Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 65

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Isolating editors edits in an article

Okay, lets say I have the article: SuperFerry 9. Edit history here:

Is there anyway to isolate the edit history of one editor on that specific article?

For example, on SuperFerry 9, this page:

Shows that: User:Shinerunner has contributed 19 contributions to the page. Can I see those 19 contributions on one wikipedia page?

Thanks in advance. Ikip (talk) 02:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Bugzilla:10788. The API can already do this, for example see: titles=SuperFerry_9 + rvuser=Shinerunner. You could also add rvdiffto=prev which would give you the table-wrapped diff of each edit (escaped of course, and only where cached). These api features would make such a tool easy as a bot or userscript. --Splarka (rant) 07:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Splarka, I would give you another barnstar, but a second in three days would be presumptuous. :) THANK YOU! Ikip (talk) 07:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Oh crap, it is XML. That works, but is there any more easy way to see these diffs? Ikip (talk) 07:30, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
There are several formats you can get the html table wrapped in (but note it is escaped in most of them), see the end of the api help. But no, you can't get the diffs in anything but the html tables that mediawiki uses. --Splarka (rant) 11:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

In case you're interested, this sounded pretty handy, so I put together a small script that allows you to filter the standard page history view by user. It adds a little box to the history page where you can enter a username, and it will display up to the last 500 edits that user made to the page. For monobook and Firefox/Chrome - dunno about the others, definitely not IE: importScript('User:Ale_jrb/Scripts/userhist.js'); // [[User:Ale_jrb/Scripts]] Ale_Jrbtalk 13:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

That is handy. Already used it to pick out and revert some repeated vandalism mangled by partial reverts. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 19:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
It turns out it works fine in vector also. Yay. Ale_Jrbtalk 20:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
thanks for your time once again splarka. would I put this gadget in monobook Ale jrb? Ikip (talk) 15:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Yeah - you copy the bolded text exactly onto a new line in User:Ikip/monobook.js (assuming you're using the monobook skin; use User:Ikip/vector.js if you're using vector) then bypass your browser cache - there are instructions on the JavaScript page for doing that. Ale_Jrbtalk 21:04, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

There's also "Per-page contributions – finds all the edits by a user to a single page", which I came across today at Wikipedia:Tools. Presumably it uses the API mentioned above. –Whitehorse1 19:34, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Better diff engine needed

Wikipedia's diff engine sucks; for instance, trivial changes cause the diff engine to give up and reproduce the older and newer versions verbatim. WikEd's diff engine fails in the other direction; for instance, look at this, and see how it reports a completely new section [Delimiting (grouping of digits)] as if it were a mish-mash of random words from two sections. Surely, somewhere in the world, someone has written a better diff engine. Can anyone point me in the right direction? - Dank (push to talk) 17:32, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Diffs are tricky. Every diff engine I have seen has some fault or another. If you can find a better one that is open source I am sure it will be given consideration. Chillum 17:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
The better diff algorithms have upper bounds of O(n4) which allow denial of service attacks since usable constants are harder to place. Also you may want to have a look at mw:Visual Diff. — Dispenser 04:56, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks kindly! - Dank (push to talk) 12:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Speedy deletion vandalism

I just came across a vandal adding a speedy deletion template[1], and I'm wondering if there is any technical way to prevent that. It probably doesn't occur often enough to justify any nontrivial programming effort, but I thought it can't hurt to ask. — Sebastian 03:08, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

How exactly do think should the software guess that it's a vandal? Any anonymous editor adding a speedy deletion template? Svick (talk) 09:11, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


Is there anyway currently in wikipedia to create popups, similar to Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups. Thank you. Ikip (talk) 05:55, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

What do you need that for? I don't think it would be a good idea to use popups in articles, if that's what you want to do. Svick (talk) 09:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
LOL you are the first person to ever ask why I want to do something on tech. Usually editors simply happily help me oblivious to the fact that they are complicit in my evil plans to take over the world. ;-)
Articles: absolutely not. this would apply only to subpages of a wikiproject.
I assume it is not enabled, because I have never seen it outside of Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups Ikip (talk) 10:43, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
What exactly are you intending to pop-up? :S It's not a question of it being 'enabled' - popups are a user JavaScript that makes a pop-up appear when you hover over any wiki link. If you want them, add it to your monobook or enable the gadget. Ale_Jrbtalk 10:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Scraped Google news result for current AFDs, but these pop ups would be on a subpages of a wikiproject, as mentioned above.
How would i go about making my own pop ups? is there documentation? I am familar with what monobook.css. thanks for your time gentlemen. Ikip (talk) 11:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Yikes :P. Firstly, you can't really use the existing pop-ups as a basis here, as what you're trying to do is completely different. Secondly, you'll have to create (or get created on your behalf) a whole new script to do what you want. Finally, you will have to get anyone who wants to use it to install it on their monobook.js pages. Alternatively, you could get a bot created that does the scrapes and just posts the results - this would then need maintaining, but you wouldn't have to install anything; not sure what would be better/easier. Ale_Jrbtalk 11:37, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Your telling me :) I could never do this myself! Way to complex.
Oh, the scraping part is no problem. I have a friend who is an expert on autohotkey thankfully working on this now. I would simply paste the generated info to the page.
The monobook.js part (having editors add pop script) is okay. I just need to find someone willing to do write the script. Where could I request help for this? Ikip (talk) 16:37, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Not Help:User style, it redirects from Help:Monobook.css, but there is nothing on the talk page... Ikip (talk) 16:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

(reset indent) So you're going to copy and paste the scrapes of various Google pages onto a subpage somewhere, and you need a script that will display the information in a pop-up when a user does something. Hmm. It would be more efficient if the script itself did the scraping, but more effort for the script coder. The place to go for a script request is Wikipedia:WikiProject_User_scripts/Requests but the average response time is about never, so you'd be better approaching a coder directly - preferably one who would find the thing useful. Ale_Jrbtalk 16:55, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Your advice is fabulous. thanks.
You enthusiasm for the the possibility that I would be getting help with this is heart warming. :) j/k. Ikip (talk) 17:19, 13 September 2009 (UTC)



  • wikED stopped working. I get the basic editor only.
  • User contributions link vanished from the toolbox.

I have tried:

  • If I log out, the contributions link returns, so it isn't browser related.
  • Contributions behaviour is the in all 3 browsers I have (just to be sure).
  • Contributions acts the same on 2 different computers.
  • I reset my preferences (ouch), but that didn't help either problem.
  • I checked my monobook.js file and it remains empty.

I am mystified. Any ideas? I have put too many computers through the recycling crushers and the @#$% things hate me.Sinneed (talk) 06:28, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I also killed the watch/unwatch tab at the page top in the debugging, it seems.Sinneed (talk) 06:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

  • OK I found the wikED problem...I had turned off the toggle at the top right corner of the page.
  • I remain clueless about the user contributions and watch/unwatch links. I can still reach them by submenus...but did something change or did I "brokeded" it? :}

Any wisdom would be welcome.05:02, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Linking categories outside Wikipedia Commons to file in Wikipedia Commons

I can't seem to use a category from Wikipedia English on a file that is in Wikipedia Common. Wikipedia Common says it is a non-existent category. But the category does exist in Wikipedia English (e.g. Category:Military operations involving the United States). I am hoping there is a way to do this.Mfstelmach (talk) 07:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

[[:en:Category:Military operations involving the United States]] should work. PC78 (talk) 11:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Note however that Commons has a separate categorization system from en.Wikipedia (and all other projects as well). Categorizing Commons content based on another project's category pages is a bad idea, just as it would be a bad idea to categorize things here based on Commons categories. That being said, I'm fairly certain that Commons has a similar (if not the same) matching category of their own already. Attempting to use the :en:Category link will only create a link, and not actually categorize the file, anyway.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 12:40, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps I misunderstood what was being asked. The method I described above will only create a link to the en.Wikipedia category. If you're trying to categorise a file on Commons then you can only use the categories there. commons:Category:Military operations seems to be the closest fit, but you could always create commons:Category:Military operations involving the United States if you feel it is necessary. PC78 (talk) 12:49, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Interesting ... Thanks for great technical information. However, wikipedia seems to need a significant expansion of capability in this area. Being able to only create a link between en.Wikipedia and Commons does not seem to be very useful. Why not allow categorising a file on Commons. Why is it a bad idea to increase category cross-references between Commons and other area. Maybe I am missing something. But it seems like we are trying to keep files in Commons hidden so they will never be found or used. Also, if it is so difficult to categorize and cross-reference files in Commons to content in en.Wikipedia then maybe it is better to put images and media outside of commons in en.Wikipedia. It seems like a quite a bit of work to replicate the en.Wikipedia categories in commons. But, it is impossible to replicate en.Wikipedia content in Commons. All of the fertile synergistic category cross-referencing between en.Wikpedia and Commons is lost. Seems like an incredible waste to me. I hope this is fixed soon. Best regards, Mfstelmach (talk) 21:11, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Don't forget that English Wikipedia isn't the only one. And as its name suggests, Commons is common for all language versions of Wikipedia. Do you think it would be useful to have the same image categorized in dozens of similar categories, only in different languages? But I think that English Wikipedia category page could contain a link to corresponding Commons category. Svick (talk) 21:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
You are right. Thanks for your comment. This issue is not limited to en.Wikipedia. I believe it would be extremely useful to have the same image categorized in dozens of similar Wikipedia categories, only in different languages. Maybe some day this will be possible to do on Wikipedia.Mfstelmach (talk) 19:32, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Some Wikipedia pages don't open but start a download

Sometimes (but not always!) when I click on a link to a wikipedia article the browser will not open the page but a window will open asking whether I want to open or download the page. If I click on open it will anyway start a download and not open the page. When I have Getright active, the download will be handled by getright, otherwise MS IE does the same thing. It also happens when I search the term from the Wikipedia main page. It does not happen with all search terms, only with some, so I am not able to read these articles. I am using IE8 and Windows XP. Can anybody tell me how to resolve the issue? I did not find it discussed in the Q&A yet. Windows message: Windows has the following information about this MIME type. This page will help you find software needed to open your file. MIME Type: application/x-gzip-compressed Description: UnKnown Windows does not recognize this MIME type. --Toscanaman (talk) 13:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Please see this MS blog post. It might be of some help. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 13:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
According to the KITE product manager 4/13/2009, reverting to IE7 is the work-around. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 14:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Better still, install Firefox instead. Lugnuts (talk) 16:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
I get this with FireFox occasionally. I think it occurs when my connection gets slow and the page is only partially rendered, thus FF does not recognize it as a web page and prompts to save it.---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 23:32, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Technical Issue

I’m really unsure where to discuss this, so I’m leaving it here to be forwarded to the appropriate parties:

Look past the fact that this link is to a fictional person:

The discussion link above mentions that personal attributes such as those seen on any standard Personal Information Document (drivers licenses, wanted posters, etc) do not, in fact, appear on ANY page on individual persons (for example, [Ghandi|Mahatma GANDHI] in any orderly fashion; I submit that revamping the personal tables (where the picture usually is located) with exactly this information (height, weight, eye color, hair color, race, ethnicity, religious preference, etc) should be included, with “Unknown” or “Not Applicable” when appropriate (with Unknown as the default/placeholder entry). There will be those that say such information is irrelevant; I submit to you that it is precisely relevant. In GHANDI’S case, for example, his passive (non-violent) policies were sculpted by his experiences in early life (that violence only brought more violence in turn) and his religious upbringing. Those that feel it’s “not worth the effort” should leave their laziness elsewhere, and not waste other people’s time if they don’t wish to assist in the process. (Yes, I’ve seen that excuse before as well.) (talk) 19:29, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[2]

Note: this thread has been moved from Wikipedia talk:Village pump. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 18:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
What have height, weight, eye colour, etc. have to do with career influences in childhood. How would you put "his passive (non-violent) policies were sculpted by his experiences in early life (that violence only brought more violence in turn)" into an infobox? Such things, if indeed relevant, belong in the text of the article, not trivially enumerated in the infobox. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 22:56, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Mistakes made with AWB

Help? I made a really bad mistake using AWB. Because of a mistake in the creation of a regular expression I changed and unknown number of level three headers to become level two headers. There might be over a thousand pages involved. Is there a way to roll back that may edits. Waiting is only going to make things worse. I'll watch his page. --droll [chat] 00:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to all who responded I think I can handle it. I've fixed about 700 already. Only about 1 in 12 of the articles have a problem. I want to get it done ASAP. I should have it done by late tonight. --droll [chat] 02:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Note: this thread has been moved from Wikipedia talk:Village pump. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 18:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Hiding stubs

I'm working on an article and the subject of the article falls under 5 stub types. As I don't really want 5 stubs to show up on the article (the sub list would be longer than the article info), is there a way to hide the stub comment but still have the stub be active (not using a hidden comment)? I haven't been able to find any info in a short search. Thanks. OlYellerTalktome 14:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe just adding the category added by the stub would be the best way as the rest of the stub template it just for show anyway. OlYellerTalktome 14:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I have been in such situations also. Why don´t you put scroll-bar boxes or collapsible wiki-templates (like this one) for such cases? - Damërung ...ÏìíÏ..._ΞΞΞ_ . --  19:54, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
The {{asbox}} template is fine for this, the main intention is not to have a lot of stubs in one page, nor keep icons, but have the correct categorization of the respective stub category. --Woglinde 02 (talk) 19:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Note: this thread has been moved from Wikipedia talk:Village pump. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 18:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Help with statistics

I'm trying to determine how many hits the page 16"/45 caliber Mark 6 gun got while up as a DYK, but I got a problem: every time I use this tool I get the results for the page 16. Can some one tell me how to fix this, or work around it, so I can see the stats? TomStar81 (Talk) 06:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

You want to post this question at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical). Normally I would suggest contacting the tool's author, User:Henrik, but it does not look like he is very active. I tried using the html names from viewing the article's page source in my browser but it didn't work. Good luck :-) --Commander Keane (talk) 08:44, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I think these stats are accurate. The tool works for the display of stats, but formats the link incorrectly if you then try to change the date displayed or click through to the article. At any rate, the stats for the article 16 are very different.-gadfium 09:39, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Note: this thread has been moved from Wikipedia talk:Village pump. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 18:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

coloring 'legend' with css on 'my preferences' page

In my css I have the following:
fieldset {
background: #000000 !important;
color: #FFFFFF !important;
border: 1px solid #FFFFFF !important;
legend {
background: #000000 !important;
color: #FFFFFF !important;
border: 1px solid #FFFFFF !important;

This works for everything on the 'my preferences' page except the row of buttons. the source code looks like this:
<!-- start content -->
<form action="" method="post">
<div id="preferences">
<legend>User profile</legend>
<legend>Basic information</legend>

The second 'legend' is the right color but the first one (User profile) isnt. That legend, unlike the second, is also a button. Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 19:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Try this:
fieldset, legend, .page-Special_Preferences #preftoc li
  background: #000000 !important;
  color: #FFFFFF !important;
  border: 1px solid #FFFFFF !important;

.page-Special_Preferences #preftoc li a {
  color: #FFFFFF !important;
-- Codicorumus  « msg 19:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. That did it. ☺ Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 19:54, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

expand the main page contents to full screen?

I deleted the portlets in the sidebar using the following css:
#p-lang {
display: none;

But now how do I expand the main page contents to full screen? I tried the obvious things but they didnt do anything. Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 19:43, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

See "css for removing the navigation tab" on WP:HD -- Finlay McWalterTalk 19:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Great. Thank you. It gives this code:
   div.generated-sidebar {  display:none; }
   div#p-logo   { display:none; }
   div#p-search { display:none; }
   div#p-tb     { display:none; }
   div#p-lang   { display:none; }
   div#content  { margin-left:0; }
Didnt they leave out #p-coll-create_a_book, #p-navigation, and #p-interaction? Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 20:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Can we have this conversation in one place at a time? Algebraist 20:18, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Something that lists transclusions of all pages from a given category

I don't think such a function or template exists (most of this is currently done via bots), but we could have a template that would generate a list of transclusions of all pages in a category. This would be infinitely helpful with pages that deal with categories and statuses, like with WP:SPI for instance (which is heavily dependent on a bot which is currently down). Has anyone thought of this, or does such a thing exists in the software? MuZemike 21:37, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Postage Stamps Etc.: Software Patch to Track Sizing

I propose a software enhancement. Because some images must be size-constrained by law, many of those images are uploaded by contributors who do not realize the limits exist, and Wikimedia may be held legally liable for carrying the images in illegal sizes, I suggest two processes:

--- When someone tries to upload an image, s/he should be asked if it's one of the image types subject to limits. The single question can appear on the user interface for uploading. Answering in the negative can leave all other questions invisible, and the uploading can proceed unrestricted. If the answer is affirmative, the contributor would be asked "What is the actual or life size of the original from which the image is taken? If unknown, state a range for either or both dimensions. If the image is part of the original, state the size of the whole original, e.g., one postage stamp." Whether sizes legally depend on the design or the paper or stock for one stamp has to be determined. Allow selecting length units (centimeters, inches, etc.). Then allow a preference for enlargement or reduction for an image for which life size reproduction is forbidden. The Wiki software would then enforce the constraints. Wiki editors should be allowed to easily override the preference for enlargement or reduction by going in the other direction, as well as to update the information supplied by the original contributor, with reversion possible, as with article text. Where the life size is stated as a range rather than exactly for either dimension, life-size reproduction would be barred even if otherwise allowed, enlargement would be beyond the largest dimensions stated as life size, and reduction would be below the smallest dimensions stated as life size, all to ensure legal compliance.

--- A bot using similar code can review existing images. Those that might be of a type subject to the limits should be flagged for review. Editors could then mark an image as not being of a type subject to size constraints or enter the relevant size data and resize preference.

The single question: "Is this a postage stamp (including meter stamp), revenue stamp, U.S. bird hunting stamp (Migratory Bird Hunting Stamp Act), other U.S. or foreign government obligation or security, or bank or corpoation obligation or security? Yes. No. Uncertain. ('Uncertain' will be treated like 'Yes.')" Have a comment field, in case an explanation is offered (e.g., if it looks like a stamp but isn't), since the image can easily be separated from a Talk entry. For the first question's answer, only if the answer is Yes or Uncertain would other questions appear.

The questions that follow if the initial question is answered in the affirmative or ambiguously would be about whether the original is postally canceled and whether the image is in color or black and white and whether the image is a full or partial image.

An argument is that Wikipedia does not display in any size, that being up to the user's monitor. However, Wikipedia does rely on common expectations respecting normal size ranges for text, and a similar theory would applies to images, thus Wikimedia may be legally liable for mis-sized images if it doesn't address these expectations, and the prudent course in case of doubt would be to publish no images that have size restrictions, e.g., no postage stamps at all. It may be that life-sizing should be entirely barred in cases where near life-size reproduction is already barred, just to be safe.

If a user adjusts their computer or browser so that reproduction is in an illegal size, and is not advised or directed to do so by Wikimedia, I don't believe Wikimedia has any liability for the user's act. Therefore, the Wiki software does not have to handle that case.

Thank you. Nick Levinson (talk) 01:15, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Where to go to discuss WP "beta"?

