Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)

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The idea lab section of the village pump is a place where new ideas or suggestions on general Wikipedia issues can be incubated, for later submission for consensus discussion at Village pump (proposals). Try to be creative and positive when commenting on ideas.
Before creating a new section, please note:

Before commenting, note:

  • This page is not for consensus polling. Stalwart "Oppose" and "Support" comments generally have no place here. Instead, discuss ideas and suggest variations on them.
  • Wondering whether someone already had this idea? Search the archives below, and look through Wikipedia:Perennial proposals.
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Mass create redirects of abbreviations[edit]

On Wikipedia I have often created redirects from abbreviations I observed in real life, often abbreviations of U.S. states I see in the media (example: Anywheresville, Tx.)

In Tokyo I noticed that the subway stations are all using the abbreviation "XXX Sta." or "XXX sta." on English signage. Creation of multiple redirects collectively takes a long time, and many editing hours would be saved if an editor writes a bot to do mass creation of redirects like these:

  • XXX Univ. (and variants like "Univ") for universities
  • XXX, U.S. or Canadian state abbreviation (like Houston, TX or Houston, Tx.) for U.S. and Canadian cities
  • XXX HS for senior high schools (Lamar HS)
  • XXX Sta. (and sta.) for railway stations, like Shinjuku Sta.)

WhisperToMe (talk) 00:53, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

If memory serves (and it may not; I'm sick, and my brain melts at low temperatures), User:Headbomb did similar work with academic journal abbreviations, and therefore might be able to help you figure out whether it's a good idea. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:13, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Awesome! I would appreciate getting his advice WhisperToMe (talk) 02:17, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Sounds like a useful proposal, but individual classes of redirects need to be carefully thought out first. For example, is there a danger that Foobar, NC, a redirect for the town of Foobar in North Carolina, might not be confused for a village of the same name in South Africa's Northern Cape province, or that Foo, CA might be ambiguous between places in California and in Canada. (I'm admitting these examples are contrived – inasmuch as I don't know if such abbreviations are commonly used in this way in Canada or South Africa, and the chances for such coincidences are generally low – but they're illustrative of the potential for ambiguities that need to be explored.)
    Also, it's a good idea to be parsimonious: for example, don't create both XXX Univ. and XXX Univ – for a variety of reasons (some of which are documented at WP:COSTLY), redirects incur a maintenance cost over the long term and it is best to only create as many redirects as are strictly necessary. – Uanfala (talk) 14:58, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
    • @Uanfala: 1. The part about not wanting to get tied into ambiguous place names sense, and I imagine part of it comes down to using Regex skillfully and part adding a routine a bot that checks what the destination article would be before writing the redirect?
    • 2. As for the bit about creating redirects, I have created both "XXX Univ. and XXX Univ" because of issues with Wikimedia's searching capabilities. Perhaps if they improve it will become less necessary? Also my understanding is that bots make redirect maintenance (often) less necessary as, if the destination article changes location, bots will later retarget all the redirects. **WhisperToMe (talk) 14:44, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Visual change the appearance of user pages compared to regular pages[edit]

Title. When you click to a user page it's still confusing to me, and I assume to regular users, to differentiate immediately between an official edited page and a user page. I think that something very simple like a slightly darker gray background to user pages would be worlds more helpful for every party. Pretty simple suggestion. Kugihot (talk) 19:39, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

At the very top left you should see in big bold letters the title of the page. If it just says some article topic, like Plato, then it's an article. I'm not sure what an "official edited page" is, but if it says "Wikipedia:" with the colon and something follows that - it's a wiki policy, guideline, essay, noticeboard etc.. Example: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard or Wikipedia:Village pump (technical), if it starts with "User:" , like [[User:Kugihot]] then it's a user page. Hope that helps. — Ched (talk) 20:10, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

