commons categories if they match the Wikidata sitelinks Kerry (talk) 23:30, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

thanks for that Kerry - the problem with RFC is that there is no obligation to notify or inform potential affected projects. JarrahTree 04:10, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Wikimedia Australia Community Conference, Sydney, 15 June 2019[edit]

Wikimedia Australia Community Conference

Keynote presenter: Ingrid Cumming, City of Canning. Ingrid was one of the key collaborators from Curtin University on the development of the Nyungar language Wikipedia and has brought that experience across to her role in community outreach enabling Wikimedia Australia collaboration with the City of Canning.

Registration: There is no registration cost. Please register via this link (or via email to contact at@ wikimedia.org.au) to facilitate catering and venue setup. If you would like to present a lightning talk please fill in the section during registration

Assistance: A limited grant is available to support travel costs for Wikimedia Australia members thorugh our Volunteer Support Programme. To apply, please check out the Volunteer Support Programme requirements, and email your application before Sat 25 May 2019 to be considered.

Getting there: Buses run regularly from Central railway station along Parramatta Road - alight at Ross St (no stairs) or the Footbridge stop (stairs).

Program: The programme is available here.

Partners: This community conference is made possible through partnership with The University of Sydney and the City of Canning.

Worlds of Wikimedia Conference 2019

The University of Sydney is also holding the Worlds of Wikimedia Conference 2019 from Wed 12 - Fri 14 June 2019. Check out the WOW2019 conference program - and the free registration.

Thanks also to our partners, the City of Canning for supporting our keynote presenter, Ingrid Cumming at both these events.

Pru Mitchell, President of Wikimedia Australia on behalf of the WMAU Committee - who can be reached at contact — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kerry Raymond (talkcontribs) 09:26, 15 May 2019 (UTC)


squatting[edit]

Hiya greetings from WikiProject: Squatting! Our two projects intersect mainly on two pages - Squatting in Australia which is mainly about contemporary occupations and the page currently called Squatting (pastoral) Squatting (Australia). The latter page is about the 19th century colonial landgrabs, it used to be called Squatting (pastoral), then Squatting (Australia), then Squattocracy, now Squatting (Australia) again. I think having two pages with such similar names isn't good and I'd be interested to hear some opinions on how to progress if anyone is interested. I put some thoughts at Talk:Squatting_(Australia)#Name_2. Cheers! Mujinga (talk) 09:15, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Historically so different, there is really no problem with the names from a part of Australia that didnt really suffer from the squattocracy JarrahTree 09:21, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
oh gosh apologies I meant the two pages are at the moment called Squatting (Australia) and Squatting in Australia Mujinga (talk) 09:27, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

I guess that both 19th and 21st century "squatting" is "...a person who is not the owner, taking possession of land...". Squattocracy is poor English, and possibly poorly defined. In some parts of Australia, it is possible that 19th-century pastoralists (on leased crown land) were still called "squatters" even when they had legal use of the land. Neither article appears to be in particularly good shape, nor a national perspective - a number of references I checked in Squatting (Australia) did not mention the word "squat" as they are about pastoralists on crown leases and freehold land (the Ellis reference is for the sale of 51,285 acres freehold and 34 square miles leasehold)[1]. Squatting in Australia has a few paragraphs linking to the other article, then talks about squats in Sydney and Melbourne (without defining a squat as anything other than a sitting posture with one's knees bent). --Scott Davis Talk 06:06, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

They're inevitably going to have similar names because they use exactly the same terms in real life. The "squattocracy" was a derogatory label for a particular wealthy subset of squatters, and the enthusiasm for that term purely because of its difference is coming from a couple of people with zero understanding of the subject; if it had an article at all and wasn't just a redirect, it'd be a different topic to Squatting (Australia). Squatter (pastoral) (a variant of where it was at forever to begin with) is the best name for the subject I can think of: if WikiProject Squatting hadn't decided to mess with articles about Australian pastoral history it'd still be there anyway. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:32, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
if you had only read prior discussions instead of jumping directly to attack mode then we might have been able to have a sensible debate Mujinga (talk) 15:04, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Prod/Merge[edit]

The two articles might not be on everyones watch list - however the potential fate of the two articles might be of interest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_immigration_detention_facilities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_immigration_detention_facilities

dont forget to vote! (If you are an Australian registered voter reading this on 18th May) JarrahTree 00:22, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Post-election[edit]

Should there be a change in government following today's election, there will be the usual onslaught of well-meaning but uninformed editors who want to immediately update Wikipedia to reflect a new government or PM, despite any such change requiring swearing-in by the GG. Should there be a new PM evident, he will be prime minister-designate, not prime minister-elect, until sworn-in. WWGB (talk) 06:23, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