Where do I go to discuss the new site look? SharkD (talk) 02:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

See 03:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit a new page notice

The notice received when editing a new page, such as found when clicking a red link, no longer mentions or links to searching for the term. I am not imtimately familiar with the mediawiki namespace, but it would be appreciated if an admin more familiar with them could correct this oversight introduced by recent changes. Vassyana (talk) 07:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if you mean MediaWiki:Noarticletext, MediaWiki:Searchmenu-new or MediaWiki:Noexactmatch. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:02, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
I think what you are looking for is Mediawiki:Newarticletext. Here is the dif for when it was taken out. Consider discussing with Jredmond - Kingpin13 (talk) 14:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Beta improvement

I've thought of a new Beta feature for Wikimedia. We all know those little windows over some webpages that show Google Earth maps. I know that information is not admissible by Wikimedia, but there is OpenStreetMap, a Wiki community that designs free maps from all over the world. Is it possible to design a new feature that shows an interactive map from [3]. --Schumi4ever (talk) 16:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The techies are way, way ahead of you on that one :) They expect to see returns in the next couple of months; for now you can click on the globe of a set of co-ordinates to get a separate (I think) but rough map. - Jarry1250 [ In the UK? Sign the petition! ] 16:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
So that feature is in developement. That's good, pretty good. But the maps we have now are blank with a red dot on the place you want. I mean an interactive map, in which you can zoom in and out, see streets, move to the North, South, East and West and so on... --Schumi4ever (talk) 17:12, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
You should click on the globe next to a set of coordinates once. It's called WikiMiniAtlas. And the openstreetmap work will also include this. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 18:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Changed layout?

Aside from the "vanishing" articles, did the software change the layout somehow? My watchlist looks completely different (and not in a good way, IMO), and my userpage doesn't fit my screen any more (I did have it lined up in a way that I liked).
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 00:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Yea, I switched back to monobook and everything is more normal looking. The update screwed up the Vector skin.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 00:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
The watchlist had a legend added to it, see #Legend for hiding instructions. –xenotalk 00:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Yea, I just saw your post about that above. Does "hiding" it get rid of all of the spacing between entries in Vector, though? Anyway, that's only part of the problem, since whatever changed adjusted the size of a ton on other items (headings were all changed, I think). I really don't see this as something that I'll simply adjust to, the layout of multiple things seems to have been changed for the worse.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 00:45, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I haven't drunk the vector koolaid. –xenotalk 00:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Well, the changes affect Monobook (and all of the others, I assume) as well. There appears to have been a change to common.css, I'm guessing. Is there a changelog somewhere, or a central discussion about the update at all (aside from this, of course)?
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 00:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Things always change, if you are more specific, then people can help you better. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 01:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)



One of the big changes I see is a reduced fontsize by one point of the sidebar and personal links. Makes it a lot harder to read for me in Safari. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 01:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that is the key change, but it's not limited to Vector, it actually appears to be a global change. I don't know what actually changed though, because there doesn't appear to be any changelog that I can locate(?!), so this is all pure speculation. The heading have changed for sure, the "personal links" (the area with your username, watchlist, prefs, etc... links, normally at the top of the page in Monobook and Vector) are definitely smaller, the sidebar appears... different, and I think that the default size of the frame around images is larger now. Spacing around text seems to have changed as well, although that behavior is significantly different depending on the skin you use. It's really tough to evaluate what is actually a problem without knowing what actually changed though. Anyway, if I'm just going to get snipped at about saying anything, I'll leave it up to the rest of you. Time for me to watch a movie.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 01:38, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't like this change! UncleDouggie (talk) 14:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
This is now fixed. Trevor went through a few iterations of how to properly set font sizes (eg without interfering with browser font settings or zooming), and what we last ended up with turned out to round differently between Firefox and Safari. It's now been nudged up a little (from 0.7em to 0.75em against the main font size) and is now more consistent. --brion (talk) 23:36, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Hey, great! thanks Brion (and thank Trevor for me as well, please). I appreciate that you guys were doing this work, I don't want that to get lost in this... the other issue that (was here, I'm about to create another section for it) isn't really directly related to the underlying issue that you're talking about here.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 00:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks! UncleDouggie (talk) 06:35, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


The file to check is RELEASE-NOTES. The difficulty is that that file is based on Mediawiki version, not on when the code was last updated on the live site. So the following diff should have most of the changes, but may not have all of them: [4] — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:11, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Wow, so there's no one creating changelogs at all? That's just... "ghetto". Amongst all of the writers here, including people who are ready and willing to volunteer time, no one has stepped up and created a changelog system yet? The little section in Signpost seems to at least be a start. Anyway, I'm trying hard not to sound like UncleDouggie here, but "I don't like this change!" is where I seem to be ending up myself almost by default. This release just doesn't appear to be well planned out, from this end of things. :(
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 14:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
That file (RELEASE-NOTES) is the changelog for Mediawiki. The problem is, we do not update the live site just when a new mediawiki version is developed. Rather, the changes to the code are tested on the live site long before the next version of Mediawiki is released for others to use. There is an svn revision control branch dedicated to the live site, so it is possible to see exactly what code it running on the live site. And the revision control logs for that branch give a summary of every change to it. So I was trying to give a way for someone who is not familiar with svn to get a list of changes. The developers have no trouble using the revision control system to see exactly how each file has been edited over time. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
No, no, I understand what you're saying, I'm not... well, I am criticizing I guess, but I'm trying to be constructive about it. Part of this is just surprise on my part, as I've never really thought to even look for a en.wikipedia specific changelog (which is a good thing, really!). I knew right away what you were pointing me towards, since I (unfortunately) have some experience with svn/vcs systems. For the developers (including you?) that's perfectly adequate, and it should really be all that concerns them. revision control logs do not make for an adequate public face for software development progress however, even for a technically inclined audience. Wikipedia has a partially knowledgeable audience, but there is a significant number of editors and readers who have never been exposed to programming let along version control. Even amongst those of us who do have experience with programming and version control, I'm sure that most of us have had the experience of looking at an unfamiliar version control log...
Anyway, I'm volunteering for the job I guess. I'll need to begin digging into the live and development svn logs to familiarize myself with it, but eventually I'll start... Wikipedia:Software updates? I haven't actually thought of a name. I'll have to look and talk to whomever it is who regularly writes the tech column in the Signpost as well, of course.
hey, look at that, there is a historic page at "Wikipedia:Software updates" I tried "Wikipedia:Updates" first, and that was redlinked.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 00:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Deleting monobooks

{{resolved}} I can't think of a better place to post this, but with the new software, user javascript/monobook.js pages cannot be deleted. For instance, a user has requested deletion of their monobook for technical problem reasons, and I'm unable to grant it. I wasn't aware of this type of change until now. If this will be permanent, perhaps it ought to be noted somewhere? Like at WP:CSD#U1, and elsewhere?

Alternatively, I don't see an advantage in blocking the deletion ability of personal .js pages. I understand the implementation of personal editing and disallowance of outsiders, but if a user javascript page is explicitly being requested for deletion, there shouldn't be a barrier in that. I could be missing something, but I don't exactly see the logic behind it. JamieS93 00:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Curious. Is this true? —mattisse (Talk) 00:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Possibly just a bug. We will know later today (big bugs, before small bugs :D ) —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 01:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
At 10am another admin was able to delete it.  7  01:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
The ability for sysops to edit css and js pages, as well as to delete them, was removed during the most recent coding update. At the very latest, we should get it back within 24 hours. For now, I think some of the m:Stewards, or at least the ones who have adminship on enwiki, (at the very least User:Shanel), are willing to help for urgent matters. NW (Talk) 01:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
The code says sysops have the editusercss and edituserjs rights, so this should work fine as far as I know. There may be some bug related to the way those rights were split out from editusercssjs, don't know. --brion (talk) 01:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I can confirm that sysops can't currently delete/edit other users' css/js pages. — RockMFR 02:17, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I just tested this, and I can reproduce the problem as well, in both Monobook and Vector. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 04:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
This should be fixed now. (talkcontribs) 15:26, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Categories not showing

{{resolved}} After the updates it seems that if a page has only hidden categories on them and no non-hidden categories, then no categories will appear on the page regardless of user setting. Is this affecting anyone else or is it just me? Feinoha Talk, My master 07:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

bugzilla:20688TheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Fix deployed. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 15:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

edit dies with out of memory error


No idea where to post software failures in the middle of an update, but i am finding internet explorer 8 (my normal browser) goes away and eventually produces out of memory errors if I try to edit a page. This may be as it is trying to create a preview. Firefox works. (as witnes my being able to post this). My computer just gave me a friendly note saying it was increasing its virtual memory, which I interpret as it having used up the 4G or so available to it. Sandpiper (talk) 08:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like a problem on your end. Try restarting the computer when it happens. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
bugzilla:20668. Specific to the enhanced editing toolbar on IE 8. Dragons flight (talk) 15:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Definitelly not user specific, just happened with me, too. Happens only when using "Beta" skin, though. --PaterMcFly talk contribs 21:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I've disabled the new edit toolbar for now until we get it resolved, which hopefully should be within a day; all our folks who can test and fix it on windows are out at the moment. :( --brion (talk) 21:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Earlier this eveneing the problem was still there, but now explorer is doing edits (ie this one). I was using firefox this evening and that worked. I started out not using 'beta', though I gave that a try in case it helped, and it did not. The bugzilla description sounds about right. Sandpiper (talk) 01:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Roan has committed a fix, and I've deployed it. Reports indicate that this is now resolved, and the enhanced editing toolbar has been turned back on. — Werdna • talk 14:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Creating pages became harder


The "You may create the page "Foo", but consider checking the search results below to see whether it is already covered." text has been moved to below the search results. This is very annoying and makes creating pages harder. Is it an attempt to force people to read the search results first? If so, I think it is misguided. --Apoc2400 (talk) 10:59, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

No, it's a misguided attempt to make people use some sort of article wizard. Complain here. ↪REDVERS The internet is for porn 11:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Are you sure it's the same thing? --Apoc2400 (talk) 11:17, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
If you are looking at the message page, it does not show all of the text as it uses namespace detection. Open it for editing to see. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 11:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I am talking about the text with the redlink on the search results page. That text that appears to come from MediaWiki:Searchmenu-new. --Apoc2400 (talk) 11:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree, the change seems to have been made in r55592. The article creation link is on of the important features of Special:Search and shouldn't be at the bottom. --rainman (talk) 12:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
You found it just before me :) It seems to be and honest bug and nothing sinister. Now to get it fixed... --Apoc2400 (talk) 12:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Fix deployed. --brion (talk) 17:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Great! That was quick. Thanks a lot. --Apoc2400 (talk) 18:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Using a spam-blacklisted link in a citation - how/why is this possible?


See [5], [6] and [7]. The site '' is currently blacklisted at MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist. In that case, how was it possible for someone to successfully add it as a reference? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 17:38, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Cause the blacklist entry was malformed. [8] Dragons flight (talk) 17:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Oh, right. Thanks. :) --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 17:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)



Wikiblame currently appears to be broken. It returns "0 versions found" for any search (including pages I know have hundreds of versions). Is this connected with the server software update. SpinningSpark 19:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

What is Wikiblame? I've never even heard of it. Perhaps you should contact the owner/developer of whatever it is. --Deskana, (talk) 19:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
WP:WikiBlame. Svick (talk) 20:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Allows you to search the history to see when a string was added or deleted. Hopefully it will be fixed soon. I use it a lot. Dougweller (talk) 21:10, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Guess it works for me; did a search for 'stuff' on history of 'Foo' and it came back with "50 versions found". --brion (talk) 00:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


{{resolved}} It is not currently possible to edit individual sections on the WikiProject Rugby union talk page. Could someone please give that page a look-over and see what could be causing the trouble? – PeeJay 21:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Seems to by OK with Firefox and a monobook skin. What browser & skin are you using? Keith D (talk) 21:32, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
It was fixed in [9] which removed the magic word __NOEDITSECTION__. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
That edit must have been made while I wasn't looking. Cheers anyway. – PeeJay 07:52, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Before I go mad...

{{resolved}} ... can anyone point out to me why the bottom paragraph of this page (which currently starts with the words "Okay: as can be seen") is so much more indented than the paragraph which immediately precedes it? What tiny detail am I missing here? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Its the <tt> tags in the comment above. Don't use that. Prodego talk 22:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
That is actually a very confusing response, let me reword it so it is understandable. It isn't the tt tags themselves, it is what is in it, the tr tag. I'll fix that for you. Prodego talk 22:26, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict)It is the <tr> table row tag you stuck in there. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 22:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
D'oh. Cheers! Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Enhanced toolbar (option) is gone

{{resolved}} Under vector as well as monobook the option to turn on the new enhanced toolbar is gone from the preferences and it is not turned on when following the beta test link. Any ideas? Cacycle (talk) 00:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

It's disabled due to issues, it will be re-enabled once fixed, see #edit dies with out of memory error. Peachey88 (Talk Page · Contribs) 00:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Turned back on again. — Werdna • talk 14:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Numerical or HTML entity for semicolons?

{{resolved}} Is there a way to hard-code a semicolon character within a template, to avoid having the template interpret it as wiki markup? I am trying to have some semicolons in User:Rjanag/zh, but whenever I transclude the template it interprets them as markup (and instead of outputting a semicolon, it makes a subsection header like semicolons do in wikitext). I know there are ways of hard-coding other characters, such as {{!(}} for [ and &mdash;/&#8212; for — . Is there anything like that I can use for semicolons? rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 06:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, I found it: &#x003B; . I hadn't realized you could use hexadecimal Unicode directly on WP...good to know! rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 06:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Or shorter variants &#x3B; and &#59;. Svick (talk) 12:52, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Or {{COLON}}, which I think does the same thing for the unicode challenged. – ukexpat (talk) 15:48, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
No, as its name suggests, {{COLON}} renders as colon, rʨanaɢ wanted semicolon. Svick (talk) 17:39, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
{{;}} now exists. Algebraist 19:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Skip Toolserver Geohack

Is there any way to skip Toolserver's geohack page when a click on a geo-coordinate? I'd like a script that would take me to my favorite map site instead of taking me to's GeoHack page where I have to scroll down each time to click on the same link I want. --Gpaper (talk) 12:05, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Since you don't say /which/ URL, we can't really guess, since they all seem to be handled differently. Regardless, it would require some clever parsing to change the formatted coordinates to the one your mapsite uses (which, without you telling is, would be foolish to try first). So instead here is an example script that will append an anchor to the URLs in these links, basically jumping you down the page automatically. You could modify this script to point to another section easily, or even modify it to point to your favorite map site (with some more work).
example script
if((wgAction == 'view' || wgAction == 'submit') && wgNamespaceNumber > -1) addOnloadHook(geohackHack)

function geohackHack() {
  var docobj = document.getElementById('bodyContent') || document.getElementById('content') || document.getElementById('mw-content') || document.body;
  var a = getElementsByClassName(docobj,'a','external');
  for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++) {
    var url = a[i].getAttribute('href',2);
    if(url.indexOf('') == 0 && url.indexOf('#') == -1) {
      a[i].href = url + '#Other_information';
--Splarka (rant) 08:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the script. I'm a big user of Google's Satellite map, and that's what I always go to, but I tried to phrase the question so others would be able to use it for their own service. I inserted the script from above into my custom .js page, but it doesn't seem to make any modifications at all. Do I need to put it into a wrapper to make the browser run the script after the page loads? --Gpaper (talk) 00:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I only tested it in monobook with mozilla, I see you placed it in your vector.js. Are you getting any JS errors? --Splarka (rant) 07:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Template IMSLP broken

The templates {{IMSLP}} and {{IMSLP2}} seem to be broken for names which contain diacritics; e.g. the code {{IMSLP|cname=Bartók|id=Bartók, Béla}} gives "Free scores by Bartók at the International Music Score Library Project (IMSLP)" which doesn't work. I believe the cuplrit is the shortcut scores: which is defined, somewhat incorrectly, at meta:Interwiki map — the target definition is currently where it really should be (without the wwww.).

This has been discussed at 1) Template talk:IMSLP#Strictly, wrong target, 2) Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music#Dvorak IMSLP links are all broken, and 3) meta:Talk:Interwiki map#Scores to -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:20, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Temporary workaround implemented using external links. But the maintainers of the website should be informed that their redirect system is broken. Oh, and they also don't recognize the + as a space character in urls. See another broken linkTheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your quick fix (the template {{IMSLP2}} needed a bit more work); it seems to work now. I'll try to notify IMSLP tomorrow. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:46, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
The shortcut has now been fixed and links like scores:Category:Bartók, Béla now work again. However, I think there is no need to revert the two affected templates. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Word count updates

When correcting spelling errors it would be nice if "word counts" were updated 2 times per day.

1 per day can amount to 0.5 per day if the editor is in an unfavourable timezone.

It is accepted that instantaneous updates (as was the case a few months ago) apparently use too much computer resources.

2 per day would ensure that all editors see at least 1 update per day.

See Wikipedia talk:Typo Team#Word count updates

Typical wordcounts listed when you search for a word are:

  • September (234567) - correct
  • Septbmer (16) - error
  • Septemer (23) - error

Tabletop (talk) 01:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

An email

I have explicit permission to post this here, otrs:2009090710049813.

From: Gary Knott To: Subject: PDF files (and printing) Created: 09/07/2009 23:56:19 Dear W., I have two suggestions that I think would improve wikipedia.

(1) Provide a PRINT option on the text (dropping the side-bars, and all the extraneous material outside article content. [Lots of sites do this, and it would help a lot of people a lot.

(2) Find a way to accept and present pdf articles. This is particularly important for mathematical text. This may be hard, but it would be worth it. [I have several articles done with TeX and prepared as .pdf files that I would submit if you could handle them.] - and pdf files based on TeX are far more readable that the current wikipedia format.

Shalom, gary knott

He also is aware that I'm just posting here, nothing in particular can be done by email. It's just for dicussion and with this I move along. Keegan (talk) 21:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Ad (1) Wikipedia has special CSS stylesheets for printing that work automatically, so that the printed version doesn't contain navigation sidebar.
Ad (2) PDF files aren't easily editable, and so violate one of the core concepts of Wikipedia, that anyone can edit it. Also, subset of TeX can be used to render formulæ (see WP:MATH). Svick (talk) 22:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
  1. Why, when we use CSS to remove those navigational elements on printing?
  2. This will probably never happen, as PDFs cannot be easily edited.
Anomie 22:35, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
See Help:Printable for more. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 16:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

What happened to the search link in the redlink page?

When you click a redlink, there should be a link above the edit window to search for the title in case there's a place to redirect. Why is this gone? --NE2 21:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Eh, trying User talk:Jredmond first. Wish me luck. --NE2 21:44, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
See #Edit a new page notice ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 22:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I've put the search link back in its own list-item. Hopefully that will continue the emphasis on WP:YFA but still allow easy redirect searches. - Jredmond (talk) 14:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I saw this post earlier this morning, and then just now I had my first real experience with the changed message. I'm trying hard not to say that I don't like it simply because it's different, but... To anyone with more then a couple of edits, I just can't imagine anything in that message aside from the search link as being important. If I could design that message for myself then the only thing that is would include would likely be the search link.
The thing is, I don't disagree with the idea behind the change. The problem is that this is one of those areas where helping the newer editors is negatively impacting those of us who are more regular contributors here. I don't know what the solution to the issue here is, but something should be done to balance the competing interests involved in this change.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 20:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree that, for experienced users, the search is probably the only useful part of the message. (Deletion logs and protection notices are kept in different MediaWiki: system messages, so they aren't really relevant here.) Unfortunately, there isn't an easy way to have the full YFA+search+cite+subpage message for newbies but search-only for experienced users, so (for now at least) we're stuck with a one-size-fits-all message.
Also, could we please keep this discussion on the MediaWiki talk page? There's no way to achieve a decent consensus from seven isolated conversations. - Jredmond (talk) 21:11, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Ah, I didn't realize that there was a talk page there... I'll stick a note at the top of this section.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 21:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

XML Versions of Special:<Page> pages

I know that I've seen a method to grab Special pages in XML format, but I seem to have forgotten how... My most immediate need is for Special:Version and Special:SiteMatrix.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 15:43, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

You should be able to use the API to do this. E.g. gives you the matrix details. For everything the API can show you, go to and do a Ctrl-F for meta=siteinfo. Ale_Jrbtalk 15:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, thank you! geez... total brain-fart there. I just forgot to switch to using api.php instead of index.php.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 16:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

C's P's and F? in the category listings.

