# Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 167

## Tech News: 2018-28

23:09, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

## Bug in Special:BlockList?

Special:BlockList appears to be synthesizing various bits together from the block log and getting incorrect reads. According to this, Ian.thomson made a checkuser block on July 2 but from the block log, it may be seen that the active block is my CU block made on July 8. Is Special:BlockList borked?
— Berean Hunter (talk) 19:48, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Seeing as I'm not a CU, I'd say so. Maybe it's because I'm the original blocking admin and everything since has been changing the reason for the block (rather than starting a new block)? Ian.thomson (talk) 19:56, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Think you're onto something. Not too familiar with this, but if one of you can find another "changed block settings" instance, where one admin blocked and another changed the settings, it may be the same. Home Lander (talk) 20:00, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes. This block is another incorrect one that has Zzuuzz revoking talk page access but clearly it was Kuru's block. Zzuuzz did the former active block.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 20:10, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
It looks like this has been broken since 2014 when someone made reblocks update the existing block and no one thought to update the blocker when doing so. Someone should file a task in Phabricator. Anomie 22:32, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Done It is T199174. Cheers,
— Berean Hunter (talk) 01:22, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

## Inverting CSD log

Hello all, A bit ago I posted at the help desk regarding the possibilty of inverting my CSD log. Nothing came of it, so I did some search on my own and came up dry. What I wish to do is make it so my CSD log displays backwards, e.g.-->: August 2018 then July 2018 then june 2018 etc and also have backwards integers; 70-69-68-67-66 etc. I did some search for mediawiki code, and couldn't find anything, on wiki searches netted useless stuff like this rotation template, but I want the text to be displayed normally. Most logs like the daily AFD and DelReview load this way, and the TeaHouse also did it for a while back. Also, can this be done in such a way as to make Twinkle compliant, rather have TW try to make a new month at the bottom every time I tag something? Thanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 20:52, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Need it to display like that for everyone, or just for you? —Cryptic 21:17, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
For me would work, as I am probably the only person who looks at it often, unless politeness or ease of execution would dictate otherwise. Thanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 21:26, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
The real answer is to make Twinkle support this natively. But since that's unlikely to happen, and at the risk of making real web developers who actually know what they're doing cringe, here's a first approximation: put
body.page-User_L3X1_CSD_log #mw-content-text ol { display: flex; flex-direction: column-reverse; }

