Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 160

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Misaligned table cell lines

This has been bugging me for a while. I have noticed that, in a number of wikitables, some cells do not accurately align with adjacent cells. In other words, the bottom line of a particular cell may appear 1px below the bottom line of the cell adjacent to it. Is this a browser issue or a Wikipedia one? FWIW I'm using Internet Explorer 11.--Nevéselbert 02:14, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

@Neve-selbert: Examples please. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:52, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
@Redrose64: I created a task at Phabricator T178005, which was declined for lack of information apparently.--Nevéselbert 17:10, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
It's almost certainly a browser issue, although there's a slight chance there's broken CSS somewhere. Anomie 18:00, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
It sounds likely to just be a browser issue in certain circumstances but you didn't post the page name and also failed to do it here. I have never seen the issue in Firefox. You should follow Aklapper's advice and make reproducible reports. The page name you are posting about is an absolute minimum. I found it at List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom#Since 1721 after some searching but I really shouldn't have to do that. I cannot reproduce it in Internet Explorer 11.608.15063.0 on Windows 10. Details like zoom level, font size and window size can affect browser rendering. I did notice a similar issue with vertical borders around merged cells sometimes differing by a pixel in IE 11. I guess the browser uses a system with "local" cell border calculations without ensuring the table gets globally consistent borders. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:29, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Might it have something to do with the skin I'm using? I use WP:MONOBOOK.--Nevéselbert 19:42, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
@Neve-selbert: Is it List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom#Since 1721? There's a lot of rowspan= going on there. Maybe one of them is miscounted; you also need to avoid "disappearing" rows, as here:
Row 1, col 1, default size Row 1-2, col 2, 2 rows deep
Row 2-3, col 1, 2 rows deep
Row 3, col 2, default size
That's a three-row table, but in some browsers it may appear to have just two rows. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:18, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes it is the list of British prime ministers. I should note that, when I enable Compatibility View, the lines correctly align. Strange.--Nevéselbert 20:23, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Many things might affect a small rendering detail like this. Skin could be one of them but I don't see the problem in MonoBook and IE11 with or without Compatibility View. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:45, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Checked again, the lines no longer align in Compatibility View. I have tried tweaking the settings in Internet options but to no avail. @PrimeHunter: Which operating system are you using to run Internet Explorer 11? This might be a Windows 8 problem.--Nevéselbert 02:07, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
I have Windows 10 as said above. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:12, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Redrose64: Do you know whether it would be possible to force table cell lines to align? Thanks in advance.--Nevéselbert 15:25, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Do you think is a Windows 8 problem? If so, I'll try to upgrade as soon as I can.--Nevéselbert 16:13, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
I think it depends on the browser and not the Windows version. As mentioned, I see a similar issue with vertical borders in IE11 on Windows 10. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:27, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
If they're in the same row, they must align. If they're not aligning, they can't be in the same row. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:22, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
To be clear Redrose64, the issue here is pixel alignment. I don't think rows have anything to do with it.--Nevéselbert 22:17, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
PrimeHunter is right, this is a browser issue, more specifically an Internet Explorer issue. I was able to get my hands on Windows 10 yesterday and the lines aligned perfectly in Edge, but not in Internet Explorer 11.--Nevéselbert 00:47, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


To save vertical space, is it possible to put two Egyptian hieroglyphs in Template:Hiero side by side, similar to the default placing in Template:Multiple image? I know it's possible via <hiero> </hiero>, but in that case it would give an impression of a single word or phrase, which is sometimes undesirable. Brandmeistertalk 12:36, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Some caption
Does not look so. What do you need? Cannot something custom like this(→) be used? --ᛒᚨᛊᛖ (ᛏᚨᛚᚲ) 23:04, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Yep, should work, thanks. Brandmeistertalk 07:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

IP was somehow able to edit a semi-protected page

This article was semi-protected by Samsara at 04:07 UTC today. Five minutes later, an IP address somehow was able to edit the page despite semi-protection having been applied before they edited. —MRD2014 Talk • Edits • Help! 15:01, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

The logs appear to indicate that pending changes protection was applied, meaning that registered editors can see live edits even before they have been moderated/accepted, but they should see them in a separate section of the history until they are reverted/accepted (WP:PEND for more details). —PaleoNeonate – 15:36, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
It was also semi-protected at the same time, as seen in the logs (the times are in Eastern Time):
  • 00:07, 15 October 2017 Samsara (talk | contribs) configured pending changes settings for Motu Patlu [Auto-accept: require "autoconfirmed" permission] (Persistent disruptive editing: via RfPP) (hist)
  • 00:07, 15 October 2017 Samsara (talk | contribs) protected Motu Patlu [Edit=Require autoconfirmed or confirmed access] (expires 23:07, 14 November 2017) [Move=Require autoconfirmed or confirmed access] (expires 23:07, 14 November 2017) (Persistent disruptive editing: via RfPP) (hist)
MRD2014 Talk • Edits • Help! 16:39, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
No, it was first semi-protected, and then pending changes protected (but very close together). Christian75 (talk) 18:10, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
But I can not edit it as IP-user. So you are right, it seems very stange that the IP could edit the article. Nothing has changed since the IPs edit. Christian75 (talk) 18:13, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
It may be that the IP began editing just before the page was protected and was allowed to save edit. Ruslik_Zero 19:51, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
I tried doing that, and my anon browser was disallowed from saving the edit. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 03:08, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

IPBE and autoblocks

I was under the impression that IPBE allowed you to edit through autoblocks as well as through hardblocked IPs, and also I was under the impression that admins had IPBE by default. Which of those statements is wrong? Trying to find MediaWiki:Autoblockedtext, I decided to get it directly, so I blocked my alt account, logged out, logged into it, tried to edit (and got the you-have-been-blocked message), logged out, got the autoblocked message, logged into my main account — and I was autoblocked! The message said Editing from Nyttend backup has been blocked..., as if I were still logged into the alt. I thus posted a request with {{unblock-auto}}, and after a few minutes User:Floquenbeam came along and resolved the situation. The biggest annoyance here, moreover, is that as I was autoblocked from editing any pages other than my talk, I couldn't unblock my alt account, so I ended up being unable to undo my own block; when you post an unblock template, it looks rather silly to have the link to the blocking admin's page be black because the unblock is posted on the blocking admin's talk page :-)

So where did I go wrong? As an admin, shouldn't I be able to edit through an autoblock? I've been able to do that in the past; see [1]. Several years ago, I tried to use my alt account to edit from a public computer, but I found that it was autoblocked, so I used the main account to request IPBE for the alt (I didn't get autoblocked), and once someone gave me IPBE for the alt, I went back to using it and didn't have further problems. That was almost eight years ago; did we have some sort of software change that takes IPBE away from the basic admin rights package? Nyttend (talk) 22:43, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

@Nyttend: It sounds like you possibly hit a cookie block, which is different then a normal IP block. — xaosflux Talk 22:50, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) According to Special:ListGroupRights, admins are exempted from IP blocks (search for ipblock-exempt, given to admins, bots and users with the IP block exemption user right). Also, the page states that this user right exempts the user from autoblocks.
The user right torunblocked, which allows you to edit using Tor (anonymity network), is apparently only given to those who are specifically given the IP block exemption user right: admins and bots can't use Tor by default. --Stefan2 (talk) 22:53, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Hm, cookie block; I figured those simply were another means of assigning autoblock, i.e. it's a normal autoblock that detects you by means of a cookie, not by means of your IP address. I wasn't using Tor; it was just the public wireless network at Wendy's #2834, which uses Comcast IP Nyttend (talk) 23:07, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
It could be that it was a cookie block, especially if you were using the same browser. See also phab:T5233. This may need some more experimenting. Generally it will be the same "person" that would be impacted by a cookie block, so being autoblock exempt (which is designed to prevent collateral damage for DHCP and rangeblocks) doesn't quite apply. — xaosflux Talk 00:30, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, it was the same browser. So I could have just closed the browser and logged in with another one? That didn't occur to me. Also, what's DHCP? WP:DHCP is red. And finally, is it intentional that you can't do things like blocks and protections when you're blocked? It seems rather pointless, since as a security measure it's not useful (a rogue admin can always unblock himself and continue to make mayhem until he's desysopped), and any kind of tool usage when you're blocked will get you in big trouble anyway, unless, like here, you're testing; it seems silly that removing a block that I myself had set would be impossible as long as I didn't get desysopped. Nyttend (talk) 00:36, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
PS, of course I know that this is a rare (and silly) situation, so I understand if fixing the problems I've identified here isn't considered to be worth the effort. Nyttend (talk) 00:44, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
DHCP = DHCP (Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol), a way of assigning an IP address for you when your computer connects to the Internet. --Stefan2 (talk) 00:50, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, of course, the important thing is that important things such as deleting and protecting don't have to be bundled in with block (and more importantly unblockself). Therefore, the easiest way to deal with abusive accounts/problems in general is to simply block the user and not worry about handling rights in the short term. Of course, here on WP that doesn't really apply. -- The Voidwalker Whispers 00:55, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
If we got rid of unblockself, that would be fine with me; I just don't understand why that's an option and other stuff isn't (either all of them should be options, or none of them should be), since the rogue admin can't really be stopped without bureaucrat or steward assistance, but the confused self-autoblocking admin has to get help. Nyttend (talk) 01:06, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
The only thing admins can do when blocked is unblockself and editowntalk (if not also blocked). If you would have used a different computer or certain other browsers you would have a new set of cookies and would not be impacted by the cookie block anymore. — xaosflux Talk 01:17, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Having tested it myself, I can confirm that an admin can edit from an autoblocked IP address, but not from a cookie-blocked browser. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:08, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Recent Changes problems

I have used Recent Changes for the past year, but the Recent Changes won't load properly when I put in my custom changes to fight vandalism, it just sit there and load for minutes. Is it a bug in the coding? Gary "Roach" Sanderson (talk) 16:14, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

@Gary "Roach" Sanderson: This may be a backward step, but on the "Recent changes" preferences tab there is a checkbox labelled "Hide the improved version of Recent Changes". Your custom changes may be incompatible with the latest version. -- John of Reading (talk) 16:21, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
What "custom changes" ??? —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:42, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Tech News: 2017-42

15:31, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Disappearance of menu in Recent changes

Hello, does anyone else experience this problem: Just an hour ago I logged in, went to recent changes, and the whole menu have disappeared (i.e. I can't choose how many pages to display (from 50 to 500)). Any help will be appreciated. Thanks.--Biografer (talk) 20:22, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Thursday change. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:35, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
@Redrose64: I was editing pages on this site every day (including Thursdays), never had an issue. What's changed (or changing)?--Biografer (talk) 22:50, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
From #Tech News: 2017-41 above:
If you look back through this page and its archives, most of the "unexpected" changes happen on Thursdays. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:53, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
The English Wikipedia always gets new MediaWiki versions on Thursdays, and got one this week. I suspect Redrose64 is just guessing that it's related. I get a menu at Special:RecentChanges but a couple of seconds after the rest of the page has loaded. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:06, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
We should try and isolate if it does have to do with the new version first. Does selecting "Hide the improved version of Recent Changes" in prefs change anything? -- The Voidwalker Whispers 23:22, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: and @The Voidwalker: Your site already says that it's October 13. So no, apparently it have nothing to do with October 12 update. Will see if hiding it will do anything for me, if not, seek your suggestion and support. Thanks. PS: What would we do if it will not be fixed by October 19, shouldn't we just revert changes?--Biografer (talk) 02:20, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Today being 13 October will have nothing to do with it. MediaWiki updates are typically rolled out once a week, on Thursdays, in the middle of the day (California time). If it is a MediaWiki problem, don't expect any change until Thursday 19 October.
@PrimeHunter: I also see that Recent Changes is different, instead of nice quick "50 100 250 500" links that were present right from the start, I now have to wait for the JavaScript to stop churning, click a button (that is not present until the JavaScript finishes), then click another button. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:42, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Oh, and the buttons, having grey text on a grey background, are not good for accessibility. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:45, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Biografer, is your interface looking like that one?
Redrose64, the colors as they are used pass the WCAG tests AA and AAA levels.
Trizek (WMF) (talk) 08:34, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Trizek (WMF): You will be surprised, but, no. All of them are white coloured and where its light green its bright yellow (old version). The problem is, is that the whole filter menu is gone, and three dots (indicating loading screen) appears. With that thing absent, I can only view 50 pages at a time, and when I am done, I need to hit recent changes link to refresh it. I hope, now you can get a clearer picture of what's going on. And yes, I tried hiding List of abbreviations box, tried to log out/log in back, nothing. :(--Biografer (talk) 16:03, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Biografer: At least until you get it sorted out, you can go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rc and check Hide the improved version of Recent Changes three sections down. Nihlus 16:08, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. Now it works, like a charm.--Biografer (talk) 16:15, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Biografer:, I didn't get your notification (they are broken). The interface you have (had, before you opt-out) is apparently the right one. At least, there is no interference from a script or a gadget. On recent changes with the new interface, you can still change the number of pages you want to view, like any function you had before. There is new functions as well, like a direct link to update the list of results without reloading the page each time. Please have a look at the documentation to know more. Trizek (WMF) (talk) 16:32, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Superb - that fix in the preferences works like a charm. Thanks! Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 11:42, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Looking for small tasks+mentors for new contributors - got something in mind?

Hi everybody! Google Code-in (GCI) will soon take place again - a seven week long contest for 13-17 year old students to contribute to free software projects. Tasks should take an experienced contributed about two-three hours and can be of the categories Code, Documentation/Training, Outreach/Research, Quality Assurance, and User Interface/Design. Do you have an idea for a task and could you imagine mentoring that task? For example, do you have something on mind that needs documentation, research, some gadget or template issues on your "To do" list but you never had the time, and can imagine enjoying mentoring such a task to help a new contributor? If yes, please check out mw:Google Code-in/2017 and become a mentor! Thanks in advance! --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 19:51, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

"14,882 users are trying this feature."

In "preferences - Beta features", each feature gets a "X users are trying this feature." statement. Are this users on enwiki or global? Fram (talk) 14:28, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

It's related to the wiki you're looking at. Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:40, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
That's what I thought someone said awhile ago as well. I then already thought that the numbers given were suspiciously high. For the "Content translation tool", it says "58,320 users are trying this feature.", even though the tool is "restricted to editors that are extended-confirmed.", of which there are at the moment only 36774... Fram (talk) 14:54, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
It wasn't always limited to extended-confirmed and all users still see the option in preferences and can enable it there even if it doesn't currently work in their account. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:05, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
In addition to this, the number is only about those who opted-in deliberately: doesn't count those who chose "Automatically enable...". Elitre (WMF) (talk) 15:07, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
While I can buy Pimehunter's explanation, it seems extremely unlikely that more than 50,000 editors on enwiki, who don't have 'enable all beta features', have actually specifically enabled this feature. Fram (talk) 15:44, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
It's not. First, because it's been a tool in active development for a few years now, that's globally much appreciated and will soon celebrate the creation of article #250k. Also, the English Wikipedia is quite often the source of translations, so one needs to have Content Translation enabled here to start a translation into their own language. Elitre (WMF) (talk) 16:07, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
To clarify: That number reports all accounts that are currently opted in at this (local) wiki, according to the prefs table. So if someone creates an account, plays around with the prefs, and forgets the password, then that account will always be counted as "trying this feature". But if you actually do try the feature, but without ticking the individual button, then your account will not be counted as "trying this feature". It is, at best, an estimate. Given that >99% of accounts are not actively editing, the difference between "actually using" and "ticked the button at some point in the past" can be quite substantial. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:32, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Not receiving pings

Several people tried to ping me today, and nothing went through [8] [9] [10]. My settings don't have anyone muted, and the templates/signatures seem to have been placed correctly. Also checked to make sure that my preferences have notifications on for mentions. Anyone have any ideas why these aren't going through? TonyBallioni (talk) 01:07, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

I also noticed that a few pings were lost for me as well (i.e. I never received the two notifications from Beetstra at MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist#Torrent_socks). —PaleoNeonate – 01:13, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@TonyBallioni: Did you receive this ping? Also, do you know if those users have their settings set to tell them when they fail to ping someone? Adam9007 (talk) 01:17, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
I've just changed my settings so that it should tell me when I successfully ping someone. Testing: TonyBallioni. Update: Yes, ping was successfully sent. Adam9007 (talk) 01:21, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
I've also noticed several pings did not reach me too. Is this another system change? Incidentally, are all of the failed mentions from {{u}}? Alex ShihTalk 01:24, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @Adam9007:, I did. Looking at those pings they used the {{u}} template, while you used the {{re}}. I do not know if @Megalibrarygirl: has her settings to notify if pings don't go through. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:25, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@TonyBallioni: I received your {{replyto}} ping, so maybe it's a problem with the {{u}} template? Adam9007 (talk) 01:28, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@Adam9007: It's not going to be the {{u}} template. Templates do not, by themselves, trigger notifications: the required feature is a link to the user page. If a template - whether that be {{u}}, {{user}}, {{replyto}} or similar - happens to generate a user page link, a notification will be sent exactly as if a bare link had been used, as I did in this post. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:56, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@TonyBallioni: Your first diff didn't notify because it was a modification, not a new post. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:56, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
  • I’m not receiving any pings from anyone either. For example, Huon pinged me multiple times on article talk pages where they started discussions about an issue with which I am involved. However, I didn’t get any of those notifications, and I was only aware of the discussions because I was watching those talk pages. Additionally, I didn’t get any notifications when my edits were reverted on some pages, even though my settings are supposed to send me such notices. This is appearing to be a technical bug of some sort, because pings and other notifications were working just fine a few days ago. Also, when I get a talk page message, the “You have new messages” banner appears, in addition to a notification in Special:Notifications. This is weird. —Ecstatic Electrical, 01:30, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
    I also have this impression, because I did not change any related setting and the edit history did show that the signature was present in the two edits I mentioned (a requirement for successful notification). —PaleoNeonate – 01:34, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
This edit from an alternative account with "Successful mention" enabled at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-echo gave the account "Your mention of PrimeHunter was sent", but my PrimeHunter account did not receive a notification. This may be a case of phab:T177825. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:39, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Pings are being received if they're sent using the {{Reply to}} template. It's pings sent by {{User link}} that appears to be the problem. That said, {{ping}} is the same as {{Reply to}}, so who knows? Adam9007 (talk) 01:45, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I used {{ping}} and you used {{re}}. I didn't get either. When the software told the sending account that a notification was sent, I doubt it's related to which template was used. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:54, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: It's not. The key requirement is a link to the user page. Templates have nothing to do with it. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:56, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
It sounds like you are referring to the mention feature in general when it's working correctly. We were discussing why some notifications failed to go through when they satisfied all the requirements including a link to the user page. When something is partially broken, it's fair to speculate about which circumstances cause it to fail. I received several mention notifications today so it works in some cases. My guess is that the failures are independent of whether a template or which template was used. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:30, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Not sure if my comment belongs here but Ecstatic Electrical mentioned they don't recieve revert notifications - Neither do I, It seems the little red number has stopped for me, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 10:59, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
    Having the same problem over here, too. Patient Zerotalk 11:00, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
    And Davey2010 just mentioned me, and yet I didn’t get pinged. Like before, I was only aware because I’m watching this page. —Ecstatic Electrical, 11:32, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm also confirming that it persists. —PaleoNeonate – 17:08, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
I've also been missing pings lately. GABgab 17:45, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
I have figured out what was causing this problem. 1367 users are affected on English Wikipedia, and they are not receiving any notifications (mentions or otherwise) from logged-in users (but notifications coming from anons should work). I have a fix lined up, but we probably won't be able to roll it out until Monday (most people don't work over the weekend, I usually don't either). In the meantime, you can work around the issue by making a change to your preferences. It can be any change, and you can even change it back, as long as you save in between. For example, change your language to Canadian English, save, change it back, save. Once you do that, you should start receiving notifications again. For a more detailed (technical) explanation and for a play-by-play of how I figured this out over the course of an hour, see my comments on the Phabricator task. --Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talk) 00:06, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
@Roan Kattouw (WMF): I have now made a pref change/un-change. Will I need to do this on all other wikis too?
Also, is there any possibility that these incorrectly-muted notifications could be re-sent? Since Monday 9 October 2017, the only notifications that I have received have been of just two kinds: (i) 'Your mention of Example was sent' and (ii) 'Example‬ left a message on your talk page in "‪Thread"'. It's easy to find out who has thanked me in that period; it's all recorded at Special:Log/thanks - but the notifications which I have really missed are those concerning: mentions elsewhere than my talk page; edit reverts; and notifications (of all types) from another wiki. I am certain that I have been reverted in the past six days, but I only know about those on my watchlist; similarly, I don't know who has mentioned me elsewhere than discussion pages on my watchlist. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:45, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
So I received my first ping today (since about a week ago) after changing a setting, saving, then changing it back, saving again. Lost notifications are not available in the log, however. I agree that it would be a very nice thing if when the bug is fixed the log could also be restored (assuming that it's still available somewhere in non-public logs)... —PaleoNeonate – 16:21, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
@Redrose64: @PaleoNeonate: Yes, you would have to do that on every wiki. However, that issue should be moot quite soon, as my fix for this should roll out within the next half hour or so (I'll update here when it does). Sadly, muted notifications are not stored (since muting happens at send time) and I don't think they're going to be recoverable. --Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talk) 18:27, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
It took a bit longer than half an hour because we mistakenly believed that my patch broke other things, but as of about 10 minutes ago, my fix is live. --Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talk) 23:37, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
I started reveiving pings again last night. Thank you Roan. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:32, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