A slightly darker grey background might make user pages difficult to read. At the top of the user pages there is a note saying user pages are user pages. Vorbee (talk) 06:21, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Adding the following to your User:YourNameHere/common.css will change the background color of the left and bottom panes of user and user talk pages to the specified color:
[class*="page-User_"] { background-color: #BFFFFF; }
Unfortunately, it will also change the color of pages in article namespace that start with "User ", like User interface. (edited) —[AlanM1(talk)]— 16:21, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
Update: I missed the fact that there are classes for each namespace, named "ns-x", where x is the namespace number from WP:namespace. So, this is better/faster and eliminates the problem with mainspace pages starting with "User ":
.ns-2 { background-color: #BFFFFF; }
To affect multiple namespaces, use a comma-separated list:
.ns-4, .ns-5 { background-color: #E0FFE0; }
—[AlanM1(talk)]— 17:20, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Anyone who is interested in this idea: Please put mw:Talk pages project on your watchlist. One of the projects might be making "talk" pages (all of them, not just article talk pages) visual different from other pages, so that it's more obvious that you should treat those differently (e.g., sign your comments on a talk page, but don't sign in the middle of articles). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:11, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Enhanced sourcecode listings for articles[edit]

A new method of including source code in articles, for informational purposes, could be useful. I implemented a quick sketch at my sandbox showing what could be done. What I'd like to see is a easy way to, for example, mark source-code that intentionally does not compile, or link source-code and it's outputs together in one section cleanly. Alongside this, some way for users to 'try out' the code in their browser would be a welcome addition (In the demo, I used tio.run for this purpose.). I'm hoping to flesh out this idea, as it could allow Wikipedia to further improve it's articles on programming languages (Rust, C++), processors (Zilog Z80, MOS Technology 6502), and mathematics (Mandelbrot_set#Computer_drawings). — Preceding unsigned comment added by MoonyTheDwarf (talkcontribs) 00:42, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Experimental inclusion into C++ article in draft space.. Looks rather good, actually. Draft:C++/codebox_experiment MoonyTheDwarf (Braden N.) (talk) 16:40, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Experimentally deployed at article Lua (programming language). Looks good. Gonna roll out TIO links in a moment.. MoonyTheDwarf (Braden N.) (talk) 19:40, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Note for others watching this: the "some way for users to 'try out' the code" (TIO links) bit has been questioned at Template talk:CodeBox#External links, with discussion now at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Codebox. Anomie 12:19, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Proposal for a way to highlight spoken articles that need to be updated/re-recorded[edit]

There appear to be many articles that were recorded as spoken articles many years ago where the pages have likely changed significantly since and need re-recording. I think there should be a way to highlight this (perhaps like the update template for articles, but a spoken language template variant). For example the spoken article for the Avril Lavigne page has not been updated in over 9 years. I have posted this at Wikipedia talk:Spoken articles but had little response. Helper201 (talk) 17:04, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

@Helper201: "length of time" may not be the best measure for triggering a "this should be re-recorded" - perhaps number of revisions? If something repeatable could be decided on a bot job could be made that would periodically check all the pages with recordings, see if the condition was met, and then add some identifier (e.g. Category:Spoken articles in need of updating. — xaosflux Talk 15:43, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: Number of revisions sounds reasonable on first glance. However, how would a bot determine the signicance of these edits? For example a page may have had 100+ edits the vast majority of which are simply grammar and minor fixes and additions or trivial inclusions. Whereas another page may have had say 20 edits of more signicance.
I think it is reasonable to conclude that after a number of years most articles have changed fairly significantly. Perhaps the bot could tag all pages that were recorded 5+ years ago and have not been updated since. Most pages will have changed quite significantly in this time. However your proposal could be worked on and used instead or as well as this. The identifier Category:Spoken articles in need of updating sounds good to me. Helper201 (talk) 17:41, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
@Helper201: That could be done, the parameters could be adjustable. To get this going, create the new category and have a chat with anyone watching Wikipedia talk:Spoken articles / Wikipedia talk:Spoken articles. Once ready, drop a note at WP:BOTREQ and someone will probably take that up for you, it's not a "hard" bot task, and this would only update "metadata" type of information so should be a fairly easy bot approval. It wouldn't need to run constantly, maybe once a month or so. The hard part is probably going to be what comes next - are there people ready to work on actually re-recording the articles? — xaosflux Talk 17:51, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Why is Wikipedia non-profit?[edit]