in User:L3X1/common.css to reverse the per-month lists (and break the numbering). Put
At Phabricator, Marostegui wrote that the wgReadOnly message will show: Scheduled maintenance on enwiki from 06:00-06:30 UTC. Database in read-only mode. --Pipetricker (talk) 09:48, 16 July 2018 (UTC) (soon going mostly off-line for a couple of weeks) I just noticed that the above message will be preceded by the message in MediaWiki:Readonlywarning. --Pipetricker (talk) 18:01, 16 July 2018 (UTC) You can still run Sitenotices; CentralNotice doesn't disable that. Sitenotices have the advantage of not 'leaking' to other wikis. (CentralNotice shows its English-language messages if you set your user interface language to English, no matter what wiki you're on, which means that it is less than ideal for something affecting only the English Wikipedia.) IMO there are two major purposes in telling regulars here about this kind of event in advance, in addition to a banner during the event itself. The first is that you know exactly who's going to get most of the questions about it afterwards: you. The second is that a 30-minute outage during a 60-minute edit-a-thon would be a pretty bad experience, so ideally people who are planning events will be able to find out what's happening, and schedule around it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:47, 16 July 2018 (UTC) This is starting in around 37 minutes from now. Cheers. JCrespo (WMF) (talk) 05:23, 18 July 2018 (UTC) ### While you've all got your calendars out Please make a note that there will probably be another round of server switch testing in a few months, with the attendant read-only time. Current best guess is "switch to" in mid-to-late September and "switch back" three weeks later, in October. There will naturally be about a hundred reminders between now and then. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:03, 13 July 2018 (UTC) ### Suggesting this Sitenotice I don't really have time for this now, but I will post an edit request at MediaWiki talk:Sitenotice in one hour from now, for the following notice, unless there's already a notice up by then: The English Wikipedia will be read-only for up to 30 minutes beginning 06:00, 18 July UTC (check current UTC time), because of maintenance work. Everyone will be able to read the wiki, but you won't be able to edit. Feel free to suggest improvements, of course. --Pipetricker (talk) 01:33, 18 July 2018 (UTC) Note: No Sitenotice was posted. --Pipetricker (talk) 09:00, 18 July 2018 (UTC) ## ERIC Would anyone have any advice on how to add an optional access parameter to {{ERIC}} that would match the doi-access parameter of the CS1 templates by replacing the standard arrow icon used by external links with a green lock (i.e., )? 142.160.89.97 (talk) 20:41, 16 July 2018 (UTC) Try {{ERIC/sandbox}}, which will display the lock when you set |lock=yes. If that works for you, I will enable it in the main template--Ahecht (TALK PAGE ) 21:17, 16 July 2018 (UTC) That's perfect. Thank you very much, Ahecht! 142.160.89.97 (talk) 21:22, 16 July 2018 (UTC) I would be better to modify {{Catalog lookup link}} template. Ruslik_Zero 21:29, 16 July 2018 (UTC) I certainly wouldn't object to that, Ruslik0. 142.160.89.97 (talk) 21:36, 16 July 2018 (UTC) @Ruslik0 and 142.160.89.97: {{Catalog lookup link}} is an incomprehensible mess, with wikitext if statements nested 10 deep. I don't want to even try to attempt to modify it. It would be a perfect candidate for a Lua rewrite, and the lock icon could be incorporated into that, but I don't have time for a rewrite at the moment. --Ahecht (TALK PAGE ) 22:09, 16 July 2018 (UTC) As someone who is no template expert and who has no experience with Lua, why is Lua preferable? 142.160.89.97 (talk) 04:56, 17 July 2018 (UTC) Because Lua is a real language? I agree that {{catalog lookup link}} is an incomprehensible mess. Code that resembles a wall of text is never good. Adding access icon support to that template as it exists now would only make things worse. The green access icon originated at cs1|2. Most source identifiers supported there link to sources that lie behind a registration-/pay-wall. Some source identifiers occasionally link to free-to-read sources, (doi, jstor, etc), those identifiers may be marked with the green access icon using |<id>-access=free; some identifiers are never free-to-read. At cs1|2, isbn, ismn, issn, oclc, etc do not get the access icon because they do not link to a source but rather, link to information about the source. {{catalog lookup link}} is transcluded by the stand-alone identifier templates {{ISBN}}, {{ISMN}}, {{ISSN}}, {{OCLC}} for which an access icon is not appropriate; some identifiers are never free-to-read so the access icon is not appropriate for them. Further, as currently written, {{catalog lookup link}} can render links to multiple identifiers so the access icon support would require some sort of mechanism to identify which of the links in the list get the lock and which do not. {{ERIC}} uses {{catalog lookup link}}: {{ERIC|24680|12345|9876|lock=yes}} ERIC 24680, 12345, 9876 – these numbers are made up, but what if 12345 is not free-to-read? or what if it is the only one that is free-to-read? Trappist the monk (talk) 11:47, 17 July 2018 (UTC) In the case of ERIC, about 25% of the items are free to read. Obviously, the lock icon would not be used if all the items listed aren't free to read. --Ahecht (TALK PAGE ) 15:00, 17 July 2018 (UTC) I applaud your optimism, but I think that nothing is obvious. Editors will apply the access icon parameter when only some of the sources are free-to-read. Because it amused me to do it, I have hacked a first version of Module:Catalog lookup link. Examples at Template talk:Catalog lookup link. Trappist the monk (talk) 15:20, 17 July 2018 (UTC) I've copied the changes over to {{ERIC}}. If there is consensus to add the option to {{Catalog lookup link}}, it can easily be shifted to there. --Ahecht (TALK PAGE ) 21:35, 16 July 2018 (UTC) I updated the template so that it uses the |url-access= parameter in the same way that the CS1 templates do instead of using |lock=yes. To display the green lock, you now have to use |url-access=free. This provides the ability to use free, registration, limited, or subscription. --Ahecht (TALK PAGE ) 15:00, 17 July 2018 (UTC) I was going to suggest that the better parameter name might be |<id>-access=free where <id> is the identifier, so for ERIC, |eric-access=free; alternately, a generic |id-access=free might be better. cs1|2 does not allow |url-access=free because urls that link |title= and/or |chapter-title= are presumed to be free-to-read so a free-to-read icon for those parameters is redundant. Identifiers, on the other hand, are commonly not free-to-read so a free-to-read icon has value. I note this simply for consistency among the various templates. Trappist the monk (talk) 15:20, 17 July 2018 (UTC) Forgot this: I don't think that use of these icons should deviate from the standard set by cs1|2 for the same icons. It should be presumed that identifiers are not free-to-read so the limited and subscription options are redundant to that presumption. Trappist the monk (talk) 15:26, 17 July 2018 (UTC) In CS1/2, it's different depending on the parameter. Links inserted with|url= are expected to be free to read by default, links inserted with other identifiers are either free or not free depending on ths source (so |doi= is presumed non-free, but |arxiv= is presumed free). In any case, this template is set up to default to the standard external link icon. --Ahecht (TALK PAGE ) 17:05, 17 July 2018 (UTC) Yes, I know all that. The general rule is: Don't highlight the norm. Links applied to |title= with |url=, are presumed to be free-to-read (the norm) so it is not possible in cs1|2 to highlight those links with a green access icon. In general, identifier links are presumed to be not-free-to-read (the norm) so it is not possible in cs1|2 to apply the subscription/limited/registration icons to identifier links. Some identifiers are always free-to-read (arxiv, biorxiv, citeseerx, pmc, rfc, ssrn) so cs1|2 automatically applies the green icon to these links. Your edit to {{ERIC}}, inappropriately I think, allows any of the lock icons to be applied to ERIC identifiers. Trappist the monk (talk) 09:44, 18 July 2018 (UTC) ───────────────────────── (edit conflict) Template:Catalog lookup link does not need to be implemented in lua -- it merely needs to use one of the deduplication templates like Template:For nowiki. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 15:27, 17 July 2018 (UTC) I've written something in Template:Catalog lookup link/sandbox1 that uses a constant level of nesting via {{separated entries}}, as a less insane pure-wikitext version. The testcasea are yellow, but everything looks visually the same. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 16:03, 17 July 2018 (UTC){{3x|p}}ery (talk) 15:50, 17 July 2018 (UTC) @Pppery: I know you are on a crusade against Lua, but this is precisely the sort of template that should be written in Lua. Not only does your version still spin up a Lua module (meaning there's no performance advantage), but it artificially limits the number of inputs to 9. Templates with arbitrary numbers of parameters should not be forced into wikitext for no reason. I tweaked Trappist the monk's module to get the output to match the existing template and implemented it at Template:Catalog_lookup_link/sandbox. I had been working on a shorter module at Module:Sandbox/Ahecht/Catalog_lookup_link, but Trappist's, although longer, is a bit cleaner. --Ahecht (TALK PAGE ) 16:17, 17 July 2018 (UTC) ## Problems with the edit window when there is WikiMarkup color-shading Referring to this thread, I still have a problem when I copy and paste text and delete it at the same time. The text doesn't get deleted, I get sent to the start of the edit window, and somehow this happened. Actually, that was my attempt to correct the mistake, and I did it wrong too.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 17:06, 15 July 2018 (UTC) Did you notice this error on Chrome or in Firefox or in both? -- Magioladitis (talk) 11:12, 16 July 2018 (UTC) It still happens with Edge at home. I have had the problems with Edge at a library as well. I can't remember now if it happened with Chrome. I'll post when i use Chrome again. No, I won't be using it at home.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 17:12, 16 July 2018 (UTC) Can you tell me exactly how you're cutting and pasting? I found phab:T174635, which is about middle-click on a mouse. It's on Linux, but if you're using middle-click, then it might be relevant. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:37, 16 July 2018 (UTC) I hold down the left mouse button, move the mouse over what I want to copy, let go of the mouse button, and press CTRL and C at the same time.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 18:39, 16 July 2018 (UTC) Thanks. It's probably not the same thing, then. I've started a new bug report at phab:T199739 for this. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:04, 16 July 2018 (UTC) The problem is not happening with Chrome at this library.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 16:42, 17 July 2018 (UTC) ─────────────────────────Back at home, I moved some content but when I copies and pressed delete, the content did not disappear. Instead, I had to correct a mistake which was caused by the suspected bug. I had to try again deleting the information I was deleting and copying elsewhere.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 15:48, 18 July 2018 (UTC) ## Wikipedia pages don't finish loading (waiting for wmflabs) Page loads, and all seems well. But the page often never actually finishes loading, and Firefox says it's waiting for tools.wmflabs.org. It's not my connexion, as it doesn't happen on other sites. Anyone else having this issue? Adam9007 (talk) 00:28, 19 July 2018 (UTC) xtools is gathering edit history on the newer pages. If a history exists, the load of the data for xtools is much faster. --Ancheta Wis (talk | contribs) 00:59, 19 July 2018 (UTC) Not just you. I seriously thought I was being hacked. It was on Firefox and Chrome, any page on English Wikipedia. Not on Wikisource, didn't happen on Commons. Then I had the idea to remove the last script I had added to my common.js, which was the Zhaofeng_Li/Reflinks.js. Removal of that script cleared everything for me. — Maile (talk) 01:10, 19 July 2018 (UTC) I don't know why but running Zhaofeng_Li/Reflinks eventually brings a "502 Bad Gateway" message. This started happening a few hours ago. Probably due to maintenance and hopefully it will clear up soon. MarnetteD|Talk 01:21, 19 July 2018 (UTC) Thanks. I've just commented out Reflinks in my common.js and everything seems to be fine again. Hopefully, I can uncomment it soon. Adam9007 (talk) 01:37, 19 July 2018 (UTC) No issues here. Amaury (talk | contribs) 01:45, 19 July 2018 (UTC) ## Commonscat template + alternatives for Pywikibot Hello, Pywikibot team needs help! There is quite old Commonscat template list in the framework and there is 5 years old request (phab:T57212) to update it. But none of us is enwiki user. Could anyone please update the task with current Commonscat templates, redirects and alternatives? We can then update the framework, but now we are just stuck waiting for response from any enwiki tech savvy. --Dvorapa (talk) 09:53, 18 July 2018 (UTC) @Dvorapa: Are you looking for Category:Wikimedia Commons templates, or do you want all the redirects as well? (Shouldn't most categories be linked through Wikidata now?) Jc86035 (talk) 14:02, 18 July 2018 (UTC) I don't know. On cswiki we have got one Commonscat template, no redirects, so I'm pretty confused by enwiki. The Pywikibot script adds main Commonscat template to the articles and skips articles already containing the template, any of the alternatives, or any of the redirects. So I would like to know, what is the main Commonscat template and what are the alternatives and redirects currently. --Dvorapa (talk) 20:54, 18 July 2018 (UTC) @Dvorapa: I think it's most of the templates listed under "C" in the category excluding sandboxes (I'm not sure whether you want the ones which only link to galleries). I have no idea why there are so many, but it's probably because of a combination of pre-Lua template inflexibility and individual preference (I have no evidence for this). Jc86035 (talk) 05:36, 19 July 2018 (UTC) In the Phabricator task there are also some others mentioned: \* Commonscatmore \* Airports by country category description \* BC year in topic ‎ \* C11 year in topic ‎ \* C12 year in topic ‎ \* C13 year in topic ‎ \* C14 year in topic ‎ \* C15 year in topic ‎ \* C16 year in topic ‎ \* C17 year in topic ‎ \* C18 year in topic ‎ \* C19 year in topic ‎ \* C20 year in topic ‎ \* C21 year in topic ‎ \* Cathead Conservatism in \* Cathead passenger ships of the \* Howtoreqphoto \* M1 year in topic \* Motorsport decade category ... They probably also do have some form of Commonscat link inside. Can some current list be found somewhere? --Dvorapa (talk) 06:26, 19 July 2018 (UTC) ## Template:Disambiguation needed display error? Is it just me or is the {{dn|date=March 2018}} at Public interest § Government (permanent link) linking to here and superscripting into the text above? —Nøkkenbuer (talkcontribs) 08:46, 19 July 2018 (UTC) Yes, but what is the problem? Ruslik_Zero 09:15, 19 July 2018 (UTC) ## Los Angeles area task force I need some help in cleaning up a move to Wikipedia:WikiProject California/Los Angeles area task force. Thanks. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 15:06, 19 July 2018 (UTC) What is the problem here? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:23, 19 July 2018 (UTC) ## Template expanding a range Can someone please suggest a way to expand a template to cover a range? It would be a template that would have two parameters, {{{1}}} and {{{2}}}, both of which are whole numbers with {{{2}}} greater than {{{1}}}. The template would then return a list with {{{1}}} and {{{2}}} and all the numbers in between. For example, I'm considering creating a template, {{USCongressOrdinalRange}}, that would be run like: {{USCongressOrdinalRange | 109 | 112 }}, and would return: 109th, 110th, 111th, 112th. It would effectively expand out to: {{USCongressOrdinal|109}}, {{USCongressOrdinal|110}}, {{USCongressOrdinal|111}}, {{USCongressOrdinal|112}}. I would appreciate any suggestions from template experts. Thanks.—GoldRingChip 16:38, 19 July 2018 (UTC) Implemented at {{x1}}. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 16:50, 19 July 2018 (UTC) Thank you, I'll have a look! —GoldRingChip 17:05, 19 July 2018 (UTC) Update: That worked great. Thanks. —GoldRingChip 17:15, 19 July 2018 (UTC) ## How to find articles that lack citations but have no tag placed on them? Heading basically says it all, I have come across (by chance) articles that have been unreferenced for years but do not have any citation-related tag on the page, (for example this one) is there a way to automatically generate a list of such articles? - CHAMPION (talk) (contributions) (logs) 05:56, 18 July 2018 (UTC) Snarky answer: That article had a citation-related tag on it. There are almost 200,000 articles in Category:Articles lacking sources from December 2014 and its companion categories. Helpful answer: look through any year in songs to get started, like Category:1990 songs. There are thousands of unreferenced song articles. Good look getting them deleted however; I poked the Wikipedia talk:Notability (music) bear a year or two ago and got tons of pushback. Before you tag a bunch of articles for deletion, please read WP:BEFORE. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:44, 18 July 2018 (UTC) Haha, missed that, but I'm sure I've seen such articles before (unsourced but no tag) and I added the tag to them (see for example this one, and yes, I am aware of WP:BEFORE and have had a success rate in nominating music articles for deletion. (check my AfD stats) However, I still want my original question answered, which is finding articles that lack citations but have no tag placed on them, like the diff that i just linked. Regards. - CHAMPION (talk) (contributions) (logs) 07:04, 18 July 2018 (UTC) It depends how perfect a list you want; there are many edge cases. For example, the {{unreferenced}} tag should not have been applied to the example you gave, Hey, Do You Know Me, because that article has an external link that, according to the template documentation, serves as a reference. A better example of an unreferenced article would be Tuzapán. --Worldbruce (talk) 02:15, 19 July 2018 (UTC) Perhaps a more technical way to find likely candidates for this description would be for someone with the appropriate Wiki-fu to generate a list of articles that contain 1) no citation-related tags, 2) no <ref></ref> tags, 3) no external links, and 4) no "References" header. bd2412 T 02:46, 19 July 2018 (UTC) I think that the ArticleWizard auto-inserts a ==References== heading. For item 3), you want "no URLs", not just no ==External links==. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:21, 19 July 2018 (UTC) ## Web form for automating tasks So the idea lab submission button opens a modal dialog with a form ... I'm assuming it'll eventually generate some MW content. Is that fully rolled out? Things as mundane an AFD and ITN require a lot of copy/paste of complicated templates in different places, it's screaming for a modal dialog and a wizard. --LaserLegs (talk) 15:56, 20 July 2018 (UTC) Twinkle can handle AfD nominations, though I don't know if it handles ITN. Jc86035 (talk) 16:05, 20 July 2018 (UTC) Yep, Afds are easy with Twinkle, though I've never heard of ITN built into it. Home Lander (talk) 23:37, 20 July 2018 (UTC) ## Template:Infobox road Can someone help to get the previous_dab and next_dab parameters to work for UK roads in Template:Infobox road, please? The article I've been looking at is M53 motorway. The syntax in the previous_route and previous_dab parameters was broken but fixing it results in the previous route link at the bottom of the infobox always pointing to a dab page, M50 motorway. This happens whatever is in the previous_dab parameter. That parameter works for other countries. For example, the previous route link in Alabama State Route 46 points to Alabama State Route 45 (pre-1957) when previous_dab is =pre-1957 and changing that to =xyz changes the link to Alabama State Route 45 (xyz). I'm guessing there is some code associated with country=GBR that disables the previous_dab parameter.