User magic word

Hello again. I failed to find a magic word which expands to the current user's name in the documentation, like USERNAME (ideally not the signature). I thought of an unsubst trick with tildes, but tildes output the signature anyway, not the actual username (assuming that the signature includes a link to the user page, possibly that a fancy URL extraction trick would also be possible). Does anyone know of a simple trick to have a template automatically output the editor/substitutor's username as part of its results? Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 09:51, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't think you can do this unless the template is actually on the users userpage, when you can use variations of PAGENAME. The full list of parser thingies is Help:Magic_words. Dysklyver 10:11, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
This is not possible, as it would mean that the page would be different for each user viewing it, which makes it uncachable. Wikimedia is very dependent on caching, therefore such functionality is not provided. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:11, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Unless the template that does this is being substituted, in which case you can use {{REVISIONUSER}} {{repeat|p|3}}ery (talk) 11:13, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
If you want to permanently save the the name of a user making an edit then {{subst:REVISIONUSER}} will do it. In a template to be substituted you can for example write {{safesubst:<noinclude />REVISIONUSER}} to prevent your own username from being saved when you edit the template. {{REVISIONUSER}} without subst: will display the last editor of the page, or a user previewing the page. It is not possible to display the name of the user reading a page. We could make global JavaScript to modify certain code on a page after loading but it would only work for users with JavaScript and there are other issues. I don't support it. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:15, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes I'd of course want it to be permanent (substituted at edit time). This may be what I was looking for, thank you very much, —PaleoNeonate – 12:39, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
It works great, thanks again! —PaleoNeonate – 12:49, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

New source edit screen

Visual editor but on "edit source" kind of thing
That's yer problem right there

WTF is going on? Impossible to post a subst:GAN notice without a load of ******* nowiki ****?! — fortunavelut luna 14:17, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank fuck for the censoring! Anywho, could you give us a screenshot? Might be helpful FIM, though I'm not really sure what's going on.. -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 14:20, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
You must see it surely- it's doing it right now on this page, where the edit screen isn't a window it's a page. I'm crap about the lingo. Yeah soz about the ****, was just going slightly potty back there :) It loads ike V?E but displays mark-up rather than WYSIWYG. Here's a cap ------>
Do you have "New wikitext mode" enabled in your beta settings? Nihlus 14:37, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
This is gorgeous this is :D If I have... then who enabled it?! "Grrrr" Hold on I'll have a boucherie — fortunavelut luna 14:40, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
You could have if you have "Automatically enable all new beta features" selected as well. Nihlus 14:41, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
LOL thanks Nihlus- I take it the nicely ready-ticked box "Automatically enable all new beta features" is the culprit!?! -or should I say the ******* culprit?! ;) — fortunavelut luna 14:43, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks Nilhus, got it just as you posted thanks for that. Now: UNCHECK :D and thanks too, fucking Time :p — fortunavelut luna 14:45, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, that'll do it that will -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 14:47, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Tech_News:_2017-40: "If you have turned on "Automatically enable all new beta features" you will now get the 2017 wikitext editor". There was a bug fix which meant you are getting the Beta Feature, like you indicated in your preferences. It is possible to disable it of course; thanks for considering "playing" with it a bit and leaving some feedback before opting out. Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:48, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks Elitre (WMF), in general I don't mind experimenting (got me into a lot of trouble when I was young!), but al I was trying to do was paste '{{subst:GAN|subtopic=Royalty, nobility, and heraldry}}' onto a talk, but instead got <code><nowiki>{{subst:GAN|subtopic=Royalty, nobility, and heraldry}}</nowiki>- see, loads of nowiki /code etc wrapped around it. It worked on the fifth attempt :p — fortunavelut luna 15:02, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Just for general information: The WMF decided that they could reduce the number of editors by building a "wikitext mode" inside of Visual Editor, and getting us to eventually switch into it. It has performance problems and faulty previews because it's build inside of VE. Performance is severely affected by the side of the article, and seems to vary for different people. The last time I tried previewing United States it took over 60 seconds. There was a Village Pump consensus to submit the performance and preview issues as deployment-blockers. The WMF has given no indication that performance can be improved to be comparable to the current editor, and they appear unwilling to provide genuine previews. Instead they want to eventually switch over article views to use the VE-rendering engine. That would theoretically fix most or all of the "preview flaws" of trying to use VE-itself as a preview for wikitext editing. Alsee (talk) 20:55, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Wow. That's nuts. I really really really hope they don't go ahead with it — the normal editor's worked well for fifteen years, and if it's not broke, don't fix it. Nyttend (talk) 23:29, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Ditto. A change like this probably would "reduce the number of editors", but probably not in the way that the WMF intended. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:29, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Ha!, I also read it that way at first, as a sarcastic dig at the WMF by Alsee ... --Pipetricker (talk) 09:31, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Sorry about this confusion, everyone.
If you're interested in editing tools, then please see mw:Editor for a long list of editing environments. Almost all of the tools currently on the list are supported by the Foundation. The Foundation plans to continue support indefinitely for almost all of these editing environments, including the 2003 (non-Javascript-requiring) wikitext editor and the 2010 wikitext editor (Nyttend, that's probably the one that you describe as "the normal editor", but you can check the screenshots at mw:Editor to be sure). There is a plan to drop Foundation support for exactly one (1) of those tools (and a volunteer is looking at converting it to a user script, in which case, it won't even go away – it'll just be someone else's problem when it breaks).
If you are interested in questions of performance, then you will be interested in the new quarterly goals for the Contributors' teams. If you are interested in how previews are constructed (and you aren't Jonesey95, who already knows about all of this ;-), then you may want to read about the two-systems problem and the removal of Tidy.
I happen to know about the plans for editing support, but in general, if you want to know the actual plans for any particular product, then please ask me. If I don't know, I'll try to find out for you. You can also ask any dev working on the product that interests you. Having a bunch of rumors floating around is not going to help anything. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:24, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
"This editor is planned to be removed in MediaWiki 1.30" doesn't sound like it's being supported indefinitely. Nyttend (talk) 01:36, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Also, according to Special:Version, Wikipedia already uses version 1.31. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:37, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
MW 1.31 started recently. The removal has been delayed because of two bugs (so far; one was recently resolved, and the other is still open).
Nyttend, as I said above "There is a plan to drop Foundation support for exactly one (1) of those tools". The one editing environment that the Foundation will no longer support is the 2006 wikitext editor (=not 2003 or 2010, both of which will be supported for a long time to come). See phab:T30856 if you want to follow that work. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 15:20, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Why does the right column of this table not align center?

Align left Align center
good bad
good bad
good bad
good bad

Obviously I'm misunderstanding the "scope" parameter or something. But is there a way to do this other than setting the style of every cell in the column? Help:Table doesn't give an answer. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 23:44, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

You do infact have to style each cell manually. (unless someone else knows a trick here) Dysklyver 10:16, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, this is a limitation in html. Each cell in a column must be styled. It would technically be possible for MediaWiki to make a way to add the same styling to every cell in the generated html but that hasn't been done and maybe shouldn't be done due to complications like possible explosion of html size. Some tables use a row template which adds styling. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:25, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

This is a limitation of wikitext not of html (see It can be overcome using sitewide CSS and nth type pseudo classes (although that will increase page size for everyone) or by something like Help:TemplateStyles. 11:58, 17 October 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk)

HTML5 allows all cells in a column to be styled as a group, this is done using the <colgroup>...</colgroup> and <col /> elements (which date back to HTML 4.0), but we can't make use of this feature because those two elements are not whitelisted. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:01, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Putting the "text-align: center" statement into the table start row makes all text in the table centred.
e.g. class="wikitable" style="width: 300px; text-align: center;" produces
Align left Align center
good bad
good bad
good bad
good bad
then it is a question of making anything different a separate cell based statement. Nthep (talk) 16:33, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Mojibake filenames

c:Commons:Bots/Work requests#Rename files with wonky Unicode encoding may interest some of the very technically minded here. At least 10,000 files need renaming. — Dispenser 16:49, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Odd template/infobox error

Can someone who knows templates look at this article and figure out what's going on in the infobox? I had a couple of whacks at fixing it, see History, but I can't figure it out. Maury Markowitz (talk) 15:17, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

The {{Start date and age}} template does not like spaces in the month parameter. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:39, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Fixed in the template [11] to avoid this limitation. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:55, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks everyone! Maury Markowitz (talk) 13:56, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

IPA pronunciation missing while requesting page through JSON API

In the following link the IPA pronunciation for the name Týr is missing:

The JSON includes:

"<p><b>Týr</b> (<span></span>; Old Norse: <i>Týr</i> ... "

Notice the empty <span> just after the "(", where the pronunciation should be.

Before the JSON used to include:

"<p><b>Týr</b> (<span><span>/<span><span title="/ˈ/ primary stress follows">ˈ</span><span title="'t' in 'tie'">t</span><span title="/ɪər/ 'ear' in 'near'">ɪər</span></span>/</span></span>; Old Norse: <i>Týr</i> ..."

Notice that the <span> after the "(" contains the IPA pronunciation (/ˈtɪər/).

The text in the "regular" page ( is:

Týr (/ˈtɪər/;[1] Old Norse: Týr [tyːr]) is a Germanic god ...

I would expect the API response to include the IPA pronunciation, as they used to do.

This started happening recently, maybe a month ago. The second JSON snippet that I pasted is from 2017-01-27, so back then it was definitely working. Also notice that the first IPA (/ˈtɪər/, within //) is missing, whereas the second one ([tyːr], within []) is still included in the API response: perhaps it has something to do with the //. If necessary I can provide more examples and try to determine more accurately the date when this started happening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:B89F:F850:61B0:46C5:989D:75 (talk) 19:43, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

It is a deliberate editor choice ( See this). If third parties want to use such information they need to parse the page and retrieve it by themselves. (talk) 21:36, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I think this should either be fixed or reverted. Currently the API response is broken after removing the HTML:
Týr (; Old Norse: Týr [tyːr]) ...
Notice the (;.
Similarly in ( the output without HTML tags is:
Beijing, () formerly romanized as Peking, ...
Notice the empty () (or (<span></span>) in the API response).
If the IPA is removed, the () or ; should be removed as well, otherwise the API response looks broken. However I'm not sure why it was removed in the first place, since it's useful and not intrusive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:B89F:F850:61B0:46C5:989D:75 (talk) 16:10, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Twitter Cards / Facebook Open Graph

Both Twitter and Facebook have techniques where a website owner can specify metadata that allows a posted link to be expanded into a small preview. Such previews generally show an image, the page title, the publisher, etc. Many media companies, e.g. CNN, NYTimes, etc., embed support for both Twitter Cards and Facebook's Open Graph, which allows their content to be previewed when linked from either platform. Presently, Wikipedia supports neither.

I'm not really interested in arguing the merits either way, but I'm curious if Wikipedia's current lack of support is due to a conscious choice NOT to support such technologies, or is it more the case that no one has taken the time to try and do so? Dragons flight (talk) 11:52, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

@Dragons flight: A little bit of both. There is reservations about adding tons of vender specific tags to all our HTML content, so generally, we tried to avoid that. We did implement all the fallback strategies that those platforms supported, so most of the time, it's pretty good actually (unless you want to share an imagepage). See also phab:T56829 and it's many connected tickets. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:51, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure about those fallback strategies. Facebook does seem to generate a preview from Wikipedia content, but Twitter just seems to leave a bare link, e.g. most of the tweets at [12]. It was because of the Twitter case that I actually thought to ask. Thanks for the Phabricator reference. Dragons flight (talk) 15:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
You don't happen to know if any of the existing extensions in this area are reasonably functional? (For potential use on a non-WMF Mediawiki installation.) Dragons flight (talk) 15:27, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
@Dragons flight: The twitter cards extension, which is referred to in some of those tickets was used to experiment with this and probably still works. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 16:15, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

DYK's should be viewable from Mobiles too

Currently, Mobile view of Wikipedia's Main Page doesn't show the Did you know section. I think this should be shown as a large number of readers visit Wikipedia from mobiles and tablets, I-pads etc and DYK's aren't being exposed to them. Also, some topics may share interests with mobile readers, like an Apple smartphone hook, which recieves less views on Computers but more from Mobiles and Tablets. What do you guys think about this ? Request a passing administrator to implement this if enough users agree. (talk) 11:37, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

The above message was posted on WT:DYK, and I'm copying here FYI. — Maile (talk) 12:43, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
A month ago, I had the same question about TFP. The explanations were interesting. (Main page still in table format, not in responsive format). -DePiep (talk) 13:48, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Lame. This needs fixing. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:37, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
It's not broken. -DePiep (talk) 21:41, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Actually its quite simple, the existing main page layout can't be made responsive because Wikipedia has very limited global CSS which does not allow for it. The other option, that of changing the layout, has already been subject to wheel warring and bitter infighting. So nothing happens. And before you say we should have a main page just for mobiles, that can't be done without breaking the mediawiki software. Dysklyver 20:08, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
A Den Jentyl Ettien Avel Dysklyver could yo clarify: "Wikipedia has ..." is that enwiki, mw, WMF? As I understood TheDJ, it was enwiki local only (other lang-wikis may have improved their main page). -DePiep (talk) 21:41, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I believe that the French Wikipedia created a responsive Main Page about two years ago. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:39, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I recognise the situation of heaven-blocking "no consensus so no change" (me in lower level situations ;-) ). Does not this sort of point out that the Wikipedia consensus model needs improvement? -DePiep (talk) 21:41, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
mw:Extension:TemplateStyles is the solution once it is deployed here. — JJMC89(T·C) 02:00, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Indeed mw:Extension:TemplateStyles would fix this by allowing us to define main page specific CSS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by A Den Jentyl Ettien Avel Dysklyver (talkcontribs) 10:02, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

When 4 tildes are not a signature

I am messing about with conversions from {{familytree}} to {{chart}}. I recently filled in the missing tiles in chart so that chart can now handle all of the familytree tiles and more. For reasons that are not clear to me there is no one to one mapping of tile names between familytree and chart, but over a decade ago User:GregU wrote a tool that may help (see User:GregU/familytree.js).

I am messing about with a fairly complicated tree that appears in the article Family tree of Muhammad (the first one under the section "Family tree"). I have already converted it by hand so this is a test. As can be seen by looking at the documentation that comes with the templates {{familytree}} to {{chart}} the tile letter that represents a dashed line is a Tilde "~". To represent a line of dashes GregU's tool produces a line of tildes in the ASCII representation. The problem is that if one then saves the ASCII representation, the tildes get converted into signatures.

As GregU no longer appears to be active,I can not ask her/him for help, so can any one tell me if there is a way to save thee or more tildes in a row without them being turned into signatures? -- PBS (talk) 14:08, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Surround them with nowiki tags like so: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:11, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Or for a tiny bit less typing, put a self-closed nowiki tag exactly in the middle, like this: ~~<nowiki/>~~ – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:37, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
A self-closed nowiki tag inside will only work if there are at most four tildes. I don't know your exact use case but a single <pre>...</pre> around a whole block of text may also be an option. This creates a monospaced font and preserves linebreaks like the below example. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:40, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
|              |
|              |
The other option is {{4~}} which gives ~~~~. There is also {{3~}} and {{5~}}. Primefac (talk) 18:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Strange SVG behaviour

When processing a request at FFU, I uploaded File:Logo for Schwan's Company.svg using an SVG I found at the company's website. The logo looks correct if I open the SVG in my web browser, but the PNG generated by Mediawiki is all black. Any idea what might be wrong? --Stefan2 (talk) 18:36, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Use a proper svg capable program like abode illustrator or inkscape to convert it, basically the transparency/colors/code/format/specification/some thingies aren't supported by whatever mediawiki is using. Dysklyver 19:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
@Stefan2: The main problem is that the <style> tag does not have a type="text/css" attribute. It's not required by the SVG spec, and your browser clearly doesn't care; but some user agents (including librsvg, which we use to create the png versions that are served) won't process the <style>...</style> block without it (more at c:Help:SVG#Stylesheet). I would also add a version="1.1" attribute to the <svg> tag. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:05, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
That helped. Thanks, User:Redrose64! --Stefan2 (talk) 20:14, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

"Do you really want to remove page X from your watchtlist?"

Today, viewing my watchlist, I can click to remove a page. All fine, very professional. But hey. Randomly I must confirm, and even then we do not return to the page came from. -DePiep (talk) 01:55, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

@DePiep: This is likely because the page had not finished loading Javascript, or because an error in your scripts had an error and then interrupted the rest of the Javascript initialisation. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:38, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
To be clear: viewing my watchlist I can click a linked "×", then the page is struck <s>-style in view, all right. In other moments (IMO randomly), by that same "×" click I must confirm in a page clicking "Yes", and then click to return to my Watchlist. This is the not funny route I complain about.
re TheDJ: is this something I have set or I can set? (Must say, I was working on a slow old WinXP setup. Related?). -DePiep (talk) 22:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
What browser? Note that most old browers don't have working JavaScript due to safety issues. Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 16:53, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Firefox 52.4.0 (=latest IMO). I think there is more in TheDJ's note: very slow computer, so scripts may not be active. -DePiep (talk) 20:38, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
@DePiep: "I can click a linked "×", then the page is struck -style in view i'm still wondering what is giving you that functionality... Cause i don't have it, and i can't find it either. :) —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 21:33, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
In my Watchlist, it is in the second column (first column is: blue/green colored ball/triangle-to-unfold; third+ columns are the "m, b" indicators). It's a wikilink, so "×" has regular underline. When fast, the whole page line is struck and greyed out right away (good). When slow, the issue at hand, it leads to url [13] (demo page infobox here; of course wrt my own watchlist). Could be related to a Preference I have set. Clear enough? -DePiep (talk) 21:52, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist - "Add direct unwatch/watch links to watchlist entries (JavaScript required for toggle functionality)". -- The Voidwalker Whispers 22:31, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Fixing interwiki links?

Hey, I seem to a recall some years back these were moved to meta, and reading a description of the new way to handle them at that time, but I haven't thought about it much since. All the ones I added by the old method were automatically fixed -- I think? But that doesn't help me fix cases where they are already messed up.

Specifically, someone linked the Japanese article ja:仏足石歌 from our article bussokusekika, but our article was actually on the different (but related) topic covered in the Japanese article ja:仏足石歌碑. I moved the page (the earlier title was technically inaccurate, as "bussokusekika" describes a poetic form not exclusive to the bussokuseki-kahi).

But now I don't know how to change the link to to match the identical topic.

Hijiri 88 (やや) 11:10, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

There should be an "edit links" option (with a pencil icon) at the bottom of the Languages section in the left sidebar, taking you to the Wikidata page. Certes (talk) 11:37, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Is there a problem with TOC LIMIT?

I have tried in two different places, one in main space and one in my user sandbox, both with {{toc right |limit=3 or 4}} and with {{toc limit | 3 or 4}} and neither work, yes I am setting the correct respective number of "=" in the section titles. Only a limit of 2 seems to work. Any ideas? Eno Lirpa (talk) 13:07, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

You failed to show or link a real example or say what you think is wrong so you are forcing us to guess. I guess that you refer to User:Eno Lirpa/sandbox/toc stuff and that you think {{toc limit|3}} should never show a level 4 ====A====. But see Template:TOC limit#TOC levels versus wikitext header levels. There is no level 3 ===...=== above ====A====, so it should be displayed and it is for me. It disappears if you insert ===...=== above it. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:42, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks - you guessed correctly - toc levels versus heading levels explains it. Resolved. Eno Lirpa (talk) 13:55, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Quarry query

This question is about the Quarry SQL interface. If there's a better place to ask, please let me know.

A query I'm developing takes a long time to run. Is there any way to see the query plan without actually running the SQL? (The Explain button only appears once the SQL is running, and the EXPLAIN statement fails because I don't have the necessary table permissions.) If not, is there any way to stop a query once it's running and I can see from Explain that it's going to hog resources forever without producing useful results?

The specific query is DabPairs, which aims to identify when Foo and Foo (disambiguation) are distinct dab pages (not redirects to each other) but a solution would also be of more general use. The specific problem I'm having is that MySQL refuses to use the name_title index on the page table, despite my specifying a constant P2.page_namespace and an expression for P2.page_title. I've tried using STRAIGHT_JOIN (which successfully forces the join order I'm aiming for) and FORCE INDEX (which fails, telling me that name_title isn't a key) but nothing seems to work.