Could anyone explain what F denotes in the new category listings? I can see that C denotes subcategory, P denotes page (such as an article page). What is F? I just saw this type of listing, in for example the Nature category in Category:Fundamental. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 16:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I think I know: it is the number of media files in that cat. Such as an image. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 16:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
For me at least, it is possible to rollover the bits in bracktes and have an explanatory tooltip appear. - Jarry1250 [ In the UK? Sign the petition! ] 16:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Ancheta Wis is correct. F is for file. hmwith 21:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

ref in sortable

I'm editing Observation deck#List of observation decks by height and found that the two columns for height is not sorting properly. Data should be treated as numbers but the ref tags make them become string. I've read Help:Sorting and can't find any solution. --Quest for Truth (talk) 23:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you have to add {{Hs|nnn.n}} before the value in each column. {{SortKey}} does something similar but lacks any documentation. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:42, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I think {{nts}} would be better in this case, because you don't have to duplicate the numbers. Svick (talk) 11:33, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your help. I finally finish it with {{nts}}. --Quest for Truth (talk) 12:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

converting portlets to p-caction drop down menus

Would it be possible for me to convert the sidebar lists (p-tb, p-navigation, etc...) to p-caction drop down menus? Has it already been done somewhere? How difficult would it be? Could it be done with css or would it require javascript?

You mean like the p-caction of the Vector skin ? That should be easy to do, i specifically asked Trevor to fix the CSS so that such would be possible (I was thinking of a Twinkle menu at that time). I'm not aware of any scripts that do this atm however. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 15:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
There is a script that does exactly that. User:Gerbrant/hidePane.js I got the colors to work with my css but what I would really like to do is make the buttons stay in a fixed position at the top of the screen while I scroll. I tried everthing I could think of but nothing did anything except make the whole page not work. Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 18:12, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Before I got a new hard drive, I had a Greasemonkey script installed that fixed the position of the sidebar when I scrolled. I had to select my favorite languages to show, but the rest were just cut off. It worked very well. I forget exactly what it was called, but if you use Firefox, try searching for Wikipedia scripts on the Greasemonkey website. hmwith 20:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Nested footnotes aren't workning when list-defined


Nested footnotes aren't workning when defined in the new format, inside <references>. So the first code is working correctly, while the second isn't:

{{#tag:ref|foo<ref>ref</ref> bar|group="note"|name="note1"}}

<references group="note" />
<references />

[note 1]

  1. ^ foo[1] bar
  1. ^ ref
<ref name="note1" group="note" />

<references group="note">
{{#tag:ref|foo<ref>ref</ref> bar|group="note"|name="note1"}}
<references />

[note 1]

Svick (talk) 14:26, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

This is T22707 Happymelon 15:52, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Ah, thanks. I should've looked it up in bugzilla myself. Svick (talk) 16:12, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The following construct works:

<ref name="note1" group="note" />

<references />

[note 1]

  1. ^ a b foo[1]bar
  1. ^ ref

Ruslik_Zero 17:28, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Search page help

Didn't there use to be a link from the search page (the one you get to by clicking Search) to some kind of help page (presumably WP:Searching)? Anyway, shouldn't there be? And is that page up to date with all the current options? Is there more current documentation at the MediaWiki site or somewhere?--Kotniski (talk) 17:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

You probably want MediaWiki:Newarticletext (you have to open it for editing it to see all of the messages). There have been some recent changes. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 22:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Yea, see MediaWiki talk:Newarticletext#search link. There's some discussion about this above as well, but it should really be occurring on the talk page
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 23:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the link, but that's not really what I was asking about. I don't mean what you see when you click a redlink; I mean what you see when you click the "Search" button (with or without anything in the search field). Basically - where is our search functionality documented, and how are readers supposed to find it when searching?--Kotniski (talk) 06:51, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
In couple of ways, either click on Help in the sidebar, and the navigate to "Search for an article", or on the search page type in search and click on "help and project pages". --rainman (talk) 14:58, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
All seems very counterintuitive. How do we get a direct link to help-on-searching onto the search results page? (Presumably there's a MediaWiki: page we can edit/create?)--Kotniski (talk) 08:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Time-limited watchlist

My watchlist has been growing over years. I periodically clean it up, deleting the issues I lost interest, however I cannot arrest it growth no matter how I try. (I am sure many old-timers deal with the issue; your advice is welcome.)

Quite often I add an item to my watchlist after doing some important or significant changes in a tangential articles, to see how other editors react. I want to watch it only for 2-3 weeks; "until the dust settles".

Is it possible to add an option that an item is aded to my watchlist only for a certain time, similarly to blocks? The implementation does not need to be very exact: I don't care that the item is removed exactly after 6d 0h 0m 0s. THe cleanup may be done, e.g., at the login, or once a week, whatever.

Any opinions? - Altenmann >t 22:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you want this only for specific articles? I can think of some clever ways to do this for your entire watchlist (save your watchlist, then in three weeks use a list comparer to compare the saved list to your current watchlist, and then replace it with only the new items).
The way I keep my watchlist culled is by just unwatching stuff on a regular basis =) You could use something like importScript('User:Alex Smotrov/wlunwatch.js'); to add an instant unwatch button to your watchlist. –xenotalk 23:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
This could be done by creating a list of those pages on a subpage of your user page and creating a bot that would check that page and delete old entries. The pages on that list wouldn't show up in your watchlist, but on "Related changes" of that page. Entries on that list could look like this: {{temp watch|Some page|6d}}.
Another option is that when you add a page to that list, bot would add it to your watchlist and remove it after the specified time. The problem with this alternative is that the bot would need to know your password to access and edit your watchlist. Svick (talk) 00:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I recall a similar proposal sometime ago about adding datestamps to the watchlist, see Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_42#Dated_Watchlist_items. -- œ 00:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Vanishing articles?

Resolved: Parser bug fixed. You may need to purge or edit individual pages.

This infobox Template:Infobox Gridiron football person is blank, and it blanks all the text of articles it's in, but when I go to edit, the text is there. What gives? Abductive (reasoning) 23:52, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm having the same issue on Chop Suey! (song). All the categories are still there through. Looking at the article you linked, it's blanked for me as well. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 23:54, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Me too. If you look on article talk pages, some banners are visible and others aren't. PC78 (talk) 23:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Apparently ditto with something over at Sarah Palin. I imagine it has something to do with: "Software updates are being applied to Wikimedia sites; there may be some brief interruption as the servers update." user:J aka justen (talk) 00:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
We're looking into it... --brion (talk) 00:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Also, the text that suggests you can create a non-existent article (along with handy redlink to click) is gone. –xenotalk 00:15, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
(ec)Another instance with a different template on Marc Garneau. I have also noticed problems on talk pages with {{WPBS}} or {{WPMILHIST}} as well, on Talk:USS Texas (BB-35). I see that brion is on it, so hopefully this will be fixed soon. -MBK004 00:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Just so you guys know, it is only occurring for me in Vector skin in both Firefox and IE. If I'm signed out, they render fine. About 1/20 articles are doing this for me, for ex. randoms Grzeszów, John Warner (half missing), Storm Shadow.
Peace and Passion   ("I'm listening....") 00:17, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
It kills cricket infoboxes on all pages like Harbhajan Singh (TFA) YellowMonkey (bananabucket!) 00:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
As User:Peace and Passion first noted at wp:an, logging out appears to have an impact, perhaps due to theme. I'm using Vector in Safari. When I log out, it's still fubar even in MonoBook, in Safari, perhaps due to some client-side cache. But when I browse from Firefox, which has no cache of Wikipedia, the articles specifically mentioned above are showing up fine. user:J aka justen (talk) 00:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
(Moved from WP:AN) by Peace and Passion   ("I'm listening....") 00:32, 17 September 2009 (UTC) for the use of the "fixers" here....
Twinkle/Friendly seem to also be broken by the update (at least for me in Firefox). Manual page tagging and warning is much harder than I remember.  7  00:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Twinkle is broken in Opera too. And, yes, manual page tagging is much harder than it was before. ;0 Eeekster (talk) 00:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I posted a twinkle bug notice and TheDJ quickly found the issue - and a fix is in the works [10].  7  00:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Parser bug now fixed. It was a bug in an attempt to clean up extra whitespace around category links -- sometimes it would instead delete the entire article text. Woops! :) --brion (talk) 00:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Hidden categories & printing

When printing an article should the hidden categories be output? It looks like they are always output regardless of user preference for their display. Keith D (talk) 00:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Hidden categories shouldn't be displayed when printing an article, and the current behaviour is a bug that has been fixed in revision 55727 of MediaWiki. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is currently running revision 55629, so the fix isn't on this site yet. Graham87 08:50, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Looks like we could have fixed it ourselves by adding a CSS rule to MediaWiki:Print.css. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 11:46, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is actually running revision "52088 plus numerous live hacks and single-revision merges" (as far as I can tell, anyway); since about 2 months ago the currently-running code has been published in a "wmf-deployment" branch, which has the side effect of rendering useless the comparison of Special:Version with the trunk revision of any fix to determine if it is live. Anomie 12:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Fixed with the update. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 12:17, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Twinkle partially broken for anyone else?

Resolved: Twinkle seems to be working again, at least it is for me

Feinoha Talk, My master 16:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Is anyone else have trouble with Twinkle for the past hour or so? Some of the features are still working, but "csd" seems to just do nothing when clicked. I am assuming there is some sort of javascript issue, but I cleared all my caches, and even rebooted and can't seem to figure it out. Anyone? ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 20:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Mysteriously it has started working again. Any ideas what caused that? I'm baffled! ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 23:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I've also experience this problem, where clicking on the tabs does nothing, it's still doing it for me. -- œ 04:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Amalthea did a revert on one of the twinkle files last night, perhaps that is related. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 12:08, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Recovering old username

I know I created a Wikipedia account, probably over a year ago, but I can no longer remember the user name.

I just had to create a new account in order to log in. Is there any way I can recover my old account's user name given the email address I specified when I created it?

If I do manage to retrieve the old username, can I delete the new one I created today?

Keith —Preceding unsigned comment added by WritermanUK (talkcontribs)

  • Can you remember any articles you edited and approximately when? Go to the article, click on "history" at the top and navigate to the time. That might give you a reminder. The new user name can't be deleted, but you can abandon it. We can't reverse search on the email address, if you find the account, the email address means you can get a password reminder. ↪REDVERS The internet is for porn 10:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Special:RecentChangesLinked going haywire at Wikipedia:WikiProject Physics/Watchlist

Half the sections don't work, and instead give ugly gibberish filled sections. But another half works just fine. What gives? Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 07:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Per the sitenotice: "Software updates are being applied to Wikimedia sites; we're shaking out a few remaining issues." ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 11:17, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
bugzilla:20689TheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
This was duped to the older bugzilla:16129 which implies this is an older problem (though it may be 'spreading' as more UI messages are made flexible, so affecting more includable special pages). --brion (talk) 19:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

code and tt size

Is it just me, or has text enclosed with <tt>...</tt> or <code>...</code> gotten a lot smaller? ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 11:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

And pre as well

This is rather small for an old geezer like myself. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 11:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a bad change. Also, the timestamps on my watchlist are microscopic. Happening in Firefox and Safari. Please revert. UncleDouggie (talk) 14:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Appears to be a change in the Vector skin; no problem with Monobook. Didn't see the issue with timestamps though. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Definitely much smaller than before; added to Bugzilla as bugzilla:20706, we'll see if we can clean it up. --brion (talk) 00:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

HTML type attribute missing


Pages are now missing the HTML type attribute. I ran Black Hawk War and some other pages through the W3C Validator about two weeks ago (you can find some subtle reference errors that way). At that time, it validated with no errors. Now, every page has errors about missing type attributes— Black Hawk War alone has 22 errors.

Errors about duplicate ids are a problem in {{citation/core}} that is under discussion. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 02:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeap. The <script> tags are missing the type parameter. Bugzilla! Locos epraix ~ Beastepraix 02:41, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, now there are typically six instances of '<script>' that should be '<script type="text/javascript">'. See, for example, the W3C report for Beauty. I've never had much luck with Bugzilla; perhaps someone with more skill can file a bug report? Eubulides (talk) 02:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
This was already fixed in r56601 but not yet applied on the live site. Basically, MediaWiki is transitioning from XHTML 1.0 to HTML 5 (which doesn't require the "type" attribute on script elements if its javascript). Right now we're trying to support both, so there might be an occasional validation problem such as this. (But if this does cause failure in some browsers, the fix should be synced quickly) Mr.Z-man 05:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 12:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

To clarify, this was a bug: the type attribute is not required in HTML5 and will be dropped there (at least sometimes), but it should still be output in XHTML 1.0 Transitional (which Wikipedia is still using for now). This won't cause any actual problems, because browsers all assume that script is JavaScript and style is Cascading Style Sheets if no type is specified. So I'm not going to ask anyone to bother syncing the fix. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 18:02, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Fix has been deployed while I was in there, but as noted it only makes a difference to the validator. Keeping noise down to make it easier to find any real errors is helpful though! --brion (talk) 18:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)


Can someone please tell me the correct css name for the new legend on the watchlist? I want to hide it. Thanks! –xenotalk 23:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, I found it. I feel clever now. (code follows for your monobook.css if you want to hide it too) –xenotalk 23:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC) {display: none;}
Is there any way to hide the new underlined m, n and b symbols as well? –Juliancolton | Talk 00:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Those aren't new, just the dotted underlining is new. I don't know. –xenotalk 00:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I believe those are called tooltips, yes? I find them a bit annoying. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Watchlist legend

Ok, I get that it's useful to see "Legend: N - new page, m - minor edit, b - bot edit." for new users, but it's irritating me already. Is there a way to hide it? J Milburn (talk) 10:37, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

My magic Xeno-ball says: {display: none;}
added to your monobook.css and then a hard refresh. See the section #Legend above. What I want is to lose the damn tooltips and underlining on the Nmb. ↪REDVERS The internet is for porn 10:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
And a partial solution to my own latter point. I can remove the annoying underlines, but not lose the dumbed-down tootltip:
abbr.newpage {border:0;} {border:0;}
abbr.minor {border:0;}
So that's a start. ↪REDVERS The internet is for porn 11:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Thankyou muchly :) J Milburn (talk) 11:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Nice job! (Combined threads) –xenotalk 12:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Yup, rather irritating for the experienced user. - Jarry1250 [ In the UK? Sign the petition! ] 16:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I tried to remove the legend using this code, doing a full refresh afterward, but nothing changed. Enigmamsg 18:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
You need to put it in Special:Mypage/monobook.css (not .js). If you copy my monobook there's a bunch of other chaff that's been hidden that you won't miss. –xenotalk 21:59, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I've been really, really cheeky and done it for you. Just hard-refresh now and your watchlist will be shiny bright. I didn't add Xeno's extras, though. ↪REDVERS The internet is for porn 22:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Wow. The the new tool tips are super ugly. Can we make them go away? I mean as a default for everyone?--Knulclunk (talk) 22:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Why do you think they were added? Could it perhaps be in response to the hundreds of "what do those wierd cryptic letters on my watchlist mean?" questions we've had at the help desk?? They're not intended for experienced users; fortunately, those users are the ones who are able to easily hide them if they find them annoying. (also)Happymelon 14:13, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Their obviously not intended for experienced users, which is exactly the problem. Turn them on for IP's and newer users (less then X edits), but turn them off otherwise. That we must mess around with our custom CSS/JS for this is... rude.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 15:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Extra category divs on every page

Every page now has a #catlinks div, regardless of whether or not it is a content page. On action=edit, there are even two of them. Anyone know what's going on with this? — RockMFR 03:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

This was marked as resolved, but it's definitely not fixed. — RockMFR 23:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Hmm, well I was not seeing it anymore. Do you have HotCat enabled per chance ? —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 23:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
It's not a gadget issue. Here's a snippet of the HTML coming from the server:
<div class="catlinks catlinks-allhidden" id="catlinks"> </div></form>
<div class="printfooter">
Retrieved from "<a href=""></a>"</div>
			<div id='catlinks' class='catlinks catlinks-allhidden'></div>			<!-- end content -->

RockMFR 23:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The div is now always included - but hidden if it's empty - to make it easier for editing gadgets that are being worked on to dynamically add categories to the list while you work. (Otherwise the client-side code won't know where the category list belongs.) As far as I know this shouldn't cause any problems as such; what's the problem you're actually seeing? --brion (talk) 00:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Well for one, there shouldn't be two elements with the same id. What's the reason for having two of them on the edit page? — RockMFR 01:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
bugzilla:20718TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Blocked users and abuse log

Why aren't blocked users allowed to see the abuse filter log? -Porchcrop (talk|contributions) 08:24, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Why would they need to? OrangeDog (talk • edits) 11:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Aren't they? If it's available to all users, including logged out, then it should be available to blocked users too. I don't think Wikipedia is supposed to operate on some kind of "need to know" basis. --Apoc2400 (talk) 11:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

It's an attribute of the generic method used to check permissions (originally, the abuse log was intended for privileged users only, and so a blocked user shouldn't be able to see it). Could be fixed up if the community is so inclined... Bugzilla is that way. — Werdna • talk 14:10, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

program feature idea

I'm posting this here to find out if this is plausible...

Highlight a term and then press enter to go to the wiktionary entry on that term.

1. Would this be easy for developers to add to the Wikimedia software?

2. What is the current proposal process for adding new features to the software?

The Transhumanist 23:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Might be posible through javascript. For instructions on how to submit requests see Wikipedia:Bug reports and feature requests©Geni 23:11, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I was sort of thinking about this myself, a while back. Why not simply interwiki-link to important words within body text? If it's an item that is directly relevant/related to the article topic, then a Wikipedia link would be more appropriate. If it's a more unusual word though, I wouldn't have an issue with a Wiktionary link being in the body text.
Putting the above aside and addressing the specific idea here though, the New York Times does this on their web site, and I see no reason why we couldn't either. I just don't see a compelling reason not to create interwiki-links, using the existing tools, is all.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 23:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
It is subjective to define "unusual word", as the standard of a native speaker must be different to ESL, and may depend on many other factors. --Quest for Truth (talk) 23:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't quite understand the request; IE8 and FF 3.5 do that already. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:42, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
What you mean is Internet Explorer 8#Accelerators? How about people not using IE8 and FF 3.5? I suggest you check out and experience the dictionary yourself. --Quest for Truth (talk) 12:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Since this feature is useful on all websites, not just Wikipedia, it's better provided by a browser addon (of which several are already available) then by a Mediawiki feature. Algebraist 15:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd guess the best way to implement this would be as a Javascript gadget, something similar to Navigation popups. Then it would be available as an option to the registered users and wouldn't be forced upon everyone. Quibik (talk) 00:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
That's cool, then an optional gadget will be available to those who like this idea. It won't affect those have other solutions or those simply don't want this feature. --Quest for Truth (talk) 15:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Missing tools

Could someone please read this thread. I have some tools missing on the history page. I've asked a sys-op to delete all of my custom JS pages. But the tools still aren't there. When I log out they are there on the edit history. Please read this thread. ~~ Dr Dec (Talk) ~~ 20:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm having an epiphany. I'm betting you have selected british english as your en.wp language option. That hides many of the local system message customizations. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 23:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
You're quite right! I've changed my settings to general English and the links are there. What are the chances of making those tools available regardless of the language setting? ~~ Dr Dec (Talk) ~~ 16:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Viewing Contribs on User Subpages

Is it possible to add a link to User Contributions in the toolbox on a user's subpage? Deserted Cities (talk) 21:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this can be done with Javascript. Algebraist 21:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
That's a pretty unhelpful response; I assume that if the person knew how to write JavaScript code, then they'd already be aware that it could be used to do this. I had written some code before to do this, but it adds a tab at the top of every page rather than in the toolbox; it does appear only on user pages, though, regardless if it's a subpage or not. Simply copy the following code to Special:MyPage/monobook.js:
	if (!(wgCanonicalNamespace == 'Special'))
		var username = wgTitle.split('/')[0];
		// "User:" tabs
  	if (wgCanonicalNamespace == 'User' || wgCanonicalNamespace == 'User_talk')
			addPortletLink('p-cactions', wgServer + '/wiki/Special:Contributions/' + username, 'contribs', 'ca-contrib', 'User contributions');
Gary King (talk) 06:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


Since the software changes, mediawiki:noarticletextanon (which actually transcludes mediawiki:noarticletext) is no longer displayed to anons when seeing a non-existent page, but instead it is mediawiki:Noarticletext-nopermission, a new mediawiki page (see google for info). I created it to transclude noarticletext to avoid the default, but it could be modified to replace "create this article ..." with elements from mediawiki:Nocreatetext, "log in..." and "submit the content ...". Cenarium (talk) 02:18, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

HELP: How to change the size of font used in user page and arrange two images vertically in user infobox

< div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;">

< /div>

I have put these two codes on top and bottom of my userpage to automatically change the font of the whole userpage to Calibri but since it is too small and hard to read, I tried to make it bigger by adding this part to the code,

font-size: 12pt

but unfortunately didn't work. Can someone help me how to fix this?