--Cavrdg (talk) 12:19, 20 July 2018 (UTC) It looks like |previous_dab= is passed to Module:Infobox road's "browse" function, which then calls Module:Road_data/browse. It looks like the link is eventually produced by Module:Road data/strings/GBR, to which I have attempted to add a dab variable (copying from Module:Road data/strings/USA/AL). It didn't work, unless there is some purging or null-editing required to cause the modules to be re-parsed. That's as far as I got. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:47, 20 July 2018 (UTC) I have fixed the issue. I believe the problem was related to Lua's greedy regex rules, which were trying to treat all three of the conditionals (bracketed parts) as one. I split up the format string into a switch table on the state, which seems to work. For future reference, posting directly to Template talk:Infobox road will generally get a faster response. As the template/module maintainer, I have that page on my watchlist. -happy5214 20:33, 20 July 2018 (UTC) Nice work. I figured that Template talk:Infobox road would be a better place to get results, which is why I notified that page about this discussion. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:18, 21 July 2018 (UTC) Thanks both!--Cavrdg (talk) 07:45, 21 July 2018 (UTC) ## DRAFTNOCAT fix Category:AfC submissions with categories serves to collect pages which have both an AFC submission template and one or more category declarations — however, a couple of months ago, a user created the new {{Draft categories}} template, which wraps the category declarations in a "This page will be placed in the following categories if it is moved to the Article namespace." box and suppresses the page actually being filed in the categories. This is a good template, which eliminates the problem with having the category declarations present on the page — if it's not filing the page in the category, then the presence of a category declaration isn't causing a problem and doesn't need to be "fixed" — but while the maintenance category already knows to skip category declarations that are disabled in other ways (leading colon, being nested inside a hidden comment, etc.), it does not yet recognize that category declarations wrapped inside this new template are disabled and thus don't need attention from the maintenance queue. I'm not sure how the category actually generates its list of contents, however, so I can't fix it myself. Can somebody make it so that the category excludes pages that have their category declarations wrapped inside the {{Draft categories}} template? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 14:14, 21 July 2018 (UTC) I already made a request at Module talk:AFC submission catcheck#Template:Draft categories removes categories. There is a working sandbox version by WOSlinker so maybe it just has to be copied to the live module. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:59, 21 July 2018 (UTC) ## TemplateStyles enabled on English Wikipedia Hello, TemplateStyles have been enabled on this wiki. This follows an RfC on the feature from last month. TemplateStyles is a feature to allow non-administrators to write and manage CSS styles for templates. It allows contributors who edit templates to separate content and presentation. A good web practice that makes it easier to manage the layout of templates. If you don't edit templates, this will not have any impact on your contributions. TemplateStyles is useful for a few reasons. • It makes it possible for templates to work better on mobile. • It cuts out confusion on where to apply CSS rules. • Editing CSS is currently limited to administrators, which is a major barrier to participation. • All stylesheets must be loaded on all pages (whether they actually are used the page or not), which wastes bandwidth and makes debugging style rules more difficult. Thank you. CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 11:33, 19 July 2018 (UTC) There are also basic guidelines for TemplateStyles available. See: WP:TSTYLE. — AfroThundr (u · t · c) 12:09, 19 July 2018 (UTC) W00t !!!!!! Please rewrite templates to make use of this great new feature, allowing you to write cleaner templates, without inline style statements and with mobile responsiveness etc. At the same time (as always) be careful to not needlessly disrupt the wiki. (For instance, don't move the infobox styling into Module:infobox and accidently break the hundreds of templates that use infobox styling without making use of that Lua module). —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 12:18, 19 July 2018 (UTC) Yep, WikiProject Portals was mainly waiting on this so we could overhaul how portals look in mobile (among other things). We'll see how far we can take things now that we have stylesheets in our toolbox. — AfroThundr (u · t · c) 22:28, 19 July 2018 (UTC) How many wikis support TemplateStyles? Has TemplateStyles been universally enabled or only at a limited number of wikis? The cs1|2 templates and modules have been copied from en.wiki to a bunch of other wikis. At cs1|2 we have begun experimenting with TemplateStyles but I think that we will be wasting our time if TemplateStyles is only enabled on a select handful of wikis. For templates and modules that are used on multiple wikis, adapting these templates and modules so that they will work regardless of whether TemplateStyles has been enabled seems counterproductive. Will TemplateStyles become universal? If so, when? Trappist the monk (talk) 11:02, 21 July 2018 (UTC) According to phab:T199909, TemplateStyles will be enabled everywhere on 9 August. BethNaught (talk) 11:11, 21 July 2018 (UTC) Yep, the TemplateStyles deployment was just waiting on the global switch from Tidy to RemexHtml, which completed on 5 July. Now we will soon have global TemplateStyles enabled. — AfroThundr (u · t · c) 21:20, 21 July 2018 (UTC) ## Undesired italics in title Hi, please explain to me my idiocy: at Bratzillaz (House of Witchez) I see Bratzillaz italicized in the article title, but there shouldn't be italics. What formatting is controlling this? I don't see anything. I've tried purging the page cache. I'm sure it's something stupid that I'm missing. I know that I can manipulate it with {{DISPLAYTITLE}}, but I'm just confused why just the Bratzillaz is being italicized. Thanks! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:14, 22 July 2018 (UTC) Many infoboxes automatically add {{italic title}}. This will nearly always be correct when the infobox is used in the lead but often wrong when it's used later. Fixed with italic_title = no in {{Infobox television}} which was used later.[20] PrimeHunter (talk) 01:24, 22 July 2018 (UTC) Thank you, my friend. I guess the television infobox expects the parentheses to contain content like (season 1) or (2008 series), and the content outside to be the show title. Much obliged! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:34, 22 July 2018 (UTC) Basically yes. Wihthout italic_title = no, the infobox calls the general {{italic title}} which is used for many things (transcluded in 840,000 pages) and always expects something in parentheses to be a disambiguation which should be excluded from the italics. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:02, 22 July 2018 (UTC) ## Transparent png files Is there a limit to the dimensions of a png file above which transparent pixels are rendered as white? I've created a lot of png 'cut-outs' over the years, normally small logos and such for use in infoboxes, but recently I've had a couple of fairly large png files that don't render as transparent. The most recent one is File:Trump baby balloon.png (975 × 1,000 pixels, file size: 775 KB). I can't remember the other, but it was fairly large IIRC. nagualdesign 04:44, 14 July 2018 (UTC) There is a bug that was recently introduced into the mediawiki software that breaks PNG transparency in thumbnails. It's been reported at T198370, but no developers have responded to even triage it, and fixing it seems to not be a priority. --Ahecht (TALK PAGE ) 14:11, 14 July 2018 (UTC) @Ahecht: Okay, thanks for the reply. I was going to reduce the dimensions of the image but I'll just leave it be. Cheers. nagualdesign 14:36, 14 July 2018 (UTC) ### Transparent png has white background in the article Hi, why is it that despite File:Tracks game logo.png and File:Rock, Paper, Shotgun 2018 logo.png being transparent PNGs, their respective articles (Tracks (video game) and Rock, Paper, Shotgun) have white backgrounds? Anarchyte (work | talk) 10:29, 19 July 2018 (UTC) edited: 10:45, 19 July 2018 (UTC) That is currently being investigated, see the linked phab task. BethNaught (talk) 12:58, 19 July 2018 (UTC) ## Wordbreaking This is a discussion fork of Template talk:Nowrap#Wordbreak template. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:19, 22 July 2018 (UTC) This is minor issue, but at the same time, I don't think it is unimportant enough to ignore. When reading Wikipedia articles on my mobile phone, I have a habbit of viewing them on the Desktop view, instead of the default Mobile view. Usually, this doesn't cause problems. However, the other day, I came upon the article MDMA and saw this. What happened here is that the full name of the substance, Methylenedioxymethamphetamine, is too long to fit between the article's border on the left and the infobox on the right, so the browser moves the entire lead down, creating a large empty space. I use a Samsung Galaxy S7. I initially fixed this issue by adding span tags around the word with word-wrap:break-word. I later replaced this with the superior word-break:break-all. I liked the result: before, after. I started a thread at Template talk:Nowrap#Wordbreak template, asking if we could have a template that did the opposite of {{nowrap}}. Redrose64 correctly pointed out to me that using a <wbr /> tag would also help. However, a dedicated template would have the browser figure out for itself how to break a very long word, relative to the situation. Looking for other situations similar to the one at the MDMA article, I browsed through all entries of Category:Stimulants on my Galaxy S7. I found the following articles with very long words in the lead that caused problems on my phone. 'Before' shows a screenshot of how it originally looked like. 'After' shows the result of applying word-break:break-all. 'Diff' shows the edit. Again, I know this is a minor issue, because in practice, words this long are very rare. Arguably, such long words may not even belong in the intro at all, since they clutter it needlessly. Still, I think it's worth considering the creation of a {{word-break}} template. Aside from fixing the above problems, it could also be used in small table columns, infoboxes, quote-boxes etc. which are not to exceed a certain width. Cheers, 10:03, 21 July 2018 (UTC) is Special:PermaLink/851312757 displaying better for you now? I used non breaking word separators in that example, and a nonwrapping template on this one: Special:PermaLink/851313087. — xaosflux Talk 13:00, 21 July 2018 (UTC) @Xaosflux: Eh... I have no idea what you were trying to do there. You seem to have done the exact opposite of what I had proposed. - 13:12, 21 July 2018 (UTC) Now the article looks like this on my phone. - 13:14, 21 July 2018 (UTC) I reverted back to your version, which also creates less then desirable line breaks as seen here. — xaosflux Talk 15:15, 21 July 2018 (UTC) Whaaat??! It doesn't work in FireFox?! Great... :-(. 15:34, 21 July 2018 (UTC) I've tried it on MS Edge. Doesn't work either. Well, lack of support by FF and Edge surely decreases the meaningfulness of my proposed template. While I do believe that FF and Edge will one day disappear and be replaced by Google Chrome (which I use on my laptop), both browsers are still frequently used. As of May 2018, 10.9% uses FireFox, and 3.9% uses Edge (source: W3Schools). - 15:42, 21 July 2018 (UTC) Also MSIE11 has same issue. — xaosflux Talk 15:43, 21 July 2018 (UTC) I wish I had an iPhone so I could try it on that. Do you happen to know a good iPhone emulator for trying out websites? Cheers, 15:48, 21 July 2018 (UTC) Ok, forget about this. The wbr tag is better after all. I've added a note on the documentation of {{Nowrap}} to prevent future confusion. - 16:33, 21 July 2018 (UTC) ## Consultation on the creation of a separate user group for editing sitewide CSS/JS On the contrary, I think this is a fairly huge change that more administrators and the enwiki community at large should take an interest in. Killiondude (talk) 19:57, 9 July 2018 (UTC) Eh, I don't know about that. I read the page (and the talk page), and the gist seems to be that the local bureaucrats will be able to assign the "delete the Main Page" button separately from the "install malware" button. We might choose to have an "WP:RFJS" to go alongside WP:RFA, but we're still the ones deciding who gets which rights. It doesn't seem like a big deal to me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:38, 12 July 2018 (UTC) • This is seeming fairly inactive here, and it just got removed as a conversation topic on policy. Surely some consideration of how this is going to be allocated as a user right needs to be considered, even if we're just going to say "admins who ask for it"? Nosebagbear (talk) 21:14, 18 July 2018 (UTC) If this is something that communities will be allowed to manage is still being discussed - a trend is that bureaucrats will be able to manage this locally, but follow the discussion at meta:Talk:Creation of separate user group for editing sitewide CSS/JS. — xaosflux Talk 21:19, 18 July 2018 (UTC) @Xaosflux: it is, but with the date approaching rapidly a reasonably conditional answer should probably be considered. At least one wiki is currently running its decision process on the issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nosebagbear (talkcontribs) 21:28, 18 July 2018 (UTC) Not everyone is proposing this be limited to admins. It's a technical thing, and could be available to those competent to do the work and vetted with a trust level WP:Template editor and WP:Page mover. 22:26, 18 July 2018 (UTC) This needs so much more trust than TE and PM: if you can serve someone Javascript then you can do anything they can do on the API, including admin functions like deletion and blocking. BethNaught (talk) 22:43, 18 July 2018 (UTC) Exactly, as stated by Tgr in the consultation, it is advised to give this to users who at LEAST have as much community trust as sysops. That doesn't mean you have to BE a sysop, but that at trust level, they are equal to sysops, just with ALSO skills in a particular area. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:17, 19 July 2018 (UTC) Note that you don't actually have to be an admin to be a bureaucrat either, even though a bureaucrat could make themself an admin if they wanted to. You don't have to be an admin to be a checkuser either. In both cases, though, most if not all are also admins just because that's the way trust tends to work, and it could turn out to be the same for this new group. Anomie 15:45, 19 July 2018 (UTC) No, that's not really correct. WMF policy requires all editors who have access to particular, sensitive information to have gone through a community vetting procedure at least as stringent as that for RfA. On emwp, the only procedures that would likely count presently are RfA, RfB and the ArbCom elections. Since no successful candidate at ArbCom and RfB has been other than an admin, it follows that currently, only admins, de facto, can take on the advanced permissions you mention. --RexxS (talk) 12:43, 20 July 2018 (UTC) "No one has" is not at all the same thing as "no one can". Also, BTW, Wikipedia:CheckUser#cite_note-1 says that the current CU appointment process also satisfies the WMF requirement (with reference to this diff). Anomie 15:10, 20 July 2018 (UTC) • So, a few potential options, (if it turns out to be relevant!) bearing in mind trust level and that EnWiki is so massive that if even 10% (or 5%) of admins along that's a comparatively hefty number in an initial wave • a) Self-nomination - seems very risky and somewhat counterproductive in eliminating potential risks, though certainly the easiest • b) External Admin nomination - in a similar vein to most WP:PERM rights, perhaps with multiple admins required. Most admins are on good terms with multiple other admins and I'm concerned that any reasonable number wouldn't act as a particularly tough filter. That said, it might be a good intermediate level to handle the initial large group • c) Pseudo-RfA or election - this would be chaotically large for the numbers enwiki would face • d) ArbCom Decides - perhaps a good method for adding future individiuals but they're busy individuals and would lose a lot of time to handle a large initial group • e) Bureaucrats - this might be a better method, if there are sufficient active (7+?), they have some of the highest trust rates in the community and make judgement calls on admin rights. Whether we required 1 bureaucrat, or a certain number would obviously be up for consideration if this was thought best Nosebagbear (talk) 00:03, 19 July 2018 (UTC) in the last 30 days, we've had about 6 or 7 admins that actually would have needed this, I don't think we're going to have a "flood" of people that can't be handled. — xaosflux Talk 01:16, 19 July 2018 (UTC) To ease the transition, would it make sense to automatically grant this userright to all currently active administrators in good standing who have previously made edits to sitewide CSS/JS pages? They've alredy shown that they can be trusted eith editing those pages.--Ahecht (TALK PAGE ) 15:15, 19 July 2018 (UTC) If we want to go this way Ahecht, perhaps "in the last (year?)" would be a good caveat. — xaosflux Talk 15:19, 19 July 2018 (UTC) @Ahecht: I'd hesitate to do it automatically, but giving those admins a fast-track "on request at WP:BN, subject to 'crat veto" (offer valid until some reasonable date) seems reasonable to me. Anomie 15:49, 19 July 2018 (UTC) @Tgr: I wonder if this will affect the new "TemplateStyles" which probably will be used on millions of pages when people start using it. Christian75 (talk) 23:17, 21 July 2018 (UTC) it won't (as noted in the FAQ). --Tgr (talk) 13:52, 22 July 2018 (UTC) ## Should tool results be indexed? I just found https://tools.wmflabs.org/apersonbot/pending-subs/ in the results page of a google search. Is the intent that the output of tools get indexed? Are we missing a robots.txt entry somewhere? -- RoySmith (talk) 14:37, 22 July 2018 (UTC) @RoySmith: I think it wouldn't be possible or ideal to force people to prevent their tools from being indexed; and in any case some tools like Pageviews Analytics are useful for non-editors and you would expect them to show up in a search, and some others aren't hosted by the WMF. Jc86035 (talk) 03:27, 23 July 2018 (UTC) ## Stoopid question from a long-time user How do I get "[restore this version]" turned on? And on what pages would I expect to see it, "Revision history"? Ping me when you respond, if you'd be so kind. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:11, 23 July 2018 (UTC) Are you referring to the Twinkle button? I think it only displays on the links labelled "diff" in the revision history; the revision slider might be causing it not to display sometimes so I'm not perfectly sure. Jc86035 (talk) 03:15, 23 July 2018 (UTC) OK I turned on Twinkle, and turned off the revision slider and it seems to be working mow. Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:12, 23 July 2018 (UTC) I have the revision slider enabled; it's just hidden by default, and Twinkle displays fine. Note that Popups is even quicker than Twinkle when you don't need an edit summary while reverting to an older version (vandalism from multiple users, for example). Home Lander (talk) 14:29, 23 July 2018 (UTC) ## MassMessage didn't send to everyone on the list Hi! I recently sent out a MassMessage invite (here). While I and some others on the list received it, not everyone did. So I am wondering: 1. What went wrong? 2. Should I resend? Thanks for any help and please ping me! :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 18:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC) the log only shows 2 misses for bad users, can you give examples of some non-deliveries? — xaosflux Talk 18:45, 22 July 2018 (UTC) A source comment at your link says: "Message sent by User:Megalibrarygirl@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_in_Red/Outreach/List/Art%2BFeminism/2018&oldid=848063351". I guess you thought you were using another list. PrimeHunter (talk) 19:18, 22 July 2018 (UTC) Thank you both, Xaosflux and PrimeHunter. I must have used the wrong list. What a mess. We've sorted it out. I appreciate both of you looking into this for me. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 20:30, 23 July 2018 (UTC) ## Help with making proportional, accessible table to visualize units of time I've been working hard the last few months on cleaning up the article Traditional Chinese timekeeping. I've gotten it to where the written information is clear, but I want to make a visual aid to replace the current, very confusing one. I'm trying to stay away from plain images, since they aren't the best for accessibility, and instead use a table to better display the relationships between the units of time. I've attempted to create a table in my sandbox, but I'm running into a few problems. • The four columns of information won't display properly without a blank fifth column in each row. This would be fine, but I can't figure out a way to hide the blank column across browsers. • style="visibility:hidden;" seems to work to hide the cell in Chrome, but has no effect in Firefox. • I've also tried using CSS to hide the whole column, but that breaks the table formatting. • Making the table horizontal would fix needing a blank column (or row, in this case), but the table is so long horizontally it'd break most people's browsers to see it all. • The height of each row is important to visualize the time data properly, but this seems to vary from browser to browser. For some reason, the rows with "00:24:00" and "01:36:00" are showing up as tiny in Chrome, while they're the same height as all the rest of the rows in the first column in Firefox. I can find nothing in my code to explain why these two particular rows are affected and none of the rest are. • I'm not sure if this table makes any sense to people with screenreaders. Can someone with a screen reader tell me if they can make sense of the relationships between the items in the columns? Any suggestions for fixing or changing this table would be welcome. I'd like something like the Buddhist traditions timeline, where the chronological data is roughly proportional to how it's displayed on the screen. A different type of table or graph could work just as well, as long as it's proportional and accessible. -- A garbage person (talk) 15:38, 21 July 2018 (UTC) Thanks for considering screen reader users like me. My knowledge of how to construct tables is fairly basic. As far as I can tell the main problem with your table accessibility-wise (and I'm not sure what you can do about them) are the fact thatg each row has a different number of columns, and the left-most column (which occurs every 24 minutes). However keeping these things in mind, I can for example trace the Kè column down and get the idea that a kè lasts 14 minutes and 24 seconds (or a hundredth of a day), which is far more than I can do with the graphic. If you haven't seen them, you might want to check out the data tables tutorial under the accessibility guidelines page and ask about the table at the accessibility guideline's talk page. Graham87 03:46, 22 July 2018 (UTC) Thank you for taking the time to test it, Graham! I just found a section in the Help article for tables on scrolling, which might solve my page-breaking problem. I've re-made the table as a horizontal one in a scrolling box. Would you mind going to my sandbox again and see if the new first table makes sense? -- A garbage person (talk) 19:08, 23 July 2018 (UTC) Thanks; that's a lot better now! Graham87 01:17, 24 July 2018 (UTC) ## Watchlist "improvements" - no they're not Who just turned off "Hide the improved version of the Watchlist" at , and could they please stop fooling around with my settings? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:34, 16 July 2018 (UTC) My watchlist is all 'bleeped' up. Wish the big wigs would stop messing around with such things, without a consensus. GoodDay (talk) 18:39, 16 July 2018 (UTC) +1 for please turn this of NOW. I've had it turned on as beta, I found it detrimental to my Wikipedia editing, and turned it back off. WMF, you again behind this? --Dirk Beetstra T C 18:42, 16 July 2018 (UTC) Hi, My watchlist has changed and not for the better, How do I change it back ?, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 18:38, 16 July 2018 (UTC) See above discussion. GoodDay (talk) 18:40, 16 July 2018 (UTC) Ah thanks, Header removed, I really do wish they'd stop with the bullshittery, Everything should be OPT-IN - If you want new things opt-in. –Davey2010Talk 18:44, 16 July 2018 (UTC) Did it not ask? Went I last went to the watchlist, it showed a little popup, and then asked me if I wanted to opt out. ~ Amory (utc) 18:54, 16 July 2018 (UTC) Well, if it was, User:Amorymeltzer, it was pretty hidden. Anyway, where do you turn it off when you missed it (or did not get it)? --Dirk Beetstra T C 18:56, 16 July 2018 (UTC) And is it right next to the standard-edit-window "improvements" - which they are also not. --Dirk Beetstra T C 18:58, 16 July 2018 (UTC) (edit conflict) Hi Amorymeltzer, Nope a little box came up saying it's a new watchlist then that was it, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 18:59, 16 July 2018 (UTC) The setting is in the watchlist tab of your preferences (Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist) with the name "Hide the improved version of the Watchlist" under the heading Opt out of improvements. Not sure why I got it and you didn't Davey, especially if you got the first one. ~ Amory (utc) 19:00, 16 July 2018 (UTC) I have no idea why, Ah well many thanks for your help :) –Davey2010Talk 19:04, 16 July 2018 (UTC) ───────────────────────── This might be related to a global prefs problem. I'll ping the project manager to make sure that she knows about it. She told me earlier today that extensions that set "hidden" preferences (like the RecentChanges filters and "remember my last editor" for VisualEditor's single edit tab mode – all things that you can't just edit by going to Special:Preferences) are having problems right now, and perhaps this is related. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:15, 16 July 2018 (UTC) Okay, now I can give you a correct answer: This is related to the watchlist filters graduating out of Beta Features. The pref technically didn't exist until the 11:00 PDT SWAT slot. And, as happens occasionally, there was a small problem with prefs, which is already being worked on. In the meantime, you can opt out manually at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist. The setting should be near the end of the watchlist page, located between the ==Token== and ==Revisions scoring== sections. If you don't see it (I didn't the first two or three times), try forcing the page to reload. (And if you still don't see it after reloading the page a couple of times, then please post.) The problem with the pop-up is that the opt-out button is on the second screen of the tour, so if you immediately cancel the tour, you won't see it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:03, 16 July 2018 (UTC) I quite like the changes, especially the ability to highlight various namespaces in different colours. Nthep (talk) 20:10, 16 July 2018 (UTC) For the ones who apparently didn't get the pop-up to opt-out, here is a screenshot of it. That graduation has been announced multiple times over the last month, on watchlist notice, on Tech News and of course on the VPT (last announce). Trizek (WMF) (talk) 10:16, 17 July 2018 (UTC) The communication on this was always a bit "clumsy" - that a feature was leaving beta to be under normal support isn't the same as forcing it to be opt-out. I'm so glad global prefs went live so I can opt-out ni one palce, because having to go through those popups at every single project would be a real pain. — xaosflux Talk 11:30, 17 July 2018 (UTC) It's broken the script that highlights usernames of Administrators. This puzzles me as I have related changes watchlists where the script works fine. Doug Weller talk 18:39, 17 July 2018 (UTC) I have tolerated this for so long- as I am editting intermittently this week. Why so complicated to turn the wretched things off? They may be cool but they just get in the way. Have I tested them? No I am here to edit WP and handle a long watchlist- not ignor parts of it. Could we establish a few guideline principles. The Watchlist is a list of changes- anything that reduces the screen area is a retrograde step. The default is what new users see- it must be simple to use and simple on the eye. If advanced users want extra- a simple button-like 'extra fields' in the edit Templates works when you need them. The verbage at the to of page is only necessary once- that can go too. These buttons everywhere shows 'we could have that too' design rather than a thought out structure- bad lack of design and bad HTML and use of the style-tag. ClemRutter (talk) 12:09, 21 July 2018 (UTC) ### New watchlist page layout What happened here? This new layout appeared this morning, The litter of controls takes up half the viewing area and is a dog's breakfast of different styles. Is this a prototype being tested to see if there is a reaction, or does everyone get it? Aymatth2 (talk) 13:07, 17 July 2018 (UTC) I quite agree. Mine appeared last night. I'd suggest the whole new panel needs a show/hide option. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:12, 17 July 2018 (UTC) Got it last night as well. Takes up about as much space as the notifications, explanations, panels, and so forth that I had before, though maybe that was somehow my fault. It's actually cleaned things up for me. I'm happy with it, but maybe if there was the option to put it all on one line it'd look nicer on some people's monitors? Ian.thomson (talk) 13:23, 17 July 2018 (UTC) (edit conflict) I use Timeless regularly, but I tried looking at this in Monobook and it does look a little broken compared to what I usually see (the buttons in the filters list don't display correctly). As in the picture there's a "hide" button at the right side of the box which says "Active filters"; I hadn't noticed this until five minutes ago. (It's possible to turn the new things off; see this section.) Jc86035 (talk) 13:30, 17 July 2018 (UTC) Quick link to turn it off if you wish: Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist and scroll down to "Opt out of improvements". —DoRD (talk)​ 14:57, 17 July 2018 (UTC) • Any objections to putting a ...wait for it..... watchlist notice up about the watchlist and where to change it in preferences in case you missed the popup? — xaosflux Talk 13:25, 17 July 2018 (UTC) I strongly support this idea. Natureium (talk) 14:12, 17 July 2018 (UTC) I see six buttons scattered around here, four of which are preferences (active/saved filters, live updates, changes/days). Surely they could all fit on one line, something like:  Mark all changes as seen Edit list of watched pages Change preferences This would be cleaner and take up much less space. How do we get it done? Aymatth2 (talk) 15:30, 17 July 2018 (UTC) • This good faith change should actually, in my opinion, be reverted. On Monobook there was a 4 or 5 second lag every time I looked at the Watchlist, and even though users can now opt out this will affect new users who may be uncomfortable with it if not fixed (at least on Monobook, and I'm now putting it back to see how it looks on other skins). Randy Kryn (talk) 16:28, 17 July 2018 (UTC) There is an opt out, you should use it if u dont like it. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 18:30, 17 July 2018 (UTC) Which is great and all to us users who were here before this new watchlist, who know this isn't the only form the watchlist can take, who know a lot of Wikipedia features have opt out options and who will thus opt out if they don't like it. The issue Randy Kryn describes is that new editors who dislike the watchlist may very well not even realize this is something they can opt out of, especially if they registered after the roll-out. AddWittyNameHere 18:39, 17 July 2018 (UTC) New users also dont know they can switch to monobook, but tend to be mostly fine. While arguably it might not be perfect, perfection is the enemy of good enough. Further improvements will follow naturally as more feedback comes in. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 19:06, 17 July 2018 (UTC) "Dump it in, then fix it if they squawk too loud?" Surely there could have been no consensus on cluttering up the top of the watchlist with all these buttons that will hardy ever be used, when a simple "Change preferences" button (as above) is all that is needed. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:22, 17 July 2018 (UTC) @TheDJ: If the watchlist was functioning entirely as-should, then I'd mostly agree with you. The problem is that beyond matters of opinion/preference (such as the many new options and filters), there are still some actual, objective flaws in there, especially the increased load-time in at least some set-ups. (Folks may have a preference for or against the new options, for example, but I'd be quite surprised indeed if anyone had a preference for lag. There may be folks who don't particularly care, as well as plenty folks who don't seem to be affected, but that's not the same thing). That should probably have been fixed before making it the default. (I also believe the lay-out/UI could certainly have been tightened up a bit beforehand. No, it might not be the most important thing ever to its functioning, but it plays a really big role in people's first impression and if one wants the largest possible amount of editors to give something a honest try, first impression matters a lot. It doesn't matter if it's good enough below the surface if people can't stand to look at it long enough to determine that fact.) AddWittyNameHere 23:52, 17 July 2018 (UTC) I've already restored mine to its previous incarnation, as I too was seeing something like the above. A few confusing buttons and a large void of white space. As software it’s not even beta quality and certainly not ready for ready for deployment, I am someone familiar enough with this noticeboard that I knew to look here for the answer, but I fear many if not most editors won’t know or work out how to disable it and so will just put up with it. It should be rolled back, or at least have a prominent notice on it telling editors how to revert the previous version.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 20:29, 17 July 2018 (UTC) "Further improvements will follow naturally"...I am not sure if I should laugh out loud, given that we are clearly saying that this is not experienced as an improvement, or be in terror of what might be still coming. Oh, no, I get it... this is a promise that this change will be reverted, right?OK it is technically a big improvement once one figures out the interface. See my comment below about improving organization of the buttons, though. Clean Copytalk 20:41, 17 July 2018 (UTC) He, if you all want to throw another fit, go right ahead. But it's my personal opinion as a volunteer that you guys had 6 months to give your feedback. 6 months where thousands of people tested. 6 months where improvements were made. And now you want to change the design for something you all are stating to not going to be using ? I really don't see the logic. Please explain. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 20:52, 17 July 2018 (UTC) I'm curious: where are the discussions by the beta testers? I'd like to see their reactions. Clean Copytalk 03:20, 18 July 2018 (UTC) I think you'll find comments at the project's talk page: mw:Edit Review Improvements/New filters for edit review. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:12, 19 July 2018 (UTC) This is another case of You don't like it? Opt out and stop complaining like a 3 year old that didn't have a glass of water with ice, rather than a glass of ice filled with water. There's a big notice explaining you how to opt out if you don't like it, and if you somehow didn't catch it for whatever reason (banner blindness, banner glitch that didn't show up), you now know how to opt out, so just do it and don't hold back improvements for the 99%. I don't like the new watchlist because it interferes with some advanced scripts I'm using, but as far as the default experience, this is a much better watchlist than the old one. The UI could use a bit of tightening, but that will happen over time as more people give it eyeballs, but not so much this should hold back the entire thing. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:57, 17 July 2018 (UTC) (ec) I'm sure a lot of work will have gone into this (most of which will probably go wholly unrecognised). But sorry, the six month countdown clock was not ticking for me. Perhaps I missed an announcement. On the basis of the above comments, the community doesn't seem to be desperately engaged in, or enthusiastic about, this development. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:01, 17 July 2018 (UTC) Eh, in such cases you tend to get the people who don't like it speaking up more than those who do. The question is if they have good arguments. I would like the new design were it not that it takes a long time to load the filter panel for me. BethNaught (talk) 21:13, 17 July 2018 (UTC) Yes, and I suspect, just like with the late-lamented "OBOD", the vast majority of editors will just say "when did I ask for this?", or "but it was OK before", or "how do I get rid of this, as it has no obvious benefit for me?", etc., etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:21, 17 July 2018 (UTC) I'm curious how many power editors have reenabled the OBOD through scripts. And I'm also curious to see whether the volume of complaints dies down as soon as a script is posted that reverts changes that cannot be opted out of. I find that I stop really thinking about a change that I personally find needless the moment I disable it in my preferences: if this is true for more people, we may reach a problematic situation when existing power editors are using a significantly different interface from new editors. Double sharp (talk) 02:53, 18 July 2018 (UTC) Jorm's Minor Adjustment to Watchlist Interface Here's my thoughts about what should change. Lots of vertical real-estate could be picked up here. Even more buttons could probably be squished into the top row and with decent CSS can overflow to multiple rows if the screen size required it. --Jorm (talk) 22:24, 17 July 2018 (UTC) Also, add this to your common.css:  .mw-rcfilters-collapsed .mw-rcfilters-ui-filterTagMultiselectWidget.mw-rcfilters-ui-filterTagMultiselectWidget.oo-ui-widget-enabled .oo-ui-tagMultiselectWidget-handle { margin-bottom: 0; } .oo-ui-tagMultiselectWidget.oo-ui-widget-enabled.oo-ui-tagMultiselectWidget-outlined .oo-ui-tagMultiselectWidget-handle { margin-bottom: 0; }  --Jorm (talk) 22:31, 17 July 2018 (UTC) • If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The Watchlist feature has been around forever and works well. I just want to see the list of changed pages. I will rarely if ever use the jumble of new buttons. A simple fix would be to make the new style a preference in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist. Change Hide the improved version of the Watchlist (Rolls back the 2017 interface redesign and all tools added then and since) to Use a button-based interface to change your options when you view your watchlist That is, make it opt-in rather than opt-out. Aymatth2 (talk) 00:00, 18 July 2018 (UTC) • Same opinion as Aymatth2. The new watchlist is very slow and takes ages to load. I don't think it's ready for full-scale deployment. DaßWölf 00:04, 18 July 2018 (UTC) I've changed my opinion, the old watchlist seems to load pretty slow too (maybe it's due to the number of pages), and I find the live update feature pretty neat. DaßWölf 01:21, 24 July 2018 (UTC) ───────────────────────── Possible bug: when I right-clicked/'open new tab' on the earliest of my green-dotted unseen changes, and then went back to the 'Watchlist' tab, every other previously green-dotted edit was turned blue, without me clicking on any of those edits. I liked the changes, but have had to revert until this issue has been fixed. Homeostasis07 (talk) 01:27, 18 July 2018 (UTC) • I find it fast, but unusuable for me as it breaks not just the script I use that highlights Admins (Admin highlighter) but also the one that highlights possible vandalism in yellow (not sure where I got that one). Doug Weller talk 07:35, 18 July 2018 (UTC) The new watchlist filters support highlighting edits flagged by ORES, so you can still get the vandal highlighting. — AfroThundr (u · t · c) 12:20, 18 July 2018 (UTC) • "the one that highlights possible vandalism in yellow" that is the highlight option under "Revision scoring on Watchlist" in the Watchlist sections of the preferences. The new watchlist ui does listen to this preference. However, if you have played with the new watchlist setttings, before disabling it in your preferences, then reloaded, instead of going freshly to that page, the old UI will apply the settings as you last had them in the new UI (as below with "Watchlist option "Expand watchlist to show all changes, not just the most recent" not working for me"). Simply select "Watchlist" from your personal tools and it should be fine (unless you actually disabled the option in your preferences of course). "breaks .. the script I use that highlights Admins" That is very weird. You have been reporting script problems on this forum for a while though and I've several times added all your scripts to my own script stack and have not been able to reproduce your problems when you were reporting them. I'm sure there potentially is a problem, but I'm just not hitting that exact sweetspot that you seem to hit. Unfortunately I'm not sure where to look for a fix for that right now :( —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 20:29, 18 July 2018 (UTC) • @TheDJ: yes, and I still have them but have given up trying to fix them. Oddly though I no longer have the problem. Doug Weller talk 11:07, 20 July 2018 (UTC) ### My watchlist stopped loading I was just using it a moment ago. Now I get a blank page. It's like my watchlist is deleted or something. What's going on?