Suggestions welcome! Certes (talk) 12:39, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

@Certes: WP:Request a query may be able to help. --2601:14A:C101:6EA3:C009:AF6:DB8C:3465 (talk) 13:57, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks; query moved to there. Certes (talk) 16:18, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Template bleedover

Hi all, can someone please look at this version of a user's talk page. The Teahouse greeting is bleeding into the next comment. I tried slapping a {{clear}} onto it, but it didn't help too much. Something is obviously funky about Template:Teahouse thank you. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:15, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

@Cyphoidbomb: Fixed. Purge as needed if you see it elsewhere. Nihlus 23:28, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
@Nihlus: Thanks mate, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:42, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Hatnote spacing

Is it just me or the spacing between a hatnote and "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" has indeed shrinked? Two samples. The upper spacing was rather identical to the bottom spacing between a hatnote and the article's first sentence several days ago (Windows Firefox, default 100% zoom). Brandmeistertalk 13:13, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

not just you, it's a bug. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 13:51, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
@TheDJ: It is fixed here and on some other languages somehow but on :sr: not. Is it possible to fix it there too? --Obsuser (talk) 05:27, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
I know now possible solution, no need for answer. --Obsuser (talk) 18:35, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Word count

Hello! Is there any practical way in which we could have a word count of articles of a given Wikipedia? Maybe enwp is too big, but in euwp we don't have so many articles and this could be a great information on our quality.-Theklan (talk) 12:43, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

If you want a table showing the word count for all articles at the same time, I can't help you, but if you're only interested in the current article, the following can be added to Special:MyPage/common.js:
$( function() {
	'use strict';
	var container = $( '.mw-parser-output' );
	var text;
	var words;
	if ( container.length ) {
		text = container.text();
		if ( text ) {
			text = text.trim();
			if ( text ) {
				words = text.split( ' ' );
				$( 'h1' ).append( ' (' + words.length + ' words)' );
} );
It's not perfect (the last word in paragraph 1 will count as the same word as the first word in paragraph 2), but if you want a more accurate count, it quickly becomes a lot more complicated. It's also possible to filter out infoboxes or other arbitrary templates if you just throw more code at it, if that's what you want to do. Nirmos (talk) 13:36, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks Nirmos, it was the global count what I was searching for. The word count of a given article can be done with User:Caorongjin/wordcount. -Theklan (talk) 20:16, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Images are not showing up on Wikipedia

I have a big problem going on with Wikipedia. I can't locate around images easily on Wikipedia and when I click on an image, it is throw up an error message. This only happening on Wikipedia and nowhere else. This is the error message that comes when opening File:Farewell to 442402 Beckenham Junction to London Victoria 1Z43 approaching Beckenham Road station (32556548674).jpg:

Page not found

/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Farewell_to_442402_Beckenham_Junction_to_London_Victoria_1Z43_approaching_Beckenham_Road_station_(32556548674).jpg We could not find the above page on our servers. Did you mean: /wiki/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Farewell_to_442402_Beckenham_Junction_to_London_Victoria_1Z43_approaching_Beckenham_Road_station_(32556548674).jpg Alternatively, you can visit the Main Page or read more information about this type of error. Pkbwcgs (talk) 08:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Do you have the media viewer option turned on? If so, you could try disabling it, in case that helps. The image shows up for me (including its large version). —PaleoNeonate – 08:51, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PaleoNeonate: How can I disable media viewer? Pkbwcgs (talk) 09:27, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@Pkbwcgs: under preferences -> files there should be an "Enable media viewer" boolean option. —PaleoNeonate – 10:06, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PaleoNeonate: There is no files tab in my preferences so I still can't find it. Pkbwcgs (talk) 10:09, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Images work for me. "Enable Media Viewer" is at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering. What is your browser and skin? Does it happen if you are logged out? Are you saying the error happens when you click on the link "File:Farewell to 442402 Beckenham Junction to London Victoria 1Z43 approaching Beckenham Road station (32556548674).jpg"? How about commons:File:Farewell to 442402 Beckenham Junction to London Victoria 1Z43 approaching Beckenham Road station (32556548674).jpg? Or does it only happen when you click on a displayed image like at User:Pkbwcgs/sandbox? Do you have the Firefox addon NoScript? It can cause problems with some file names with parentheses. Does File:Example.png work? PrimeHunter (talk) 10:16, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: File:Example.png doesn't work. Pkbwcgs (talk) 10:23, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Also, File:Example.png and commons:File:Farewell to 442402 Beckenham Junction to London Victoria 1Z43 approaching Beckenham Road station (32556548674).jpg doesn't work after enabling Media viewer. In fact, a few hours ago some pictures worked but in the last two hours none of the pictures work before and after enabling Media viewer. Pkbwcgs (talk) 10:26, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
And... I don't use Firefox, I use Google Chrome. Pkbwcgs (talk) 10:27, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
And your skin, and logged out? PrimeHunter (talk) 10:45, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Logging out doesn't help the problem. The pictures still don't appear. Nor does clearing the cache. Pkbwcgs (talk) 11:01, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Apparently, it is error 404 but I can't able to fix it. Pkbwcgs (talk) 11:08, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Can you try another browser and maybe Internet connection? Is the error message the only content on a file page? Does or work? PrimeHunter (talk) 11:22, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Both versions are not working. The error message comes after going to the image - there is an image link instead of the image. If I click on the image link, it leads to error 404 and the error message I put right at the top of this thread. If I am too vague, I will post a screenshot. Pkbwcgs (talk) 12:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Have you tried Ctrl+F5 in Chrome? If so, please post a screenshot. Nihlus 12:43, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Does give the error? Are you in England as your user page says? I'm nearby in Denmark so our locations shouldn't make a difference. User-uploaded files are stored at Does work? PrimeHunter (talk) 13:02, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: @Nihlus: I don't know where can I upload a screenshot and only is working at the moment but the other link isn't. Pkbwcgs (talk) 13:31, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@Pkbwcgs: See WP:WPSHOT. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:06, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I wondered whether your browser didn't go to for some reason so I manually replaced the domain in the correct url and got this: It's not supposed to find an image and it gives me the error message you quoted, but I can find no way to get there without manually modifying the address. What is the address in your browser after you click this link: My browser stays at that address and displays the image. The address with nothing after the domain redirects me to The manually made wrong address also gives me an error message like you quoted but again, I can find no way to get there by clicking normal interface links. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:25, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: It still quite a bad problem. As soon as I clear the history, the images will work for 5 to 10 minutes and after that, the images will suddenly stop working. This problem suddenly happened on Friday and I still didn't get a solution. Pkbwcgs (talk) 14:36, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
It's hard to help if you don't answer questions. If you click then is your browser still on that address when you see an error message saying "We could not find the above page on our servers"? Where does "Main Page" in the error message link to? PrimeHunter (talk) 15:12, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: The link you have given is working. However, the pictures are still not showing up. The main page in the error is linking to Wikimedia Common's main page. However, sometimes even opening Wikimedia commons is throwing up this error below:

Error 'Our servers are currently under maintenance or experiencing a technical problem. Please try again in a few minutes.

See the error message at the bottom of this page for more information.'

By the way, the 'error message' in this error is error 404. Pkbwcgs (talk) 16:42, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Again, I am being held up with technical difficulties on Wikimedia Commons. Is there any maintenance work going on? Pkbwcgs (talk) 19:56, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Commons currently works for me but I have periodically seen such error messages for years. It's unrelated to the other problem. If the "Main Page" link goes to Commons then it sounds like you are at when you see the error message while you should have been at after you click an image to view the image directly and not just on a file page. But I cannot be sure because you still haven't answered what the address is. Maybe there is a problem with your browser. Do you have any browser extensions which may manipulate addresses? PrimeHunter (talk) 21:36, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: No luck - problem still is going on. The address that it is going to is Pkbwcgs (talk) 20:14, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Which of the problems? "We could not find the above page on our servers" and "Our servers are currently under maintenance or experiencing a technical problem" are completely different. And is only a domain. Please post a full address where you see the problem, e.g. which works for me. Copy-paste the address from your browser to be sure to get the precise address. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:04, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: We could not find the above page on our servers. is the error message. does not work for me. A few days back, it did. Pkbwcgs (talk) 15:42, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Please look at the image on File:Wikimedia error 404.png. I hope this is the right images but I think this is the example screenshot of the error 404 message I am getting. Pkbwcgs (talk) 15:47, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
That's odd. Not only does it work for me but if I try a deliberately wrong name at like then I only get this:
404 Not Found
The resource could not be found.

File not found: /v1/AUTH_mw/wikipedia-commons-local-public.70/7/70/WrongExample.png
It's a different message and it has no link to Commons or anywhere else. Contructing a wrong link with the right directory per mw:Manual:$wgHashedUploadDirectory gives me the same result: Please confirm that your browser is still on the address when you see "We could not find the above page on our servers", and a "Main Page" link going to Wikimedia Commons. Do you know where to see which address you are on? Can you try another browser? File:Wikimedia error 404.png is only a partial match to the message you quoted in the first post, but the file is five years old and from another domain so that's not surprising. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:15, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Sorry for the delayed reply. I can confirm that the web address is definitely Most of the images are still not working. Pkbwcgs (talk) 19:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Also, after a quick test, apparently this issue I am facing at the moment is on Google Chrome and not Internet Explorer. However, I still prefer Google Chrome to Internet Explorer. Will this be enough to help me out on my issue? Pkbwcgs (talk) 20:36, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Hillary Clinton template

I've located an issue with {{Hillary Clinton series}}, but I can't figure out how to fix it and wanted to ask for some assistance. The issue is that unlike any other template in Category:"Part of a series on" sidebar templates, this template is resulting in the direct inclusion in that category of every individual articlespace page that transcludes the template — but it's not supposed to be doing that, because that category is for the templates themselves, not for every mainspace article that has one of them on it. But I can't find the category code to determine how to fix it. Can anybody with more template experience take a look at this? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 19:41, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

That category was mistakenly added to the template. It was re-removed here but the other articles do not automatically update; the WP:JOBQUEUE has to update them and if it's backlogged you need to WP:PURGE every article. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:52, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
@Bearcat and Jo-Jo Eumerus: A purge won't work; it needs to be a WP:NULLEDIT to each page that is in the category incorrectly. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:27, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Um, purging the articles did actually work for me. JoJo Eumerus mobile (talk) 20:40, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Purge removes the category from the bottom of the article, but it doesn't remove the article from the list on the category page. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:42, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Assistance request: Enabling citoid templates on Wikiversity

Hi, I'm trying to enable Citoid templates on Wikiversity (discussion). The configuration process is slightly beyond my technical expertise. Would someone from Wikipedia be able to help me to make sure I don't break anything? Secifically, I need to enable the ability to autogenerate the {{cite journal}} from a DOI and PMID code. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)talk 06:22, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

(If anyone is interested, is where they can head to. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:25, 23 October 2017 (UTC))

Skin disappeared

A few weeks ago I changed the theme I am using in Preferences, but it has now changed back to Vector. I'm not sure what it was called, but I don't see any news about it being removed. Where did it go? (I see a RFC about adding "Timeless" skin, that started a couple days ago, maybe that's the one I was using, but that's for *adding* a skin, not removing one.) I'm confused. Thanks! —{{u|Goldenshimmer}}|✝️|ze/zer|😹|T/C|☮️|John15:12|🍂 02:53, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

MinervaNeue (example) has disappeared from Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering. I don't know why. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:02, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Aha, yes, that's the one I was using, thanks. Hopefully it comes back soon... —{{u|Goldenshimmer}}|✝️|ze/zer|😹|T/C|☮️|John15:12|🍂 17:07, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
From what I can see, Minerva has been removed for a bit - it was a beta feature, see also phab:T162494. — xaosflux Talk 18:11, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
I see. Dunno why they fix what ain't broken, but whatever :P Fixed it by adding some conditional redirects to my browser, in case anyone else is wondering:
Seems to be working fine, a real relief to have the skin back. Thanks for the info! —{{u|Goldenshimmer}}|✝️|ze/zer|😹|T/C|☮️|John15:12|🍂 18:56, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
MinervaNeue is very similar to the mobile version (example) of Wikipedia so you can also try that. It doesn't require browser tricks. In the desktop version of the site, click "Mobile view" at the bottom of a page. Some things like navigation templates are omitted from the mobile version. PrimeHunter (talk) 19:24, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! I prefer the one with the proper skin over the mobile one I think though, it doesn't fold up sections for one thing. Thanks though! (I discovered my redirects above don't work right with anchor fragments in URLs, though; here is a fixed replacement (struck my earlier version):
I think it's working now. Thanks again! :) —{{u|Goldenshimmer}}|✝️|ze/zer|😹|T/C|☮️|John15:12|🍂 20:25, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
There's a bit of work going on to standardize the skin name internally, this might have been a consequence of that. Minerva/MinervaNueue isn't going away :) FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY [u+1F602] 00:07, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

It will be back Thursday!! A patch failed to merge before we deployed. It's still there but sadly not accessible via preferences. You'll need to use the api to enable it in the mean time if that's too long to wait. Sorry about that! Jdlrobson (talk) 14:48, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Tech News: 2017-43

18:18, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Tip of the day article up for deletion

Here is an AfD for techies.

The lead states: "A tip of the day is a piece of advice that is given daily. For example, many computer programs, such as those in older versions of the Microsoft Office suite, will display a tip of the day when they are started."

Do you know of any major programs that provide a daily tip (upon startup)?

Would that establish notability?

Cheers. The Transhumanist 20:40, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Some games do on their loading screens, particularly games like the Football Manager series that aren't aimed at traditional gamers and thus there's an assumption that a significant proportion of players will be unfamiliar with gaming conventions. I'm unaware of any major piece of non-game software that still does this (with the obvious exception of Wikipedia); some Microsoft programs used to back in XP and Clippit the Paperclip days but they discontinued it years ago. The computing sense is certainly not the primary use of the term, since I'd be willing to bet (sic) that well over 90% of usage of the phrase relates to sports betting. ‑ Iridescent 22:24, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
@The Transhumanist: perhaps RFC 865 and QOTD would qualify? — xaosflux Talk 22:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
  • What qualifies as a major software?. gimp, solidworks, VMware, Sketch Up, Intellicad? These all have or had TotD. I would suggest however that TotD is more commonly associated with online help, support websites, betting sites, health, product, wellbeing websites rather than "on-startup" widgets these days. A simple google search for "tip of the day" shows that. ClubOranjeT 23:13, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
    • Does any of this establish notability? The nominator's rationale for deletion was failure to meet WP:GNG. The Transhumanist 04:10, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

"Talkquote" template not working

Can someone explain why the markup on this sandbox page is not working? It does not render at all, so you will have to look at the page's source. Thanks! SharkD  Talk  23:53, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

values assigned to positional parameters must not contain an equal sign.
Trappist the monk (talk) 00:04, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
You need |1= when the first unnamed parameter contains an equals sign (|text= would also work for this template). Otherwise it's interpreted as assigning the right hand sign of the equals sign to a parameter with the name on the left side. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:05, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
How do I make this work for multi-line quotes? I tried and the result ignored the spacing. SharkD  Talk  13:32, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
I guess using an HTML BR entity works. SharkD  Talk  13:50, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
You can use indent (:) or br, see some examples I put on your sandbox. — xaosflux Talk 13:56, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Links to archived talk pages

Is there a bot that can update links to Talk page topics once those topics get moved to an archive? Or does this have to be done manually? Thanks. SharkD  Talk  14:45, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

ClueBot III (talk · contribs) does this automatically; lowercase sigmabot III (talk · contribs) does not. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:49, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Deleted user contributions from timestamp

Is it possible to list deleted user contributions from a given year/month, in the same way that current contributions can be listed? Obviously this only applies to admins. Optimist on the run (talk) 11:39, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

There is no interface to do it but you can click "older 50" on deleted contributions and manually change the timestamp in the url. The format is offset=YYYYMMDDhhmmss. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:23, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. Optimist on the run (talk) 06:39, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Bot question

A lot of Canadian radio stations are stuck at the moment with a dead external link on them, because a site that we regularly rely upon as an EL for Canadian broadcast outlets has changed its URL structure — all of the pages still exist, but the URLs have changed and the old ones go 404. Fortunately, there's a regular, entirely predictable format to the new URLs, so it should potentially be possible to just set a bot with a substitution rule loose on the affected articles — but I don't know whether there is a bot than can do this or not, or whether we're just going to have to make the changes manually.

So, is there a bot that can do the URL switches for us? If there is, I'm willing to provide the needed information to the programmer. Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 22:01, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I know my bot can handle this. What's the old structure and what changes need to be made to it in order to comply with the new structure? Nihlus 22:03, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. This is going to be slightly trickier for AM radio stations than it is for FM, and we're willing to look after those manually if it would be too complicated, but here's the basics: what we need is a recursive run through all radio stations in Category:Radio stations in Canada and its subcategories.
For the URL format, I'm going to use the example of CBO-FM: the old format is , while the new one is So what the bot would need to do is replace the word "listings" in the URL with the singular "listing", and replace "histories.php" and all of the data after it (the digits used to be the part that varied from station to station) with the actual call sign of the station (basically a straight substitution of the page title itself.) The digits in the old histories.php don't actually matter, and are relevant only in the sense that the bot needs to be programmed to strip that part of the URL regardless of what the numbers after the equals signs are.
For FM stations, this should be entirely straightforward, since "-FM" is both the format of their new URLs and the format we use in our page titles. So for these stations, all it would have to do is replace the histories.php data with the page name.
For AM stations, it's a little bit trickier. The new URLs at CCF all use -AM, whereas our articles vary depending on whether disambiguation is needed or not. So what the bot should do is, if a radio station has a title with an (AM) disambiguator in it, it should just add the call sign with an -AM suffix instead of (AM), and if the title is just four letters with no (AM) or -FM suffix at all, it should also add an -AM suffix.
We also have a few radio stations that have extra disambiguatory information beyond just "(AM)" or "-FM", such as for defunct stations whose call signs then got taken over by a different new station later on. Usually this is "(defunct)", but not always. For stations with that kind of title, it would be too complicated to program the right rule for a simple bot substitution — so for any radio station that has a more complex title than just "CXXX", "CXXX (AM)" or "CXXX-FM", just have the bot just skip those and we'll look after them manually. As well, I've already manually replaced the URL on CBO-FM, since that was the example initially brought to my attention. And, of course, the bot should obviously just skip any page that doesn't have a URL on it at all — and the category tree also includes some redirects, so it should skip those as well.
We'll look after the wonky-titled pages manually, like I said, and if the AM station rules are too complicated to program we'll take them on as well. But whatever the bot is able to help with, we'd be most grateful. Bearcat (talk) 22:27, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Can you provide some examples of pages that need fixed? It helps to see how they are being used. Nihlus 22:36, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
CBME-FM, CJRQ-FM, CFNY-FM, CKOC, CHIN (AM). Generally, we've had a policy of using these as external links rather than as references per se, so in each case what you should see is an external link with the title "[Station] history", directly followed by an internal link to our article about the Canadian Communications Foundation. Bearcat (talk) 22:46, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
So you only want to fix those links under "External links" sections? It might be best to create a template similar to other EL templates and then just replace the ones on the articles with the template. Then it could also make any future changes to their url structure easier. Perhaps it should be titled {{BroadcastingHistoriesCanada}} or some variant. I'll start working on the template and then we can look to have the bot do the dirty work. Nihlus 22:56, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, you're right, that would actually be a really good idea! Bearcat (talk) 22:59, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure this sort of thing - if not this same task - has been requested at WP:BOTREQ before. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:07, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Browser tab HTML title doesn't have the free encyclopedia while other's do

I noticed that the HTML title data on simple english wikipedia has the free encyclopedia on every article,

<title>John Doe - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</title>

while the title on the regular English Wikipedia is just,

<title>John Doe - Wikipedia</title>

It might be understandable with the simple english wikipedia as they don't don't have the motto under the globe in the top left, but other wiki's like the Portuguese wiki, which has "the free encyclopedia" under the globe, also has it in the HTML title data as well which contradicts the idea of it being on the HTML title when it isn't under the globe(albeit as far as I have checked ~all wiki's have it atleast on the main page. The german wikipedia doesn't have the motto in the HTML title data, but does in the globe. So is it just seemingly random as to the use of the motto in the HTML, is there a reason for it, or is it something that can be fixed?(Also if this belongs better on the meta as it is crosswiki related please point me there) -glove- (talk) 00:45, 25 October 2017 (UTC) says "(pagetitle: John Doe)", meaning the message is defined in MediaWiki:Pagetitle. The English Wikipedia has used the default version which only adds " - Wikipedia" since an October 2016 discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 135#Proposal: Amend page title element to remove "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". Each wiki can independently decide the message in their local MediaWiki:Pagetitle. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:27, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Administrators can see the deleted page history of MediaWiki:Pagetitle. It included "the free encyclopedia" from 20 August 2005 to 12 October 2016. Many other wikis probably copied this from us in that period. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:35, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for the detailed response, also has this been proposed over at the simple english wiki to be changed? Probably wouldn't be be best as it isn't under the globe though but I was wondering if there was a discussion on it. -glove- (talk) 01:52, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Simple copied their message from us in 2007.[17] I don't work there and haven't found mention that our message changed in 2016. You could suggest it at simple:Wikipedia:Simple talk. PrimeHunter (talk) 09:59, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

List of Wikipedians by article count

Hi. This page is no longer being updated per this reason. If anyone knows how to fix it and has the time to do so, it would be appreciated. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 10:50, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

For those wondering whether the botop is aware, they are: it's a report built by BernsteinBot (talk · contribs) which is operated by MZMcBride (talk · contribs). --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:13, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Automatic edit summary when reverting IPv6 addresses


Undid revision 123456789 by Special:Contributions/2001:0db8:0000:0042:0000:8a2e:0370:7334

The way it should be:

Undid revision 123456789 by 2001:0db8:0000:0042:0000:8a2e:0370:7334 (talk)

Th4n3r (talk) 12:39, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

@Th4n3r: See #"undo" feature: the pre-filled edit summary for IPv6 users, above. -- John of Reading (talk) 12:46, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
@Th4n3r: In case that's not clear, each repetition of "2001:0db8:0000:0042:0000:8a2e:0370:7334" in the wikisource is a significant fraction of the maximum edit comment length, leaving very little for the undoer to write anything. It was changed from what you say it should be to the shorter wikitext.— Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 22:27, 4 November 2017‎ (UTC)

Structured Commons newsletter, October 25, 2017

Welcome to the newsletter for Structured Data on Wikimedia Commons! You can update your subscription to the newsletter. Do inform others who you think will want to be involved in the project!

Community updates
Things to do / input and feedback requests
Presentations / Press / Events
Audience at Structured Commons design discussion, Wikimania 2017
Team updates
The Structured Commons team at Wikimania 2017

Two new people have been hired for the Structured Data on Commons team. We are now complete! :-)

  • Ramsey Isler is the new Product Manager of the Multimedia team.
  • Pamela Drouin was hired as User Interface Designer. She works at the Multimedia team as well, and her work will focus on the Structured Commons project.
Partners and allies
  • We are still welcoming (more) staff from GLAMs (Galleries, Libraries, Archives and Museums) to become part of our long-term focus group (phabricator task T174134). You will be kept in the loop of the project, and receive regular small surveys and requests for feedback. Get in touch with Sandra if you're interested - your input in helping to shape this project is highly valued!

Design research is ongoing.