Also I tried to place two images vertically in my user infobox (two images don't have the same size but I tried to equalize them) but I didn't know how. Can someone help me with this too? Thanks. JuventusGamer (talk) 14:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Note: my user infobox (shown below) has the same basic code as others.

Village pump (technical)
— Wikipedian  —
Diego, my current favorite bianconeri (left), Alessandro Del Piero, my all time favorite bianconeri (right)
Diego, my current favorite bianconeri (left), Alessandro Del Piero, my all time favorite bianconeri (right)
BornNovember 29, 1989
Country [[|]]
Height6 ft 2 in
Weight180 lbs
Education and employment
OccupationStudent, footballer
Hobbies, favourites and beliefs
PoliticsLight Greens Environmentalism

Color of visited links

{{resolved}} I have recently reinstalled Firefox 3.5.3 on my computer. Now the links within Wikipedia are changing color after I visit the linked page. I am using the "Classic" skin and in Firefox>Tools>Options>Content>Colors, I have checked "allow pages to choose their own color". Is there any setting within Wikipedia were are can turn this feature off? I would like websites in general to choose their own color, but would not like to have the links change color within Wikipedia. Is that feasable? Thanks a lot in advance! olivier (talk) 06:17, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't look like the classic skin sets a color for a:link, just for a:visited. But you can simply set one for both to make them the same. Add something like a:link, a:visited {color: #0000EC;} to User:Olivier/standard.css. --Splarka (rant) 08:08, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Link colors. --MZMcBride (talk) 08:10, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Those colors don't apply to the "Classic" skin. --Splarka (rant) 08:35, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. Splarka's method is working fine with my "Classic skin". olivier (talk) 08:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Link color override

Apparently the MW parser considers the <font> tag special, because when a <font> tag directly surrounds an <a> tag they will be turned inside-out so that it changes the color of the link-text. However this is not done for any other presentational tags, only the <font> tag (deprecated since HTML 4.01).

You can try it for various tags and attributes:

wiki-text rendered html appearance
<font color="orange">[[Foobar]]</font>
<a href="/wiki/Foobar" title="Foobar"><font color="orange">Foobar</font></a>
<span color="orange">[[Foobar]]</span>
<span><a href="/wiki/Foobar" title="Foobar">Foobar</a></span>
<font style="color:orange;">[[Foobar]]</font>
<a href="/wiki/Foobar" title="Foobar"><font style="color: orange;">Foobar</font></a>
<span style="color:orange;">[[Foobar]]</span>
<span style="color: orange;"><a href="/wiki/Foobar" title="Foobar">Foobar</a></span>
[[Foobar|<font style="color:orange;">Foobar</font>]]
<a href="/wiki/Foobar" title="Foobar"><font style="color: orange;">Foobar</font></a>
[[Foobar|<span style="color:orange;">Foobar</span>]]
<a href="/wiki/Foobar" title="Foobar"><span style="color: orange;">Foobar</span></a>

However since the link itself, the <a> element, is still blue by default, most browsers will still give the orange link text a blue underline (which looks really ugly).

Obviously the clean way to change the link color would be to add attributes directly to <a> tag, something like:

<a style="color:orange;" href="/wiki/Foobar" title="Foobar">Foobar</a>

However no combination of wiki-text will produce this result. — CharlotteWebb 13:10, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

FireFox is showing orange links for all but samples 2 and 4. Wonder if it is the parser or HTMLTidy? ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 13:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
It is Tidy. Without tidy you get the <font> on the outside. You can see a similar affect with <span><pre></pre></span> -> <pre><span></span></pre>. --Splarka (rant) 07:18, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

It is because the <span> tag outside the <a> tag is not sucked into it the way the <font> tag was. Why these should be treated differently is beyond me. Notice on line 2 the color information is completely gone. I guess the parser does sometimes remove deprecated attributes but not deprecated tags. — CharlotteWebb 13:45, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The <span> tag doesn't have attribute color (see HTML specification). So it isn't deprecated, it's invalid. Svick (talk) 13:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

But if it did exist, it would be deprecated in favor of style="color:orange;". That's beside the point however as this doesn't work either for changing the color of a link, unless we put it inside the link (which needlessly complicates the bracket notation and still leaves a blue underline, see line six). — CharlotteWebb 14:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Sample 2 doesn't work for the reason pointed out above: color is not a valid attribute of <span>. Sample 4 doesn't work because the style of <a> overrides that of the enclosing <span>. This is expected HTML behavior, and it's why the parser handles <font> as a special case to generate what the user probably intended: overriding the color style of the <a> tag. This was obviously added to the parser ages ago, before <span> became the accepted way of changing color; and a good case could be made for adding special handling for the <span> enclosing <a> tags. Elphion (talk) 14:44, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Could a "good case" be made for adding some direct way to change the attributes of the <a> tag rather than needing to add an extra layer (the hierarchical order of which the parser/tidy functions may or may not quietly invert)? — CharlotteWebb 15:11, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Really, a better solution would be to not use custom styling on links at all. Unfortunately navbox has those damn style parameters... — RockMFR 14:51, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

MiszaBot II is down. No bot archiving at ANI for two days

MiszaBot II has not been running for two days due to a problem with duplicated sections at ANI, in turn caused by Wednesday's update to MediaWiki. Nothing has been bot-archived since 14:35 UTC on 17 September 2009. As a last resort, somebody might consider switching to ClueBot for ANI, at least on a temporary basis. Recent contributions show that ClueBot III was still archiving correctly as lately as 13:39 on 19 September, so it must not have been affected by the MediaWiki update. EdJohnston (talk) 15:14, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I suspect the pywikipedia core that powers my bots was somehow affected. But I don't have the time to debug it. Something about XML encoding when trying to save a page (the original, not the archive):
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/home/misza13/pywikipedia/", line 606, in main
  File "/home/misza13/pywikipedia/", line 519, in run
  File "/home/misza13/pywikipedia/", line 391, in update
    self.Page.put(newtext, minorEdit=True, comment=summary)
  File "/home/misza13/pywikipedia/", line 1434, in put
    newPage, = sysop), sysop = sysop, botflag=botflag, maxTries=maxTries)
  File "/home/misza13/pywikipedia/", line 1466, in _putPage
    newPage, token, newToken, sysop, captcha, botflag, maxTries)
  File "/home/misza13/pywikipedia/", line 1813, in _putPageOld
  File "/home/misza13/pywikipedia/", line 5449, in has_mediawiki_message
    v = self.mediawiki_message(key)
  File "/home/misza13/pywikipedia/", line 5417, in mediawiki_message
    tree = XML(decode)
  File "<string>", line 85, in XML
SyntaxError: undefined entity &nbsp;: line 663, column 145

is the typical stack trace. Puzzles me why nbsp would be recognized but until this is resolved, I have stopped my archiving bots. Миша13 16:00, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

See this thread at pywikipedia-l, which reports 'All bots are broken.' One of the commenters in that thread says:
Fixed in r7267 by alexsh but API must be enabled in with use_api = True since xml and php output is no longer supported.
I assume that individual bot operators who use pywikipedia would have to do something to make use of this fix. EdJohnston (talk) 17:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I have updated the core, configurations and the bots are coming back up. Thanks to everyone involved. Миша13 18:13, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Turning Autoconfirmed into an explicit userright

Please see and comment at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Turning Autoconfirmed into an explicit userright. Thanks, Cenarium (talk) 01:54, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

References on userpage

An editor suggested I post my help request here: To whomever can help, I would like the Diderot and Jimmy Wales quotations on my userpage to have their references show up in a reference section at the bottom of my page, but I am for some reason not see them there. Could some please fix that? Thanks! Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 17:37, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The problem was in thank you from Benjiboi about the {{rescue}} tag. More specifically in the twice colapsed table "Articles tagged for deletion and rescue". I removed the table and it's ok now. I hope you don't mind I edited your userpage. Svick (talk) 18:07, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
No, that is fine and appreciated! :) Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 18:13, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
It seems that after the <categorytree> tag, but only with showcount=on, <references /> doesn't work properly. I created T22748. Svick (talk) 18:30, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Cool and thanks for that! Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 19:07, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
No problem. I'm glad I could help. Svick (talk) 19:15, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

References not showing

Can somebody technical have a look at User:A_Nobody page, there are two references at the top(Denis Diderot and Jimmy Wales quotes), but either are shown in the reference list. SunCreator (talk) 17:39, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

See above! SunCreator (talk) 17:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your time and help! :) Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 17:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Diff bug

{{resolved}} If <br> or return characters are removed from a revision, then &nbsp shows up in the diff instead: [11] [12] -- penubag  (talk) 06:40, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Bugzilla:20793 -- penubag  (talk) 06:48, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)That's not really a bug, as the underlying article source has been changed. That being said, I could certainly understand how it could legitimately be perceived as a bug. My recommendation is to file a bugzilla engancement "bug" about it, and hopefully someone will take the time to add the requisite logic to the diff engine in order to change the behavior.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 06:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
This is not the normal behavior I'm used to and am guessing this is the result of the recent software update. I see this as a bug because the diff reports there are spaces (&nbsp) when they don't exist. Diffs are supposed to show the difference between two revisions, not the code under the software. Also, this is really confusing to users who have no idea what &nbsp even is. -- penubag  (talk) 06:59, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Your own diff: [13] -- penubag  (talk) 07:16, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
This is a bug in WikEd User_talk:Cacycle/wikEd#visible_nbsp_in_diffs. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 10:16, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Deleted Articles

When looking in users' contributions, the contributions to deleted articles are not shown. This needs to be fixed ASAP. File a bugzilla report or somthing. (talk) 08:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

How about being more polite?
And deleted-contribs are only visible to administrators, for privacy and legal reasons. Also, if everyone could see them, the articles wouldn't really be "deleted" – would they? ╟─TreasuryTagprorogation─╢ 08:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
It would be helpful though to be able to see that an editor made an edit, even if you can't (for good reasons) see the edit itself.Nigel Ish (talk) 08:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, I don't think that the MediaWiki software makes that possible (though some external edit-counters do). Secondly, I'm not sure it is that helpful. And thirdly, often the titles of pages, and edit-summaries, contain sensitive/copyrighted information. ╟─TreasuryTagsheriff─╢ 08:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
You can see oversighted edits in the edit history, though you can't click on them. The same thing could be done with contributions to deleted articles, right? (talk) 16:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

See mediazilla:12667 "User should be able to see the list of his deleted contributions". It was recognized as useful thing, but not useful enough to actually implement it. — AlexSm 20:42, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Sinebot down?

I don't see any updates since 16 September. Related to new software?--SPhilbrickT 21:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, I even did a search for sinebot, but just now noticed the message that all bots are down--SPhilbrickT 21:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I have no idea what's going on. Someone must have changed something with the API or something. So, until I get a chance to figure it out, it stays broken. I don't have time to play pin-the-tail-on-the-bug. --slakrtalk / 20:44, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

floating table of contents

In my User:Lemmiwinks2/monobook.css I have:

  1. toc,{
float: left;

but the article Four_horsemen_of_the_apocalypse has a table at that position and the table of contents overlaps it. I have no idea what to add to prevent this from happening. Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 20:12, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

You can add clear:both; but that might cause the toc to move down considerably on many pages. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 12:29, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 18:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Blank sequence of pages in an article's history

For some reason the history of Kibbutz between the following points is blank.

from: 11:18, 8 January 2005 to: 21:27, 16 May 2005.

this includes the FA markers in {{ArticleHistory}}. Does anyone else notice this? Does anyone know why the pages are blank? Best, DVD 03:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I've noticed this sort of thing before, within a similar time frame, on different articles. The obvious speculation is that some sort of database corruption occurred at some point, but I don't know the definitive answer. The actual histories are still there though, so I don't think there's any reason to panic. It's an unfortunate problem, but it shouldn't be Earth shattering.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 04:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
This has already been brought up at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 64#Old versions of articles missing. I've just filed bug 20757 to try to get the problem fixed. Graham87 14:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Has it been fixed already? The old revisions appear (on my screen) not to be blank. — CharlotteWebb 14:40, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Those are the bookend revisions and do show; the ones between seem to be the problem. I've assigned the bug to Tim to take a peek at, since we've seem similar things before -- some of our data migration scripts have occasionally gotten confused on old storage methods and mismarked the compression type so they don't load properly. --brion (talk) 18:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Custom css

{{resolved}} Any way to get extra links on, say, the navigation toolbar? In particular I'm wanting to put in one for RandomRedirect, but if there's a general way to do it for any link that would be nice. —thedarklordtrombonator 05:17, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Use this: Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation shortcuts Gary King (talk) 05:47, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Amazing. —thedarklordtrombonator 23:26, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Image usage broken by MediaWiki upgrade

The recent MediaWiki upgrade to the English Wikipedia contained a MediaWiki change that broke templates like {{flag}} that generate images designed to be invisible to the screen readers used by visually impaired people. Formerly, usage like this:

[[Image:Flag of the United States.svg|22x20px|link=]] [[United States]]

generated an image with no alt text, which caused screen readers to silently bypass the image, as intended (because it's just decoration; all the intended info is also in the adjacent text). But now it generates "Flag of the United States.svg United States", whose image contains the unwanted alt text "Flag of the United States.svg".

The change was installed by Remember the dot (talk · contribs), so I left a note at User talk:Remember the dot #Repercussions of alt-text handling change, but that user's most recent edit says "I will be leaving very soon for a period of two years" so I'm worried that this will fall through the cracks. Does anybody happen to know who's in charge of that section of code these days? I'd like to see this one fixed. Eubulides (talk) 22:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

What's wrong with using |alt=? Algebraist 22:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Before, editors could mark purely decorative images with "|link=" but now they must remember "|link=|alt=" (both are now required). More important, English Wikipedia must have hundreds of templates and/or articles that rely on the old behavior, are now broken from a WP:ACCESSIBILITY viewpoint, and will have to be fixed by hand if this software change is permanent. (As an aside, I'm mystified as to why the change was made in the first place; ordinarily a screen reader falls back on the file name if no alt text is specified, so why should MediaWiki clutter up the HTML with another copy of the file name?) Eubulides (talk) 23:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I requested the change in this discussion at Code Review, which I found through this message on my talk page. JAWS 10 and later don't announce links to images properly if they have no alt text, even if the image has title text. Formerly they said "link graphic filename"; with JAWS 10 and later, they would've said "Link filename", which I found to be more confusing. I thought that rather than relying on the screen reader to automatically say the filename, it should be put in the alt text so screen readers have *something* to work with. Maybe a default alt text of "Missing alt text" or even "Image link" would be appropriate.
I didn't think of the case where the image doesn't contain a link; that behaviour should be reverted back to the way it was previously because the current setup is annoying when images are unlinked. I was going to bring that issue up, but you beat me to it. I'll drop a note at the above-linked Code Review page, as well as Simetrical's talk page, since he works with accessibility issues. Graham87 10:40, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
This bug report might be related. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Image update problem

I've tried to update File:Long_leg_hair.jpg with a better version but I get an error saying that there is a file with that name on commons but there isn't. I've tried it twice and it does the same thing. Is this just temporary because of the software update? Smartse (talk) 12:36, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Probably bugzilla:20677TheDJ (talkcontribs) 13:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I've been having this problem as well for over a day now and it's getting seriously annoying – this has blocked me from uploading quite a few images. Quibik (talk) 14:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Ok, at least someones is on the case then. Thanks for you help. Smartse (talk) 14:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Haven't seen the warning about files on commons, but I am seeing a 'failed to calculate hash' warning which was also reported on that bug, which should help us narrow down at least part of it. Michael's poking at it but hasn't been able to reproduce all the problems yet. --brion (talk) 18:59, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Image upload problem

I'm trying to upload a new image for File:Phantasy Star Portable 2 Cover.jpg, but anyway I try to, I get:

Upload warning

A file with this name exists at the Wikimedia Commons. You can:

*go back and upload this file to Wikipedia using a different name.
*upload it to Commons, if your intent is to replace the image that already exists with a better version.


There is no image named this on Commons, and it shouldn't be. Is there something wrong? MrKIA11 (talk) 18:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

See #Image update problem above. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 18:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I was finally able to upload the file. MrKIA11 (talk) 23:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Can't reduce an image resolution

I noticed File:SuckerShirtFinalFlat.jpg, which is at excessively high resolution for a fair-use logo. So, I download it, reduce resolution, and attempt to re-upload by clicking the "upload a new version of this image" link at the file page. I get an error message telling me "A file with this name exists at the Wikimedia Commons. You can: * go back and upload this file to Wikipedia using a different name. * upload it to Commons, if your intent is to replace the image that already exists with a better version. ". There is no such image at Commons. —Kww(talk) 01:29, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

See #Image update problem above.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 01:35, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Uploading new image version

I am trying to upload new versions of the above images. When I do so, an error message pops up saying that the files exist on Wikimedia Commons and that I should upload there instead. When I go to Commons, the files never come up in searches, and I'm pretty sure they were never uploaded there in the first place. Any ideas? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 18:50, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

See #Image_update_problem section above. Ruslik_Zero 19:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

New supages

Resolved: Config was changed in June

Did more subpages get enabled in this last update, or did I miss it before? Specifically Help and Help talk. There was a request to enable subpages in several namespaces back in April. I didn't see it in the release notes. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 19:45, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Enabling / disabling subpages is handled by shell users in the local settings, and as such would be uncorrelated with the main software updates. Whether anything has changed, I don't know. Dragons flight (talk) 19:50, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Technically it was enable, but there was a MediaWiki bug, see the discussion. Anyway, they are enabled; was just wondering if it was in this update. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 00:51, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Bugzilla:18437#c1. So what happened was, the customizations on WMF for namespaces with subpages define the entire array, and en.wp's probably has been there since before that namespace existed, so Help_talk was not given subpages since it was overwrit. So on June 1st it seems Rob simply disabled the en.wp line so that it used the defaults (which include both Help_talk and Help). --Splarka (rant) 07:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)


Is it broken? Stuff seems to never update its cats till it's edited. Rich Farmbrough, 22:25, 21 September 2009 (UTC).

Special:Statistics seems to show a massive backlog for the job queue; I've been checking it on and of all day, and I haven't seen it below 20,000. I'm guessing that it has everything in the backlog, but just hasn't gotten to it yet. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 23:11, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
well it used to go over a million without any bother.It was just a few hours then. Oh well. we will see tomorrow. Rich Farmbrough, 02:21, 22 September 2009 (UTC).

