Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League

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WikiProject National Football League (Rated Project-class)
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Definition of "headquarters"[edit]

What's the definition of "headquarters" for the teams? Is it where the administrative (Owner/CEO/GM/Coaches etc.) offices are? I'm speaking in reference to the Kansas City Chiefs. It says they're "played and headquartered in Arrowhead Stadium." If HQ means where their admin offices are, then it's wrong. Corky 01:55, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Dictionary defines as "the administrative center of an enterprise".—Bagumba (talk) 04:03, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, I just wasn’t sure what Wikipedia’s definition was! Corky 11:07, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Corkythehornetfan, I agree with Bagumba, HQ is the team's administrative office. Is there a specific source you could provide for what you added to Kansas City Chiefs though? From a brief Google search, it appears the University has partnered with the Chiefs for healthcare-related activities, but I didn't immediately notice anything about HQ. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:55, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
@Gonzo fan2007: This website is the picture of where the admin/coaches offices, or headquarters", is located. It's called the "University of Kansas Health System Sports Medicine and Performance Center" (I got the name wrong the first time). This article has the old name. There are no offices in the stadium itself except for Chiefs Security, the contracted security, and Jackson County Sports Authority. Corky 07:24, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Booth Lusteg[edit]

I came across this article via WP:THQ#Wrong info in "Booth Lusteg Wikipedia" article on Google and have been trying to clean it up and expand it a bit. I've been able to find a few sources, but have sort of run into a bit of a brick wall. So, I was wondering if someone from this WikiProject might be able to help out a bit or suggest further improvements. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:35, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Marchjuly, I clipped some sources from Newspapers.com on Booth Lusteg for you: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]. Hope that helps! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:47, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for taking the time to find those Gonzo_fan2007. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:14, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football#Meaning of "field goal attempt"[edit]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football#Meaning of "field goal attempt". -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:36, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

It has been closed without action.2605:E000:9149:8300:193B:3F53:BB51:A254 (talk) 01:06, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
It was closed because an administrator named Gonzo fan2007 felt there was no value to Wikipedia in further continuing the discussion and that no action (at least the action you were proposing) needed to be taken. Gonzo fan2007's close also included a warning for you to move on to other things. If you disagree with the close or the warning, then you should discuss your concerns with Gonzo fan2007 on their user talk page. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:25, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Win-Loss Records for Starting Quarterbacks[edit]

I think most of us can agree that Win-Loss records for starting quarterbacks are noteworthy statistics that are valuable to readers. The Win-Loss records as a starter (overall and by season) help to identify the successes of a quarterback in leading his team to victory. This is especially true in the case of Tom Brady who is the winningest quarterback in NFL history. Nevertheless, his Win-Loss records as a starter, which have existed as statistics on his page for years, were recently stripped. Help me to maintain this valuable statistic and preserve his legacy and records for posterity.