—CYBERPOWER (Chat) 19:33, 16 July 2018 (UTC) Does it start working again if you disable the new watchlist filters in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:06, 16 July 2018 (UTC) It actually randomly started working again with this new interface.—CYBERPOWER (Chat) 20:07, 16 July 2018 (UTC) You may have an issue with a broken script. Trizek (WMF) (talk) 12:18, 17 July 2018 (UTC) ### New watchlist UI and history page What I find disconcerting about the new watchlist user interface is that how it highlights unseen changes differs from how it is done on the history pages. Typically I will find an unseen change on my watchlist and select the history link for that page to see all of the unseen changes, so it's helpful to me if the unseen changes are flagged in the same way. Are there any plans to align the highlighting done on the history page with how it appears on the watchlist? isaacl (talk) 02:00, 18 July 2018 (UTC) Shhh don't give the devs any ideas :D — xaosflux Talk 02:59, 18 July 2018 (UTC) That's the idea: give them ideas! More ideas: I would like more choices of colour hues, in particular, less saturated ones. I find the background highlighting (and with the colourful diff viewer as well) a bit dark for legibility. isaacl (talk) 03:14, 18 July 2018 (UTC) I find it disconcerting, too; but I want the watchlist adjusted to be in line with history-page, and previous watchlist, usage. Even if you want to keep the outline bullet points, let them stand for unvisited pages, as un-colored-in circles intuitively, to me, stand for something unaccomplished, as on a machine-readable test answer form or a voter's ballot. It shouldn't be too hard to switch, or have in preferences. Dhtwiki (talk) 00:19, 19 July 2018 (UTC) Sorry, I should have clarified that I just mean the two should align. I find the current colour scheme for highlighting the background a bit intrusive, and so right now would prefer that the watchlist highlighting match its previous incarnation, which matches the history page appearance. However with the ability to choose a less saturated colour, it's possible I might gain more appreciation for a different highlighting scheme. isaacl (talk) 02:50, 19 July 2018 (UTC) ### Watchlist option "Expand watchlist to show all changes, not just the most recent" not working for me My watchlist is showing me only the most recent change to each page. I have "Expand watchlist to show all changes, not just the most recent" selected, and I have disabled the recent watchlist enhancements. I tried to uncheck and re-check both of the options, and it appears that the "Expand watchlist to show all changes, not just the most recent" option has no effect: with the "improved" watchlist enabled, I see all changes even if the "expand" setting is disabled, and with the improvements disabled, I see only the most recent change, no matter what the "expand" checkbox setting is. Can anyone else replicate this issue? I use the vector skin. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:16, 18 July 2018 (UTC) You are probably refreshing the watchlist page instead of navigating to it from your personal tools or Special:Watchlist. In the new setup, the new watchlist will reflect your settings in the url, and while it starts with your defaults, it will not realise automatically that you changed your preferences (this is a bit confusing I agree). Then when you disable the new filters, and refresh your watchlist, those settings as preserved in the URL are STILL being reflected into your watchlist results (aka the old watchlist, will listen to the url parameters of the new watchlist). By navigating to your watchlist from the personal toolbar, it will start fresh and take your new preference defaults into account. P.S. In the new watchlist, this specific preference corresponds to the filter setting "latest revision" (or the lack thereof). —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 15:32, 18 July 2018 (UTC) I've filed phab:T199920 about this, especially since I think it is a problem that we will see more often in the future in other areas of the UI. Fixing it might not be simple however especially as I don't think it is really high priority. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 20:17, 18 July 2018 (UTC) Thanks for that explanation. You could be right. I have disabled the new watchlist again until the UI display bugs can be worked out, and I will try clicking on the Watchlist link or using my bookmark to refresh it. While I'm here, does anyone know if there is a phab task to get rid of the (to my mind, arbitrary and unhelpful) calendar day boundaries within the watchlist? It's frustrating and unnecessary when I have "Expand watchlist to show all changes" turned on, and then go away for multiple days, to have to click on three separate links to catch up on a busy page like VPT. (I'm sure someone will suggest that I never go away for multiple days, and I can see where you're coming from, but sometimes it can't be helped.) – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:36, 19 July 2018 (UTC) Jonesey95, phab:T10681. --Izno (talk) 05:04, 19 July 2018 (UTC) Thanks Izno. I wasn't sure if this phab task applied only to Special:RecentChanges or to the Watchlist as well. I wonder why it has stagnated so long, when it seems to be not that hard. They sure did a lot of work to "improve" the watchlist for this latest revision. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:11, 19 July 2018 (UTC) ### Watchlist "live update" misleading icon When it's not active, it displays as a filled right-caret and normal text. When it's active, it becomes a filled box and inverse text. A right-caret is reasonable for something that could be activated I guess, but it's more usually associated with an expandable tree. A solid box is does not have any typical association with "active". In fact, because it's part of the inverse-text field, it appears as a background-colored box with a foreground outline. That means it looks exactly like an unchecked checkbox. Why are we re-inventing the UI wheel for a simple boolean option? DMacks (talk) 15:45, 18 July 2018 (UTC) The UI of the whole new interface needs a total revision. Clean Copytalk 17:28, 18 July 2018 (UTC) @DMacks: are you referring to the near universal symbols for play and stop applied here ? —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 20:14, 18 July 2018 (UTC) It's mixing multiple mode indicators. If you want to use normal/reverse (one of several standard ways of boolean toggle), or change of icons (if we are accepting a new paradigm of watchlists as a data stream), that would make more sense. It's the mixing, and the appearance of a contradictory meaning, that are my concern. Principle of least astonishment and all that. DMacks (talk) 04:31, 19 July 2018 (UTC) ## Remex: My page is recently broken and I can't figure out why A new parsing tool called Remex is now cleaning up the HTML output for a webpage. It may cause some pages to display in undesirable ways. Be patient while we work out the kinks, and feel free to report problems in a new subsection here: ### Visible bullets in infobox FYI: Pointer to discussion elsewhere See Template talk:Infobox musical artist#Visible bullets at Limp Bizkit. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:58, 5 July 2018 (UTC) ### Post-Tidy fix may be needed at Template:Infobox NFL team This link currently shows me different rendering of the bullets under "Playoff appearances (10)" and "Home fields" in {{Infobox NFL team}}. The Tidy version on the left renders normally, with bullets inside the infobox and aligned with the bulleted lists above these bottom sections. The post-Tidy version, which is currently live, shows the bullets for these two sections sitting just outside the box that outlines the infobox. I don't see an obvious cause of this problem. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:04, 6 July 2018 (UTC) I hacked the {{Infobox NFL team/sandbox}} with div tags wrapping the problematic list items. Is that terrible? It seems to work. If I put /sandbox into the edit above and preview it, everything looks fine. I wonder if a similar fix would work for Infobox musical artist, or if there is a more general fix that is needed. It seems like it would be a challenge to do something like this to every infobox field that might have bullets in it. And it doesn't explain why the "Team nicknames" section renders just fine. Is it because the header and data use different numbers in the broken sections? I don't know enough about how infoboxen work to know what effect that numbering has. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:18, 6 July 2018 (UTC) Jonesey95: See my response at Template_talk:Infobox_musical_artist#Visible_bullets_at_Limp_Bizkit. The same reasoning applies to this infobox. Presumably, fixing that module would fix this too. SSastry (WMF) (talk) 09:13, 6 July 2018 (UTC) ### Peculiar html rendering issue As of just the last little while, most of the html-defined fields I am currently using on my user page are suddenly rendering a vertical bar (|) that is not in the supplied text; this occurs only in fields which possess some degree of text however. I'm not even sure what the namespace is to which the "{|" syntax points, so I can't investigate further, but I assume that the problem is not isolated to my user page (if I made some kind of error which cause this rendering, it would have had to have been a while back and I can't imagine I went that long without noticing). I've been off project for a few days, so the alteration may have occurred at any point during as far as I know. Anyone have some thoughts? I'm not too concerned about the user page, but I do wonder if there are content or policy pages affected. Thanks in advance for any insight. Snow let's rap 01:23, 8 July 2018 (UTC) You have 4 dozen lint errors and Remex was just enabled. (I have consequently moved your section.) --Izno (talk) 02:30, 8 July 2018 (UTC) I believe the cause is <span style="border: 1px solid">, which is unclosed. Is it your intent to have that span? I think I got them all (and it was indeed that). There might be still remaining lint errors. --Izno (talk) 02:46, 8 July 2018 (UTC) I have cleaned the rest of the page a good bit. There are still some remaining lint errors that I don't want to fight with right now. I think they are due to some unclosed span tags bumping into block elements like the horizontal rules. Let me know if I didn't quite get some set of stylings right on the page. --Izno (talk) 04:26, 8 July 2018 (UTC) It all looks good to me, Izno. I had no idea about the Tidy->Remex shake-up and didn't realize the number of lint errors I had that would no longer get the benefit of Tidy. Thank you for clarifying the matter and for taking the time to clean up so many of the errors--it was a very generous use of your time! Snow let's rap 06:14, 8 July 2018 (UTC) ### Unclosed tag in a user message template I just realized the user message template {{Pending changes reviewer granted}} (formerly {{Reviewer-notice}} and {{Reviewer granted}}) had contained the code <tt>reviewer<tt> with an unclosed <tt> for good 4 years and have affected over four thousand User talk pages. It looks like the code had no effect on appearance but with the recent installment of the Remex parser it has broken all the pages the template was substed onto. Can someone fix them with a bot? (Or is someone already?) And I wonder if there is any other similar case where a subst template has plagued pages with unclosed tags... Nardog (talk) 15:47, 8 July 2018 (UTC) I'll request a bot task here for High/Medium Linter cleanups for Fluxbot - our review and approval process can be somewhat lengthy. — xaosflux Talk 15:51, 8 July 2018 (UTC) See Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Fluxbot 7. — xaosflux Talk 16:00, 8 July 2018 (UTC) As an FYI, in this use, we should probably use {{subst:tt|reviewer}} rather than fixing the unclosed tag. As for bot tasks, I think you should probably use separate tasks for this rather than a Fluxbot 7, regardless of bureaucracy. Not all changes can be automated and even those that can will have different approaches (especially e.g. obsolete elements). --Izno (talk) 16:39, 8 July 2018 (UTC) @Izno: these will mostly not be automated, just explicit batches if approved. As for the error and fix described above, fixing the bad tt close is the "obvious" fix for this error, and the one most normal editors would make, why would you not want to see it fixed that way? — xaosflux Talk 21:57, 8 July 2018 (UTC) Because it is not just unclosed, it is obsolete. Kill a second bird with the stone. --Izno (talk) 22:32, 8 July 2018 (UTC) But why subst {{tt}}? That adds extraneous code in the source. If you're suggesting substitution so as not to increase the transclusion count, then I'd rather see the <tt> tag removed entirely. Nardog (talk) 22:44, 8 July 2018 (UTC) The writer wanted special markup for this text, making there be no markup is a big step. I'll probably withdraw my BRFA on this, I expect this type of argument over every cause of each error to take place and I'm not going to deal with tracking a consensus build for each use case. — xaosflux Talk 23:00, 8 July 2018 (UTC) I guess you can just throw your hands up. :) I'd welcome these bot tasks--I just think it would be better to take them one at a time--otherwise people will argue that a certain change isn't in the scope of the task, or if it is they'll argue that the scope of the task was too broad, and then you're stuck pausing an entire task. --Izno (talk) 23:11, 8 July 2018 (UTC) The text was in quotes in addition to <tt> anyway... I'm fine with any option (closing, removing, or {{tt}}) except subst. Nardog (talk) 23:24, 8 July 2018 (UTC) @Izno: some of these pages are a mess, with variances of CODE, TT, SAMP, etc causing the entire page formatting to break - but there is no way I'm going to track a complicated series of fixes, if I come across these in normal editing the only thing I'm probably ever going to do is add/repair the closing tag - I'm well aware of the bureaucracy around here and that editors are passionate about different methods of markup. If there is consensus that making the pages "better" was fine this would be a non-issue, but trying to get a strong consensus for what the "best" is and changing pages from bad to "the best" in one step is way beyond my patience to manage. Feedback is still welcome of course! — xaosflux Talk 00:41, 9 July 2018 (UTC) I agree with Xaos about making the jump from "tt was used only for convenient styling" to "we should remove the styling entirely" as well. And yes, mostly just to not deal with the transclusion count. Our current template should probably subst/use the markup directly for that as well (or decide whether one of the tt replacements is better; maybe samp?). --Izno (talk) 23:11, 8 July 2018 (UTC) ### Horrible colour and font on article talk page On Talk:King George V-class battleship (1939) most of the text is in a horrible colour and font. I can't see what is causing this. Can anyone fix it please? DuncanHill (talk) 15:11, 9 July 2018 (UTC) Done. An old signature from Ed had a couple unclosed <font>...</font> tags. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 15:23, 9 July 2018 (UTC) Undoubtedly related to MediaWiki's new HTML parser attempting to fix broken HTML differently than Tidy did. I've fixed them. SiBr4 (talk) 15:31, 9 July 2018 (UTC) How odd, I swear I made the exact same changes you did at the same time (in 2 separate edits even), and it didn't even tell me that there was a conflict. Sorry if it seemed like I was trying to take credit or something. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 15:33, 9 July 2018 (UTC) • Thank you, looks a lot better now. DuncanHill (talk) 15:41, 9 July 2018 (UTC) • Talk:USS Nevada (BB-36) has the same issue, I think I fixed some of it, but there's a lot of that signature... Chris857 (talk) 18:20, 11 July 2018 (UTC) The level of my annoyance knows no bounds. --Izno (talk) 18:36, 11 July 2018 (UTC) ### Location Map Template Issues Locations of the 2018–19 Midlands 1 West teams Hi - hopefully someone can help me with this issue. I regularly edit English rugby union league pages on Wikipedia and use location map templates to show the teams in each league. I have not had any real issues until recently when I noticed that using position=top or position=bottom started to create an unusually large space between the location marking and the team in question (see examples below - Whitchurch, Longton, Dudley K). This has caused many of the pages to become very cluttered and make it difficult to work out where teams are. Would appreciate any feedback. Thanks. Jgjsmith006 (talk) 09:37, 10 July 2018 (UTC) This is due to an incorrect usage of {{location map~}} made visible by the recent changeover from Tidy to remexHTML. You shouldn't be wrapping the labels in divs to change their size. There is a dedicated parameter named "label_size" which should be used. I've corrected the Whitchurch label in your example, so that you may compare. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:59, 10 July 2018 (UTC) Also, 70% is way too small, it is very much against MOS:ACCESS#Font size. I can't read it, so I doubt that one or two other people I could name (RexxS for instance) can read it either. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:13, 11 July 2018 (UTC) Thanks Redrose. I will try and make it bigger but the problem is that there is often not enough space for all the times. Perhaps if the maps had more options when to place text (e.g. top left, bottom right etc) it might be easier. I wouldn't mind someone doing a proper West Midlands map (not just the county) so I could fit more of these teams in with bigger text. I had a go at creating maps but couldn't make head or tails of them. Do you know anyone who might be able to help me with this? Cheers. Jgjsmith006 (talk) 19:56, 11 July 2018 (UTC) Have you considered a dynamic map do achieve that goal? See mw:Help:VisualEditor/Maps for the easy way to do it (in the visual editor). A basic one is easy enough that even I can do it. ;-) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 02:06, 12 July 2018 (UTC) Nilfanion (talk · contribs) has created lots of SVG maps like this one. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 10:04, 12 July 2018 (UTC) Thanks guys will try your advice. The maps look better with the new labels and are much clearer at size 75. Nilfanion has done a map before for me but I had forgotten their details - I will get in touch - thank you all once more. Jgjsmith006 (talk) 19:45, 13 July 2018 (UTC) ### My page is recently broken and I can't figure out why The column of userboxes on my userpage is messed up. This happened very recently. It seems to be something to do with the table border wrapping User:UserboxMania/DayName on the subpage User:Spinningspark/Üserboxen but that's as far as I can get. SpinningSpark 16:23, 23 July 2018 (UTC) Should be fixed now. I added a float option to User:UserboxMania/DayName, so you can use it with float=none. -- WOSlinker (talk) 16:26, 23 July 2018 (UTC) Thanks for that Mr. Slinker. SpinningSpark 17:05, 23 July 2018 (UTC) ## Why does an extended confirmed user require pending changes review? Josve05a made edits to the article Emraan Hashmi which then appeared in Special:PendingChanges, and which I then approved. The thing is, this user is extendedconfirmed, which – as I understand it – should subsume the autoconfirmed flag. In any event, XTools lists him as having the autoconfirmed flag anyway. So, I don't get why I was asked to review his contribution on the page.