Repetitions in edit screen

As many probably noticed, the current version of edit screen repeats a part of the Terms of Use: the notification about editing, usage and redistribution is mentioned twice in small letters and under the bold hat below, as well as the link to the Terms. I think this should be fixed in the nearest future by having just a single relevant grasp from TuU. The present tautology of notifications seems quite onerous, if not annoying. Brand[t] 00:33, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Footnotes update

The cite software has been updated to allow definition of references within the reference list. See Wikipedia talk:Footnotes#cite.php update. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 13:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

This looks very interesting. I just wish cite.php was less like html/xml and more like wikicode. --Apoc2400 (talk) 15:32, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Couldn't a template be made that basically encloses the xhtml tags within a wiki template? So you could use something like {{ref|name=Foo|(content)}} and then have the template itself contain <ref {{#if:{{{name|}}}|name="{{{name}}}"|}}>{{#if:{{{1|}}}|{{{1}}}|}}</ref> ? Heck, it could also enclose citation templates in it, so that instead of the unnamed parameter (which would contain a template like {{cite web}}, you could just use all the parameters of {{citation}} and then this template would pass them through to create a ref. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 15:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm all for that. The main holdup though is that the {{ref}} template already exists, and is (still!) used for non-cite.php references. There are a lot of people who learned to do citations without cite.php, and they don't seem to want to change.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 16:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Well, yes. 'Twas just a placeholder name. We could always just move the current template and have a bot rename all usages. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 16:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
There are literally thousands of {{ref}} uses, and I don't see those editors who still use it regularly as being appreciative or supportive of a change. If you want to float a proposal about doing so though, I'll certainly support you (I'm just guessing that it'll float like a lead balloon, is all). One of the main tasks that my bot is (eventually) going to be used for is to clean up and organize refs, so this kind of thing is right in my bailiwick.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 16:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Do you have a better idea for a name? I'm completely open to suggesstions. {{Cite}}, perhaps? That wouldn't be nearly as controversial; a bot would just need to bypass the redirects. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 16:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I believe that this new extension of cite.php finally replicates the single most attractive feature of the{{ref}}/{{note}} system - that it keeps the citation information from cluttering the body of the article. But there might remain differences of opinion about other disparities in how the two systems function. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Try {{#tag:ref|Whatever}}. — Werdna • talk 17:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

(e/c)Are there other reasons for doing this other than making ref tags more like templates? Using multiple systems like this breaks consistency between articles here and between other wikis, makes things harder to learn, and will likely also break any script or bot that works with or parses references. References are already one of the biggest bottlenecks in terms of parsing time due to templates like {{citation}} being so complicated and large articles having dozens of refs. Increasing the complexity will just make it even worse. Mr.Z-man 17:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The problem, I think, is that new users need to figure out two ways of formatting things... HTML-style and wiki-style. Only one should really be used, IMO, although for experience editors it doesn't really matter. It's just trying to get used to it for new users. I know that this is probably never going to happen because of parsing issues, breaking tools, etc.; I just thought I'd toss it out there as something which could be done. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 17:37, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
It would be one thing if we switched to a template-based system, and then converted all existing uses to it (though we would still be inconsistent with other wikis), but using multiple systems seems like it would just be more confusing (and more likely to break things) than one "non-standard" system. When I started on Wikipedia, I learned how to do most things by example, from looking at other articles, only referring to guidelines and help pages when examples weren't clear. Mr.Z-man 17:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Ditto. I think it will take a while before list-defined references take off; heck, a lot of editors are still not aware of the groups feature. We need to document use at Help:Footnotes and include some guidelines. I will do some more testing on this and will update features on the help page as I discover them. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 17:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Exactly. I wanted to mention a couple of relevant points here, however.
  • First, cite.php is an extension, and is therefore already non-standard (although, it's use is so widespread now that pointing out that it's "non-standard" admittedly seems strange).
  • Prior to the installation of cite.php people used {{ref}}, which is why that template already exists. I'm not sure if it's due to a lack of motivation or actual resistance, but it appears that there is support for retaining the "pre-cite.php" referencing.
  • In the vast majority of areas we already prefer templates over xHTML tags, and the main reasons to do so are ease of use, maintainability, and standardization.
Personally, I wouldn't have any issue with folding <ref></ref> tag use into {{ref}} and even {{Citation/core}}, which would require removing the <ref> and </ref> tags from around the majority of existing references. It's a large migration project, but I think that it would be helpful to most people, and it would certainly simplify the source wikitext in the vast majority of articles. As for the learning curve, once the conversion started I think that people would catch on fairly quickly. There would need to be a specific migration period that should last a while (2 weeks would be the minimum, I would think), but it could be done.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 18:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Nothing is stopping us from making the templates and let those who want to try it. I don't think we should organize a mass migration unless the new type is well-proven and well-liked. --Apoc2400 (talk) 19:11, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Both {{ref}} and {{Citation}} are already in use, and are in such widespread use that their fully edit protected, so there's no possible way to boldly experiment.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 19:45, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
We could use {{ref2}} or {{cite2}} or come up with something else while testing. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I updated Arthur Rudolph to use list-defined references as an example. As to {{ref}}— most current uses could be replaced by the groups feature of cite.php. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 19:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Agreed, they could be, and I personally think that they should be, but someone needs to go and create consensus to change them.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 19:45, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
How about we try it for a while before mass-changing? --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
It appears that this

I suspect that the xml-like syntax has not been replaced with a template yet because putting the other citation templates inside gets ugly: {{ref|{{cite book|author=...}}}}. With the new list-defined references that is no longer a problem. If we are going to puish for defining references at the end anyway, may I suggest an even shorter syntax in the body text:

  • {{ref|Smith2006}}

which would be the same as <ref name="Smith2006" />. This would make article text very readable once again. {{ref}} may have to be replaced with whatever template name we can aquire for this. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I think list-defined refs will make the body more readable for the casual editor and shorter syntax is always nice if it's understandable. I don't want to jump the gun on implementation, but may I also suggest a script to convert an article's refs into list-defined refs. I can see it becoming very useful if list-defined become the preferred method to cite. —Ost (talk) 20:11, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Wow. Apparently I need some education as well. What is the preferred way to do citations? Is Help:Footnotes up-to-date? I'm curious if I'm doing it correctly. I took a bit of a hiatus from editing and just now started again and learned about the group feature yesterday.↔NMajdantalk 20:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

We are discussing new ways. The method described in Help:Footnotes is the current standard. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:11, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

What is would really want is <<Smith2006>>. I think references are important enough to deserve their own wiki syntax. That needs code changes of course. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I think we need a more centralized discussion page for improvements to the footnotes system with links to the myriad of previous discussions. Much of this seems familiar, and indeed the recent change is due to a series of discussions that I finger at the moment. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 20:32, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, isn't the usability project working on this too? Perhaps the new format we just got came from there. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
No, I implemented this one. Dragons flight (talk) 21:59, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Geez... OK, hang on, let's slow down a bit. The "list-type references" came from a proposal originally made here, if I remember correctly. There have been several proposals to do similar things I'm sure, but someone finally motivated a developer to add in the list-type reference code. Anyway, references already have their own code, which is defined by the cite.php extension, and is (essentially) what we're talking about here. I don't think that creating {{ref2}}, {{Citation2}}, and the like, would be helpful in the long run because it would simply complicate matters even more (we would then be adding a third method rather then simplifying/standardizing on one method). As for a more centralized discusison, I can't imagine a more central place to discuss this. WP:FOOTNOTE is certainly not more central then the Village pump (although, we should move this to Wikipedia:Village Pump (proposals) if we're actually going to make this a change proposal). We could easily add an RFC to this and/or listing it on {{cent}}. It's probably a bit early for that though, since we're not even sure what the proposal is.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 20:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I meant we need a list of previous discussions— there have been so many that there are a lot of repeated ideas.
The simplest way to do this is to change {{citation/core}} add a parameter, let's call it |refname= that if defined, wraps the citation in <ref name=refname></ref>. Thus it is backward compatible as it only invokes the new feature if the parameter is defined. We could then create a template named redef for the inline cite. Frankly, I don't see any need to update {{ref}}. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 02:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

A potential issue with the proposals above to hide the <ref> within a template is that it will make it much more difficult for syntax highlighters and other tools that look at the page's wikitext to determine what is a reference and what is not. Instead of just searching for <ref> and {{#tag:ref}}, they'll also have to keep track of every random template people do this with. Anomie 13:26, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I have been coming towards that point of view as well. Checklinks and refTools don't work with list-defined references— I have alerted their owners and hopefully we can get some updates for these valuable tools. I don't see how any tool could pull a reference if it is buried in a template. I did a proof of concept to show that it works, but I think it is more trouble than it is worth. I did a fix for another editor who was updating an article to LDR and found the problem by searching for the <ref> tag. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 13:48, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the XML-like syntax is much nicer, and much more readable, and much easier to parse, than template syntax. Why do we want to use the horrific template syntax instead?

Advantages of XML syntax:

  • Matched opening and closing tags make it easier to see where a particular block ends and begins.
  • Familiar to people who are used to programming with the web.
  • Only slightly less brief.
  • More natural method of specifying arguments.
  • Fewer delimiter collisions (no need for ugly stuff like {{!}} and 1=).


  • Inconsistent with templates.

Werdna • talk 14:20, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

For those of us who are familiar with HTML/XML you're absolutely correct. I've talked to several newer editors who aren't, however, and their always slightly confused by it at first. for those editors, the "ugly stuff" seems preferable, simply for consistency/ease of use.
Personally, I'm basically fine with things the way they are. It would be nice to just use {{Cite web|group=Note|name=Example|url=http;//|title=example}} instead of <ref group=Note name=example>{{Cite web|url=http;//|title=example}}</ref>, is all. It looks a lot neater in article source, as well.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 15:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
This is a wiki. It should use wikicode. Yes XML is "cool" you can show off your fast typing skills or auto-complete software - but wiki is supposed to be quick. And XML can be horrendously long, because you always end up with another level of enclosing tags. I expect one day to see <character>a</character> nested in <word> tags ...
Loose weight and simplicate. I believe David Chapman of Lotus? Rich Farmbrough, 22:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC).
RE: "Stuffing this all into templates." If this is a direction you think should be pursued, {{sfn}} already implements some of the functionality you are wishing for. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 03:45, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Using a template {{ref}} instead of <ref> for a ref with opening and closing tags saves all of 5 characters. For something like <ref name='Foo'/>, template syntax - {{ref|name=Foo}} - saves a whole 1 character. There's simplifying, and then there's excessive optimization, and change for the sake of change. Mr.Z-man 04:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Wrong interwiki link for WP:Sandbox

Resolved: Will get an experienced sysop to correct it. decltype (talk) 12:26, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

The sandbox' iw link to the nn.wikipedia is incorrect (should be "Wikipedia:Sandkasse", not "Wikipedia:Sankasse"). Is there any way to correct this? Thanks, decltype (talk) 10:57, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Yup, interwiki links are just added like categories, so the current interwiki link looks like [[nn:Wikipedia:Sankasse]], just change it to [[nn:Wikipedia:Sandkasse]]. Although you should note that the current interwiki links for the the sandbox are in the heading template: Template:Please leave this line alone (sandbox heading), and it is fully protected, which shouldn't be aproblem for you :) - Kingpin13 (talk) 11:04, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Ahh, but of course! I didn't realize it was in the template, I thought perhaps it was a special case. Thanks! decltype (talk) 12:26, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I would argue that the parts containing the interwiki links should not be fully protected. Under normal circumstances, bots would update all interwikis as needed, and generally make fewer spelling errors. It is impractical for us to require admin intervention every time the editors of some new project decide to add a sandbox page.

{{pro-tip}} if we like this idea but are still worried about high-visibility vandalism, we could do something like this:

<div style="display:none;">
{{unprotected sub-template containing interwiki links for the sandbox}}

The interwiki stuff would still be visible as these links (as with categories) render outside the content area, but plain text like "JOHN SUCKS" would remain hidden. — CharlotteWebb 14:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Until someone vandalized it with </div>JOHN SUCKS!<div>. Perhaps you mean high-visibility testing. --Splarka (rant) 04:44, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Help Generating List

Hello. I was trying to generate a list of all the edits that preceded VoaBOTII's Edits. I can't find any easy way to do this. Can someone help me? Tim1357 (talk) 00:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know of an easy way to do it on the site, but it can be done with a query on the Toolserver database. tools:~alexz/voabot.htm is the edits immediately before VoABot's last 500 edits, excluding user talk edits. Let me know if you want a longer list, more information, different format, etc. Mr.Z-man 02:34, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks! I was going to offer this list to User:Crispy1989 for use in training his new Cluebot (which needs a LOT of examples of vandalism). Im going to parse the list for edits that User:VoaBOTII made against vandalism (it doesn't just do vandalism, therefore i need to remove the non-vandalism reverts). I think 500 is good to start off. But if it turns out that User:Crispy1989 wants them, then I might have to ask you to give me more. Thanks for your help! Tim1357 (talk) 03:04, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

External links no longer showing URL

Probably the same updates to MediaWiki that caused the alt/title tag problem in images, is also responsible for external link no longer showing the URL in hints; in IE, they do not even show up in the status bar anymore. This is quite serious, as I'd like to know where I'm going before I click on an external link. EdokterTalk 16:57, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

It works fine for me in the Monobook skin. The code looks fine, too; it hasn't even changed. Gary King (talk) 20:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
I can confirm that the external link is no longer duplicated in the title attribute (the tooltip) in all skins. This is bad for full screened users. — Dispenser 01:14, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I see that the title attribute is missing, but both IE 8.0 and Firefox 3.5 still show the destination in the status bar. Which browser are you concerned about? Dragons flight (talk) 01:49, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
IE6. EdokterTalk 00:22, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

An odd disparity

Category:Articles to be merged from October 2007 lists only one article, yet Wikipedia:Proposed mergers/Log/October 2007, which is part of a series of backlogs bot-generated from Category:Merge by month, lists many more. What's the deal with that? @harej 22:13, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Probably due to the Help:Job queue. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 22:20, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
You have a good point. But how recently-tagged are articles which have been labeled with merge tags since 2007? @harej 22:23, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I am here to post about the job queue! But is Animal language in the queue? seems unlikely It is still odd though, the upgrade seems to have broken quite a lot. Wikia seemrd to do some upgrades that broke stuff too. ~~
Incidentally, it just got added to the category. I think there is a backlog of stuff that will be added now that I fixed a quirk in {{merge}}. @harej 22:28, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes and no. I null edited that page. But the {{Merge}} thing took them out and now they will have to queue to get back in. Thanks for fixing that. Rich Farmbrough, 22:29, 21 September 2009 (UTC).
To clarify, are you being sarcastic? (It's okay if you are). @harej 23:53, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
No I thought you fixed my bug. Rich Farmbrough, 10:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC).
Ah, that's right. In other words, you're saying your change to the template kicked the articles out of the category. You're welcome! @harej 11:20, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Cologne Blue User Script failure

Cologneblue.js processing of user scripts has recently broken for me in Firefox 3.5. Specifically, addOnloadHook(func) no longer works in a user script for Cologne Blue, though it continues to work for Monobook. The hook function is never called.

The failure point traces to the onloadFuncts array, which contains entries loaded from addOnloadHook(), and has as its first function entry the function liveClock(). Unfortunately, liveClock() errors out under Cologne Blue for my machine and always has, due to liveClock.node being a null value. This liveClock() failure didn't used to be a problem. Now it is, since it stops further JavaScript processing, including my script's hook function (which here lives at the tenth subscript in the onloadFuncts array).

I can hack around the problem in a user script by forcing a valid function where the liveClock() hook lived by adding the line:

onloadFuncts[0] = function() { return; }

to the user script, but this is a crude and rude hack. Any idea of a better workaround or a fix? -- Michael Devore (talk) 04:27, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Remove whatever userscript is adding the liveClock() function? I don't think that's part of any of the global scripts. Mr.Z-man 04:45, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Hmm, I only use one script so it's not coming from me. And it's loaded at [0], so it's loaded earliest. -- Michael Devore (talk) 04:47, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
(Also, MonoBook has a live clock, while Cologne Blue does not, so I'm pretty sure it's WP functionality.) -- Michael Devore (talk) 05:00, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
There's a live clock in the gadgets section of your preferences. Is that the one you're talking about? Graham87 08:54, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I have fixed the gadget to no longer generate errors, but it still doesn't work for the cologneblue skin (but there are many scripts that don't work in cologneblue). —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:55, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Ahh, it's a gadget issue, I didn't think about that. I don't care if that particular gadget works when Cologne Blue skin is selected, but don't want the gadget breaking script processing if enabled for the user, since it's a universal setting separate from skin setting. Thanks. -- Michael Devore (talk) 18:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

External links no longer showing URL

Probably the same updates to MediaWiki that caused the alt/title tag problem in images, is also responsible for external link no longer showing the URL in hints; in IE, they do not even show up in the status bar anymore. This is quite serious, as I'd like to know where I'm going before I click on an external link. EdokterTalk 16:57, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

It works fine for me in the Monobook skin. The code looks fine, too; it hasn't even changed. Gary King (talk) 20:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
I can confirm that the external link is no longer duplicated in the title attribute (the tooltip) in all skins. This is bad for full screened users. — Dispenser 01:14, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I see that the title attribute is missing, but both IE 8.0 and Firefox 3.5 still show the destination in the status bar. Which browser are you concerned about? Dragons flight (talk) 01:49, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
IE6. EdokterTalk 00:22, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

An odd disparity

Category:Articles to be merged from October 2007 lists only one article, yet Wikipedia:Proposed mergers/Log/October 2007, which is part of a series of backlogs bot-generated from Category:Merge by month, lists many more. What's the deal with that? @harej 22:13, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Probably due to the Help:Job queue. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 22:20, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
You have a good point. But how recently-tagged are articles which have been labeled with merge tags since 2007? @harej 22:23, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I am here to post about the job queue! But is Animal language in the queue? seems unlikely It is still odd though, the upgrade seems to have broken quite a lot. Wikia seemrd to do some upgrades that broke stuff too. ~~
Incidentally, it just got added to the category. I think there is a backlog of stuff that will be added now that I fixed a quirk in {{merge}}. @harej 22:28, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes and no. I null edited that page. But the {{Merge}} thing took them out and now they will have to queue to get back in. Thanks for fixing that. Rich Farmbrough, 22:29, 21 September 2009 (UTC).
To clarify, are you being sarcastic? (It's okay if you are). @harej 23:53, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
No I thought you fixed my bug. Rich Farmbrough, 10:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC).
Ah, that's right. In other words, you're saying your change to the template kicked the articles out of the category. You're welcome! @harej 11:20, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Cologne Blue User Script failure

Cologneblue.js processing of user scripts has recently broken for me in Firefox 3.5. Specifically, addOnloadHook(func) no longer works in a user script for Cologne Blue, though it continues to work for Monobook. The hook function is never called.

The failure point traces to the onloadFuncts array, which contains entries loaded from addOnloadHook(), and has as its first function entry the function liveClock(). Unfortunately, liveClock() errors out under Cologne Blue for my machine and always has, due to liveClock.node being a null value. This liveClock() failure didn't used to be a problem. Now it is, since it stops further JavaScript processing, including my script's hook function (which here lives at the tenth subscript in the onloadFuncts array).

I can hack around the problem in a user script by forcing a valid function where the liveClock() hook lived by adding the line:

onloadFuncts[0] = function() { return; }

to the user script, but this is a crude and rude hack. Any idea of a better workaround or a fix? -- Michael Devore (talk) 04:27, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Remove whatever userscript is adding the liveClock() function? I don't think that's part of any of the global scripts. Mr.Z-man 04:45, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Hmm, I only use one script so it's not coming from me. And it's loaded at [0], so it's loaded earliest. -- Michael Devore (talk) 04:47, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
(Also, MonoBook has a live clock, while Cologne Blue does not, so I'm pretty sure it's WP functionality.) -- Michael Devore (talk) 05:00, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
There's a live clock in the gadgets section of your preferences. Is that the one you're talking about? Graham87 08:54, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I have fixed the gadget to no longer generate errors, but it still doesn't work for the cologneblue skin (but there are many scripts that don't work in cologneblue). —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:55, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Ahh, it's a gadget issue, I didn't think about that. I don't care if that particular gadget works when Cologne Blue skin is selected, but don't want the gadget breaking script processing if enabled for the user, since it's a universal setting separate from skin setting. Thanks. -- Michael Devore (talk) 18:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Did Monobook change?