why don't we run ads at the top or bottom of articles?--SharabSalam (talk) 09:18, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Two different questions. But the answer is: Because we decided it this way, for a variety of reason. With respect to the second question: Without ads we are not beholden to advertisers. And we do not piss off users. And we waste less bandwidth. And we make the site more performant. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:25, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
I thought that if we run ads, Wikimedia wouldn't be non-profit. I think if we added ads at the bottom of the article it wouldn't piss off users. Editors can also earn part of the money Wikimedia gets from the ads. That would be very helpful to editors who are editing here for free. Yesterday I watched an interview with an editor here who had made 1/4 or 3/4 (I don't remember) of what is in Wikipedia and when the interviewer asked him how much money he earns from this, he said none!. Isn't that very disappointing?--SharabSalam (talk) 09:43, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Non-profits can earn money, they just cannot make a profit (at least not one that is distributed to its principals, or that goes beyond its non-profit purpose). Adding ads would sure piss me off (and I'm a user). I'm sure others would share that sentiment. I doubt that there is an editor who made 1/4 or 3/4 or indeed any reasonable fraction of what is in Wikipedia, although we do have some very prolific contributors. Many of us who donate time to the project do so because it is a non-profit. Why should I give my work to a commercial entity? Unless they pay my going rate, which would be very hard to recoup with ads...at least when applied to all editors. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:02, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Most likely, the OP refers to the editor who was reported to have touched one-third of the articles on en-wiki. Clearly the OP didn't retain much more than the headline. ―Mandruss  03:59, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
According to CBS, as long as I make an edit to every article, I am responsible for the entire Wikipedia. –xenotalk 06:55, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Looking at that piece of journalism, the non-English Wikipedias have "millions of translated article", which would leave very few original ones. Maybe I should tell the people on de: ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:26, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
It would cease to be a free encyclopedia if it were run for profit and running ads results in the inevitable influence of advertisers on content (and other) policies. Wikipedia has been strict about conflicts of interest since forever, so I am sure there would be consensus against this if it was proposed - perhaps it has been in the past, not sure. Quora is a website which thinks it's a "competitor" of Wikipedia but is run for profit and has most of its modus operandi dictated by its advertising partners. In any case, even if the WMF did make money from advertisements on Wikipedia I doubt they would share any of it with the editors. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 10:02, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
It's not disappointing at all. There are many other reasons to create works than the profit motive. SportingFlyer T·C 11:23, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Allowing advertising on Wikipedia has been debated in the past (see Wikipedia:Funding Wikipedia through advertisements). The community of editors has consistently and strongly opposed advertising on Wikipedia, and I doubt that will change any time in the foreseeable future. - Donald Albury 13:23, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Non-profit because it shields from liability .....all because of Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act.--Moxy 🍁 03:42, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
I would say that this is a for-fun kind of thing, not a money-making scheme. Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:40, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
It isn't the non-profit status of the Wikimedia Foundation that allows it to avail itself of section 230 (Internet service providers and Internet search engine companies, for example, benefit from its protections). It's the lack of editorial control on its part, thereby assuring that the "information content provider" (as described in section 230) remains the Wikipedia users. isaacl (talk) 18:38, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Advertising implies tracking. How else would the advertisers be sure their advert has been delivered as many times as they're paying for? That in turn means violating the privacy of your IP address and your off-wiki identity which you were guaranteed when you signed up - Wikipedia:Why create an account? -- Cabayi (talk) 10:25, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
I would suggest that perhaps Wikipedia should in fact allow some advertising. we are one of the top websites worldwide after all. there's no reason it should be so hard for Wikipedia to obtain enough funding to operate smoothly.--Sm8900 (talk) 13:05, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
The Bible should have advertisements. The Bible is one of the top books in the world. Why not add some advertisements in every copy? No reason not to. Buddhist monks should have ads on their foreheads. Encyclopaedia Britannica should have a page of ads every ten pages. Merriam Webster should have thirty pages of ads at the back. All that wasted ad space on the sides of the Kaaba! Gravestones too! (actually I have seen a discrete ad on a gravestone) Hell, add adverstisements on the dollar bills! That would be awesome. Jails should be sponsored. "Bud Light Correctional Help Center" Your name should be an advertisement man- go change it. If you don't change your name to Dick Microsoft, you have wasted an economic opportunity. That's my opinion~~haha Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:22, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Pepsi Cola Mars Organic Molecule Analyser Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:45, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Geographyinitiative, why are Pepsi sponsoring something already sponsored by Mars? Cabayi (talk) 14:18, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
The sad thing is that we already accept advertising, we just don't charge for it. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:07, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Large chunks of Wikipedia are already advertising. We have some companies’ entire product lines covered. We have navigation templates for many product lines. For example, we have a better catalogue of Microsoft products than Microsoft.com. Levivich 06:21, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
Money is the root of all evil. End. ―Mandruss  17:52, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
I would suggest the OP to look at the history of Enciclopedia Libre - when even the slightest hint of ads came, the userbase of ESwiki rebelled and made a fork. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:21, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