--Newbiepedian (talk · C · X! · L) 02:58, 24 July 2018 (UTC) Likely because the article had been previously edited by an IP, whose changes do not appear to have been (previously) approved. 03:02, 24 July 2018 (UTC) Yeah, as above. The page had pending cahnges unrevised already when I edited the page. You did not specifically review my edit, but the current revision which included a non-reviews edit. (tJosve05a (c) 05:34, 24 July 2018 (UTC) ## Tech News: 2018-30 09:44, 24 July 2018 (UTC) ## User:Equazcion/CustomSummaryPresets.js Equazcion's CustomSummaryPresets user script appears to have stopped working. Does anyone know why, and how to get it working again? Any help would be much appreciated. -- Black Falcon (talk) 18:41, 21 July 2018 (UTC) Black Falcon, Done at User:Enterprisey/CustomSummaryPresets. Enterprisey (talk!) 05:17, 24 July 2018 (UTC) Thank you very much! I just installed it, and it works perfectly! -- Black Falcon (talk) 16:20, 24 July 2018 (UTC) ## Timeline rendering problem I came across the timeline at Eagles_(band)#Band_members, and there are some funky crooked lines starting in the bottom left corner and intruding into the timeline. Can someone figure out how to remove them? Home Lander (talk) 00:51, 23 July 2018 (UTC) Never mind. It appears to have been a "." in one of the band member's names. Home Lander (talk) 00:59, 23 July 2018 (UTC) You just needed to use use underscores to represent spaces, see mw:Extension:EasyTimeline/syntax#Special characters. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:47, 23 July 2018 (UTC) Spaces should work within double quotes, and they work without problems elsewhere (and neither should the "." be a problem), so I suspect that if 73c1d8f7870b​7b368a1d4d5d​9b2738d1.png was deleted (can an admin do that?) and the article then was reverted to that version, the re-generated timeline would look ok. --Pipetricker (talk) 11:40, 23 July 2018 (UTC) I figured it was a weird coding bug like that; thanks folks. Home Lander (talk) 14:25, 23 July 2018 (UTC) ───────────────────────── I believe you are correct that it would re-render correctly with the original code; see Special:Diff/851650814 where I rendered the original code with a test name and it did generate properly. Home Lander (talk) 18:11, 23 July 2018 (UTC) I again had a look at the revision with the previously broken timeline. It now shows a different image file which looks fine. Seems like the broken timeline image had an expiry date. --Pipetricker (talk) 16:41, 24 July 2018 (UTC) Well, perfect, Pipetricker. So this was just a rendering glitch when the image was generated? Home Lander (talk) 18:45, 24 July 2018 (UTC) Yes, as there was nothing wrong with the timeline code. --Pipetricker (talk) 19:45, 24 July 2018 (UTC) ## Infoboxes on Chrome browser Is anyone else having issues with infoboxes showing really weird on Chrome? Checked on IE and looks fine, but on Chrome browser the infoboxes for me are showing as just text on the LHS of the page. Joseph2302 (talk) 18:12, 24 July 2018 (UTC) Looking normal to me in Chrome 67.0.3396.99, with Windows 10 Home 64. Home Lander (talk) 18:43, 24 July 2018 (UTC) Thanks, must be my laptop then. As I'm also using Chrome 67.0.3396.99, with Windows 10 Home 64. Joseph2302 (talk) 18:58, 24 July 2018 (UTC) It sometimes happens on Opera. The cause is that not all of the stylesheets have made it through from server to client. The usual fix is to reload the page, F5 is normally sufficient. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:57, 24 July 2018 (UTC) ## Timeless Newsletter • Issue 1 Newsletter • July 2018 Welcome to the first issue of the Timeless newsletter! This issue is being sent or forwarded to everyone who has at some point expressed an interest in the project, give or take, as well as a couple of other potentially relevant pages, so if you would like to continue (or start) receiving this newsletter directly, please sign up for further updates on the meta page. The news: The Timeless grant has been selected for funding, and the project is now underway! While I've had a somewhat slow start working on the project for health reasons, I'm pleased to announce that everything described in the proposal is now either happening, or on its way to happening. Current progress: • The project now has a hub on Meta to serve as a directory for the various related pages, workboards, and local discussions and help pages. It's probably incomplete, especially with regards to specific language projects that might have local pages for Timeless, so if you know of others, please add them! • Outreach: I've been talking to various people and groups directly about skinning, desktop/mobile interfaces, project management, specific component support, and other things, and have begun to compile a very shoddy list of skinning problems and random issues on mw.org based on this. Some of this may inform the direction of this project, or possibly this project will result in building a more proper list that can then be used for other things. We shall see. • Some development - task triage, code review, bug fixing, and various rabbit holes involving ...overflows. General plan for the future: • Triage the rest of the workboard. • Catch up with all the talkpages and other bug reports that have been left various other places that are not the project workboard • Do all the bug fixes/features/other things! • Some proposals aimed at Commons and Wikisource in particular (maybe, we'll see) Essentially, the grant as written shall be carried out. This was the plan, and remains the plan. Timelines remain fuzzy, but while there have been some initial delays, I don't particularly expect the timeline for project as a whole to change a whole lot. Also, for anyone at Wikimania right now: I am also at Wikimania. Come talk to me in person! Thank you all for your interest and support thus far! -— Isarra 12:23, 20 July 2018 (UTC) This issue has been sent regardless of signup status. To receive future issues please add yourself on the massmessage list. Note: "Timeless" is a new MediaWiki skin (see your Preferences) available on Wikimedia wikis. --Pipetricker (talk) 09:19, 25 July 2018 (UTC) ## Google use of Wikipedia data When I type "Liz Truss" into Google ([24]) I see a Google "infobox". In the box are some images, a title "Elizabeth Truss" and a subtitle "Lord Chancellor", her website address, and then data derived from Wikipedia. So far so good, except she hasn't been Lord Chancellor for a year (she is Chief Secretary to the Treasury). Does this data derive from Wikipedia? I can't see from the article Elizabeth Truss why/from where the incorrect data has been grabbed. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 16:49, 22 July 2018 (UTC) Only the description which explicitly links to Wikipedia is certainly derived from Wikipedia. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:53, 22 July 2018 (UTC) Maybe it's because her Wikidata item doesn't have this information yet, so Google has taken the most recent position listed (although there is an "end date" qualifier on the Lord Chancellor statement). Jc86035 (talk) 17:21, 22 July 2018 (UTC) See also Template:HD/GKG. Apart from a text paragraph ending with a linked "Wikipedia", Google does not reveal where they get the information. PrimeHunter (talk) 19:05, 22 July 2018 (UTC) @Shhhnotsoloud, Jc86035, and PrimeHunter: I've updated Truss's Wikidata item to add her being CST; it's now reflected in the "Office" section but not the sub-title. Possibly Google's box code thinks that LC, as the more senior job, is likely the "best" thing to list for people in such circumstances, even if it's not the most recent? 🤷🏽‍♂️ James F. (talk) 17:26, 25 July 2018 (UTC) ## Weird bug with community portal protection See here and here. In the first link, the automatic protection summary shows up as simply "[User] protect," rather than "[User] protected Wikipedia:Community portal (Edit=Allow only autoconfirmed users)...," etc. For the second link, when I try to edit the page, the text "No matching items in log" shows instead of the normal system message when editing semi-protected pages. I can confirm that the page is semi-protected, as I can't edit it when logged out. Anybody know what and why this is?--SkyGazer 512 Oh no, what did I do this time? 22:30, 25 July 2018 (UTC) The log entries on your first link are not from the protection log but from Wikipedia:Article Feedback Tool which left behind incomplete log entries when it was removed. The semi-protection of Wikipedia:Community portal was transferred from the former title Wikipedia:Community Portal in a 2008 move.[25] At the time protection log entries were not registered under the new name when a protected page was moved. Your second link tries to look up the protection log because the page is protected but it cannot find anything because the log entry is under the former name. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:27, 25 July 2018 (UTC) Limiting your first link to the protection log [26] demonstrates it was not that log. Contributions of the editors at the time show the article feedback tool, e.g. [27]. The log probably said something meaningful at the time and it somehow became "protect" when the article feedback tool was removed. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:49, 25 July 2018 (UTC) Let me explain the difference a little further. An edit produces a permanent pure text edit summary in the page history. Software at the time may be used to build the edit summary but it never changes later. The page log works differently. The text is built by software at the time the log is viewed, using data fields from the time of the action. This means software changes can cause the text of the page log to change. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:03, 26 July 2018 (UTC) ## New watchlist and notifications How technically difficult would it be to make the new watchlist "view newest changes" function also refresh notifications? I like the feature, and I don't want to turn it off, but it would be handy, especially if you're busy, and especially for inter-project notifications, if you didn't have to try to remember the last time you did a complete refresh on at least one of your watchlists. GMGtalk 21:52, 24 July 2018 (UTC) This sounds like a question for User:Trizek (WMF). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 01:31, 26 July 2018 (UTC) Refreshing notifications should ideally be independent from any process. This is documented, please say there that you want that feature. Trizek (WMF) (talk) 09:45, 26 July 2018 (UTC) ## Aspirated consonants in {{IPAc-en}} I'm not sure whether it's this only a technical thing, or also a merit one. I tried to put the IPA pronunciation to the article on IPA. I failed with using {{IPAc-en}} so I temporarily used {{IPA-en}}, which doesn't require any input separation. The English IPA pronunciation for IPA is aɪ pʰiː eɪ. The problem is that the aspirated consonant is not found in {{IPAc-en}} and gives an error. Here is the comparison: Markup Renders as {{IPA-en|aɪpʰiːeɪ}} English pronunciation: /aɪpʰiːeɪ/ {{IPAc-en|aɪ|pʰ|iː|eɪ}} Best, --Rezy (talk | contribs) 21:44, 26 July 2018 (UTC) See International Phonetic Alphabet § Types of transcription, the very article you edited, for why aspiration need not be indicated in a transcription of English enclosed in slashes. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation (especially MOS:RHOTIC) and Help:IPA/English (especially § Dialect variation) for details about what kind of transcription English pronunciation notations on Wikipedia (at least ones in {{IPAc-en}}) are in, and why that's the case. Nardog (talk) 22:07, 26 July 2018 (UTC) ## Pages not listed in CAT:R2 despite edit to add Template:Db-r2 As reported on User talk:Evad37/MoveToDraft.js/Archives/ 1#Db_vs._db, the following pages were edited (by script, using the API) to add {{Db-r2}}, but do not appear in CAT:R2 (or did not until edited or null edited). This basically seems like a job queue issue – except usually that problem is from the categorisation within template being changed, and pages that transclude it aren't updated (in a timely fashion, or at all) without a null edit. But these were just edits adding a template, which I thought should have just worked. Is this just some odd glitch, or is it to be expected? (i.e. should I be setting my script to do an additional null edit on a page after adding a {{Db-r2}} template?) - Evad37 [talk] 09:15, 27 July 2018 (UTC) ## viewuseroptions access Hi, I'm looking for some technical feedback about a proposal I'm looking to start : create an access permission and interface update to allow one user to view the non-private user preferences of another user. (e.g. not "watchlist token", any watchlist data, "email" - and maybe mutelist) and perhaps restricting to admins by default. Primary use would be in assisting editors that are having various issues, just look through this pages archive for back and forth "what skin to you use", "what gadgets do you have on", "what beta features do you have on", etc, etc... questions that are always going on. Any thoughts from the tech side? — xaosflux Talk 15:50, 21 July 2018 (UTC) I would expect the WMF to veto this idea. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 16:02, 21 July 2018 (UTC) On "privacy" factors or for some other reason? What do you anticipate the concern being? — xaosflux Talk 16:24, 21 July 2018 (UTC) Yeah, that. I have no actual evidence for this, but that was just my first reaction. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 16:29, 21 July 2018 (UTC) I'm not sure how this would have privacy implications. Anyone can view someone's common.js, for example; here's mine. Home Lander (talk) 21:55, 21 July 2018 (UTC) Users who edit their js and css files probably know the files are public but they expect most of their settings at Special:Preferences to be private, e.g. time zone and language which can give hints of who they are or at least where they are. They may for example not want their government to know this in countries with censorship. And any change of a new setting would reveal you were recently logged in. The suggested feature would be useful but for privacy reasons I think it would have to be opt-in for each user and maybe require entering your password if you enable it so it's not easily done by accident or by somebody getting access to a logged in session. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:24, 21 July 2018 (UTC) Hmm maybe an "export preferences" function that they could use when wanted? — xaosflux Talk 14:23, 22 July 2018 (UTC) @Xaosflux: All of a user's options are stored in mw.user.options, which is accessible via their browser console. One could presumably write a tidy little gadget to allow for easy copying of the preferences, removing the ones with potential privacy concerns, but a quick and easy way would be to just provide a link to the API sandbox and ask them for certain preferences. ~ Amory (utc) 17:42, 22 July 2018 (UTC) Thanks for the link this is getting somewhere more useful, is there any easy way to filter out watchlisttoken from that query using that form - looking at making this as easy as possible for non-technical editors? — xaosflux Talk 18:43, 22 July 2018 (UTC) No, I don't believe so, or at least none that I know of short of asking them not to copy the penultimate line. You'd need to at least load some stuff in the console. ~ Amory (utc) 19:04, 22 July 2018 (UTC) I created User:BethNaught/exportUserOptions.js. It adds a special page Special:ExportUserOptions (case tolerant) where you can export your preferences. The default is "restricted" where only specified properties are allowed—as I understand it, extensions or user scripts can create arbitrary prefs, which may contain private data. My thinking was to make something like this a default gadget? Won't be offended if you don't use this, it was fun to make. BethNaught (talk) 20:50, 22 July 2018 (UTC) looks like a good start other than watchlisttoken does anyone see any other "secret" information in here (e.g. it should never be exported - BethNaught, can you have this eclude only certain fields?)? Some "restricted" other info might be timezone, language setting? — xaosflux Talk 21:01, 22 July 2018 (UTC) Nice work BethNaught! I agree that a blacklist for the "restricted" items would be easier than a whitelist. In addition to watchlisttoken and the timezone and language settings, I'll add pagetriage-lastuse. I believe that's a timestamp showing the last time you loaded Special:NewPagesFeed, which could theoretically be undesirable. Only other thing might be rcfilters-saved-queries and rcfilters-wl-saved-queries — I don't think it's likely since the available options are bland enough, but I suppose it's possible someone might have named a filter with something they wouldn't want exposed. ~ Amory (utc) 01:07, 23 July 2018 (UTC) I'd say these should be in 3 categories: "normal", "restricted", "secret" - unless you want one for personal use only, just blacklist anything secret - and really only the watchlisttoken is looking for be secret so far, lang, tz, etc could be useful for helping people, many times their "messages are wrong" is because they picked a missing or broken language (I'm looking at you en-au!). — xaosflux Talk 01:26, 23 July 2018 (UTC) I switched it to a blacklist system to demonstrate. Whether to use a whitelist or a blacklist (or both, under different options) is a design decision I think would need wider input; I'm still wary of exposing potentially arbitrary userjs- and extension-generated prefs in an allegedly safe mode. BethNaught (talk) 10:58, 23 July 2018 (UTC) I'd be wary too, a whitelist is the safer default option. BTW, this could also be done as a tool on Toolforge using OAuth to request API action=query&meta=userinfo&uiprop=options (sandbox) rather than a gadget that fakes up a special page. Anomie 11:41, 23 July 2018 (UTC) Wildcarded whitelist perhaps - would hate to have to have it changed every time a gadget is added/removed/renamed for example. — xaosflux Talk 11:46, 23 July 2018 (UTC) Not just gadgets, but other options appear and disappear, often before Tech News has informed us of the change. If blacklist, we need to check the list for every added option. For a whitelist, we need only check if it is felt that the new option setting should be visible to others. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:55, 23 July 2018 (UTC) Simple wildcards shouldn't be hard; for example, it seems to me that "gadget-*" i.e. which gadgets one has enabled should be safe? Although what if someone has a (hypothetical) accessibility gadget enabled, and so unintentionally discloses their disability? BethNaught (talk) 10:44, 24 July 2018 (UTC) Simply enabling a gadget doesn't mean you have a disability - and the reason you could be having problem X is that you inadvertently enabled gadget Y (the original problem I was looking to solve) - maybe a disclaimer on the top of the output page - since this only displays settings to the user and they have to choose to copy it out. A list of enabled gadgets is certainly something that is useful for troubleshooting though. — xaosflux Talk 11:32, 24 July 2018 (UTC) Point taken, and I certainly appreciate how having a list of all enabled gadgets would be useful. BethNaught (talk) 12:01, 24 July 2018 (UTC) While it does not, it probably correlates fairly well. The degree of risk is mitigated if the information will have to be manually exported each time by the user and copied to the recipient, which I think is what is being proposed? isaacl (talk) 17:23, 24 July 2018 (UTC) @Isaacl: currently yes, I'd love there to be a better "technical problem generation tool" like a button to push on a page that will screen shot it, let you annotate it, gather all your logs, etc - but that would be a long way off! 17:35, 24 July 2018 (UTC) I agree with a white list being a safer option. I don't really like the idea of general wildcards, as inadvertent matching is all too easy. Even prefix matching could be a problem, such as cases where "foo-" and "foo-variant-" are both in use. isaacl (talk) 17:30, 24 July 2018 (UTC) ────────────────────── If we go for a whitelist we would need to build one. mw:Manual:wgDefaultUserOptions lists preferences but is out-of-date and doesn't account for some extensions. A shell user could use mw:Manual:userOptions.php to get an up-to-date list of preferences? Also we would need to decide whether to wildcard "gadget-*": knowing which gadgets someone uses is a big point of this. BethNaught (talk) 20:54, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Keeping this thread active - I asked for input from meta: as well. — xaosflux Talk 20:28, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