All of a sudden I'm getting colored backgrounds everywhere. I want my white backgrounds back! The new background colors make things hard to read. Elphion (talk) 08:12, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Monobook did not change, and I see that User:Elphion/monobook.css is empty. Did you perhaps click "Try Beta" or did you change the skin to another option? hmwith 14:35, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I did not change the skin. I did click on "Try Beta", but did not click the implementation button there. (Color changes weren't advertised in the "What's improved" blurb there anyway.) I can't swear the colors weren't there before (and I'm not talking dark colors, just dark enough to make the text look muddy), but having noticed them I am now constantly aware of them. I now see them in IE as well (which I don't usually use and never sign in with). How hard would it be to modify the CSS to make the basic tab background white for content, even beyond the main space? I tried * {background-color:white} but of course that wiped out too much (but conversely did not hit elements with more complex combinations of ids and styles). Elphion (talk) 15:18, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The local stylesheets on have been putting lightly colored backgrounds on non-main namespaces in Monobook for several years. They are pretty light, though, so you may have not noticed them before -- some LCD monitors for instance won't even show the difference between the light blue and white if you have the brightness and contrast set relatively high.
You'll see the specs for this at the top of MediaWiki:Monobook.css in the "light blue section". You can copy-and-paste those bits back to your personal monobook.css and override them back to white if you like. --brion (talk) 18:49, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. My guess is that nothing has changed, and that my eyes were just tired. Sorry for the false alarm. I'm still amazed though at how much difference even very light background colors can make. Elphion (talk) 15:28, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Image move re-enabled

Resolved: For already-affected files, edit the redirect (not null-edit) or wait 24 hrs for cache to expire

For those who had not yet noted. As of today, it is again possible for sysops/administrators to move files and their corresponding pages, without having to reupload the images. Hopefully this time no bugs will pop up, but if you see any weird or unexpected behavior, please report it. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 23:02, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Awesome! –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 23:10, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
It didn't work. :( I tried moving File:00000362.jpg to File:Flowers of Shanghai film cover.jpg... the image was moved OK, but the redirect didn't work and I had to manually change the on-page link to the image. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 23:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Brion is looking into it. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 23:52, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
It's a bug where the redirect information gets cached incorrectly immediately after the rename. As a temporary workaround, you can edit the redirect page -- not a null edit, but add some text afterwards. This'll rebuild the image redirect cache entry for the page and the redirected image will start working again.
Michael Dale and I are taking a peek to see if we can figure out how the bad entries are getting in... it seems consistent here but isn't happening on our offline test environments yet. --brion (talk) 00:26, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I've installed a temporary quick fix to re-clear the bad entry from the cache at the end of Special:Movepage. The cache was being polluted during the display of the post-move success text, which on en.wikipedia is pulling in a direct link to the original title... which then reads the redirect state from slave servers which have not been updated with the rename yet. Any remaining bad cache entries will expire within 24 hours (pages using them can then be re-rendered successfully), or you can do the edit-the-redirect trick to clear them sooner. --brion (talk) 00:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Great. Do we have a guideline on dealing with the resulting redirects? Cause that make it a pain to figure where the image is used and if the backlinks are valid. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 01:09, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

P.S. For those who want to work on this. See Category:Image_renaming and I there is this userscript by Splarka, that makes it easier to do the work, because it removes the {{rename media}} template for you. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:50, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Interesting effect

This is a case of a Commons image with a local en.wp page. The local page contains a category, but this could also be a Featured image tag or something of course. After the file on Commons is moved, the following problems arise

These are important side effects that we will have to deal with. Some can be fixed, but others probably will require botwork to cleanup. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 15:28, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

All these issues are bugs in the File redirects code apparently. They also exist independent of wether or not there the local page is still there. The other issues that is left, is that Commons moves will cause featured article and DYK banners to go broken. We might want to have a bot that checks for this sort of problem. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 15:50, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
If the English description page is moved manually to the new title everything begins to work. This is a limited problem. Ruslik_Zero 10:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Trying to insert content into BBC article

Or more specifically, to Wikipedia:Help desk#Trying to insert content into BBC article, which will eventually be archived at Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2009 September 22#Trying to insert content into BBC article. Graham87 06:18, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Policy on checking other editors wikipedia emails

I know it is possible for an editor to check when editors email each other using wikipedia, but where is the policy on this? Ikip (talk) 19:10, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not aware of a policy that directly addresses it. The message when you send one lays the important part out: A private log of this action will be retained for the purpose of preventing abuse, and can be viewed by certain privileged users. This log does not identify the recipient, title, or contents of the e-mail. In cases of serious abuse, Wikimedia server administrators can verify the recipient account." By implication, you would have to demonstrate to a checkuser that there was reason to suspect abuse using the e-mail function, and he, in turn, would then have to convince a Wikimedia server operator to reveal the names of the recipients. If the question underlying this is "can editors organizing an RFC/U communicate with each other using the e-mail function?" then the answer is that I'm not aware of any policy or guideline prohibiting that, and believe it to be normal. The policy pump is probably a better place to ask.—Kww(talk) 19:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
thank you kww. Ikip (talk) 19:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, it's not possible to tell after the fact the recipient / subject / contents of an e-mail sent through that interface, even for people with shell access to the servers. — Werdna • talk 12:15, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

You'd probably need root access to look in the system mail logs. -Steve Sanbeg (talk) 17:29, 23 September 2009 (UTC)


I'm gettign quite a lot of 504 gateway timeout errors. Anyone else? Rich Farmbrough, 12:25, 23 September 2009 (UTC).

Are you getting them, or is Smackbot? If it's smackbot, there may be some API.php throttling going on.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 16:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

cite error in user space

I am getting "cite error" messages on pages in my user space. I thought this was not supposed to be turned on in user space, has there been a recent change and is there a "magic word" or something to turn it off? SpinningSpark 19:27, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Template_talk:Broken_ref#Broken_refs_on_user_pages and Wikipedia:VPR#Unhiding_reference_errors_on_User-namespace_pages. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 19:33, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Add {{reflist}} to show the reference list or {{reflisthide}} to hide the reference list. Add it to the bottom of the page, ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 20:16, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Detecting redirect pages

Is there a way to determine if a page is a redirect page from within a template? Is there a parser function for example?

{{#ifexists: . . .}} lets one check if a page exists (and, for example, avoid unnecessary red links), but when having templates link to existing pages I would pefere to avoid linking to a redirect page. I would rather link to the actual page.

Alternatively, is there a way of asking, for example, for the resolved redirect, that is, for example {{#resolve: 'name of page'}} returning the redirected-to page if the 'name of page' is a redirect page?

Peet Ern (talk) 08:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Currently there is no way to do this. Ruslik_Zero 16:12, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Peet Ern (talk) 09:03, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
One big issue to keep in mind here would be WP:NOTBROKEN, which probably explains the lack of such a parser function. Of course, it depends on what links are being discussed, as links in navigational templates should show up as bold on the pages that they link to.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 17:41, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
WP:NOTBROKEN does not really apply because I have the choice of defining and picking the better link in each case. So if the context is not improved by the redirect it would bebtter for me to pick the non redirect. But thanks anyway. I had not come across this wikitip before. Peet Ern (talk) 09:03, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
It may not be what you want exactly, but there are a few scripts available which will highlight any redirects on a given page. PC78 (talk) 02:44, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

"Error: too many #time calls"

See List of Super Proton Synchrotron experiments#UA experiments. I had a pretty table, and now it's all uglified! Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 00:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Break it into more sub pages (one page for each table seems obvious). The current page is taking too long to render regardless, which is the reason why only so many tags will be rendered by the parsing engine in the first place. Since you're definitely running into a technical barrier, no one should seriously oppose a move to more pages, and the size of the tables makes the resultant subpages large enough to justify their existence.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 00:45, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually the individual tables (NA and WA tables) still break the limit on their own, so that's not a good solution either. Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 00:51, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
sub-sub tables on the individual pages, then. I'm sorry, but that's really the only resonable solution that will be available as far as I can tell. As I mentioned above, there is a real, and important, technical barrier to removing the actual restriction that you are encountering here. In this instance the best course of action is to adapt to the limitations of the software.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 01:03, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
actually the best thing to do is not use the template that calls #time. the limit is there for a reason. right now its got a 22.5 seconds to render which is just too high. βcommand 01:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

(uninindent) I was using {{dts}}. I found a work around with {{SortKey}}. Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 01:24, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Subst the dts calls. That information is essentially static, so there is no reason to force the parser to evaluate it every time. Most parser limits can be avoided by substituting the rendered result for templated wikicode. This reduces the ease of future editing in exchange for being nicer to the parser. Dragons flight (talk) 01:26, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Articles moved and thereby lost

A number of days ago I attempted to perform the following moves:

For purposes of this thread, we can ignore why the moves were performed or if they were justified or not.
After the moves were performed, the content of the articles disappeared. It was removed from the old article titles but the text was not moved to the new destinations. I have admin tools and I've fiddled around and tried to find where they have gone, but I am perplexed. If you go to Category:Bilateral relations of Peru, there is a link to blue link to Holy See – Peru relations, but when it is clicked on it does not exist.
Does anyone know what could possibly be going on here and/or how to get the text back? (I know we can probably get copies of the text of the articles from google cache, but it would be a real pain to re-code all the references, etc.) Thanks, Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:51, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

bugzilla:20741. — RockMFR 02:03, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I was wondering if it should go there. Glad to see it's been raised. Thanks. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Upload MIDI

Resolved: This false positive in upload checks has since been removed

I raised this at Commons, but only got one baffling response.

My question: "I'm trying to upload a MIDI file I made. In IE8 and FF 3.5 this ends with the message "This file contains HTML or script code that may be erroneously interpreted by a web browser." I have searched and for that string and only found it regarding instances of SVG files. How can I find out what causes that message with a MIDI file, and how can I avoid it?"
Response: :It probably has html embedded in a comment. Platonides (talk) 22:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
My response: I've never heard of any such thing. A MIDI file is a binary file and content should not be interpreted, not as HTML or anything else, other than as MIDI instructions. There are some text elements in a MIDI file, like track names and composition title, but that's well within the MIDI specifications, and none of them contain anything resembling HTML. Previous MIDI files I uploaded contained those text elements, too. The file can currently be inspected at (13,635 byes, 3:05 minutes). For me, it opens and plays from there as expected in IE8 and FF 3.5.

I have also attempted to upload that file here at, with the same result, i.e. the above error message. Where do I go from here? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:07, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Whenever a file is uploaded, a scan is done to try to guess if the file contains code that might be executed by web browsers. Some sort of test like this is necessary to prevent uploaded images from being used to attack people's computers. Your file is, unfortunately, coming up as a false positive under this scan. I looked briefly but I don't have time to find out exactly which part of the scan (in UploadBase.php) is being tripped. You should file a bug report at, so that a developer can investigate the situation and fix the scan. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:19, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
It is because it contains "<A" in the first 1024 bytes. At least I think so, changing it to "<B" let it upload fine (and corrupted it of course): testwiki:File:Maid.mid. --Splarka (rant) 18:53, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I checked the code, and that will do it. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Thank you very much for that nice piece of detective work. BTW, the piece didn't get corrupted by your change, just slightly modified: you changed a "note off" event for an F5 note late in bar 2 to F5 (for which there was no previous "note on" event), so a F5 kept sounding until another "note off" event for that note occorred in bar 7; given the decay for a piano sound (and the flurry of notes anyway), that didn't matter much. One could also change the preceding value of 3Cx (<) to 3Dx (=) which would stretch the piece at that point by 1 MIDI tick.
Off to learn how to submit a bug report. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:52, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Eh, I did what now? It's all greek to me (music that is). --Splarka (rant) 07:56, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
This check got fixed the other day; the file should upload fine now. --brion (talk) 23:56, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

New wikitext syntax and 'bots

If you've started to use the new <references></references> syntax, you'll no doubt be hitting problems with people who use AWB, including 'bots such as SmackBot (talk · contribs). AWB is currently broken, and damages articles using the new syntax (example). There's an AWB bug report at Wikipedia talk:AutoWikiBrowser/Bugs#Inserts Reflist when article contains <references> tags.

See the wikitext of English Defence League for the new syntax, if you haven't seen this already. Note the ordering (of the wikitext) in the "References" section in particular for one convenient thing (for editors) that this new syntax allows. Uncle G (talk) 03:00, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

{{Reflist}} has been update to the new feature. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 10:24, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
User:AnomieBOT broke an article I was working on List of Oklahoma Sooners in the NFL Draft, but the bot has since been fixed. There is definitely an adjustment period that we'll have to work through for some a big change.↔NMajdantalk 12:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Project banner help


wp:ships has decided to discontinue using importance ratings on our project banner. I posted a notice here about a week ago and the issue is still open. Any help on this would be appreciated. --Brad (talk) 19:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

 Done Happymelon 20:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Contributions text clash

At reduced window widths, the text "Javascript-enhanced contributions... " from MediaWiki:Gadget-contribsrange.js is getting mangled underneath MediaWiki:Sp-contributions-explain. Anyone know how to fix without destroying the world? OrangeDog (talk • edits) 05:26, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Reduced window widths can make a mess of any page on Wikipedia or other site. It's impossible to have a functional, well-designed layout that will look perfect on every resolution and very small window sizes. hmwith 23:27, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, but they can at least be made to wrap around each other, or placed more out of each other's way. It doesn't take much to mangle this example, just using a non-widescreen display does it for me. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 00:17, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

No logs for user

Resolved: Some users predate user creation log

I was curious why popups showed no start date for User:Dale720240 so I looked at their log. They don't appear to have an entry. Can anyone offer an explanation for this? Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:31, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

This may be because the user creation log was only introduced in September 2005. That would mean he had an account for years without editing, which is possible if unlikely. Algebraist 17:01, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
His user id is about 300,000 less than mine, and I was registered in December 2005, so this is probably the case. Mr.Z-man 17:14, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Odd string

Unresolved: Known bug that needs fixing

I recently tried to add a section for newpage monitoring on my userpage, but there was some sort of error with {{Special:Newpages}}, and a nonsense string, UNIQ42e98bee533bca26-h-0--QINU?, is somehow added to all the subtitles. This problem also occurs on Template:Dashboard. What could be causing it? I am pretty certain this is a recent development, as I would have noticed it on the DashBoard sooner. --Intelligentsium 23:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC) (Moved from Help Desk)

bugzilla:16129 --brion (talk) 23:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Using {{subst:today}} in {{cite web}}

Hi, I want to use {{subst:today}} in the accessdate parameter of the cite web template. It seems to work only when the cite web is not wrapped in a <ref> tag. Any ideas? See below for what I mean.

{{cite web |title=Lorem Ipsum |url= |date={{date|9 September 2009}} |work=Test edit |publisher=Lorem Ipsum Inc |accessdate={{subst:today}}}}

gives the correct

"Lorem Ipsum". Test edit. Lorem Ipsum Inc. 9 September 2009. Retrieved 22 September 2009.

On the other hand,

<ref>{{cite web |title=Lorem Ipsum |url= |date={{date|9 September 2009}} |work=Test edit |publisher=Lorem Ipsum Inc |accessdate={{subst:today}}}}</ref>

instead gives: [1]

  1. ^ "Lorem Ipsum". Test edit. Lorem Ipsum Inc. 9 September 2009. Retrieved {{subst:today}}. Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)

BlazerKnight (talk) 22:41, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

See bugzilla:2700. — RockMFR 22:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
And documented at Wikipedia:Footnotes#Known bugs, ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 23:01, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
It sure would be nice for someone to actually pay attention to, and resolve, bugzilla:2700.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 23:55, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay, so it's a recognized bug. Any workarounds? BlazerKnight (talk) 22:11, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

You could use #tag: {{#tag:ref|{{subst:today}}}} should work. Svick (talk) 22:19, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Uh, even if this were possible, this shouldn't be implemented. The specified accessdate should reflect the last time an editor actually accessed the material, not the current date. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 21:51, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you don't understand what subst: does. {{today}} shows always the current date (or more precisely the date when the page was last regenerated). But when using subst:, the template is expanded on save and never regenerated again. So if I add {{subst:date}} to a page today, it will be expanded to {{date|2009-09-25}} (which renders as 25 September 2009) and will stay that way forever. Svick (talk) 22:00, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Oh. That certainly makes sense. My apologies. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:21, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Watchlist Monobook changes

I'm wondering, is there relevant Monobook.js code to never watchlist a specific page, even when using the option to watch every page I edit? Using Twinkle to report to AIV floods my watchlist (incredibly active page- I'll see the user blocked anyway, they're on my watchlist from when I warned them in 99% of cases). Thanks! --King Öomie 13:47, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be easier to customise Twinkle so that it doesn't add those pages to your watchlist? See Wikipedia:Twinkle/doc#Configuration for details. – ukexpat (talk) 17:36, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
He has probably in his settings that every page he edits is added to his watchlist, so it isn't Twinkle-specific. Svick (talk) 18:37, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Yup. Preferences\Watchlist. --King Öomie 18:48, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Baybayin script

Some editors have been complaining that they can't see my font. I've decided to use the Baybayin script to promote is as a national heritage. So If anyone could help out in making it visible, would be really thankful.--ᜊᜓᜅ ᜅ᜔ ᜑᜎᜋᜅ᜔ ᜋᜑᜒᜏᜄ (ᜂᜐᜉ)Baybayin 21:23, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

As images aren't allowed in signatures, I see no other way for you than to promote installation of appropriate fonts. I installed one of the fonts from page linked from Baybayin, and now I can see your signature fine. Svick (talk) 22:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Those aren't images... they're just characters that people don't have installed. I think that the signature is perfectly fine under policy (no images, etc.), although I would recommend using a different one which either uses mostly common characters or use the Baybayin characters but also have User:23prootie linked to in more common characters. Perhaps:
ᜊᜓᜅ ᜅ᜔ ᜑᜎᜋᜅ᜔ ᜋᜑᜒᜏᜄ (ᜂᜐᜉ) 23prootie
? –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 22:20, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I probably wasn't clear. I know he doesn't use images currently, I mentioned them as the only way I can think of how he could made his signature visible to most users, if that was allowed. Well, that or making people install the fonts. Svick (talk) 22:33, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Drilnoth's assessment, and strongly suggest that you alter your signature to include your username in this alphabet. The font you're using isn't included by default in almost any operating system, so the number of users who can read it by default is slim. It's not really fair to force users to install a font (from an external site no less) to interact with you (and most won't). --King Öomie 13:22, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Imho, that signature is also way too long (3 lines in the editing window) and has unrelated internal link (see Wikipedia:Canvassing). — AlexSm 16:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

He barely squeaks by under the hard cap, at 234 characters (minus timestamp). I didn't even notice; it appears grey (like all wikilinks) in WikiEd. --King Öomie 16:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Diffs in raw

Is there any way to see diffs in the raw format (like how we can use action=raw for normal pages)? I want to be able to get diffs without using much bandwidth. Is there way to do this?ManishEarthTalkStalk 00:53, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

The diffs are expensive to generate, so they are cached. The problem is: the diffs are cached as an HTML table so there is no rawness to get, really. The api will let you get just the diff's HTML, but only in an escaped container like xml (or yaml, json, etc). Also note, the API returns the diff cache, not the diff itself (but it sometimes generates the cache after a request or two, if none existed). You'll probably need an external tool or script to view it meaningfully. --Splarka (rant) 07:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
You can reduce bandwidth on your end by checking the box labelled "Do not show page content below diffs" in the miscellaneous section of your preferences. Graham87 09:32, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Community input requested: Proposed policy on the administrative use of RevisionDelete

Message cross-posted to several relevant venues. Please only reply on the revision deletion talk page.