Mwatz122 (talk) 04:58, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

With this post is actually about, MWatz122 feels supports win/loss records should be included in a quarterback’s statistics on their page. We have had an edit dispute over this I have advised this editor that there is no consensus to include this and the overwhelming majority of quarterbacks do not have their record as a starter included in their stats section and only recently with the exception being Tom Brady, has this been added to pages. This editor has failed to understand that I have reverted them adding it back has nothing to do with my personal opinion on this issue, just that the majority of quarterback articles do not include this as a stat.
Now about my personal opinion, the record is not notable in the least bit since it is a team accomplishment not an individual one. Additionally, I do not feel the record is a stat. If a quarterback has an exceptional record, then mention in the opening or in a “legacy” section but not as a stat because it is not a stat. In fact I’d be willing to suggest a compromise be the record is removed from the statistics table and moved to somewhere within the body of the article, like the opening. The only articles that should list record are coach articles.--Rockchalk717 06:32, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
Win-Loss record as a starter is not exactly a team statistic though. In 2016, the New England Patriots went 14-2 as a team but Tom Brady went 11-1 as a starter. That is an important distinction. Yes, the team plays a role in this statistic, but the team plays a role in every statistic. Do we exclude passing yards/passing touchdowns because a quarterback has an exceptional offensive line or talented receivers? Obviously not. Do you really believe that someone who is interested in learning about a quarterback would not be interested in knowing how many Wins/Losses they had as a starter? They would not be able to find that information by referencing the team's page.
And to your point, the pages of Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, Andrew Luck, Nick Foles, Tony Romo, Matt Ryan, Dan Marino, Russell Wilson, Kurt Warner, Johnny Unitas, Peyton Manning, and Brett Favre all include Win-Loss records as a starter (or at least they did until you removed them), so you cannot truthfully say there is a consensus here to not include them on the player's page. Many players have them and have had them for years, and it is especially important when players have records in that category such as Tom Brady. It is not enough to simply say that he is the winningest quarterback in NFL history in his lede - readers should be able to see exactly how often he won and they should not need to reference the team's page which will incorrectly include numbers from 2000 and 2008 in that separate statistic.
Mwatz122 (talk) 13:55, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
I didn’t say call him the winningest quarterback in the lead. I said put the record in the lead and do not include it with the stats because it’s not a stat. All those pages, with the exception of I think Peyton Manning, the w/l records were recently by inexperienced editors and/or IP addresses and they were most likely added because people saw them on Tom Brady’s page and added them. Once again my main point for why is because it’s not statistic and it’s a team accomplishment. Tom Brady isn’t playing defense, returning kicks, or kicking field goals and extra points, he’s just playing quarterback. It takes more than just a quarterback to win and lose games.--Rockchalk717 17:34, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
Everyone knows that the quarterback doesn't solely contribute to whether or not his team wins on the field. It is a TEAM sport, after all. That doesn't mean that Win-Loss statistics don't matter for quarterbacks. High win percentage is a hallmark of all successful quarterbacks and is used often to judge a quarterback's place in the pantheon of the greatest to ever play the game. ESPN and other media outlets regularly use Win-Loss statistics for quarterbacks throughout their programming. Also, the coach never even steps foot onto the field for offense, defense, or special teams, yet you just admitted above that you think coach articles should list Win-Loss statistics.
Mwatz122 (talk) 23:10, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
The coach has a larger impact on the overall team success than the quarterback. A coach’s success is based solely on wins and losses. That’s why the 99% of coaches that get fired finished the season with a losing record. Just because a quarterback wins games doesn’t mean they were a successful quarterback. A quarterback can put up big numbers and lose as well as s quarterback put up garbage numbers and win (Troy Aikman, Terry Bradshaw). Let me put it this way to disprove the point you just attempted to make. A team goes 4-12 three straight seasons but the quarterback puts up decent numbers. Who’s gonna be more likely to lose their job, the coach or the quarterback? Additionally you just contradicted your argument, you acknowledged it’s a team sport and that the QB doesn’t solely contribute to wins and losses when earlier you said “Win-Loss record as a starter is not exactly a team statistic though” And if they aren’t solely responsible for wins and losses, then why should they be included with statistics the quarterback is solely responsible for?
Can someone please chime in on this. This has turned into a further debate and not a resolution for our edit dispute. It’s defeating the whole reason I had them post here. I’ve made my points the other editor has made their points, we just need someone else on this. Thank you!!--Rockchalk717 01:18, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
For what's it's worth, Pro-Football-Reference.com includes QB won-loss records in their passing statistics tables. See: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:59, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
Well I think that settles it. This entire site is built around providing football statistics, and obviously they consider it to be important enough to include on each quarterback's page (listed as QBrec for each season). That is as much validation as I need. Thanks!
Mwatz122 (talk) 05:31, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
One person chiming in doesn’t “settle it”. That’s not how this process works at all. @Jweiss11: what is your personal opinion on this. Saying they add doesn’t exactly settle much. It doesn’t provide your opinion.--Rockchalk717 02:11, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
Rockchalk717 is correct that my chiming in doesn't settle the matter. However, given that Pro-Football-Reference.com, a standard-bearer for NFL stats, includes QB won-loss records in their passing statistics tables and given that we have List of National Football League career quarterback wins leaders, it's reasonable and appropriate to includes QB win-loss records in these stat tables. Nonetheless, this still doesn't "settle" the matter, as it would be best have a few more editors weight in. Jweiss11 (talk) 15:58, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
My issue here is that Rockchalk717 originally said this wasn't about personal opinion but now he is asking for personal opinions. His reasons for removing the QB Win-Loss statistics in the first place were because he said there is a consensus to not include them on the player's page and also because he doesn't believe they are real statistics. The first point is flat out wrong - I can easily find dozens of notable quarterbacks who have Win-Loss statistics on their page and have had them for years so if anything there is a consensus that they SHOULD be included on the player's page. The second point is also clearly wrong - how can you say it's not a real statistic when a reputed site such as Pro-Football-Reference.com includes QB Win-Loss statistics on player pages? None of the points Rockchalk717 originally made are holding any water so now he is just hoping for people to chime in with their personal opinions when he started this whole discussion on the basis that this ISN'T about personal opinions. He's changing his argument because his argument is not supported. Mwatz122 (talk) 17:02, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
This is indeed a question of editor opinion. The goal is to form a consensus opinion that's informed by relevant facts. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:06, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
I’m not changing my argument at all I don’t know how you’re getting that. I had you post here with the intent to get other opinions to solve our edit dispute and I asked for Jweiss’s opinion because you decided the issue was resolved when Jweiss said pro football reference included quarterbacks records.--Rockchalk717 15:00, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Order of the categories in an NFL bio[edit]