  • Jonathan Morgan and Niharika Ved have held interviews with various GLAM staff about their batch upload workflows and will finish and report on these in this quarter. (phabricator task T159495)
  • At this moment, there is also an online survey for GLAM staff, Wikimedians in Residence, and GLAM volunteers who upload media collections to Wikimedia Commons. The results will be used to understand how we can improve this experience. (phabricator task T175188)
  • Upcoming: interviews with Wikimedia volunteers who curate media on Commons (including tool developers), talking about activities and workflows. (phabricator task T175185)

In Autumn 2017, the Structured Commons development team works on the following major tasks (see also the quarterly goals for the team):

  • Getting Multi-Content Revisions sufficiently ready, so that the Multimedia and Search Platform teams can start using it to test and prototype things.
  • Determine metrics and metrics baseline for Commons (phabricator task T174519).
  • The multimedia team at WMF is gaining expertise in Wikibase, and unblocking further development for Structured Commons, by completing the MediaInfo extension for Wikibase.
Stay up to date!

Warmly, your community liaison, SandraF (WMF) (talk)

Message sent by MediaWiki message delivery - 14:26, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Generating lists of articles created by a sockfarm

I help out a lot at WP:COIN. Often one of the things we do is create lists of articles created by sockfarms, for review and cleanup. An example of such a list is User:Bri/COIbox63. A new case created by Doc James today on COIN (we get 2-3 a week sometimes) made me think this might be better automated. I got as far as creating pagepile 11077 as a test, using a mix of crawling sock categories and manually entered untagged accounts, then got stuck. Is there a way to go forward and get a list of articles created by the accounts in the pagepile? - ☆ Bri (talk) 20:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

I created User:The Voidwalker/createdArticles.js. It should do what you're asking. It only lists pages in the article namespace. To use, import the script, and go to Special:CreatedArticles. There is an option to set the limit of pages to all. This may do weird things. I should later make it so that the listed titles have a link to the page, but I'm out of time to work on that for now. -- The Voidwalker Whispers 02:32, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll try that script out. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:52, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Cite Messages

I am trying to add Wikipedia's notes templates to my wiki (hosted by, aka Fandom). I believe it has the default MediaWiki pages, with the exception of those that were edited. Which MediaWiki pages are needed for the notes templates ({{Notelist}} and {{Efn}} and variants) to work properly? AChildOfGod (Talk | Contribs | Bible Wiki) 19:55, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

For the {{Notelist}}:
  • Template:!! (edit) (template protected)
  • Template:Code (edit) (template protected)
  • Template:Documentation (edit) (template protected)
  • Template:Documentation subpage (edit) (template protected)
  • Template:Dummy ref (edit)
  • Template:Dummy reference (edit)
  • Template:Efn (edit) (template protected)
  • Template:Efn-lr (edit) (semi-protected)
  • Template:Main other (edit) (protected)
  • Template:Markup (edit)
  • Template:Markup/row (edit)
  • Template:Notelist (edit) (template protected)
  • Template:Notelist-lr (edit) (semi-protected)
  • Template:Notelist/doc (edit)
  • Template:Ombox (edit) (protected)
  • Template:Para (edit) (template protected)
  • Template:Reflist (edit) (protected)
  • Template:Tag (edit) (template protected)
  • Template:Tlx (edit) (template protected)
  • Template:Transwiki guide (edit)
  • Template:Yes/no (edit)
  • Template:Yesno (edit) (protected)
  • Module:Arguments (edit) (protected)
  • Module:Category handler (edit) (template protected)
  • Module:Category handler/blacklist (edit) (template protected)
  • Module:Category handler/config (edit) (template protected)
  • Module:Category handler/data (edit) (template protected)
  • Module:Category handler/shared (edit) (template protected)
  • Module:Check for unknown parameters (edit) (template protected)
  • Module:Documentation (edit) (template protected)
  • Module:Documentation/config (edit) (template protected)
  • Module:Effective protection expiry (edit) (template protected)
  • Module:Effective protection level (edit) (template protected)
  • Module:File link (edit) (template protected)
  • Module:Message box (edit) (protected)
  • Module:Message box/configuration (edit) (protected)
  • Module:Namespace detect/config (edit) (protected)
  • Module:Namespace detect/data (edit) (protected)
  • Module:No globals (edit) (template protected)
  • Module:Protection banner (edit) (template protected)
  • Module:Protection banner/config (edit) (protected)
  • Module:Yesno (edit) (protected)
Ruslik_Zero 20:16, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
No, those are used only because of the documentation. See Template:Notelist/Transwiki guide for the former template. {{repeat|p|3}}ery (talk) 20:28, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Spaces between "coup in" and "States suspended" not registering at Foreign relations of the United States

I was looking at the article when I noticed that it was saying this at the top of the Oceania section:

...which came to power through a military coupin December 2006. The United Statessuspended $2.5 million in aid money pending a review of the situation...

These spaces were there in the source when I went to edit, but not visibly, so I tried to fix it by adding second spaces, but that didn't work either, so I undid it and left a note to let future editors know about the problem. -- MrHumanPersonGuy (talk) 10:13, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

The text should be in the Fiji section of the table, not at the top. I suspect the recent IP blanking caused the table format to corrupt, so I've reverted it to the last good version. Optimist on the run (talk) 10:36, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Inside the table code was text not belonging to a cell and therefore displayed outside the table. This can give odd results like the below example where the source has a space but some code cleanup process removes it from the generated html.

[[spaced]] words


spaced words

PrimeHunter (talk) 11:36, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

 Works for me @PrimeHunter: I did send a page purge, but these are displaying appropriately for me - are you still showing an issue? — xaosflux Talk 02:10, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Xaosflux, the issue posted by MrHumanPersonGuy was fixed with this revert of the Foreign relations article as mentioned above by Optimist on the run. Or do you mean that the result of PrimeHunter's example doesn't look like:
which is how it looks to me. --Pipetricker (talk) 08:07, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, Foreign relations of the United States#Oceania was fixed. The space was removed from the generated html before the fix and still is in my example which says:
<a href="/wiki/Spaced" title="Spaced">spaced</a>words
It would be strange if you see a space there. PrimeHunter (talk) 09:25, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Section edit tags on this page were messed up

Moments ago, I wanted to edit #Cite templates with |script-title= (non-ascii + ascii) |url=... |url-access=registration on this page. When I clicked the edit link next to #Cite templates with |script-title= (non-ascii + ascii) |url=... |url-access=registration, it started an edit session for the next section, #Fixing interwiki links?. So I clicked the edit link next to #Skin disappeared, the section preceding #Cite templates with |script-title= (non-Cite templates with |script-title= (non-ascii + ascii) |url=... |url-access=registration, and it started an edit session for #Cite templates Cite templates with |script-title= (non-ascii + ascii) |url=... |url-access=registration. I completed that edit and, well, the problem isn't reproducible now, but this really happened! —Anomalocaris (talk) 07:08, 26 October 2017 (UTC)]]

@Anomalocaris: One possibility is page archiving. You might have come to this page when this version was current, or perhaps an even earlier one. If you did't reload the page for some hours before attempting to edit the section that you mention, this archiving edit may have occurred in the meantime. This will have altered the section numbering for all sections from "IP was somehow able to edit a semi-protected page" onwards, so that each one now had a true section number one less than the number used by the "[edit]" links in that old version. So using one of those out-of-date "[edit]" links will have caused editing of the section below. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:16, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, section edit links don't name the section but just have a url ending in a section number like &action=edit&section=32. If the wrong section is edited then you can try to bypass your cache or purge the page. Or just click another edit link like you did, or manually change the number in the url. PrimeHunter (talk) 09:39, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Redrose64 and PrimeHunter: I though I had something serious, and I'm glad to see it's nothing. Thank you for explanations! —Anomalocaris (talk) 10:19, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Recovering account?

Hi everyone, I used to be a pretty active Wikipedia contributor for about a decade, but took a long hiatus where 1) forgot my password, 2) lost access to the recovery email I have on file.

I'd love to resume contributing to Wikipedia, and would much prefer to use the old account I have rather than the new one, but I can't use the traditional recovery method. Is there any way admins could grant me access to my (still existing) account if I provide my expired recovery email address or anything of the sort?

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:54, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

See Help:Logging_in#What_if_I_forget_the_password.3F. In short - you will need to create a new account unless you are "long-established" and can very strongly prove that you are the same editor as the old account (for example via encryption certificates or secret preimages of published hashes). — xaosflux Talk 02:07, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
If you can satisfy that criteria, please describe how here. — xaosflux Talk 15:16, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

"undo" feature: the pre-filled edit summary for IPv6 users

I just noticed that the "undo" feature makes the pre-filled edit summary for edits by IPv6 users look like "Undid revision 803835351 by Special:Contributions/2600:8807:A200:DFC0:D890:F762:DA51:9112".
The "Special:Contributions/" part obviously being unwanted. --Pipetricker (talk) 15:23, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

I think MediaWiki:Undo-summary is the page that controls that pre-filled summary. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:34, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Correct, and there are two versions given the length of the string.
Undid revision 803835351 by Special:Contributions/2600:8807:A200:DFC0:D890:F762:DA51:9112 → 93 characters of code (current version)
Undid revision 803835351 by 2600:8807:A200:DFC0:D890:F762:DA51:9112 (talk) → 194 characters of code (previous version)
The previous version only allowed 61 additional characters to provide a reasoning. See also: MediaWiki_talk:Undo-summary#IPv6_uses_194_of_255_characters. Nihlus 15:44, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, now I realize that piping the IPv6 number consumes too many characters, and avoiding that is worth the ugliness when lacking a better solution. Has there been any thought about making MediaWiki handle this better? When noticing this, it jumped out as looking plain wrong, even though it's a sensible workaround. @PrimeHunter. --Pipetricker (talk) 16:53, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
This would be a new feature request, see WP:BUGS for instructions on how to make these. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:08, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I'll give it a try. --Pipetricker (talk) 08:41, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Mostly this would be fixed with longer edit summaries (phab:T6715), the work for which has mostly been done in phab:T166732, but deploying it to Wikimedia is invasive and will occur very carefully. That deploy process is tracked at phab:T166733 and likely will take a few more months. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. Then maybe I won't bother. --Pipetricker (talk) 09:34, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Revert of any user with a very long username is affected

Since my complaint above and the next complaint and an earlier discussion and also the MediaWiki:Undo-summary discussion all had "IPv6" in their headings, we should note that this issue of course affects other very long user names as well. --Pipetricker (talk) 15:59, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Context-specific editor not allowing capital letters

Hi, I have suffered in my editing for about a week, since the rollout of new editor interface which I am using now. Very frequently, but not always, when I try to insert a capital letter or any character which involves the shift key (including the colon character, angle brackets, squiggly brackets at least on my keyboard), the cursor jumps to the left/beginning of the paragraph. It is exasperating! This is using Chrome browser in a Windows 10 environment, with whatever javascript or whatever user-specific settings that I have and don't particularly know about. What is going on? It seems worse editing in the Imicrosoft edge browser. It doesn't happen much in new text entry; it is horrible when I am trying to edit a reference or other template call. Help! --doncram 22:52, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

The new editor interface is a beta feature and not default. You can get the normal source editor by disabling "Automatically enable all new beta features" and "New wikitext mode" at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:21, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you! It makes sense that I was one of relatively few editors experiencing this via my apparent previous choice to enable beta features, because otherwise WikiProject NRHP and other places would have blown up with complaints. I see that going to that preferences section also allows me to contribute feedback about the "New wikitext mode", which i will do. --doncram 00:01, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
This sounds like Timeshifter's bug. Doncram also reported it at mw:Topic:U0e95r7bhm0a7dsw. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:48, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Visibility of articles created from redirects

Patrolling new articles, I came yesterday across this article: Serapeum of Alexandria. It was started as a redirect in February, and then started as an article yesterday (by moving text from another article with an attribution, but this is irrelevant for the story; the article is not problematic in any sense). I was checking for copyvio, which is part of my workflow when I deal with NPP, and I found that the article was actually indexed by Google. If I am right, it was indexed by Google because the redirect, which existed here for 8 months, allowed the article to bypass the 3 month threshold of not being indexed by search engines. Again, if this is correct, this is a bug, not a feature. I would propose to count the three months from the date of an actual creation of the article in the case the preceding history only includes redirects (and possibly blanking redirects, just in case).--Ymblanter (talk) 07:25, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

There's no technical difference between a page that exists with the content of indicating a redirect and the content of an article. What you propose is therefore not easily implementable. But as allways feature requests can be filed in phabricator. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:18, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. I believe we need consensus here that the feature is needed (or at least there is no consensus against implementing it) before we file a phabricator ticket.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:05, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
You don't need to get written proof of consensus in advance. If the relevant team believes that it's necessary or appropriate, then they'll tell you. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:50, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Tool to detect SPA-owned articles?

I wonder if there is any way to create a tool that would detect articles that were either created by SPAs and/or are heavily trafficked by them. I think such a tool would be of great utility to fighting paid editing. Pinging Smallbones in case he has any thoughts on the subject. Perhaps one of our preexisting tools already have that capacity and I'm not aware of it. Coretheapple (talk) 17:18, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Search intitle: doesn't work right with quoted strings that include a space

intitle:"word1 word2" (notice the space between the words) returns results that do not have the search string in the title.

It seems to happen for any search string with a space in it.

So, intitle:"Milan" produces only items with Milan in their titles, while intitle:"in Milan" includes items which has this in the title, but also includes items that have this only in the article contents and not in the title. This seriously waters down the search results.

What gives?

Is there a way to return only items with "in Milan" in their titles? The Transhumanist (talk) 00:39, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

This happens to me too. Rather annoying. It seems contrary to spec too? If my recollection is correct it was working correctly, or at least much better, two to three months ago? Eno Lirpa (talk) 00:46, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
As regex intitle:/in[ ]Milan/ none found. -- GreenC 00:52, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
I think it's because "in" is a common word which is ignored in some search contexts. I get 400 hits on both intitle:"in Milan" and "in Milan" intitle:Milan. The latter seems to be the actual search performed for both. intitle:"word1 word2" works as expected in my tests with two uncommon words. For example, intitle:"Inter Milan" gives me 56 hits, and all have the quote in the title. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
This should work: Login to (press "OK" when prompted). Enter SQL query SELECT * FROM page WHERE page_namespace = 0 AND page_title LIKE "%in_Milan%" LIMIT 500; -- GreenC 02:29, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
I talked to the search engineers and they let me know that it's a feature that they would like to develop, but have not had the time. I added a note in the task tracking this work that ya'll would like to see this. CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 18:58, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

RfC: Slight tweak to the wording of the anonymous contributions and talk page footers

There is an RfC active at MediaWiki talk:Sp-contributions-footer-anon discussing the wording of these footers. - Vanstrat (talk) 23:21, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Si on oublie le "/wiki"... the message is surprising

Everyone knows that you can often (depending on what characters are in the title) construct the URL for a Wikipedia article by simply prefixing to the title. And if you forget the /wiki part and write something like, the server will kindly give you a page that links to the correct page, saying:

We could not find the above page on our servers.
Did you mean: /wiki/Paris

That's great if you're working in English, but what if you're not?

In fact, if you write or, you will similarly get a page linking to the correct or respectively. But in each case, the wording on that page is in English! Surely it should be in the language indicated by the subdomain.

From this I also wonder if maybe there are other error messages that the servers produce that are similarly in English when they should be in other languages. -- (talk) 23:16, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

This is phab:T14302 from 2007: "404, 503 error pages should be localised". PrimeHunter (talk) 23:32, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, I'm not surprised it's been noticed before, but is there perhaps a chance of its being fixed in the next 10 years? -- (talk) 01:58, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Popups and minor edits

Using popups, when I hover over any "hist" link on my watchlist, it shows every single edit to every article without exception as being a minor edit. Now I'm wondering how long it's been doing this and if I've only just noticed. When I load a history page, it's all normal. Anyone else? RivertorchFIREWATER 15:36, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

@Rivertorch: I’ve been doing some long overdue maintenance on nav popups and this was a result of that. Should be fixed now. You might see some more minor breakages the coming months as I beat this behemoth of 2003-2007 javascript code into submission. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 19:30, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, it seems to be fine now. Thanks for responding. More importantly, thanks for your work in maintaining what is surely the most useful and functional tool around. RivertorchFIREWATER 03:42, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Notifications stuck at "1"

Log in, get a blue "4" for notifications. Click on it, I get the annoying dedicated "notifications" page instead of the useful dropdown (no idea why I get one or the other, seems to happen randomly). I tag as "read" two enwiki notifications, tag as read the first non-enwiki notification, and the second non-enwiki one disappears from the list and can't be clicked. The counter is now stuck at a grey "1".

Now, if I click that "1", I get the dropdown with "More notices from another wiki", and when I click "view 1 notice" I get the name of the wiki (Mediawiki) but no page to visit. I can click the small blue button at the top right, and the grey "1" disappears ... for about a second, and then it reappears. Rather annoying. Am I the only one with this issue, or is this some regression / bug with the most recent Thursday deployment? Fram (talk) 07:10, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Bot spike 2013

I know that I knew at some point, but what bot caused the early 2013 spike in Wikipedia's total edits seen here [18]? Dragons flight (talk) 18:26, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

@Dragons flight: Replacement of interwiki links with Wikidata items; some of these edits were done by Addbot and Legobot but I haven't checked. Jc86035 (talk) 10:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. Dragons flight (talk) 10:43, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Hotcat glitch

I made this edit to a fully-protected article, not realising said article had been fully protected. Since the edit could potentially be seen as admin abuse (using ability to edit to impose my edit where a non-admin could make said edit or revert it), would it be possible to tweak HOTCAT so that it brings up the edit page on trying to save, thus alerting the editor that the article is fully protected. This would give the editor the chance to bail out of the edit and go to the article talk page. For the record, I reverted the edit after discussion at the talk page. It was not my intention when making the edit to use my tools to gain an advantage. Mjroots (talk) 16:24, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

@Mjroots: HotCat feature suggestions can be requested at Wikipedia talk:HotCat. — xaosflux Talk 17:31, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: Thank you, will repost there. Mjroots (talk) 17:41, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
@Mjroots: actually you are probably better off posting to commons:MediaWiki talk:Gadget-HotCat.js - as it is maintained there, we actually only load their script to enwiki. — xaosflux Talk 17:58, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, taken there. Mjroots (talk) 18:12, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Timeline on band article

At Torche_(band)#Timeline, the timeline, to me, is completely corrupted with lines smeared everywhere (see image).

The previous revision looks fine, yet the only change made was a wikilink in a completely different section. Any idea what's going on here? Black Kite (talk) 23:07, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

  • Hm. I just made an effectively null edit (decapitalised one letter) and it looks fine again. Weird. Black Kite (talk) 23:10, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Interwiki problem

These two articles: mile run & two mile run had wrong interwiki link to Farsi. I have fixed the link in wikidata and it shows up correctly in Farsi wiki but on the English wiki it's still showing up wrong even though when you click on edit and go to wikidata page the links there are correct. Bardia90 (talk) 18:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

@Bardia90: You might need to WP:PURGE the cache after making edits like that. I have done so on both pages. Nihlus 19:00, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
@Nihlus: Thank you for the information! Bardia90 (talk) 20:11, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Displaying pictures on mobile version

After using & editing Wikipedia for several years using a tablet set to "landscape" mode, I've just noticed that when two pictures are included next to each other, they instead stack one above the other. For example, the images of the band members at HIM (Finnish band)#History appear on my screen with Ville Valo above Mige, even though the caption says "Ville Valo (left) and Mige (right) formed His Infernal Majesty in 1991". It's a minor niggle, but is there any way with the mobile version to detect which mode is being displayed and toggle between "left / right" and "top / bottom"? ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 19:00, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

@Dom Kaos: This is covered by MOS:IMAGES#References from article text. In short: assume nothing about where images will be displayed. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:55, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
The example uses {{Multiple image}} with a common caption in the footer parameter. I have mentioned the issue in the documentation.[19] My mobile tests with individually specified widths gave "line wrapping" of the images when the total number of image pixels in a "line" exceeded 320 − 4×(number of images). I don't know how consistent this is but for me it seemed independent of window width and zoom. I only tested the mobile version in a desktop browser. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:17, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Rollback edit marked minor

Interestingly this edit was marked as minor (and the result of me clicking rollback). I noticed that ClueBot's revert was also marked minor. Is this a bug? Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 18:08, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

@PaleoNeonate: working as designed Rollbacks are automatically marked as a "minor edit" (c.f. Wikipedia:Rollback). — xaosflux Talk 18:52, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 18:54, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
The idea, I believe, is that rollback is designed for specific purposes where public review is unneeded, so they are marked as such. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:32, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Would you mind looking under the hood?

Hi guys,

I've been writing scripts to view and to automate the development of outlines, and I was wondering if you would take a look to see if there is anything I could be doing better (in my programming approach, programming style, etc.). So that other programmers can follow along with how the source code works, I've provided extensive notes on the scripts' talk pages.

So far, there is:

  • User:The Transhumanist/OutlineViewAnnotationToggler.js – this one provides a menu item to turn annotations on/off, so you can view lists bare when you want to (without annotations). When done, it will work on (the embedded lists of) all pages, not just outlines. Currently it is limited to outlines only, for development and testing purposes. It supports hotkey activation/deactivation of annotations, but that feature currently lacks an accurate viewport location reset for retaining the location on screen that the user was looking at. The program also needs an indicator that tells the user it is still on. Otherwise, you might wonder why a bare list has annotations in edit mode, when you go in to add some. :) Though it is functional as is. Check it out. After installing it, look at Outline of cell biology, and press ⇧ Shift+Alt+a. And again.
  • User:The Transhumanist/RedlinksRemover.js – strips out entries in outlines that are nothing but a redlink. It removes them right out of the tree structure. But only end nodes (i.e., not parent nodes, which we need to keep). It delinks redlinks that have non-redlink offspring, or that have or are embedded in an annotation. It does not yet recognize entries that lack a bullet (it treats those as embedded).