Several months ago, I drafted a policy for the use of the revision deletion function for administrators on the English Wikipedia. After consultation with a small group of users, I made modifications and changes (with the help of FT2) to better address the suggestions of these people. I have waited a while for the policy to become more stable before consulting the wider community, because it is in my belief that there is nothing worse than discussing a policy draft that still does not have the consensus of its drafters. The policy in its current state is quite similar to the Criteria for Speedy Deletion policy, in that it defines very specific circumstances in which the revision deletion functionality can be used. The policy is defined so strictly to help allay some of the fears of potential misuse of the functionality, with deviation from the set criteria resulting in whatever sanctions are decided upon by the community. I would invite all users to read the statement and FAQs that I have written at Wikipedia talk:Revision deletion#Community consultation regarding the functionality and then discuss on the talk page the merits of ratifying this policy, and subsequently enabling the feature for administrators on this project. Thanks for listening and happy editing! ~fl 05:44, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


Is there any easy way to find out an edit's timestamp?

Take for example:

Is timestamped: 20090926084041

But I was only able to find this out by manipulating my user contributions url and looking at the link to the next edit difference.

I think I am missing something here.

Thanks in advance. Ikip (talk) 09:01, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Splarka, my hero, answered my question on #mediawiki IRC: thanks. Ikip (talk) 09:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Infobox help

I've tried a number of times, but I simply can't get this picture into the infobox here. Any help would be appreciated. - Biruitorul Talk 17:25, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! - Biruitorul Talk 17:43, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
(ec) The parameter image was specified twice in that infobox and in that case, the second one takes precedence. So if you tried to set the first image parameter, it had no effect. I alredy put the image there. Svick (talk) 17:45, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
One further point. I added a caption, but it's not showing up beneath the image. Can you tell what's wrong this time? - Biruitorul Talk 18:00, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
It was the same problem, the parameter caption was specified twce. Svick (talk) 18:35, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Main page showing in modern skin

Hello, the main page is currently in modern skin to me. The URL isn't changed at all, it's Any idea why that is? Dunno if it affects logged in users.

It appears to have fixed itself after the 6th reload. (talk) 18:29, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Table weirdness

Can anyone tell me why the table at Wikipedia:Template messages is displaying oddly for me, with bullets followed by blank lines between the bulleted entries. Looking at the edit window, I can't see why this should be so; and I'm pretty sure it never looked like this before. Deor (talk) 19:24, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

alright for me. (talk) 20:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Wow, that's one strange bug. It seems that whenever you have centered heading (==<center>Heading</center>==), then it somehow changes following tags in HTML so that they contain <span class="mw-headline" id="Heading">(usual text)</span> that they shouldn't. In case of unordered list (ordered list works the same as other tags) this causes insetion of <li style="list-style-type: none; list-style-image: none; list-style-position: outside;"><span class="mw-headline" id="Heading"></span></li> after every item. This probably shouldn't be visible, but Internet Expolorer seems to ignore that style. Svick (talk) 20:23, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I've just filed T22829. Svick (talk) 20:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Ah that explains it iI use firefox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:49, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Whatever magic was invoked in response to the bug report seems to have worked. Thanks to all. Deor (talk) 13:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Language bar/link to "main" page?

Would it be at all feasible to add a language option to the search feature on the sidebar, much like is on Or, if that's too complicated, a link to the entry page? An option to change search language when a search comes up empty? I often find myself annoyed that I need to retype the main website URL just to be able to search in a different language. I realize it's not an issue for people who use wikipedia in strictly one language, but as a multi-lingual user (I've used it in English, German, and Japanese) it really disrupts the flow of my reading. Eike (talk) 20:52, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

It's probably not exactly what you want, but if you don't want to search for a term, but directly go to a page on different language Wikipedia (e.g. Beispiel on German), you can enter de:Beispiel (de is language code for German) to the seach box and click Go or press Enter and you will get to the page de:Beispiel. Svick (talk) 21:30, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Didn't know I could do that, so it's good to know, but I'm sure there are plenty of other users who had no idea that function was available. And I still think a link to a language-change page would be very helpful. Eike (talk) 16:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Well such won't be added to the sidebar I think, it would clutter up the interface too much. But perhaps a selector or a "search all Wikipedia languages" option can be added to the results page. I'll ask the usability team and the searchengine guru (User:Rainman) —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I did think it might clutter things too much with a drop-down bar, but a quick link to a language change page would be a god-send. Thanks so much for looking into this. (-Eike, not logged in) —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Raw image

Is there a way to get an image in "raw" format. That is, it only displays the image; no search bar, no toolbars, just the image. (talk) 23:13, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Knowing just the filename you can get the full image via Special:Filepath. This work as a link like: Special:Filepath/Wiki.png (or Media:Wiki.png), as a parser function like {{filepath:Wiki.png}}, and as a redirecting URL like (which can be linked to externally). Note that these return the full image which can be up to 100 megs in some rare cases. You can use thumb.php to generate a thumbnail, but it will fail in cases where the specified width is smaller than the image, or for non-thumbable media like gif and video/audio. Thumb.php also does not automatically resolve shared repository images like Filepath does. --Splarka (rant) 00:00, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, when you're on the image's page (which you get to by clicking the image on the article), click the image again. For example, the raw image File:Wikilabrador jardin.JPG is located at hmwith 16:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks thats what i needed :)Tim1357 (talk) 01:44, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

inline notes

Is there any convenient way to add inline notes to an article? I could use the 'ref' tags but then the note would be indistinguishable from a mere reference and nobody would see it. Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 02:22, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes— by using groups. See Wikipedia:Footnotes#Separating reference lists and explanatory notes; see Arthur Rudolph for an example using the new list-defined references and groups. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 02:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Perfect. Thats exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks. Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 02:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

removing username suggestion

How does one remove the username suggestion on the login page? In Firefox, even after pressing Shift+Del when it's highlighted, the username is still suggested when one goes back to that page. Even Ctrl+Shift+Del and choosing "form and search history" doesn't help. --Espoo (talk) 10:36, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

It is stored as a cookie. — RockMFR 19:31, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

How to remove a harmful script template?

Any suggestions as to how I can remove an input script template Eukesh has installed on the Dzongkha Wikipedia and the Tibetan Wikipedia?

I get no response from Eukesh who (maybe thinking it would be helpful) put this script on the Dzongkha and Tibetan Wikipedias which is supposed to allow one to type Tibetan or Dzongkha by using translitteration - however the script (based on one for Indic languages) may be well intentioned but was obviously written by someone who understood little about Tibetan & Dzongkha translitteration or the model used for encoding Tibetan in the Unicode standard - so the script is worse than useless. It is on by default and consequently this script has to be manually turned off via a checkbox with each and every edit. This is bad enough, but the template also affects input in the Search /Go To box in the left hand column making that useless. There is no obvious way to turn it off there, and without that search box being functional a Wikipedia is totally crippled. (Then people complain that no one is using Dzongkha and Tibetan Wikipedias - this could be one of the main reasons for that sad state of affairs.)

I have suggested to Eukesh that he correct the script - here - but that hasn't happened; I have also asked him several times to remove it - here, here, here and here - but that hasn't happened either. I would remove the script myself, but don't know how to - and anyway probably don't have sufficient rights. Does someone have any ideas or know who I should contact? I have raised this issue at the Help Desk - but they say they acan only deal with issues affecting English Wikipedia. There is obviously no Help Desk or Village Pump for Tibetan or Dzongkha Wikipedias - in fact I am one of the only active contributors there. Would appreciate any suggestions as to how to correct this.

To be able to install such a script Eukesh obviously has something like admin or sysop privileges on the Dzongkha and Tibetan Wikipedias. The fact that he installed such a script template without knowing those languages or the translitteration used for them; and has the script turned on by default - when even if it did work it should only be an option (as it grabs and modifies user input); and that he has not responded when I have informed him of the problems, is imo an abuse of such priviliges. Obviously no one is going to use Dzongkha and Tibetan Wikipedias if they cannot use the search function or easily edit pages due to the presence of this script. I am currently trying to encourage high school students in Bhutan to contribute to the Dzongkha Wikipedia but unless this Translit termplate script is removed or fixed that is very difficult. Chris Fynn (talk) 14:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

If you are unable to resolve this on these two Wikipedias, then contact a steward, either by using Internet Relay Chat (I suggest if you don't already know what this is, an emergency is not the right time to learn) or by posting on the talk page of a currently active steward.-gadfium 02:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
It seems that Mike has dealt with this. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 12:09, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

AfD cat help

Wikipedia:articles for deletion/2009 International Series hurricane season - I've decided on a category, but I can't find out how to remove the "nominator unsure" cat. --Dylan620 (contribs, logs)help us! 21:39, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Done. The afd categories are usually included by using the {{REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD}} template. — RockMFR 21:44, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Watchlist RSS

In the latest MediaWiki update, an RSS feed was added for the watchlist (bugzilla:471). The only mention of this I can find anywhere in the interface is at Special:Preferences. Is this only half-implemented? Is there any way for a user to find a link to the RSS feed? — RockMFR 22:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

It wasn't added in the latest update. You can find description of parameters on [17] (serach for feedwatchlist). Default form is I guess the new feature is the security token (before, you had to have a cookie set, just like when you are logged in to Wikipedia in your browser, which is pretty difficult to do in RSS reader). Svick (talk) 23:11, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I've now documented it at Wikipedia:Syndication. — RockMFR 23:18, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, there's a backend but no frontend for it yet. :P Could use a little lovin', I've reopened the original bug... --brion (talk) 22:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Backlog work

Are there bots that are supposed to be going through categories like Category:Copy to Wikimedia Commons and Category:Non-free Wikipedia file size reduction request? If not, what's stopping the creation of such bots? OrangeDog (talk • edits) 01:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

It depends on the circumstance. There have been bots that move images to the commons. Im not sure why they arent active. However, bots should not resize images because the downscaling algorithms are not perfect and a human needs to make sure that the resized image is ok.Tim1357 (talk) 01:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
An admin should be checking re-sized images anyway, in order to delete the old versions. Surely the fail rate is low enough for bots to be of use in the actual slow re-sizing. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 01:46, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Bot requests to do actual resizing have always been controversial for some reason; what if the bot gets it wrong? What if the image is actually free because of something like {{PD-textlogo}}? The move to Commons backlog does need human review, but I don't see why there isn't some "approved for bot move" template that could be added by trusted users. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 02:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
But the point is they all need to be checked anyway; it would just be far quicker if a bot were doing the slow bit. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 02:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
I belive Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/NeuRobot 2 is the most recent BRFA for an image-resizing bot, the commentary there may be enlightening. In that case, it seems that it wound up being approved as more of a script-assisted task (i.e. Neurolysis would review each resized image before uploading). Anomie 04:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Because with copying to commons, you need ensure all the required information present, and they aren't always stored in a {{Information}} template. Peachey88 (Talk Page · Contribs) 02:09, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Can't a bot check to see whether it is present? i.e. all {{Information}} parameters are set. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 02:11, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Not really; yes, the bot can check for that, but it can't determine whether or not its all accurate. There are plenty of valid images with missing information, but just as many copyvios that have all of them filled out. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 02:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't the category only contain those that have been checked? If not, let's make one for checked images so a bot can move them. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 02:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
(Not in direct reply to anyone.) To clarify the copy to commons bits, you can presently human check an article and mark it for transfer (by bot) to commons using CommonsHelper or, through that interface, do it yourself with reasonably little fuss. If you wanted "human checked" articles, a better bet than that category would be to look at the transclusions of {{Move to Commons}}, which are added by hand. There are also a few legacy bot categories - most notably JohnBot II - containing images which have been checked by hand but were never moved because the bot ceased to function. Due to the very recent updates, virtually all commons-related processes stopped working for a while (most are now working again), but in the long term, thanks to those updates the whole thing is going to become a great deal easier for everyone - perhaps so easy that we could (if we wanted to) decide to move all applicable images to commons en masse. - Jarry1250 [ In the UK? Sign the petition! ] 16:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Display problem

I'm not sure if this is a problem with my computer or a Wiki problem. Under preferences I was using the Modern appearance setting and I noticed a display problem on the SS Eastland page. The lower half of the Infobox wouldn't display however the text was aligned like the infobox was still there. When I switched to Beta everything looked ok. Shinerunner (talk) 10:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I can't reproduce. What browser are you using ? —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Internet Explorer version 8 I believe. Operating system is Windows XP Professional service pack 3 and the display adapter is Nvidia Quadro4 750XGL. The display settings are 32 bit for color quality and 1024 by 768 screen resolution. Shinerunner (talk) 12:01, 28 September 2009 (UTC) in IE 8 has the same problem for me. Svick (talk) 12:26, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Please add a screenshot to bugzilla:20848. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 12:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Screenshot added. Svick (talk) 13:28, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

missing reflist hack

Somewhere (I'm not sure where), someone implemented something to prevent the error message generated by MediaWiki for articles that contain references, but don't contain a reflist, from appearing when the article isn't in article space. This doesn't work completely: if you change your interface language on English Wikipedia to anything but English, the big red error messages show up. Talk:Selena Gomez is an example: with my interface language set to Dutch, I get "Citefout: De tag <ref> bestaat, maar de tag <references/> is niet aangetroffen" in great big red letters. Set it to English, and the message goes away.—Kww(talk) 15:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

This is done by changing a MediaWiki interface message. These are language specific, so for any language other than english (including british english), those changes are not visible. See for a list of the cite interface messages, this check. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 17:32, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
I knew those messages existed, but never realized how they came into play. Since the language setting only affects messages, I'm not sure why you would want anything other than English on ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 22:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
And it looks like if we start fiddling with the Dutch messages, then the Dutch Wikipedia would see those changes. I don't think I want to go there without a lot of cross-wiki discussion. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 22:40, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
System messages can be changed either globally, in the Mediawiki software, or locally, by changing appropriate Mediawiki: namespace pages. So we could change the dutch messages locally on en.wikipedia if for some reason we wanted to. Algebraist 22:44, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, for this specific error, the interface message is: MediaWiki:Cite_error_refs_without_references, which overrides the global english interface message. To translate, you create MediaWiki:Cite_error_refs_without_references/nl for instance, which will locally override the global dutch interface message. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 23:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Brion leaving WMF

For those like me who had not yet heard. Brion is joining StatusNet and will thus be leaving his current day job as CTO of the Wikimedia Foundation. He will not leave the community, but clearly he will have a lot less time for Mediawiki software work in the future. I congratulate Brion for taking a new step in his life and career and I hope he will continue to be a strong pillar for our community. We have a lot to thank Brion for, he has shaped much of the technology that we as editors and of course the readers, use on a daily basis. And he has done so on the smallest budget and with the highest personal commitment of any top 10 website CTO I gather. Thank you Brion. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 21:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

/me nods and starts a respectful slow clap. hmwith 21:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Aw shucks *blush* --brion (talk) 22:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
*grabs brion's leg like a 4-year-old*. :\ --slakrtalk / 00:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
This is the end of an era. Thanks, Brion, for keeping the motor running all this time. I hope your next project is as great a success as this one has been.   Will Beback  talk  10:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I just saw the notice a couple hours ago. At least he isn't fully gone,but he will be hard to replace. I never had personal interaction with brion, but I've seen his fingerprints, and as someone working on a decent sized IT project, I have sympathy for what you've put up with. Good Luck with your new venture, and I hope we can fill your shoes.SPhilbrickT 20:16, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Flagged revisions lab in active testing

Per brion's blogpost, you are invited to test the flagged revisions tools. MZMcBride and Gmaxwell are current bureaucrats, and there are a slew of admins now. Please test and report issues. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 01:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Error when moving subpages

The last couple of times when I have moved a page with the "Move subpages (up to 100), if applicable" option checked, I have got an error message. In both cases, the move of the root page succeeded but the subpages did not move. The exact error message was:

A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was:

    (SQL query hidden)

from within function "MovePageForm::moveToNewTitle". Database returned error "1062: Duplicate entry '10-ITN_talk' for key 2 (".

This is when I moved Template:ITNtalk to Template:ITN talk. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:49, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Just happened again when I moved Template:Infobox Airport to Template:Infobox airport. Had to move about 10 subpages manually, very irritating. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:52, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
bugzilla:20797. The fix was probably not deployed. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:39, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Hmm, the last line says "Should be fixed in r56920". But now we seem to be on r57039 ... — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:08, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately you cannot simply compare Special:Version and revisions linked on mediazilla anymore since WMF projects are now running on a separate "wmf" branch (note 1.16alpha-wmf in version name). This question gets aske over and over (I asked it myself on mediazilla), so maybe someone can add this information at least to WP:Bugzilla... — AlexSm 15:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Oh, thanks for clearing that up. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:44, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Nor could you ever rely on the revision number, since we always had lots of individually merged hacks. :) --brion (talk) 17:44, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Account creation temporary borked


When creating accounts you might find the following error message:

  1. (Cannot contact the database server: Unknown database 'strategyappwiki' (

I've mentioned it in -tech, they changed something recently so hopefully they can solve this asap. Q T C 15:19, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Seems fixed now, dont know when problem first cropped up but likely around 14:30 UTC. Q T C 15:35, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, we had an extra bogus database listed in the system which confused the central user account system after we removed it. Trimming it from the database lists got things happy again. --brion (talk) 17:08, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit not appearing in page history

{{resolved}} This didn't appear in the page history (note: link will be dead as soon as another edit is made to my talk page)... any ideas as to what is going on? –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 17:53, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried clearing your cache?. Shows fine for me. –xenotalk 17:57, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
17:49, 2 October 2009 Drilnoth (talk | contribs | block) (6,527 bytes) (→Grosse Point Light and Chicago Harbor Light:  Re)
12:31, 2 October 2009 7&6=thirteen (talk | contribs | block) (6,335 bytes) (Grosse Point Light and Chicago Harbor Light) 
(edit conflict) It is now (for me), although I have had this same problem before myself. My guess is that this was just due to the lag, and the job queue. I find either purging or a null edit manages to update these kinds of things (or just waiting until Wikipeda updates automatically). Best, - Kingpin13 (talk) 18:00, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
(ec) I hadn't, but it is there now. Weird; I've never had to clear my cache to view recent edits in the page history before. Thanks! b–Drilnoth (T • C • L) 18:02, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Dead Link Tag Bot


I asked this a few days ago on the IRC, but I don't think i got an answer. I was wondering if anybody knew about a bot that goes around, finds dead links, and tags them. I know some bots do this as a secondary function (User:WebCiteBOT). However, I was want to find a bot with this task as its primary function.


Tim1357 (talk) 03:29, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea...
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 06:01, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
There was a script that compiled a list of dead links - see Wikipedia:Dead external links. Unfortunately, it hasn't been active for nearly three years. Graham87 09:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
There's is which is used on the German Wikipedia. And their is also Checklinks tools (developed by me) which stores the dead links on the Toolserver, it allows users automatically tag links. I, however, feel that we should be spamming suggesting sites to not change their directory scheme every few month and more importantly provide information how to use three-hundred redirection and how to detect on using tools to detect dead links. — Dispenser 16:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I know about all of those, I was looking for a script that adds the dead link template directly in the article. I know CHECKLINKS does this, I want sure about, i know it does something on the talk page. Tim1357 (talk) 22:24, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Firefox 3.5.3 problems

I've lost all the top menus - login/my talk, etc, and the tabbed menu. Thus Groans of the Britons starts with:
Groans of the Britons
An unassessed article from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

This started sometime today. I don't think I did anything to Firefox. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 18:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried bypassing the browse cache? Svick (talk) 19:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Doh! I've cleared my Firefox cache, that did the trick. Maybe setting it to 30mb instead of 50mb will stop it from happening again. Or buying more memory (if Crucial makes it to fit my brain). Dougweller (talk) 05:12, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Replace Images Python

Hey, I wanted to know how to use pywikipedia to upload and replace resized images. Is there a script that does this? Tim1357 (talk) 22:28, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

When will flagged revisions be turned on?

I already looked on the project page, there's nothing there.— Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 01:37, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

According to WP:FLPPR, the trial should start in a few weeks. Svick (talk) 01:56, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Considering the advancement of the testing [18], it will probably take much longer. Cenarium (talk) 16:02, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
If we can get a per-page opt-in going it'll be much sooner rather than later. --brion (talk) 16:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't know what you mean exactly but in my opinion, we should first enable the passive part, to have time to get used to the system and have enough reviewers, so as to be ready when we enable the active, opt-in part. Also, if we have only the active part for the trial, we won't be able to see how they work together, yet both would be needed in an implementation, as they have different and complementary purposes, one local protection, the other global monitoring. Cenarium (talk) 17:54, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Not sure what you mean by "passive part"; there'd be noting to show on pages that haven't had flagged mode enabled on them. --brion (talk) 23:58, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
By passive part, I mean 'patrolled revisions', reviewers can review any article, no sysop is required to enable this, but there is no precedence, so it's just for monitoring, kind of enhanced patrolled edits; there would be indeed nothing to show, it would be silent. Cenarium (talk) 16:13, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I understand the confusion, I thought the configuration had not been enabled at all, as most users visibly. We were not talking about the same thing... Please all, feel free to test at Cenarium (talk) 14:39, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

In general, this page should be created and edited by (insert Anon IP)

So, I went to move a {{SharedIP}} 'plate from my talk page to my user page, as technically I use a static IP, and I get this message:

Wikipedia does not have a user page with this exact title. In general, this page should be created and edited by User:

But, actually, anon IP's currently cannot create their own User page, AFAICT. So, "in general" I'd be happy to create it, but specifically, I can't.

Can some technocrat either fix the language of the internal template or fix the reality? I don't think I have a strong preference either way, but I'm pretty sure a year or two ago I could actually create my own user page and did so on previous IP accounts (which is especially handy when you have multiple IPs you want to declare, lest WP:SOCK accusations appear). Maybe this has been an issue with spammers or vandalism, I don't know, but the language is obviously out of whack. -- (talk) 08:00, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

  1. Anons haven't been able to create subjectspace pages since 5 Dec 2005, I believe. So since then you won't have been able to create your user page.
  2. This situation can't be changed without a change to the software settings. There is T18642 open which requests that the restriction be lifted for non-article namespaces.
  3. The message could probably be changed. I'm not sure which parser functions work in the interface (not many I think) but a {{lc:{{PAGENAME}}}}={{uc:{{PAGENAME}}}} check could possibly be used to detect when a page is an IP's user page and change the message accordingly.
— Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:34, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
There are many people whose usernames have no Latin letters, such as User:172 and people with unicode usernames, so the above code would have some nasty side effects. Graham87 14:36, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
OK, thanks for looking into this, Martin. I expect the wording could be changed without worrying about parsing if only IP editors will see this, excepting some rare deleted/protected user pages for which it's not really important that someone else should be "creat[ing] and edit[ing]" it. I guess the message, were an IP to accidentally try to start someone-else's User page, is meant to sound nice about saying no. Anyway, I just thought it was an interesting oddity. -- (talk) 00:10, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Hopefully someone here will tell us where this message is held and then we can think about how it can be improved. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:10, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

The message in question is MediaWiki:newarticletextanon which transcludes MediaWiki:newarticletext. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 21:41, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Larger edit notice disclaimer(?)

Not sure if this is the right place or not, but is the edit notice:

Please note

  • When you click Save, your changes will immediately become visible to everyone. If you wish to run a test, please edit our Sandbox instead.
  • Please post only encyclopedic information that can be verified by external sources. Please maintain a neutral, unbiased point of view.
  • Please do not copy and paste from copyrighted websites – only public domain resources can be copied without permission.
  • Any text that you did not write yourself (apart from brief citations) must be available under terms consistent with Wikipedia's Terms of Use before you use it.
  • If you do not want your writing to be edited, read or redistributed by other people, then do not submit it here.

new or larger than it was before? Or is it in a different place? I've had to shrink my edit window by 10 lines (down from 40 lines) in order to be able to see the "Insert"/"Wiki markup"/etc. section when editing (and I use that a lot). — Bellhalla (talk) 16:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Two similar messages were merged. Some discussion on MediaWiki talk:Wikimedia-editpage-tos-summary. Feel free to request a revert and then we probably should find a prominent place to discuss it. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:43, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Can't we swap the positions around? OrangeDog (talk • edits) 17:52, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I was thinking that yesterday. I think it would be more useful and user-friendly if we did. hmwith 12:23, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

embed a google gadget

Is there any way to embed a google gadget like this one:
in one of the articles or a user page? The source code looks like this:
<script src=""></script>

Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 05:01, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I suspect that including any script which is hosted off WP would be a huge security risk and would be intentionally blocked by the interface.  7  06:17, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
That assumption is incorrect. Scripts can be loaded from any place (as allowed by the HTML standard) and responsibility lies thus with the author of the local .js file. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:01, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
ImportScriptURI(url) is the code to load such a script from a local script. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:04, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Thank you but I must be missing something because I cant get it to work. I've tried every variation that I can think of. Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 19:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
ImportScriptURI(url) is a JavaScript function that you can call from another JavaScript code. I don't know about a way to add JavaScript code to Wikipedia page that would work for all users, not just you, other than changing MediaWiki:Common.js which is exteremely unlikely to be accepted for this. Svick (talk) 19:40, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
If you do find a way to add javascript for all users (besides being an admin and editing MediaWiki-namespace pages such as MediaWiki:Common.js, of course), please report it to Anomie 12:26, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


{{resolved}} I'm obviously missing something in the usage of #switch. Probably pretty basic, since this is my first effort at a template. A simplified form of my template is at User:Kww/charttemplate, and, as you can see from the expansion at User talk:Kww/charttest, the parser doesn't even seem to recognize that I'm trying to use the switch control structure.—Kww(talk) 21:38, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I fixed it for you. You had wrong external link syntax and so the software wasn't able to parse the whole {{#switch}}. BTW is there a reason why are you using User talk:Kww/charttest instead of User:Kww/charttest? Svick (talk) 22:03, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Now I'm wholly confused. Is the parser parsing the #switch after it has done things like link inclusion? Not before? Ouch. That's going to make my actual target output of
|French Singles Chart <ref>[{{{artist}}}&titel={{{title}}}]</ref>

a real bitch to generate. Please tell me that it won't try to expand the table before it has processed the #switch.

As for the "talk" problem, just a cockpit error. It'll be deleted once this testing is over.—Kww(talk) 22:13, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

The problem in the code you gave now is that the parser can't know whether you mean "table |" or "#switch |". Fortunately, you can do this by using {{!}} instead of "table |". Svick (talk) 22:26, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'm much closer now. Macro is at User:Kww/charttemplate2, test expansion is at User talk:Kww/charttemplate2. Serious problem, though: the contents of the references are being processed before the variables have been substituted, which defeats the purpose of the macro. Any way to change that order?—Kww(talk) 23:23, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Svick got it for me.—Kww(talk) 23:32, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I tried replacing <ref>s with {{#tag:ref}} and it worked. Svick (talk) 23:41, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

question about box --- *solved*

{{resolved}} in a box, is it possible to change the size of an image??
for instance: please have a look at ("my") Chelo’s Burden: when you click to get the image file, you can see it's smaller than the one shown in the box and i would get it like this (145x188) + i tried to add |120px but it does not work + Template talk:Infobox comic book title does not comment --- thanks in advance kernitou talk 08:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

If you read the documentation of the infobox you will note that there is an imagesize parameter. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 12:07, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
thanks a lot kernitou talk 14:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Error when editing protected pages

Quite often when I edit a fully protected page I receive, after a long delay, the Wikimedia Foundation Error notice. The edit always succeeds but the browser does not reload the page. I use Firefox 3.5. I was just wondering if this happened to anyone else? The technical output of the most recent occurence is below. Request: POST, from via (squid/2.7.STABLE6) to ( Error: ERR_READ_TIMEOUT, errno [No Error] at Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:55:13 GMT The xxx bit is my IP address, hidden by me. Thanks in advance. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:00, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I often see this timeout when editing a highly transcluded page (which are often fully protected), and I think that's "normal". — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:37, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
It's not exactly normal, but it's bugzilla:12814. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:45, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

magic words

Is it possible that magic words (like lc:) might be returning stuff in ascii when the rest of wikimedia is using UTF8? Or anything similar to that scenario? Rich Farmbrough, 20:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC).

Yes, possible. I know that PAGENAME behaves a little strangely with punctuation marks. For example
{{#ifeq:{{PAGENAME:Bahá'í Faith}}|Bahá'í Faith|same|different}}

returns same. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok I will stop banging my head against a brick wall then, thanks. Rich Farmbrough, 21:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC).
Bugzilla:16474, I believe, and it's outputting HTML entities:
{{#ifeq: {{FULLPAGENAME:Foo's Bar}} | Foo&#39;s Bar |Y|N}} → Y.
Amalthea 22:34, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
That is exactly the problem I'm getting, space converting to &32; for example. Ill hurry off and vote for the bug. Rich Farmbrough, 18:19, 2 October 2009 (UTC).

list indentation

Lists arent indented very much and lists of lists with many subsections can be difficult to read. Is there any way to increase the indentation for a particular list? Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 01:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

You can't use wikitext list to do this, and have to use HTML and inline CSS. E.g:
  <ul style="margin-left: 5em">
  • foo
    • bar
      • baz
Note that the second level list has bigger indentation, but the third has default. You have to set it for every <ul> (or <ol> for ordered list). But make sure this is necessary, because it lowers readability of the page source for other editors. Svick (talk) 20:41, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

You can do a lot with WP lists but not alway what you expect

  • A
    • B
  • C
    • D
  • A
    • B
    • D


For example. Rich Farmbrough, 16:54, 3 October 2009 (UTC).

RfC to increase the default thumbnail size of images

The issue of the default thumbnail size of 180px has come to a head after many years. All input is welcome. Thanks. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Percentage scaling

Part of the default thumbnail issue above stems from the technical limitation of not being able to use percentage widths for images. It should not be a big problem to automatically scale thumbnails widths to a certain percentage of the article width automatically. This would make the default widths independent of browser window sizes and zoom factors.

Therefore, I hereby officially propose to create and add such a rescaling script to the site JavaScript. E.g., the default relative rescaling width could then be specified as ~16% for the 180px user preference default. Adjustments can then be done by changing the preferences pixel width as usual. For users without scripting support the old pixel-based width would still work without change.

As for the finer implementation details, the script should run before image fetching because we neither want to let the browser to blow up the fetched images (because it would lead to artifacts) nor would we like to load different resolutions from the server for the same page (maybe this needs some server-side help). To keep the server-side image scaling and caching at the current resource level, the script would scale image sizes in the current steps of resolution (e.g. 180px, 220px...) Rescaling the browser window would either not change the width (to preserve the resolution - exactly as for the current implementation of fixed image withs) or would rescale (with possible artifacts) and then load larger sized images through a background server request (browser window resizing does not happen very often, so this would not have a noticeable effect on network traffic). Cacycle (talk) 02:29, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Images are resized server-side on-demand, and that demand is dictated by the server-side MediaWiki code running on the cluster's Apache servers. The images are stored in obfuscated file directories and links are resolved internally as the page is rendered. You cannot use JavaScript to demand an image in an arbitrary size because 1) the image will not exist in the desired size until an Apache server has requested it in the 'normal' fashion, and 2) even if the image does exist, the JavaScript will not be able to find it unless it is told by an Apache where the image in that particular size is located. Neither of these problems are insurmountable, but they only scratch the surface of the problems with percentage-scaling of images, and raise the question: what advantages would percentage-scaling offer that are so bounteous as to justify all this effort? Happymelon 15:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Actually, those would mostly be easy to bypass. The directory is based on md5 hash of the filename; it doesn't change for different thumbnail sizes and there's no actual randomness. If an image doesn't exist at a request size, it will be automatically generated (see transformVia404 in mw:Manual:$wgLocalFileRepo). The main problems I can see are:
  1. Small images. The server will not scale images larger than their actual size. If MediaWiki determines that the requested size is larger than the actual size, it puts the full image in the page and lets the browser scale it. But it will refuse to thumbnail it. This seems like it could cause problems for percentage widths where JS doesn't know the original image size.
  2. Is it actually possible to run code after you know what images are on the page, but before the images are loaded?
  3. Is it possible to determine the actual window size, or are we just going to get the screen resolution (does that work in every browser?) and assume people are using a full window?
  4. if someone is using a mobile browser, but not the mobile site, will images even be usable? The iPhone has a 320×480 screen, so an image set at 16% is going to be at most 76px wide.
    Can you tell what this is without looking at the image name or clicking? I can't.
-- Mr.Z-man 17:19, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Happy-melon: We are dealing with the rendered html page, not wiki code. All we have to do is to change the url's of <image> tags from into That is super-simple and does not need any assumptions, md5 hashes, or other elaborate calculations. Because we will fetch the exact standard pixel sizes that will be requested anyway, we will not interefere with server-side scaling and caching.
  • Mr.Z-man:
    1. This might need a server-side software change so that the server send the original size image instead which would be displayed without browser rescaling. I do not think that this would break or interefere with any existing application. Alternatively, it might be possible to catch that error message and to dynamically load the unscaled image.
    2. Yes, that is possible, the <script> tag must be in the header for that so that the code is executed immediately before page rendering. We might need some polling code that checks the incoming page code (?) and this might need some more detailed testing to figure out if it is possible to be faster than the requests and/or if the requests are somehow canceled by changing the url. Does anybody know more about this?
    3. It is no problem in JavaScript to get the window size in px and all we want to do is to scale the images px-wise relative to the window (or the content element).
    4 Since this is a JavaScript approach we can build in any intelligence and special-case handling it needs to work for every imaginable possible situation.

Cacycle (talk) 16:02, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Cite text

Can someone take a look at MediaWiki:Cite text and make sure I've got it working right? Thanks. — RockMFR 02:53, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

LiquidThreads in beta testing in Wikimedia Labs

For those of us who don't follow the tech blog, I'm pleased to announce that LiquidThreads is now in beta testing in the Wikimedia Labs.

LiquidThreads is a next-generation discussion system for MediaWiki, which turns talk pages into a real forum, while maintaining the essential aspects of a wiki that make them so effective. It was originally developed as a Google Summer of Code project by David McCabe, and I've spent the last 4 months preparing it for deployment on Wikimedia sites, under contract from the Foundation.

Presently, we're waiting for the labs project to become relatively stable, and have all the features we need. Once that's been done, we will commence a staged roll-out of LiquidThreads on various Wikimedia sites. It should be noted that LiquidThreads has a mode in which it can be switched on or off per-page. My intention is to activate it on this site in that mode, and allow users to discuss pages that would benefit from the enhanced discussion management (I'm thinking of high-traffic noticeboards and discussion pages). Once it's been rolled out and people are familiar with it, we can think about the possibility of turning it on for all discussion pages.

LiquidThreads is very much a work in progress, and your feedback is essential for it to get to a point at which we can deploy it on this wiki. Please do send any and all constructive feedback to the feedback page on the test wiki, and I will do my best to accommodate it.

I'm very excited about the opportunity to bring this technology to Wikipedia, and to give our discussion pages a long-needed overhaul. — Werdna • talk 09:16, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

If it means no more edit conflicts any more, then I'm all for. (Is any work being done in your labs on getting alphabetical order working? It's just that, well, this software is being used for dictionaries and encyclopedias and things, and it still thinks that AB comes before Aa...)--Kotniski (talk) 10:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
And FlaggedRevs comes before LiquidThreads, but… — CharlotteWebb 19:20, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Usability Initiative's "Babaco" release deployed

To little fanfare, the usability folks (who are, I suspect, either brewing an official announcement, or too modest to announce it) have deployed their latest usability improvements to English Wikipedia, code-named "Babaco".

The new improvements are:

  • Navigable TOC
    The "Navigable Table of Contents", a pane to the right of the edit window in which you can easily jump from section to section. (Activate in the "Editing" tab of preferences).
  • Content generation
    Content generation systems, which streamline common content generation, such as inserting links and tables. Also adds a powerful new search and replace system. Available for all users with the experimental editing toolbar activated.

Congratulations to the usability team for their Babaco release! — Werdna • talk 10:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Sounds great, but (another moan this time): is there some reason this sort of thing is not announced publicly via top-of-page or top-of-watchlist messages? Or perhaps it will be?--Kotniski (talk) 10:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
It's intentionally somewhat hidden for now to get an initial round of feedback.--Eloquence* 00:40, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Why does this only appear when I am editing but not when I am browsing? When I edit, I edit one section, and so the "navigation" is somewhat trivial. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
We already have a TOC for reading. This new editing-TOC will be best for newbies, who will often hit "edit" at the top of the page and go looking for the section they want. In a long article, that's useful even for veteran editors if there's a long article with problems across multiple sections. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 13:03, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
The 'Enable enhanced editing toolbar' only works if wikEd is disabled—they seem to be incompatible. 'Enable help for adding advanced wiki text' does not seem to have any effect. 'Enable navigable table of contents' does not work for me. I tried several skins, but do not see any 'Navigable table'. Ruslik_Zero 13:28, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Guys please remember to always report browser and OS versions if you have problems. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 13:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
FF 3.5.3. Ruslik_Zero 18:02, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
On which OS? — neuro 20:36, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
WinXP. Ruslik_Zero 08:23, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Unable to reproduce on Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv: Gecko/20090824 Firefox/3.5.3. — neuro 14:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
This may be the same problem I had: the announcement made me think this would be visible at all times, but it is only visible during editing. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:13, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I love thoses features.
Still, I wish there was a TOC on the right when browsing long pages. I use the TOC to find the section I want to read, then I may want to use the TOC again, to find another section I would like to read. I am obliged to return to the top of the page, and return to the article afterwards, and so on and so forth. A navigable TOC always on the right would be really helpful. Dodoïste (talk) 14:28, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
The 'Enable navigable table of contents' does not work for me either - there's just a black space to the right of the (narrower) edit window (IE 8.0.6001.18702, Windows XP).Nigel Ish (talk) 14:23, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
It does work on Firefox 3.0.14 on the same computer however.Nigel Ish (talk) 14:31, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
It does not work with IE 8.0 on Vista. Though I would say it's only normal to have bug with IE and people should stop using an outdated browser. It is working fine on Opera 10 and 9.64. Dodoïste (talk) 14:36, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

How to make a page non-googleable?

If I have a page in my userspace I don't want to be googleable, can this be done with some tag/template/etc.? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:34, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Add {{noindex}}. N.B. User talk pages are already excluded. –xenotalk 19:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Keep in mind a prefix search will still turn up all your userpages- like this --King Öomie 19:38, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Database mismatch

This is weird. My contributions say that an edit I made is not at the top of the page, when it clearly is. Checked 3 times, cleared cache each time, still the same.



Any ideas? :| — neuro 20:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Currently there is a 5-10 minute server lag, could this explain this? DigitalC (talk) 20:10, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I checked before and it gave me only a couple of seconds. Strange. — neuro 20:11, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Never mind about reproduction, page has new revisions. — neuro 20:12, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Lost revisions on United Parcel Service

Quite a number of revisions of United Parcel Service seem to have vanished. The problem starts about Jan 2005 and runs at least up to May 2005. The edit summaries are present, but the actual text of the revision (and correspondingly, the diffs) are missing. Is this something that can be solved, and if so, to whom and where should it be mentioned? (talk) (really, User:JesseW/not logged in) 01:30, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

bugzilla:20757RockMFR 01:47, 3 October 2009 (UTC)