User :@Jweiss11: is changing the order of the categories defined in existing NFL biographies from chronological to alphabetical. To me, it makes it more difficult to read and analyze. Please advise if there is a standard to register them.Makers267 (talk) 17:45, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

There's not really a definitive way to organize categories per MOS:CATORDER. I prefer chronological but others prefer alphabetical. Eagles 24/7 (C) 18:13, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
An NFL-specific standard, if there is indeed one, for ordering categories isn't much of a solution given large overlap between NFL biographies and other project areas. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:01, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
How about polling the issue at the NFL and College football project talk pages? Cbl62 (talk) 03:48, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
We could, but even an American football-specific standard runs into the same sort of problems that an NFL-specific standard would. A better place to discuss and/or poll might be Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:54, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

List of career achievements by Brett Favre and List of career achievements by Peyton Manning[edit]

List of career achievements by Brett Favre and List of career achievements by Peyton Manning seem to be the only List of career achievements... articles in WP:NFL (outside of the redirect List of career achievements by Vince Young). Full disclosure, I created the first one of these (the Brett Favre one) 11 years ago. However, in my opinion these articles, especially Favre's, are a mess (743 refs may be the most I have ever seen). Most of the "achievements" in this article are trivia and are so specific that they really aren't notable (i.e. records that have been surpassed, records by stadium, "Personal bests", etc). These article's really suffer from recentism, especially when they were playing and breaking new records. If you were to create a similar type article for Don Hutson (or any other historic player), 90% of these so-called "records" wouldn't be included as either non-notable or purely trivia. I was thinking of AFDing them. But my track record isn't great (I lean deletionist I guess), so I figured a discussion here would be best before AFD. All that said, if these articles are still worthy of inclusion, I think WP:NFL needs to define clear criteria for inclusion (i.e. who is notable enough to have a List of career achievements...) and what records are notable enough to be included. The way the Brett Favre article is set-up, maintenance, verifiability, and accuracy are very difficult. In my opinion, Brett Favre accurately captures most, if not all of, his major achievements that are truly notable and relevant (MVPs, Super Bowls, 1st place records, well-known records broke, etc). These achievement articles just become a sports trivia page and should be discouraged and/or deleted. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 18:21, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Adding List of career achievements by Drew Brees to this list. Eagles 24/7 (C) 19:02, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Thanks Eagles247, didn't notice that one! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:23, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

First thing that jumps out is WP:NOTSTATS, especially ones based on stats site queries, which is essentially WP:OR on primary sources (e.g. stats databases).—Bagumba (talk) 10:55, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Bagumba and Eagles247, would you support an AFD on these articles? I think we can all agree that they need to be cleaned up if they are retained (especially the Favre article), but I am trying to gauge whether they are needed in the first place. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:00, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Without looking into it further, WP:AFDISNOTCLEANUP is my initial concern. You'll need to argue why it's not notable per WP:LISTN, not that a lot of content needs to be cut. There could be WP:OTHERSTUFF people you need to convince. I'm not decided yet that it should stay, but those are some arguments that will need to be countered.—Bagumba (talk) 16:14, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Counting of League Championships from 1966-69[edit]

There has been a dispute on the Minnesota Vikings article talk page about whether to count the Vikings as having won 1 league championship (the 1969 NFL title) or 0 league championships. My personal opinion is that it should be 0, since that is consistent with other NFL team articles, such as the Kansas City Chiefs, Indianapolis Colts, and Oakland Raiders. Most people (and most sources) would not count the Vikings as having won a championship in that year, since they lost the Super Bowl to the Chiefs. This has been an ongoing back-and-forth debate/edit war on the Vikings article for over a decade, and I want to establish a consensus once and for all. I have come to this page to establish a consensus on how NFL titles are counted on Wikipedia- should titles be counted if the NFL/AFL championship was won but the Super Bowl was lost? If not, the Vikings page should be changed. If they are counted, the Chiefs, Colts, and Raiders pages need to be changed. Vavent (talk) 03:08, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

For the information of other contributors, this was discussed at length back in April at Talk:Minnesota_Vikings#or...PeeJay 11:17, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Booth Lusteg#Researching Booth Lusteg[edit]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Booth Lusteg#Researching Booth Lusteg. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:09, 15 October 2019 (UTC)