It is my objective to build a set of scripts that fully automate the process of creating outlines. This end goal is a long way off (AI-complete?). In the meantime, I hope to increase editor productivity as much as I can. Fifty percent automation would double an editor's productivity. I think I could reach 80% automation (a five-fold increase in productivity) within a couple years.

There's more:

  • User:The Transhumanist/StripSearchInWikicode.js – another script, which strips WP search results down to a bare list of links, and inserts wikilink formatting for ease of insertion of those links into lists. This is useful for gathering links for outlines. I'd like this script to sort its results. So, if you know how, or know someone who knows how, please let me know. A more immediate problem is that the output is interlaced with CR/LFs. I can't figure out how to get rid of them. Stripping them out in WikEd via regex is a tedious extra step. It would be nice to track them down and remove them with the script.

I look forward to your comments, questions, ideas, and suggestions. The Transhumanist 08:23, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

@The Transhumanist: You had already posted something almost identical at Wikipedia:Bot requests#Userscripts, and the future of outlines, and neither of these threads indicates where discussion should take place; see WP:MULTI. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:33, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
@Redrose64: Here is fine. I posted it separately there because they would consider it in another context, that being in regard to bot policy. Like, how much automation is acceptable. I want to make sure I don't step on anybody's toes. The Transhumanist 09:46, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
@The Transhumanist: where you use local storage.getItem() or setItem() you should always wrap that in try catch, as it can fail at any moment (even if you checked previously). This can be due to the browser running out of storage space for the domain, or because the browser is running in privacy mode or with an ad blocker extensions or something. Also, your new RegExp() calls should be lifted outside of the for loops, so that they aren't continuously recreated. For wpTextbox1.value, realise that sometimes the content might be managed by an editor (The syntaxhighlighting beta does this for instance). We use the jquery.textSelection plugin to abstract way from these differences. Don't check document.title, check mw.config.get( 'wgTitle' ) or mw.config.get( 'wgPageName' ). And when you use mw.util.addPortlink, you have to ensure that the mediawiki.util plugin is loaded already, which you can do by using mw.loader.using. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:47, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
I will be sure to use these techniques, to the best of my ability. I've copied your post to some of my script talk pages so I won't forget. Thank you. The Transhumanist 08:03, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Firefox on XP

I am not sure where I should post it so I post it here. From my understanding, IE on XP will no longer be able to connect to Wikimedia sites soon.

My parents are using Firefox with latest patch on their XP system - old computer, so stuck there. However, Wikimedia server erroneously detects the browser as IE and refuses connection. Is there anyone can help in this? Thanks. SYSS Mouse (talk) 01:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

@SYSS Mouse: Which exact version of Firefox is used on that machine? (For context: "Changes later this week" on meta:Tech/News/2017/42.) --Malyacko (talk) 06:03, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
SYSS Mouse, your problem isn't what you think it is. You problem is in the words "old computer, so stuck there" A computer that runs Windows 10 will cost you less than $100 including shipping. See [ ].
Seriously, running XP is a terrible idea. Support for Windows XP ended April 8, 2014. Microsoft no longer provides security updates for the Windows XP operating system. Antivirus programs ignore malware that only runs on XP. More and more applications and websites simply do not run on Windows XP or the old browsers that run in XP. It is only going to get worse. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:49, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't believe there's any attempt to actually check for Internet Explorer. If you're seeing this message, it's detecting the browser using an obsolete cypher for the HTTPS connection and assuming that's IE on XP. The bottom of that error page (unfortunately underneath the TL;DR in several different languages) has some more details:

We have removed support for the legacy 3DES cryptographic cipher, which your browser software relies on to connect to our sites. This is usually caused by using Internet Explorer on Windows XP, but could also be caused by other ancient browsers or user agents, or could be interference from corporate or personal "Web Security" software which actually downgrades connection security.

Anomie 14:33, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Forefox 52 ESR, the latest one.SYSS Mouse (talk) 15:10, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
How old the computer is? What is the actual configuration? It may be possible to update to Win 7 with some hardware upgrades. Ruslik_Zero 20:20, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
As AnomieX quoted, this could be interference from equally (to IE) broken old "web security" software proxying requests, or the machine could be infected with malware. Try testing your Firefox against some user agent SSL test URLs such as: or . What do they say? BBlack (WMF) (talk) 20:20, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
SYSS Mouse, ^^^. We're interested in figuring this out. Thanks. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:52, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

(Refactored indent) @BBlack (WMF): @Elitre (WMF): Sorry I am away from that computer for a couple of days. SYSS Mouse (talk) 16:49, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

@Elitre (WMF): Tested. Everything seems normal. It loads properly. (I am not sure what are you looking for. I don;t have the expertise) SYSS Mouse (talk) 02:04, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
@SYSS Mouse: Can you paste the output of one of those client tests (from the broken Firefox install) somewhere we can see? The latter one ( ) might be simpler as the output is mostly plain text. BBlack (WMF) (talk) 13:33, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Overhauling the lang-xx templates for more selective italics behavior

FYI: Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see: Template talk:Lang#Parameter to selectively disable auto-italics in the Lang-xx templates
 — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  07:17, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Removal of zero-width spaces

Resolved: User was refered to the correct venue, where a discussion has started on the issue. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:50, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure where to put this, but FrescoBot probably shouldn't be removing intentionally-placed zero-width spaces like in this edit. Jc86035 (talk) 13:18, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Start with the bot's talk page; if this is a redirect (usually to the operator's talk page), use the redirect target in stead - in this case, User talk:Basilicofresco. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:59, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Migrate ReferenceTooltips to jQuery 3

See MediaWiki talk:Gadget-ReferenceTooltips.js#jQuery 3. Helder 11:57, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Tech News: 2017-44

00:20, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Cite templates with |script-title= (non-ascii + ascii) |url=... |url-access=registration

In the version of 01:19, 20 October 2017 (now the current version) of Global Buddhist Network, there is a Lint error: Misnested tag with different rendering in HTML5 and HTML4 involving tag span located in the {{reflist}} template. With some experiments in my sandbox, I narrowed it down to this citation:

  • {{cite conference|last1=Buaban|first1=Jesada|date=August 2016|script-title=ความทรงจำในดวงแก้ว: ความทรงจำที่แปรเปลี่ยนไปเกี่ยวกับวัดพระธรรมกายภายใต้ปริมณฑลรัฐบาลทหารปี พ.ศ. 2557–2559|trans-title=Memory in Crystal: Changing Memory on Dhammakaya Movement under the Umbrella of Military Junta 2014–2016|url=|format=pdf|conference=The science of remembering and the art of forgetting 2nd conference|language=th|location=Songkhla-Nakharin University, [[Songkhla]]|publisher=Southeast Asian Studies Program, [[Walailak University]]|page=3|url-access=registration|conference-url=}}

With more experiments in my sandbox, it seems that the lint error happens with any {{cite}} template with parameters |script-title=(non-ascii + ascii) |url=any |url-access=registration. It won't happen if |script-title= is all non-ascii. It won't happen if |title= is used instead of |script-title=. This is demonstrated with several examples in User:Anomalocaris/sandbox/Lint Test. —Anomalocaris (talk) 08:58, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Known problem; not yet resolved. When you notice anything amiss with cs1|2 templates your first stop should be at Help talk:Citation Style 1, not here.
Trappist the monk (talk) 09:31, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
OK, Trappist the monk, thanks, and I'll try to remember to go there if there is a next time. —Anomalocaris (talk) 09:43, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
And in case anyone is interested, I got rid of the lint error in Global Buddhist Network by changing |script-title= to |title= and nesting the Thai-ascii title with two apostrophes before and two apostrophes after to reverse the italicization of the title. —Anomalocaris (talk) 09:54, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
I would suggest that such fixes are inappropriate. Yeah, 'unfixed' there is a problem but once the issue is remedied in the cs1|2 module suite, the problem goes away; but, 'fixed' cs1|2 templates in wikitext will, almost certainly, never be restored to their correct form. This error in the module suite is not fatal, there is time to remedy it properly. I think that you should undo your 'fix'.
Trappist the monk (talk) 11:01, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Trappist the monk: I have reservations, but I suppose that this bug will be fixed before Wikipedia goes (to make it possible for Wikipedia to go) HTML5 compliant, so I undid my 'fix' as you suggested, and I left a note there <!--script-title generates Lint error: Misnested tag with different rendering in HTML5 and HTML4 here -->, because the lint error is localized to {{reflist}}, which makes it hard to find; it could be in any <ref>. Anomalocaris (talk) 06:58, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
You left in the italic wiki-markup which you should not do; |script-title= disables the cs1|2 template's automatic italics but does nothing about editor-inserted italics. I think that you should also remove the hidden comment because, just like the 'fix', the comment will remain in the wikitext for who knows how long after the next version of the cs1|2 module suite goes live.
The cause of the misnesting has been removed from Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox. Here is the {{cite conference}} sandbox rendering of your citation (do not use this in article space):
<cite class="citation conference">Buaban, Jesada (August 2016). Written at Songkhla-Nakharin University, [[Songkhla]]. <span class="cs1-lock-registration" title="Free registration required">[ <bdi>ความทรงจำในดวงแก้ว: ความทรงจำที่แปรเปลี่ยนไปเกี่ยวกับวัดพระธรรมกายภายใต้ปริมณฑลรัฐบาลทหารปี พ.ศ. 2557–2559</bdi>]</span> &#91;''Memory in Crystal: Changing Memory on Dhammakaya Movement under the Umbrella of Military Junta 2014–2016''&#93; <span class="cs1-format">(pdf)</span>. [ The science of remembering and the art of forgetting 2nd conference] (in Thai). Songkhla-Nakharin University, [[Songkhla]]: Southeast Asian Studies Program, [[Walailak University]]. p.&nbsp;3.</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=conference&rft.btitle=%E0%B8%84%E0%B8%A7%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%88%E0%B8%B3%E0%B9%83%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%94%E0%B8%A7%E0%B8%87%E0%B9%81%E0%B8%81%E0%B9%89%E0%B8%A7%3A+%E0%B8%84%E0%B8%A7%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%88%E0%B8%B3%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%B5%E0%B9%88%E0%B9%81%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%A3%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%B5%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%A2%E0%B8%99%E0%B9%84%E0%B8%9B%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%B5%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%A2%E0%B8%A7%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%B1%E0%B8%9A%E0%B8%A7%E0%B8%B1%E0%B8%94%E0%B8%9E%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B0%E0%B8%98%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A2%E0%B8%A0%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A2%E0%B9%83%E0%B8%95%E0%B9%89%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%93%E0%B8%91%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B1%E0%B8%90%E0%B8%9A%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%AB%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%B5+%E0%B8%9E.%E0%B8%A8.+2557%E2%80%932559&" class="Z3988"></span> <span class="cs1-visible-error error citation-comment">Invalid <code class="cs1-code">&#124;script-title=</code>: missing prefix ([[Help:CS1 errors#script_parameter|help]])</span>[[Category:CS1 errors: script parameters]][[Category:CS1 Thai-language sources (th)]]'"`UNIQ--templatestyles-00000042-QINU`"'
Buaban, Jesada (August 2016). Written at Songkhla-Nakharin University, Songkhla. ความทรงจำในดวงแก้ว: ความทรงจำที่แปรเปลี่ยนไปเกี่ยวกับวัดพระธรรมกายภายใต้ปริมณฑลรัฐบาลทหารปี พ.ศ. 2557–2559 [Memory in Crystal: Changing Memory on Dhammakaya Movement under the Umbrella of Military Junta 2014–2016] (pdf). The science of remembering and the art of forgetting 2nd conference (in Thai). Songkhla-Nakharin University, Songkhla: Southeast Asian Studies Program, Walailak University. p. 3. Invalid |script-title=: missing prefix (help)
The claim that the 'problem' is in {{reflist}} is clearly false. You should report that as a bug.
Trappist the monk (talk) 10:15, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Trappist the monk: I don't see it as a bug, I see it as an inconvenience. What the linter sees is code after much processing. That processing includes converting all of the {{cite}} templates and moving all of the <ref>s to {{reflist}}. There is a burden on the user. Such lint errors can be found by manually removing <ref> tags while leaving their contents in place; if necessary copying the text from a talk page edit window to an article edit window, and using the LintHint tool at User:PerfektesChaos/js/lintHint. With these steps, it is possible to locate any lint error buried in a <ref>. —Anomalocaris (talk) 02:22, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Help with Attached KML Error

Hello. The Google route map broke when I moved this page from "Grand Rounds Scenic Byway" to Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway. Can anyone here understand Template:Attached KML/Grand Rounds Scenic Byway enough to fix it? I apologize for not thinking of this beforehand. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:25, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi SusanLesch. I did some experimenting and fixed it. There is a parameter to tell the template to use the original name as shown in the diff. StarryGrandma (talk) 00:05, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Wow, StarryGrandma, it's perfect. Thank you kindly! -SusanLesch (talk) 03:43, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Misaligned table cell lines

I brought this up in a recently archived discussion without a helpful answer, and it looks like I wasn't the only one who had this problem. There is an issue with the alignment of lines in wikitables, i.e. a line may be off by one pixel in one cell, and this seems to affect both Internet Explorer and Microsoft Edge. Is there really no way of fixing this? This is pretty frustrating.--Nevéselbert 17:00, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

You got many helpful answers last time. Imagine going to a doctor and saying "My foot has something wrong with it." How much help would you get with just that description, especially if the doctor asked you followup questions that you did not answer?
If you want help, you need to provide information that is required for troubleshooting. As you are aware, this problem was difficult for all or most of us to reproduce. Once again, you have not provided a link to an article, you have not provided a specific OS version, and you have not provided a specific browser version. Please do that. Some of the people who helped you in the thread linked above listed specific articles and browser versions that were working just fine.
Here's what a helpful report would look like: "I have Windows 10 with all of the latest patches (as of October 27), and I am using Internet Explorer 11.608.15063.0. When I look at Chris_Janson#Extended_plays, the cells in the "Details" column of the table have a bottom border that is one pixel lower than the cells to the right and left. When I look at the page in Microsoft Edge (version XXXX), Firefox (version XXXX), and Chrome (version XXXX), the cells look fine. Can someone help me diagnose this problem?"
When you are experiencing a problem that other people are not normally experiencing, it is helpful to provide enough information that people might have a fighting chance to reproduce the problem themselves. Also pinging TenPoundHammer, who might be able to provide a good bug report for us. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:04, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
@Jonesey95: I agree that I should have been more detailed in my query, but I should note that I did open a Phabricator report with a screenshot of the problem I was experiencing. Based on your template of a helpful report, I can say that I have Windows 10 with all of the latest patches (as of October 31), and I am using Internet Explorer 11.674.15063.0. When I look at List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom#Since 1721, the cells in the "Name" column of the table have a bottom border that is one pixel lower than the cells to the right and left. When I look at the page in Microsoft Edge (version 40.15063.674.0), I am experiencing the same issue but with a different set of cells in the same section. Can someone help me diagnose this problem? I haven't checked Chrome yet, and similar to Edge the problem may be with a different set of cells. Thank-you though for the feedback, which I will certainly take into account in future.--Nevéselbert 15:20, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Still the same issue...

So, considering that nobody notified me of either removal or not removal of autopatrol flag, I decided to check out Google Chrome (as some of your advise here) in order to see notifications better. To my surprise, I still can't see mark this page as patrolled button! So, I don't see it in either Internet Explorer or Google Chrome (but I do see capital N when a new page being created. So, what's going on and how to solve it? Any help will be appreciated.--Biografer (talk) 23:39, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't patrol new pages so I don't know whether anything changed. Currently I have a "Mark this page as patrolled" link on new yellow pages at Special:NewPages when Wikipedia:Page Curation/Help#Curation Toolbar is completely hidden (first minimized on arrow and then hidden on X). When the toolbar is visible I instead have a checkmark in the toolbar with hover text "Mark this page as reviewed". Tested in Firefox and Internet Explorer 11. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:32, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
@Biografer: autopatrol means that your edits are automatically marked as patrolled. Usage of the "mark as patrolled" button is part of the New pages reviewer toolset. N just means "New page" and has nothing to do with patrolled status. If you would like to become a patroller, read through WP:NPP. — xaosflux Talk 13:09, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Two absolutely contradictory replies, but I think I will go with @Xaosflux: on that one (considering that I wasn't aware of October 2016 change). I personally am interested in reviewing newly created sandboxes ant/or talkpages (majority of content to review I see it that way). But, because of my block two days ago, that probably will hinder me from reviewing anything for a time being... Let me know if its OK to join the reviewing team. Thanks.--Biografer (talk) 17:13, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
@Biografer: I suggest starting at Wikipedia:New pages patrol/School if you have already read the overview. Note any editor can follow and edit new pages and recent changes, but extra access is needed to "mark" the page as patrolled. The general guidelines for that access are listed at Wikipedia:New_pages_patrol/Reviewers. If you feel you meet the guidelines or have a reason they should be excepted, post at WP:PERM to request access. Please note, frivolous perm requests may delay future access requests. — xaosflux Talk 18:02, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Also, talkpages and sandboxes are pretty much the lowest priority things that would need patrolling (articles are the highest). — xaosflux Talk 18:40, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

WP 1.0 bot just broke non-ASCII links

User:WP 1.0 bot maintains tables of article assessments, among other things.

Today its daily update broke the links to categories of a WikiProject whose name includes an en-dash, see [21]

The – characters have been replaced with â

As no-one is maintaining WP 1.0 bot (this is a well-known problem), what else has changed to cause this? – Fayenatic London 07:34, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Its next daily update reversed the change and fixed the links.[22]Fayenatic London 19:20, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Wikilink font colors

According to MW:Help:Extension:Linter/obsolete-tag, The deprecated tag <font color=x size=y face=z> should be replaced by <span style="color: x; font-size: y; font-family: z;">. True! But there's a strange difference in the behavior of <font color=x>[[Wikilink]]</font> and <span style="color: x;>[[Wikilink]]</span>. Look at these examples:

  • <font color="green">[[Green]]</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: green;">[[Green]]</span>: Green
  • <font color="#00FF00">[[Green]]</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: #00FF00;">[[Green]]</span>: Green
  • <span style="color: #00FF00;">[[Green]]</span>: Green

Viewing the source, we see that the examples with <font> insert font code inside the href, viz:

  • <font color="green">[[Green]]</font> converts to <a href="/wiki/Green" title="Green"><font color="green">Green</font></a>, but
  • <span style="color: green;">[[Green]]</span> converts to <span style="color: green;"><a href="/wiki/Green" title="Green">Green</a></span>

Why are these methods of markup not treated identically? How should editors deal with this discrepancy when trying to de-lint articles laden with <font> tags?—Anomalocaris (talk) 05:03, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

If you use the proper Hex value for Green and stop trying to use Wikilinks in your examples they are identical. Also, your fourth example tries to close a <span> with a </font>.
Result with plain text:
  • <font color="green">Green</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: green;">Green</span>: Green
  • <font color="#008000">Green</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: #008000;">Green</span>: Green

But what about the wikilinks?