I have a feeling that discussion on whether Wikipedia should allow adverts. is already covered at Wikipedia: Perennial_proposals. Vorbee (talk) 18:46, 16 October 2019 (UTC) It is - it covered at Section 1.4 of this. Vorbee (talk) 18:51, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Mobile version diffs[edit]

Hi, so why isn't there a way to undo changes from the diffs in mobile version like the desktop version? I think if we add a button for undo next to thanks button it would be great. Most editors use mobiles while editing including me! I have to switch to desktop version if I need to revert.--SharabSalam (talk) 09:22, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

@SharabSalam: reliable, consistent code just hasn't been developed yet - but you can try using or forking a userscript for this, such as meta:User:FR30799386/undo. — xaosflux Talk 15:46, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Xaosflux, I used that tool before, it was awesome. I stopped using it because the editor who made it got blocked (I think indefinitely) from English Wikipedia. I fear that they might use it to compromise editors accounts. I don't know how codes in Wikipedia work. Do you think it is safe?--SharabSalam (talk) 07:34, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
@SharabSalam: I'd have to spend a little time reviewing it, but you can always fork it once you have a version that you think is safe (copy paste it to your own userspace) - you would not gain future "improvements" but you would not be subject to arbitrary changes. — xaosflux Talk 11:09, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Done! Thank you so much for your support.--SharabSalam (talk) 11:36, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
@SharabSalam: You can undo/rollback changes on mobile if you enable mw:AMC mode on your device. – Ammarpad (talk) 06:38, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Anti-Vandalism Tools and Edit Conflicts[edit]

Some Wikipedians use Anti-Vandalism tools like Twinkle to make reverting easier and faster. These tools can also leave custom warnings on others' talk pages. However, I noticed that a few times, I edit-conflicted others, even those using tools. Then, even though the operator was edit-conflicted, the system will still leave a message on a talk page, even though the person did not revert. Take a look at this diff for an example. I reverted the previous edit, edit-conflicting Serols (who I am inviting to this discussion), who uses Huggle, in the process. I was going to leave a message on the talk page, but he already left a message. My idea to prevent something like this is to have the code in the tool detect when there is an edit conflict, and will not warn the user as a result. I cannot wait for your thoughts. Thanks for reading, and please comment on this. --LPS and MLP Fan (Littlest Pet Shop) (My Little Pony) 21:40, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

@LPS and MLP Fan: I believe Twinkle will open the user warning form for you only after the revert has been performed (successfully). This is the ideal behaviour. I am not familiar with the other tools but if there are issues with them please raise it on the tool's talk page such as at Wikipedia:Huggle/Feedback. SD0001 (talk) 16:54, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