People are already updating electoral article infoboxes on the basis of media “looks likely to win” reports We do not a single seat fully counted, yet alone declared by the electoral authorities. I’m rather concerned by this behaviour. We are WP:NOTNEWS. I guess it’s ok to write that someone is in the lead in the vote, citing media, but not to declare a winner.Kerry (talk) 11:23, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
We've always added results when the result is no longer in doubt - PM is from the date they're sworn in, but MP's terms start from the date of election. It's too early to be doing it just yet beyond the extremely obvious results (i.e. Steggall) but once tonight's counting is finished we can comfortably call all but a few lineball seats. Waiting for declarations is a pointless waste of time and invariably leads to out-of-date articles because the day after the election is when the editorial eyes are actually on these articles to do the necessarily million-and-one post-election updates. The Drover's Wife (talk) 12:07, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
MPs' terms start from the date of election - yes, but working back from an officially declared result. The Abbott article was being updated from even before results were in from all polling stations in the constituency, based on his own decision to concede - which, as a general rule, could be withdrawn (didn't Al Gore do that?). WP, as an encyclopedia, can report that he conceded, but he does not cease to be the member until a new member is declared. Wikiain (talk) 21:41, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Here is how votes are counted in an Australian federal election. Even for a single constituency ("division"), the result is never complete on election day. Wikiain (talk) 22:56, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
If the term starts from election day, and the result in that seat is in absolutely no doubt, there is no point delaying the work of updating articles so that editors have to go back and update hundreds of articles weeks later when everyone's moved on. That is a great way to get articles that wind up being years out of date because they got forgotten about after the election fuss had died down. The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:12, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
the result in that seat is in absolutely no doubt is a fallacy. Nothing is absolute. There is absolutely no doubt that Heather Hill was elected to the Senate by the people of Queensland at the 1998 election. I saw the results and I even congratulated her personally but her election was overturned by the courts. Wikipedia is not working to a deadline so articles don't have to be updated the instant that you think there is a result. If articles are years out of date, so be it. Look at the number of articles that still haven't been updated since the 2016 census. There are still 2,211 articles using {{Census 2011 AUS}} but it hasn't destroyed the world. --AussieLegend () 03:47, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
That is a nonsensical analogy because Hill was declared elected and then later overturned by the High Court due to s 44: if we were following that logic, we'd just never update articles for elected MPs until their retirement in case someone was invalidated due to s 44 later in their career. Let's not do that and do what we've done for nearly twenty years without major issue. I'd also note that none of the people who've responded apart from Kerry are users who ever actually do any of the work of updating articles post-election, but obviously it's fun for some people to throw their weight around. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:31, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
Whether or not you like the anology, it's absolutely true that nothing is absolute and Wikipedia is not working to a deadline, the latter being my main point. You don't need to rush off immediately to update articles. It's not going to hurt if you wait a while, or even if you never do it. --AussieLegend () 05:08, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
It's equally true that there's no harm in updating things as they happen rather than three years after the fact, with some obvious benefits. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:23, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
If Heather Hill was elected in the House of Representatives rather than the Senate, she would actually have been a sitting member until she was disqualified, and so the election day reporting would have been just as correct. The only thing to note here is that the senators elected yesterday don't take their seats until July, except those from the territories. If the ABC is saying that a certain person has been elected or defeated, we might as well update Wikipedia to reflect that. I would only agree that the margins and swings shouldn't be reported here until the declarations. I agree that it's not necessary to update articles the day after the election like I have done but saying that it's okay if the articles are years out of date is quite bizarre. Onetwothreeip (talk) 05:34, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
  • technically noone is elected until the AEC declare results to the GG for the lower house, and to the State Governors for Senate seats all of which must be done by 28th June. At that stage the PM must recall parliament in the case of minority government be able to prove he has the confidence of the parliament. Gnangarra 12:08, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
As a practical way forward, it's clear "official declaration" is probably waiting too long, but if we look at the AEC reporting, they appear to be satisfied with the outcome of all but 3 electorates which they call "close seats" (where the 2 party-preferred difference is less than 1%). I presume for all but the 3 "close" electorates, they know how many postal votes were issued for each electorate and how many are still outstanding and that this number is insufficient to alter the outcome. I think we could use the AEC "not close" electorates as a signal that we can update those articles, but hold off on the "close" ones (except of course to say that they are still undecided). Kerry (talk) 15:24, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Waiting until the declaration is useless to our readers, and I concur with the points made by The Drover's Wife and Onetwothreeip above. If we were waiting for the declaration, the seat tally would be 0-0-0 on the election page, and I hope we all agree that that is absurd. I would caution against using AEC alone as the deciding factor, since the "close seats" page is determined entirely by mathematics and doesn't take into account a number of things (exclusion order issues being the main one, and also seat-specific issues - remember Flynn in 2016, which had the kind of margin that you'd normally count as settled, but it is known for a particularly strong LNP lean in post-count which indeed changed the result, so the AEC wasn't listing it in doubt while the psephs were). A combination of AEC, ABC and other analysts (Bonham, Raue, Bowe) seems like the sensible way forward. Frickeg (talk) 21:20, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
That alas seems to hang between the devil of WP:NOTNEWS and the deep of WP:OR, and to be liable to produce ephemeral arguments depending on what is taken into account and with what weight etc etc. However, it does seem clear that we must avoid presenting projections as if they were results. Seeing that this was happening in Coalition (Australia), where AEC projected figures were appearing in the infobox as if they were firm results—and then (obscurely) as "TBD" in a table below—I've annotated them in the infobox with the ref for each house: "AEC projection, 20 May 2019". These figures can be updated as they change, together with the date, and then the ref removed when all results for that house have been declared. Wikiain (talk) 23:11, 20 May 2019 (UTC) CORRECTION: I've so annotated the House figure, in the infobox and the table; for the Senate figure in the info box, which could not be left blank (and it isn't given in the table), I've put the ref "media estimate" (unsourced, but very temporary). Wikiain (talk) 22:55, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Worst example of pre-emptive editing Í've seen so far are the "updates" to Senators who may (but may not) lose their seats such as Fraser Anning to claim they "lost their seat on 18 May", notwithstanding that these Senators' terms will not end until 30 June 2019. --Canley (talk) 00:16, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Shorten and Labor.[edit]

We need more attention on the Bill Shorten and Australian Labor Party articles. A mobile editor keeps editing in that Shorten is no longer the Labor party leader. GoodDay (talk) 00:02, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Both semi-protected for a week until things settle down. Stephen 00:25, 20 May 2019 (UTC)