Result with red Wikilink:
  • <font color="red">This contains a [[red]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a red Wikilink
  • <span style="color: red;">This contains a [[red]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a red Wikilink
  • <font color="#FF0000">This contains a [[red]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a red Wikilink
  • <span style="color: #FF0000;">This contains a [[red]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a red Wikilink
Result with green Wikilink:
  • <font color="green">This contains a [[green]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a green Wikilink
  • <span style="color: green;">This contains a [[green]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a green Wikilink
  • <font color="#008000">This contains a [[green]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a green Wikilink
  • <span style="color: #008000;">This contains a [[green]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a green Wikilink
Result with blue Wikilink:
  • <font color="blue">This contains a [[blue]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a blue Wikilink
  • <span style="color: blue;">This contains a [[blue]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a blue Wikilink
  • <font color="#0000FF">This contains a [[blue]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a blue Wikilink
  • <span style="color: #0000FF;">This contains a [[blue]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a blue Wikilink
Result with uncolored Wikilink:
  • This contains a [[color|uncolored]] Wikilink: This contains a uncolored Wikilink

Result with red Redlink Wikilink:
  • <font color="red">This contains a [[XredX]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a XredX Wikilink
  • <span style="color: red;">This contains a [[XredX]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a XredX Wikilink
  • <font color="#FF0000">This contains a [[XredX]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a XredX Wikilink
  • <span style="color: #FF0000;">This contains a [[XredX]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a XredX Wikilink
Result with green Redlink Wikilink:
  • <font color="green">This contains a [[XgreenX]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a XgreenX Wikilink
  • <span style="color: green;">This contains a [[XgreenX]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a XgreenX Wikilink
  • <font color="#008000">This contains a [[XgreenX]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a XgreenX Wikilink
  • <span style="color: #008000;">This contains a [[XgreenX]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a XgreenX Wikilink
Result with blue Redlink Wikilink:
  • <font color="blue">This contains a [[XblueX]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a XblueX Wikilink
  • <span style="color: blue;">This contains a [[XblueX]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a XblueX Wikilink
  • <font color="#0000FF">This contains a [[XblueX]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a XblueX Wikilink
  • <span style="color: #0000FF;">This contains a [[XblueX]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a XblueX Wikilink
Result with uncolored Redlink Wikilink:
  • This contains a [[XuncoloredX]] Wikilink: This contains a XuncoloredX Wikilink

Conclusion: both text and wikilinks act the same whether you color them with font or span. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:02, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Guy Macon: I fixed the fourth example above where I closed a <span> with a </font>.
The two methods of markup, which should be identical, are identical when the modified text includes no wikilink at all, or more than a wikilink. When it consists of a wikilink, no more and no less, the two methods of markup diverge:
  • <font color="green">[[Green]]</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: green;">[[Green]]</span>: Green
  • <font color="#00FF00">[[Green]]</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: #00FF00;">[[Green]]</span>: Green
  • <font color="green"> [[Green]]</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: green;"> [[Green]]</span>: Green
  • <font color="#00FF00"> [[Green]]</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: #00FF00;"> [[Green]]</span>: Green
Thank you for your efforts so far. —Anomalocaris (talk) 08:27, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Same as above, but with just the Wikilinks (no leading and trailing text):
Result with red:
  • <font color="red">[[red]]</font>: red
  • <span style="color: red;">[[red]]</span>: red
  • <font color="#FF0000">[[red]]</font>: red
  • <span style="color: #FF0000;">[[red]]</span>: red
Result with green:
  • <font color="green">[[green]]</font>: green
  • <span style="color: green;">[[green]]</span>: green
  • <font color="#008000">[[green]]</font>: green
  • <span style="color: #008000;">[[green]]</span>: green
Result with blue:
  • <font color="blue">[[blue]]</font>: blue
  • <span style="color: blue;">[[blue]]</span>: blue
  • <font color="#0000FF">[[blue]]</font>: blue
  • <span style="color: #0000FF;">[[blue]]</span>: blue
Result with uncolored:

Result with red Redlink:
  • <font color="red">[[XredX]]</font>: XredX
  • <span style="color: red;">[[XredX]]</span>: XredX
  • <font color="#FF0000">[[XredX]]</font>: XredX
  • <span style="color: #FF0000;">[[XredX]]</span>: XredX
Result with green Redlink:
  • <font color="green">[[XgreenX]]</font>: XgreenX
  • <span style="color: green;">[[XgreenX]]</span>: XgreenX
  • <font color="#008000">[[XgreenX]]</font>: XgreenX
  • <span style="color: #008000;">[[XgreenX]]</span>: XgreenX
Result with blue Redlink:
  • <font color="blue">[[XblueX]]</font>: XblueX
  • <span style="color: blue;">[[XblueX]]</span>: XblueX
  • <font color="#0000FF">[[XblueX]]</font>: XblueX
  • <span style="color: #0000FF;">[[XblueX]]</span>: XblueX
Result with uncolored Redlink:
New conclusion: I was wrong before. In the specific case of a Wikilink with no surrounding text, they are different!
One final test:
  • <font color="green">[[green]]</font>: green
  • <font color="green"> [[green] ]</font>: green
  • <font color="green">Foo [[green]]</font>: Foo green
  • <font color="green">[[green]] Bar</font>: green Bar
So any surrounding text, even spaces, will fix the problem.
This looks like a bug in the code. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:29, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

I suspect what you are seeing here is caused by the legacy Tidy system rewriting <font>...</font> tags to lie inside <a>...</a> (link) tags, while not doing the same for <span>...</span> tags in the same context. These sorts of anachronistic inconsistencies are among the reasons why Tidy is going to eventually be removed and replaced with a more modern solution. The Linter tool gives users an opportunity to find and fix instances of these nasty old Tidy behaviours. — This, that and the other (talk) 09:06, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @This, that and the other: Some templates, like {{S-line}}, rely on this behaviour to colour links. Should the font tag here be replaced with a template/Lua module that colours links? Jc86035 (talk) 09:33, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
A template that colors Wikilinks breaks the bluelink/redlink behavior that users expect. We shouldn't have templates that do that. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:41, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Then complain or make an edit request at Template talk:S-line; note that this is only done for some Australian railway lines (see e.g. Roma Street railway station) and I agree it would be best to remove the custom styling entirely. Jc86035 (talk) 09:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
If coloring of links is really necessary (for example, to achieve white link text on a dark background) you can use [[target|<span style="color: #0088FF;">text</span>]]: textThis, that and the other (talk) 10:03, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
@This, that and the other: On another note, there are 14,350 templates which use an opening or closing <font> tag. A Lua module adding the <span>...</span> might be necessary to replicate the colouring-of-links behaviour in case the links are on blue backgrounds and wouldn't be visible without the coloration or something. Jc86035 (talk) 10:28, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
In addition, there are some contributors who haven't updated their signatures in years, so the signature leaves font tags everywhere. Leaving aside existing uses which can be bot-corrected, does the software allow the signature definitions to be forcibly fixed or does this have to be changed manually by each of the editors in their preferences? Jc86035 (talk) 10:37, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
@Guy Macon: Discussion started at WT:TRAINS#Sydney styling in Template:S-line. Jc86035 (talk) 10:49, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

  • I discovered this while fixing lint errors on talk pages.
  • I assume that most uses of <font> to alter Wikilink colors occur in user signatures on talk pages.
  • I believe that in article space, Wikilink colors should never be overridden, and any templates that do this should be modified.
  • I believe that this nonstandard behavior of <font color=...>[[Wikilink]]</font> should be removed.
  • If it is to be removed, Wikipedians should be notified, especially those whose signatures rely on this nonstandard behavior.
  • I don't think it's a great loss to have existing signatures on a plethora of talk pages appear in the default link colors even if the author intended a different color.
  • That said, if someone wants to create a tool that facilitates users having their past postings on talk pages edited to move font coloring (preferably expressed using <span style=...> markup) into the wikilink, that is OK.
  • Regardless of whether anything is done about this, all users using <font> in their signatures should be informed that this code is non-compliant with HTML5 and may cause problems later, and they should change their signature to <span style=...> markup.

Anomalocaris (talk) 11:05, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for this new Tidy discovery. We'll introduce a new high-priority linter category to track this .. will probably call this tidy-font-bug to identify pages and templates that will be affected by this Tidy inconsistency. Will have to play with a bunch of different font wikitext snippets and/or read Tidy source code to narrow this down. SSastry (WMF) (talk) 15:46, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

This seems to actually be a very old discovery / issue ( It might be a good idea to review the when dealing with lint errors. Most of it has probably been documented a decade ago. 17:00, 23 October 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk)

I don't think this was documented quite a decade ago, as it was noted in Phabricator on May 11, 2010, 1:45 AM. Unfortunately, nothing was done about it, and some Wikipedians depend on this bug for their signatures to have their desired font colors, while other Wikipedians stumble into it and are perplexed when <font> markup properly recoded into <span> markup behaves differently. Decisions need to be made. We need to systematically inform users with signatures that depend on the bug that they should upgrade their signature to <span> markup so that they will be HTML5 compliant, and also, if there is the intention of fixing this bug eventually, they should upgrade their signature to <span> markup so their future signatures will not change their display color when the bug is fixed. —Anomalocaris (talk) 08:53, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

The whole signature system was a blunder, and results in users wasting time dealing with such things. MediaWiki developers probably realized this a long time ago. For one thing, it needlessly pollutes the link tables, and can easily be used to break a whole page by leaving an unclosed tag, and finally telling the software what it already knows (who added what / where) by signing makes no sense. The system would have probably been order of magnitudes better if it used a tag extension, e.g. <sig userid=123/> or simply if custom signatures were disallowed, but that's water under the bridge. This is an easy to fix technical quirk, blocked by social issues.

A better use of developer's time is to outright ban the use of font tags (and possible other needless tags) when the newer tool is deployed. Rather than making it obsolete, render it inert by removing it from the output. That way users don't have to do anything outside content namespaces, and old signatures can remain unchanged as the relics that they are. Anyway, here's a related fun fact ( that has probably existed for as long as the displaytitle has existed. Oddly enough this isn't even detected by the linter probably because it ends up being interface text:

 {{DISPLAYTITLE:<font color=white>Wikipedia:Sandbox}}

The issue related to the links means that everything aside from links (and other possibly other elements, e.g. text within tables, borders, etc) will be hidden. Funny thing is that when the font issue is fixed, it will make it be possible to hide all content of a simple enough page, and even affect text elements of a preview.11:30, 24 October 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk)

We now have Special:LintErrors/tidy-font-bug to detect this. It is starting to populate and as expected, it is primarily filled with talk page entries, likely because of user signatures, but as of now, it has one article namespace entry from a railway station page. SSastry (WMF) (talk) 15:55, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Created WP:LINT for starters. -DePiep (talk) 21:48, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Dot operator

  • U+00B7 · middle dot = &#183; = &middot; = interword separation
  • U+22C5 ⋅ dot operator = &#8901; = &sdot; = multiplication dot

A discussion at Template talk:Convert#Dots concerns the fact that {{convert}} has many units which use middot in symbols such as kW·h (convert uses the Unicode character, not the html entity). However, sdot should be used. I'm thinking of changing all convert's units to replace middot with sdot. Is there any reason that should not happen? I'm wondering about old systems which might not display sdot properly. Johnuniq (talk) 04:24, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

"Multiplication dot" is definitely the right thing in terms of how things should be displayed. I have no info though about issues with old systems. Jeh (talk) 05:18, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Edit conflict: just paste my text below, please

Once more I ran into an Edit conflict situation, and I received the Resolution Screen Of Death: I could not recognise nor even find my own text. (Had to solve it indirectly).

Why does not ec-solver provide this basic solution: Put your text paragraphs below, and add '(ec)' marker. -DePiep (talk) 19:49, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Because edit conflict means: "The sofware is unable to solve this reliably, you need to do it" :) —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 19:54, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
(ec) TheDJ (So I should solve it manually, by opening this page for edit etc., but the problem really is: find my own text in that new ec-screen) late sign, because of ec's; -DePiep (talk) 20:43, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Or, give a single text overview! And use three background colors: color-1: OK text (blank), color-2: the other changes text (yellow?), color-3: my text (blue?). (or use more colors for situations, e.g. samep-word conflicts; you'll know about these conflicts). Point is: one text list. HTH. -DePiep (talk) 20:12, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
RIGHT NOW I am about to loose my next post here because of new ec resolution screen. [I need to do what, TheDJ? Bad luck, retype my post?]. Also, why cannot software put my post right below a preceding "ec" post? -DePiep (talk) 20:06, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
You can return to the old one by going to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures and unchecking Automatically enable all new beta features and Two column edit conflict. Nihlus 20:08, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks and GF, Nihlus, but we don't need more manuals. I need less manuals, and intuitive screens. -DePiep (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Let me clarify. When ec:
The ec-screen opens with two columns, the right one fuzzed, illegible. Hidden text, many colors: it says I've done something wrong. But what? Then, still without being able to discern texts, I have to click choices on how I want to resolve my error (flashing colors around). Like a monkey, I want my peanut: my own text, in the page. So I push buttons, see what happens. I've never reached the final button that says: "Yes, this is what I want to sign & save".
Then I discovered this: My new text is in the lefthand side column. Never met this before. By nature: lefthand=old, righthand=new. -DePiep (talk) 20:38, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
@DePiep: With the old edit conflict thing, you also got two boxes: the top one is for the page as it stands after the other person's edit, and the bottom one has your edit in it. But of course, whichever type of edit conflict interface you have, you can use the browser's "back" button to return to the pre-conflict edit box. There, you can copy your text to clipboard, back out one more level and edit again, this time pasting instead of typing. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:45, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
At least, that was a "Old and recent vs You"-text presentation. I could figure that out. Do you see it is the interface I am complaining about? Today I can not discern any more the crucial before-newlysaved-yournew variants. Let alone the solving steps (how to proceed). And don't forget: many ec's (talkpages!) can be resolved by the button I proposed above: ec? Add my post below!. -DePiep (talk) 20:58, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Oh and also don't forget (2): I'd have lost my carefully crafted (time=ec!) texts, had I not circumvented the new ec-screen. -DePiep (talk) 20:58, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

BTW. There is a simulation for edit conflicts now. The german team has been trying to do some testing with edit conflict resolution, but they are having a very hard time gathering good feedback, because people encounter the screen so infrequently (and often then focus on using it, not giving feedback about it). So they hope that with the simulation, they can gather better feedback. See also: meta:WMDE_Technical_Wishes/Edit_Conflicts/Feedback_Round_Test_PageTheDJ (talkcontribs) 22:10, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

  • @DePiep: I'm aware this could be considered victim-blaming to some degree, but if you don't want potentially buggy features why have you enabled a beta feature? The whole point of beta testing is that you're running potentially buggy scripts to see if they're useful and to identify bugs. ‑ Iridescent 22:18, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Good point. Didn't know I had activated this beta. Deal?: me victim behaviour, sc-interface team accept frustration. Bottom line: there is some serious non-personal sense in the experience I described. -DePiep (talk) 22:31, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

@DePiep: it is really helpful to hear what was confusing for you when using the new screen (although I'm sorry that it was a frustrating experience). So thanks a lot for the detailed description you gave! About the "add my post below" suggestion: Leaving technical aspects aside, I agree that this would work for many ec cases on talk pages. But it wouldn't work for cases in the article name space. As mentioned above, the feature is in beta testing to gather feedback and find open bugs. So, if anyone else would like to support us by testing the feature and telling us what works well/what doesn't, it would be great! See the links given by TheDJ in this section for more info on how to test the feature without having to wait for a real edit conflict. We plan to keep the test page up at least until Nov 9. As long as we have this feedback round running, we will adress bugs only, and then look into all the feedback and discuss the next steps. Thanks! --Birgit Müller (WMDE) (talk) 12:40, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Very useful: Special:SimulateTwoColEditConflict (thx TheDJ!). For now, no screenprints needed ;-)
Bad experience explained from: 1. old-ec habits & expectations, and 2. occurs in most stressful situation.
I'll hope to reply more in detail in more specific pages.
AFAIK, this individual thread can be closed. Birgit Müller (WMDE)@ -DePiep (talk) 22:30, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
BTW, is there a Talk Central page for this, wikiwide? (by default I'd go to Talk:Birgit at WMDE). -DePiep (talk) 23:07, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Hi DePiep yes, there is: mw:Help_talk:Two_Column_Edit_Conflict_View. Thanks for testing the feature :-) - and if you're interested in some background on testing with Special:SimulateTwoColEditConflict, you can check m:WMDE_Technical_Wishes/Edit_Conflicts/Feedback_Round_Test_Page in addition! Cheers, --Birgit Müller (WMDE) (talk) 14:08, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

mobile-friendly alternative to Navbox?

Template:Sail types, example on page D1gggg (talk) 19:43, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

According to @Izno: it is possible to fix it with CSS for everyone:
D1gggg (talk) 19:48, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
That's not true. navboxes are filtered out of the html served by the mobile version and can thus not be made visible with CSS. This is due to the enormous amounts of bytes this saves, as well as because it creates pages and pages of footer links. The Obama article for instance manages to dump 1560 links at 230kB, which is a navigation nightmare. Especially, since it will require you to scroll horizontally (on for instance iOS, where scrollbars are not visible) —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 21:28, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
So puzzle is to make 230 kb static and fetch them once
"Obama page" + "Obama navigation template1"
Don't beat me, but I would go with iframes :-)
It is wrong to use "transclusion" ideas and reject frames completely: we don't have a better replacement for them
I will also use Resource Hints and "prerender" when they get support D1gggg (talk) 21:44, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
I also think that 230kb should be a less problem today (1.5mbit in 2015 even in Paraguay) vs 56kbps (in early 2000)
If we glue 230kb with every other page, we only increase total traffic for every page. D1gggg (talk) 22:08, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Mobile connection speeds according to Akamai in 2017 : 2.8 Mbps in Venezuela D1gggg (talk) 22:16, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
It's open source, go right ahead. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 22:22, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

See also phab:T124168 on showing navboxes in mobile skins and phab:T112987 on storing infoboxes and navboxes separate from articles.

There's also the age-old question of whether people who aren't editors actually use navboxes very much. Navboxes haven't been shown on mobile for years. There's been a lot of user research done in the last few years. I've never yet seen a research report that includes any comments about any reader missing navboxes when they switch to their mobile device. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:49, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

@Whatamidoing (WMF): If the WMF did a research project and determined through some means that desktop readers never or very rarely use navboxes, would the WMF remove them from Vector as well? Jc86035 (talk) 10:22, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
I doubt it, though there are serious issues there, they are manageable. But this is how that looks on mobile. I consider that damaging.. As in, people who encounter this, will go away instead of engage with Wikipedia. And no one has ever shown me a design to make that a usable piece of content on a smaller form factor. I have seen a few ideas, but almost all of them require major engineering resources, and for me personally, the added value of navboxes is simply not worth it compared a whole lot of other stuff that the paid developers are working on. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:11, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
I have no idea what they would recommend in such a case. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:38, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
My flexbox-fu is weak, I don't know a more clever solution than justify-content: space-evenly
But it is better-than-scrolling.
It shouldn't be a single design, but several responsive CSS versions. D1gggg (talk) 15:16, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Variant without second flex-box, but with columns: D1gggg (talk) 15:34, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
If you think this is important please do work on it. I'm just saying, it's harder than most people make it out to be, with many more edge cases, a level of browser support that is far higher than most people are used to and a group of users that is more critical than is pleasant. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 16:40, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

What happened to my watchlist, and how do I restore it?

Detail lines in my watchlist now look like this: (png at

Where they used to look like this: (sample from Wikiquote - png at

On my main machine, which is Windows 10, I get the same result on Chrome, IE, Edge, and Firefox. I see the same thing on other Windows 10 and Windows 7 machines (tested with Chrome only).

I have not enabled the new "filters for edit review".

I dislike the new scheme because the diff and hist links are in variable places depending on how long the pagename is. I do like having the edit time in a column that's always in the same place, but since one never clicks on that, there is little UI benefit to it. Jeh (talk) 19:32, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Do you have beta features enabled in your Preferences? That often causes unexpected changes like this one. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:02, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
@Jeh: You've got the "Enhanced Recent Changes" mode enabled; it's not new (I think it's now a decade old), but it might well be new to you. :-) To disable it, go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist and deselect "Expand watchlist to show all changes, not just the most recent". Jdforrester (WMF) (talk) 20:10, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Did you disable that for me? 'cause it doesn't seem to be enabled now. And my WL still looks funny. Jeh (talk) 00:29, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
@Jdforrester (WMF): I tried enabling it, Save - the WL is indeed now "enhanced". Then disabled it, Save - the "enhancements" went away but the format of the line items is still as in my first ("bad") linked picture above.
btw I tried looking at it on a couple of browsers/machines from which I have NEVER accessed WP before, so I don't think it's a client-side cacheing issue. Jeh (talk) 00:35, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Disable "Group changes by page in recent changes and watchlist" at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rc. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
@Jeh: Whoops, sorry, yes, the other change-how-watchlist-results-look preference, as PrimeHunter spotted. We really need to clean up the set of all these preferences so that it's more obvious which does what! That should fix it. Jdforrester (WMF) (talk) 01:08, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, that did it, thank you! (It's not at all obvious to me, not just that those options imply a different watchlist display, but why the different display is preferable for either of those options.. but that's not important. FWIW if it were me I would move the time display in the "regular" watchlist to the left of the editor's name so it lines up in a neat column - that aspect of the "strange" WL display, I liked.) Jeh (talk) 05:12, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
@Jeh: Glad it worked.
Though I agree that there are positives about each of the layout options, I think changing any of them to take the 'good' things from the others would be pretty disruptive to users. Because we don't want to get in the way of the brilliant volunteers dedicating their time to fixing articles, mentoring new users they find in Recent Changes, and improving things on their watchlists, we'd not want to make changes to people's experiences of such a core workflow. Consequently, any improvements in this area would mean adding a fourth layout option, which means a slower site (more code), more bugs (more things to go wrong), and more confusing site (more options to pick between for users). Right now we have no plans to do this – and if we were, it'd be a quite a large scale process to ensure it was as significant an improvement as possible, which would mean less time spent increasing the performance, fixing bugs, and all the other stuff to which we're committed. Jdforrester (WMF) (talk) 17:24, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Converting en dashes to hyphens in date ranges without affecting the source text

There is a long-standing discussion at Template talk:Cite DNB over whether it would be possible for hyphens to appear as en dashes without affecting the source. To quote my edit request of 18 October:

Per wikisource:Page:Dictionary of National Biography volume 01.djvu/19, the original source uses the en dash and not a hyphen for date ranges, i.e. ABBOT, GEORGE (1562–1633) not ABBOT, GEORGE (1562-1633). Please can editor modify this template so that hyphens that appear before and/or after an integer appear automatically as en dashes, in the same way hyphens are automatically converted at {{cite book}} with |pages=, i.e. {{cite book |title=Foo |pages=1-2}} appearing as Foo. pp. 1–2..--Nevéselbert 19:41, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Now I'm not exactly sure over the practicality of this proposal, but if someone has an idea how to work this, I'd very much like to hear it.--Nevéselbert 15:35, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

This is forum shopping. See the discussion on Template talk:Cite DNB#Automatic conversion of hyphens in date ranges to en dashes. It is not that it can not be done, but that to date there is no consensus to make such a change, beacuse when it was implemented it was reverted by another editor (User:Billinghurst). -- PBS (talk) 18:09, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Because they are page titles, not date ranges, and should be shown as they are named at the target site. — billinghurst sDrewth 22:44, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
And why does the target site matter more than the actual source itself and its unedited transcription? Your opposition makes absolutely no sense. Only Wikisource doesn't bother with the ndash. Why repeat their errors here? These are date ranges that are part of the title, yet the fact that the original source uses the ndash doesn't matter? Bizarre.--Nevéselbert 19:02, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Language links when topics don't map one-to-one

I'm really confused about how to add language links on wikipedia when two wikis have slightly different topic divisions.