US Presidential succession[edit]

Hello all. According to United States presidential line of succession#Next in line, there have been thirty-five separate periods during which there was no Vice President who would have assumed office if the office of the President of the US became vacant. I added information about this to the infobox on Andrew Jackson's page ([1]) (as well as US Grant, LBJ, Nixons and Ford's pages, but some of those were reverted). What do you think of the note that I added to the Jackson page? Should all/some of these thirty five instances be documented in this way? Thanks for any comments. (Some discussion of this issue has already taken page on the LBJ talk page). Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:22, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Change in print stylesheet[edit]

When you print a page (or use the print stylesheet by any other means), the URL of external links are appended within parentheses after the link (as customary in print stylesheets). Since Wikipedia by nature has a lot of interwiki links, I would suggest that even those links have the URL appended. That would help tremendously in finding those link targets, because not every interwiki link's text is the same as its target.

Example:

The page Entity Framework has in its first paragraph an interwiki link to Visual Studio. When this section is printed, that link will only be underscored.

In the same History section, the second last paragraph, there is an external link to Entity Framework 6's Github repository. When this is printed, that link will be underscored with the URL appended, like this:

   GitHub (https://github.com/aspnet/EntityFramework)

//End example.

I realise that one big downside with implementing interwiki links in the print stylesheet the way I proposed, is that some pages have a lot of interwiki links and those pages would get cluttered very quickly when printed. Could a compromise be that there is a toggle in user settings on whether or not you want interwiki URLs to be visible?

Oliver twistor (talk) 12:48, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Idea development help needed: Preventing WP:PRIMARYTOPIC from being used as a shield to perpetuate androcentrism[edit]

Below is my draft proposal. I would appreciate as much feedback as possible:


WP:PRIMARYTOPIC should not be used as a shield to perpetuate androcentrism.

Okay, I may have lost a few of you there. First, let me explain what I mean by this, then I'll explain how I envisage this rule tweak being used in practice. Per the [Wikipedia article on the topic: ‘Androcentrism is the practice, conscious or otherwise, of placing a masculine point of view at the centre of one’s world view, culture, and history, thereby marginalising femininity’. The essay, WP:WAW, sums it up as ‘language and images that make male the "Self" and female the “other”’. The essay goes on to advise: ‘Avoid labelling a woman as a female author or female politician, unless her gender is explicitly relevant to the article […] Linguists call [the practice] markedness. Treating a man who is a writer as a "writer" and a woman as a "woman writer" presents women as "marked", or the Other, requiring an adjective to differentiate them from the male default’.

Wikipedia article naming policy, however, can occasionally perpetuate (and entrench) such practices. A recent example comes courtesy of a requested page move, which I submitted, seeking to make the England national football team page a disambiguation page, with article currently given that title moved to ‘England men’s national football team’. Another editor, User:Jopal22, suggested “England football team (men’s senior)”. In truth, the new name of the article wouldn’t be of much incidence, so far as it didn’t show men as the ‘default’ gender, with women marginalised.

However, a common response arose. Wikipedia policy on the naming of articles, primarily WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, was used to justify the continued marginalisation of women. Though arguments were made (by myself and others) against the men’s team’s page being any more ‘primary’ than the women’s team, this argument was not persuasive, and no positive consensus was reached. If the wording of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC was amended, Wikipedia would recognise that there is no default gender, with WP:NOPRIMARY then applying. My suggestion is to amend the final paragraph of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as follows:

In most cases, the topic that is primary with respect to usage is also primary with respect to long-term significance; in many other cases, only one sense of primacy is relevant. In a few cases, there is some conflict between a topic of primary usage (Apple Inc.) and one of primary long-term significance (Apple). In such a case, consensus may be useful in determining which topic, if any, is the primary topic. If a gender qualifier is required to disambiguate one topic from another, it must be mirrored in any corresponding articles (e.g. United States men's national soccer team and United States women's national soccer team, rather than United States national soccer team and United States women’s national soccer team). — Proposed changes in bold.