## Has something gone off with Visual Editor?

I opened Wikipedia on Internet Explorer and Chrome (didn't bother logging out to check Firefox), and I couldn't find an option to use Visual Editor. I'm not logged in on IE or Chrome, and I have not set any preferences on those browsers to disable VE (unlike when logged in on Firefox).

Since the only time I "use" Visual Editor is to try to troubleshoot an issue for someone who actually does use it, I'm not really sure what's going on. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:13, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

The Teahouse reports that it's resolved now.
Having looked it over, I think that the "bug" may have been that {{div col}} templates were present, and have since been removed. That produces a really ugly experience. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:49, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

## Help me fix this broken markup, please.

Can anybody spot what's wrong at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2018 July 20? There's two discussions that day. I closed the second one earlier today, and everything looked fine. I just closed the first one, and something got confused and turned === into {{subst:drt|1, which makes the second one not visible. I tried to fix that manually, but no joy. There's obviously something broken in the markup somewhere, but I can't spot it. -- RoySmith (talk) 00:17, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

PS, I close these things with User:Lifebaka/closedrv.js -- RoySmith (talk) 00:20, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
I fixed the markup. I couldn't tell you why it needed fixing though. --Izno (talk) 00:47, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
You edited the whole date section instead of the section for the DRV. See User:Lifebaka/closedrv. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:50, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks. Insert random cynical comment about trying to parse HTML using regexes :-) -- RoySmith (talk) 01:26, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

## Template:Infobox software tells incorrectly that the screenshot file is considered for deletion

Resolved

In my last edits I added File:Inkscape.png file to {{Infobox software}} in the article Inkscape. After it the infobox displays the following message: The file above's purpose is being discussed and/or is being considered for deletion. Consult image description page for details.

The given file not is being discussed and/or is being considered for deletion, so the template is giving false positives. The file was nominated for deletion on Commons on 23 April 2017 but was kept and there's no such process right now.

I'm not sure what causes this behavior and is this specific only for {{Infobox software}} or all the infobox templates.

--Rezy (talk | contribs) 12:38, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Fixed with this edit - the message had been added to the caption. -- John of Reading (talk) 13:41, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
Looks like the message was added by an IP editor here. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE
) 13:43, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
Many thanks guys for your help. Seems the caption wasn't present without the screenshot. --Rezy (talk | contribs) 08:19, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

## "Action throttled"

I keep getting an "action throttled" error, since I often do a lot of quick WP:GNOMEy copyedits. Is there some way to stop this? It's intensely annoying, and sometimes costs me work (hitting the "back" button does not always work right – sometimes the cached edit is lost). Surely there's something akin to autoconfirmed that exempts people from this anti-vandal measure. If not there needs to be one. How are people supposed to effectively use AWB/JWB with this over-broad filter running? 05:12, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

I remember seeing a recent change that I think limited normal users to 100 edits per minute (not sure where, now). Are you trying to edit that fast? Chris857 (talk) 05:33, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
It's at #Tech News: 2018-30 above (90 edits per minute). Johnuniq (talk) 05:52, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
WP:Extendedconfirmed users may need higher limits. Ruslik_Zero 08:53, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
The OP is annoyed but the ability to make more than 90 edits per minute seems more than sensible to me. It is conceivable that an approved bot with a well-defined and tested procedure could usefully edit that fast but a human is supposed to check what they are doing and making 1.5 edits per second for a sustained period makes that unlikely. Johnuniq (talk) 10:48, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
So many changes per minute has an impact on the entire encyclopedia. Even bots don't have to modify pages so quickly and should all respect the waiting time returned by Mediawiki. We usually talk about a 10 seconds wait. One edit every 0.66 seconds is monstrous. Lofhi (talk) 12:58, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
90 edits per minute is easy to hit using certain tools such as the above-mentioned AWB/JWB, or with other tools that don't require permissions such as Cat-a-lot or Unlink. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE
) 14:10, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
you don't appear to be hitting any of our custom abuse filters, do you have the timestamp of the most recent time this happened? In general, if you have a lot of edits that need to be made that don't require manual review a bot task is a good idea. — xaosflux Talk 11:46, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
It was within about a minute of my OP here. Interestingly, I wasn't doing anywhere near 90 edits per minute, more like 10–20 at most. And this is not the first time it happened. It even happened once, a few weeks back before the 90/min. change. About the only way (without AWB) I'm even capable of more than 20 or so per minute would be to have more than that many tabs already opened, already with content added and edit summaries written, and then do "Publish changes" on them one after another. The only times I ever do this are a) dropping of RfC notices to project talk pages on something of unusually broad scope (maybe 1–2 times per year), and (fairly regularly) updating double-redirects to the correct new target after a page move, but I decreasingly do that either since there's a bot that usually fixes them faster than I can. This trottle notice has come up just in the course of regular though fairly quick editing, probably in the dozen-per-minute range, like fixing the same typo or code error in a series of pages. 14:41, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Hmm, I don't see you anywhere near the throttle limit - seems like a bug, suggest you open a phabricator ticket to explore further. — xaosflux Talk 15:41, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

## Continuing a comment after a nested list

How can I include a nested list in a comment, and then continue at the same level of indentation without ending the list element? For example, I can do:

Markup Renders as
* x
** y
: z
• x
• y
z

But the HTML markup is wrong, since I want the "z" to be part of the same list item as "x" and "y". Enterprisey (talk!) 03:22, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Note that you can use plain HTML (<ul><li>a<ul><li>b</li></ul>c</li></ul>), but I'm looking for a solution with MediaWiki markup. Enterprisey (talk!) 03:30, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
I suspect this is a limitation on simple list markup. Any line break is expected to result in a new list item or a new list, no easy continuations. As best I can tell from Help:List#Continuing a list item after a sub-item, the closest you can come with the simple list markup is:
Markup Renders as
<nowiki />
* First main list item
** First sublist item
** Second sublist item
*: continuation of first main list item
* Second main list item

• First main list item
• First sublist item
• Second sublist item
continuation of first main list item
• Second main list item

But this indents the continuation more than you might like. They suggest that, for cases like this, the template {{unordered list}} be used, but that may defeat your purpose in wanting to use simple markup.

Markup Renders as
{{unordered list|First main list item
{{unordered list|First sublist item|
Second sublist item}} continuation of first main list item|
Second main list item}}

• First main list item
• First sublist item
• Second sublist item
continuation of first main list item
• Second main list item

In addition, it looks like more extraneous markup (div tags) gets added in this latter version, another possibly unwanted result. But it does look the way you wanted and it does generate correct HTML in terms of not starting a new list. — jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 07:05, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

wrt. the extra div, please note: Module_talk:List#Redundant_div?. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 15:22, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Enterprisey, have you considered this approach?

Markup Renders as
* x
** y{{pb}}z
• x
• y
z

Or is your goal to get "z" on the same level as "x"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:12, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, my goal is for "z" to be on the same level as "x". Enterprisey (talk!) 19:58, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

## Collapse inside an indented table

On Jimbo's talk page there is an examples where a collaspe block inside a table.

::<table><tr><td>{{sources-talk}}</table>


This uses {{sources-talk}} which basically calls {{collapse}}. The problem is text after the block becomes indented. A minimal falling example is

Foo
::<table><tr><td>{{collapse|title=dummy title|dummy text}}</td></tr></table>
Bar


Giving

Foo

dummy title
dummy text

Bar

--Salix alba (talk): 08:43, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Indentation can be fixed by manually adding </dl>. --Salix alba (talk): 09:00, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Salix alba, if you would move this section for me, I believe this is a result of Remex (see the first thread on this page). I'm not sure what the best solution is for this. --Izno (talk) 16:33, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
@Salix alba and Izno: I don't think so. The old and the new parser behave the same. This seems to be known issue: phab:T8776TheDJ (talkcontribs) 12:19, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
T8776: indented embedded table leaves an unclosed DL, causing unwanted indentation. --Pipetricker (talk) 08:28, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

## Bizarre parser results

When you transclude Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/AfC reject notability/sandbox0 (permalink) and write some text after it on the same line, the text appears in a <pre> block for some reason. (It doesn't work if the text is on the next line.) I went through the code and can't see why it would be doing that. Any thoughts? Enterprisey (talk!) 03:39, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

This change seems to fix it (thanks, Jmcgnh!) but we still don't have any idea why this would happen. Enterprisey (talk!) 04:42, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
You failed to show or link an example with a pre box. I guess your added text starts with a space like:

{{Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/AfC reject notability/sandbox}} Some text

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/AfC reject notability/sandbox currently ends with a newline when it's transcluded. A line starting with a space causes pre formatting:
Some text

Most templates should avoid having a transcluded newline at the end. A common error is to place a noinclude tag on a new line instead of the end of the last transcluded line. PrimeHunter (talk) 09:56, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

## Edit filter for empty edit requests

Is it technically feasible to have an edit filter prevent the creation of empty edit requests (i.e. filtering new section edits like this one, with only content being section header, {{edit semi-protected}} or similar, signature and assorted whitespace)? There has been about one every other day at File talk:Snapchat logo.svg and I'm not sure why they keep being posted. The edits are generated using {{Submit an edit request/preload}}. Jc86035 (talk) 10:21, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Requests belong at Wikipedia:Edit filter/Requested. It's just readers trying what links do. If you cannot edit a page then the "Edit" tab says "View source" instead and has a button to submit an edit request. Saving an empty request is only three clicks away from viewing a protected page: "View source", "Submit an edit request", "Publish changes". File:Snapchat logo.svg had 44,495 page views in the past 30 days, maybe from users who click the icon at Snapchat or a Google search because they are trying to use Snapchat. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:57, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
I've made a request. Jc86035 (talk) 11:13, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
I have previously been successful at RFPP for this sort of thing. A general edit filter does seem quite reasonable to stop/warn on the empty ones. --Izno (talk) 13:03, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Could someone import c:Template:Copyright notes for use on enwiki? (to be used in combination with {{PD-USonly}}) I may be able to do it myself, but I'll probably just make a mess. Alexis Jazz (talk) 22:13, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

## Z number templates

{{Z number doc}} states:

When templates are substituted there is no longer any direct connection with the template page the text was called from other than, often, a commented out note placed by the template indicating its origin, in the form: <!-- Template:Name -->.

Such commented out text is not searchable. For this reason it is impossible in most cases to track in any consistent and easy way the use of a template that is normally substituted.

This isn't true, since searching for user talk: insource:"<!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 -->" returns 4,310,040 results. Is there any other reason the Z templates are needed (other than their current usage on a few million pages)? Jc86035 (talk) 13:02, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

CirrusSearch, which I think brought insource, didn't exist when the templates were first-implemented. --Izno (talk) 21:54, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
TfD them! {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 23:56, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

## CSS / HTML / TemplateStyles experts at Help talk:Citation Style 1#CSS for citation templates please?

We need help figuring out a couple of details here. Any help would be appreciated. In particular, we're trying to a apply a class to them that lets access locks be treated as external links icons, which can be displayed/hidden independently of other external link icons. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:24, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

## Is it possible to use One Click Archiver on Commons?

Is it possible to use Tech 13's archiver script for a user TP on Commons without making any changes to the script? Atsme📞📧 20:25, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Last I checked it requires the presence of the hidden MiszaBot archiving template. I am fairly sure User:Σ/Testing facility/Archiver can be used, however, which works mostly the same. --Izno (talk) 20:50, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
I think it has something to do with the command used to find the script since it's located on en.WP and not on commons. Atsme📞📧 21:03, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
FIXED Atsme📞📧 14:44, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
Where? How? --Pipetricker (talk) 10:01, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Pipetricker, see this discussion. Atsme📞📧 13:37, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

## Tech News: 2018-31

14:05, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

We'd like to invite you to the weekly Technical Advice IRC meeting. The Technical Advice IRC Meeting (TAIM) is a weekly support event for volunteer developers. Every Wednesday, two full-time developers are available to help you with all your questions about Mediawiki, gadgets, tools and more! This can be anything from "how to get started" and "who would be the best contact for X" to specific questions on your project.