Today, as I sometimes do, I was trying to use the language links to figure out how to say something in another language (Civet, specifically), but the link was not there so I searched up the english word on the other wiki and found that there the article for the animal and its Latin family were the same. I went to wikidata to try to link "ジャコウネコ科" to "Civet" but it told me that the link for "ジャコウネコ科" was already occupied at "Viverridae" so I needed to "merge the items" and now I'm so confused on what I'm supposed to do.... SougonNaTakumi (talk) 06:26, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I would love to learn otherwise, but unfortunately I think the Wikidata scheme is simply not set up to handle anything other than a 1-1 mapping between languages.
My canonical example for this is retinol versus vitamin A. In English Wikipedia, we have separate articles for retinol, the specific molecule, and vitamin A, which includes nutritionally equivalent compounds. When I worked on this many years ago, there were lots of languages that had only one article. Sometimes it had a title cognate to retinol, and sometimes to vitamin A.
It seems to me that both choices are defensible, and do not need to be uniformized between languages. But then the single article in the languages with just one ought to have two English interlang links appear, and both articles should have an interlang link to the single article in the other language.
Now, I just spot-checked it, and in the cases I checked, the other languages have the same division as in English. I only checked a few, so I don't know whether it's the case for all of them. But I see no reason it should have to be, just to make the interlang links tidy. Our software ought to support many-one (or possibly even many-many) links between languages, when the semantic ranges of the existing articles don't exactly line up. But if it does support them, I don't know how to do it. --Trovatore (talk) 07:03, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Vitamin A is the general topic, retinol is a subtopic; if a specific wiki doesn't believe that the latter deserves its own article (due to lack of information on that wiki, perhaps they're strongly against permanent stubs), then merging the topic into the vitamin article would be appropriate. And the problem with Civet is that, as far as I can tell, it's not an official taxon - it's a group of genera from a single family, but not more closely related to each other than to other genera in the same family. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:37, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Well, retinol is not purely a subtopic of vitamin A; there's presumably stuff to say about it also from a purely chemical viewpoint, though I suppose that's never going to be of as much interest as the biological function. But maybe more to the point, I think the "letter" assignments for vitamins are not as much used in some other languages as they are in English, so some languages naturally saw fit to have the general article at (the cognate of) "retinol". I suppose you could put a link between :en:Vitamin_A and :otherlang:Retinol, and have no link from :en:Retinol to, but it would be counterintuitive and likely a constant battleground. --Trovatore (talk) 07:54, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
There's {{interwiki extra}}.
For examples of how it's used, see Category:Module:Interwiki: additional interwiki links.
(That's all I know about this.) ... I guess you'll have to look at the bottom of the articles in that category, either in wikitext editing mode or in visual editing mode, to find the Wikidata extra item number, and then look up that item in Wikidata and follow links from there, to figure it out. --Pipetricker (talk) 10:48, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Pinging C933103 and Mr. Stradivarius in case they have any insight to share. --Pipetricker (talk) 16:29, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
1.The Japanese Wikipedia article "ジャコウネコ科" is specifically about the scientific family, and the article name translated black in English is also "Family of (species name in Japanese)". Information for Civet have been mentioned in the article but only as form of "Some species in the family are being called as Civet because of their ....", so I don't think it is apporipate for it to be added into the wikidata item for civet, although linking it via "interwiki extra" would be useful and helpful. 2. There are a few possible translation for Civet in Japanese, includes: ジャコウネコ(Lit. meaning musk cat, same as the name of the family name, but the name is also used to specifically referred to some species in the family too) シベット (phonetic translation of "civet") 麝香猫(Kanji expression of the concept of musk cat). 3. For general wikipedia user, in situation like this, they can probably look at the "wikidata item" link on the left sidebar and see if there are any relevant description or translation of the entry name in language they are looking for. However in this particular case it doesn't seems to help. Also, I think maybe that wikidata entry link can be moved down to the "other languages" section in the left sidebar instead of staying at where it currently is to increase visibility? 4. I do see there are instances where multiple wikilinks to same wiki or/and same item in multiple wikidata entry being useful. For instance, the word Kamikaze is generally being used to describe all the suicidial attacks performed by Japanese military during WWII but in reality they are just one of the many Japanese Special Attack Units . The two English Wikipedia article have more or less seperated them accordingly, but in many other languages' wikipedia version like Spanish/German/Arabic wikipedia, there are only one article for both concepts. I think it would be helpful if visitors from all those other wikipedia are presented with a choice when they are clicking interwiki link to English/Japanese/Russian wikipedia to see which of the two concepts' article were they looking for. C933103 (talk) 20:10, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
When we take artificial groupings of animals, there frequently won't be a good translation. For example, the word "Kangaroo" comes from the name of a specific kangaroo species in Guugu Yimithirr, a language spoken in Australia; in this language, there is no word for Kangaroo. When taking any official taxon, we can at least take the taxon name and use it, translate it, or transliterate it; for non-taxon groupings, we can't even do this. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:11, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Percentage bar

Hi, I wondered if there was a way to programme a # tag list of numbers of articles in a list to automatically update the percentage bars as the Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/The World Contest proceeds see the bottom. What I would need is somebody to write a script which a] Reads the number of articles currently on the list and calculates the percentage of 2000 articles as each entry is added. b] Is able to detect when the day ends UTC + 0 time and able to read what the article count was each day and calculate each day what percentage of 66 articles have been created? At least something which will do a] automatically anyway. Anybody? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:41, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Wikidata Football results templates

In the course of an acrimonious discussion the templates Template:2017 J1 League table with WD and Template:2017–18 Premier League table with WD were sent to TfD on grounds they they were being used to import spam from Wikidata (at, for example, 2017 J1 League). I do not start to understand the techniques used but I think that changes on Wikidata were directly affecting the data emanating from these templates. Is that roughly correct? At the TFD discussions it has been remarked that these templates are similar to Template:2017 J1 League table and Template:2017–18 Premier League table (which are not up for deletion) but I can't follow what is happening with all these. Do they update immediately also or is some update operation required either to the templates or to the articles transcluding (substing?) them? To see relevant wikidata changes (with "Show Wikidata edits in your watchlist" in my preferences) would I need the templates or the articles watchlisted or would neither of these suffice? I'd like to get some sort of grasp of what is going on to form an opinion as to whether this is a good thing or not. Thincat (talk) 13:27, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

@Thincat: The "with WD"-ones require people/bots to update the count in the Wikidata information and the other 2/older ones require people/bots to update the information in the template. The 'with WD'-versions will be easier for bots to keep up to date, the older template one requires more human labour. There is little inherent difference between the two templates informational content and their usage, other than Wikipedia edit vs Wikidata edit. To see changes to either you would need to have the templates (and ALL subtemplates used by them) on your watchlist, just watching an article won't show the changes for either of the variants of the templates. For the "with WD" variants, you would also need to have "Show Wikidata edits in your watchlist" enabled. But relatively speaking information like that isn't watched much to begin with. All of them are only watched by 2-5 people. All of them use subtemplates with even fewer watchers (like {{Fb team FC Tokyo}} with 0 watchers). The primary concern of the deletion discussion seems to be the source of the information, which is suspected to be an attempt at spam and self promotion. I personally think that could also be an honest mistake resulting from not understanding wikipedia and the concept of sourcing. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:17, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Good grief. Thank you. It's fortunate I'm not interested in football results and I hope nobody else is either. Perhaps someone could warn me when the travels of 19th-century explorers are included on Wikidata. Thincat (talk) 16:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Proper article, but it's all infobox!

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but can anyone fix this article, or direct me to the appropriate forum? I've had a play with the infobox and the brackets, but I can't seem to find a solution. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 19:39, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Looks like User:Jo-Jo Eumerus repaired it already (unmatched {{'s). — xaosflux Talk 19:57, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
I've removed the {{MedalTop}} and {{MedalBottom}} as they are unneeded in an infobox. Nihlus 20:01, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Actually, the problem was the unmatched "MedalTop" template, not an unmatched "{{". Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 20:20, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Apologies - forgot all about this. Thanks to all that looked at it. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 19:41, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Interwiki links delay

Something has changed and I can't figure it out. I should be able to create a page in some xx.wikipedia, then click on "Edit links," add the new page in that language, then see the link in all the other Wikipedias. However, it's not happening for me now.

For example, in the page flea beetle, I do not see a link to nv.wikipedia nv:Atʼąąʼ biyaʼ nahachaʼígíí. The Navajo page has been duly added to Q373530#sitelinks-wikipedia. Why doesn't it appear in en.wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephen G. Brown (talkcontribs) 08:52, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

It was still missing 5 minutes ago. It didn't work to purge flea beetle but the link appeared a minute later. I don't know the cause of the delay. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:26, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. Just a matter of patience then. —Stephen (talk) 00:30, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

New source editor

This new version of the source editor is horrible and I cannot deal with it! It's super slow and I'm unable to copy/paste anything while editing on an iPad/iPhone. Is there anyway to rollback to the previous version?--◂ ‎épine talk 10:46, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

@Épine: Go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures and disable "New wikitext mode". Jc86035 (talk) 10:51, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
And/or "Wikitext syntax highlighting". either can be a problem. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 10:54, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
And "Automatically enable all new beta features" must be disabled to disable any of the other beta features. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:39, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you guys!--◂ ‎épine talk 16:06, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

i cant make a account

I cant make a account because of this error There seems to be a problem with your login session; this action has been canceled as a precaution against session hijacking. Go back to the previous page, reload that page and then try again. Its on the latest version of Google Chrome on Windows8 — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 10:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Have you tried to do it on a different computer? Ruslik_Zero 20:02, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
i tried but it also happened i wonder if its the browser as we use the same browser and operating system on the computers 1 is a desktop and another is a laptop — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 22:25, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
This seems to be a connectivity problem in your network. Ruslik_Zero 19:01, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Have Special:RecentChanges to show changes for associated talk/non-talk namespace

I've created a ticket for this (T179739), but others are welcomed to chime in. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:52, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Help re "Timeless" skin

How do I use this: mw:Skin:Timeless? Dysklyver 09:49, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

@A Den Jentyl Ettien Avel Dysklyver: On Someone needs to deploy it first. See this discussion. (For future reference, a less generic thread summary than "Help" is welcome.) --Malyacko (talk) 10:02, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. So who do I pester to get it enabled? or does that require an RfC? Dysklyver 10:06, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
You could post at phab:T154371. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:20, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@A Den Jentyl Ettien Avel Dysklyver: You'd need an RfC; the other projects for which it's been added all have had RfCs to enable it. I assume it will be relatively inconsequential and will pass easily, but you, or the proposer (if not you), should explain that nothing changes for the people who don't like those sorts of newfangled things. Jc86035 (talk) 15:38, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

RfC: Enabling the Timeless skin

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
It's snowing.Unanimous consensus to ☑Y accept the proposal.Winged Blades of GodricOn leave 09:34, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

It is proposed that the Timeless skin available at mw:Skin:Timeless is added to the en-wikipedia configuration as a optional skin which could be enabled in user preferences. There are currently 5 skins available in preferences. This will be the sixth.

The current default skin that controls how most people see Wikipedia is Vector; this will not change.

Unless an individual user wants to use the Timeless skin and enables it in their preferences, it will not be visible or change the user interface in any way. This skin has been tested and is currently enabled as a non-default preference on other Wikipedia including the French language Wikipedia, Wiktionary (fr), Wikinews (fr) and on the MediaWiki wiki.

Please don't oppose this just because you don't like it; you never have to know it is there, it will not affect any other skins or appearance settings. It is a completely optional choice, new users will still use Vector, and everyone who doesn't change their settings will still use Vector (or their other skin choice such as Monobook). > Dysklyver 15:55, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Support (Enabling the Timeless skin)

  1. Support; useful for beta testing due to large community here and no changes for editors who don't want it. Jc86035 (talk) 16:01, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  2. I don't see any reason not to support this implementation, but given my limited knowledge of anything MediaWiki-related, I'll keep an eye here and consider any opposition duly. — fourthords | =Λ= | 16:48, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  3. Support - it's a nice look, better than most existing options, so as long as it won't affect anyone who doesn't decide to use it, why not enable it here. Ravensfire (talk) 16:53, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  4. Support. Optional, and nothing wrong with having an additional option. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:30, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  5. Support - nice looking optional skin, with active technical support to resolve any issues that remain with it. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 19:15, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  6. Support Shall be nice to try on. Isarra has always had a keen eye for design. My name isnotdave (talk/contribs) 22:33, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  7. Sure why not? also I don't see why this is on CENT. Its about enabling an optional skin, not really something that needs sitewide advertisement. If no one objects, I'd suggest removing it. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:11, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  8. Support - Why not? Looks like it could be good. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 04:39, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
  9. Go for it. Adding it as an optional opt-in preference setting is low-impact for the most part, so it can probably be done right away without waiting the typical RFC discussion period. Mz7 (talk) 09:20, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
  10. Support. Nice to have another option, and it looks good. SarahSV (talk) 01:55, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
  11. Support Always good to have more choices. Looks good, performs alright. Stikkyy t/c 04:53, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
  12. Support This is a modern UI skin which would likely get more users to interact with Wikipedia + it is done through the preference so it should have little impact as the default UI won’t be changing yet. Paladox (talk) 01:36, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
  13. Support yes please. Krenair (talkcontribs) 08:08, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
  14. Support Low-impact change that would be beneficial for anyone that chooses to use the skin. No change on defaults means no reason not to support. ~ Matthewrbowker Say something · What I've done 22:11, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
  15. Support This would be neat! MusikAnimal talk 22:16, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Oppose (Enabling the Timeless skin)

Discussion (Enabling the Timeless skin)

  • I have added this RfC to {{Centralized discussion}} and mentioned it in the Phabricator task. Jc86035 (talk) 16:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment: We don't usually allow RFCs on VPT, but this seems like the right forum to me. Given that it's on CENT, we might want to consider a short RFC period (like two or three days) if this looks like SNOW in favor of support. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:29, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
    @Jonesey95: The listing on {{Centralized discussion}} has been removed. I would favour closing in about two weeks. Jc86035 (talk) 15:18, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
    It seems that all users who have commented here are in favour. 0 are opposing.should we close this as support for enabling this skin through the preference? (It’s been more then a week) Paladox (talk) 01:35, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
    @Paladox: No objection. Jc86035 (talk) 08:16, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Google indexing

Why is Pe'er Tasi article, which was created more than three months ago, still not appearing in Google search? --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 09:51, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

It's the top Google result for me on Pe'er Tasi. The article is 94 days old so indexing has only been allowed for 4 days per Wikipedia:Controlling search engine indexing#Indexing of articles ("mainspace"). We don't control how quicly Google starts indexing after it becomes allowed. Maybe it happened after your post. Their current cache was made after your post because it says: "It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on 4 Nov 2017 11:09:30 GMT". PrimeHunter (talk) 13:31, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. I tried "Pe'er Tasi" now and it appeared. I suppose "Peer Tasi" (without apostrophe) will work later. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 13:59, 4 November 2017 (UTC)


(As suggested by Pigsonthewing, posting here for help)

Hello, I was just testing User:Capankajsmilyo/List of Jains and was wondering if there's a way to compare the results with List of Jains. Is that possible? -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 14:03, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

ehm, compare how often? For one time, it's probably best to just compare manually, more regularly.. well that's exactly why people built wikidata, because parsing wikicode is hard. I guess a relatively easy way to compare them, is to check for the presence of the link using the api, but it's gonna be fragile. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:17, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
I would like to do the comparison more than 1 time. I would like to know the pages available in the manual list and not available in wikidata generated list to add them to wikidata list. Doing it manually is not something I am looking for. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 15:39, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
I don't see any sane way of doing this. It's just too difficult to try to programatically exclude all the links in List of Jains that you don't want to compare with User:Capankajsmilyo/List of Jains. If you were to create a sanitized version of List of Jains in your own user space that only contains the links you're interested in, we can talk. Of course, this does mean that you would have to create a new sanitized list every time you wanted to compare the two pages, so there's still a significant maintenance burden even if someone were to write a script for this. Nirmos (talk) 08:09, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
There's a list comparer built into WP:AWB (I'm not sure if you have to be AWB-enabled to get to it; I don't think so). If you use the Links on page option for both lists, it seems to work reasonably. - Jarry1250 [Vacation needed] 13:15, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
You can copy and paste these tables fro Firefox to Excel and then use functions there. However I prefer Unix text commands, then comm -3 file1 file2 will show up the lines that only appear in one list or the other. However note the lists have to be sorted and in the same format for this to work. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:00, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

"Undefined" reference

The current version of Michael Burnham says that ref name ind is not defined but it is. Can someone help? ―Justin (koavf)TCM 17:40, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Trappist got it. --Izno (talk) 17:56, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks to you both! What a dumb error. ―Justin (koavf)TCM 04:32, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Script error

The error shown on Tsaone Macheng using Google Chrome

Hi all. I would like to request help to fix an error that I (now) see a lot when using User:Kephir/gadgets/rater (js and css): "Cannot read property "taskforces" of undefined" For example (See screenshot), on the article Tsaone Macheng but note that the error is present on many pages not just this. Also, I suspect the error is related to {{WPBannerMeta}} or {{WikiProject banner shell}} since nothing changed in the script's code recently. I would really appreciate it if someone could fix this tool for me. Thanks in advance. --Meno25 (talk) 15:41, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

I think that this is related to - if not the same issue as - User talk:Kephir/gadgets/rater#Serious new error. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:41, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes it is. Fixed by User:Evad37. Thank you. --Meno25 (talk) 06:35, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Apparently timing out edits followed with SSL connection error

This occurred to me before occasionaly when attempting to fix broken signatures in the past, but this is another case. Interestingly, I can usually edit without problems, but whenever I encounter this bug if I try the same edit again the same issue occurs. If I try to make an edit at Batak, adding {{clear}} at the end of the See also section and removing the {{reflist}} parameter, this now occurs. This also occurs if I try "preview" or "show changes". The HTTP form is sent, a delay occurs waiting for a the server response, then I get a generic "Secure connection failed: The connection to was interrupted while the page was loading." error. It appears like if the server thread or process servicing the request crashes or dies. Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 23:35, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

So I tried again just now and the same issue occurs (same edit at same article). —PaleoNeonate – 16:38, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Gothamist, and sister publications, shutdown...

CNN's reliable sources reported that the Gothamist and its sister publications shutdown Thursday, following a labor dispute with the founder.

I've used Torontoist articles as a reference, dozens of times. External links says Torontoist is linked over 730 times.

Gothamist is linked 2219 times

Would it be possible to authorize the bot that adds links to versions archived at to all those references, before the sites finally go dark? Geo Swan (talk) 17:25, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City#Important notice, Wikipedia:Bot requests#Archiving six websites. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:39, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Missing contributions

I obviously can't provide evidence for this, but two days ago both User:Home Lander and I could only find one contribution by MissesX (talk · contribs) which led to us asking her for her old account name as told us to look at her other edits. Hopefully this is just a glitch that won't repeat itself, but I thought I'd mention it here in case others have seen it. Doug Weller talk 17:01, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

I see a fair amount of edits that are older than two days ago, many of them to articles of native tribes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 17:25, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
From what I recall, when I first looked at the user's contribs, I saw only this one and left her a message. After receiving a message from Doug Weller on my talk page (think it was the next day), I went back to the contribs and saw all of the previous ones, and have been able to see all of them since. Home Lander (talk) 18:22, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
That was my experience also. I only saw one edit. Doug Weller talk 19:01, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Twitter compromise?

Can someone help me out? Please access on this diff, then click on next edit and tell me what you see? I get taken to a Twitter status post window (See here) with the following text pasted into the field:

For every Tweet, @Wikipedia will donate $1 to @HIVGov #WikiCares

Any ideas about this? Happened for me in two different browsers whether logged in or not. I only see one guy on Twitter with that post. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 14:38, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Miiiight have had something to do with the EFF's Privacy Badger extension. Disabled it and it seemed to go away, but again, oddly, it went away on another browser where I had not disabled it. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 14:46, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
I can confirm having seen the problem reported here, but it appears to have stopped occurring. Dragons flight (talk) 14:49, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
It was {{clarify span}} that was compromised. Perhaps we should add File:Blind.png to MediaWiki:Bad image list. Nardog (talk) 14:50, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Twitter is the tool of capitalistic dictators. Nevertheless, I've put a semi-prot on that template. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:52, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Why isn't there an edit filter to prevent this? KMF (talk) 01:37, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Um, is the original problem still there? When I access "on this diff" I get an innocuous diff, and when I click on next edit I get another innocuous diff. —Anomalocaris (talk) 20:26, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
@Anomalocaris: The original problem was in the template {{Clarify span}} which was compromised with these two edits and fixed with this edit. Pages transcluding this template will have exhibited the problem during that interval; any that still do so can be fixed with a simple WP:PURGE. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:31, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

New way of handling webhosts

Instead of blocking webhost and colocation IP addresses, what about treating them like dynamic IP ranges, and creating templates for the big colocation companies (e.g. {{OVH}} and {{DigitalOcean}}) a la {{SingNet}} and {{HughesNet}}? Here's a mock-up of the OVH template:

KMF (talk) 00:04, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

I noticed that noone answered yet. Do we really systematically block those? I know that some large OVH blocks are so problematic that various corporations outright block them (I'm not sure about Wikipedia). In any case, why not a single more generic template similar to {{Shared IP}} with a parameter to specify the hosting provider, like that template's |organization= parameter? A possible advantage of provider-specific templates may more easily permit to build statistics, though.
The tagging system is also imperfect: We have no bots (that I know) designed to systematically tag talk pages and restore them when deleted (which would also imply an easy to maintain and machine-readable database of ranges and type/descriptions)... —PaleoNeonate – 20:44, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
Maybe this is better suited for WT:UTM? I'm not sure what is meant by "instead of blocking" the colos. As a CU I can confirm they're a real pain and I'll typically hardblock them on sight (which is very frequent). I'd agree there are far too many providers to have a template for each. The only place templates are useful is in block messages, and for that we use the generic {{Colocationwebhost}}. -- zzuuzz (talk) 20:56, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Upright parameter is not currently scaling up images AFAICT

Hi. The [[upright=1.16]] parameter is not scaling up. See the Charles Manson article, and this image. It is stuck at the native image size. I would like to scale it up to be the same width as the others. This is not the first time I have stumbled on this. Ping me back. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 10:59, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

if I recall, |upright= won't stretch an image beyond it's size. in this case the file is 189 pixels wide, so you can't go beyond that size with upright. Frietjes (talk) 15:01, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
from WP:Extended image syntax: Scaling up (i.e. stretching the image to a greater size) is disabled when the image is framed. Frietjes (talk) 15:03, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
This is Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 156#What if the image is smaller than thumb? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:39, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
(ec) re Frietjes: That's two explanations. I tried some settings (with/out thumb, frameless, "none"): did not give an answer. My old problem understanding WP:EIS: interacting parameters. While, there must be an logical explanation. -DePiep (talk) 20:42, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Hi, Frietjes. I get it. Thanks. It would be nice if we could scale up on the fly. It would also be nice if 'upright' did not scale down by 25% by default. No sense to that one. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 20:57, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Actually, that was its only original intent. To downsize portrait oriented (aka upright) images, to not be uneasily high at it's default width, compared to landscape images. The behavior we use it for is an accident of history. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 21:57, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Hi, Redrose64. Thank you very much. I did a snap search of the archives, but did not dig as deep as you. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 20:59, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Conclusion please. Is it: "upright=1.x" (>1) has no effect when source size is <220px" [*or users agent setting]? -DePiep (talk) 22:20, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Template:UK National Archives ID and Wikidata

On George V, the template {{UK National Archives ID}} used in the external links section generates a bad url. This seems to be because the template pulls Wikidata:Property:P3029, which for George V contains two UK National Archives IDs. The broken url is generated with one of the IDs and a comma.