This small change would help us take a big step towards preventing the marginalisation, the marking, and the othering of women on Wikipedia. We must recognise the harm that Wikipedia does, not only by failing to challenge androcentrism, but by actively perpetuating it. Note: User:LtPowers raised this eight years ago, but I’m not sure it’s been raised since. See here for the discussion that generated at the time. Domeditrix (talk) 20:48, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

This isn't a terrible idea in a vacuum, but I don't think it has any chance of going anywhere in the context of Wikipedia. The general principle is that except in extreme cases, Wikipedia follows general practice; it doesn't try to set it. Moreover, when you frame this in terms of "marginalizing women" and start using dog whistles like "marked" and "othering", I think you're setting yourself up to fail. This sort of approach will undoubtedly alienate a lot of people. And in any case, I think the ultimate problem is with PRIMARYTOPIC. It's vague, and people can often insert their own biases when invoking it. But trying to carve out an exception (even a noble one) for one case is potentially going to lead to many more exceptions being (or at least attempting to be) carved out. And I think that's going to make a lot of people squeamish as well. But that's just me, and others might disagree. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 21:12, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
I have a few things to say around this, so will respond a bit more later. But on the whole this is an issue that keeps coming up and it does need clearer guidance in wikipedia across articles. At the moment we are slowly getting messy wikipedia pages like Template:England national football team, where the topic title links to the mens team, but the contents are a mixture of mens/womens/other. But one thing I would say is if it wasn't painful to discuss it in talk pages, I don't think the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC does stop us using the names “England football team (men’s senior)” and “England football team (women’s senior)” as I suggested. The PRIMARYTOPIC is build on what you'd get back when you search for a subject, including wikipedia page views...but the answer to that also depends on when you search. The popularity of these articles is cyclical and if you look at https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&start=2019-03-26&end=2019-10-16&pages=England_national_football_team%7CEngland_women%27s_national_football_team you will see that undeniably (and this will be in the media too), that the PRIMARYTOPIC could be applied to the womens team for a period, as it was way more popular during the womens world cup. So the argument that there is a clear PRIMARYTOPIC is false. Therefore is might be better if we look to change wikipedia policy to change PRIMARYTOPIC to have the caveat that it must be consistently primary to not need clarification. Also be careful not to come across as WP:RGW in your reasoning for wanting to changes, as there will be big push back on that Jopal22 (talk) 21:57, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
I think there are a lot of interesting ideas here. In particular, one way to circumvent this could be to incorporate language from Wikipedia:Writing about women#Male is not the default. There is policy for this elsewhere, it just isn't articulated explicitly in PRIMARYTOPIC. SiliconRed (talk) 22:42, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
Just noting, that Wikipedia:Writing about women#Male is not the default is not wikipedia policy, it is a WP:ESSAY. i.e. Essays have no official status, and do not speak for the Wikipedia community as they may be created and edited without overall community oversight. Following the instructions or advice given in an essay is optional. Jopal22 (talk) 07:28, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
  • I'm against Domeditrix's version of this, primarily on the grounds of Wikipedia not being designed to try to drive change. It would probably be positive if the media did this (and then us), but I don't want us to have to spend huge amounts of time considering and then defending various attempts to push the public into certain behaviour as if we do this a strong case can be made for other changes being needed. Nosebagbear (talk)
I do, however, think there might be something for Jopal22's idea that PRIMARYTOPIC should include the caveat "consistently primary to not need clarification". I'm not sure where we'd draw the line on consistently (if one group is the primary topic 358 days a year, that would probably be sufficient), but I don't believe it's so damned to vagueness to be ruled out on those grounds. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:35, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
A few things I would challenge
  • Just because something has a female identify does not mean the mirror is "mens". For instance The Open Championship, World Snooker Championship and PDC World Darts Championship have female versions, but the "mirror" version is non gendered and can include women. For instance I wouldn't want Reanne Evans to be changed from This made her the first woman ever to win a World Championship match to This made her the first woman ever to win a Men's World Championship match as if she is competing somewhere she doesn't belong. So I would caveat "mirror" to being backed up by the governing body.
  • With things like Manchester United Football Club and Manchester United Women Football Club this are is still messy. The Football Club includes both mens and womens teams so there should theoretically an article called Manchester United Football Club with Manchester United (men's team) and Manchester United (women's team) subarticles like American college sports (e.g. Kansas Jayhawks). But this is where I back up the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Nearly everyone looking at Manchester United Football Club would expect to see it dominated by the mens team/history (womens team has only been around a couple of year). Also given growth of womens football is relatively new, the goal post are moving about how they frame things e.g. changing it from framing as Manchester United Women Football Club to Manchester United Football Club Women. Therefore I think it would be overkill and far too soon to look at altering football club articles. (especially as Man U refer to them as the "First Team" and "Women's team - wikipedia follows the conventions used by the media and governing bodies and does not try push a progressive viewpoint without this)
  • Where it should be quite clear is things like 2020 ICC T20 World Cup being renamed as 2020 ICC Men's T20 World Cup (just look at the logo in the same page!)
Therefore I would look for two changes to primary topic. a) If there is cyclicality for primary topic then we should treat as no primary and disambiguate. b) If the official name or governing body references gender to disambiguate it competitions, then wikipedia should too.
Jopal22 (talk) 14:54, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
I most often get the conclusion or argument in many such male gender tournament or team cases that, it is in-consistent with the other articles , which often create chaos. Today all federation and council of sports are bringing disambiguation in their tournaments. As suggested above by Jopal22, Wikipedia policies should be reformed accordingly, as in recent cases it can be seen that the article name of the tournament is inconsistent with the logo of the tournamnet itself rather than all other previous editions of tournament. And most important point which should be addressed, wikipedia always believe in providing citations and sources, so when all citations show gender disambiguation, why the articles are ambiguous in nature. I think its high time that this things should be addressed. And more than that such a change is not new, many more articles are being created disambiguously like that of Men's Hockey World Cup, 2019 FIVB Volleyball Men's Nations League, 2020 Men's World Ice Hockey Championships, NCAA Division I men's swimming and diving championships and almost all article related to athletics. My simple logic and idea is- If any board, council, federation and authority addressing name of their tournament, competition, meets and even team in a disambiguous way, distinguishing "Men's" from "Women's" and all sources indicating the same, then Wikipedia should also be created with the same official name.Dey subrata (talk) 19:29, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
@Dey subrata: - I guess your fun next task with "If any board, council, federation and authority addressing name of their tournament, competition, meets and even team in a disambiguous way, distinguishing "Men's" from "Women's" and all sources indicating the same" is where the official name gets changed but the sources stick with common usage and don't usually/ever call it by the changed name Nosebagbear (talk) 22:59, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
This is, incidentally, the issue with the England national football team article. The English Football Association website references the "Men's Senior" and "Women's Senior" teams. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME have been used to prevent any name change to the article of the men's team reflecting this. Domeditrix (talk) 23:13, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
@Domeditrix: and @Nosebagbear: See if we think every board or federation will do same at a time, it will never happen, so is with the source. There are 100s of games and sports and 1000s of tournaments. It will never happen instantaneously. So our move here will be to change things step by step. Like for example now ICC (cricket council) started to distinguish Men's tournament from Women's tournament, they start it from 2020 ICC Men's T20 World Cup and 2020 ICC Women's T20 World Cup bringing disambiguation. The most interesting thing with it is all major or popular website of cricket are also disambiguously displaying names of tournament and Men's record and Women's record separately. Even ICC too have shown record separately now. Some sports already did are "Hockey" and "Athletics". So I think we need to take one sports at a time and change wikipedia articles accordingly. Otherwise if we wait for all sports to bring disambiguation, it will never gonna happen. Dey subrata (talk) 23:55, 20 October 2019 (UTC)