The Technical Advice IRC meeting is every Wednesday 3-4 pm UTC as well as on every first Wednesday of the month 11-12 pm UTC.

Cheers, -- Michael Schönitzer (WMDE) (talk) 14:27, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

I have started a discussion about the new interface administrator user group at WP:VPM#RFC: Interface administrators and transition. Please take a moment to review and/or comment. --Izno (talk) 14:54, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

## Watchlist period resets to 1 hour in "unimproved" watchlist

When I bring up my watchlist, it shows articles changed in the past 3 days by default. But the "Period of time to display" drop-down is populated with "1 hour" by default, so that if I click the "Show" button on my watchlist page to refresh it, I only get 1 hour's worth of changes unless I specifically change the drop down. It always resets to 1 hour, even though my preferences are set to 3 days. (IE 11 (sorry -- required by work!), MonoBook skin) WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 15:13, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

WikiDan61, instead of clicking 'Show', try clicking the 'Watchlist' link at the top of the page to refresh it. That works with Firefox/MonoBook. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 12:36, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes it does, but it's still annoying that, when my preference is to have a 3 day watchlist, the watchlist then populates with 1 hour in the dropdown. This appears to be a new feature rather than a bug, but I can't say that I'm a fan. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:51, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
WikiDan61, if you see "Period of time to display" then I guess you have selected "Hide the improved version of the Watchlist" at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist. For me it remembers some settings at "Days to show in watchlist", e.g. 2.9 or 3.1 days but not 3 days which changes to 1 hour like you say. It appears to mainly have problems remembering options which are included in the drop-down box on the watchlist itself. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:33, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Well, I noticed the problem before the "Improved" watchlist was rolled out, but yes, I have chosen to hide the improvements, because I liked my old tried-and-true Watchlist and found the improved version confusing. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:03, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
User:WikiDan61, would you mind checking your Special:GlobalPreferences to see if they're the same as your local Special:Preferences? I think this is a bug in GlobalPrefs (well, a mismatch between what new GlobalPrefs feature offers, and what the suddenly-slightly-outdated watchlist is trying to do). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:17, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
My Special:GlobalPreferences show the proper 3 day watchlist, and none of the options are checked to be made global. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 18:39, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm having the same problem. My preferences are set to 1 day, hide the new list. But it keeps going back to an hour. As it did when I tried the new watchlist. User:Whatamidoing is this being worked on? Doug Weller talk 18:47, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
- didn't copy your whole username. Doug Weller talk 11:13, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
Reported in Phabricator: T199566: Period of time resets to 1 hour in the watchlist.
(pings: @WikiDan61, Keith D, Doug Weller.) --Pipetricker (talk) 09:09, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Notice the workaround of setting "Days to show in watchlist" on the Watchlist tab in your Preferences to a value that works, such as 5 or a fraction close to the value you want, such as 3.1 (three point one) as PrimeHunter suggested. --Pipetricker (talk) 15:13, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Should be Fixed with the new MediaWiki version on Thursday. --Pipetricker (talk) 14:12, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

### Old Watchlist Problem

There appears to be a problem with the old watchlist that resets the "Period of time to display: " back to 1 hour when the page loads rather than leaving it at what it was previously or the value selected in the preferences. Keith D (talk) 21:20, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

@Keith D: I moved your post to an existing section. It works for me to change the value in preferences to a non-integer or some other integers. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:37, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
The field is validated but using a decimal it does not appear to work. (Incidentally the ping did not work either) Keith D (talk) 23:40, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
It resets to 1 hour for me too. I have it set at 3 days/250 changes in prefs. When I navigate to my watchlist I get it according to prefs (tho' the box shews 1 hour), but if I then apply filters (eg hide categorisation) then unless I manually change the setting in the box I get only 1 hour's worth of changes, which is pretty much useless. DuncanHill (talk) 17:02, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
DuncanHill, as mentioned at the end of the superordinate section right above this, this problem will hopefully be Fixed on Thursday. Until then, you can try setting "Days to show in watchlist" on the Watchlist tab in your Preferences to 3.1 (three point one). --Pipetricker (talk) 17:55, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

## Undo function no longer working in edit mode

Seems a change went into effect within the last few days where now text in the edit window is color-coded to show wikilinks and markup. Unfortunately the undo function (via ctrl+Z or right clicking) no longer seems to be working. I'm using Google Chrome. Is this a known issue? Jweiss11 (talk) 01:51, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: I'm assuming you are referring to your browsers "undo" feature not the Wikipedia Undo command correct? — xaosflux Talk 01:56, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I'm referring to the brower's "undo" feature. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:57, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
@Jweiss11: Check your gadgets and see if you have Syntax highlighter enabled, if so try disabling and let me know if it fixes your issue. — xaosflux Talk 01:59, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Also are you using the visual editor? If so, do you have the issue when using the text editor? — xaosflux Talk 02:01, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm not using visual editor and I do not have syntax highlighter checked off in my gadgets, yet it appears to be enabled anyway. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:03, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
@Jweiss11: does your problem present in safemode? — xaosflux Talk 02:06, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Also, do you have any beta features enabled? — xaosflux Talk 02:07, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
I don't have any beta features enabled. The problem does indeed present in safemode. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:10, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
@Jweiss11: I can't make it fail, try to open an incognito browsing window and don't even log on, just try to edit and see it clears up? — xaosflux Talk 02:41, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Logging out and using the incognito browsing window both disabled the highlighted syntax and restored the undo function.  But when I log back in, the problem is back. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:50, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
@Jweiss11: try this: go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures, ensure you do not have Automatically enable all new beta features enabled. Then enable the New wikitext mode feature, save, turn it back off, save and try again. — xaosflux Talk 03:01, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Just did all of that. Didn't work. :( Jweiss11 (talk) 03:04, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
You can try Special:Preferences/reset - but it will put you in all defaults, so you may want to take note of what you have first. — xaosflux Talk 03:12, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Are we sure this is problem local to me? Are you able to undo text edits with syntax highlighter turn on? Jweiss11 (talk) 05:31, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
There are several syntax highlighter features. Check the first bullet at WP:HILITE about a button to the left of "Advanced" in some toolbars. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:02, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Which skin are you using? Jc86035 (talk) 11:23, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Do you have the problem if you use a different browser? I haven't been able to get it to fail as you describe on fifefox or chrome, with or without highlighter / new wikitext mode. — xaosflux Talk 12:49, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: I just tried FireFox and I have the same problem there. The "undo" function in the browser is grayed-out in the edit box with the highlighter on. And I don't seem to be able to turn the syntax highlighter off in Firefox either. Are you able to get the undo function to work with the syntax highlighter on? Jweiss11 (talk) 00:14, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
@Jweiss11: yes, which skin are you using? — xaosflux Talk 00:57, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm using the "Vector" skin. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:42, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
@Jweiss11: I deactivated your User:Jweiss11/vector.css (you can revert by editing at anytime). See if it changed anything. — xaosflux Talk 01:45, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
That doesn't seem to have changed anything. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:49, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Anyone have any ideas here? This new syntax highlighter seems to have some bugs. Check out what happened to the spacing on this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1927_Texas_A%26M_Aggies_football_team&diff=prev&oldid=851561727. All I did was fix the spelling of September there, but something happened with the spacing causing the table field to blow up. I fixed it in a subsequent edit by retyping the spacing. This has happened a number of times in the last few days since the syntax highlighter went live for me. Nothing like this has ever happened before. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:07, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

My first thought is that the next time non-technical person tells me that "users don't need to know the name of their editing environment; it's all just 'the way you edit Wikipedia'", I might scream.
Jweiss11, I'm sorry you're having to go through this huge de-bugging thing, but here's the next step: Please click https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Xaosflux/Sandbox2016037a&action=submit&safemode=1 and tell me if that looks like the editing system that's causing this problem. If so, and if all of the following are true, then you're using the mw:2010 wikitext editor, aka WikiEditor (not to be confused with WP:WikEd):
1. "Show edit toolbar (requires JavaScript)" is turned ON in your editing preferences.
2. "Enable enhanced editing toolbar" is turned ON in your editing preferences.
3. "wikEd: a full-featured integrated text editor for Firefox, Safari, and Google Chrome" is turned OFF in your gadget preferences. (No need to check this; &safemode=1 would have disabled it.)
If that's not your editing environment, then please see mw:Editor and see if you can figure out which screenshot looks most like yours. (Note for anyone who's interested: &action=submit always calls one of the older wikitext editors, so it's the fastest way to bypass Extension:VisualEditor.)
Second, do you want to have the syntax highlighting turned on? Because if you don't, then you can turn it off, and that will stop the symptom for you, although it won't fix the actual bug. (Directions in the 2010 wikitext editor: open any page and look in the blue toolbar for a "highlighter marker" button. It is in between the black-and-white book and the word "Advanced". Click that button until the colors go away. Close the window, and open a new page to make sure that the change 'stuck' properly.)
I haven't been able to reproduce this behavior myself, but based on your replies so far, here's a description of your system:
• Web browser: Google Chrome (version number ???), but it happens in Firefox, too.
• Operating system: ???
• Skin: Vector
• Syntax highlighter: CodeMirror (beause it's the only one that isn't disabled by &safemode=1)
• Site: Desktop (not Mobile Web)
• Editing environment: Definitely one of the older wikitext editors; probably the 2010 wikitext editor
Is there anything else that you think might be useful for a bug report? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:28, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
You may be interested in the ad-hoc work we have started doing based on Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#viewuseroptions_access below. — xaosflux Talk 17:39, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
Ideally, a "I have a tech problem on this page" could gather all that setting info, take a screenshot, ask them to draw on it with a highlighter and post the whole thing to a ticket! :D — xaosflux Talk 17:41, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
thanks for chiming in. I'm not sure I follow all of your questions, but I will try to answer them. When I go to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Xaosflux/Sandbox2016037a&action=submit&safemode=1, the undo button is disabled. "Show edit toolbar (requires JavaScript)" and "Enable enhanced editing toolbar" are indeed turned on in my preferences and "wikEd: a full-featured integrated text editor for Firefox, Safari, and Google Chrome" is indeed turned off in my gadget preferences. My Google Chrome version is Version 67.0.3396.99 (Official Build) (64-bit). My operating system is Windows 10 Home. This is indeed all on desktop. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:19, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
Okay, I just followed your instructions about the "highlighter marker" and was able to turn off the syntax highlighting. And now the undo function is restored! I actually like the syntax highlighting. I find it useful, but it's not worth the loss of the undo function because I often accidentally delete big blocks of text and the undo function remedies that in an instant without losing any of the previous editing. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:24, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
Perfect! I filed phab:T200280 to describe this problem. I also figured out that the problem is in Chrome and Firefox, but not Safari (which is why I couldn't reproduce it on my first quick attempt). Thanks for sticking with this and providing such clear information. I really appreciate it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:05, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Jweiss11 Can you try using the keyboard shortcut (Ctrl+Z or Cmd+Z on Mac) instead of the menu item? That should work with syntax highlighting. I'm not sure why the browser menu item is not working. It seems like a weird bug. -- NKohli (WMF) (talk) 19:48, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
NKohli (WMF) Ctrl+Z does indeed work. I thought I had tried that before and had it not work. But it does work now. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:50, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

## Template:Chart appearance problem

When I used Template:Chart, some of the functions of it go seriously wrong.

There are some different codes dedicated to show different styles of lines in a family tree, but in mobile view, the effect of

• "(" and "'" are the same, so does that of
• "C" and "J"
• "G" and "Z"
• "c" and "ic" and etc.

Template:Family tree is having a same problem (though being deprecated), and I can't do anything, because it's protected and it's like a problem from the source, not like if I can fix it by editing some codes of the template. Seeing that this error has effected all family tree exist in all wikis, how is this bug supposed to be fixed? - George6VI (talk) 19:47, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Fixed, the template made assumptions about tables, that were not guaranteed in the mobile skin. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 21:49, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

## Two almost identical math lines using different font sizes?

On lines 5-6 of the article join (topology) there are two displayed math formulas which contain almost the same text, yet the first one is significantly shorter than the second. It appears to me as if the first one uses a slightly smaller font. Here are the two lines:

${\displaystyle (a,b_{1},0)\sim (a,b_{2},0)\quad {\mbox{for all }}a\in A{\mbox{ and }}b_{1},b_{2}\in B,}$
${\displaystyle (a_{1},b,1)\sim (a_{2},b,1)\quad {\mbox{for all }}a_{1},a_{2}\in A{\mbox{ and }}b\in B.}$

In the visual editor, the two lines are the same size and everything looks perfect. Does anyone have an idea what could be going on here? AxelBoldt (talk) 12:24, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

in most views these are being rendered and served as image files (likely .svg) - and the display of these may differ among browsers and depending on the page layout at time they are displayed. Looks to be the known issue phab:T74553, as the default viewing of math items is MathML with SVG or PNG fallback mode. — xaosflux Talk 13:58, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: Thanks, it does indeed appear to be a browser issue: if I download and view the two served SVG's separately, they are the same size. In the article, Chromium/Linux renders them in the same size, Chrome/Windows and Firefox/Linux don't. In the meantime I found a workaround: insert an empty line between the two formulas. AxelBoldt (talk) 14:23, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
note, in many cases your "empty line" trick will suffer from the same issue - it will help on some browsers but not others. This is also going to be driven somewhat by the math setting in a user's preferences Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering (though normal readers should be seeing the default above). — xaosflux Talk 14:33, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: I believe this particular issue is due to a particular wikitext hack: indentation of several lines with ':' which the formulas above use is rendered with an HTML <dl> definition list followed by <dd> entries without accompanying <dt>'s. From an HTML perspective, that usage doesn't make sense, and I can't blame browsers if they show strange behavior for such a list. By inserting an empty line, each formula gets its own <dl><dd>, so the behavior is still strange, but strange in the same way for both formulas. AxelBoldt (talk) 15:06, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
I think this might be a cache problem. The maths render engine stores equations its rendered before and there have been sight changes in the renderer. So one is done using an old render. I think there are ways to force the equations to be re-rendered. Possibly doing a null-edit or perhaps changing the expressions by adding \, at the end. --Salix alba (talk): 23:14, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

## Query on behalf of NASA

Because of my involvement with User:Bibcode Bot, I have received an email asking me the following

Hi <name>,

I have your contact from a prior email exchange regarding running the Bibcode Bot for Wikipedia. I have a Wikipedia-related question that I hope you can help answer: I periodically check wikipedia to find out how many links it has to ADS pages via the "External Links" search page:

Even though the page does not say how many results come from the URL search, I would then modify the URL to paginate till the end of the li