What's the best way to address this? Should the Wikipedia article use two National Archives templates, specifying the two National Archives IDs rather than depending on Wikidata? Should the template be generalized to handle multiple National Archives IDs returned by Wikidata? --Worldbruce (talk) 19:20, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Override the Wikidata call by specifying the ID. All templates that call Wikidata allow for (or should allow for) local override of Wikidata calls. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:54, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
Individual cases can be handled like that but a more general solution in the template would be better. wikidata:Q269412#P3029 has two values F41939 and F257261. {{UK National Archives ID}} only works for a single value. It says {{#property:P3029}} which on George V produces comma-separated values F41939, F257261, resulting in the broken link [, F257261 "Archival material relating to George V"]. The correct links are and Coding the template to produce two or more links is messy. How should the result be formatted? Maybe it should just trim down to the first value and only link that. In this example the first link has a lot more content but I don't know whether that is common. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:50, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
Use {{#statements:<P-number>}} instead. It is a newer parser function (not "new" though--it's been a thing for a year and a half or so) that generates the data you want. It should work for most properties, but I do not know how it treats qualifiers off hand. Reference this version of "George V". --Izno (talk) 22:35, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
See also documentation at Wikidata. --Izno (talk) 22:38, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Mirror of template:Tree list/final branch

A question was asked back in July 2017 on the talk page Template talk:Tree list#First branch for second level?. As no one has answered that question, I thought I would ask the same question here in the hope of finding an answer.

I am in the process of building a large Ahnentafel genealogical numbered tree using {{Tree list}} while I can do it if all the leaves of the tree hang below the subject:

{{Tree list}}
* 1. subject
** 2. father
*** 4. paternal grandfather
***{{Tree list/final branch}} 5. paternal grandmother
**  {{Tree list/final branch}}3. mother
***6. maternal grandfather
*** {{Tree list/final branch}}7. maternal grandmother
{{Tree list/end}}

  • 1. subject
    • 2. father
      • 4. paternal grandfather
      • 5. paternal grandmother
    • 3. mother
      • 6. maternal grandfather
      • 7. maternal grandmother

What I would like to do is build it with the subject in the middle this:

{{Tree list}}
*** 4. paternal grandfather
*** 5. paternal grandmother
**2. father
* 1. subject
**  {{Tree list/final branch}}3. mother
***6. maternal grandfather
*** {{Tree list/final branch}}7. maternal grandmother
{{Tree list/end}}
      • 4. paternal grandfather← needs a mirror image of Tree list/final branch "first branch"
      • 5. paternal grandmother
    • 2. father← needs a mirror image of Tree list/final branch "first branch"
  • 1. subject
    • 3. mother
      • 6. maternal grandfather
      • 7. maternal grandmother

But this can not be done without the mirror image of {{Tree list/final branch}} to go above the subject. Is it possible and if so, what would such a template have to contain? -- PBS (talk) 15:11, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello @PBS: I also have similar question (I'm struggling with similar kind of module). Although I don't know the answer, at least I suppose this is not the template problem, but CSS related. I think messaging to MediaWiki_talk:Common.css would be better. Because "treeview" style in that CSS creating the tree view. I'm paraphrasing PBS's question as follows for other new readers. --Was a bee (talk) 13:24, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Is it possible to create following kind of tree with CSS?

Branchs are growing not only toward bottom-right, but also toward up-right direction.

................................ ┏ 4. paternal grandfather

.............. ┏ 2. father ┫

.............. ┃.............. ┗ 5. paternal grandmother

1. subject┫

.............. ┃................ ┏ 6. maternal grandfather

.............. ┗ 3. mother ┫

.................................. ┗ 7. maternal grandmother

We have a bunch of those tournaments templates which, while not coded great, could plausibly be mirrored image'd around the vertical axis. Those also probably need a redesign given how painful they are to deal with. --Izno (talk) 13:48, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
This issue could be solved by using the canvas technology (through the Graph extension), like shown on Extension:Graph/Demo/CartesianTree. Changing that graphic to use straight lines instead of curved ones is something I could help with.--Snaevar (talk) 22:10, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Snaevar, that is pretty and I think that the curved lines would make a pleasant alternative, but I do not think it would solve the problem, as we already have Template:Ahnentafel-compact6 which displays like this: Alice de Lacy, 4th Countess of Lincoln#Ancestry. I am looking to implement something that can handle 9 or 10 generations in articles like this one: Ancestry of Elizabeth II#Ancestry tree, in a way that it could be viewed on small screens and printed out on A4/foolscap paper. -- PBS (talk) 17:00, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
@PBS: Although I didn't see the details of it, I found the template named Template:Clade. How about that? --Was a bee (talk) 09:11, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. I was hoping for a solution with the tree list software. After the discussion at MediaWiki talk:Common.css#Mirror of Wikipedia:template:Tree list/final branch, I now understand why {{tree list}} can not be modified as I was asking. The module in Template:Clade may possibly be of use for templates like {{ahnentafel-compact6}} (although I doubt it because of the format differences. In all the examples given by Template:Clade it lists the names side by side. The tree list only indents each leaf by one character. In the example of Ancestry of Elizabeth II we have an of her fathers:

1. Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom
2. George VI of the United Kingdom
4. George V of the United Kingdom
8. Edward VII of the United Kingdom
16. Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha
32. Prince Ernest I, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha
64. Prince Francis, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld
128. Ernest Frederick, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld
256. Francis Josias, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld

(9 generation)

Although this {{clade}} does wrap the names I think the example below makes the point that trees with more than six generations will start to cause formatting problems on small screens and printers:

Ancestry of Elizabeth II
1. Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom
2. George VI of the United Kingdom
4. George V of the United Kingdom
8. Edward VII of the United Kingdom
16. Prince Albert of Saxe‑Coburg and Gotha
32. Prince Ernest I, Duke of Saxe‑Coburg and Gotha
64. Prince Francis, Duke of Saxe‑Coburg‑Saalfeld
128. Ernest Frederick, Duke of Saxe‑Coburg‑Saalfeld
256. Francis Josias, Duke of Saxe‑Coburg‑Saalfeld









With the tree layout it only comes number of generations (in this case 9) + the length of the last entry (49) making less than 60 characters wide. Something that will fit on most screens and all printers without changing the font.

  • 1. Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom
    • 2. George VI of the United Kingdom
      • 4. George V of the United Kingdom
        • 8. Edward VII of the United Kingdom
          • 16. Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha
            • 32 Prince Ernest I, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha
              • 64. Prince Francis, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld
                • 128. Ernest Frederick, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld
                  • 256. Francis Josias, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld
                  • 257.
                • 129.
              • 65.
            • 33.
          • 17.
        • 9.
      • 5.
    • 3.

It looks like if I want a solution, I will have to do it myself probably using a using a modified version of {{chart}}, Module:TreeChart and a few characters from Module:TreeChart/data. -- PBS (talk) 12:36, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Restore a file from a website

Hello. Before an hour there was a file in a web site. Now they have removed it. Is there a way to find it? The file was only in the web for some hours. Xaris333 (talk) 13:09, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

There is probably no way to get the file now but we could look for a cached copy at other websites like Google and the Internet Archive if you say what you know about the file and where it was, the former url if you know it. If you viewed the file then there may also be a copy in your own browser cache on your computer. In that case, do not visit the site again in the same browser. Preferably, don't use the browser at all until you get instructions from people knowing the browser. This is better suited for Wikipedia:Reference desk/Computing. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:34, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Editing box inserting bogus hard linebreaks (MacOS X, Chrome, about a month now, only on this site)

For the last month or so I've been experiencing a problem (in Chrome, on MacOS X), where if I enter a space character at the end of a displayed "line" (i.e. right before a soft-wrap) in the editing window, a hard linebreak ends up being inserted when I save, often resulting in crap like this:

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna

aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.

where the second line, which should not be a real line at all, is treated as <pre>...</pre> text. What's happened is a hard line break was inserted after "magna", causing the "[space]aliqua" to start a new hardcoded line. This most often happens when the displayed "line" in the editing box soft-wraps at something not alphabetical, such as ]] or the like. Driving me nuts. Generally the only way to fix it is to save the broken version and go back in and re-edit it. I get hit by this around 1–5 times per day. Never happened before, in 12 years.

Any ideas what the issue is? Anyone else getting this?  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  06:47, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

I just now corrected this edit and was wondering how @such an experienced editor would make that mistake. --Pipetricker (talk) 07:26, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I've also run into it being done by other editors with increased frequency recently, though it's not all over the place.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  23:55, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Which editor are you using ? Do you have the Syntaxhighlight Beta enabled by chance ? —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 10:22, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
@TheDJ: I do have "Wikitext syntax highlighting" turned on in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures. I also had "Syntax highlighter" turned on in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets; maybe this is causing cross-talk of some kind. I'm not running "wikEd" or "New wikitext mode".  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  23:53, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
It's happened to me too a couple of times but I've caught it in preview. I have the gadget, but not the beta. I'm using Win 10 & Opera. Cabayi (talk) 07:02, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Would youtwo please turn off the gadget, and then try to trigger this? Since you have the gadget in common, it'd be helpful if we could quickly rule that out, or know that the gadget needs an update. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:35, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
I've turned off the beta gadget. As a test I turned off the regular one, and left the beta one on, and did not actually get any syntax highlighting at all, so the beta one seems to have issues anyway. I've run with the regular one for ages (before noticing there was a beta replacement) without this issue, so I'll try this change first.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  19:52, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
It's still happening. So, I have no turned off the non-beta syntax highlighter. This is going to be really painful.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  00:15, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I've been getting this on the mobile site. It's incredibly frustrating. Hairy Dude (talk) 21:19, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
  • @Whatamidoing (WMF): Update – I've run for a week or so without syntax highlighting (either version), as requested, and it's still happening, under the same conditions as initially reported. And additional one (or a variant, really) is that it often happens when double-spacing after a . (i.e., another case of a space after a non-alphanum character). I find that re-sizing the browser window can make it go away, and sometimes doing "Show preview" will as well.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  03:50, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
    • Thank  you for the update. Which editing environment are you using? There are screenshots of each at mw:Editor if you're not absolutely certain. Hairy Dude and Cabayi: same question for you. A complete list of operating system/web browser/skin/editor would be the most useful (e.g., this comment is being added via macOS 10.12/Safari 11/Vector/2017 wikitext editor). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:47, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
      @Whatamidoing (WMF): I'm using Extension:WikiEditor ("Enable enhanced editing toolbar" is enabled in Special:Preferences).  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  21:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
      @Whatamidoing (WMF): Chrome 61.0.3163.98 on Android 7.0 (Samsung Galaxy S6), using the mobile editor. Beta features are off. Hairy Dude (talk) 01:34, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Plain old wrapping is broken

Something is broken.

I am working right now in the wikitext editor, in Chome on a mac, with the browser window at about six inches wide. If I now add a link with a window that is about a foot wide. If I now now add something something long

Talk:Water_fluoridation#NPOV_issues_in_controversy_section and then keep typing, and then save, I get what you see here. Jytdog (talk) 21:12, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
That is messed up, and never used to happen. There is some kind of bug and this is wasting my time. Jytdog (talk) 21:13, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
@Jytdog: The formatting observed above occurs because there's a carriage return after the word "long" and the next line starts with a space. If you remove the space and/or the carriage return, it formats normally. DH85868993 (talk) 21:20, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
I am not a moron and there is no carriage break. Something changed in wikitext editor in the last month or so. What is there, is two spaces. This happens with just one space as well, just before some sort of bracketed text like this. I end up having to change the width of the browser window to move the juxtaposition of the long thing with what is just before it, to be in the middle of the window instead of at the end, and then I can resolve it. But something broke in the wikitext editor to make this something i now have to stop and juggle to fix instead of just working like it should. And yes i fucking know how to fix it. The problem is that it happens at all. The wikitext editor is inserting some kind of carriage break itself. I noticed there have been other problems with wrapping on this page. I have not seen this described here. Jytdog (talk) 21:23, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
actually this is being discussed above at #Editing box inserting bogus hard linebreaks (MacOS X, Chrome, about a month now, only on this site) Jytdog (talk) 21:36, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
  • I am experiencing this as well and had opened a thread below about this, here. I am using chrome on a mac and this error is completely about wrapping and is dependent on the width of the browser window. I have no gadgets enabled, just the plain wikitext editors. Jytdog (talk) 21:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
btw, what you see there is an example of this. I had first saved the comment above in this diff, and i edited it a bit further in this diff, and when I saved that, you can see that my signature didn't wrap correctly and a hard stop was added by the wikitext editor. this never used to happen. Jytdog (talk) 21:42, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
  • I've reported a ticket about this now, but i'm still not entirely sure what combination of settings is triggering this, so if someone could clarify that, then maybe someone can fix it. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 22:41, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
What exactly do you want to know? Jytdog (talk) 03:36, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
btw i just logged in with firebox (most recent version for mac) and i cannot make this bug replicate this in firebox. Jytdog (talk) 03:45, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
  • This is still happening. Jytdog (talk) 22:26, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
  • This is still happening diff Jytdog (talk) 13:01, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Something I have noticed (not new, it's always been that way) is when I want to move a sentence into a new paragraph. I position the cursor in front of it and press the space bar until the sentence starts at the beginning of the next line in the edit window. Then when I move the cursor back to the end of the new first paragraph and press "return" to format the second paragraph the start of the second paragraph shoots into the middle of the line and it renders in <pre> </pre> mode. A carriage return would surely just add a single space (and I don't see why it would add any space anyway). Repositioning by use of the delete key and/or space bar does not return the rendered text to normal. Is this another manifestation of the same issue? (talk) 14:22, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Is Google translate incompatible with wikitext?

Here's the original Portuguese:

Eu edito o suficiente para me sentir no direito de questionar, o que não significa, vejam bem, que isso seja um ataque a quem concorda ou aos editores que se empenharam em fazer tais alterações (Joalpe). Também queria deixar registrado meu repúdio a qualquer tentativa de substituir as infocaixas locais por infocaixas da wikidata. Todos os exemplos de usos dessas infocaixas automáticas foram em artigos pequenos onde não mais que meia dúzia de elementos são alimentados. Me pergunto o quão prático seria ficar alimentando infocaixas como aquela que está em El Greco ou mesmo algumas ainda maiores. E quando essa informação precisar ser atualizada, o que acontece às vezes, sempre precisaremos ficar indo na wikidata? Discordo de tudo isso.--Rena (discussão) 04h29min de 12 de outubro de 2017 (UTC)

Here's what Google Translate makes of it:

I edit enough to feel right to question, which does not mean, mind you, that this is an attack on anyone who agrees or editors who have made a commitment to make such changes (Joalpe). I also wanted to register my repudiation of any attempt to replace the local infocaixas by lobbies of the wikidata. All examples of uses of these automatic infocaixas have been in small articles where no more than half a dozen elements are fed. I wonder how practical it would be to feed infoca- tions like the one in which does not mean, mind you, that this is an attack on anyone who agrees or the editors who have made such changes (Joalpe). I also wanted to register my repudiation of any attempt to replace the local infocaixas by lobbies of the wikidata. All examples of uses of these automatic infocaixas have been in small articles where no more than half a dozen elements are fed. I wonder how practical it would be to feed infoca- tions like the one in which does not mean, mind you, that this is an attack on anyone who agrees or the editors who have made such changes (Joalpe). I also wanted to register my repudiation of any attempt to replace the local infocaixas by lobbies of the wikidata. All examples of uses of these automatic infocaixas have been in small articles where no more than half a dozen elements are fed. I wonder how practical it would be to feed infoca- tions like the one in All examples of uses of these automatic infocaixas have been in small articles where no more than half a dozen elements are fed. I wonder how practical it would be to feed infoca- tions like the one in All examples of uses of these automatic infocaixas have been in small articles where no more than half a dozen elements are fed. I wonder how practical it would be to feed infoca- tions like the one inEl Greco or even some even bigger ones. And when that information needs to be updated, what happens sometimes, will we always have to stay on the wikidata? Symbol declined.svg I disagree with all this .-- Rena (discussion) 04:29, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

"El Greco" is a wikilink. You will see that when Google Translate reaches it it doesn't put it in but repeats the preceding text four times before entering the wikilink and carrying on to the end. Why is this? (talk) 11:20, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Google Translate is a pile of c**p and is incompatible with everything, not just wikitext. Stay well away. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:31, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Google is incompatible with wikitext in the sense that it doesn't know which parts of the text is code and should not be translated. You should have said how you used Google Translate. I could not reproduce your result until I found your text is from pt:Wikipédia:Esplanada/propostas/Utilização do Wikidata em infoboxes (3ago2017) and I entered the url in Google Translate. That means Google is not working on the wikitext (the source text when you edit) but on the rendered page. I don't know why Google Translate copies some of the translation. I don't get copies for other tested Portuguese Wikipedia texts with wikilinks. "El Greco" is not translated because Google correctly guesses from the capitalization that it is a proper noun. We also say El Greco in the English Wikipedia. Google translates "el greco" as "the Greek". PrimeHunter (talk) 12:42, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
El Greco is presumably Spanish for "The Greek". The Portuguese equivalent is O Grego. Maybe Google was foiled by the change of language. Were all of the wikilinks you tested on pt:wp Portuguese ones or were some in other languages? (talk) 14:03, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
My tests included pages at pt:Special:WhatLinksHere/El Greco with the same El Greco link in running text, e.g. pt:Toledo. Regarding your example, if I enter the quoted sentence "Me pergunto o quão prático seria ficar alimentando infocaixas como aquela que está em El Greco ou mesmo algumas ainda maiores." in the box at and select Portuguese to English then I get: "I wonder how practical it would be to keep feeding infocaels like the one in El Greco or even some bigger ones." If I change it to "el greco" but keep the sentence then I oddly get: "I wonder how practical it would be to keep feeding infocaels like the one in El Greco or even some even bigger ones." Here "El Greco" is the same as before but a second "even" is added near the end. My former test was with "el greco" alone which gives "the Greek", while "El Greco" alone stays as "El Greco". PrimeHunter (talk) 17:31, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Tech News: 2017-45

18:44, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

The Community Wishlist Survey 2017

Hey everyone,

The Community Wishlist Survey is the process when the Wikimedia communities decide what the Wikimedia Foundation Community Tech team should work on over the next year.

The Community Tech team is focused on tools for experienced Wikimedia editors. You can post technical proposals from now until November 20. The communities will vote on the proposals between November 28 and December 12. You can read more on the 2017 wishlist survey page. /Johan (WMF) (talk) 20:15, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Edit summaries for moves

Currently edit summaries for moves read (Jenks24 moved page Example Link 1 to Example Link 2: [reason]). I would prefer that the username be removed from the summary so it reads (Example Link 1 moved to Example Link 2: [reason]). This is because there are only a limited number of characters available in edit summaries and the current format needlessly uses a lot more of them than necessary, resulting in chopped off reasons (see for example my recent contributions). The username is unnecessary because you are either looking at the history page where you will see the username next to it or you are a browsing a user's contributions in which case again you already know the username. Plus you don't get caught out by username changes. I'm also fairly confident this is how page move edit summaries used to be set up prior to 2012 or 2013.

My questions for VPT are: can this be changed at enwiki or do I need to create a Phab ticket? If it can be changed locally, how? Thanks, Jenks24 (talk) 06:46, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, looking at MediaWiki:1movedto2 it looks like the username is automatically pre-pended. So Phabricator it would be needed, unless the movesummary is created by another message. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:19, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
MediaWiki:1movedto2 doesn't say "page" and translatewiki:MediaWiki:1movedto2/qqq says "only used on IRC" so I don't think that's the message. shows MediaWiki:Logentry-move-move is used in Special:Log/move, confirmed by translatewiki:MediaWiki:Logentry-move-move/qqq. In the move log $1 is a linked username. The username is unlinked in the page history edit summary but I suspect MediaWiki:Logentry-move-move is also used there, just called with an unlinked username as $1. That appears to cause a complication: If we remove $1 from MediaWiki:Logentry-move-move to avoid username duplication in the page history then no username at all is shown in the move log. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:54, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks P